Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 116. Getting Personal Writing Psychological Horror

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116. Getting Personal Writing Psychological Horror · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:05
  Welcome to the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction.
• 0:13
  Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
• 0:20
  Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away, as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
• 0:38
  Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
• 0:42
  There are real and important skills that you need to learn.
• 0:45
  On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
• 0:49
  I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing I was recently at a book coaching conference in Denver, Colorado, and I went out for dinner with some colleagues who brought along this really cool writer, Suzanne Junored.
• 1:06
  And I just love, love, love talking with her.
• 1:09
  She is a horror writer, and specifically she writes the psychological horror of motherhood.
• 1:15
  And the topic was just so fascinating, I knew that she needed to come on the podcast and tell you about it.
• 1:20
  So this episode is gonna be really, really cool.
• 1:23
  We're gonna talk about this whole new genre that she's working in, um, what it means, and you're gonna learn a ton.
• 1:31
  Suzanne Junored is a psychological horror author.
• 1:34
  She's a musician, she's a mother, and she's also a dietician.
• 1:38
  But those are just the things that she does.
• 1:41
  At her core, she's actually driven by curiosity and play.
• 1:45
  She's a quirky storyteller, she's a big-hearted nurturer, and she's an empathetic shame distiller.
• 1:52
  She's the author of Good Night Monsters, which is coming out September 1st, 2026, and House of Mannequins, which is forthcoming September 2027.
• 2:02
  She's also the host of the podcast, No Secrets, No Shame.
• 2:06
  Check it out.
• 2:07
  Her work explores the depths of human impulses and desires with a particular focus on women who don't behave as expected.
• 2:15
  She's a Tennessee native, now living outside of Boulder, Colorado, and her stories are rooted in the voices of non-traditional Southern women.
• 2:23
  Welcome to the podcast, Suzanne Junored.
• 2:27
  So good to have you here.
• 2:29
  I'm so grateful to be here, Suzy.
• 2:32
  Oh, my goodness.
• 2:33
  So we're gonna just get going here, 'cause I have so much that we wanna talk about.
• 2:38
  When we were planning this podcast, I just wrote pages and pages of notes.
• 2:42
  But share with our listeners today, what exactly is the psychological horror of motherhood?
• 2:48
  Because I was like, that is… I, I mean, as a mom myself, there is something there, but what is that?
• 2:55
  That's a great question.
• 2:56
  I think a good deal of m- mothers, women who have become mothers themselves, might know a little bit about that.
• 3:05
  I, to me, it is These expectations that are s- placed on women to be or act in a certain way, be that through pregnancy, when you are raising children, postpartum days, all of it.
• 3:22
  And I think these are a lot of unspoken conversations that we're not having with one another, and it can feel very isolating and horrific to have fears that arise when you are becoming a parent, when you're You know, things are happening emotionally or physical changes or psychosomatically in your body, um, during and after pregnancy, during the child rearing years.
• 3:52
  I guess both childbearing and child rearing, I just, I think there's a lot there, and it can be simultaneously beautiful and magical, and a little bit horrific Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:05
  So is this like a, should we have a trigger warning on here for people who have not yet had children?
• 4:10
  I know, right?
• 4:11
  I don't wanna talk anyone out of having children.
• 4:13
  No, absolutely not.
• 4:15
  Yeah.
• 4:15
  Okay.
• 4:16
  But you say in your bio that it took you three books to realize that you actually write horror.
• 4:20
  Can you tell us a little bit about how that came to be and, and how you came to this genre?
• 4:26
  Yeah, that's a great question.
• 4:27
  I, I wrote, this particular book was the second book that I wrote, and it was after another writer friend kind of gave me permission to write what I wanted to write.
• 4:39
  It was an interesting conversation.
• 4:40
  The, the first book that I had written and rewritten was kind of a, a practice run, and he turned to me and he said,"You know, you're really missing certain aspects of real life," in this first book that I had written.
• 4:54
  And he said, "What do you really want to write about?" And I had also listened to, this was back in the day when Gone Girl had come out.
• 5:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:03
  And I was a couple years late to it, but I listened to the audiobook late at night one week when I was, like, painting, stenciling a room in my house.
• 5:12
  And l- listening to that and hearing the things that the main character, Amy, I think was her name, was doing, I, like, something clicked inside me that like, oh, I wanna write about women who are doing things that they're not expected to do, or acting in ways that they're not expected to act.
• 5:34
  And I didn't really know that the things that I was writing were turning into horror, but initially, my stories would take, I guess they still do, they take a very dark turn.
• 5:44
  And initially, I was writing into not happy endings, I should say.
• 5:50
  And it, there were some writing professionals that would say, "Okay, this is an interesting story, and the readers need, like, a, something to wrap up, some sort of hope at the end." And why did it take me so long to, to realize that I was writing horror?
• 6:06
  It's, it's interesting.
• 6:06
  But just a minute.
• 6:07
  Yeah.
• 6:07
  So did you, did you lean into that?
• 6:10
  I mean, you don't need to spoil this book.
• 6:11
  You have many books on the go.
• 6:12
  Yeah.
• 6:12
  But did, did you lean into the fact that, okay, I need to not leave it so bleak?
• 6:17
  Yes and no.
• 6:19
  I understood what these professionals, publication professionals too, were talking about.
• 6:25
  Like, we can't just go down and down and down and have zero hope.
• 6:29
  The readers are gonna be left, I don't know, pulling themselves out of the mud, and they're probably not gonna like that.
• 6:35
  And so I, I figured out ways to kind of bring some hope back into my stories, yet I couldn't change it to be the happy ending of- No say, a romance story or other genres, which I love.
• 6:51
  But this was not the kind of stories that I was writing.
• 6:54
  And so- I kept my signature in there in that comparing fiction to real life, things don't always come out as we want them to come out, and there can still be some darkness.
• 7:09
  There can still be some bleakness, while simultaneously rising up and having some sort of hope.
• 7:16
  Yeah.
• 7:16
  Absolutely.
• 7:16
  Okay, so I cut you off there.
• 7:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:18
  So you said, why did it take me so long to realize?
• 7:20
  To realize.
• 7:21
  I- to me, it was just being around other writers and other publication professionals, they were the ones who taught me what I was writing.
• 7:31
  It took a long time.
• 7:32
  I was thinking that I was writing into thriller or suspense.
• 7:36
  I really called my writing suspense, because to me, and you correct me, because you know better than I do, in- in my mind, thriller is like someone is literally chasing you, and in my books- Yeah, I mean, psychological thriller, maybe not, but yes.
• 7:52
  Um- Right… but I think the difference being if you're Like, that was one of the really big psychological thrillers, where you kind of know what happens.
• 8:04
  There's this, the suspense piece, right?
• 8:06
  Like, you know what happens, and then you're, like, trying to figure out how it happened, right?
• 8:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:10
  Versus the opposite.
• 8:12
  I don't know.
• 8:13
  Yeah.
• 8:14
  Yeah, and I- I think that's where I took the word suspense.
• 8:18
  With the cadence of the, my books too can be a little more introspective.
• 8:23
  It's not, you know, the literal chase, and I know in psychological we're not needing that literal chase, but there's just something a little different and slower, while, you know, hopefully not dragging the reader along.
• 8:37
  Yeah, and I think the horror piece, like, you're not talking gore and slash and burn horror novel- Yeah right?
• 8:43
  Yeah.
• 8:43
  Yeah, so that is where I thought, well no, I'm not writing horror in that way.
• 8:48
  We're not, you know, it's not a serial killer.
• 8:51
  It's not a… Gosh, I, my mind immediately went to those Saw movies, which I, were not for me.
• 8:58
  I don't know why.
• 9:01
  Why are you doing that?
• 9:01
  Halloween and- Yeah … Halloween, like Jason- Let's, let's run up the stairs,'cause that's a good idea, right?
• 9:07
  Like, I'm gonna- Right … escape upstairs.
• 9:07
  Right.
• 9:07
  Don't do that, right?
• 9:08
  Yeah.
• 9:08
  No.
• 9:08
  Please don't do that.
• 9:09
  Um- Hey, yeah, no, and I love all of this discussion, Suzanne, because what you've done, and thank goodness for your colleague who held up the mirror for you, and I think that's really important in writing when, uh, you know, I talk to a lot of writers who struggle with genre, and there are so many nuances, and at the end of the day, if you can figure out what genre you're writing, that's helpful because it, there are some tropes and there are some expectations in there, and you already have a ready-made audience.
• 9:36
  And we can break the rules, 'cause you are unique, and it sounds like, you know, these stories were coming out and you were trying to find where they fit.
• 9:43
  And then hopefully once you found where they fit, then you could be like,"Oh, okay, here's what I need to do to fit into that genre," like you said.
• 9:50
  Maybe not leave, like, the readers in the mud maybe not leave all these things.
• 9:55
  But it's a really important discussion that sometimes happens too late for writers, where they haven't thought about who is their reader and what, who are they going to find and who are they having that conversation with.
• 10:07
  Because at the end of the day, when we talk about what we're writing, we wanna have conversations, and you have some huge themes, and we're gonna talk about this later.
• 10:15
  But you have some huge themes that you wanna address with your writing and some things that you wanna say to the world, and this is the medium.
• 10:20
  I love it.
• 10:22
  Yeah.
• 10:22
  Yeah.
• 10:23
  I'm so glad that I have professionals in my life who can guide me in that way.
• 10:28
  It took me a while just to say, you know, I'm writing this, but it's a little different.
• 10:32
  I'm writing this, but it's a little different.
• 10:33
  And just like you're saying, knowing that I was writing horror even if it was not the typical slasher- Body horror type stuff.
• 10:43
  It gave me permission to- Yeah … rewrite the stories that I wanted to write, as opposed to trying to shift what I was doing and to write into another genre.
• 10:53
  Yeah.
• 10:54
  No, I absolutely love that.
• 10:55
  Okay.
• 10:55
  So you also are talking, I mean, you're about to start a podcast which talks about the human behavior and themes in books, and this is where you and I are like, "Oh my gosh, there's a podcast episode here for the Show Don't Tell writing podcast," because human behavior is what Show Don't Tell is all about really, is getting into that and showing what it's like to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes.
• 11:20
  But what is it about the darker side of human behavior that has sort of drawn you?
• 11:26
  Yeah.
• 11:26
  That's a great question.
• 11:27
  I think human behavior is what drives all of fiction, which I think is, is what you're saying too, because we are creating these stories, and we are showing how these characters might react, and they might be these hyperbolic scenarios that hopefully we're not always reacting in the same ways in real life.
• 11:47
  The darker side of human behavior, for me, are those things that exist inside of all of us, but we're not necessarily talking about, and this is what I wanted to start writing into in my writing, and this is what I want to bring into conversations in my podcast, mainly just to normalize and to take shame out of people thinking or feeling or acting a certain way in their real lives.
• 12:16
  Yeah.
• 12:16
  And so, I mean, we've met in person, which is amazing, and, and had such a good time, and I gotta say, you know, I would never have guessed that this is what you write, which is cool.
• 12:27
  And, and I often like to say, too, when I meet writers, the, uh, and we have a great conversation like you and I did that very first day, the first thing I do is run out and buy their books because I would understand how their mind works a little bit more.
• 12:41
  But would you say, like, 'cause I don't know you very well, would you say that this is sort of like or unlike what you're like in, in real life?
• 12:49
  Does it reflect sort of your perspective, or is it very different?
• 12:52
  I don't know.
• 12:53
  Right.
• 12:54
  People say that to me all the time, Suzy.
• 12:56
  They're like, "You write really dark content." Yeah.
• 12:59
  Because in, I present, smile, and just like happy and sunshiny and all of those ways.
• 13:05
  And for me, writing into the darkness is therapeutic.
• 13:10
  Yeah.
• 13:11
  And I think this is part of my not understanding that I was writing horror for a while either, is that there are parts of me that need to get these thoughts out, to write through my own hard moments in life, and how that comes on, on the page can come out in a multitude of ways.
• 13:31
  But this book that's being published, Good Night Monsters, actually was written, the majority of it was written during my postpartum days, which I didn't realize until later.
• 13:42
  I was definitely suffering from some sort of postpartum depression.
• 13:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:47
  And it, it was a form of therapy for me to go through and write these really dark scenes.
• 13:53
  And I must put a disclaimer out there, my character has murderous fantasies.
• 13:57
  I luckily never had murderous fantasies, so I was like taking this to the extreme.
• 14:02
  But- Yeah, but, but writing is always personal.
• 14:04
  And, and when I say that- By the way… it doesn't mean that we can read it and see what Suzanne did, her darkest moments.
• 14:09
  Yeah.
• 14:10
  Exactly.
• 14:10
  But it always comes from the writer's lens.
• 14:12
  And so if you're writing this,'cause this happens a lot, and I'm gonna ask you in a moment about how you deal with that, right?
• 14:18
  Because yes, it's therapeutic, but also, right, how does it affect you, the writer?
• 14:24
  Because it does.
• 14:25
  But writing is always personal in that you can only write from your own lens, and what that means is, okay, yes, maybe you did what's in the story, but probably you didn't, right?
• 14:34
  Yeah.
• 14:35
  Maybe you never did it.
• 14:36
  Maybe you would never do it.
• 14:38
  Maybe it's something you wish you'd done.
• 14:39
  Maybe it's something you wish you hadn't done.
• 14:41
  Maybe it's something you wish you'd done differently.
• 14:43
  But you've always got the writer in the middle because it's your brain that's producing this.
• 14:48
  And so the only thing that you can do is actually reflect on your own.
• 14:52
  So it's either something you've done, something you haven't done, something you wish you'd done, something you wish you hadn't done, something you wish you'd done differently.
• 14:58
  Those are kind of the only things that we can write about.
• 15:00
  And so no matter, you know, whether or not this is your own life, obviously it's not, but it still has pieces of you in that and, and the things that you've experienced.
• 15:10
  And so I think that's really cool.
• 15:13
  So many pieces, yes.
• 15:14
  So while, like, murder is not a part of my true life, there are other- there are opinions that come into play.
• 15:22
  There are characters or actions that they take that, that I think, "Oh, what would it be like to explore a relationship like this in my life, even if I'm not acting upon it?" So there are.
• 15:33
  There are so many pieces of me inside of it.
• 15:36
  Not murder.
• 15:37
  Yeah, not murder.
• 15:39
  No.
• 15:39
  Okay.
• 15:39
  So, and, and, you know, like we have a similar- we, we have the same name.
• 15:43
  I'm also Suzanne, right?
• 15:44
  And we have a similar- I know … sort of persona, which is, oh, you're the smiley, the happy, the whatever, and I do write very, very light-hearted things.
• 15:53
  But I actually edit and coach a lot of- Mm … very dark things, and, and people are sometimes surprised.
• 15:58
  You know, I, I go all the way from spicy romance to horror to whatever, and I do a lot of trauma stories that I support writers through when they're writing memoir or writing, uh, fictionalizing it, and there's a lot of work to unpack all of that.
• 16:13
  And I think one of the things, um, and then that sometimes surprises people, I will often get intake forms where people wanna work with me, and they're like,"Trigger alert. Would you work on a story like this?" And there are things- Right… that I won't work on, but generally I'm, I'm willing to go pretty deep with writers who have to, you know, who want to say this, because these stories are needed.
• 16:33
  But as a writer, it's really important that we're looking after ourselves, too, and as an editor of it, and as we're going through it, as a reader of it.
• 16:41
  Um, so as a writer, do you find that you have to carry this, or how do you carry this, and how do you look after yourself and integrate back into your real life, your non-murderous real life, Suzanne, right?
• 16:51
  Yeah.
• 16:52
  Um, when you're working on, on a book like that, like, what are the things that you've learned that you have to do?
• 16:56
  'Cause listeners here probably have, uh, encountered that as well.
• 17:01
  For sure.
• 17:01
  A couple things come to mind.
• 17:03
  So one, for me, in the last five years of my life, I'd say since I turned 40, I have been exploring some healing work of my own, and just p- intra-personal work.
• 17:16
  What's, what can I let go of?
• 17:18
  And so I'm gonna talk into, like, a little bit of a woo space about moving energy.
• 17:22
  Hey, whatever works for you.
• 17:24
  Yeah.
• 17:24
  It's completely different for everybody.
• 17:25
  So like clearing… Exactly.
• 17:27
  So clearing out, clearing out old energy that, like, stays in my body, emotions, thoughts that get stuck on repeat, that kind of a thing.
• 17:36
  I have external ways to do that, and honestly, now that I, now that I understand healing practices and how to move that energy, personally, I think that writing, for me, helps clear that out.
• 17:49
  So I'm, like, putting it on the page or in the computer or wherever it's actually going, is putting that somewhere outside of myself.
• 17:58
  So if I write a really dark scene, I actually feel cleared afterwards, as opposed to, like, carrying that with me to pick my kids up from school.
• 18:08
  I- that's already gone.
• 18:09
  I'm already in the next space, in the happy, joyful, sunshine, hi kids kind of a space.
• 18:15
  Yeah.
• 18:15
  So I don't tend to hold that, which is great.
• 18:19
  The second thing that I realized years ago is the very first time, there are so many true crime fanatics these days, and I think it's so cool and interesting for those people, but when I tried to research- I am not one actually- I am not one.
• 18:35
  Yeah, I try, I- Yeah … I can't remember what I Googled right, one night, but I actually remember sitting on the couch, I remember this night very distinctly, and I started to read about some sort of serial killer or something, and the way that felt in my body, I can still feel.
• 18:53
  And so I did some damage to myself, and I realized I can't research such things.
• 18:58
  For me, it has to come completely from my imagination, and from the place of fiction, knowing that this is separate from real life.
• 19:07
  Yeah, I think that's really important, and I'm glad that you're really aware of it, Suzanne, and you, you wouldn't be as successful as you are because it gets muddled or we get stuck if we're not looking after ourselves.
• 19:16
  But whatever, you know, if you're listening out there and you're writing something that's a little bit tender for you, um, either because of your own past trauma or because it's just really not l- like your own persona, uh, make sure that you're looking after yourself.
• 19:32
  I like to tell … You know, I, I'm very happy when, when I'm writing with writers and they have some other form of therapy that isn't their book coach, uh, 'cause I am not a therapist.
• 19:41
  But we do, you know, writing can be very therapeutic.
• 19:45
  It can get a lot of things out.
• 19:46
  But you need to make sure that you're looking after yourself as you're doing it.
• 19:50
  Agreed.
• 19:50
  Yeah.
• 19:50
  One of the things that I find fascinating is most writers who do go very dark, you know, I said it's always from a personal lens.
• 19:58
  Most are writing almost from a, this is something I would never do, or this is something I'm fascinated with because I can't believe that people actually do it.
• 20:05
  And I like to remind them of that.
• 20:06
  They're not … You know, just because you're writing this doesn't mean that you condone murder at all.
• 20:11
  Right.
• 20:11
  In fact, it's exposing those other pieces of the underworld and, and making people question why does it happen and how do we heal and, you know, maybe recognizing that that isn't something that, that you do is a good thing, so yeah.
• 20:24
  Exactly.
• 20:25
  Deep- I love that… dark conversation.
• 20:26
  I like it.
• 20:27
  Dark conversation.
• 20:28
  Can I turn the question around to you?
• 20:30
  Because if- Yeah, for sure … you're taking on dark content- Yeah … like, what do you do to protect yourself and to center yourself?
• 20:35
  Yeah.
• 20:36
  I mean, it is, it is hard, and it isn't hard.
• 20:38
  I can hold a lot.
• 20:39
  I think that's why I'm able to do this work, to be honest.
• 20:42
  So know what you can hold.
• 20:44
  But I also, I have a lot of- Support in terms of communities.
• 20:49
  I am in, I, I'm in more communities than you can even believe, both with fellow book coaches as well as f- you know, online business owners and masterminds.
• 20:57
  Um, I have my own business coach who also can hold some of that.
• 21:02
  So i- if there are moments, usually it's not an issue.
• 21:05
  I just feel so blessed to be able to work through with these writers, and the end result is so rewarding in terms of what they are able to get through.
• 21:14
  I'm a non-judgmental space- Yeah … in terms of, like, whatever you've been through, you've been through.
• 21:19
  I mean, as a trained book coach, I am a certified book coach.
• 21:22
  There's a whole … This was one of the first moments where I realized that some people will treat book coaching as therapy, um, that there is a fine line- Mm-hmm … between it, and, and we have, you know, practices and, and boundaries that I hold that w- really help.
• 21:36
  And I was surprised when we had that conversation, 'cause I was coaching before I did my certification, and when it came up, like, as a whole module and discussion and this that you need to learn, I was like, "Oh, wow, okay.
• 21:49
  Okay, like, this is a thing." Right.
• 21:51
  Like, you're holding some of the most precious moments for writers, and it, it does get very deep.
• 21:57
  But yeah, I just, I just am so honored and privileged that people share that with me, and I teach them how to get it out and make sure that they have ways to support themselves as well, but thank you.
• 22:08
  Yeah.
• 22:08
  I, I appreciate that you said most of the writers who come to you as well will give- Give you kind of some trigger warnings or say, "Do you take on this kind of content?" Because the people who have the forethought to even ask those questions are most likely the writers that you are wanting to work with, because they approach the topics gently and they're aware.
• 22:30
  Well, I think they've… Yeah, and I think they've kind of hit a wall.
• 22:32
  Like, when I work with a writer like that, um, they've kind of hit a wall where they can't move forward or they're not sure why they can't move forward.
• 22:38
  And like I said, sometimes just recognizing it, for me it was, like, really eye-opening to be like, oh my gosh, people that are certified in my profession that I was kind of doing because people asked me to do and I didn't even know that it had a name originally, book coach, right?
• 22:52
  But people who are certified actually address this because it's a thing.
• 22:56
  And I think that's important for writers to hear as well.
• 22:58
  Like, if you're struggling with something that you're writing and it's kind of crossing over into that deep emotional place that you're getting to and it's helping but it's also exposing something, sometimes just naming th- th- that's what it is.
• 23:12
  It- Right … it's an art form.
• 23:13
  You know, you're not just saying, "Hey, write me a serial killer n- novel, ChatGPT." These are your own, like, you gotta go d- you gotta go deep.
• 23:22
  You don't necessarily need to go dark, but you gotta go pretty deep.
• 23:25
  And recognizing that that's a thing and you need to look after yourself is really important.
• 23:29
  I take a lot of breaks during the day.
• 23:31
  I make sure that there's buffers between clients.
• 23:33
  I, you know, like, I have my outlets.
• 23:35
  I don't, I don't share any of the, um, I mean, I'm not bound by a professional code except that I am.
• 23:41
  Like, I don't share those things with anybody else.
• 23:43
  Right.
• 23:43
  But I make sure that I'm going for a walk or going for a swim or, that's my thing, right?
• 23:47
  Like, I'm a swimmer.
• 23:48
  Yeah.
• 23:48
  So going for a swim between sessions is something that I will do to sort of just wash it and hope that, hope for the best.
• 23:54
  Great.
• 23:55
  Water literally washes- Yeah… things away.
• 23:58
  That's why we have a kitchen.
• 23:58
  Water, I'm such water, I'm such a water baby.
• 24:01
  Yeah.
• 24:01
  And actually my, my pool, it's, it's the middle of May when we're recording this, so we won't be releasing it until closer to the date of Suzanne's launch.
• 24:08
  But yeah, they're actually going to be opening, I'm kind of looking, they're opening the pool today, which is very late.
• 24:13
  But I was in Italy at a conference last week, and it was snowing here.
• 24:17
  Like, I live in the foothills of the Rockies, and it- Right… snows whenever it feels like snowing, Yes.
• 24:24
  Um- We got snow last week actually.
• 24:26
  Okay.
• 24:26
  And now it's, now it's in the 80s again.
• 24:28
  Yeah, exactly, and we're in that boat too.
• 24:30
  I think we're hopefully do- I mean, we might get another freak blizzard, but it was hard to get, traveling and everything, it was hard to get it cleaned up enough to actually open.
• 24:38
  Okay, back on topic.
• 24:40
  Because we're talking about these things, but- You're also really interested in human behavior, and that's right up the Show Don't Tell alley.
• 24:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:49
  I think that's why, you know, I, I dive into a lot about readers' brains and, like, how they work and how- Mm … how we can affect them and how we can not affect them and how we can help them.
• 24:59
  And, and so that human behavior piece, the fact that you even wanna go there and talk about it is pretty exciting.
• 25:06
  But how do you use it in your writing?
• 25:08
  Like, everybody's kind of got their own take.
• 25:09
  How do you use human behavior and your knowledge of human behavior in your books in order to really draw readers in?
• 25:17
  What is it that you do?
• 25:20
  I am no expert.
• 25:21
  I studied science in my former career, but the psychology behind how people act, think, and feel has always fascinated me, I think just because I'm so human myself.
• 25:36
  And a lot of what, again, I, I keep mentioning like this last five years of my life was hugely tr- transitional for me personally, and I didn't intentionally write into these human behavior topics.
• 25:50
  I kind of figured it out later, this is a theme.
• 25:52
  This is a theme.
• 25:53
  I've been writing for a while, and I'm more, almost more recently figuring out- Yeah … what I've actually been doing.
• 25:58
  But during my times of transition, I kind of came up with this little catchphrase maybe I would call it for myself.
• 26:05
  All right.
• 26:05
  I'm here for it.
• 26:06
  No secrets, no shame.
• 26:08
  And so my first podcast episode is actually gonna be called that.
• 26:13
  And the conversations I had, I'm gonna get real personal here, at the end of my marriage with my ex-husband were born out of that idea that if we have no secrets, it takes all the shame out of what we want or how we're feeling or why we're acting certain ways.
• 26:30
  And so when he and I started talking about, like, "What do we really want out of life?" We were together for 17 years, 18 years, excuse me, and we had this actually beautiful parting of the ways because we took all the shame out of wanting something different.
• 26:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:45
  And I have taken that, or was already writing into that, I didn't realize, into my fiction to s- to think about how people act and how they might act in different scenarios.
• 26:59
  And so taking it into the fiction world, I mentioned that these characters are put in these situations, and then, like, they make the choice that might be really hyperbolic, like the choice to murder, as opposed to, you know, someone in life who knows societally it's frowned upon, morally it's frowned upon.
• 27:20
  Frowned upon.
• 27:21
  Just not- Yes.
• 27:21
  Let's, let's just say that the stance of the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast is that- Slap on the wrist.
• 27:26
  Yeah.
• 27:26
  Is that, is that murder is frowned upon.
• 27:28
  But yes.
• 27:29
  Right.
• 27:30
  Um, so they're making these extreme choices, and I almost feel when I read stories where these characters are making extreme choices, it allows me to feel better about myself for making maybe a less extreme choice- Exactly in my life.
• 27:46
  I didn't murder anybody today.
• 27:48
  I'm doing great.
• 27:49
  Exactly.
• 27:49
  Well, at least I'm not going that far, right?
• 27:52
  I like it.
• 27:52
  And, and so when you write psychological… So okay, so we don't research true crime,'cause that's, like, hugely- I cannot.
• 27:59
  Yeah.
• 28:00
  But do you choose, like, how much of it do you choose?
• 28:04
  'Cause this is something that I work on with writers when they're writing psychological thrillers.
• 28:07
  I'm like, what psychological, you know- condition does your protagonist have or your villain have and be consistent, right?
• 28:16
  So do you do that work?
• 28:18
  Yeah.
• 28:19
  What do you do in that case?
• 28:20
  I typically, I typically give my character an introspective problem and figure out how she would handle it.
• 28:28
  I think that's exactly it, and that's where the, the psychological portion of my books come in.
• 28:32
  I'm usually writing from first person POV.
• 28:35
  Like, I like the reader to experience what she's experiencing as she's experiencing it, and- And can I ask, is that- Yes … first person present, first person past?
• 28:45
  Present, yes.
• 28:46
  Yeah.
• 28:46
  Sorry, I didn't specify that.
• 28:48
  No, but I say that because, I mean, first person present is really common, and a lot of times when newer writers come to writing, they just remember their, you know, senior year in English class, and all the different perspectives, and they might pick omniscient or something really difficult.
• 29:02
  Yeah.
• 29:02
  Please don't pick omniscient.
• 29:04
  Unless it's omni-challenging.
• 29:05
  You know, it's so difficult, and it's difficult to do well, and it only is, like, 5% of the market right now.
• 29:10
  So if you're listening to this and you are like, "Oh crap, I picked omniscient," hit me up.
• 29:16
  Yeah.
• 29:16
  Write me a note.
• 29:17
  We'll have a chat about it because it might be great if you need it, and if you do it well, but it's, like, such an extra lift that you have to do that usually isn't worth it.
• 29:26
  But first person present is very common in today's, I'm gonna say psychological thriller, 'cause that's a more common, a more common genre, but psychological horror Because yeah, it's got that immediacy effect.
• 29:38
  And I might say present tense is very difficult, and there are words in the English language that actually don't make a lot of sense in present tense.
• 29:47
  Like we just- Mm … don't say them.
• 29:49
  And so that's where I find writers slip into past.
• 29:52
  But d- yeah, if it's d- if you can do it, and that's how it's coming to you, do it.
• 29:57
  If you find that difficult, then maybe don't.
• 30:01
  But yeah.
• 30:01
  Anyways, good choice.
• 30:03
  That's so… Yeah.
• 30:03
  It's so- I'm so glad you brought that up because I was just thinking that when we are having conversation, if I were sharing a story with you about my life, about my publication path or whatever it is, I would not be speaking to you in present tense.
• 30:15
  No.
• 30:15
  I'm telling you a story- You don't … that's already happened.
• 30:18
  That i- that's really true, Suzanne.
• 30:19
  Or you're, you're actually speaking- I've never thought about that … yeah, you're actually speaking, and so I'm listening as you're speaking.
• 30:24
  You're using telling and whatever.
• 30:25
  You're using, like, those, those imperfect tenses that are kind of all the time.
• 30:30
  We don't use present tense.
• 30:31
  Yeah.
• 30:31
  And there are things that are difficult, and so writers often will be, like, really frustrated when they send me the things, and then I'm like, "Hey, you slipped in tense here." Like, and my thing is keep tenses pr- I'm always non-judgmental, but it's like i- I explain every single change with my coaching clients.
• 30:47
  And so I'll say, "Keep tenses consistent," and they're like, "Ah, why can't I do that?" I'm like,"You can't because we don't use it.
• 30:54
  It's not a usual tense.
• 30:55
  It's really…" Okay, I'm gonna be punny for just a moment.
• 30:58
  It's really- Yeah … intense, right?
• 31:00
  Like, it's really intense, present tense, and we don't use it, and there are words that actually don't work, and you might have to use a different verb because nobody uses it in present tense.
• 31:10
  Yeah.
• 31:10
  That's why we need book coaches and editors such as yourself- Oh, yeah … because, and it-' Cause we see hundreds of them, okay, this is…" We normalize.
• 31:20
  Hey, I'm normalizing something, right?
• 31:22
  Yes.
• 31:22
  Thank you.
• 31:22
  We talked about it earlier in the podcast.
• 31:23
  But we're normalizing the fact that it's actually a really difficult tense, but it's really effective and worth it.
• 31:29
  Yeah.
• 31:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:29
  Worth it.
• 31:30
  Okay Cool.
• 31:31
  So in terms of human behavior, which we started this question- Back to that, right?
• 31:36
  You know, like how, how… Okay, so you're using it in present tense.
• 31:40
  We're using it so that we can be there.
• 31:42
  You're also- Mm-hmm … using a model in terms of, like, what psychological condition the person has.
• 31:49
  Anything else that you wanted to say on that?
• 31:51
  Yeah.
• 31:52
  I don't… Uh, I'm not sure.
• 31:53
  I used- I created this little, like, branding logline for myself a few years ago.
• 31:57
  I don't know if I'm still using it or not, but I'll say it anyway.
• 32:00
  That I write stories of women who are fighting against odd elements of their own psyche.
• 32:06
  Yeah.
• 32:06
  And so, t- and to me, there is a problem, and they need to tackle, like, why these thoughts or feelings are coming in.
• 32:15
  And it really, you know, is central to the character and to the book, and how she acts in every situation.
• 32:24
  So with, with Good Night Monsters coming out, my character Leah has both childhood trauma and a new pregnancy, and so those, both of those things come into play with every single decision she makes.
• 32:37
  Uh, my next book coming out, a woman gains psychic abilities, so how does that inform every decision that she's gonna make?
• 32:46
  And so it's fun to play with that, and even to consider b- bringing it back to real life, how I would act in certain scenarios, how other, how I've witnessed other people act.
• 32:59
  Yeah, all of it.
• 33:01
  Absolutely.
• 33:01
  And you know, you touched on a few of them there, but you tackle huge themes, and I love this.
• 33:06
  And one of the things that you talked about a little, a few minutes ago, and I'm just, my mind is swirling here.
• 33:11
  I wanna talk about so many things.
• 33:13
  But you said, you know, that you didn't realize that you were sort of processing these things or what you were doing as you were writing, and that is so common.
• 33:22
  And not to say that you're common, because you figured it out, but it's one of the first things that I do with a writer who sort of has a portfolio as you did, and you're trying to find your way or find your niche, and being like, "Why isn't this landing?" Or, "What am I doing here?" Like, those are common thoughts.
• 33:37
  And then all of a sudden you're like,"Oh my goodness." And the question I ask them is, "Why are you writing this particular book at this particular moment in time?" And I have them journal that out, and usually for a page.
• 33:48
  So if you're, if you're in that boat and you're like, "Okay, I have a whole bunch of things.
• 33:51
  I think I'm just writing fiction, but it's not kind of landing," or you're hearing Suzanne's stories and you're like, wow, she's so connected to what it is that she's doing and she understands it, and you just heard her say she didn't understand it for a while.
• 34:03
  If you're in that boat and you're like,"Oh, I'd love to go on Suzy's podcast, but I don't even know what I would talk about 'cause I don't know why I'm writing the thing that I'm writing," I invite you to try that exercise.
• 34:12
  Why are you writing this particular book at this particular moment in time?
• 34:15
  And if you can answer that and keep going, I don't want 10 words or 20 words or 250 words.
• 34:22
  Write a page, write two pages.
• 34:24
  Keep going, but why am I doing this?
• 34:26
  And why am I doing this?
• 34:27
  And I've had people realize, um, writers realize, and hopefully they're listening.
• 34:30
  If you are, say hello.
• 34:32
  Writers realize that the book about dragons for middle grade readers was actually about their own childhood.
• 34:36
  And writers that realize, you know, like we are, it's always personal, and the best books actually are personal, uh, in some way.
• 34:43
  It doesn't mean that you murdered people.
• 34:45
  Thank you for pointing that out, Suzanne.
• 34:47
  But it, it does mean that there's something there that you're exploring, and that's the magic of it, and that's the thing that nobody else can write Okay.
• 34:56
  Amen to that.
• 34:58
  Yeah.
• 34:58
  So you have, and you just alluded to this, you have three more books underway.
• 35:02
  You have another book coming out.
• 35:04
  First of all, tell us about your book that's coming out in the fall.
• 35:07
  Okay.
• 35:07
  Um, and then you have three more books, and what's going on there?
• 35:11
  Yeah.
• 35:12
  I have Good Night Monsters coming out in the fall, and that is the story of a woman who has been trying to get pregnant, and the moment she does, she decides she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore.
• 35:25
  And all, she ends up surrounding herself with death.
• 35:28
  So as she's carrying new life inside, she starts becoming obsessed with death.
• 35:33
  She blackmails her way into a job at a forensic anthropology center, and is working with donated dead bodies, and starts imagining of what it would, might be like, fantasizing, killing people and watching someone die.
• 35:48
  And so that is coming out September 1st through She Writes Press.
• 35:54
  And a year later, I have House of Mannequins coming out, also through She Writes Press, and that is the story of the woman who gains psychic abilities, which terrifies her at first.
• 36:04
  She doesn't know what to do with it.
• 36:06
  And she gets kind of taken under the wing of this possibly polyamorous family of psychics who show her the way, and she realizes they're doing some nefarious things with their powers as well, so she has to make some decisions there.
• 36:21
  I love it.
• 36:22
  I love it, and these are both standalone novels.
• 36:24
  It's not a series.
• 36:24
  These are standalone novels.
• 36:26
  Yeah, okay.
• 36:27
  I, yes.
• 36:28
  I'm not a series writer.
• 36:29
  I won't say never, but they are standalone.
• 36:30
  Well, when that, when Good Night Monsters comes out and it's amazing, you might be writing a sequel to that one.
• 36:36
  We'll see.
• 36:36
  We'll see.
• 36:37
  There's plenty of direction.
• 36:38
  And we'll have you back on the podcast to be like, "Suzy-" There you go.
• 36:40
  "… I said I wasn't gonna do it, but I'm gonna do it." And that, that's actually a good point, 'cause I like to show insider, share insider tips or information here, and you can say that you're not a series writer, but it's not always up to the writer.
• 36:53
  You know, She Writes works with you, and th- and that's probably gonna be, make sense, but the amount of times that I've had a writer write a quote-unquote standalone book, and, you know, s- it gets sold to a publisher, and then the contract comes and says,"You're a three-book series," right?
• 37:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:10
  And they had no intention.
• 37:11
  They signed the contract and took the advance, but they had no intention of it.
• 37:15
  Or you intend to write a series, and book one or book two doesn't do as well and doesn't get finished, right?
• 37:21
  So it doesn't always- Right … it isn't always up to you.
• 37:25
  I mean, you could say no, but there- Right … there are doors that you don't know that are gonna open, and doors that you don't know might shut, right?
• 37:32
  So you gotta be a little bit- Yeah.
• 37:34
  There was a book I read several years ago, Baby Teeth- Mm … by Zoje Stage, and- I have not read it, but it sounds absolutely cra- like creepy.
• 37:42
  I really enjoyed it.
• 37:44
  It was about a little girl who hated her mother, and how far she went to, you know, make her mother look bad, and look like an angel for her father.
• 37:52
  And I believe in the last two years, she, the author, released a book of this little girl as an adult.
• 38:00
  Mm. And I haven't, I haven't read it yet.
• 38:02
  It's on my list.
• 38:03
  My list is, like, way too long.
• 38:05
  Um- I hope it's not called Grown Up Teeth, 'cause it doesn't have the same creep factor as Baby Teeth.
• 38:10
  No, right?
• 38:10
  I think, I believe it's called Dear Hannah, but again, don't quote me on that.
• 38:12
  12-year-old molars or something.
• 38:14
  Yeah, okay.
• 38:15
  All right.
• 38:15
  Okay.
• 38:16
  Braces.
• 38:16
  Break.
• 38:18
  Braces.
• 38:18
  I think Braces, my kids have that book.
• 38:20
  It's a middle grade book.
• 38:21
  It's great.
• 38:22
  That's good.
• 38:22
  Okay.
• 38:23
  So we have reached the quick-fire portion of the podcast today.
• 38:28
  I could talk all day about this, and we probably will.
• 38:30
  Are you ready?
• 38:31
  I think I'm ready.
• 38:32
  Okay.
• 38:34
  How long did it take- This feels like a test.
• 38:36
  Yeah, it, it is.
• 38:36
  Okay.
• 38:37
  But you know the answers'cause the subject is you.
• 38:39
  How long did it take you to write your first book, from the idea to publish?
• 38:44
  Or you could say to write Goodnight Monsters, 'cause that's your first book coming out.
• 38:47
  Yeah.
• 38:48
  How long?
• 38:48
  Yeah.
• 38:48
  When, when did it first come to you?
• 38:50
  I mean, I began writing Goodnight Monsters in 2014, and it is now 2026 that it is coming to publication.
• 38:59
  You have 12 years.
• 39:00
  12 years.
• 39:00
  12 years.
• 39:01
  So those of you who are working on it- Many- That is not an unusual answer.
• 39:05
  I mean, sometimes I- And literary agents come and gone.
• 39:10
  It's a path.
• 39:11
  Yeah, and sometimes I get answers that are really short, but then when I actually ask them, "When did you first think of the book?" it's not that.
• 39:17
  So, so thank you for being honest about it.
• 39:19
  I appreciate it.
• 39:20
  Absolutely.
• 39:21
  What was your first big break, where you're like, "Okay, this is the one, and it's, it's gonna get published"?
• 39:26
  When did you know?
• 39:27
  You know what?
• 39:29
  An early mentor of mine that read Goodnight Monsters, the first iteration of it, which is totally different than it is now, it was like a complete fever dream of a story, nonlinear story.
• 39:40
  He said- "This is the best book I've read all year." And I didn't believe him at first, but i- he was a very tried and true trusted mentor, and an author himself, and a screenwriter.
• 39:54
  And eventually- We don't, we don't say that lightly, by the way.
• 39:56
  Yeah.
• 39:56
  We don't say that lightly.
• 39:58
  No, I know.
• 39:59
  He wasn't just being nice, I realized.
• 40:02
  And, um, I really appreciate him for saying that out loud.
• 40:06
  And I think that was the moment that I decided never to give up on this book, because there were lots of, quote, breaks along the way.
• 40:15
  I got my first literary agent, but then we- the book didn't sell.
• 40:18
  I got another literary agent.
• 40:20
  The book didn't sell.
• 40:21
  So there were lots of, like, ups and downs along the way, but that conversation with that mentor, it put something inside me that I decided I would never give up on that particular book.
• 40:33
  Yeah.
• 40:34
  And I love that you are publishing it with She Writes.
• 40:36
  Yeah.
• 40:36
  And the reason I say that is because, you know, these literary agents … So those of you who are querying right now, you know how hard it is to get a one agent, let alone two, for that same book, especially since it had already been shopped, right?
• 40:53
  Right.
• 40:54
  It had.
• 40:54
  Um, it's got something special, but I would imagine that it didn't sell because of that confusion over genre, right?
• 41:00
  And, and because it's an amazing book, but where does it fit?
• 41:03
  And if you're in that boat, it's difficult, but She Writes is amazing.
• 41:08
  They will pick up some of those stories that might not otherwise find a home, and let them be out there, which is so cool.
• 41:16
  So yeah.
• 41:16
  I really appreciate that opportunity.
• 41:18
  Perfect.
• 41:18
  Perfect match.
• 41:19
  Okay.
• 41:20
  What's your best advice for writers out there wanting to dive into psychological horror?
• 41:28
  I think we talked through it a little bit, is just write what you know- Yeah … and whatever is inside you, and it doesn't mean that people will think you're a murderer.
• 41:37
  Y- yeah.
• 41:38
  In real life.
• 41:38
  You might have to go on podcasts and literally say- Okay … "I did not murder." Exactly.
• 41:42
  You might have to.
• 41:43
  Yeah, I think that's amazing advice.
• 41:44
  Thank you so much, Suzanne.
• 41:45
  Thank you.
• 41:46
  This has been such a great conversation.
• 41:48
  I'm sure that we're gonna have you back on the podcast to talk through some things.
• 41:51
  If you love this conversation, ask Suzanne some questions in the comments.
• 41:56
  Go and pick up Good Night Monsters.
• 41:58
  I can't wait to read it.
• 41:59
  I'm super excited.
• 42:01
  And, uh, yeah.
• 42:02
  We'll have you on again soon.
• 42:04
  Thanks for coming.
• 42:04
  Oh, thanks, Suzy.
• 42:04
  So fun.
• 42:12
  Thanks for tuning into the Show Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori.
• 42:16
  It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or the book that you're planning to write.
• 42:22
  Please help me keep the podcast going by helping people find us.
• 42:26
  You can subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you're listening to show how much you enjoy the show.
• 42:36
  That's how other listeners will find us.
• 42:38
  Also, visit Suzyvadori.com/newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where you'll stay inspired and be the first to know about all the upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community.
• 42:53
  Want my eyes on your writing?
• 42:54
  Submit a page of your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes.
• 42:59
  I'd love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your writing goals.
• 43:09
  I'm here to cheer you on.
• 43:11
  Remember, that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
• 43:21
  See you again right here next week