Latest / GH Connects Lounge / Hayden Mullins Ep3: One Red Card Cost Me the FA Cup Final

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Hayden Mullins Ep3: One Red Card Cost Me the FA Cup Final · GH Connects Lounge

• 0:04
  Hayden Mullins, over 600 appearances in English football.
• 0:08
  Crystal Palace, West Ham, Portsmouth, Reading, Birmingham City and Notts County.
• 0:14
  But there's one place I want to start.
• 0:16
  And that's a quote from you.
• 0:19
  So growing up as a young kid in Reading, I hadn't dreamt that I'd make it as a professional football player.
• 0:25
  What on earth did you think you were going to be?
• 0:27
  No, very true quote.
• 0:30
  I don't know.
• 0:30
  I think I was one of them kids that didn't really believe in...
• 0:33
  my talent and belief that I was, you know, good enough to be on the TV.
• 0:38
  You know, when you're younger and you're watching it.
• 0:41
  I remember watching John Barnes on TV and Paul Gascoigne and real, real top, top players, you know.
• 0:48
  Watched the FA Cup finals that were quite rare and stuff like that.
• 0:51
  Because football wasn't...
• 0:53
  it wasn't as available as it is now.
• 0:55
  So I think those guys growing up, I saw them as sort of superstars and, you know, a little bit later on seeing like Ian Wright sort of bogling on the football pitch and things like that were unbelievable.
• 1:07
  So
• 1:07
  I don't know.
• 1:08
  I don't think you can ever see yourself in that company, if you know what I mean.
• 1:12
  So I think I was one who grew up and I was really hard working as a player.
• 1:19
  I put myself around.
• 1:22
  And then, yeah, I don't know if just fell into it is the word.
• 1:25
  I think it's something I always did from the age of eight.
• 1:27
  I remember my dad taking me to my first training session when I was...
• 1:32
  It's been seven.
• 1:33
  And we actually got there late, but I was too young to play for...
• 1:37
  It was the under-nines.
• 1:37
  They didn't have an under-eight.
• 1:39
  I was too young to play for the team.
• 1:41
  But he said, look, bring him along anyway, and we'll see how he gets on.
• 1:43
  And I ended up...
• 1:45
  getting in the team.
• 1:45
  So I was playing against bigger boys my whole career, my whole life, sorry, growing up.
• 1:50
  And I had to battle all the time.
• 1:52
  So I think that was me as a player and sort of really sort of molded me who I was.
• 1:56
  And I never really saw myself as this like player who could go on and play on the TV.
• 2:03
  So yeah, that's where that one comes from.
• 2:05
  So not a flashy player.
• 2:07
  No, I've never, you know, I've never, it's weird because when you play, you never see yourself playing.
• 2:14
  Do you know what I mean?
• 2:15
  You're always, you know, it's always you.
• 2:16
  And I do remember the first time I saw myself training and playing was, I think it was a TV crew came down to Crystal Palace at our Centre of Excellence.
• 2:26
  We trained one day a week, which was a Monday.
• 2:28
  And it was on the, it was on the news and I actually saw myself like training and I did this thing where the ball dropped and I flicked it over someone's head and did something and I thought, that was all right.
• 2:39
  But I never saw myself as that type of player.
• 2:42
  Yeah.
• 2:42
  So it was, it was interesting the first time I actually saw myself play and think, you know, actually, yeah, that was good.
• 2:48
  Like flicked over someone's head, got the other side, dropped it down, moved the ball and then, and then passed it and thought, you know, I look pretty good.
• 2:55
  So,
• 2:56
  I don't think you ever get to see yourself play.
• 2:58
  It's only when you get a little bit older and you get, well, now I think the kids from, from definitely from nine, 10, I've got VOs on the side of the pitch.
• 3:06
  So they get to see themselves play.
• 3:07
  But, you know, back then it was pretty rare.
• 3:09
  So you never, you never quite see yourself as that, that type of player.
• 3:13
  Yeah.
• 3:13
  Yeah, for sure.
• 3:14
  So who inspired you growing up?
• 3:17
  Well, I think I've come from quite a close family, which is really good.
• 3:21
  I wouldn't have got into football if it wasn't for my dad.
• 3:24
  I used to play just with friends up the park and stuff, and you'd play against the bigger lads, and I would always compete and run around and be that little pest, probably, that they would try and kick me down and stuff.
• 3:35
  So it was my dad definitely who's always sort of pushed me and got me into football, and he pushes me quite a bit.
• 3:42
  Even now managing, he will say about the team playing on Saturday and say, you should have done this and why did you do that for?
• 3:48
  My dad's brilliant.
• 3:50
  He definitely would inspire me in games and stuff when I got there.
• 3:53
  So I definitely would say my dad and my mum.
• 3:56
  But player-wise, I probably would say like Paul Ince.
• 4:00
  players who I saw sort of in my position and could relate to and see him sort of for a Manchester United, he was for years was one of their top players, you know.
• 4:11
  So, you know, on the field, it definitely was Paul Ince, Ian Wright, people like that, John Barnes.
• 4:18
  But family-wise, yeah, my dad was the main one.
• 4:22
  What about support then?
• 4:24
  Who did you support as a kid?
• 4:26
  I supported Tottenham.
• 4:27
  I supported Tottenham Hotspur.
• 4:28
  Okay.
• 4:30
  I think back then they were getting in finals and semifinals and winning FA Cups and stuff.
• 4:34
  And they were never winning leagues, but Paul Gascoigne, Gary Lineker, that team was the team that I really liked.
• 4:42
  My brother supported my older brother.
• 4:44
  I've got an older brother who supported Liverpool.
• 4:46
  So we'd clash a little bit there because Liverpool would win leagues and sort of Tottenham would win cups.
• 4:52
  But yeah, it was Spurs.
• 4:53
  I was sort of drawn to the kit.
• 4:55
  I love the kit, the white kit with the blue shorts and stuff like that.
• 4:58
  The Holston Pills sponsor.
• 5:01
  Gaza was, like I say, main man.
• 5:03
  And yeah, I was really drawn to that team.
• 5:06
  Do you remember the first game you watched as a kid?
• 5:11
  Oh, yeah.
• 5:15
  I do remember.
• 5:16
  I remember watching football on TV.
• 5:17
  I can't remember who was playing, but I do remember watching it as a young, young kid.
• 5:20
  But I think my first real sort of memory of a game was probably the 86th World Cup.
• 5:26
  I think I remember watching that on TV upstairs when I was really young.
• 5:31
  I think I remember watching England.
• 5:32
  England were playing someone.
• 5:35
  So probably 86th World Cup, because it's just stood in my mind, you know, the World Cup.
• 5:39
  It was completely different to anything I'd seen with the...
• 5:42
  American R Stadium and how big it was and, you know, what it looked like.
• 5:45
  It was probably that sort of drew me into it.
• 5:48
  You know, I must have been seven at the time, I think.
• 5:50
  But, yeah, that was my first.
• 5:52
  What about in person?
• 5:55
  Oh.
• 5:56
  In person, would have been Reading.
• 5:59
  Man used to play at Elm Park years ago.
• 6:02
  We, as a young player, I used to play for Reading for the district.
• 6:06
  I don't think you get it anymore, but you had your district, which was Reading, and then your county, which was Berkshire, that you'd represent from the schools.
• 6:13
  That was pretty big when you were young.
• 6:15
  Then if you represented Reading in the district, you'd get like a season booklet for games.
• 6:20
  So probably, yeah, I was probably...
• 6:23
  10 or 11 at the time, probably going to watch Reading.
• 6:26
  So that's probably my earliest sort of live games, which was probably pretty late, yeah.
• 6:31
  And in today's world, clubs are signing, you mentioned it then, clubs are signing players from around about eight or nine.
• 6:37
  Yeah, yeah.
• 6:38
  You didn't start till you were 17.
• 6:40
  So what was that like coming into the game at effectively a late age?
• 6:47
  Yeah, I mean, for me, I actually sort of,
• 6:52
  I actually was pretty late, but I joined an academy when I was 11.
• 6:56
  So that is now in this day and age is pretty late.
• 7:01
  I think they're picking up at five, six now.
• 7:03
  And then I joined Crystal.
• 7:04
  Then, sorry, I left school and went to the YTS scheme at 16, 17.
• 7:09
  I think now, I think clubs have got to be careful.
• 7:13
  I mean, you know, some of my background now in coaching is from the academy, the under-21s.
• 7:19
  And what you see sometimes, and it's sad to see, is you see really good players who have fallen out of love with football.
• 7:28
  I think from the age of five, six, you ask them how long they've been in the academy and some of them are seven, eight years old.
• 7:33
  And you've got to remember that the structure and the coaching that they get seems good.
• 7:39
  But when you've been doing it from the age of eight to 18, that's 10 years you've gone through already.
• 7:44
  And it's the pressure.
• 7:45
  You've got to get in the team.
• 7:46
  You've got to stay in the team.
• 7:47
  Are you going to get retained after that year?
• 7:49
  What about the next year?
• 7:50
  Are you going to get retained?
• 7:50
  Are you going to get this contract?
• 7:52
  So at that age, they're going through a whole lot and they've almost had a mini career themselves.
• 7:59
  And I think we've got to be careful and mindful that we don't overcoach as a coach.
• 8:04
  We don't coach the player out of the player, if that makes sense.
• 8:08
  I mean, you know, sometimes I see coaches and they treat players like mini robots and you stay here and don't move until the ball comes and you think, right, it's 11.
• 8:16
  You know, at 11 years old, I was playing and enjoying football and freedom and expressing myself and trying different things.
• 8:24
  And.
• 8:25
  Now, I do think we overcoach.
• 8:28
  I think especially at younger age groups, I think coaches can be guilty of putting them in a structure too early, telling them to do certain things when these boys are developing.
• 8:40
  Sometimes these players are better than the coaches that are actually coaching.
• 8:43
  And it's mad that these guys are telling them to do something different to what they're actually doing.
• 8:48
  they actually can do you know so i think we've got to be careful with young young players is sometimes we can over coach um and sometimes you can you can coach the love out of the game you know which which is which is sad to see sometimes yeah that's interesting to hear that it's it's kind of like that raw talent we're missing now but do you remember the first game you well the game you were scouted in
• 9:11
  Do you know the game you were starting to do?
• 9:13
  Yeah, it was... Like I said, the story before where I went to a club and I was the youngest one by a year, so a whole school year, I was below some of the lads and probably giving up a year and whatever in age.
• 9:30
  But I would probably, from the age of eight, like I said, to 11, I would play in my Sunday league team.
• 9:36
  So I'm always playing against the older boys.
• 9:38
  And I do remember one of the...
• 9:40
  It was us, a team called Spencer's Wood, my team, and another team called Manor Colts.
• 9:44
  And we would always battle out for the league and we'd be up, and Manor were a good team.
• 9:49
  And the manager of Manor is a guy called Jeff Warner, who, he was a Crystal Palace coach at the time.
• 9:57
  And back then it was like you train once a week for Crystal Palace.
• 10:02
  It was a centre of excellence.
• 10:03
  It wasn't as professional as it is now, but he was a coach for the Centre of Excellence Development Centre in Bracknell.
• 10:10
  And he managed this team, Man of Colts.
• 10:11
  So I think the story was he was chatting to my coach and he was asking about another couple of players, asking if they'd like to come for a trial.
• 10:21
  And he didn't ask about me, but my coach was like, well, what about Hayden?
• 10:25
  And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's okay.
• 10:27
  But, and then my coach, his name was Harry Robinson, great guy.
• 10:33
  And he said, well, listen, Hayden's a year younger than the rest of the boys.
• 10:36
  And when he heard that, he was like, really?
• 10:39
  And he said, yeah.
• 10:40
  He said, like, Hayden's a year younger.
• 10:41
  So why didn't you have a look at Hayden in his own age group?
• 10:45
  And he said, yeah, really interesting.
• 10:46
  So...
• 10:47
  That's when I got invited down.
• 10:48
  I don't know the exact date, but I got invited to a trial and then got in and stayed in.
• 10:55
  So how did you find out then?
• 10:57
  So how did, how did they go about telling you that?
• 10:59
  So my coach came and he said, listen, I've spoke to the guy at Crystal Palace.
• 11:03
  They train in Bracknell, which was, it's 15, 20 minutes from Reading where I'm, where I'm from and where I was born.
• 11:09
  And he said, look, they'd like to invite you down.
• 11:11
  It's at this address, go down and on Monday and meet Jeff, um, went down there, met Jeff Warner, great guy, a really good coach, Jeff.
• 11:19
  Um,
• 11:20
  Yeah, and if it wasn't for Jeff, then I wouldn't be sat here talking to you now.
• 11:24
  Yeah, back then it was different.
• 11:28
  You'd go on a Monday.
• 11:30
  It's mad to think that players and kids now, they'll do three, four nights a week and then play on a Saturday.
• 11:36
  Back then we were doing like a Monday night.
• 11:38
  That was it.
• 11:38
  Yeah, I mean, that sounds like quite an informal route.
• 11:42
  It was like a Monday night, once a week.
• 11:43
  Then you got a bit older.
• 11:44
  It was twice a week.
• 11:45
  It was a Monday and a Friday.
• 11:46
  Then you'd play games on a Sunday.
• 11:48
  There was a different centre for Crystal Palace in Mitcham and we'd get together and the best players would all play on a Sunday.
• 11:55
  But yeah, it was pretty, you know, I got invited down there.
• 11:58
  I do remember I used to hate going on a Monday.
• 12:00
  I used to go to Crystal Palace training now, and it was for an hour or two.
• 12:04
  And I just, yeah, it was like my mates were outside playing at the park, running around playing, kicking a ball.
• 12:09
  Then after getting in the car, drive up to Bracknell and train for two hours and do turns and turn again and then clip a ball.
• 12:16
  And I'm like, yeah.
• 12:18
  But yeah, it's something that was...
• 12:23
  It was a bit of a chance meeting, if I'm being honest.
• 12:26
  I don't think if Harry mentioned it, I don't know if I'd be sat here now.
• 12:29
  That's crazy.
• 12:31
  So at 17 then, did you think your opportunity had passed?
• 12:35
  No, no, no.
• 12:36
  I think what happened with me with my journey is I got accepted for a YTS.
• 12:42
  So when you get to the end of your school year, you get to 15, 16, like now where the kids are leaving school.
• 12:49
  And when I said, like, I didn't believe that I could make it,
• 12:53
  I thought I was okay, but I never thought I was the best player in the group.
• 12:59
  So then decisions come up.
• 13:01
  I got offered a scholar.
• 13:03
  So I had to leave school at 16, move up to Crystal Palace.
• 13:07
  move into a house with a family that I didn't know.
• 13:09
  And everything's different.
• 13:11
  You know, you move from Reading to Croydon and it's like a completely different place.
• 13:15
  You know, I'm in Croydon on my own.
• 13:18
  And you have to do it.
• 13:19
  And you're getting £30 a week, I think it was back then, you get for your YTS scheme.
• 13:25
  So I got into that.
• 13:26
  And like I say, when years ago, it was like a first year group and a second year group.
• 13:32
  So your first year YTS group would just left school, which was my age group, 16, 17.
• 13:38
  And then the next year were the second years who were the first years.
• 13:41
  And generally back then, the second years would play and we'd play on a Saturday.
• 13:46
  We'd train every day, play on a Saturday.
• 13:49
  But there was only, I think myself and maybe Clinton Morrison, who had a really good career as well.
• 13:59
  I think we were the only two first years in the team that used to play for the Scholars.
• 14:04
  So even then I didn't think, do you know what?
• 14:07
  Yeah, I'm good enough to go and play for the first team.
• 14:08
  You'd see the first team train, but I'd never think, yeah, I'm good enough to go over there and train with them.
• 14:14
  It's only when you start pre-season, which is really tough, and you get into the full-time program, then you grow a little bit and your body gets a bit bigger.
• 14:24
  I was always quite muscular, so I must have been pretty...
• 14:29
  What's the word I'm looking for?
• 14:31
  Pretty big and pretty sort of already grown, if you know what I mean.
• 14:37
  So then, yeah, my performances, I would play centre-back.
• 14:40
  I'm not the biggest.
• 14:41
  I learned a lot from a guy playing next to me called Mark Garland, who used to head the ball.
• 14:45
  So I learned how to head the ball.
• 14:46
  And my youth team coach, the guy Peter Nicholas, who's actually from Newport.
• 14:51
  Really?
• 14:51
  Yeah.
• 14:52
  So when I got this job, he rang me and he lives around, he lives Cardiff way.
• 14:56
  A really good man, tough man.
• 14:58
  He really taught me the actual reality of football, what it's like.
• 15:01
  This is your job now.
• 15:03
  Do you know what I mean?
• 15:04
  You're getting paid to keep the ball out the back of the net.
• 15:07
  If that means the ball's there and you've got to put your head in and head it, you head it.
• 15:10
  If the ball's there and you've got to head it and someone's, you head it.
• 15:14
  You tackle, you block, you know.
• 15:16
  And when you've got the ball, you have to be reliable.
• 15:17
  And it's when...
• 15:19
  Leaving school, you think, yeah, football's going to be brilliant.
• 15:21
  I'm really going to enjoy it.
• 15:22
  I'm going to play football every day.
• 15:23
  I'm going to be my mates.
• 15:25
  And then it's an actual job.
• 15:27
  No, this is your job.
• 15:30
  You get paid to keep the ball out the back of the net.
• 15:32
  So you have to put your body on the line.
• 15:34
  You have to.
• 15:34
  So it's completely different to what you actually think it is, to what is actually going on day to day as a footballer.
• 15:41
  I learned...
• 15:42
  I learned pretty early.
• 15:43
  It's a tough world.
• 15:45
  You have to stand up.
• 15:46
  You have to be reliable.
• 15:48
  You have to be consistent.
• 15:49
  You have to be brave.
• 15:49
  You have to be all these things.
• 15:50
  And I learned it pretty early when I was young.
• 15:53
  And like I say, the first six months, I actually hated it.
• 15:58
  Really?
• 15:58
  I hated it.
• 15:59
  I was like...
• 16:00
  My mates had just left school and they were all getting paid like £200 a week and they were doing internships there and they were going out on a Friday and I'm sat on a Friday and we're getting run around the train.
• 16:10
  I had to go in and do jobs.
• 16:11
  I'd have to clean the floor before I left.
• 16:13
  I'd have to do boots.
• 16:14
  It was like, I'm getting £30 a week.
• 16:18
  I hated it.
• 16:18
  I absolutely hated it.
• 16:19
  And then the games kicked in.
• 16:21
  And then, yeah, I enjoyed it more.
• 16:23
  You know, I'd want to go home and see family because I was from a real close family.
• 16:27
  So I'd want to go home and see family on a Saturday.
• 16:29
  You'd have to come back on a Monday morning on the first train out.
• 16:33
  And that stuff was tough, you know, being away from home and family and stuff like that.
• 16:37
  And then how tough the actual, the role was, was, yeah, a bit of an eye-opener.
• 16:43
  Yeah.
• 16:43
  Yet just two years later, you make your senior appearance for Crystal Palace.
• 16:47
  Yeah, it's mad.
• 16:48
  Yeah, um...
• 16:50
  Yeah, my friend, good friend of mine, Clinton, he made his debut before me in the Premier League.
• 16:56
  We were at Palace in the Premier League, been relegated last game of the season.
• 16:58
  He was on the bench and came on.
• 17:01
  So I think that motivated me in the off-season to go, right, you know, if Clinton can do it, then, you know, I've played with him for two years now in the youth team.
• 17:09
  And we had a successful youth team.
• 17:11
  We had two years where...
• 17:13
  We made the FA Youth Cup final, semi-final, sorry, in the first year.
• 17:16
  We made the final in the second year.
• 17:17
  I was one of the second year scholars, one of the older ones.
• 17:21
  So we made the final.
• 17:21
  It was on Sky Sports.
• 17:23
  It was quite, it still is quite a big thing.
• 17:25
  They put it on TV.
• 17:28
  And then we had a new manager.
• 17:29
  We got relegated.
• 17:30
  Terry Venables came in.
• 17:32
  And I remember the off-season, I remember working so hard, just like running and doing as much running and fitness work so I could be ready for when I went back.
• 17:40
  And, yeah, I went back in good shape, was in a good place.
• 17:45
  New manager.
• 17:47
  And I impressed him.
• 17:48
  I was actually a defender.
• 17:50
  I used to play like centre-back in the middle of a three.
• 17:53
  It's mad to think though now.
• 17:55
  And then I was on the bench.
• 17:56
  We were in a pre-season game against Gillingham and a midfielder went down and he looked round and he just said, are you ready?
• 18:02
  And I was like, and he looked and I said, he said, yeah, yeah.
• 18:06
  So got ready.
• 18:07
  He said, you're going to midfield, play next to him, tackle, back it up, went to get the ball.
• 18:12
  And I played in midfield and yeah, that was it.
• 18:14
  I stayed in midfield that whole pre-season, started the season in midfield, so.
• 18:19
  Yeah, I think the hard work paid off and I think I realised that, you know, I've got one chance of this and I've got to try and give it a good go.
• 18:28
  And yeah, midfield wasn't exactly what I was expecting, but he didn't play in a back three and I don't think he saw me big enough to be centre back.
• 18:38
  pushing me in midfield and definitely saw something in me that I didn't know I had.
• 18:43
  It was definitely a good decision because one year later, you were named player of the year for Crystal Palace.
• 18:48
  You made four of the appearances.
• 18:51
  What did that mean to you?
• 18:53
  Yeah, things like that are brilliant.
• 18:56
  It's recognition from fans and stuff, something that I hadn't had before, coming from the youth team.
• 19:02
  I used to go and watch the first team a lot.
• 19:04
  You used to have to turn up at the first team stadium, do jobs, so you'd get to see the atmosphere and everything.
• 19:08
  So being out there is different.
• 19:10
  It's nerve-wracking.
• 19:12
  Like I say, you've got a job to do.
• 19:14
  A lot of the game, which really I thought was weird, is that
• 19:18
  you don't really remember.
• 19:19
  It's like a blur and a haze.
• 19:21
  It goes pretty quick.
• 19:22
  There's so much going on.
• 19:23
  There's so much you've got to retain in your head and so many different jobs you've got on set pieces, wide free kicks, throw-ons, all these kinds of things you've got.
• 19:31
  The game goes really quick.
• 19:33
  You just got to concentrate as much as you can.
• 19:36
  And I think like you say, that season for me was a big one.
• 19:41
  It was really good to see fans that enjoyed and appreciated my role in it, which was really good.
• 19:47
  Now, at this point, did you realise how good you were?
• 19:50
  Because you've mentioned a few times that you didn't.
• 19:52
  That's a good question, that is.
• 19:56
  I thought the year before, when we got in the FA Youth Cup final, I do remember sort of the second year and we were walking in a group, a couple of us were walking and talking.
• 20:05
  And honestly, we were walking and talking, and then we were talking about players, and they were talking about best players in the academy.
• 20:12
  As you always think, strikers and stuff.
• 20:13
  Like you say, I was a defender, and one of the lads was like, yeah, he's right here.
• 20:16
  And I was like, okay.
• 20:18
  And then that season, I was scoring goals from centre-back, and...
• 20:22
  I was starting to grow into a really good player, quite comfortable in games.
• 20:25
  My fitness levels were really good.
• 20:27
  I was enjoying football.
• 20:29
  And when I was playing at centre-back and sort of running into high areas and finishing goals off, and that's when I kind of understood, yeah, actually, yeah, I'm all right.
• 20:38
  I'm one of the better players in the group.
• 20:40
  Then, you know, your confidence grows and who you are as a person grows.
• 20:43
  So I knew then pretty much that I was probably the next one.
• 20:51
  But like you say, when I got the player of the year, probably, yeah, I did think, I did have the belief that, yeah, I was probably one of the, not one of the better players in the group, because there were a lot of really good seniors in there, but I realized I was a good player.
• 21:05
  I was in the 21s as well.
• 21:06
  I'd got in around the England under 21 group as well.
• 21:09
  So I kind of had an understanding of where,
• 21:13
  where I was going, if you know what I mean, in my career, what it looked like.
• 21:18
  Because in that group, you meet up with, like Emil Heskey was in it, and Kieran Dyer, Frank Lampard, Jamie Carragher, Jodie Morris.
• 21:26
  It was like top, top player, like all our age group, the best ones playing on Sky in the Premier League.
• 21:30
  So I was in the squad, didn't play many games, only played three games, I think, for England 21s.
• 21:36
  But you quickly understand, okay, this is sort of,
• 21:42
  where you're operating in, you know?
• 21:44
  And by 22, you were named captain of Crystal Palace.
• 21:48
  Why do you think they trusted you at such a young age with the armband?
• 21:55
  I don't know.
• 21:55
  I think back then, I'm a young kid.
• 22:01
  I'm immature.
• 22:03
  So there was no way I had leadership skills to lead grown men in that dressing room.
• 22:08
  There were people, I'm sure if I remember right, Andy Linegan would have been in that dressing room, played for Arsenal, he's won League Cups, his 30-year-old, Dane Austin, Dougie Friedman.
• 22:19
  There was a lot of really good senior pros.
• 22:22
  I think the only reason maybe is probably because of my value.
• 22:27
  Maybe they wanted me to feel like I was a part of the club and felt valued as a first-team member, if you know what I mean.
• 22:36
  I think that's probably one of the reasons why I maybe got it.
• 22:41
  I eventually grew into someone who...
• 22:44
  Develop leadership skills.
• 22:45
  By the time I'd left Crystal Palace, I definitely had that.
• 22:49
  Like I say, being captain is a role of a group of men and young men is one that you can't take lightly.
• 22:57
  So, yeah, I think that was probably the reasons why, like I say, I wasn't the most vocal in the group by any stretch of the imagination.
• 23:07
  What type of captain would you say you were?
• 23:10
  I think one who was...
• 23:15
  Performance based.
• 23:16
  I think for me and I think my manager probably knew that if I had the armband, it probably got the best performance out of me as a player.
• 23:26
  So I think it was probably one of the things, one, you're getting the performance out of me and two, I think you're trying to keep players and make them feel valued as well.
• 23:37
  Like I say, myself and Clinton were in that group.
• 23:39
  That Crystal Palace at the time was a bit turbulent.
• 23:42
  We had money problems.
• 23:45
  And then we came out of it.
• 23:46
  Simon Jordan eventually bought the club.
• 23:50
  And then myself and Clinton were the ones who had a value.
• 23:52
  I think previous to that, though, I think when I was, I want to say when I was 20 years old, so maybe a year or two before, 20 or 21, Leicester City actually made a bid for me.
• 24:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:05
  It must have been around the same time it was because Simon Jordan was there.
• 24:09
  And Leicester made a bid.
• 24:12
  They made, I think it was £3 million at the time.
• 24:14
  They were in the Premier League.
• 24:16
  Peter Taylor was their manager.
• 24:19
  And Peter Taylor was my under-21s coach for England, so he knew me pretty well.
• 24:23
  And they made a bid.
• 24:25
  And Crystal Palace turned it down.
• 24:28
  I had a chat with the chairman and the manager at the time.
• 24:31
  It was decided they didn't want to do the deal and I think signed a new deal after that at Crystal Palace and I think that's one of the reasons why I probably ended up getting sort of the armband and bits and pieces like that.
• 24:42
  Yeah, because when you think about it, 17 you're spotted, 19 years old, you're making your debut, 20 years old, your player of the year, and 22, your captain.
• 24:51
  So it's a pretty crazy trajectory on that.
• 24:57
  So after six years at Palace, when you were 24 years old, you left.
• 25:03
  So you went to West Ham.
• 25:05
  What did that feel like?
• 25:06
  How hard was it to leave?
• 25:08
  Yeah, so the Palace one to leave was really tough.
• 25:13
  It's always hard because it feels like home and it's like leaving anywhere where you know everyone and you're a part of the furniture.
• 25:20
  To leave is always a tough decision, always is.
• 25:25
  I think there's a couple of factors in the reason why I wanted to go in the end.
• 25:31
  I remember, so before that, we rewind quite a bit.
• 25:35
  I think when I was 19, 20, I might have got, when I got the Player of the Year award, we had a young lad come on loan.
• 25:43
  I always remember it because I've gone into the room and we took a couple of players from Arsenal on loan.
• 25:49
  and one of them was a left back so I've gone in expecting to see this big because back then with Wenger they'd had Patrick Vieira and Manu Petit and big players expecting to see this six foot left back who we needed at the time in the dressing room so I've gone in, got changed, no one's in there
• 26:05
  Well, there's someone in there, but it's like a small guy in the corner and stuff.
• 26:08
  So I've gone back out.
• 26:09
  I'm like, where's this left back from Arsenal that we signed?
• 26:11
  And he's come out.
• 26:13
  And it was Ashley Cole.
• 26:15
  So Ashley's probably five foot nine, five foot eight, like thin, wiry.
• 26:22
  He used to train with his hands in his jumper.
• 26:27
  And I just remember watching him and training, just thinking, and then we got into a game, honestly, it seemed nothing like it.
• 26:33
  He would play the whole left side on his own.
• 26:35
  He would attack on his own, knock the ball around, go the other way, cross it, come back, defend.
• 26:39
  Couldn't beat him.
• 26:41
  It was a machine, you know.
• 26:42
  And then the next season, Ash got in Arsenal's first team.
• 26:46
  And I saw him playing in the FA Cup final and stuff.
• 26:48
  And it was like, you know.
• 26:50
  And it was a couple of seasons after I saw him and he was like, we were talking and I saw him out and we were down the chat.
• 26:57
  He was like, how are you still at Palace?
• 26:58
  He was like, when I was there, he was like, you were like the main guy, blah, blah, blah.
• 27:04
  And it hit me, do you know what I mean?
• 27:05
  And I'm thinking, this guy's playing in the Champions League.
• 27:08
  He's walking out in the Premier League.
• 27:09
  He's winning titles and stuff and shared a dressing room with Ash.
• 27:12
  Brilliant guy, love him to death.
• 27:14
  But it was like one of them moments where it's like someone slaps you in the face almost and goes, right, you know, you've got this talent, but what are you doing sort of thing.
• 27:23
  And I remember just going back, like working really hard.
• 27:26
  My contract was coming to an end at Palace.
• 27:28
  And...
• 27:29
  Palace win the championship.
• 27:30
  West Ham had just come down from the Premier League at the time.
• 27:33
  They were in the championship, but their squad was like, honestly, it was stocked.
• 27:37
  Michael Carrick was in midfield, played for England.
• 27:39
  Jermaine Defoe played for England, playing up front.
• 27:42
  David James, England goalkeeper, was in there.
• 27:45
  Thomas Repko was the Czech captain, I think, was in there.
• 27:48
  Christian Daly, Scottish captain, was in there.
• 27:50
  Ian Pearce, Rob Lee.
• 27:52
  The squad was just stocked.
• 27:55
  It was a proper Premier League squad.
• 27:58
  Yeah.
• 27:59
  Yeah, I had a decision to make.
• 28:00
  I think Palace turned down a couple of bids at the time.
• 28:03
  I was on a free transfer at the end of the season and I'd made them aware that I was going to leave.
• 28:10
  And then we eventually did the deal and, yeah, the West Ham move for me at the time probably was one that...
• 28:16
  was right.
• 28:16
  I had another offer from a Premier League club who told me to wait until the end of the season.
• 28:21
  They take me, but my decision out there and then was, you know, to join West Ham and try and help them get back in the Premier League.
• 28:28
  And like I say, I looked at the squad and instantly knew it was somewhere where I wanted to go.
• 28:35
  Yeah, so Ashley Cole influenced our move.
• 28:38
  Yeah.
• 28:39
  Ash was like, you know, I remember talking to him and he's like, are you still there?
• 28:45
  When I was there, like, you know, you were top man, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 28:48
  And Clinton had moved on, the guy who I joined, he joined Birmingham for five, six million and stuff like that.
• 28:54
  And Ash was like, yeah, like, you know, you should be in the Premier League and stuff like that.
• 28:59
  And yeah, that was the moment where it really was like, yeah.
• 29:02
  Yeah.
• 29:03
  Maybe not...
• 29:04
  Yeah, yeah.
• 29:06
  You know, I'm not saying it was easy for me at all by any stretch of the imagination.
• 29:09
  I had to work incredibly hard to get anything I got in my career.
• 29:13
  And, you know, I had to step it up and try and, you know, try and make a beeline for the Premier League.
• 29:20
  And in 2006 comes probably one of the toughest moments of your career.
• 29:26
  Yeah.
• 29:27
  Liverpool in the Premier League, 82nd minute.
• 29:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 29:31
  Luis Garcia.
• 29:32
  Yeah.
• 29:32
  Talk to me about it.
• 29:34
  Um, yeah, Luis Garcia.
• 29:39
  Yeah, no, we, like I said, joined West Ham.
• 29:43
  We get back in the Premier League.
• 29:45
  We get promoted, have a really good year.
• 29:47
  Fantastic year, our first year back.
• 29:50
  Young squad.
• 29:50
  Everyone's tipped us to go down.
• 29:53
  And we end up finishing 7th or 8th.
• 29:55
  I can't remember where it is.
• 29:56
  And we get into an FA Cup final.
• 29:58
  We have three games left.
• 30:00
  I think it was either three or two games left.
• 30:02
  Oh, it was two games left.
• 30:03
  And the third game was the FA Cup final.
• 30:05
  I remember this, like, honestly, so clear.
• 30:08
  And we were playing Liverpool.
• 30:11
  So Alan Pardew, the manager at the time, says, we're doing a talk.
• 30:15
  I don't know if it's before the game or wherever, but I always remember him saying...
• 30:19
  Nobody gets sent off because if you get a straight red card, you get a three-game ban and there's two games left and the third game is the FA Cup final.
• 30:27
  So make sure no one gets sent off, blah, blah.
• 30:29
  He said, but I want to lay a marker down.
• 30:31
  That was the exact words.
• 30:32
  We're playing these now.
• 30:33
  We've got these in the final.
• 30:34
  Let's lay a marker.
• 30:35
  Let them know that.
• 30:35
  Do you know what I mean?
• 30:38
  I always remember it.
• 30:39
  Then I remember the game, obviously.
• 30:40
  There wasn't much in the game.
• 30:42
  It was a pretty good game, high intensity.
• 30:44
  I remember, you know, I wasn't this horrible player, but Luis Garcia had the ball.
• 30:52
  He's a lot shorter than me.
• 30:54
  He sort of took a touch.
• 30:55
  I sort of read the touch come towards me and I got my sort of body and stuff in front of the ball, protected the ball, moved him out of the way sort of thing.
• 31:04
  and he was trying to clamber back and get the ball, and I was holding him off.
• 31:07
  And I just remember this sharp sort of pain in my back where he'd span round and elbowed me in my back.
• 31:14
  So my first reaction, now I should have fell on the floor.
• 31:17
  I should have fallen down and rolled around a little bit.
• 31:20
  But I turned around.
• 31:21
  My first reaction was turn around as if, say, like, what are you doing?
• 31:25
  And I went to grab him because he was, like, coming up, squaring up, and I've gone to grab him.
• 31:29
  He's pushed my hand up, and I've ended up.
• 31:32
  my hands on his throat.
• 31:32
  So he actually fell over and started doing the whole sort of rolling around stuff.
• 31:38
  And I ended up stood there and then the rest come over.
• 31:41
  Howard Webb is actually the one who's the main man now.
• 31:44
  And he's red carded both of us.
• 31:48
  my one he said was violent conduct and I was questioning how is that violent conduct?
• 31:52
  He said, you grabbed his throat.
• 31:53
  I was trying to explain that I didn't.
• 31:56
  Yeah, so I got the straight red.
• 31:58
  So did Luis Garcia.
• 32:00
  I remember in the tunnel after the Liverpool and the West Ham sort of two people got together and just said, look, let's go and see the ref and see if we can get him talking round a little bit because you're both going to miss the final and that's a massive thing.
• 32:14
  And he wasn't having it.
• 32:15
  He said, I can't do that.
• 32:16
  The report's already gone in, blah, blah, blah, which is understandable.
• 32:21
  And yeah, at the time, it was almost like, okay, you know, I'm missing the final.
• 32:25
  I remember going out and seeing family and they're like, are you okay?
• 32:28
  I'm like, yeah, I'm fine.
• 32:30
  But actually what was happening wasn't really sinking in.
• 32:33
  The game would still happen.
• 32:34
  My adrenaline was still there.
• 32:35
  I wasn't thinking about FA Cup final and stuff until like weeks later when the lads are all getting their boots designed with like the date on there versus Liverpool.
• 32:45
  Then the suits come out and then you're kind of like, yeah, pretty big deal.
• 32:49
  Like meters at a training ground every day.
• 32:51
  And yeah, you realize that it's like a pinnacle game thing that you're missing, you know,
• 33:01
  to do these things for a player like myself anyway I wasn't a top top player I was like an okay player but you know FA Cup finals League Cup finals stuff like that yeah big things
• 33:10
  when i was preparing for this i was trying to obviously check the facts on all these things and it was it was a crazy thing because you never spoke to the media at all no on this thing and it made me think did the media ever affect you in these moments because there was a lot spoken about you i read a headline the other day and it was like mulling strangles garcia yeah and i was when i watched it like that's not what happened but did these things affect you
• 33:37
  They can do.
• 33:39
  I think they can do.
• 33:40
  A lot of it's frustration when you read stuff and when you see stuff and you know it's not quite accurate or someone will have an opinion on something when you know it's not quite accurate.
• 33:51
  It can get you.
• 33:52
  When I was younger, yes, I'd get angry.
• 33:56
  You'd read certain things and get angry.
• 33:58
  Then you think, oh, is that what people think about me?
• 34:00
  And then, you know, as you get older, you grow to understand that football is probably one of the most opinionated sports out there.
• 34:07
  You walk down the road and every single person has got a different opinion on a game, tactics, situation, what the goal looked like.
• 34:15
  So many different opinions around that.
• 34:17
  VAR have got a different opinion to everyone else and then someone else's.
• 34:21
  So, you know, you kind of understand that this sport and this industry, there's a lot of different opinions.
• 34:27
  A lot of things that are wrote about players, some of them can be so wider than Mark.
• 34:33
  Some people look for, you know, it's like column inches, a lot of reporters and stuff.
• 34:38
  And you'll actually meet reporters and sometimes they goad you in, not goad you, but they'll talk to you normally.
• 34:45
  And then you talk to them like almost you think is off the record and then certain things come out.
• 34:50
  Yeah.
• 34:51
  Yeah, it can be frustrating as a player.
• 34:54
  Like I say, especially when I was younger, I did used to get angry on certain things you'd read.
• 34:57
  I don't know if you remember years ago, you used to get the old, in the paper, you'd get the ratings.
• 35:03
  Do you remember that?
• 35:03
  Do you remember the ratings?
• 35:04
  Oh, God, yeah.
• 35:06
  So you get the sun ratings or the mirror or whatever, and you get a three out of a ten.
• 35:10
  You get a three out of ten.
• 35:11
  Don't tell me you read that.
• 35:13
  But it would be everywhere in the training ground.
• 35:16
  And then your teammates would take the mic.
• 35:18
  Ah, you got a three, and you're like...
• 35:20
  I weren't that bad, was I?
• 35:21
  Did you ever have it in for those reporters?
• 35:24
  Nah, because you'd never see them.
• 35:25
  You'd never really...
• 35:27
  I wouldn't know who wrote these things.
• 35:31
  But some of the bigger ones you meet.
• 35:32
  Sometimes you do a big piece.
• 35:36
  But nah, you wouldn't meet those guys.
• 35:37
  But those things were always fun.
• 35:39
  You could use it to take the mick out of someone if someone's got three, do you know what I mean, on a Saturday?
• 35:43
  Or two if you were that bad.
• 35:44
  It was like, yeah.
• 35:45
  Or someone got star man and you're like, there's no way.
• 35:48
  There's no way.
• 35:50
  But yeah.
• 35:51
  So the day actually arrives then.
• 35:52
  So Liverpool versus West Ham, the Millennium Stadium.
• 35:56
  You can't play.
• 35:57
  What's going through your head on that day?
• 36:00
  Yeah, that was tough.
• 36:01
  That day was tough.
• 36:03
  I think for me, I'm pretty, pretty calm natured anyway.
• 36:08
  I'm pretty relaxed as a person.
• 36:09
  I don't really get too high and too, too low with things.
• 36:13
  I think I'm,
• 36:15
  I think the night before, I was okay, the game, and there was a couple more players, and we'd all travelled down together.
• 36:22
  I remember actually asking Pardew for some time off when the boys were preparing and stuff for the game, and he said, no, no, I want you to be part of it because you will understand this is a big occasion.
• 36:33
  And it actually was, to be fair, but...
• 36:35
  I think the worst part is training, knowing that.
• 36:38
  Do you know what?
• 36:38
  If I was available, probably walking out with the lads on the day of the game, playing.
• 36:45
  So that was tough.
• 36:46
  I think the day of the game, the bit that hit me was when you leave the hotel.
• 36:52
  So we stayed at the Vale of... Did we stay at the Vale?
• 36:55
  Yeah, we stayed at the Vale of Glamorgan.
• 36:57
  It was at Millennium Stadium.
• 36:58
  Okay.
• 36:59
  So when you leave the hotel, there's actually like, there's like hundreds of fans at the hotel and it's like you step out and there's fans and then you kind of drive and make your way to Cardiff
• 37:10
  And like the stadium's in the middle of the centre, right?
• 37:14
  So I remember sort of going, we were on the bus and then everyone's got their music on.
• 37:18
  Everyone is pretty quiet and pretty chilled.
• 37:21
  And then you sort of, I don't know where we were, but we've gone down this one street and there's just Liverpool fans everywhere.
• 37:28
  Like they've taken over this like whole, I don't know what it is, but it must've been their designated area.
• 37:32
  But we're getting like, cans are hitting the bus and,
• 37:36
  people are giving it the old like signs and stuff and you're getting abused and boo.
• 37:40
  And there's loads of people, honestly.
• 37:42
  It was just like a lined, lined road and your bus is making its way through and then you're getting like battered.
• 37:49
  And then we turn this one road, no joke, and it was like West Ham.
• 37:53
  And it's just like the horns start going and the fans are like cheering and you're like, wow.
• 37:58
  Yeah, this is like proper.
• 38:00
  and the bus is going in and there's just fans everywhere and they go mad.
• 38:04
  Then you kind of walk out to look at the pitch, what you usually do probably an hour and a half before kickoff.
• 38:08
  And the place is like, there's loads of people inside the Millennium Stadium already.
• 38:13
  And you're like, you know, you walk out and you hear the cheers and stuff.
• 38:17
  You kind of understand there because that's the bit what really gets you is like you start focusing then when you're on the bus, you're like, right, yeah, let's go.
• 38:24
  It's just, you know, concentrating your game, what it looks like, who you're playing against, where you need to be and all them kind of bits.
• 38:29
  And that was the bit where I was like, yeah, I'm missing this one.
• 38:33
  Tough.
• 38:34
  Yeah, yeah.
• 38:35
  West Ham were obviously close to winning it.
• 38:37
  Very close.
• 38:37
  Yeah, yeah.
• 38:38
  Steven Gerrard pulls off possibly one of the greatest goals of FA Cup history.
• 38:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 38:43
  You're sat there watching it.
• 38:45
  It goes to penalties and West Ham lose.
• 38:48
  Did you kind of feel that, I wish I was down there taking a penalty?
• 38:52
  Oh, that's a big question.
• 38:53
  Not a penalty.
• 38:56
  I wish I was part of the game.
• 38:58
  I do wish I was part of the game.
• 39:00
  I think...
• 39:02
  Would I have taken a pen?
• 39:03
  That's a good question.
• 39:05
  Maybe, because Anton Ferdinand took one, so I probably would have took his one because his was poor.
• 39:09
  Nah, I love Anton.
• 39:11
  He's brilliant.
• 39:15
  Yeah, I probably would have stepped up.
• 39:17
  I think you have to at that time.
• 39:18
  I do remember Marlon cramping.
• 39:20
  I remember actually watching the game on the bench, just behind the bench, sorry.
• 39:26
  And I remember thinking, like, the goals we scored were, like, the scruffiest goals you've ever, like, Dean Ashton's one, I think he's just bundled it in.
• 39:35
  I think Paul Konczewski scores a cross from, like, 30, like, cross, yeah.
• 39:41
  And we're all going, this is us.
• 39:43
  Do you know what I mean?
• 39:44
  This is us.
• 39:46
  I don't know.
• 39:46
  And we were like three, two up.
• 39:47
  You're right.
• 39:48
  And it was really late on in the game.
• 39:49
  And I was dying to go to the toilet.
• 39:51
  So I sort of got off, went up the tunnel, gone into our dressing room.
• 39:54
  And they're putting like, back then it was Carlin.
• 39:57
  So they were stocking the fridge up with the beers.
• 40:00
  And then you get the champagne bottles with the winner's thing on it as well.
• 40:05
  And they were in the dressing room.
• 40:07
  So I'm going to the toilet.
• 40:08
  I mean.
• 40:08
  Because what I wanted to do is I wanted to go to a toilet so I didn't have to go on the pitch and then leave the pitch when we're celebrating.
• 40:15
  And it was only when I was coming back down the tunnel, I just heard this like the cheer.
• 40:19
  So I missed the goal.
• 40:20
  I missed the goal.
• 40:20
  I missed his like.
• 40:22
  You didn't see it on the TV or anything?
• 40:23
  No, because I was coming down the tunnel and I just heard this cheer.
• 40:26
  And it just erupted.
• 40:27
  And then as I'm coming out, all the boys on the bench were just like that.
• 40:30
  And it's like, you don't want to know what he's just done.
• 40:33
  But I didn't see it until after, yeah.
• 40:35
  So I actually missed his goal.
• 40:37
  And that's how close we were to winning the FA Cup, yeah.
• 40:40
  Crazy.
• 40:42
  It's crazy hearing that, you know.
• 40:44
  Yeah, crazy.
• 40:45
  It takes me to a year later.
• 40:48
  which again West Ham involved in an unbelievable story, nine games to go and you pull off a miracle.
• 40:56
  What's that like being part of that?
• 40:59
  Yeah, that's nerve wracking.
• 41:01
  That is, yeah, that's horrible.
• 41:02
  That is, that is, being in a relegation scrap is horrible because every game is big.
• 41:09
  Every game matters.
• 41:10
  You can't afford to drop points and things like that.
• 41:14
  That's pressure and it's even worse when you're in the Premier League because there's no easy games.
• 41:19
  So you can't look at it and go, right, yeah, we'll get three points here.
• 41:22
  Do you know what I mean?
• 41:23
  There's none of that.
• 41:25
  And, you know, we'd sign Mascherano and Tevez in that season and they'd come and they'd arrive, but they weren't quite fit.
• 41:35
  So they found it tough.
• 41:35
  The Premier League's really quick.
• 41:37
  It's a quick, quick league.
• 41:39
  And they actually found it pretty tough.
• 41:41
  And then Carlos, we sold Mascherano to Liverpool and then Carlos got his fitness and he was up and running at that time.
• 41:50
  And that's when he's popping up with goals and he's doing really well for us.
• 41:55
  And like I say, we had to go to Old Trafford last game of the season and get a result.
• 42:00
  Otherwise we were down like, this is Fergie's man you with...
• 42:05
  Ronaldo, Rooney, people like that, Giggs, Skolls, you know, people, big, big names coming off the bench.
• 42:12
  And we ended up, yeah, winning 1-0, but honestly, it's...
• 42:16
  It's a tough, tough place to be in because you look around and staff and people are going to start losing jobs if you get relegated and what does that look like for everyone?
• 42:26
  It's really, really tough, yeah.
• 42:28
  But like I say, thankfully, we had the squad and the character to get out of it, which was unbelievable looking back at it.
• 42:35
  Okay, so to break that down, you won seven of your last nine games, Arsenal away and Man United away, like you said.
• 42:45
  But listen to this, right?
• 42:46
  West Ham had a 10% chance of staying up, according to bookmakers, with the remaining games ahead.
• 42:52
  It was considered to be one of the biggest miracles in football.
• 42:55
  That's unbelievable, yeah.
• 42:57
  You mentioned Carlos Tevez.
• 42:58
  How important was he to that fight?
• 43:03
  Yeah, Carlos was a massive part of us at that time.
• 43:08
  Like I say, he grew into a really important player for us.
• 43:11
  And the best thing about Carlos Tevez is his work ethic.
• 43:15
  It's like through the roof, honestly.
• 43:18
  He's not the best trainer.
• 43:19
  It doesn't like Mascherano and him when they first come in.
• 43:22
  Javier was proper trainer, warrior, like proper.
• 43:26
  Like Carlos knew how to look after himself.
• 43:29
  But in games, honestly, he would put a real shift in, like a proper shift.
• 43:33
  So he ended up, yeah, being massively important.
• 43:37
  And like I say, he's a top, top quality player.
• 43:39
  They both are.
• 43:41
  I don't think you can understate and overlook a lot of the squad.
• 43:46
  I mean, what the boys did, first class, like Bobby Zamora, Colton, Marlon, those strikers who helped Carlos along the journey, you know, and the boys at the back, big James Collins, Anton Ferdinand, Danny Gabbard on, people like that, you know.
• 44:04
  Lads in midfield, Mark Noble was a young lad coming through then.
• 44:06
  He was tough to stop.
• 44:08
  You know, I'm looking at him and thinking, he's coming from my place here and he's playing games and stuff.
• 44:13
  So even young Mark Noble for him going into that, I'm sure that shaped him in his career.
• 44:18
  Fantastic career he had and fantastic play.
• 44:20
  And I'm sure that dressing room that we had and those experiences there must have helped him and Jack Collison and Chris Cohen and people like that.
• 44:31
  Yeah, it was a great effort by everyone.
• 44:35
  It was unbelievable, like you say, to look back at it now.
• 44:38
  You almost got no chance, have you?
• 44:39
  But...
• 44:40
  what the lads did was yeah unbelievable no no it sounds like the impossible but with you mentioned a number of players there you played with you actually played with some amazing players when you name them out loud yeah but something i want to focus on is the strikers so let me read out the list of strikers this is just a few by the way there's more than this and not disservice any of the people i'm missing but carlos tevez yeah teddy sharingan dean ashton bobby zamora
• 45:06
  Marlon Hayward, Craig Bellamy, Carlton Cole, Peter Crouch, Jermaine Defoe, Canu, Clinton Morrison.
• 45:13
  The list could go on.
• 45:13
  There's still more after that.
• 45:15
  There's a few, yeah.
• 45:16
  You played with so many amazing strikers.
• 45:18
  What does quality like that in front of you as a midfielder do for someone like you?
• 45:24
  Yeah, it's good.
• 45:25
  It's pressure on you, though, because you've got to provide...
• 45:28
  For them.
• 45:28
  So if you don't give them the ball, then they can't do what they want to do.
• 45:31
  Or if you don't get the ball into the right areas, you can't.
• 45:34
  But they make your job easier.
• 45:35
  Honestly, they're all the players you've named there and there's some that you've missed as well, like you're saying.
• 45:41
  But all those guys are top, top quality strikers and...
• 45:47
  Like Teddy, Teddy, he played with Teddy and Teddy must have been, I think he was nearly 40 when Teddy played with us in the Premier League.
• 45:52
  And they're all different.
• 45:54
  Like Marlon's a good runner, big, strong.
• 45:56
  You put it in the channel, Marlon's winning it.
• 45:58
  Same with Bobby.
• 45:59
  Bobby's holdup play was top draw.
• 46:01
  Colton could do both.
• 46:03
  Colton Cole, six foot three, can run, hold it up, score goals.
• 46:06
  Dean Ashton, honestly, his career got cut short.
• 46:09
  But again, big guy, playing to him, can finish.
• 46:12
  Yeah.
• 46:14
  Teddy would come on and demand the ball.
• 46:16
  So Teddy would come on and I'd be in midfield and talking to Nigel Rikhoek or whoever it is.
• 46:21
  And then I'd hear Hayden and I'd look around and he would just point at his feet.
• 46:25
  So I knew, OK, there's no way he's chasing balls.
• 46:28
  He would just point at his feet.
• 46:29
  And I knew exactly what that meant.
• 46:30
  It was like when I got it, he's there in the pocket and he wants it here.
• 46:33
  So I'd go, yeah, no problem.
• 46:36
  And you could fire it into Ted and Ted would look after it or push it wherever he wanted it, you know.
• 46:40
  And these guys make your job easier.
• 46:42
  Like I said, I could put the ball in a channel for those front runners, the ones who ran.
• 46:46
  And they're the ones who do the hardest bit and put the ball in the back of the net.
• 46:50
  Carlos was the same.
• 46:51
  He could take it to feet.
• 46:52
  He could run him behind.
• 46:54
  But, yeah, the names, like you say, you mentioned there.
• 46:57
  I mean, Bella's playing with Craig Bellamy.
• 46:59
  It's amazing.
• 47:00
  what a player yeah yeah but what a professional as well you know what really struck me with him is his hard work and how dedicated he is to his game and you know I'd be going home and Bellas would be going out to do more in the afternoon with ladders and balls and finishing and 2 o'clock in the afternoon I'm going home like top players and
• 47:18
  He's finishing how he would like finish and he's like, you'd hear him like bang and he'd be smacking the ball.
• 47:24
  Yeah, top, top player.
• 47:25
  Could run, could get in, could finish.
• 47:27
  With demand of people.
• 47:29
  Real, real tough, tough player.
• 47:32
  Demanded from his teammates what he put in.
• 47:34
  And if he saw players not putting in what he put in, he would let them know, which was good.
• 47:39
  Real leader.
• 47:40
  So yeah, play with Bele.
• 47:41
  He's a great guy.
• 47:42
  Like I say, Sam.
• 47:44
  Some top, top players there you've mentioned.
• 47:45
  And honestly, they all make our job easier.
• 47:48
  You give them the ball in certain areas and you play into their strengths and then they do the rest, which is a hard thing.
• 47:53
  I'm going to ask you a tough question now.
• 47:55
  Go on.
• 47:56
  It doesn't have to be from that list.
• 47:58
  So it can be other strikers that you've played with.
• 48:01
  If I was to give you one of those strikers to play in your team right now, who are you taking?
• 48:07
  Wow.
• 48:07
  Wow.
• 48:09
  That is a tough, tough question because you're talking about top international players and players who play for their countries.
• 48:16
  You get one.
• 48:17
  You get one.
• 48:18
  Oh, that is odd.
• 48:21
  I think the way we play now at Newport, we play a one striker.
• 48:27
  So it would have to be someone who looks after the ball.
• 48:31
  This is tough, honestly.
• 48:36
  you've got in here?
• 48:38
  Um.
• 48:39
  Ha ha ha.
• 48:43
  how do we play now?
• 48:44
  We play from back to front, so you have to be good in the air, good looking after it, finish when it comes in the box.
• 48:49
  I would probably say Teddy.
• 48:51
  You'd go with Teddy.
• 48:53
  Probably, yeah.
• 48:53
  We've got wide players you can run and we've got our number 10 who begins, who does a load of, does shift for him in the channel.
• 49:00
  So probably someone who stays central and just let him finish, yeah.
• 49:03
  And that's from, so that answers from a manager's perspective.
• 49:06
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:07
  Now give me a player's perspective.
• 49:08
  Oh,
• 49:12
  I can't.
• 49:13
  That is hard.
• 49:18
  Wow.
• 49:19
  That is tough.
• 49:21
  Players perspective.
• 49:26
  You got me.
• 49:30
  I'm going to be, I'm going to sit on the fence and just be really political and just go with,
• 49:42
  I'll probably go with Carlos just because of, you know, it's probably where he went in his career with Juve, Man U and people like that, but...
• 49:54
  Honestly, to the rest of the lads, they know I love them all.
• 49:56
  It's just, yeah.
• 49:57
  I think it's a fair answer.
• 49:59
  I really think it's a fair answer.
• 50:00
  I don't think anyone's going to argue against Carlos Tevez.
• 50:04
  So alongside the strikers, you played with some unbelievable strikers, as we've just established.
• 50:09
  You also played under huge personalities.
• 50:11
  Again, just to name a few here.
• 50:14
  You've got Terry Venables, who, of course, started your career.
• 50:16
  Steve Bruce.
• 50:17
  Alan Pardew, Alan Kerbishley, Jan Franco Zola, Tony Adams, Avram Grant.
• 50:24
  Yeah.
• 50:24
  I could go on.
• 50:25
  There's more.
• 50:25
  Yeah.
• 50:26
  Who would you, who would you play again for tomorrow?
• 50:33
  Pards.
• 50:33
  Alan Pardew.
• 50:34
  Yeah.
• 50:35
  Yeah.
• 50:35
  Is that because of the connection you grew with him?
• 50:38
  Probably, yeah.
• 50:39
  Yeah.
• 50:40
  I think he, I was his first signing at West Ham.
• 50:43
  He actually tried to sign me when he joined Charlton.
• 50:49
  He got sacked from West Ham and then he joined Charlton.
• 50:51
  He tried to take me there as well.
• 50:53
  At the time, it wasn't quite right.
• 50:56
  It felt for me at the time to stay at West Ham.
• 50:58
  But I do think Pards, we've got,
• 51:03
  That whole group, we got a connection, a real tight connection, which will always be there because I think we went through quite a lot together.
• 51:12
  We had three finals in three years.
• 51:15
  We had two player finals.
• 51:17
  We had an FA Cup final.
• 51:18
  We got into Europe the year after.
• 51:20
  So we had a real tight group.
• 51:22
  And I think once you're doing stuff together and you're achieving together, it brings you closer together.
• 51:29
  I think Steve Koppel is a name that's not on there as well, but Steve is, you know, got loads to thank Steve for because he was a real tough period in my career where I was growing into a young player and loads of advice, good manager.
• 51:45
  Terry Venables, obviously the guy managed England, Barcelona and, you know, massive, massive.
• 51:51
  He's the one who gave my debut, so I owe him an incredible, incredible amount.
• 51:57
  But
• 51:58
  I just think Alan Pardew for connection that we have as a group and everything that he did for me at that time is I'm incredibly grateful for.
• 52:07
  No, I love that.
• 52:08
  Moving on to the next chapter of your career, Portsmouth.
• 52:11
  You joined Portsmouth during a crazy period.
• 52:16
  Does all the noise around a financial situation like that affect a player when they're joining?
• 52:23
  Well, so I joined Portsmouth...
• 52:26
  Yeah, I was at West Ham at the time.
• 52:28
  I was being phased out a little bit.
• 52:30
  Not phased out, but I was on the bench quite a lot.
• 52:33
  I was making a lot of my appearances from the bench.
• 52:34
  Scott Parker was playing in midfield.
• 52:36
  Terrific player, by the way.
• 52:38
  Mark Noble was playing.
• 52:41
  I think we had Lee Bowyer around that time as well.
• 52:44
  But it was quite... And then Jack Collison, who's a young lad, was coming through.
• 52:48
  So I found myself sort of... Me and Scotty, I think, were the ones who was... Scotty was playing, and I think they saw me as like an understudy to Scott.
• 52:56
  And then Portsmouth made an offer around January and I had a decision to make.
• 53:00
  So I actually went down there and spoke to them.
• 53:03
  And my manager, Zola, at the time, he rang me.
• 53:06
  He was like, where are you?
• 53:07
  So I'm down at Portsmouth.
• 53:09
  He was like, what are you doing?
• 53:10
  I'm talking to Portsmouth.
• 53:11
  I've been given, you know.
• 53:13
  And he was like, what have they offered you?
• 53:14
  So I told him.
• 53:15
  And he rang me.
• 53:16
  He said, I'll ring you back.
• 53:16
  He rang me back.
• 53:17
  And he was just like, yeah, look.
• 53:18
  He said, we can't come to anything at the moment.
• 53:22
  He said, the club won't let us do anything with you.
• 53:23
  So...
• 53:24
  you're free to go and do what you need to do with them.
• 53:26
  So I decided to join Portsmouth.
• 53:28
  Um,
• 53:30
  At the time, I wasn't aware of the money issues at all.
• 53:34
  When you joined them?
• 53:35
  Not at all.
• 53:36
  Okay.
• 53:37
  Actually, Tony Adams was the manager.
• 53:39
  So I met Tony Adams and Peter Story.
• 53:42
  We had a real good chat about football.
• 53:47
  They actually told me that there was a training ground that is due to be completed.
• 53:50
  They're going to move to a new training ground because they would train at a university place, which was like...
• 53:54
  Honestly, it was like university grounds, port cabins and stuff like that, which was fine.
• 54:00
  And I said, yeah, no problem.
• 54:01
  Played at Fratton Park, which hadn't been touched since, I'm sure, like the late 80s or whatever.
• 54:07
  So I knew what Fratton Park was like, but the atmosphere and the crowd and everything was something that I, yeah, it was special.
• 54:15
  Like Portsmouth's a special play.
• 54:16
  If you go Fratton Park, honestly, they are the best fans.
• 54:19
  Yeah.
• 54:21
  But I wasn't actually aware of the money situation.
• 54:24
  Their squad was, honestly, it was... Glenn Johnson was right back, the England right back, David James, Sol Campbell, Sylvain Distan, Armand Traore, Peter Crouch, Jermaine had just left, Lassana Diara, do you remember the one who went around Madrid?
• 54:38
  He had just left.
• 54:40
  Nico Cranca, Jermaine Pennant was there.
• 54:43
  Like, the squad, honestly, I could go on.
• 54:45
  Jimmy Traore wasn't even getting in the squad.
• 54:47
  Lauren from Arsenal, do you remember the right back?
• 54:49
  He was like...
• 54:51
  What's Jermaine Pennant like to play with?
• 54:53
  Yeah, good player, Pennant.
• 54:53
  Because he was like a low-key baller.
• 54:55
  Technical, very, very technical.
• 54:56
  I say low-key, it wasn't even low-key.
• 54:58
  Oh, mate, he was a baller.
• 54:59
  He was a good player.
• 55:00
  His delivery from the right is one of the best, you know, really technical, good crosser.
• 55:06
  So their squad on paper, I'm looking at the squad going, they're like proper players here.
• 55:11
  England internationals, Crouchy, Dafoe, both playing for England.
• 55:15
  Like I said, Glenn Johnson, Sol would just finish playing.
• 55:18
  And it was like...
• 55:20
  And I wasn't aware of the money issues, obviously, until the end of that season.
• 55:25
  So they were in a little bit of a,
• 55:30
  No, it wasn't like a relegation scrap, but Harry had just left.
• 55:33
  Tony Adams had come in.
• 55:34
  They'd been in Europe that year when they played AC Milan at Fratton Park.
• 55:39
  So obviously when you're in Europe, it obviously affects your league performances.
• 55:43
  So it was a little bit sort of touch and go a little bit at the time.
• 55:46
  And I remember going in there, found it really tough to get into the team and stuff.
• 55:51
  Yeah.
• 55:52
  Some really good players.
• 55:53
  Sean Davis was there in midfield.
• 55:55
  Richard Hughes, who was the Liverpool CEO, just gone to Saudi.
• 55:59
  He was there in midfield.
• 56:00
  Good players, you know.
• 56:01
  I found it really tough to get into the midfield area.
• 56:05
  I was really excited, really, about joining them, but didn't really know about the money issues until actually just they sold everyone the next season.
• 56:13
  It's like, yeah, we've got no money.
• 56:15
  We've got to sell players to balance the books, yeah.
• 56:17
  Yeah, well, going back to the FA Cup final, four years after the FA Cup final situation we talked about, you're back in an FA Cup final.
• 56:26
  Yeah, yeah, mad.
• 56:27
  But this time you're playing.
• 56:29
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 56:30
  Did you ever think back to 2006 when you entered that FA Cup final?
• 56:36
  Yeah, leading up to it, I did.
• 56:38
  I think Portsmouth at the time, like I said, the whole team, the squad I just mentioned there, it just was a whole different flip.
• 56:48
  We sold so many players and then a lot of players were being replaced.
• 56:53
  But I think there were players who fitted the budget, the new budget, which was a lot smaller than obviously previously.
• 57:01
  So the squad was really sort of just put together
• 57:04
  But some fantastic players, again, that ended up coming.
• 57:08
  Kevin Prince-Botang, he came from Tottenham.
• 57:12
  He went to the World Cup at the end of the season with Ghana and stuff like that.
• 57:15
  I mean, Kev came and Freddie Picayon and stuff like that.
• 57:19
  But I remember the season was a really tough one.
• 57:22
  We got relegated that season, but we made the FA Cup final, which was really weird.
• 57:28
  And I, that season I was in and out of the team.
• 57:33
  Then I got in the team at right back.
• 57:35
  Then Steve Finnan, the old Liverpool right back, good player.
• 57:38
  He got fit.
• 57:40
  Then I got pushed to left back because I think someone was injured.
• 57:43
  So I ended up playing left back and I played the semi-final of the FA Cup at left back.
• 57:47
  against Tottenham great again a good Tottenham team Crouch Defoe Modric actually played not sure whether Bale played whether he'd left by that time but a good team we ended up beating them 1-0
• 58:00
  And then the week leading up to the final, so you get in the final, the left back got fit.
• 58:04
  There was a guy called Nadir Belhaj, Algerian left back, really quick.
• 58:10
  And he just got fit.
• 58:11
  So my only place in the team at that time was left back.
• 58:15
  I'm thinking, right, Steve Finan's fit.
• 58:18
  Everyone, all of a sudden, it's FA Cup finals, everyone's fit.
• 58:20
  It's like one of them.
• 58:22
  People just miraculously just, you know, appear.
• 58:24
  Yeah.
• 58:25
  So that week leading up to it wasn't relaxed.
• 58:29
  It wasn't a nice week for me.
• 58:31
  It was like a lot of, you know, am I in the team?
• 58:34
  Not sure, with do shape, not too sure, blah, blah, blah.
• 58:39
  And then, yeah, I think the manager actually, Avram, spoke to me the night before the game in the hotel in London and just said, look, you're going to play.
• 58:47
  So I wasn't too sure what I was doing.
• 58:50
  So yeah, it was pretty tough that week.
• 58:53
  You obviously played at left back in the final.
• 58:57
  So like you just mentioned, what's it feel like actually being told you're playing in an FA Cup final, not in your natural position?
• 59:05
  Yeah, so for me it's relief.
• 59:08
  Like I've been a player in my career, like I could fill like numerous positions.
• 59:13
  Like I would, so when I was at West Ham, my first, our first playoff final 2005, we got beat by Crystal Palace.
• 59:22
  So I left Palace that year, what I told you about that.
• 59:26
  we actually ended up meeting in a player final.
• 59:28
  They beat us.
• 59:29
  They get promoted to the Premier League.
• 59:30
  I was captain of that team.
• 59:31
  I'm like, I played left back in that game.
• 59:35
  And I played left back for West Ham, played centre back for Palace, played right back for West Ham, played right back for Palace, played central midfield for a number of clubs.
• 59:44
  So I'm kind of used, I understand the positions, which is good.
• 59:48
  It's probably what helps me now as a manager, really, when I'm trying to put bits together.
• 59:52
  But,
• 59:54
  Playing at left back was never really daunting for me.
• 59:57
  It was always one where
• 59:59
  I'm pretty comfortable playing in defence.
• 1:00:01
  I'm pretty comfortable playing in midfield.
• 1:00:03
  It's just you're doing it at an elite level.
• 1:00:05
  So in the semi-final, I was against David Bentley playing left back.
• 1:00:11
  Bentley doesn't really dribble with the ball.
• 1:00:14
  He wants to cross.
• 1:00:14
  Unbelievable crosser.
• 1:00:15
  Yeah, I have to stop the cross almost.
• 1:00:18
  Whereas Chelsea, I think it was Kalou I was playing up against and I found that one really tough.
• 1:00:23
  Yeah, it was Kalou.
• 1:00:24
  Kaloo's a wiry and he's a tough character.
• 1:00:27
  And then, you know, that one was tough.
• 1:00:29
  But I just think relief and excitement because, you know, I think I was 30 at the time, 29, not too sure.
• 1:00:38
  I was never scared of playing against opposition and stuff.
• 1:00:43
  I was always pretty sure of my role, understood the role, knew how to cover around, knew how to do certain bits in the role.
• 1:00:49
  So I was comfortable with that.
• 1:00:52
  And like I say, I was just looking forward to the game, really.
• 1:00:55
  And not long after you go on loan to Reading and you actually experience one of the strangest moments in football.
• 1:01:03
  You get promoted with Reading and four days later Portsmouth get relegated to Reading.
• 1:01:10
  What does that actually feel like as a player that's going up but also going down?
• 1:01:14
  Mad, so that was the season after we, yeah, we, I was at Portsmouth and again, it was, I don't know, if you remember, it was like the fake shakes and people were trying to buy the club, didn't have money and stuff like that in Portsmouth.
• 1:01:27
  And it was, we actually met someone who came into the training ground, you know, saying he had all this money, but was actually, was a dud.
• 1:01:34
  He came into the training ground, I always remember it.
• 1:01:36
  So what happened was then I think the club started spending money and then realising this guy hasn't actually got the money that we're spending.
• 1:01:45
  Then we were back to square one.
• 1:01:48
  So a lot of players ended up going out on loan.
• 1:01:50
  I was obviously one of them.
• 1:01:51
  I think it was trying to get the wage bill down.
• 1:01:54
  It was about five or six of us went out on loan.
• 1:01:56
  And for me, fortunately, it was Reading that came in, Brian McDermott, really good guy, good manager.
• 1:02:02
  And Reading is my hometown.
• 1:02:05
  I've never played for Reading.
• 1:02:06
  And they ended up taking me on loan, which was really good because, you know, we ended up winning the championship, you know, with Reading.
• 1:02:14
  So, yeah, that was, for me, a real, real highlight.
• 1:02:20
  And it was actually at one of the games we played Nottingham Forest at Madeski.
• 1:02:27
  And I think we needed to win to go up at Reading.
• 1:02:30
  And we actually, we won 1-0.
• 1:02:33
  I think Ledgerwood scored.
• 1:02:34
  We actually won the game.
• 1:02:36
  And then after I come into the changing room, we're all celebrating.
• 1:02:39
  And I looked at the result and it was the same night.
• 1:02:42
  Portsmouth got beat.
• 1:02:44
  The manager then was Michael Appleton.
• 1:02:47
  He rang me and just said, look, we've been relegated.
• 1:02:49
  I got relegated and promoted on the same night.
• 1:02:51
  It was the same.
• 1:02:52
  On the same night.
• 1:02:53
  So it's mad you say this, right?
• 1:02:54
  It was the same night.
• 1:02:54
  Because I did a lot of my research.
• 1:02:56
  And originally...
• 1:02:57
  I had found that you were the only person in the world to get relegated and promoted on the same day.
• 1:03:03
  Yeah.
• 1:03:03
  But then when I checked it, there was an official relegation, which was four days later, which is why I didn't go with that fact.
• 1:03:11
  But I think you are correct, though.
• 1:03:13
  From my understanding and looking at the maths, I think it's a matter of goal difference as to why.
• 1:03:18
  Maybe, yeah.
• 1:03:19
  Why it's not official.
• 1:03:20
  Yeah.
• 1:03:20
  I remember, yeah, so I think the goals they needed on the last day were like seven.
• 1:03:25
  Yeah, it was like impossible.
• 1:03:26
  It was something mad, so yeah, you're right.
• 1:03:27
  It was probably four days later, but it was that actual night where, yeah, the manager rang me, said, look, congratulations, but you've seen our result.
• 1:03:35
  And I'm like, yeah.
• 1:03:36
  He said, do you know what that means for us?
• 1:03:38
  And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:39
  So, yeah, that was actually, I found that one out on the same night.
• 1:03:43
  Crazy situation.
• 1:03:44
  I was really happy for Reading, but then I've got Portsmouth where I'm like, oh.
• 1:03:48
  And that's my club.
• 1:03:49
  So I was sort of stuck then, yeah.
• 1:03:52
  And after this, you moved to Birmingham.
• 1:03:54
  Yeah.
• 1:03:54
  Then Notts County.
• 1:03:56
  Yeah.
• 1:03:56
  And then 2015, at the age of 36, you decided it's time to hang up your boots.
• 1:04:00
  Were you ready for it?
• 1:04:02
  Yeah.
• 1:04:03
  Was that a hard decision?
• 1:04:04
  No.
• 1:04:05
  No?
• 1:04:07
  You know, it was... We just had a really tough year at Notts County, which was my last year.
• 1:04:13
  I had an up and down time at Birmingham as well.
• 1:04:17
  I was getting more frequent injuries.
• 1:04:18
  I've really struggled with a soleus injury, which is in your calf, which is like a tough one to tie down.
• 1:04:25
  And every time I injured it, I did it at Portsmouth and it was like four weeks.
• 1:04:30
  Then I would do it the next year.
• 1:04:31
  It was six.
• 1:04:31
  Then I joined Notts County, did it and it was like eight weeks, 10 weeks.
• 1:04:35
  And it was just getting longer to get back.
• 1:04:37
  Then I'll get back and break down.
• 1:04:38
  At the end of my last season, Notts County had been relegated in the last game of the season.
• 1:04:43
  And,
• 1:04:45
  And I was sat in the garden and I was, like you say, 36 or whatever.
• 1:04:49
  And honestly, the sun was out and the kids were playing.
• 1:04:54
  And it was that realisation of, like, I haven't got another pre-season in me.
• 1:04:57
  Like, you know, to start again and then get your running done and all your fitness work and make sure you're at this level for when the season comes and then the season comes and you've got to be ready to go for 40-odd games and nine months.
• 1:05:10
  It was like...
• 1:05:12
  Yeah, I just didn't want another year of the year before because it was such a bad one.
• 1:05:17
  And I was like, yeah, I was just sat there and I was like, do you know what?
• 1:05:21
  I'm done now.
• 1:05:22
  And I remember the next preseason coming in and my wife's like, have you, you spoke to your agent?
• 1:05:27
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:28
  But not really.
• 1:05:29
  Do you know what I mean?
• 1:05:30
  Then it gets to like, you know, August season starting, I'm dropping the kids off at school and stuff.
• 1:05:36
  Okay.
• 1:05:37
  should be out of training I'm like yeah and then it must have been September she's like you're retired and I'm like yeah I'm done I just yeah it's honestly the like I said before I'd never called football a job ever
• 1:05:54
  But it's like, it's so hard as a career because it's like every day you've got to get up and your body, like when you get like middle age and you've done like four or 500 games or three, your body is just like hurts.
• 1:06:08
  And like your ankle, then your back, you never really wake up, train and you feel like there's nothing wrong.
• 1:06:13
  There's always some like...
• 1:06:15
  this is killing me on my back, strapping up my ankle, and I've got this knock, then my knee's playing up again.
• 1:06:20
  Do you know what I mean?
• 1:06:24
  To be at that level and to stay consistent and to do it every day is tough because you have to train properly.
• 1:06:30
  You have to hit every metric they want.
• 1:06:32
  You have to be consistent with the ball.
• 1:06:34
  You have to perform.
• 1:06:35
  Then Saturday comes and it's like all the lights are on, then everyone expects more, and then...
• 1:06:40
  you know, you're running like 12K a game and it's like you wake up on a Sunday and you're rolling out of bed and you're like, and I was 36.
• 1:06:49
  I'm thinking, I ain't got that in me no more.
• 1:06:53
  And League One was tough.
• 1:06:54
  I found League One really hard.
• 1:06:55
  Like that was like one of the toughest, like experiences of my career.
• 1:06:59
  I thought it could be because before then I'd only ever played in the Premier League and Championship.
• 1:07:05
  I'd never experienced League One.
• 1:07:08
  Alan Smith manager as well, right?
• 1:07:10
  No, no, no.
• 1:07:12
  That was Sean Derry.
• 1:07:14
  Was he a player?
• 1:07:15
  He was a player and he became the manager after it.
• 1:07:17
  Alan Smith was a player.
• 1:07:19
  Roy Carroll, myself, we all joined with Sean Derry.
• 1:07:22
  He was the manager.
• 1:07:23
  And I just found it tough.
• 1:07:25
  Like, just big players were like pinning me down and balls just raining on top of me and they were beating me up.
• 1:07:32
  And I just remember thinking, this is tough.
• 1:07:35
  And after that year, yeah, I was like,
• 1:07:38
  Yeah, to wake up every day and try and hit those consistent marks again.
• 1:07:42
  And I was like, yeah, I can't.
• 1:07:44
  I can't.
• 1:07:45
  I wouldn't be able to justify my performances.
• 1:07:47
  Does that make sense?
• 1:07:48
  Like I couldn't live up to what I used to do.
• 1:07:51
  My body was like breaking down.
• 1:07:52
  I was getting this injury that was just taking so long.
• 1:07:55
  I probably made the decision too quick.
• 1:08:00
  I probably could have played on.
• 1:08:01
  Definitely could have probably stayed around League 1.
• 1:08:05
  League 2 dropped to a couple of divisions.
• 1:08:06
  Maybe, you know, I definitely could have done that.
• 1:08:08
  But I just felt I wouldn't have been giving myself the best opportunity.
• 1:08:12
  And I'd also started to look into coaching and, you know, was really intrigued about, like, tactics and training sessions and why you do certain sessions for Saturday and what it all looks like.
• 1:08:26
  if I'm being honest, I was probably falling out of love with playing, but falling in love with the coaching aspect.
• 1:08:32
  And, you know, it was kind of goes hand in hand really, because it was, it's stuff you do from the age of 16, all these sessions you're in possessions, you know, crossing and finishing tactical sessions, like every manager is different.
• 1:08:45
  Like Terry Venables was doing stuff in 98 that I'd never seen like,
• 1:08:49
  he's getting me to drop in between two centre-halves like Steven Gerrard was doing like 20 years later at Liverpool.
• 1:08:55
  And he's getting, you know, then going into midfield when we got it.
• 1:08:58
  And then it was like doing all these different things, you know, like Pep's doing now with...
• 1:09:03
  So he must have seen it at Barcelona, I'm not sure, but he was moving different formations and different shapes when we had the ball and we'd roll into a three when we had it and then we'd go back into a four and it was...
• 1:09:14
  Back then we were like, we couldn't grasp it really.
• 1:09:16
  But I was sort of like, yeah, moving into that camp, if I'm being honest.
• 1:09:21
  So I think I was ready for my transition, yeah.
• 1:09:24
  And you've been coaching ever since.
• 1:09:25
  So over 600 appearances, different clubs, different managers, they all trusted you.
• 1:09:31
  I've got a tough question for you now.
• 1:09:32
  And I know I asked you a tough one earlier.
• 1:09:35
  If you could play one more game at the highest level and you could handpick your centre midfield partner, what would it be and who would it be?
• 1:09:42
  From who I played with, this is?
• 1:09:44
  Or is this anyone?
• 1:09:45
  Oh, anyone in the world.
• 1:09:47
  Oh, right.
• 1:09:47
  Okay.
• 1:09:54
  So a game that I played in previously, which game would I want to revisit and with who?
• 1:09:58
  Yeah.
• 1:10:01
  Ah, that change.
• 1:10:03
  No, it doesn't.
• 1:10:04
  I would probably, yeah.
• 1:10:05
  I'd probably stay.
• 1:10:08
  and say the semi-final against Middlesbrough, FA Cup final.
• 1:10:14
  Like I say, we were the underdogs in that game.
• 1:10:15
  We went into it with a young, inexperienced team.
• 1:10:19
  Middlesbrough, we played Middlesbrough with the Mendieta, Vaduka, Jimmy Floyd, Hasselbeck, Bank up front, Southgate, Bo Tang, midfield.
• 1:10:29
  And they'd have a really good European campaign and I think everyone had sort of thought, you know, these guys have got it.
• 1:10:35
  McLaren was their manager at the time.
• 1:10:38
  But we were young, we were hungry, we had energy, we had pace, we had enthusiasm.
• 1:10:43
  And that day I played in midfield with a lad called Nigel Ryokoko, who was the captain.
• 1:10:47
  And I would probably do the same.
• 1:10:50
  I'd stay with Nigel, really good friend of mine.
• 1:10:52
  Really enjoyed my time with him, good player.
• 1:10:55
  And to experience that game after, you know, the relief of getting into a final was something I'll never forget.
• 1:11:01
  And it would be nice to relive that one, yeah.
• 1:11:04
  Yeah, what a player he was.
• 1:11:05
  And there's a number of players that you obviously played with.
• 1:11:09
  Nigel Ryokoka being a huge one.
• 1:11:12
  You spent a lot of time on the pitch with him.
• 1:11:14
  I've got a trivia question for you, a real quick one.
• 1:11:17
  So going through your entire career in this conversation, can you name the top three players that you spent the most minutes with on the pitch?
• 1:11:26
  Oh, that's a good question.
• 1:11:29
  Oh.
• 1:11:32
  Top three players I spent the most minutes on a pitch with.
• 1:11:37
  Clinton Morrison.
• 1:11:39
  Clinton Morrison is fourth.
• 1:11:41
  Oh, is he?
• 1:11:42
  He's not even top three.
• 1:11:43
  Yeah, you spent just over 8,800 minutes on the pitch with him.
• 1:11:48
  That's interesting.
• 1:11:49
  A lot of minutes.
• 1:11:50
  It is.
• 1:11:52
  And he's only fourth.
• 1:11:53
  He's fourth.
• 1:11:54
  I'm going to say someone like Matty Effrington.
• 1:11:57
  He's second.
• 1:11:58
  So that's one of the three, just over 9,500 minutes.
• 1:12:03
  This is senior appearances as well.
• 1:12:04
  So Clinton Morrison might be, obviously, in the youth.
• 1:12:10
  I'm going to say, so Matty's one.
• 1:12:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:17
  Anton Ferdinand.
• 1:12:18
  Number one.
• 1:12:18
  Number one.
• 1:12:20
  11,400 minutes.
• 1:12:21
  Well, just over.
• 1:12:23
  So he's, by quite a lot, he's number one.
• 1:12:26
  There'll be someone in and around that time.
• 1:12:28
  Yeah, so you just need number three.
• 1:12:29
  Someone who I've played with for a while.
• 1:12:33
  I'm going to have to go with... Not Nigel, is it?
• 1:12:38
  It's not Nigel.
• 1:12:38
  Nigel is actually fifth.
• 1:12:40
  Just over 8,700 minutes.
• 1:12:42
  I think it would be nice because he left and he went to Aston Villa pretty early.
• 1:12:45
  I'm going to say someone like...
• 1:12:50
  Marlon Hayward?
• 1:12:52
  Nah.
• 1:12:52
  Marlon Hayward is seventh.
• 1:12:55
  8,100 minutes.
• 1:12:56
  Go on.
• 1:12:56
  So the person is in third is 9,200 minutes.
• 1:12:59
  I'll give you one more clue.
• 1:13:00
  It's a striker.
• 1:13:01
  And you've mentioned him a few times in this, and we've talked about him.
• 1:13:04
  Bobby Zamora?
• 1:13:04
  Bobby Zamora.
• 1:13:05
  Is he?
• 1:13:06
  That's interesting.
• 1:13:07
  Just over 9,200 minutes.
• 1:13:08
  Wow, okay.
• 1:13:09
  So there's a number of players you've spent a lot of time with on the pitch.
• 1:13:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:13
  But to close off, at the start I asked you, who inspired you growing up?
• 1:13:19
  Who inspires you now?
• 1:13:23
  Very good question.
• 1:13:24
  I still think my dad is a massive part of, obviously, who I am and why I am today.
• 1:13:32
  I'm a mum as well.
• 1:13:34
  So definitely those two.
• 1:13:37
  Still was around my mum and dad yesterday.
• 1:13:39
  So, yeah, he told me about the team, which is good.
• 1:13:42
  So I know what to do now next week.
• 1:13:46
  Who else?
• 1:13:49
  Obviously coaches, when I see coaches and, you know,
• 1:13:54
  Listen, where I am now is a world away from, like the Premier League and stuff.
• 1:13:59
  But, you know, I got to see Marco Silva work pretty close and he's a top, top manager.
• 1:14:07
  But obviously you've got people like Pep Guardiola and...
• 1:14:11
  I was pretty fortunate to coach against Pep when I was at Watford.
• 1:14:15
  Can you take that when you were in the interim?
• 1:14:17
  Yeah, when I was in the interim.
• 1:14:20
  And Pep's changed football.
• 1:14:23
  He's done unbelievable.
• 1:14:25
  Doesn't need me to say that, but what he's done is everyone's copying, basically.
• 1:14:30
  He's copying and pasted and people are winning titles.
• 1:14:34
  from what Pep's done.
• 1:14:35
  And I actually had five or ten minutes with him when we played him and we played the Man City.
• 1:14:41
  And it was during COVID, so there was no press, but you had to do...
• 1:14:46
  The press had to sort of stay where the seats are and the managers would do their chat on the pitch, just, you know, distance away from the camera.
• 1:14:54
  So he had finished his and I was going to do mine.
• 1:14:57
  And we actually stopped and had ten minutes and we had a really...
• 1:15:01
  Well, it was a really good chat that from my point of view and some of the bits and some of the things he was talking to me about there were, you know, it's still with me now.
• 1:15:11
  And yeah, to have 10 minutes with the great man himself, just me and him was unbelievable.
• 1:15:16
  So, you know, I definitely would say, you know, someone like Pep and how he he's like the Messi and the Ronaldo, right, of management.
• 1:15:26
  I mean, he's got he's done everything and he's got all the titles to prove it.
• 1:15:31
  He gets up every day and you see his passion on the touchline and how he is and his drive to get better and keep pushing his team.
• 1:15:37
  And, you know, he could easily walk away from the game for a little bit of time, you know, like Klopp has done or whatever.
• 1:15:42
  But I'm sure you'll see him in a dugout again soon.
• 1:15:45
  But he's a top, top man, top, top person.
• 1:15:49
  And like I say, I was lucky enough to have 10 minutes with him and just someone like him to see him.
• 1:15:54
  He gets up every day and does his work and how he goes about his work is top class.
• 1:15:59
  Yeah, unbelievable manager, of course.
• 1:16:02
  And as a Man United fan, I think there's Alex Ferguson and then there's Pep Guardiola as well.
• 1:16:08
  I'm not saying he's just behind, but when you mentioned Messi or Ronaldo, that's the bracket I put him in.
• 1:16:13
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:14
  That's for Alex Ferguson and Pep Guardiola.
• 1:16:16
  And I think you're exactly spot on with that, to be honest.
• 1:16:19
  So just to finish off, there's a 17-year-old
• 1:16:22
  still playing out there at the moment, trying to make his way in the professional game.
• 1:16:27
  If you could give one piece of advice to that person right now, what would you give him?
• 1:16:33
  I'd say, firstly, I would say...
• 1:16:36
  Listen to all the advice you're given and if people are trying to help you improve, listen and try and take on their advice and try and implement on the pitch.
• 1:16:45
  And the second bit was just to work as hard as you can.
• 1:16:48
  There's no... For me, there's no sort of...
• 1:16:53
  book or there's no sort of nothing you can read or say yeah do this that and that and you know you'll be a professional player and I think if you work hard and you you can work to your maximum the rest will all hopefully come because if you are a good player and you're listening you're taking advice and you're trying to improve then
• 1:17:12
  I think the work, the hard work aspect, honestly, is probably what people don't see on Instagram and, and on, on, on our next and things like that.
• 1:17:20
  When people look at football's life, they see cars and fame and scoring the goal on a Saturday.
• 1:17:25
  And now you get on your, your social media, you just get like the breakdown of the game, which will be the chances and stuff.
• 1:17:31
  And,
• 1:17:32
  I think what people don't see is the everyday effort that goes into, actually.
• 1:17:35
  If you want to be where those guys are, you've got to be prepared to do a certain amount of hours of work and how hard it actually is.
• 1:17:42
  So you only learn that by getting up every day and doing it.
• 1:17:46
  So it's hard.
• 1:17:46
  So just work incredibly hard.
• 1:17:49
  Work as hard as you can and listen to the advice and try and implement the advice.
• 1:17:54
  Aidan Mullins, absolute legend.
• 1:17:56
  Thank you.
• 1:17:57
  I appreciate you taking the time with me.
• 1:17:58
  No worries, bro.