Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: Filmmaker Josh Zeman was looking for missing women. He had no idea just how close the Killer was

Transcript

Killer Thriller Docu: Filmmaker Josh Zeman was looking for missing women. He had no idea just how close the Killer was · Legally Brunette

0:13
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller. Uh So, today
0:18
Speaker 1: we are talking about what began with the discovery of
0:20
Speaker 1: several bodies along a quiet stretch of Gilgo Beach, Long Island,
0:25
Speaker 1: soon became one of the most unsettling mysteries in true crime.
0:30
Speaker 1: So filmmaker Josh Zeeman and Rachel Mills sha do that again,
0:37
Speaker 1: Josh Zeemon or Zaemon Zeman, Okay. But for filmmaker Josh
0:41
Speaker 1: Zemon and Rachel Mills, the deeper they investigated, the more
0:44
Speaker 1: they realized that this was not just a story of
0:47
Speaker 1: one serial killer. It was a story of victims whose
0:50
Speaker 1: disappearance had been overlooked, families still searching for answers, and
0:53
Speaker 1: a system that had left too many questions unanswered. We
0:58
Speaker 1: are going to talk to the director Josh today, which
1:02
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to do. This was an unbelievable documentary
1:07
Speaker 1: and really highlighted how certain victims in our society are overlooked.
1:14
Speaker 1: In this case, the victims were sex workers. So let's
1:18
Speaker 1: bring Josh in. He worked on this documentary for a
1:22
Speaker 1: long time. It took him to different states, different murders,
1:26
Speaker 1: so let's bring him in. Hello, Josh Zeman, Hi, how
1:30
Speaker 1: are you Hi, Thank you for joining.
1:32
Speaker 2: Us, Thanks for having me, much appreciated.
1:34
Speaker 1: Thank what an incredible documentary you and Rachel put together.
1:38
Speaker 2: Wow, oh, thank you.
1:40
Speaker 1: Really captivating and crazy. And I see behind you the
1:46
Speaker 1: Son of Sam poster and I know you did a
1:48
Speaker 1: documentary on that as well, but that I was living
1:51
Speaker 1: on Long Island, really yeah, and I used to I
1:55
Speaker 1: remember just as a little girl, I must have been
1:57
Speaker 1: four or five, but being so scared when my mother
1:59
Speaker 1: left the house because I remember he hunted right like
2:03
Speaker 1: was it young woman with long hair?
2:04
Speaker 3: Not that this is about that particular documentary, but.
2:07
Speaker 2: Brown hair brand, well it is.
2:09
Speaker 4: It is relevant because the fiftieth anniversary of the Son
2:12
Speaker 4: of Sam shootings is coming up in nineteen seventy seven,
2:16
Speaker 4: so you know, the fiftieth year anniversary, and the first shooting,
2:19
Speaker 4: which actually happened in nineteen seventy six, is happened on
2:23
Speaker 4: the twenty ninth of July, so we're about to come
2:27
Speaker 4: up on that anniversary. And I think that it's been
2:29
Speaker 4: fifty years, which is amazing. And these are just part
2:32
Speaker 4: of the stories, the lore that we have in you know,
2:36
Speaker 4: New York City of unique.
2:38
Speaker 3: Crimes, well like the go Go Beach murders. And are
2:40
Speaker 3: you a Long Island boy?
2:41
Speaker 2: Is that.
2:43
Speaker 3: I'm guessing?
2:44
Speaker 2: Yes.
2:45
Speaker 4: I was born in Long Island, Jewish And although I
2:47
Speaker 4: moved to Staten Island and I did another movie about
2:50
Speaker 4: that called Cropsy, I spent some time in Long Island
2:54
Speaker 4: and my parents lived in Long Island.
2:55
Speaker 2: It's just Long Island. If you're from New York, you
2:57
Speaker 2: know Long Island is part of who you are.
3:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I was.
3:01
Speaker 1: We moved when I was nine, but I was living
3:02
Speaker 1: on Long Island until then. Well Westbury and Jericho, Oh yeah, yeah,
3:08
Speaker 1: how about.
3:08
Speaker 4: You Seacliff, which is a nice little town up on
3:12
Speaker 4: the north Shore. It was there till I was eight,
3:14
Speaker 4: and then my dad moved back to Port Jefferson, Yeah,
3:19
Speaker 4: which is not actually, which is kind of right in
3:21
Speaker 4: the middle. And Long Island is just the source of
3:23
Speaker 4: so many interesting myths and lore streams.
3:26
Speaker 3: Right, agreed. Thing started out, yes, right, right.
3:30
Speaker 1: Right, all right, So let me try to focus here.
3:34
Speaker 1: I want to talk about this incredible documentary. What drew
3:37
Speaker 1: you to besides being from Long Island, what drew you
3:41
Speaker 1: to the Gilgo Beach murders.
3:43
Speaker 4: Well, at the time, so we did a documentary series
3:46
Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen called the Killing Season. At the time,
3:51
Speaker 4: it was incredible to us that here was that's.
3:54
Speaker 1: What we're talking about, by the way today, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
3:57
Speaker 1: two thousand. It's a long time ago, I know when
3:59
Speaker 1: you made it, and it's crazy what's happened recently.
4:01
Speaker 4: Right, It all becomes relative, And that's the interesting thing
4:04
Speaker 4: about being a documentary filmmaker, you know. But at the time,
4:08
Speaker 4: we were talking about the murders of at least ten
4:11
Speaker 4: individuals found in this kind of trophy garden on Long Island.
4:16
Speaker 4: It was somewhat out of a movie, you know, the
4:20
Speaker 4: way in which this serial killer had emerged, the Go
4:22
Speaker 4: Go Beach serial killer. But it was the fact that
4:25
Speaker 4: the police weren't talking to anybody. They weren't talking to
4:28
Speaker 4: the families, they weren't talking to the public about what
4:31
Speaker 4: was going on when there's so many victims, and this
4:33
Speaker 4: was all happening in the shadow of New York City.
4:36
Speaker 2: So that just seemed inconceivable to us.
4:39
Speaker 4: How this wasn't a bigger story, and how these victims
4:43
Speaker 4: weren't being truble.
4:45
Speaker 3: Brought it to you.
4:46
Speaker 1: How did you all of a sudden like why as
4:49
Speaker 1: a documentarian, as a filmmaker, what about that? Because nobody
4:55
Speaker 1: else was really keyed into it. It feels like because
4:58
Speaker 1: they the victims were a certain type a woman.
5:00
Speaker 2: Right, sex workers for sex worker, But.
5:03
Speaker 1: What made you so aware of that and want like
5:06
Speaker 1: what made you want to focus on it when so
5:07
Speaker 1: many didn't.
5:08
Speaker 4: Because they didn't understand it? Because I didn't understand why
5:10
Speaker 4: people weren't talking about it. How can you talk about this? Yeah,
5:13
Speaker 4: a horrific tragedy of these women. And obviously, as a filmmaker,
5:18
Speaker 4: I'm very much into crime, true crime, but I'm also
5:21
Speaker 4: into true crime with an eye towards broken systems because
5:25
Speaker 4: I think that's what sparks a lot of true crime,
5:28
Speaker 4: and we don't really talk about that. At the time,
5:30
Speaker 4: we hadn't talked about that, and the time, we hadn't
5:32
Speaker 4: talked about the misogyny or you know, the prejudice around
5:36
Speaker 4: these victims. I mean, you know, just because they're sex workers,
5:40
Speaker 4: you know, and many of them didn't choose work. Sometimes
5:43
Speaker 4: it was survival work, not sex work. It survival work.
5:46
Speaker 3: Trying to pay either way, I don't think it matters, yeah, right, relevant.
5:50
Speaker 4: And so these were people just trying to you know,
5:52
Speaker 4: live the American dream and at the time, the economics
5:55
Speaker 4: were horrible. Also, we had the opioid epidemic that was
6:00
Speaker 4: burning through the United States, and so it was an
6:02
Speaker 4: important thing. But there was another interesting factor here. A
6:05
Speaker 4: lot of these crimes happened via the Internet, via Backpage
6:10
Speaker 4: and Craigslist. So this was a new way in which
6:14
Speaker 4: we're seeing this very age old story, right, almost like
6:18
Speaker 4: Jack the Ripper, you know, a killer going after these
6:20
Speaker 4: vulnerable victims, sex workers, but now using the internet. And
6:24
Speaker 4: a lot of people thought at the time that the
6:26
Speaker 4: Internet would make this all safer, but it actually, right,
6:30
Speaker 4: far more dangerous. That added another layer of anonymity that
6:33
Speaker 4: was really terrifying.
6:35
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I had never even heard of Backpage
6:37
Speaker 1: until I watched the documentary, and obviously I've heard of Craigslust,
6:44
Speaker 1: but I remember, you know, this is this is going
6:46
Speaker 1: back quite a while, and right like that was the
6:49
Speaker 1: idea that the Internet was going to, you know, make
6:51
Speaker 1: things safer. But I remember telling my kids, telling my kids,
6:54
Speaker 1: even though that was the big fear, right that they
6:55
Speaker 1: were going to be contacted by some pedophile. Yes, they
7:00
Speaker 1: wouldn't know it, and and obviously that was but that
7:02
Speaker 1: was sort of the focus. I feel like it was
7:04
Speaker 1: more about kids getting you know, contacted and making bad
7:09
Speaker 1: mistakes as opposed to these adult women that were doing
7:11
Speaker 1: it for a living. Right, they were putting their profiles
7:14
Speaker 1: up on what you know, backpage or Craigslist to make money,
7:18
Speaker 1: you know, to find guys that would whatever they were,
7:20
Speaker 1: they were prostitutes. And but yeah, that part of it
7:26
Speaker 1: is very interesting to me in the way also that
7:30
Speaker 1: the serial killers could not just in Gilgi Beach.
7:34
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, these men could find these they could go
7:36
Speaker 4: shopping on the internet for the perfect victim, and and
7:39
Speaker 4: that becomes very terrifying. And everybody thought, originally, oh, he's
7:42
Speaker 4: going to get caught so soon because of the internet.
7:45
Speaker 4: Be oh the IP, We're going to be able to
7:47
Speaker 4: track the IP and just real, real life is not
7:49
Speaker 4: an episode of uh, you know TV.
7:52
Speaker 2: It's not you know, homicide on the street or whatever.
7:55
Speaker 2: So that was it.
7:57
Speaker 4: And then but there was another layer, which was the
8:00
Speaker 4: fact that the police weren't talking to these victims families
8:04
Speaker 4: and they weren't right seemingly letting the public.
8:07
Speaker 1: Know, right, So I couldn't Yeah, I couldn't get over it.
8:10
Speaker 1: How neither conflected right.
8:13
Speaker 3: Even and especially I loved how you.
8:15
Speaker 1: Connected with so many of the families and introduced us,
8:18
Speaker 1: you know, as viewers to them. There were so many
8:22
Speaker 1: that where my heart was just breaking for them. But
8:25
Speaker 1: you know, specifically, God, I'm gonna forget her name.
8:27
Speaker 2: The daughter Amanda, yes, yeah, who.
8:31
Speaker 3: Went with you guys and really wanted to be part.
8:34
Speaker 2: Of oh I know you're talking about in Dayton.
8:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, and wanted to help because she felt
8:39
Speaker 1: like she was never helped, like this happened to her
8:42
Speaker 1: mother when she was young, and that was it. There
8:45
Speaker 1: was no follow up, there was no search, there was nothing.
8:48
Speaker 1: And the way that she articulated that, I just thought
8:51
Speaker 1: it was incredible and brave. And so many of these
8:54
Speaker 1: families that came, you know forward, and a lot of
8:57
Speaker 1: them had been also affected by drugs and you know,
9:01
Speaker 1: were sex workers as well, and but you got to
9:04
Speaker 1: see the humanity of it and so upsetting that these
9:07
Speaker 1: cases were ignored.
9:09
Speaker 4: It's like there, but go for the there for sure
9:13
Speaker 4: for sure, and any one of us could could find
9:17
Speaker 4: ourselves in any one of those situations.
9:20
Speaker 2: So it was also that part of it.
9:22
Speaker 4: But then there was another very interesting thing because because
9:25
Speaker 4: the police weren't talking about the case publicly they weren't,
9:29
Speaker 4: I understand, not sharing specific information, but just giving people updates.
9:33
Speaker 4: You know, you need to do that as a police department.
9:36
Speaker 4: So what happened was it turned into a lot of
9:39
Speaker 4: rumors and speculation, and that focused also on the Internet,
9:43
Speaker 4: and at the time we had it was the rise
9:46
Speaker 4: of the armchair sleuth, whether it was web sluice, and
9:50
Speaker 4: so you had a lot of people speculating, and you
9:53
Speaker 4: had a lot of people trying to solve the crimes
9:56
Speaker 4: that they believe the police were not doing and that
9:58
Speaker 4: and as it turns out, they that was the most
10:00
Speaker 4: shocking part of it. There was a lot of you know, hyperbole.
10:04
Speaker 4: There were a lot of rumors, but and we realized
10:07
Speaker 4: something was wrong. I don't think we realized the depth
10:11
Speaker 4: of how bad it was, how much corruption there was,
10:14
Speaker 4: and the extent which they didn't very much.
10:17
Speaker 2: They obstructed justice in this case.
10:19
Speaker 1: And the question is yeah, not just on Long Island, right,
10:23
Speaker 1: which I could not get over. And I also couldn't
10:25
Speaker 1: get over some of these slewice feeling like they were
10:29
Speaker 1: so they weren't professional investigators and yet they were so
10:34
Speaker 1: keyed in even to you know, the patterns killers and
10:38
Speaker 1: what they do and I never heard of the term
10:40
Speaker 1: trophy garden before, right, and how they could actually aid
10:46
Speaker 1: in focusing on the right person and how and knowing
10:51
Speaker 1: what the guy's name, the older guy. I'm sorry, I'm
10:54
Speaker 1: like bread, it's all the one, yes, the one that was.
10:58
Speaker 2: The German guy.
10:59
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
11:02
Speaker 2: Out of central casting.
11:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that's exactly what he looked like. But he
11:06
Speaker 3: was pretty incredible.
11:07
Speaker 1: But the way the tips that he was giving, in
11:09
Speaker 1: the way he could help you all to focus in
11:12
Speaker 1: the right direction, right, and you well, I was I
11:16
Speaker 1: wonder do the police are they even interested in people
11:20
Speaker 1: like this who are really sort of become experts and
11:23
Speaker 1: they have so much information to share, you know.
11:26
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it is that the police
11:27
Speaker 4: are overwhelmed, you know, obviously, rank and file, overworked, underpaid.
11:31
Speaker 4: By the way, in Long Island they are the second
11:33
Speaker 4: highest Seffac County. They are the second highest paid police
11:35
Speaker 4: force in the United States.
11:37
Speaker 3: I have a nephew who's a police and yeah, so, but.
11:39
Speaker 4: The rank and file, you know, that are overworked for
11:42
Speaker 4: the most part. In a lot of these cities, solving
11:45
Speaker 4: murders has become far more difficult because of stranger on
11:49
Speaker 4: stranger crime.
11:50
Speaker 2: It's just not the way it used to be.
11:52
Speaker 4: And so when you have a police force that is
11:56
Speaker 4: overworked or isn't talking to other police agencies like we
11:59
Speaker 4: think that are, it becomes really difficult to solve these crimes.
12:03
Speaker 4: And so what you have is a number of dedicated
12:05
Speaker 4: individuals who are just spending all of their time looking
12:08
Speaker 4: at all the details, finding ways to extrapolate the data online,
12:12
Speaker 4: which is another thing, using computers, using AI, using you know,
12:17
Speaker 4: that data in ways that police just can't. They don't
12:19
Speaker 4: have the training, they're they're too busy, you know, trying
12:23
Speaker 4: to solve all the crimes. And so we do have
12:25
Speaker 4: to look to these individuals that some of them are
12:27
Speaker 4: wicked smart and and they're dedicated. Really at the end
12:31
Speaker 4: of the day, it's dedication.
12:33
Speaker 3: Right, right, It's a commitment.
12:35
Speaker 1: And so sad that it seems that the you know,
12:39
Speaker 1: police were not dedicated in these cases, and not just
12:42
Speaker 1: on Long Island.
12:42
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah right.
12:44
Speaker 1: And how did how did you start to you know,
12:47
Speaker 1: put together that this is possibly not just one person
12:52
Speaker 1: that's doing you know, the murdering that how and how
12:55
Speaker 1: did that change the direction of your investigation.
12:58
Speaker 3: We'll call them investigation.
13:00
Speaker 4: So to be frank, you know, the part of being
13:03
Speaker 4: a documentary filmmaker and trying to do stories about broken systems, you.
13:06
Speaker 2: Also have to try and sell it to the network.
13:09
Speaker 4: And the network of course they want, you know, oh
13:11
Speaker 4: my god, is it one super duper serial killer who's
13:14
Speaker 4: going around the United States killing all these individuals and so,
13:18
Speaker 4: and that's how some people on websites presented it. And
13:20
Speaker 4: we use that, you might say, to get into a
13:23
Speaker 4: story of a larger broken systems. And the reality is
13:26
Speaker 4: is that it's not one super duper hannibal elect or
13:28
Speaker 4: serial killer. There's a lot of bad individuals out there.
13:31
Speaker 4: There's a lot of bad men, to be honest, killing women,
13:33
Speaker 4: vulnerable women, you know, committing violence to get these women.
13:36
Speaker 4: So we kind of use that somewhat you know, fictional
13:40
Speaker 4: setting to get into these much more important stories and
13:45
Speaker 4: stories about you know, the men who are doing this
13:48
Speaker 4: and the police departments that are unfortunately a lot of
13:52
Speaker 4: them were being investigated by the police, by the federal government.
13:56
Speaker 4: It was very interesting to find out that and this
13:58
Speaker 4: goes for Long Island and.
13:59
Speaker 2: Rex who as well.
14:01
Speaker 4: A lot of these guys do this not because yes,
14:05
Speaker 4: you know, they're this crazed individual who can't help themselves,
14:08
Speaker 4: you know, like we see on TV from doing it.
14:10
Speaker 2: That's one part of it.
14:11
Speaker 4: But the other part of it is they are still
14:14
Speaker 4: you know, want to keep on killing. They don't want
14:18
Speaker 4: to get caught necessarily, so they do this in places
14:21
Speaker 4: where they think they can get away with it. It's
14:23
Speaker 4: about you know, it's like your five year old, what
14:26
Speaker 4: can they get away with?
14:27
Speaker 1: And the way there's that lap sometimes in between the
14:30
Speaker 1: serial killings. How then they go and they live their
14:32
Speaker 1: life and they get married and they have kids and
14:35
Speaker 1: they but they're just waiting for the next opportunity or the.
14:38
Speaker 2: Next stressor comes up that then.
14:41
Speaker 3: Oh would drive them to it.
14:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, they think they can.
14:43
Speaker 4: You know, it's like an alcoholic, you know, it's like
14:46
Speaker 4: a functioning alcoholic like, Okay, you know, I'm gonna I'm
14:49
Speaker 4: going to keep it together. I'm going to keep together
14:51
Speaker 4: until the next stresser comes and then you know, something
14:53
Speaker 4: happens and you find yourself drunk driving, in a car
14:56
Speaker 4: accident or in jail. It's kind of life that's compulsion.
15:00
Speaker 4: So but the point is is it's about some of
15:03
Speaker 4: these police departments. Of course they are. I'm very pro
15:06
Speaker 4: police and there are there's far more. You know, great
15:10
Speaker 4: costs are bad apples. But when you have a police
15:14
Speaker 4: department that isn't focused on community policing, you have individuals
15:18
Speaker 4: like this who think they can get away with it.
15:19
Speaker 4: And what we've always said about Rex Huerman, who's a
15:21
Speaker 4: Long Island serial killer, is that maybe his greatest.
15:26
Speaker 2: Thing that he ever did.
15:27
Speaker 4: Was pick Long Island because that allowed him to get
15:29
Speaker 4: away with killing for so long.
15:31
Speaker 3: Why why do you think it was? It was so
15:33
Speaker 3: that Long Island was so ripe for that.
15:36
Speaker 4: Because well, at least in Suffolk County, because what he
15:39
Speaker 4: didn't know but helped him was that there was a
15:42
Speaker 4: police chief at the time, James Burke, who had been
15:45
Speaker 4: soliciting sex workers, partying with sex workers, had very had
15:51
Speaker 4: deep relationships with sex workers, and who had been so
15:54
Speaker 4: corrupt that he didn't even want the FBI help him
15:58
Speaker 4: because he didn't want the FBI to find out about
16:00
Speaker 4: other various things that he was doing. So how lucky
16:04
Speaker 4: for a serial killer that he finds a police chief
16:06
Speaker 4: that basically kicks the FBI out of the case. And
16:10
Speaker 4: you know, you had a police chief and a district
16:13
Speaker 4: attorney literally go to jail during this time.
16:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, the unheard of exactly.
16:21
Speaker 2: Das don't go to jail all the time. That is
16:23
Speaker 2: a very you have to be really bad.
16:40
Speaker 1: You know.
16:40
Speaker 3: Josh has freaked me out.
16:41
Speaker 1: Also, you guys started to talk about the numbers in
16:43
Speaker 1: terms of how many serial killers there are, and that
16:47
Speaker 1: freaked me out because again I get, well, now that
16:50
Speaker 1: I do these documentaries, I'm now I'm waking up to
16:55
Speaker 1: the idea that there are so many. But I would
16:56
Speaker 1: say before I thought that they were just like you know,
17:00
Speaker 1: the Son of Sam, Like they're not right. And then
17:03
Speaker 1: you see the stories on television and you see or
17:06
Speaker 1: whatever films are made, and it you don't realize how
17:09
Speaker 1: many there are and how many that don't get caught.
17:13
Speaker 1: It's really really scary, I think. And I in doing
17:17
Speaker 1: and interviewing someone else recently on the pod, another director,
17:21
Speaker 1: so you probably know about this. So it is easier
17:24
Speaker 1: now to get away with crime, even with the Internet,
17:27
Speaker 1: even with DNA right than it was however many years ago,
17:31
Speaker 1: And it's significantly easier.
17:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, our softw rates have plummetedumbing.
17:36
Speaker 3: How is that?
17:36
Speaker 1: And I don't get it like with you would think
17:38
Speaker 1: with DNA, with the Internet, it would get easier, and
17:41
Speaker 1: it's gotten.
17:41
Speaker 4: Harder because we live in a more outamized society. And
17:45
Speaker 4: you know, it used to be with them when the
17:47
Speaker 4: cop went into the the detective went into the community,
17:50
Speaker 4: somebody knew somebody crimes of passion.
17:52
Speaker 2: Oh yes, my neighbor.
17:54
Speaker 4: And then when you just don't know your neighbors as much,
17:57
Speaker 4: you know, when you're not in that we don't have
17:59
Speaker 4: that same amount of community, it gets much harder. And
18:02
Speaker 4: that's one reason, you know, it's it's it's really terrifying.
18:07
Speaker 4: The other issue is this, and this is where we
18:10
Speaker 4: go to at the end. You would think the way
18:14
Speaker 4: fictional TV presents everything that we live in a very
18:17
Speaker 4: connected world where all this data is available at the fingertips,
18:22
Speaker 4: But that's not actually true. There are over fifteen thousand
18:25
Speaker 4: different police forces in the United States and not one
18:29
Speaker 4: of them is federally mandated to send the FBI it's
18:33
Speaker 4: murder statistics.
18:34
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that when you talked about that in
18:36
Speaker 1: the documentary.
18:37
Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense. Yeah, I mean, what right, what
18:41
Speaker 3: is preventing that? Why is and the program that was developed.
18:45
Speaker 2: Again bypass is the name of the program?
18:47
Speaker 3: Yes, isn't Why isn't that mandatory?
18:51
Speaker 2: Because data is dangerous.
18:55
Speaker 4: If you have a police chief who is not solving
18:58
Speaker 4: crimes and who is not really hammering his department to
19:02
Speaker 4: solve these crimes, you're basically forcing him to give up
19:06
Speaker 4: the data to prove that he's not doing his job.
19:10
Speaker 4: Many people don't like to do that, you know, they
19:12
Speaker 4: don't like to be held accountable.
19:13
Speaker 2: Police departments don't like to be held accountable.
19:16
Speaker 1: But why wouldn't it be like it's a national issue, right,
19:19
Speaker 1: Why do those Why do the police chiefs get to
19:21
Speaker 1: make those decisions about a program that should be national?
19:26
Speaker 4: Great question, you know you're gonna have, you know, we
19:29
Speaker 4: need to hold our police departments accountable. It was very
19:32
Speaker 4: interesting when you look at policing. This is the CompStat
19:36
Speaker 4: program that happened in New York City Giuliani Jack Maple
19:40
Speaker 4: back in the day when Giuliani was hardened to crime.
19:43
Speaker 4: They were using all these statistics and organized in a
19:47
Speaker 4: computer system called CompStat, and they would literally see the
19:50
Speaker 4: amount of burglaries, all these different crimes, rapes, and they
19:53
Speaker 4: would this is like a fable story in New York
19:56
Speaker 4: City crime where they would call these precinct commanders up
19:59
Speaker 4: in the a little bit in the like, have a
20:01
Speaker 4: meeting and call them up, and these precinct commanders would
20:04
Speaker 4: be crying by the end of it because they would
20:05
Speaker 4: be like, you know, the data proved that they were
20:09
Speaker 4: or were not doing their jobs correctly, and every week
20:12
Speaker 4: they would go after them. Why are these many ribs?
20:15
Speaker 4: What's going on here? You need to solve this? And
20:18
Speaker 4: so we don't hold our law enforcement to the same accountability.
20:23
Speaker 4: But if we did, we would reduce crime.
20:25
Speaker 1: Do you think that we would reduce it significantly enough
20:30
Speaker 1: that those statistics would change and we would actually solve
20:33
Speaker 1: more crime than we used to. Absolutely, and without that,
20:36
Speaker 1: don't you think that's the biggest issue right there?
20:38
Speaker 4: Data doesn't the devil's in the details. The data doesn't lie,
20:41
Speaker 4: you know, but not even that. When you are in
20:46
Speaker 4: self preservation mode, when you are not handing over the data,
20:49
Speaker 4: you are limiting the ability for the computer to make
20:53
Speaker 4: those connections, algorithms to make those connections.
20:56
Speaker 2: Linkage blindness.
20:57
Speaker 4: You don't get to see, so you don't get to
20:59
Speaker 4: see the highway serial killer who's dropping off victims from
21:02
Speaker 4: state to state to state. I couldn't believe that this
21:05
Speaker 4: was happening. I was like, like.
21:07
Speaker 2: This is not the nineteen seventies. We're today.
21:10
Speaker 4: We should all be like holding hands and singing Kumbai,
21:12
Speaker 4: yeah about trying to solve crimes, and yet we're not.
21:15
Speaker 4: And that's what's really frustrating. What's frustrating is the answers
21:19
Speaker 4: are there.
21:19
Speaker 1: Especially with AI. I mean, do you think that that's
21:21
Speaker 1: going it? CAD has to it's going to have to
21:24
Speaker 1: make a difference. Will once everybody agrees to be transparent.
21:29
Speaker 4: Yes, bad data in that they say, garbage data in,
21:34
Speaker 4: garbage data out. Yeah, it doesn't matter how smart the
21:38
Speaker 4: computer system is if it doesn't have all the data.
21:42
Speaker 4: One thing that I learned recently that totally freaked me
21:45
Speaker 4: out was that in federal federal lands like parks or
21:51
Speaker 4: Native American reservations, even they're not mandated.
21:54
Speaker 2: I thought it was a state issue, right, States were like.
21:57
Speaker 4: No, I'm not going to send all my information to
21:59
Speaker 4: the federal government, you know, and this is the old
22:01
Speaker 4: war happening. But even on the federal side, how do
22:04
Speaker 4: you not send all murder data from a from a
22:06
Speaker 4: national park to a mainline computer system? Even the head
22:10
Speaker 4: of the VISCAP program was saying that the computer that
22:12
Speaker 4: the system's broken. Wow, and that's how guys like retx
22:16
Speaker 4: Hereum in the Long Island serial Killer get away with
22:18
Speaker 4: it for thirty years.
22:19
Speaker 3: For so long.
22:20
Speaker 1: Tell me about interviewing the people the families that were
22:24
Speaker 1: close to the victims had and I was pretty amazed
22:27
Speaker 1: at how you got them to open up. Was it
22:28
Speaker 1: hard to get them to talk to you?
22:31
Speaker 4: No, because no one had, because they were desperate, sad
22:35
Speaker 4: because nobody had, because they weren't getting answers, and they
22:38
Speaker 4: were desperate for somebody to hear their story of their
22:41
Speaker 4: loved one.
22:42
Speaker 2: And you know, now today the world's changed.
22:47
Speaker 4: You know, you've got nine million, you know, podcasters like
22:51
Speaker 4: ourselves who want the story and are willing to listen.
22:53
Speaker 4: But back then, it wasn't like that, and it's not
22:56
Speaker 4: by by the way, it wasn't that long ago. But
22:59
Speaker 4: nobody was listening to them, nobody was hearing their stories.
23:01
Speaker 4: Is they were desperate for information and it didn't know
23:04
Speaker 4: where to turn. And that was the most heartbreaking thing,
23:07
Speaker 4: knowing that you couldn't quite help them. The only thing
23:09
Speaker 4: you could do was trying to amplify their story.
23:12
Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting that it wasn't difficult to get them
23:15
Speaker 1: to talk to you. They didn't know you, and I
23:17
Speaker 1: watching you guys, you and Rachel go and just knock
23:19
Speaker 1: on homes. I always whenever you knocked, I thought, there's
23:22
Speaker 1: no way he's getting into this house. Like somebody comes
23:25
Speaker 1: and knocks on my door and for whatever reason, I
23:27
Speaker 1: don't know, but it's you're It's interesting because you're right,
23:29
Speaker 1: these families are.
23:30
Speaker 3: So desperate, you know, for closure about what his friend
23:35
Speaker 3: it is. It's awful.
23:36
Speaker 1: So what do you feel like these victims? What did
23:40
Speaker 1: the families teach you about the victims? And I kind
23:42
Speaker 1: of can guess your answer, but I mean, again, it's
23:45
Speaker 1: about the fact that they were actually human. They weren't
23:47
Speaker 1: just sex workers, right, these are these are women that
23:51
Speaker 1: were that had whole lives.
23:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the children and sisters, mothers, daughters also
24:00
Speaker 4: taught me the way in which we need to be
24:03
Speaker 4: responsible in terms of amplifying their stories. It's yeah, you know,
24:09
Speaker 4: it's there's a responsibility we have to not just tell
24:14
Speaker 4: the story and then move on to the next podcast episode.
24:18
Speaker 4: I'm guilty of it too, I do it, you know,
24:20
Speaker 4: But but I think you need to realize what that means.
24:24
Speaker 4: It's so easy for us to research a story on
24:26
Speaker 4: Wikipedia and then go talk about that story and say
24:30
Speaker 4: these names.
24:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Josh, you're not a cow.
24:32
Speaker 1: How long do you hit your head up against a
24:33
Speaker 1: wall before you say I've got to move on?
24:36
Speaker 2: Listen. I bet you're no choice.
24:39
Speaker 4: You have no choice, absolutely, But even just the knowing,
24:44
Speaker 4: I think. I think even just the knowing going there,
24:47
Speaker 4: going to somebody's house, sitting in their house, hearing their stories,
24:51
Speaker 4: I think that's the difference in what I learned versus
24:54
Speaker 4: what I'm seeing out there in the world today. It's
24:58
Speaker 4: it's not the same when and you know, we talk
25:02
Speaker 4: over zoom. You have to go there and you have
25:04
Speaker 4: to sit with these people, and then when the camera
25:06
Speaker 4: turns off, you have to hear what they say to
25:08
Speaker 4: the camera.
25:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
25:10
Speaker 1: Are there any of the any of the families or
25:12
Speaker 1: any of the stories that really which one do you
25:14
Speaker 1: think impacted you the most?
25:16
Speaker 3: If you can pick one.
25:17
Speaker 2: Oh man, there's there's it's it's so interesting. You know.
25:22
Speaker 4: There was a woman, Kim, who was a sister of
25:24
Speaker 4: one of the girls, and she had her own addiction troubles,
25:28
Speaker 4: but she was so smart and so with it and
25:31
Speaker 4: so together. And I met her in a hotel and
25:33
Speaker 4: she was high as a kite. But yeah, yeah, but yet,
25:38
Speaker 4: you know, I was like, this woman is so smart,
25:40
Speaker 4: what is she doing here? And she was so racked
25:45
Speaker 4: with guilts?
25:45
Speaker 2: You know.
25:46
Speaker 4: That was one of that was one of the stories,
25:48
Speaker 4: just learning who these people are and learning the human
25:52
Speaker 4: consequence of tragedy. And yeah, I'm always learning that story.
25:58
Speaker 4: Very recently, there was the victim impact statements in the
26:03
Speaker 4: Gilga Beach case. And I had met these people nine
26:07
Speaker 4: years ago or actually longer, probably thirteen years ago, and
26:12
Speaker 4: then I saw them today. And you know, to see
26:16
Speaker 4: these victim impact statements, to hear a child of a
26:19
Speaker 4: murdered victim say, yes, I never even knew my mother, right?
26:22
Speaker 4: Can you imagine what it's like to never grow up
26:25
Speaker 4: with a mother that most the most important relationship any
26:30
Speaker 4: human being could technically ever have outside of maybe your
26:33
Speaker 4: you know, life partner, if that even is real, but
26:37
Speaker 4: you know, it's your mother, right, and to not have that.
26:40
Speaker 1: How about your daughter and her grandmother? To take that away?
26:44
Speaker 1: It's all right? I mean I think there's you know,
26:47
Speaker 1: maybe things are so sensationalized. Now there's so much that
26:51
Speaker 1: we see on TV and in terms of fiction, and
26:54
Speaker 1: maybe we've grown a little numb to have.
26:58
Speaker 4: I think we have, and I think you really you know,
27:01
Speaker 4: I remember the hardest interview I've ever done. Yeah, I
27:04
Speaker 4: used to produce movies, right, so like I've dealt with
27:07
Speaker 4: a big actors, huge actors, people screaming and yell at me.
27:10
Speaker 2: None of that means anything to me.
27:12
Speaker 4: The hardest interview I ever did was with a parent
27:14
Speaker 4: of a missing child, because how do you even how
27:17
Speaker 4: do you even start the conversation to say, oh, I
27:20
Speaker 4: know what you're thinking, I know what you're feeling. You know,
27:24
Speaker 4: he has no idea, you know. And then and I said,
27:27
Speaker 4: where do you think your daughter is? And I was
27:29
Speaker 4: like looking for like the clue to go find it,
27:32
Speaker 4: and he turns me and goes in heaven, I hope.
27:35
Speaker 4: And it was so subtle, but it floored me.
27:40
Speaker 1: Are you just reminding me of After October seventh there
27:44
Speaker 1: was there was a little girl that was taken and
27:47
Speaker 1: they interviewed the father and he said, I just hope
27:49
Speaker 1: that she's dead and not in these in the tunnels,
27:51
Speaker 1: since she was actually rescued thank God. But yeah, like
27:54
Speaker 1: that's the alternative is so unbearable. Yeah, that death feels more.
28:01
Speaker 4: And so I just think we need to understand the
28:03
Speaker 4: consequence of trauma in our reporting of these cases. And
28:08
Speaker 4: I think that that's helpful for us to be better reporters,
28:12
Speaker 4: to be better storytellers, because at the end of the day,
28:16
Speaker 4: you don't want to go there almost because it's so
28:18
Speaker 4: sad and it's so tragic, but.
28:19
Speaker 2: You have to.
28:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's important. Also, sometimes I say
28:24
Speaker 1: to myself as I'm watching it, it's just it's also horrible.
28:26
Speaker 1: I watch lots of crime, true crime documentaries. But I
28:29
Speaker 1: do think that there's something important about being in the
28:33
Speaker 1: know and not just you know, turning a blind eye.
28:36
Speaker 1: I not that I'm not saying I'm not you. I'm
28:39
Speaker 1: not going out and solving cases, clearly, I'm just interviewing
28:41
Speaker 1: people like you. But still, I guess awareness is, you know,
28:46
Speaker 1: helpful and important and all of that. How did you
28:49
Speaker 1: feel when Rex Huerman was arrested, Like, what was your
28:54
Speaker 1: immediate reaction?
28:55
Speaker 5: I didn't believe it really well, because you had a
28:59
Speaker 5: police department that was so corrupt and had put out
29:02
Speaker 5: all these false you know narratives and fumbled through the case,
29:06
Speaker 5: and we're making all these like I saw what they
29:09
Speaker 5: were doing in the background.
29:10
Speaker 2: I was just like, these guys are ridiculous.
29:12
Speaker 4: I can't believe. You can't believe anything they're saying. I
29:14
Speaker 4: mean literally, they're going to jail. So I didn't believe it.
29:16
Speaker 4: I had to be convinced. But there was a new
29:20
Speaker 4: DA ray Tyranny, and he would put out these bail documents,
29:24
Speaker 4: and the bail document like like here's our he would
29:29
Speaker 4: give out like proof like here is the document, the
29:32
Speaker 4: legal documents that as to why we arrested rex Hureman. Okay,
29:37
Speaker 4: And and then there was a superseding document when there
29:39
Speaker 4: was another crime that was added to the list because
29:42
Speaker 4: they kept identifying people and the DNA kept getting processed
29:45
Speaker 4: and then be like, okay, we can now link this
29:47
Speaker 4: guy to another victim. So he kept putting out these
29:50
Speaker 4: bail documents, and for those in the know who were
29:53
Speaker 4: so into the case, it was like reading a crime
29:56
Speaker 4: novel from this guy. And so he was giving the
29:59
Speaker 4: public his evidence and it was super fascinating. So I
30:05
Speaker 4: eventually became convinced that they did have the right guy.
30:07
Speaker 4: I own my biggest concern now is what about the
30:11
Speaker 4: other victims, What about the other victims who haven't been identified,
30:14
Speaker 4: What about the other crimes that may be local and
30:18
Speaker 4: trying to solve those mysteries.
30:20
Speaker 3: How many did he admit to?
30:22
Speaker 4: Age, Yes, I think there's well, there's one more victim
30:28
Speaker 4: named Asian Doe. We don't know who this person is
30:30
Speaker 4: the only person found a long Gilgo Beach's trophy garden
30:34
Speaker 4: who hasn't been identified. Rech Human denies that this is
30:37
Speaker 4: any one of his victims. Yet it doesn't make any
30:39
Speaker 4: sense because this victim is in between two other victims
30:43
Speaker 4: who he did admit to, and he had searches on
30:47
Speaker 4: his Google for transsexual ts transsexuals. What he was looking
30:53
Speaker 4: for really transgender individuals.
30:58
Speaker 2: But at the.
30:58
Speaker 4: Time, you know, for some reason he's not coming clean
31:02
Speaker 4: about this. Is it because there's this underlying prejudice He
31:06
Speaker 4: doesn't want the world somehow, you know.
31:08
Speaker 3: It'd be interested in trans victim right exactly?
31:11
Speaker 4: You know, it's like, oh my god, you know he's
31:13
Speaker 4: like a serial kill. It's literally clutching his own pearls.
31:15
Speaker 3: Yes, my god, I can you imagine.
31:18
Speaker 2: Never me, I wouldn't do that. I only killed women.
31:23
Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm laughing.
31:24
Speaker 2: Okay, because it's.
31:26
Speaker 3: Okay, it's so ridiculous looking back. Would you've done anything differently?
31:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had.
31:49
Speaker 4: I had an interview with a gentleman named Dave Shaller
31:51
Speaker 4: who was one of the victims.
31:52
Speaker 2: You Actually his interview was in.
31:55
Speaker 4: The documentary The Killing Season. It's in like in a
31:59
Speaker 4: third episode and he talks about how the police came
32:02
Speaker 4: but nothing ever happened.
32:03
Speaker 2: Well, we didn't.
32:04
Speaker 4: Include in this interview and left on the cutting room
32:07
Speaker 4: floor was an interview. Was the rest of the interview
32:10
Speaker 4: where he talks about this guy who came in a
32:12
Speaker 4: green avalanche and he was spunge as absolutely. As part
32:16
Speaker 4: of it, he talked about three individuals, but among them
32:19
Speaker 4: was this guy who was huge, a monster, Frankenstein an ogre.
32:22
Speaker 4: He dries a Chevy Avalanche and he's like, it's either him,
32:25
Speaker 4: him or him.
32:26
Speaker 3: Ah, that shit must have kept you up.
32:30
Speaker 4: Why didn't we put it in because we're like we
32:32
Speaker 4: He's like, well, obviously the police checked this guy out.
32:35
Speaker 2: It doesn't make it.
32:36
Speaker 3: Oh my god, come on, because.
32:38
Speaker 4: It was so clear as day. He's like, oh, I
32:40
Speaker 4: told the cops about this one. These three guys, you know,
32:43
Speaker 4: and we're like, oh, well, no way, there's no way
32:46
Speaker 4: that this super duper smart serial killer would he basically,
32:50
Speaker 4: in his story, the same guy who had been to
32:52
Speaker 4: the house two weeks beforehand, he had gotten into this fight.
32:56
Speaker 2: They had done a ruse, like the typical old boyfriend ruse.
32:59
Speaker 4: Like like where's my wife, you know, get out of here,
33:02
Speaker 4: take the money and kick the guy out. Well, they
33:04
Speaker 4: pulled this ruse on Rex Heuerman. Rex Heureman then apparently
33:08
Speaker 4: goes back either the next day or two weeks later
33:12
Speaker 4: and then snatches that woman. Why because you know, had
33:16
Speaker 4: he been insulted. You know, he let his ego get
33:19
Speaker 4: in the way of years of being a super duper
33:24
Speaker 4: smart serial killer. So it didn't make any sense. And
33:27
Speaker 4: we of course said, well, you know, the super super
33:29
Speaker 4: serial killer would never show his face and then go
33:31
Speaker 4: back two weeks later.
33:32
Speaker 2: This doesn't make any sense, and yet he did.
33:35
Speaker 3: Ego. Wow, the ego of a serial killer.
33:37
Speaker 1: Do you think that it's a big generalization, but the
33:40
Speaker 1: most serial killers are an ordinarily bright, smart, high IQ individuals.
33:49
Speaker 2: I mean it depends.
33:50
Speaker 4: I mean there's an old classification which is usually organized
33:53
Speaker 4: versus disorganized, disorganized or the kind of mentally disabled. Right,
33:56
Speaker 4: You guys who just like blitz attack and there's just
34:00
Speaker 4: like a crazy man running around, you know. And then
34:02
Speaker 4: there's the organized, and those are the folks who are
34:06
Speaker 4: usually have some sort of you know, emotional trauma growing up.
34:10
Speaker 4: You know, it's a combination of genetics and nature and nurture.
34:15
Speaker 2: You know. They say that.
34:17
Speaker 4: Genetics loads the gun, and you know, the environment pulls
34:21
Speaker 4: the trigger, and so the organized ones.
34:25
Speaker 2: Yes, But here's the thing.
34:27
Speaker 4: Rex Hureman was actually very rare, dangerous type of serial killer,
34:32
Speaker 4: a subset known as a sexual sadist.
34:36
Speaker 2: And that's really interesting. Sexual status are really.
34:39
Speaker 1: Hard actually enjoyed, right, well not I mean I would
34:41
Speaker 1: think that if you're going to be a serial killer,
34:44
Speaker 1: you probably are going to enjoy your work somehow, I
34:47
Speaker 1: don't know, But not like that.
34:49
Speaker 2: They don't enjoy I mean.
34:51
Speaker 1: Are there're serial killers that don't enjoy killing people, don't
34:54
Speaker 1: most of them aren't most of them sadists.
34:56
Speaker 3: They feel like they have to.
34:57
Speaker 4: There are serial killers that have other issues that kill,
35:00
Speaker 4: you know, for a reason, telling or anger, what have you, right,
35:05
Speaker 4: you know, anger, transference, all these other issues. But Rex
35:08
Speaker 4: Chuermann enjoys pain, causing pain and the fear that of
35:15
Speaker 4: that individual. Basically, it's like BDS you know BDSM. You know,
35:19
Speaker 4: they say, we're not comparing it to BDSM. It's a
35:22
Speaker 4: very different thing. But people in BS BDSM relationships they
35:26
Speaker 4: enjoy the fact that the other partner consents to all
35:29
Speaker 4: these things. What a sexual sadist is the lack of consent.
35:33
Speaker 4: It's the fact that the person's like, no, no, no,
35:36
Speaker 4: please stop. They love the fear. That's what gets them off,
35:40
Speaker 4: not even the sex part of it. The fear. And
35:42
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter if it's black or white, young or old, uh,
35:46
Speaker 4: it is it is always.
35:48
Speaker 2: About that sadism.
35:50
Speaker 4: It is always about getting off on the fear of
35:52
Speaker 4: the other individual. That's why he would then call sometimes
35:56
Speaker 4: he called the sister of one of the of his
35:58
Speaker 4: victims and said, told the all the things that he
36:01
Speaker 4: did and how he would come into it too. He's
36:02
Speaker 4: getting off on the fear and that is terrifying.
36:07
Speaker 3: What was his background, what was his nurture?
36:09
Speaker 4: So Rech Jermann had a very domineering father, alcoholic German,
36:15
Speaker 4: probably beat him quite a bit. He had He was
36:19
Speaker 4: a bit of a Mama's boy, we think very significant
36:22
Speaker 4: in this case.
36:22
Speaker 2: He had been bullied. Now, of course, millions of people.
36:25
Speaker 1: Are bullied every day, right, you always think that right
36:27
Speaker 1: when you hear it, but different.
36:29
Speaker 4: But the bullying was important to him. And remember a
36:32
Speaker 4: lot of people would be like, I was bullied. I
36:34
Speaker 4: never How can we blame bullying. We're not blaming bullying.
36:36
Speaker 4: What we're saying is what makes the sexual status is
36:39
Speaker 4: a very unique cocktail of factors, both physical and that
36:44
Speaker 4: he was also a malignant narcissist.
36:46
Speaker 2: You know, it is a lot. He was also huge six'.
36:49
Speaker 4: Three he had been kind of bullied about how big he,
36:52
Speaker 4: was and that it's all part of a very unique.
36:56
Speaker 4: Cocktail and as we, know sometimes if you have too
36:59
Speaker 4: much of one into my, another you know that it
37:01
Speaker 4: doesn't create a drink that tastes good or you, know
37:05
Speaker 4: but you have to have the, right perfect cocktail to
37:07
Speaker 4: to create a sexual.
37:08
Speaker 2: Status Light, reshuman do.
37:10
Speaker 1: You think that so just talking about nature versus? Nurture
37:13
Speaker 1: of course you're saying that it's both, Right so also it's,
37:17
Speaker 1: THIS i, mean do you believe after doing all of
37:20
Speaker 1: this there is just evil born? Evil you, know these
37:24
Speaker 1: serial killers they're bad, eggs the bad, apples, WHATEVER i,
37:27
Speaker 1: mean do you believe that from the?
37:29
Speaker 3: Beginning who when they're? Kids.
37:30
Speaker 4: LISTEN i don't believe anybody is born, evil you. KNOW
37:33
Speaker 4: i also don't Believe, YEAH i don't believe in the
37:35
Speaker 4: in the clean slate theory as.
37:37
Speaker 2: Well but you, KNOW i don't believe anybody is born.
37:40
Speaker 4: EVIL i believe people are born with, deficiencies mental deficiencies
37:44
Speaker 4: and genetic deficiencies that allow them to be. Predisposed and
37:49
Speaker 4: then other factors have to come into. Play the alcoholic,
37:52
Speaker 4: father you, know being tormented for being so, big or
37:56
Speaker 4: being bullied by by the girls in high. School he
37:59
Speaker 4: got really tormented by the girls in high. School he
38:02
Speaker 4: would he was so, big he was very, awkward and
38:05
Speaker 4: so he would like leave them love letters and they
38:07
Speaker 4: would like be.
38:08
Speaker 2: Like what are you?
38:08
Speaker 4: KIDDING i would never date, you and you, know but
38:11
Speaker 4: Then Rex huerman you, know would then go like steal
38:14
Speaker 4: things out of his.
38:15
Speaker 2: Locker remember this is all a.
38:16
Speaker 4: Choice all these serial kills are making choices at the
38:20
Speaker 4: end of the. Day it's a very famous story About Joel.
38:23
Speaker 4: Rifkin he has these feelings where he wants to hurt
38:27
Speaker 4: somebody and he goes into a library and he picks
38:29
Speaker 4: out two, books and one book is a psychology book
38:32
Speaker 4: and the other book is about like a true crime
38:35
Speaker 4: book about murdering. Women and in that, moment he has
38:38
Speaker 4: that choice to figure out why he is who he
38:41
Speaker 4: is or why he feels this, way and instead he
38:43
Speaker 4: picks up the book about murdering, women the true crime.
38:46
Speaker 3: Book this is a true. Story, yes how you said
38:48
Speaker 3: he know, this that's pretty. Incredible he told.
38:50
Speaker 2: It he told the story.
38:51
Speaker 4: Right we did an interview with a guy who with
38:54
Speaker 4: AN fbi profile and Named Mark saffick that you could
38:56
Speaker 4: see On, sinister our podcast where he talks about all
38:59
Speaker 4: these differ and things and even you, know we really
39:02
Speaker 4: want to get into the mind because it's too simplistic
39:04
Speaker 4: to call them.
39:05
Speaker 2: Monsters it's too, Simplistic.
39:06
Speaker 3: You're i've been watching a lot of these documentaries since we.
39:10
Speaker 2: Start you, know the family could call them.
39:11
Speaker 1: Monsters SOMETIMES i can get my head around, that other
39:15
Speaker 1: TIMES i just. CAN'T i don't, know it's IT'S i
39:20
Speaker 1: guess sometimes it's easier to just say that that's this
39:22
Speaker 1: is the way that they were.
39:23
Speaker 4: Born, Right it's way easier to do, that, Right but
39:28
Speaker 4: if you really want to stop, it if you really
39:30
Speaker 4: want to prevent, it then you have to find, out you,
39:32
Speaker 4: know what we can. DO i, mean you, know are
39:35
Speaker 4: there that what are all the? Signs you, know like
39:39
Speaker 4: it used to beet the triad, bed, wedding, arson and
39:43
Speaker 4: murdering small, animals and now that's, changed interestingly, enough they've
39:46
Speaker 4: added a. Difference now it's like the fourth, one which
39:49
Speaker 4: is internet. Bullying so these are, like these are, signs
39:53
Speaker 4: and you have to be able to look for the
39:54
Speaker 4: signs that wedding is no longer part of, it you,
39:58
Speaker 4: know arson is not is maybe. Not but you can
40:01
Speaker 4: stop people. There there are, parents there are, teachers.
40:06
Speaker 3: See, something say something, Right, yeah see something say?
40:09
Speaker 2: Right you, know you never know what may stop.
40:11
Speaker 4: Them so people aren't always like, THAT i, mean are
40:15
Speaker 4: there specific are there unique?
40:17
Speaker 2: Cases? Yeah of.
40:17
Speaker 4: Course And i'm not some Like i'm not some crazy
40:19
Speaker 4: liberal who's like save them. All you, Know i'm totally
40:22
Speaker 4: not that believen the death. Penalty yet at the same,
40:24
Speaker 4: time you, know why are we talking about all these
40:27
Speaker 4: people if not to actually at the end of the,
40:29
Speaker 4: day maybe trying right stop.
40:31
Speaker 1: THEM i want to ask you this Because i'm getting
40:34
Speaker 1: notes that we have to wrap it.
40:36
Speaker 3: Up BUT i want to ask.
40:37
Speaker 1: YOU i was amazed At i'm going to call, IT
40:40
Speaker 1: i don't know what you call. IT i think you
40:42
Speaker 1: guys seem very. Brave and do you get scared doing this?
40:47
Speaker 1: WORK i, MEAN i even just you, know you're poking
40:50
Speaker 1: at a bear and like the guy said to, you
40:53
Speaker 1: you don't want to open up that can of? Worms,
40:55
Speaker 1: right and he said up, right like aren't you? Nervous
40:58
Speaker 1: you do this all the. TIME i or you, know
41:01
Speaker 1: you didn't know The rex was the. Guy what if
41:03
Speaker 1: he found out that you were DOING i don't.
41:04
Speaker 4: Know we actually believe that there's a scene in which
41:08
Speaker 4: we put something out on back, page and we actually
41:11
Speaker 4: believe he had read that basically come, on, yeah because
41:14
Speaker 4: he had been trolling back. Page there's like a site
41:17
Speaker 4: where people talk about where like they rate sex, workers
41:20
Speaker 4: and so we found some evidence of.
41:22
Speaker 2: That you, KNOW i don't, KNOW i, mean.
41:23
Speaker 3: Did rachel get? SCARED i, mean as one.
41:26
Speaker 2: She, did you, KNOW i feel bad here one of.
41:30
Speaker 3: THOSE i, MEAN i don't. KNOW i was, Amazed, LIKE
41:33
Speaker 3: i don't know how the shit doesn't keep you up.
41:34
Speaker 4: At night because your desire for the truth is stronger
41:37
Speaker 4: than than anything.
41:39
Speaker 3: ELSE i, guess, well that's a great place to. End
41:42
Speaker 3: you're a.
41:42
Speaker 1: HERO i don't know what to tell. YOU i hope
41:43
Speaker 1: you have security and you have double, locks BUT i don't.
41:47
Speaker 1: KNOW i don't really mean. THAT i know that you're
41:49
Speaker 1: you know what you're, doing AND i trust in, that
41:51
Speaker 1: BUT i think it it takes a lot of character
41:55
Speaker 1: to delve into the stuff because you want people to get, caught,
41:58
Speaker 1: right and you want to make that difference because is
42:00
Speaker 1: better you than me my friend.
42:02
Speaker 4: Listen which it wasn't, me which it could be law,
42:04
Speaker 4: enforcement but sometimes you pick up the.
42:06
Speaker 3: Mantle, yeah well you do a great.
42:09
Speaker 1: Job amazing And i'm going to watch more of your stuff,
42:11
Speaker 1: now AND i really appreciate your joining.
42:14
Speaker 3: Us it's.
42:14
Speaker 1: Fascinating the stuff you uncover was absolutely. Fascinating so the
42:17
Speaker 1: documentary was. Amazing thank, You thank you so. Much appreciate,
42:20
Speaker 1: you of, course