Latest / The Director's Chair Network / The Untouchables - Church Scene
Transcript
- 0:00I want to get Capone. I don't know how to get him. 00:02 --> 00:04 You want to get Capone? Here's how you get him. 00:04 --> 00:07 He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. 00:07 --> 00:09 He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. 00:10 --> 00:13 That's the Chicago way. And that's how you get Capone. 00:13 --> 00:17 All right. This is an episode that I've been looking forward to. 00:17 --> 00:22 I always look forward to podcasting with my brother. 00:22 --> 00:23 I will call you my brother. 00:23 --> 00:28 Ryan, it is a pleasure to welcome you to this Brian De Palma podcast. 00:29 --> 00:32 I'm very excited. Thanks, Craig, for having me on. This is great. 00:32 --> 00:36 Yeah. So I know there were a lot of people that wanted to talk the Untouchables. 00:37 --> 00:41 And thankfully, you can say this about a lot of De Palma movies. 00:41 --> 00:46 There are multiple, multiple, multiple scenes in the Untouchables that we can talk about. 00:46 --> 00:53 And when you told me what scene you want to do, I was so excited because it was not one that I expected. 00:53 --> 00:58 But when I sat down and rewatched the movie and then rewatched the scene a handful of times, 00:59 --> 01:02 this is probably like one of the most De Palma scenes there is. 01:02 --> 01:18 So we're going to be talking about the church scene, which is basically when Malone, Sean Connery's character, and Elliot Ness sort of have their discussion about Malone joining the team to help take down Capone. 01:19 --> 01:25 And so this movie came out in June of 1987. It was Brian De Palma's 17th film. 01:25 --> 01:37 And he approached this movie coming off of two sort of underperformers, Body Double and Wise Guys, which is a return to comedy for him. 01:37 --> 01:42 And he clearly stated, I wanted to make a big Hollywood commercial film. 01:43 --> 01:43 Oh, wow. 01:43 --> 01:50 So in June of 1987, I know we were both young, you know, we were preteens or almost teenagers. 01:51 --> 02:00 But in 1987, what did the Untouchables sort of mean for you when you saw the marketing for it or when you saw it was coming out or when you eventually saw the movie? 02:00 --> 02:01 Well, I definitely saw it. 02:02 --> 02:05 If I didn't see an 87, I saw an 88 when I was like 13. 02:05 --> 02:07 At that age, I was renting. 02:07 --> 02:07 Sorry, not even renting. 02:08 --> 02:10 I was always renting films all the time. 02:10 --> 02:16 But I was buying VHS tapes from Columbia House, whatever that deal was in Columbia House. 02:17 --> 02:21 And so the Untouchables was definitely in my VHS collection, and I watched it all the time. 02:21 --> 02:31 And I dare say the Untouchables was probably the film, if I look at my age, and when I was maybe allowed to watch at such a younger age, I hadn't seen Godfather yet at that age. 02:31 --> 02:31 That's for sure. 02:31 --> 02:34 I had not seen Godfather's one or two or any of them in 88. 02:35 --> 02:38 But the Untouchables, I think, went under my parents' radar just a little bit. 02:38 --> 02:42 I don't know why, because The Godfather was a very adult film back then. 02:42 --> 02:45 I think it was still recent enough in their memory. 02:45 --> 02:47 Like, I'm not going to let my 13-year-old kid watch The Godfather. 02:47 --> 02:48 Yeah. 02:48 --> 02:52 But anyway, so I bought this film on the fact that I love Kevin Costner. 02:53 --> 02:59 And I don't know if I saw this before Dance with the Wolves, so it must have been before, because that came out in 1990, I think. 03:01 --> 03:03 Boy, I got so much good things to say about this film. 03:03 --> 03:10 So this film was probably the film, is what I'm getting at, sorry, is that got me in love with Mafia films and the Mafia storylines. 03:10 --> 03:14 I think this was my first real exposure to the Mafia film genre. 03:14 --> 03:18 I think this is the one that sold me on the fact I love Mafia stories. 03:20 --> 03:20 Yeah. 03:20 --> 03:21 And this one is really good. 03:21 --> 03:28 It was also kind of a return to the gangster or Mafia-style film for De Palma. 03:28 --> 03:30 Of course, he famously made Scarface. 03:30 --> 03:30 Yes. 03:30 --> 03:34 He would go on to make one of the greatest films of the 90s, Carlito's Way. 03:35 --> 03:35 Yeah. 03:35 --> 03:37 And this fits in really nicely with it. 03:37 --> 03:43 And the one thing is, it's a period piece that takes place in the 1930s during Prohibition. 03:43 --> 03:47 So we get all this wonderful production design. 03:48 --> 03:49 Can we talk about that really briefly? 03:49 --> 03:49 Yeah. 03:49 --> 03:50 Yeah. 03:50 --> 03:52 I know we want to keep these episodes tight. 03:52 --> 03:58 I just watched this film again, of course, last week, this last week to get ready for us talking about it. 03:58 --> 04:02 I don't know when the last time I saw it, probably 20 years. 04:02 --> 04:04 It's amazing how fast time goes. 04:05 --> 04:05 Yeah. 04:05 --> 04:08 I don't think I've watched it in 20 years at least. 04:08 --> 04:09 Certainly not on high def. 04:09 --> 04:11 So I've got a high def, of course, nowadays. 04:11 --> 04:13 But I've got a flat screen, high def TV. 04:14 --> 04:16 So this is coming in whatever it is on the streaming. 04:16 --> 04:19 And I hadn't seen this picture in high def on a big screen. 04:19 --> 04:23 It's always been on my VHS tapes, I think, quite frankly, or TV production. 04:23 --> 04:27 So watching this on high def streaming, I was like, holy crap. 04:27 --> 04:28 This is a beautiful film. 04:28 --> 04:32 Like, I can't believe how good looking this film really is. 04:32 --> 04:35 And like you're talking about the production designs, the costumes, the set pieces. 04:36 --> 04:41 This is a I'm always amazed that they're able to make Chicago look like it did. 04:41 --> 04:43 No CGI, no green screens. 04:43 --> 04:47 They did an amazing job and transported me back into a probationary Chicago. 04:48 --> 04:48 Yeah. 04:49 --> 04:57 You know, you know, finding ways to sort of cheat things and create the illusion that, you know, 04:57 --> 05:00 you're in the past is always interesting and challenging. 05:00 --> 05:05 And I've watched this movie a bunch of times in the last year because I noticed it was on 05:05 --> 05:10 Paramount Plus here in the States about a year ago. 05:10 --> 05:17 And then I got the 4K when I when I sort of upgraded to, you know, the 4K experience. 05:17 --> 05:17 Yeah. 05:18 --> 05:23 So, you know, I got the 4K probably three or four months ago and then, you know, started thinking about doing this podcast. 05:23 --> 05:25 So I watched it again. 05:25 --> 05:39 But talking about the, you know, the set design and sort of transforming Chicago, there's a couple of good, you know, sort of archival special features there. 05:39 --> 05:40 I think they're from 2004. 05:40 --> 05:44 So they're probably whenever they put out the DVD in 2004. 05:44 --> 05:53 But the bridge scene where Ness meets Malone on patrol and they have that whole discussion on the bridge. 05:53 --> 06:09 They talk about that scene because there were a bunch of modern buildings that were in the skyline and production basically convinced all of the building owners to turn off all their lights during a certain certain hours. 06:09 --> 06:18 So you got the illusion that it was just empty sky instead of the modern Chicago skyline, which, you know, you watch the movie and you don't even see that. 06:19 --> 06:23 And then they pointed out on the on the special features, which is pretty funny. 06:23 --> 06:32 But, yeah, I got to say that, you know, once again, when Brian De Palma sets his mind to something, he normally accomplishes it. 06:32 --> 06:35 Like he said, he wanted to make, you know, a big commercial Hollywood film. 06:35 --> 06:44 And I mean, this is about as big and commercial as it gets from the score to the like we said, the production design and the cast. 06:44 --> 06:52 I mean, you know, we talk about Kevin Costner now, but in 1980 in 1987, a lot of people weren't talking about Kevin Costner. 06:52 --> 06:54 And Brian De Palma was actually hesitant to hire him. 06:54 --> 06:57 And then he went and talked to a couple of people that have worked with him already. 06:57 --> 06:58 Who was it they wanted to hire originally? 06:58 --> 06:59 I can't remember. 06:59 --> 07:01 Oh, you're testing me. 07:01 --> 07:02 Oh, sorry. 07:02 --> 07:04 I read this in the trivia. 07:04 --> 07:08 It was somebody they wanted and they but Kevin got the gig. 07:08 --> 07:10 But to that effect, or maybe I'm thinking of a different production. 07:10 --> 07:11 I don't want to overthink it. 07:11 --> 07:16 But I read the same thing, essentially, that Kevin wasn't the Kevin that we know today. 07:16 --> 07:19 I'm always fascinated by the ages of actors, especially as I get older. 07:19 --> 07:20 So do you know their ages? 07:21 --> 07:22 I got their ages here. 07:22 --> 07:24 So Robert De Niro was 44. 07:24 --> 07:25 OK. 07:25 --> 07:27 He was 44 in this film. 07:27 --> 07:27 Yeah. 07:27 --> 07:29 Sean Connery was 57. 07:30 --> 07:32 And Kevin Costner was 32. 07:32 --> 07:32 Wow. 07:33 --> 07:33 Yeah. 07:34 --> 07:35 And he looked young. 07:35 --> 07:37 He's a very dashing, handsome man. 07:37 --> 07:37 Yeah. 07:37 --> 07:39 His hairline was still solid. 07:39 --> 07:39 Yeah. 07:40 --> 07:43 You know, I mean, when he started to thin out, he thinned out fast. 07:43 --> 07:45 And Garcia, I think, was 27. 07:46 --> 07:47 Oh, and oh, my God. 07:47 --> 07:51 I can't wait till you either come back to talk about another scene in this movie. 07:51 --> 07:55 Or I know Doug's going to come on at one point and talk about this movie. 07:55 --> 08:02 But Andy Garcia in this movie is just, it's a riveting performance. 08:02 --> 08:04 It's magnetic. 08:04 --> 08:08 You can't not look at him when he is on the screen in this movie. 08:08 --> 08:11 I mean, there are so many amazing sequences with Andy Garcia. 08:11 --> 08:13 But we'll leave that for another episode. 08:13 --> 08:14 Yeah. 08:14 --> 08:20 So to sort of set this film up a little bit, it's basically Hollywood fan fiction of the Al Capone 08:20 --> 08:21 takedown story. 08:22 --> 08:25 A lot of what we see here was invented for the movie. 08:25 --> 08:27 It was created for dramatic purposes. 08:27 --> 08:35 But we get a nice sort of Hollywood, big sort of style retelling of Al Capone's downfall through 08:35 --> 08:37 Elliot Ness and his team. 08:38 --> 08:44 So at the point in this movie, it's about 28 minutes into the movie where Ness has met this 08:44 --> 08:47 beat cop, Malone, played by Sean Connery. 08:47 --> 08:54 And I think this is like the third scene that they're in together where Ness is trying to, 08:55 --> 08:58 it's weird because he's kind of intrigued by Malone, I think. 08:58 --> 09:04 I think he's getting exposed to Chicago cops and the way Chicago operates. 09:04 --> 09:10 And he sees Malone as sort of a way to get into that world. 09:10 --> 09:11 Well, he's an outsider. 09:11 --> 09:13 He's part of the treasury, right? 09:13 --> 09:16 Like he's not really a cop cop in that sense. 09:16 --> 09:20 I mean, he has the authority to arrest and to basically take down Capone. 09:21 --> 09:22 He was hired to do so. 09:22 --> 09:27 But he doesn't come from the policing background of walking the beat that we see the Malone character 09:27 --> 09:29 do at that time. 09:29 --> 09:30 So Malone knows Chicago. 09:31 --> 09:33 He's the Chicago heartbeat knows how the city is run. 09:33 --> 09:35 Elliot Ness is an outsider. 09:35 --> 09:35 Yeah. 09:36 --> 09:43 So Malone finally agrees to sort of entertain the idea of joining the team. 09:44 --> 09:47 And he comes to the station right prior to this and says, let's go talk. 09:47 --> 09:48 And Ness goes where? 09:48 --> 09:50 And then we cut to the church. 09:50 --> 09:55 Now, one thing I learned, Ryan, and it wasn't until I rewatched or watched for the first time 09:55 --> 10:02 the special features on the 4K, but Sean Connery suggested this church setting. 10:02 --> 10:04 In the script, it was not at a church. 10:05 --> 10:11 And, you know, De Palma very clearly gives props to Connery for saying, hey, in a city that, 10:11 --> 10:16 you know, you know, Malone kind of alludes to the fact that there's ears everywhere, that a 10:16 --> 10:20 church would probably be the only place that you could really have a conversation like that 10:20 --> 10:22 and be able to talk freely. 10:23 --> 10:28 Now, one interesting thing about this, and I said earlier, Ryan, that this is probably 10:28 --> 10:31 like one of the most De Palma De Palma scenes there is. 10:31 --> 10:31 Right. 10:32 --> 10:33 It's basically two shots. 10:34 --> 10:34 Yes. 10:34 --> 10:40 And it looks, the one thing I love about Brian De Palma is any scene he does is not going 10:40 --> 10:43 to look like a scene. 10:43 --> 10:48 If you had given this, these pages of script, however many pages it is to any other director, 10:48 --> 10:51 you would not have gotten to see the way it turned out. 10:51 --> 10:52 Like I said, it's two shots. 10:52 --> 11:00 So we pretty much get a two shot of Connery and Costner head on with their sort of hands 11:00 --> 11:01 in the foreground. 11:01 --> 11:08 And you get that beautiful ceiling, for lack of a better word, of the church behind them. 11:08 --> 11:10 So you really see the scale of the space they're in. 11:10 --> 11:17 And then the second shot, it will cut to a sort of a side shot using the classic Brian 11:17 --> 11:22 De Palma split diopter technique where you get a hard focus for both of them. 11:22 --> 11:26 And for those that aren't aware, because I think this is the first time I'm talking about 11:26 --> 11:32 the split diopter here is it's an attachment that goes on a film camera that basically has 11:32 --> 11:33 a split lens. 11:33 --> 11:36 So it allows you to keep sharp focus on two people. 11:37 --> 11:38 At two different depths. 11:38 --> 11:39 At two different depths. 11:39 --> 11:40 Absolutely. 11:40 --> 11:47 So De Palma has used this shot or the split diopter multiple times in many movies. 11:47 --> 11:56 And the one thing that he said led to the his use of it was, as we know, De Palma loves split 11:56 --> 11:56 screens. 11:56 --> 11:58 He loves breaking things up. 11:58 --> 12:02 So you're watching two different scenes or two different actions happening at the same 12:02 --> 12:02 time. 12:03 --> 12:09 And the split diopter he saw as an opportunity to do split screen within the same sequence 12:09 --> 12:10 of actions. 12:10 --> 12:13 So the cool thing about this, especially in this scene, right? 12:13 --> 12:18 And I don't know if you picked up on it when you were watching it, but every time you watch 12:18 --> 12:24 this scene, when it cuts to the two shot of them on the side, you can decide who you're 12:24 --> 12:25 going to look at. 12:25 --> 12:25 Right. 12:25 --> 12:30 And it's almost like De Palma is letting you sort of direct the scene, if you will. 12:30 --> 12:32 Oh, that's an interesting way. 12:32 --> 12:36 Do you want to focus on Malone or do you want to focus on Nessa's reaction? 12:36 --> 12:39 And every time I rewatched this scene, I was aware of it. 12:39 --> 12:43 I was like, okay, let me sort of pull my eyes back a little bit and just watch the two of 12:43 --> 12:47 them, but then focus on one of the performances overall. 12:48 --> 12:52 Now, this is probably like a classic trailer scene as well. 12:53 --> 12:54 I think it was in the trailer. 12:54 --> 13:00 I didn't watch the trailer recently, but I'm 90% sure there's a couple of lines in this 13:00 --> 13:02 film that were in the trailer. 13:02 --> 13:05 Well, the whole how you take a bone down. 13:05 --> 13:05 Yeah. 13:05 --> 13:06 I'm alone. 13:06 --> 13:08 You know, we put one of them in the more type dialogue. 13:08 --> 13:09 I swear that was in the gym. 13:09 --> 13:09 It must have been. 13:09 --> 13:11 I mean, how could it not be? 13:12 --> 13:17 And it's a screenplay by David Mamet, who is a, you know, sort of a legendary screen. 13:17 --> 13:18 It's funny. 13:18 --> 13:18 He is. 13:18 --> 13:21 I know we're going all over the place, but I can't help it here, too. 13:21 --> 13:21 Yeah. 13:21 --> 13:21 Because you brought it. 13:21 --> 13:22 I brought it. 13:22 --> 13:25 I wanted to bring up David, too, because I looked at this filmography. 13:25 --> 13:26 That name, of course, I'm very familiar with. 13:26 --> 13:29 I've seen more than half of the films that he's credit writing. 13:30 --> 13:31 But it's funny. 13:31 --> 13:33 He has a funny record. 13:33 --> 13:35 He's a funny track record of films. 13:35 --> 13:39 I wouldn't say he has any like this is one of his better films. 13:39 --> 13:40 And that's what's crazy. 13:40 --> 13:44 If you actually look at the IMDb rating of his filmography, this is one of his rightfully. 13:44 --> 13:46 So this is one of his highest rated films. 13:46 --> 13:49 But he has an odd record, but he has a big name. 13:49 --> 13:50 I find his name is bigger than his record. 13:50 --> 13:51 I don't. 13:51 --> 13:51 Yeah. 13:51 --> 13:55 Well, he's I think he made his his his bones in as a playwright. 13:56 --> 13:56 Yes. 13:56 --> 13:57 He's a playwriter. 13:57 --> 13:57 Yeah. 13:57 --> 13:57 Yeah. 13:57 --> 14:00 So I think Hollywood probably paid the bills for a while. 14:00 --> 14:00 OK. 14:01 --> 14:04 But yeah, he's definitely an interesting. 14:04 --> 14:05 It's funny. 14:05 --> 14:07 I just watched last week. 14:08 --> 14:12 Netflix here in the States actually has a pretty good selection of classic movies. 14:12 --> 14:16 And we watched Glenn Gary Glenn Ross, which is, you know, I still haven't seen it. 14:16 --> 14:16 Yeah. 14:17 --> 14:18 Oh, I still haven't seen that film. 14:18 --> 14:19 It's a weird. 14:19 --> 14:20 It's a it's one of those films where. 14:21 --> 14:21 Yeah. 14:22 --> 14:26 I know, like some of the big dialogues, the moments, what it's about, the performance of 14:26 --> 14:27 Alec Baldwin, who I love. 14:28 --> 14:30 You know, I'm just like, why haven't I seen this film? 14:30 --> 14:30 I don't know. 14:31 --> 14:32 I just I don't know why I haven't seen it. 14:33 --> 14:36 So the fact that I saw that was one of his films, like, oh, yeah, of course, that was 14:36 --> 14:36 one of his other big films. 14:36 --> 14:39 Of course, that was probably his highest rated film and right. 14:39 --> 14:39 Oh, yeah. 14:40 --> 14:42 And I mean, that's got just an amazing cast. 14:42 --> 14:43 It's got Ed Harris. 14:44 --> 14:44 Al Pacino. 14:44 --> 14:45 Isn't he not in it? 14:45 --> 14:45 Yeah. 14:45 --> 14:46 Al Pacino. 14:46 --> 14:47 Yeah. 14:47 --> 14:49 And Jack Lemmon. 14:49 --> 14:50 That's right. 14:50 --> 14:54 Kevin Spacey, which is it's interesting to watch any. 14:54 --> 14:57 If I've seen it, it's when it first came out. 14:57 --> 14:59 Like, if I seen it, it was back in 89 or whatever. 15:00 --> 15:00 Yeah. 15:00 --> 15:01 I hadn't seen it. 15:01 --> 15:01 Probably. 15:02 --> 15:03 I believe it was 1990. 15:03 --> 15:06 I hadn't seen it probably since home video. 15:06 --> 15:09 And I was like scrolling through Netflix and I was like, oh, this is cool. 15:09 --> 15:14 But yeah, getting back to it, I think that this scene is a very mammoth scene. 15:14 --> 15:15 Oh, yeah. 15:15 --> 15:17 Because all his stuff is dialogue driven. 15:17 --> 15:19 Do you want to talk overall about. 15:19 --> 15:27 Because I think this is an important scene, too, because it kind of shapes the overall decisions that Ness starts to make over the course of the movie. 15:28 --> 15:33 And the Ness in this scene is very different than the Ness at the end of the movie. 15:34 --> 15:34 Right. 15:34 --> 15:36 Because he says it's funny. 15:36 --> 15:36 Okay. 15:36 --> 15:41 So basically, we're led to believe that Elliot Ness, the character in the film, not the real life character, but the character in the film. 15:42 --> 15:43 He's really by the book. 15:44 --> 15:45 He's a soldier for the government. 15:46 --> 15:50 He wants to do things the right way, not necessarily the Chicago way. 15:50 --> 15:58 So basically, what Malone is saying to Ness is like, look, if you want to take down Capone, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. 15:58 --> 16:01 Essentially, you're going to have to get dirty to take this guy down. 16:01 --> 16:02 You can't be clean. 16:02 --> 16:03 You can't be. 16:03 --> 16:09 Now, we're doing the right thing, but we might have to break some thumbs, twist some arms, punch some cops in the alley and get some information out of them. 16:10 --> 16:19 Like, that's like the ones that I almost picked, won't talk too much about because I'm sure somebody will, is the quote unquote interrogation scene that Malone has with the dead body there in the cabin. 16:20 --> 16:21 Yeah, yeah. 16:21 --> 16:22 Oh, boy. 16:22 --> 16:25 So I want to speak quickly on the violence of the film. 16:25 --> 16:28 Like, when I saw this as a kid, that's what shocked me. 16:28 --> 16:29 And I loved that. 16:29 --> 16:31 I love that I was shocked as a kid. 16:31 --> 16:35 I felt when I watched this film at 13 years old, I was like, holy crap. 16:35 --> 16:41 I've seen Friday the 13th films or I've seen Halloween films, slasher flicks or whatever. 16:41 --> 16:43 I'm trying to think what else I saw at that age. 16:43 --> 16:51 Like, I certainly wasn't, I was aware of blood and gore in films, but there was something visceral about the violence in Brian De Palma and in this film. 16:51 --> 16:53 It just felt like heads were truly being blown off. 16:53 --> 17:00 And when I saw the blood in the elevator and the blood on the windows, it's like, holy crap, there's so much blood. 17:00 --> 17:02 I'd forgotten just how much blood there really is. 17:02 --> 17:12 It really leaves a, he has an odd way of making it not, I don't like the term gory, but intense and bloody. 17:12 --> 17:18 But it didn't seem kitschy or over the top or unnecessary. 17:18 --> 17:21 You know, like, for example, Quentin Tarantino, one of our favorite film directors. 17:22 --> 17:26 He has, of course, the scene in Kill Bill where he chops off the head and the blood's pouring out. 17:27 --> 17:27 It's almost comical. 17:27 --> 17:28 It's just too much. 17:28 --> 17:32 Like, and Quentin does a lot of that with his films, but the violence is so crazy over the top. 17:32 --> 17:36 And when the guy gets his head blown off in the car and Pulp Fiction, like, it's almost funny. 17:37 --> 17:38 It's almost comical. 17:38 --> 17:42 Brian De Palma in this film, he makes it so visceral and real. 17:42 --> 17:44 And yeah, it's shocking. 17:44 --> 17:46 So it's shocking without the comedy. 17:46 --> 17:47 Like, there's no laughing. 17:47 --> 17:48 You're like, holy crap. 17:48 --> 17:49 This is real violence. 17:49 --> 17:50 This is real death. 17:51 --> 17:52 Yeah, I loved it. 17:52 --> 17:54 So back to the church scene. 17:54 --> 17:55 That's what Malone's saying. 17:55 --> 17:58 Like, in order for us to get it, like, we're going up against Capone. 17:58 --> 18:00 We're going to have to get our hands dirty. 18:00 --> 18:02 If he brings out a knife, you bring out a gun. 18:03 --> 18:04 If he's, what do you say? 18:04 --> 18:07 If he puts one of you guys in the hospital, put one of his in the morgue. 18:07 --> 18:07 In the morgue. 18:07 --> 18:07 That's right. 18:07 --> 18:10 Yeah, no. 18:10 --> 18:15 And I think the thing is, he's like, basically saying Capone and his crew don't play by the 18:15 --> 18:15 rules. 18:16 --> 18:16 That's right. 18:16 --> 18:20 So you can't play by the rules when you're dealing with somebody like this, because there's 18:20 --> 18:21 no way for you to win. 18:22 --> 18:24 Now, but Ness does answer the offer. 18:24 --> 18:28 So Malone says, you know, I'm offering you this. 18:28 --> 18:30 Like, basically, I'm going to offer you this world. 18:30 --> 18:31 You're going to follow my lead. 18:31 --> 18:34 So to speak my advice, I'm offering you this way. 18:34 --> 18:36 This is the Chicago way. 18:36 --> 18:38 I will show you Ness the Chicago way. 18:39 --> 18:42 And Ness takes the blood oath, which we can talk about as well. 18:42 --> 18:49 But after the just before the blood oath, Ness says something to the effect of I'll do whatever 18:49 --> 18:51 I need to do by the book. 18:51 --> 18:53 I swore within the boundaries of the law. 18:53 --> 18:53 Yeah. 18:53 --> 18:55 So he still says that. 18:55 --> 18:55 So why? 18:56 --> 18:58 That's the one part of the scene I find. 18:58 --> 18:58 I want to say confusing. 18:59 --> 19:05 Does Ness knows what Malone's saying, but he still verbalizes what he does. 19:05 --> 19:07 Does he kind of know even by saying that that's not going to happen? 19:08 --> 19:09 Like, you get what I'm saying? 19:09 --> 19:09 I think so. 19:09 --> 19:16 Because I think Malone pretty much understands at that point that Ness is going to sort of 19:16 --> 19:19 be he's going to have to be nudged into whatever they do. 19:20 --> 19:27 And I think he's basically saying, you know, on the record, I have to say that I want to 19:27 --> 19:28 do everything by the book. 19:29 --> 19:33 But earlier in the conversation, he says, I don't know what to do. 19:33 --> 19:33 Right. 19:33 --> 19:34 And I need you to help me. 19:35 --> 19:40 So I think there's a lot of sort of reading between the lines during this conversation between 19:40 --> 19:41 the two of them. 19:42 --> 19:47 And without explicitly saying, yeah, we're going to we're going to we're going to work outside 19:47 --> 19:48 the boundaries of the law. 19:49 --> 19:53 They come to an understanding that they're that they're going to do what they do. 19:53 --> 19:56 And Ness is going to try and do it to the best of his ability. 19:56 --> 20:02 But he knows that Malone is is going to be sort of the the bulldog, for lack of a better 20:02 --> 20:03 word. 20:03 --> 20:03 Yeah. 20:03 --> 20:06 And and what I also like, though, and I'm glad they didn't belabor the point. 20:06 --> 20:10 That's the last time Ness kind of verbalizes that battle. 20:10 --> 20:14 So he says it one last time in the church, shakes the hands on the bottle. 20:14 --> 20:17 But we never really hear about that internal battle that he may or may not be having. 20:17 --> 20:18 It's never expressed to Malone. 20:19 --> 20:20 He never tells Malone to calm down. 20:21 --> 20:22 But I do remember any of that. 20:22 --> 20:25 I don't think there's any kind of like, no, we got to we got to slow down Malone. 20:25 --> 20:26 We're taking it too far. 20:26 --> 20:30 He falls Malone's leave when they go to the bank, for example, to get the alcohol bus. 20:30 --> 20:31 He even says, are you sure? 20:32 --> 20:33 And then Malone says, well, yeah. 20:33 --> 20:37 But, you know, once we bust down this door that he gives Ness that one last warning. 20:37 --> 20:38 Yeah, there's no point in no return. 20:39 --> 20:39 Yeah. 20:39 --> 20:39 Yeah. 20:40 --> 20:41 So the other thing. 20:43 --> 20:43 Sorry. 20:43 --> 20:50 It's great that Sean Connery suggested the church because I think this is a symbology there because a church is used for a couple of things. 20:50 --> 20:55 The church is used to confess your sins and to change your ways, to repent or to become a different person. 20:55 --> 21:00 And so I find a great analogy for the Ness character and for the Malone character, in a sense. 21:00 --> 21:05 Malone uses the church to find strength and courage again because that's why he says God hates a coward. 21:05 --> 21:10 Because up to this point, Malone had been hiding from danger. 21:10 --> 21:12 Even though he's a great cop, he's a great beat cop. 21:12 --> 21:18 But he says, you know, the reason why I'm a 57-year-old beat cop all these years is because I'm afraid to put myself in danger. 21:18 --> 21:19 Like I do my job, do my beat. 21:20 --> 21:23 The first rule of being a cop is to go home, to go home safely and alive. 21:23 --> 21:30 But he focused so much on being alive that he didn't do much good in the city more than he was capable of doing because he didn't put himself in danger. 21:31 --> 21:33 So that was his kind of cross to bear. 21:33 --> 21:37 Great cop in that sense, but so safe that he didn't do anything risky. 21:37 --> 21:42 Thus, you know, great risk, great rewards that the city didn't change much under his ability to be a better cop. 21:42 --> 21:43 And Ness is on the opposite side. 21:43 --> 21:45 Ness is such a straight arrow, straight shooter. 21:46 --> 21:47 You know, he's a soldier for the government. 21:47 --> 21:50 So he would put himself at risk within the bounds of the law. 21:50 --> 21:58 So really what you got here is you got these two people in the church receiving courage and strength from God, you could argue, for Malone. 21:59 --> 22:08 And then at the same time, you almost have the Ness character preemptively asking for forgiveness for the sins he's going to commit later in the film. 22:08 --> 22:10 Yeah, that's an excellent point. 22:10 --> 22:19 And I love the fact that De Palma made a point to talk about that in the interview he did that's on the home video release. 22:20 --> 22:24 Because a lot of directors, you know, won't go out of their way to give people credit for things. 22:24 --> 22:37 And I think De Palma is a smart enough filmmaker to know that when you hire Sean Connery, he's going to bring with him all of the experience and knowledge he has from his, you know, decades of making films prior to that. 22:37 --> 22:39 And it's funny. 22:39 --> 22:48 One thing that struck me when I rewatched this film for the first time like a year ago was, I don't know if you, if you, how familiar you are with that movie, Trainspotting. 22:48 --> 22:49 I haven't seen it. 22:50 --> 22:51 The reason being in it is real quick. 22:51 --> 22:54 The reason why is I'm not a big fan of drug movies. 22:54 --> 23:00 Like when it's drug, when it's just a drug film, like Fear and Lonely in Las Vegas, Trainspotting. 23:00 --> 23:00 Yeah. 23:00 --> 23:04 When it's just like, I love like drug buzz, like, you know, what's that? 23:04 --> 23:05 Sicario. 23:05 --> 23:05 Yeah. 23:06 --> 23:08 That's, that's, that's a different kind of like, that's different. 23:08 --> 23:14 But when the, when the characters are just on drugs, I just, I have a hard time with just watching people on drugs. 23:15 --> 23:15 Yeah. 23:15 --> 23:15 For the whole film. 23:16 --> 23:17 Anyway, so I haven't seen it. 23:17 --> 23:17 Yeah. 23:18 --> 23:20 But I know I'm very familiar with a lot of the scenes from it, of course. 23:20 --> 23:21 But yeah. 23:21 --> 23:23 Well, not to sidetrack things, but it's very funny. 23:24 --> 23:25 Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. 23:25 --> 23:27 It's since become one of my favorite books. 23:27 --> 23:28 I knew that. 23:28 --> 23:29 I knew that about you. 23:29 --> 23:34 No, but when I saw that in the theater for the first time, I had not read the book and I absolutely hated the movie. 23:35 --> 23:35 Okay. 23:35 --> 23:40 I said, oh my God, this is just two people acting insane and without repercussions. 23:42 --> 23:45 But that movie turned around on me in subsequent rewatches. 23:45 --> 23:48 And after reading the book, but, but we'll go down that road. 23:48 --> 23:48 Probably. 23:49 --> 23:50 Who knows? 23:50 --> 23:50 Do your fear. 23:51 --> 23:52 Or do my Terry Gilliam. 23:53 --> 23:53 Yeah. 23:53 --> 23:54 I was going to say Terry Gilliam podcast. 23:54 --> 23:54 Yeah. 23:55 --> 24:00 But no, in Trainspotting, there's a scene where two characters talk about untouchables and they talk about. 24:00 --> 24:01 Oh, how. 24:03 --> 24:07 How Sean Connery didn't deserve the awards he got for this movie. 24:08 --> 24:09 Yes, he did get an Oscar. 24:09 --> 24:11 You know, I'd forgotten that until we read the trivia. 24:12 --> 24:14 I'd forgotten he won his only Oscar with this film. 24:14 --> 24:15 So you don't think he should have won it. 24:15 --> 24:16 Why don't, why, why? 24:16 --> 24:23 I'd have to go back and watch the scene, but I think they give him a hard time for his accent because he didn't really drop his accent. 24:24 --> 24:33 But no, I mean, every time I've rewatched this movie, I've watched it through the lens of saying, okay, I need to defend Connery winning this award. 24:33 --> 24:43 And it's, I mean, 28 minutes into the film, we've got our answer because this scene alone, I think is an award winning performance for him. 24:44 --> 24:45 Well, think of what a supporting actor is. 24:45 --> 24:46 He won supporting actor. 24:46 --> 24:46 Yeah. 24:46 --> 24:47 What a supporting actor means. 24:47 --> 24:48 Sometimes we forget what it means. 24:49 --> 24:50 You're supporting the main actor. 24:50 --> 24:52 You're supporting the film. 24:52 --> 24:54 You're not quote unquote the main character, though. 24:54 --> 24:56 He's the majority of the film. 24:56 --> 24:56 Yeah. 24:56 --> 24:58 That's a huge role. 24:58 --> 25:08 Like that's probably, I would argue, I wonder how much screen time ratio he has for supporting actor compared to other actor winners, supporting actor winners, because he's on the screen so much in this film. 25:09 --> 25:11 But he supports Costner and the film itself. 25:11 --> 25:13 It rides on Connery's performance. 25:13 --> 25:19 In fact, I remember thinking that Pacino, Pacino, sorry, that De Niro's performance as Al Capone was the highlight. 25:19 --> 25:29 And rewatching it, I loved De Niro, but I felt even his performance was a little bit a caricature of Capone. 25:30 --> 25:36 And where I felt like Sean Connery's performance was truly a great supporting performance. 25:36 --> 25:39 And I actually forgot about the accent, Kefuffle. 25:39 --> 25:42 It didn't bother me at all because to me, Connery just has an accent. 25:42 --> 25:43 So whatever, wherever he's from, I don't care. 25:44 --> 25:45 You're from Ireland, Scotland, England. 25:45 --> 25:46 I don't care. 25:46 --> 25:47 You're a cop and you're a cop in Chicago. 25:47 --> 25:48 Who cares? 25:48 --> 25:49 Your accent is going to be different now. 25:50 --> 25:50 Yeah. 25:50 --> 25:54 Well, and the funny thing about accents is, you know, there's two ways to go about it. 25:54 --> 26:02 If you're going to do the accent or if you're going to get rid of your accent and do an authentic accent, you better be bulletproof. 26:02 --> 26:02 Yeah. 26:02 --> 26:11 You know, you better be doing like a Christian Bale level performance where you've completely taken on, you know, that regional accent. 26:11 --> 26:13 And there's not a lot of actors that do it. 26:13 --> 26:16 And there's plenty of movies where, you know, you'll see an actor. 26:17 --> 26:20 There'll be whole chunks of the movie where they're in the accent. 26:20 --> 26:22 And then other ones where you see it slip. 26:22 --> 26:28 A perfect example is like Keanu Reeves in The Devil's Advocate, where he's supposed to be this Southern lawyer. 26:28 --> 26:29 Or Kevin Costner in Robin Hood. 26:29 --> 26:30 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 26:30 --> 26:31 He's like, oh, forget this. 26:32 --> 26:33 So I think it's an approach you take. 26:33 --> 26:37 And I think De Palma probably isn't worried about that because. 26:37 --> 26:39 He just got a good performance out of Sean Connery. 26:39 --> 26:39 Yeah. 26:39 --> 26:46 Most people aren't going to question why a lifetime Chicago cop's going to have that accent. 26:46 --> 26:46 Who cares? 26:47 --> 26:53 You know, it's the same it's the same way we look at movies where like, you know, Nazis are speaking English. 26:53 --> 26:56 You know, you just want to you're watching the story. 26:56 --> 26:56 You're not. 26:56 --> 26:58 I don't watch for authenticity. 26:58 --> 26:59 I'm actually just watching the story. 26:59 --> 27:00 Exactly. 27:00 --> 27:08 And I think, again, at the end of the day, that's one of De Palma's strengths is a lot of times he wants us to know that we're watching a movie. 27:08 --> 27:14 And he uses techniques that make it obvious that we're watching a movie. 27:14 --> 27:15 And it's it's an approach. 27:15 --> 27:18 It's, you know, different filmmakers have different approaches. 27:18 --> 27:25 But De Palma is is very, very, you know, focused on telling an interesting visual style. 27:26 --> 27:28 And again, that's one of the main things I love about him. 27:29 --> 27:34 And again, why I loved when you chose this scene, because it's got it's it's two shots. 27:34 --> 27:34 Yeah. 27:34 --> 27:38 And again, any other would have had multiple coverage. 27:38 --> 27:38 Right. 27:38 --> 27:41 Showing people coming in and out of the church. 27:41 --> 27:43 Maybe a single overshot. 27:43 --> 27:43 Yeah. 27:43 --> 27:44 Yeah. 27:44 --> 27:45 That far away. 27:45 --> 27:47 Then now you're close where there's I don't even know where they are in the church. 27:48 --> 27:49 Are the fifth row, sixth row? 27:49 --> 27:49 It's never indicated. 27:50 --> 27:50 Right. 27:50 --> 27:51 It doesn't matter. 27:51 --> 27:58 And and almost the way he covers this scene is it's almost like we're there kneeling down next to them. 27:58 --> 27:58 Yes. 27:59 --> 28:00 We're listening in. 28:00 --> 28:00 Yeah. 28:00 --> 28:02 Because this is a private conversation. 28:02 --> 28:03 So nobody. 28:03 --> 28:07 So we as an audience have to listen in closely with them because nobody can hear this conversation. 28:07 --> 28:07 Yeah. 28:07 --> 28:20 And again, I think that's a great, great sort of skill that De Palma has is he'll take even a scene as simple as two people talking and make it visually interesting. 28:21 --> 28:24 And not many other filmmakers do that. 28:24 --> 28:27 And actually, I don't know if you picked up in this movie or not. 28:27 --> 28:28 There's a scene. 28:29 --> 28:30 Is it this movie? 28:30 --> 28:33 I've watched so much De Palma over the last two weeks. 28:33 --> 28:35 But there's a scene where they're revolving around a table. 28:35 --> 28:36 Yes, there was the table. 28:36 --> 28:37 Yeah, there. 28:37 --> 28:37 I noticed that too. 28:38 --> 28:39 Where Ness's team, right? 28:39 --> 28:41 Before the just before the photo was taken. 28:41 --> 28:41 Yeah. 28:42 --> 28:43 Reservoir Dogs. 28:43 --> 28:46 That's the opening of Reservoir Dogs when they're at the center. 28:46 --> 28:48 Oh, so he's so Quentin took that from. 28:48 --> 28:51 Well, Tarantino's a huge De Palma fan. 28:51 --> 28:52 Oh, no, I don't mean that as a bad thing. 28:52 --> 28:52 Yeah. 28:52 --> 28:52 Yeah. 28:52 --> 28:55 We know that he does do that, that he'll get. 28:55 --> 28:55 Yeah. 28:56 --> 28:57 But I never made that connection before. 28:58 --> 29:00 I wonder when that was done before Brian. 29:00 --> 29:02 I wonder how many films did that technique. 29:02 --> 29:05 Because I noticed it looking very. 29:05 --> 29:07 Oh, I've seen this in an 87. 29:07 --> 29:10 Because as a 2024 viewer, it's done all the time now. 29:10 --> 29:13 But I'm watching this film knowing it's made in an 87. 29:13 --> 29:15 I'm thinking, I don't know if that was familiar. 29:15 --> 29:15 Yeah. 29:15 --> 29:19 And the other thing, and I'm sure hopefully we'll talk about that scene with somebody else. 29:20 --> 29:29 But when you watch a scene like that, not only is the camera operator have to be completely on point with where they are. 29:29 --> 29:34 But there's a point where the camera swings around right when Garcia starts to say a line. 29:35 --> 29:35 Yes. 29:35 --> 29:38 I mean, the actors have to be on point all the time between camera and actors. 29:38 --> 29:39 Yeah. 29:39 --> 29:40 And that's great. 29:40 --> 29:49 It's I think a lot of times you don't see stuff like that because it takes a shitload of planning and everybody's got to deliver. 29:50 --> 29:55 And again, I think De Palma is one of those handful of filmmakers that's like, this is what we're doing. 29:56 --> 29:56 Everybody learn. 29:57 --> 29:58 Learn your part. 29:58 --> 29:59 Hit your marks. 29:59 --> 30:01 And, you know, let's get it done and move on. 30:02 --> 30:12 And it's funny, you know, because on a previous episode, we talked about Snake Eyes and that, you know, 13 and a half minute long opening shot, which is all about people hitting their marks. 30:12 --> 30:20 So, again, that's something I really, really respect about De Palma as a filmmaker is, you know, there's, you know, there's an easy way to do things. 30:20 --> 30:22 And then there's the De Palma way to do things. 30:23 --> 30:23 Yeah. 30:23 --> 30:25 It was a fun rewatch. 30:25 --> 30:37 So when you decided to do this podcast, had me on for a scene, I was just excited just to watch The Untouchables again because and the watch into the eyes of an older adult now and understanding what filmmakers bring to films. 30:37 --> 30:41 And it's a beautifully shot film, wonderfully directed. 30:42 --> 30:44 And I love Kevin Costner and I love Sean. 30:44 --> 30:46 This whole movie is the cast alone and De Niro's performance. 30:47 --> 30:47 It's great. 30:47 --> 30:49 It's just so Robert De Niro. 30:49 --> 30:55 It's almost like they say, hey, Robert De Niro, go unplug because he just or unhinged story because he just got to do all his Robert De Niro. 30:55 --> 30:55 Yeah. 30:55 --> 30:58 The frowny face, the head bopping, the mafia. 30:58 --> 31:01 I think he just had fun being a full on mafia guy. 31:01 --> 31:02 But, yeah, fantastic film. 31:02 --> 31:04 And I know our times are running short here. 31:04 --> 31:04 So, yeah. 31:05 --> 31:06 No, no, this was perfect. 31:07 --> 31:12 Again, being able to talk the, you know, it's like a two and a half minute long scene, I think. 31:12 --> 31:14 Church sequence between Malone and that long. 31:15 --> 31:16 Maybe two and a half. 31:16 --> 31:17 Yeah. 31:17 --> 31:18 It's not a very long scene. 31:18 --> 31:19 Yeah. 31:19 --> 31:35 But, again, I think as part of a podcast that is showcasing why De Palma is one of the greatest American filmmakers of all time, this is a scene that you can present in your – as evidence or as exhibit or whatever in his filmography. 31:35 --> 31:42 So, Ryan, I wanted to thank you for taking the time to sit down and talk this scene from The Untouchables with me. 31:42 --> 31:49 I know a lot of people that probably listen to my podcasts or podcasts that we do together know what you do. 31:49 --> 31:53 But, please, let everybody who's listening know about your podcasts. 31:53 --> 31:57 And I will put relevant links in the show notes so they can go find those. 31:58 --> 32:06 Well, big thing is, of course, Craig and I do a Sylvester Sloan film podcast together called the Sylvester Sloan Podcast Network Show. 32:06 --> 32:10 And then I do a Rocking Rambo podcast, which Craig will link. 32:11 --> 32:14 And I also do a podcast called The Worst of the Best Podcast, which Craig will link. 32:14 --> 32:15 I know it sounds like a lot, but you've got to understand. 32:15 --> 32:16 I've been doing this for like six or seven years. 32:16 --> 32:17 I've got all these little projects. 32:18 --> 32:21 And I have a new side project coming up inspired by you. 32:21 --> 32:21 Yeah. 32:21 --> 32:22 This is what I'm doing. 32:22 --> 32:24 So, totally – I'm Quentin Tarantino-ing you here. 32:25 --> 32:26 I'm stealing from you. 32:27 --> 32:30 And, yeah, I thought it's a fantastic idea because I wanted to do another show. 32:31 --> 32:32 And I was like, well, what do I do? 32:32 --> 32:35 I kind of want to do something else, like something out of what I'm doing right now. 32:35 --> 32:37 I want to do something fresh. 32:38 --> 32:39 And I've had a bunch of different ideas. 32:39 --> 32:48 I'm like, yeah, I like the idea of just looking at a director because you can do different – because a director will do different films, whether it could be a Western, a Mafia film, comedy, whatever it might be. 32:48 --> 32:51 And one of my favorite directors, someone I've truly enjoyed over the years is Ed Zwick. 32:52 --> 32:54 So, I'm doing an Ed Zwick film podcast. 32:54 --> 32:57 So, at the time of this release, maybe my first episode will be out. 32:57 --> 32:59 But, Craig, you are going to be coming on to that as well. 32:59 --> 33:00 I think you're doing – 33:00 --> 33:00 Reacher. 33:00 --> 33:01 I think you never look back. 33:01 --> 33:02 You think you're doing Jack Reacher. 33:02 --> 33:03 Yeah, you're doing Jack Reacher. 33:04 --> 33:05 So, that's mine. 33:05 --> 33:07 I'm going to be a little bit the same idea. 33:07 --> 33:09 But we are – each episode will be – 33:09 --> 33:09 Long Form. 33:10 --> 33:11 Long Form, the movie. 33:11 --> 33:13 The one movie, that's it. 33:13 --> 33:18 And so, it's going to be kind of like a miniseries podcast where it's – I think he's got 13 films. 33:18 --> 33:19 He's got a couple more coming up. 33:19 --> 33:20 But it's going to be one film, one episode. 33:20 --> 33:22 So, it's like a miniseries podcast series. 33:22 --> 33:22 Yeah. 33:22 --> 33:23 Awesome. 33:23 --> 33:23 Can't wait. 33:23 --> 33:26 And again, I will put all the relevant links in the show notes. 33:26 --> 33:30 And Ryan, once again, thank you so much for sitting down and talking to Pama with me. 33:31 --> 33:32 You bet. Thank you. 33:32 --> 34:02 Thank you.