Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Seb Bunney | The Hidden Cost of Money | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Seb Bunney | The Hidden Cost of Money | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

• 0:00
  Yeah, welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin.
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  I don't know. Today we have a very special
• 0:04
  guest on podcast. We have Seb Bunny.
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  I recently crossed paths with him in in, I was going to say
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  California in Canada and it was pretty awesome.
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  Really enjoyed our conversations.
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  I'm really excited to have this conversation with you guys or
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  with him so you guys could watch it.
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  Anyways, I do want to bring on stage man.
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  Thank you so much for for joining me today bro, how you
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  doing? Ah, honestly, Nico, it's, it's,
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  it's truly my pleasure. Like I, I've always appreciated
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  kind of the work you do and the content you put out.
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  So I'm pumped to chat. It's been a long time in the
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  making. Right.
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  I mean, like I, I'm appreciate that.
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  And I'm also a huge fan of your work.
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  And I think we also cross paths in, in mile eight.
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  I think that was the first time I met you in person.
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  So, yeah, yeah, we met very, very briefly.
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  And I think from that I think you had Daz on as well.
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  So Daz came and joined you on the Simply Bitcoin as well.
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  Yeah, yeah, but dude, like, it's so you wrote this book, right?
• 1:00
  The hidden cost of money did, did you?
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  Did you think it was going to be as popular as as it was?
• 1:06
  No, not at all. You know what?
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  I, when I ended up kind of I, I just stepped back for a second.
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  I'd say a while back, 4-5 years ago, we founded DAZ, myself,
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  Greg Foss and a couple others. We found it Looking Glass
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  because we were just like, there's not enough material that
• 1:21
  speaks to the average person. We really need to remove the
• 1:24
  jargon. If you want to go down the
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  philosophical route, you've got kind of Breedlove.
• 1:28
  If you want to go the corporate route, you've got Sailor.
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  If you want to go the technical route, you've got Antonopoulos.
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  But we need to remove the jargon and speak to the average person.
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  And so we found it Looking Glass and we just started kind of
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  putting content out there and it seemed to resonate.
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  And I never expected to write a book and, and honestly, when I
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  put it out there, I've been totally humbled by the response
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  and super appreciative and just blown away by the Bitcoin
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  community. But I think it what it shows is
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  that the average person wants to understand why, why they're
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  feeling what they're feeling. Why are we feeling that?
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  I can't freaking survive these days.
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  I can't afford a house and struggling to kind of feed my
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  family. Why are we feeling these things?
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  And I think that's what I tried to answer in the book.
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  Yeah. And let's talk about that too,
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  because this is like a, a very central theme that we kind of
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  explore on the Daily News show because it like we, we hit
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  trending topics and it just kind of circles around the fact that
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  like one of the central themes of the show is that money's
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  broken. Money plays a very important
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  role in your life, whether you realize it or not, It's the
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  reality and there's consequences to living on broken money.
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  And there's also like on the more positive side aside,
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  because we are, this is a Bitcoin podcast.
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  So we have to provide a little bit of hope.
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  There is a solution to this. And the solution is immediate.
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  Like you don't even have to go and vote and hope for a
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  politician to get in. This is something that you can
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  do as an individual and it's not that you're going to start
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  feeling the benefits immediately.
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  In my opinion, takes about roughly 4 years to for you to
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  realize that like you made a good decision and then, you
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  know, two cycles and you're like, OK, that was a really good
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  decision. That's my opinion.
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  But yeah, so I don't know if you want to add to that or yeah.
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  No, you know, what I'd say is that, like, I wholeheartedly
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  agree and people sometimes struggle to tie money and
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  psychology together. And that's one area that has
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  really kind of opened my eyes to just how much money really
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  changes society. And so there's kind of three
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  areas that I kind of tend to discuss.
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  The first one, it's just time preference and Bitcoiners tend
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  to be aware of time preference, which is if you have a low time
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  preference, you're thinking about the future, you're
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  thinking about security and how do I build this future that kind
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  of I can have prosperity in. And then you can have a high
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  time preference, which is I'm more focused on my meeting my
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  immediate needs. I don't really care about the
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  future. I just want to meet my immediate
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  needs so I can feel satisfaction right now.
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  Now what's interesting is when we have a broken money, when we
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  have money that's losing purchasing power, our purchasing
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  power is greatest in the present moment.
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  And so because of that, we're actually incentivized to
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  consume. We're incentivized to spend.
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  And so people are focused on their immediate needs.
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  And you see it and you feel it amongst society where people are
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  just, they're, they're servicing their immediate needs.
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  They're not thinking about the future.
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  And society feels like it's degrading, it's decaying.
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  Whereas what's fascinating about Bitcoin and as you mentioned, as
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  you go through the cycles, especially after you've kind of
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  gone through a full cycle of four years, your time horizon
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  starts to extend. You start thinking further out
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  and you start thinking about what is possible and how you
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  want to show up. So I noticed that is always
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  trying to kind of degrade our ability to think long term.
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  Whereas Bitcoin on the other hand, is lengthening our ability
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  to think long term. It's incentivizing us to save.
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  It's incentivizing us to think about the future of building
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  security. That's kind of the first area.
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  The second area I'll quickly touch on is just like
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  meaninglessness. I find in today's society
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  because money is losing value so quickly, people are fleeing the
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  currency and they're going investing in assets.
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  So asset prices are skyrocketing, cost of living is
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  skyrocketing. And so people are finding
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  meaninglessness because they don't actually, they don't know
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  how they're going to get by. They don't know how they're
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  going to feed their family. They don't know what their
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  future entails. And so people just kind of
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  giving up. Whereas what's so fascinating
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  about Bitcoin is it's the inverse.
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  As people start to see their purchasing power grow, they have
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  greater capacity to show up in life.
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  And as they have greater capacity to show up in life,
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  they start to find meaning. They start to invest the time to
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  think they're passionate about. And that's one thing when I've
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  been around like Bitcoin events, and I'm sure you could probably
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  agree, people are freaking pumped and people have interests
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  and people are excited about what the future holds.
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  And then the final one I'll quickly touch on is just
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  compassion and altruism. I think in psychology, there's
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  something called like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
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  And it's basically A5 tier pyramid.
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  And from the base, you've got your basic needs.
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  You need food and you need shelter.
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  Then as you go up the pyramid, you start to get into like
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  family and relationships, and then you get into a more
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  spiritual beliefs and then you get into like self
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  actualization, being the best person you can possibly be.
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  And what is interesting is that when money degrades over time
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  and a cost of living is rising, people get stuck on the bottom.
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  They get stuck trying to service their basic needs and they can't
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  think about compassion and altruism.
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  They can't think about relationships, they can't think
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  about spirituality. And when we have society built
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  upon a sound money that allows them to save, so they have
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  greater capacity to show up, they can start to give back to
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  society or they can think more about that compassion and
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  altruism. So I really do believe that
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  money does shape how we show up as individuals.
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  And Bitcoin very much has the potential and already is
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  changing how people show up. It's it's, it's amazing. 100%
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  agree. And dude, I'm so glad that you
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  that you, you dug into these things, right?
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  Because I think that as a Bitcoiner, time progresses and
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  these are things that you start to and neatly feel, but it seems
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  like you took a step above that Seb, like you not only felt
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  these things, but you started to do research and you started to
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  put thing, put concepts together.
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  And I kind of want to explore that because I, I have seen that
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  graphic what you're talking about the, the hierarchy of
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  needs. And it's really interesting in
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  regards to how today's world functions, which is the vast
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  majority of people are just surviving, like they're just
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  threading water. And that doesn't even give them
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  the ability to think. And I think you're 100% right.
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  And that this is probably why, you know, Bitcoiners say Bitcoin
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  is hope, you know, low time preference, all that stuff.
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  You know, you get to a certain point right where you're
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  huddling. Like I said, I think it takes
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  really four years in my opinion, depending on where you get in.
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  But most people get in the run up of the bull market and then
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  they get absolutely wrecked. And then you got to pay your
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  dues for a couple years and then you're like, oh, that was a good
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  idea. And then it just kind of goes up
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  from there. But I think the point I'm trying
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  to say is, like, the majority of the world is still treading
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  water, and therefore they inherently feel very nihilistic
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  about the future. And I think that we see this in
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  all facets of society. We see this nihilism seep into
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  people's psychology. And one of the things that I've
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  noticed is that I think a lot of people would attribute this to
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  like, you know, one of the like current political, political
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  ideologies. I wouldn't even put it to that.
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  I would say that we currently live in a system where people
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  are incentivized to act out in a certain way.
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  And I think Bitcoin will incentivize that, will
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  incentivize them to act out in a different way, which is a lot
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  more hopeful and it's a lot more aligned with everybody else's
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  incentives. I fully agree.
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  I fully agree. And it's it's interesting in
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  psychology, there's this idea of our locus of control.
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  And you can think of it as in like, do I have an external
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  locus of control, which is, do I believe that the environment
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  around me, the government, they ultimately control my
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  trajectory, I don't have much control over it.
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  Or do I have an internal locus of control, which is, I believe,
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  you know, what, if I put my time and energy here, I can get there
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  and I believe that I have control over my trajectory.
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  And what's interesting is like one, this isn't you either have
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  one or the other. It's the spectrum.
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  And it's interesting because there's so many psychological
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  studies that look at this locus of control and people that have
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  more of an external locus of control that don't believe they
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  have control over their future have much worse health outcomes.
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  They have shorter life expectancy, high rates of
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  depression, high rates of anxiety.
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  And what are we seeing in society today?
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  We're seeing all of those things, whereas people that
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  believe they have control over their trajectory have much
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  greater health outcomes, much longer life expectancy.
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  Like it's immensely beneficial when people feel they have
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  authority over their direction. That is huge.
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  And I think that one of the areas that we don't talk about
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  enough is the fact that the number one cause of stressor
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  globally, the number one cause of stress globally is money.
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  And so when people don't have monetary security, not
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  necessarily even monetary security, but even just
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  transparency about what is the future hold for me, then it's so
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  easy for people to feel stressed.
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  And that, stressed, impacts us negatively physically from a
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  health, you name it. Absolutely.
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  I, I, I 100% agreed. And you, you, you said something
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  earlier on which I kind of want to double back to.
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  And, and it relates to this theme, right, This topic that
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  we're exploring, which is you mentioned the spiritual
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  component. And I got to say like that to me
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  was like the, the, the most interesting part because I've
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  seen the story kind of time and time happen time and time again,
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  which is they weren't, let's say they didn't really, I don't want
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  to, I don't want to go down there, OK, I'm going to
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  whatever. So, you know, they didn't really
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  believe in God or they didn't really have a belief in a higher
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  being or higher purpose, you know, to be inclusive as
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  possible. And they found Bitcoin and just
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  by holding it all of a sudden like that realm opens up that to
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  me and I and I've heard that story happen with multiple
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  people. So right now it's not like a
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  single pattern. It like I've multiple different
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  that data points. And I'm so glad that you brought
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  it up, because it seems like you saw the same thing.
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  Absolutely. You know what, throughout my
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  experience in kind of the Bitcoin community and you start
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  interacting with these incredibly influential
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  individuals that have shaped how I see the world, when you start
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  to get to that. And personally, sometimes what
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  they don't talk about is how Bitcoin has almost kind of
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  opened up this awakening in them.
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  It's made them look at the world very, very differently.
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  And even for me personally, I realize how when we're
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  financially constrained and we're simply just trying to meet
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  our basic needs, we have very limited capacity to think bigger
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  than ourselves. Think about the spiritual
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  questions, the religious questions, whatever that may
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  mean to you. And I think that one of the
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  downsides to society today is because people just don't have
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  capacity. People are simply just trying to
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  survive, is that we're kind of losing our way, whether that's
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  from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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  And I think that what's so fascinating about Bitcoin, and I
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  think this is one of the coolest features of Bitcoin, is that
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  ironically, it gets us to stop thinking about money.
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  When we have greater the capacity to show up, we have
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  greater capacity to dedicate our time to asking those questions
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  such as like who, how am I like, how do I want to show up in
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  life? Like what are my values?
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  What are my morals? How do I want to raise my kids?
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  Like what do I think about like the big questions of like, what
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  is life? What is my meaning?
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  What is my purpose? And I think that that's one of
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  the challenges that the Fiat world is breaking down.
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  It's just, it just doesn't give us time to think about these
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  things. 100 percent, 100%. So you think that just by people
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  getting like people having enough time, you think that that
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  was always part of the human condition.
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  You think that that was always part of something that humanity
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  always had. But it's almost as if it was
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  obfuscated by the fact like we were just in, we're in like
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  survival mode. And because we're in survival
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  mode, we didn't have a chance or an opportunity to further, like
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  explore our consciousness. Is is that what you're like?
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  I believe so. And it's interesting when you
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  look back throughout history, if you look at say, hunter gatherer
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  tribes, hunter gatherer tribes, on average, the, the individuals
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  in the tribe will spend like something like 13 hours a week
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  hunting in order to be able to sustain themselves.
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  All of that other time they're then able to spend in community,
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  they're then able to spend around the fire telling stories,
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  then able to spend basically in connection with others that
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  allow us to kind of communicate and understand ourselves.
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  And the same thing, even if you take like the the like British
• 13:23
  feudal system, the tax rate on the British feudal system I
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  think was 10%. That's far lower than our
• 13:28
  progressive tax system now. And because people were living
• 13:31
  off the land, they had so much deeper connection with the
• 13:34
  environment around them, the community, the people around
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  them. And so I think that our current
• 13:38
  system really is breaking down our connection between one
• 13:43
  another, our connection to the land, our capacity to be able to
• 13:45
  think for ourselves. Because people these days are
• 13:48
  working 4050 sixty plus hours a week and they're still
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  struggling to survive. Yeah, man, Fiat ruins
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  everything, doesn't it? I found a very powerful quote
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  and it kind of relates to what you're saying because I want to
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  further explore that, which is right.
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  During the American Revolution, it was like, like there was a
• 14:07
  revolution for a 3% tax rate. And now like the tax rate's like
• 14:10
  39% and people are like, you know, it's fine.
• 14:12
  Everything's, you know, everything's great.
• 14:15
  But I, I saw a Ron Paul tweet and it was like, it's not only
• 14:21
  the income tax, you're paying income tax.
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  So the state is essentially like taking half of your salary, your
• 14:30
  work hostage, but also there's the tax of inflation.
• 14:35
  So you're getting hit on like both sides.
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  And the thing that I find fascinating to Seb is like,
• 14:42
  people's like, they inherently know the system's wrong.
• 14:46
  They they go seek a political solution and then the, the
• 14:50
  political situation kind of starts to boil, right.
• 14:54
  And then bitcoiners are like we, we have the key.
• 14:57
  We know, we know this isn't a political.
• 15:00
  I mean, it is, it is, but not in the fiats, not in the voting
• 15:03
  sense. So I I find that fascinating.
• 15:09
  No, I, I wholeheartedly agree. And it's, you know, what's
• 15:12
  interesting is I went to AI was in Miami recording with
• 15:15
  Breedlove a couple months ago. And this kind of before the
• 15:17
  Breedlove blow up, but we ended up going to this kind of you, it
• 15:22
  was like a dinner at a little steakhouse, but you had to pay
• 15:26
  on this like meet up app beforehand.
• 15:28
  And I was thinking about it as just like, well, we just paid
• 15:30
  tax on the meet up. But not only that, I've had to
• 15:33
  pay tax on my income to be able to even afford this in the 1st
• 15:36
  place. And then you're paying tax from
• 15:39
  the restaurant. You're paying tax.
• 15:41
  Well, the restaurant also has to pay tax itself.
• 15:44
  The all of the food, the products you're purchasing,
• 15:46
  you're also paying tax on. You're paying tax from the
• 15:49
  employees earning the wage from the restaurant.
• 15:51
  So by the time like you actually think about what you're actually
• 15:53
  spending, like such a large proportion ends up finding it's
• 15:57
  kind of way into the coffers of the government and it's just so
• 15:59
  inefficient. And it's just, it makes me feel
• 16:02
  so frustrated when when you really look at what is our take
• 16:07
  home wage and what, what are we actually able to have value to
• 16:09
  society without that being siphoned off?
• 16:11
  Yeah, yeah. And what do you think like so
• 16:16
  obviously we we like, it's such a huge proportion as Bitcoiners
• 16:20
  like it's incredibly obvious. But what do you think is like
• 16:24
  the most efficient way of like really breaking the echo
• 16:29
  chamber, really waking people up?
• 16:31
  And we've definitely made progress, right?
• 16:33
  It was, it was, I remember it like when I started simply four
• 16:36
  years ago. It's like the infancy of Bitcoin
• 16:38
  only media and none of these things have happened yet.
• 16:41
  So like there was no public, there was no name Buchele like
• 16:44
  Michael Steeler would literally just started.
• 16:46
  So like none of these things were proven.
• 16:48
  The Bitcoin, the Nashville conference was historic, you
• 16:51
  know, with with RFK and Trump and all that stuff.
• 16:56
  So I definitely think that the echo chamber is breaking.
• 17:00
  We're definitely making progress.
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  These ideas are seeping into mainstream consciousness.
• 17:05
  How do we accelerate that process 'cause I the reason, the
• 17:09
  reason I'm asking that, sorry to interrupt you, the reason I'm
• 17:11
  asking that is like, like, I feel like these people are so
• 17:14
  maniacal that they would push us into a war before, you know,
• 17:18
  losing the power of the money printer.
• 17:21
  I, you know what, I think one of the biggest things that Bitcoin
• 17:24
  struggles with is Bitcoin has a bit of a branding issue.
• 17:26
  And we have done as a community and, and the incredible giants
• 17:31
  that we stand upon kind of their shoulders have done such a
• 17:33
  phenomenal job of kind of getting Bitcoin to this point
• 17:35
  where Bitcoin is even being talked about as a strategic
• 17:39
  reserve for the US. Whether I agree with that or
• 17:41
  not, just this whole idea that Bitcoin is even being talked
• 17:43
  about on that level within 15 years is just mind blowing.
• 17:46
  But I think Bitcoin has a bit of a branding issue in that in
• 17:51
  society today because of it's just slamming it, people tend to
• 17:54
  see it as this kind of very, whether it's like capitalistic,
• 17:58
  like what's the word aneco capitalistic, kind of like
• 18:02
  technical kind of thing. And they don't quite understand
• 18:05
  what it is. And what I really do believe is
• 18:08
  that each of us in the community has our own voice.
• 18:10
  Whether you're a man and bike instructor such as myself,
• 18:13
  whether you're a dentist, whether you're a doctor, whether
• 18:15
  you're a mechanic, you all see Bitcoin from your own
• 18:18
  perspective. And so whenever I kind of go on
• 18:20
  these podcasts, whenever I'm kind of speaking in public, I
• 18:23
  always just urge people to talk about it from their perspective
• 18:26
  because you'll speak to a unique cohort of individuals.
• 18:28
  And the more we start speaking about Bitcoin from our own
• 18:31
  perspective, if you are a dentist and you start speaking
• 18:34
  to your clients about it from your perspective, you're going
• 18:35
  to resonate with a whole cohort of individuals that I might not
• 18:38
  resonate with or you may not resonate with.
• 18:40
  And I think that changing the perspective of Bitcoin so that
• 18:44
  it's not this capitalistic aneco technical thing and really just
• 18:49
  talking about it from the perspective that this is just
• 18:51
  money, all it is, is money that allows us to show up more
• 18:53
  authentically and everybody wants to show up more
• 18:55
  authentically. I think that's how we're going
• 18:57
  to really resonate with kind of the average individual.
• 19:00
  I love that. So it's like the individual
• 19:02
  Bitcoiners are bitcoiners marketing team.
• 19:05
  I'm going to ask you like talk, talk, walk me through your
• 19:08
  Bitcoin story. How do you find Bitcoin?
• 19:11
  It's you know what is interesting.
• 19:13
  I, I was on Princess podcast. This is probably about three
• 19:17
  years ago and we were kind of batting back and forth and we're
• 19:19
  just like, man, most of us have these kind of orange pill
• 19:22
  moments before Bitcoin was even around.
• 19:24
  It's kind of these pre orange pill moments and I kind of had
• 19:26
  like 3 moments that really opened my eyes to starting to
• 19:29
  question the system around me. The first one was when my
• 19:32
  parents separated when I was kind of five years old.
• 19:35
  I was raised by my, I was raised by my mom and I've got two
• 19:40
  brothers. There's three of us, my mom and
• 19:42
  my mom basically wasn't able to necessarily meet our emotional
• 19:44
  needs to the extent that she would like to be able to because
• 19:47
  she had to support a family. And so I started to see in
• 19:50
  hindsight how much like when parents separated, when parents
• 19:54
  aren't able to the life which they want to be able to afford,
• 19:58
  it impacts their kids emotionally.
• 19:59
  And that can lead to all of these other issues, whether it's
• 20:01
  ADHD, where the suppression anxiety.
• 20:03
  So it's like, huh, money really weaves its influence into our
• 20:06
  relationships. And then the next one was.
• 20:09
  When I was about nine years old, and I've spoken about this a few
• 20:11
  times, but I always find it just interesting.
• 20:13
  When I was about nine years old, there was a scooter that I
• 20:15
  really wanted. It was in a toy store and I
• 20:17
  remember just being like, that's the scooter I want, I'm going to
• 20:19
  save and I'm going to buy that scooter.
• 20:21
  So I saved up for like 3 months. We walk into this toy store and
• 20:24
  I walk in with my dad and my two brothers and my dad's like, I
• 20:28
  feel guilty that you're getting a scooter and your two brothers
• 20:30
  aren't, so I'm going to buy them a scooter, but you got to pay
• 20:33
  for yours out of your savings. And I just spent three months
• 20:35
  working for the scooter and I was freaking devastated.
• 20:37
  I was just like, this feels so unfair.
• 20:40
  I've just spent three months working and I see my brothers
• 20:42
  just get their scooters and I've had to work for mine.
• 20:45
  And what's interesting is in economics, you got the Cantillon
• 20:48
  effect, which is those closest to the monetary spigot benefit
• 20:52
  disproportionately. And on a micro scale, my two
• 20:54
  brothers were much closer to my dad than I was.
• 20:56
  And so he would always financially support them and
• 20:58
  help them. And what's interesting is that
• 21:00
  as they've kind of evolved, as they've become adults, they're
• 21:03
  much more left-leaning interventionistic socialist and
• 21:06
  a much more right leaning libertarian free market.
• 21:09
  And so you start to see how the way our parents interact with us
• 21:12
  starts to change how we shape our kind of political views or
• 21:16
  how we kind of want to sharpen this world.
• 21:17
  And then the final one that I'll kind of touch on is I was a man
• 21:21
  and bike instructor for over a decade.
• 21:22
  I, I taught man and biking. I absolutely loved teaching man
• 21:25
  and biking. But when I started teaching
• 21:27
  mountain biking in my teenage years, I started interacting
• 21:30
  with like the Tiger Woods of the mountain bike world that are
• 21:32
  kind of the, the, the elite athletes that are in kind of all
• 21:36
  the movies. But as I started interacting
• 21:37
  with them, I realized that most of them are up to the neck in
• 21:40
  debt. They're renting a unit.
• 21:42
  They're not, they can't afford to really live.
• 21:44
  And I was just like, man, like our current monetary environment
• 21:47
  doesn't really allow us to show up and pursue our passions.
• 21:49
  It's incredibly hard to get by. And so these kind of three
• 21:53
  events, these interactions with my parents, the saving and how
• 21:57
  whether we're financially supported to the extent my light
• 21:59
  interacts our political views and our ability to show up
• 22:02
  authentically and pursue the things we're interested in
• 22:04
  really started having me question how is our money
• 22:07
  influencing how we're showing up?
• 22:09
  And that ultimately ended up leading me down this rabbit hole
• 22:11
  of Bitcoin. Wow, OK, wow, it's so good,
• 22:17
  dude. OK, so much to impact there.
• 22:20
  All right, so I didn't know you're a mountain bike
• 22:22
  instructor. That's bad ass.
• 22:23
  I I, I, I used to go to Colorado during the summer and that was a
• 22:26
  big thing. I remember I had this one fall.
• 22:29
  I never forget it because I effed up my hand.
• 22:32
  But but dude, that that's did you do the the courses too where
• 22:36
  you do the jumps? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:39
  I used, I used to teach, teach everything from kind of the more
• 22:42
  the slopestyle, the tricks all the way through to the kind of
• 22:44
  the downhill stuff. And it's been, it's really cool
• 22:46
  actually to see when, because I'm now I'm 31 and I've been
• 22:49
  teaching since I was 16. And so I've seen some of the
• 22:51
  kids that are kind of like 7-8 when I was teaching them grow up
• 22:54
  to now be like world cloth athletes.
• 22:56
  And it's just awesome. Coolest, coolest thing.
• 22:59
  That's really cool, man. It sounds very like purposeful,
• 23:03
  like, you know, like I like, I really believe that human beings
• 23:06
  need a purpose and like, I feel like that is something that,
• 23:09
  yeah, that, that sounds awesome. OK.
• 23:11
  I couldn't agree more. And I was just going to say like
• 23:13
  one thing, it's interesting because teaching man and biking
• 23:16
  and Bitcoin, you're just like, man, these things couldn't be
• 23:18
  further from one another, But they actually to me, they're
• 23:22
  very, very similar in that man and biking is when I was
• 23:25
  teaching man and biking. It's like, how do I distill down
• 23:27
  these complex biomechanical movements into the simplest form
• 23:30
  so someone can understand, OK, I want to hit this jump.
• 23:33
  How do I do that? And for me, when it comes to
• 23:35
  Bitcoin, it's exactly the same. It's, we've got this complex
• 23:38
  thing that people don't quite understand, whether we're
• 23:40
  talking about Bitcoin, whether we're talking about
• 23:42
  macroeconomics, whether we're talking about psychology and
• 23:45
  money. How do we break this down so
• 23:47
  that people can just understand it?
• 23:48
  Because ultimately it's I, I think it's, it's a skill and
• 23:51
  it's a pleasure to listen to someone breaking something down
• 23:54
  so we can understand it as a lay person. 100% And one of the most
• 23:58
  difficult things to do also is explain like a complex,
• 24:04
  sophisticated thing in a simple fashion.
• 24:09
  And then of course, if you're able to do that, then your
• 24:12
  ability to explain it to a larger audience increases.
• 24:15
  Right now, my question for you is how did you go from being a
• 24:20
  mountain biker, a mountain biker and a mountain biker instructor
• 24:25
  to writing a book? Where do these how did that?
• 24:29
  How did that, How did those two come together?
• 24:33
  When I started teaching man and biking, I realized pretty early
• 24:35
  on, as I mentioned, that, man, I'm going to struggle to make it
• 24:39
  if unless I'm kind of a top, top, top tier athlete.
• 24:42
  And so given that I didn't really want to compete, I'm not
• 24:45
  that competitive, I started to invest in real estate.
• 24:47
  I started to save all of my money and just try and buy some
• 24:50
  small little rental properties. And so as I started to kind of
• 24:53
  accumulate a little bit of capital and then invest in real
• 24:55
  estate, I started to get curious about the financial markets.
• 24:58
  I loved real estate, but it just felt like, oh man, investing in
• 25:01
  a property that you're paying off over 30 years, like I'm
• 25:03
  freaking 20 years old, like I'm going to be 50 before I pay this
• 25:06
  thing off. So then I was like, I wonder if
• 25:07
  there's a way for me to kind of play around with something
• 25:11
  that's a little more instant and rewarding.
• 25:12
  So I started trading in the financial markets and for about
• 25:15
  a decade I traded in the financial markets.
• 25:17
  And although I really enjoyed it, I went into it with this
• 25:20
  idea that we are in a free market.
• 25:22
  And so when we go through tough times, companies that have been
• 25:25
  fiscally irresponsible be wiped clean.
• 25:27
  And as long as I find companies offer value to society and I buy
• 25:31
  these things at pennies on the dollar, then I should be able to
• 25:34
  crush it financially. So I started kind of that's How
• 25:36
  I Met Preston Pesch. I started listening to his
• 25:38
  podcasts and looking at the value approach, and I was
• 25:41
  completely blown away. But then I started to realize we
• 25:44
  go into these economic turmoil periods where I expect the
• 25:47
  market to collapse, but then the market goes up, It doesn't go
• 25:49
  down. And I'm just like, what is
• 25:50
  happening? And that's when I started
• 25:52
  digging into intervention and you start realizing we have
• 25:55
  nothing even close to a free market.
• 25:57
  We have intervention and interest rates.
• 25:59
  We have quantitative easing. We have money being ejected into
• 26:02
  the economy. We have helicopter money being
• 26:03
  handed to individuals. And this is completely
• 26:05
  distorting the free market. It's complete distorting how
• 26:08
  people think about saving and investing.
• 26:11
  And it pushes people into certain types of investments.
• 26:13
  And naturally, when you go down that route, you're just like,
• 26:16
  well, what's happening? Why is this happening?
• 26:18
  And it kind of leads you down the rabbit hole of money.
• 26:20
  And when the pandemic hit, this is when it really opened my eyes
• 26:25
  as to just how insane this intervention had gotten to the
• 26:28
  point where we should have been experiencing like a depression
• 26:30
  type event. And instead house prices have
• 26:33
  doubled and in many places even tripled since the pandemic.
• 26:36
  And so that made me question, OK, there's something broken in
• 26:38
  the money here, Let's dig in deeper.
• 26:41
  And I was passionate about Bitcoin, but at the time I was
• 26:43
  looking at Bitcoin more from just a speculative of asset.
• 26:46
  Can I just invest in this thing that goes up and then I can sell
• 26:48
  it for fear? And so as I started to dig
• 26:51
  deeper into Bitcoin, I realized, hey, I love teaching.
• 26:54
  I love helping people understand.
• 26:56
  I, you know what I think I want to try and help support people
• 26:59
  from the front of money. And so I wrote my first article,
• 27:01
  I think it was in like May of 2020 or May of 2021, I can't
• 27:05
  quite remember. And it talks about it's called
• 27:08
  When more isn't Better inflation in the 21st century and why
• 27:11
  inflation was creating wealth inequality.
• 27:13
  And at the time, I think I had like 7 followers on Twitter and
• 27:17
  Alex Gladstein and Greg Foch shared the article when I was
• 27:19
  just completely at war. So that, that's that's kind of
• 27:22
  how it transitioned. That's awesome.
• 27:24
  And man, I love, don't you love the Bitcoin community?
• 27:27
  It's, it's like, it's like judge, judge you not based on
• 27:31
  your credentials or whatever, just you judge based on your
• 27:34
  proof of work. And I've, I've seen, it's so
• 27:38
  many, I've heard this story so many times where it's like, I,
• 27:41
  you know, I was new to the community and I just did
• 27:43
  something freaking awesome. And then the community
• 27:47
  highlighted it and, you know, I started getting traction.
• 27:50
  So glad to, you know, hear that it's a very similar story again
• 27:53
  now. OK, so you wrote the article and
• 27:57
  then how many articles until you ended up writing the book?
• 28:00
  So there was probably. So for a period of time I was
• 28:03
  writing for kind of Bitcoin magazine and a couple others.
• 28:07
  Yeah, yeah. And I started writing, I'd say
• 28:10
  one article every kind of two to three months.
• 28:12
  And I tend to, I'm not really a kind of a social media dude.
• 28:15
  I don't tend to write like short form, catchy, punchy stuff.
• 28:18
  Like it's not really who I am. Like I really like to try and
• 28:21
  help people understand the intricacies of things and how
• 28:23
  things actually work from kind of a more holistic approach.
• 28:26
  So I started writing these long form articles and I would say
• 28:30
  there's probably 10 to 20 articles.
• 28:36
  I wanted to kind of really gain traction.
• 28:37
  And so then it was in 2021 that Greg Foss, myself, Daz, Max
• 28:44
  DeMarco and a cup on James Lavish and we kind of started
• 28:47
  Looking Glass and Looking Glass education.
• 28:49
  Our whole goal, as I mentioned at the very start was how do we
• 28:51
  just educate people and remove the jargon from finance and
• 28:54
  weave Bitcoin into this. And so from there it kind of
• 28:57
  started to grow. Daz and I ended up writing a
• 28:59
  book called Beers for Bitcoin. That was kind of the first book
• 29:01
  we wrote. We didn't actually even intend
• 29:03
  to write it as a book. We wrote it as a course
• 29:05
  initially and they were like, man, this seems like 30,000
• 29:07
  words. Let's just go through and
• 29:09
  command find and replace. And we found and replaced all
• 29:12
  the modules and converted it to chapters and then just put it
• 29:15
  out as a book. And then I'd say it was
• 29:17
  September of 2022. And I was just like, you know
• 29:21
  what? I feel like there is a book
• 29:22
  missing, and that book is a book that really just talks about how
• 29:26
  money weaves its influence into our relationships, into our
• 29:29
  environment, into our politics, into our business, and what
• 29:33
  would we have to do to be able to realign those incentives?
• 29:36
  Because I also recognize, and Jeff Booth took this approach in
• 29:39
  his book, The Price of Tomorrow, where if we bring Bitcoin out
• 29:43
  too early, when you're talking with someone new to thinking
• 29:45
  about money, if we bring it out too early, the walls go up and
• 29:49
  they just, they just walk away or they're just not really
• 29:52
  interested. They get defensive.
• 29:53
  And so how do we help someone see that Bitcoin is a potential
• 29:56
  solution? And the way that I think that I
• 29:59
  absolutely love that Jeff Booth did is that he really defined
• 30:02
  the problem before ever touching the solution.
• 30:05
  And so I took the same approach with the hidden cost of money.
• 30:08
  I went into, OK, this is what we're feeling and I really tried
• 30:11
  to hit on the main pain points that society is feeling right
• 30:14
  now that we're struggling to show up authentically, where our
• 30:17
  financial capacity is impacting our ability to relate with our
• 30:21
  kids, our ability to kind of afford housing and food is
• 30:24
  struggling. We're noticing a breakdown in
• 30:26
  politics. Like I really try to hit on
• 30:27
  these kind of core themes that people struggle with, define the
• 30:30
  problem and then backwards engineer Bitcoin.
• 30:32
  OK, well, if this is a problem, how would we have to recreate
• 30:37
  money in order to be able to realign those incentives?
• 30:40
  Well, we'd need a fixed supply so that we have increasing
• 30:42
  purchasing power over time. We would need to have a
• 30:44
  decentralized system so that someone we don't we're not
• 30:46
  relying on centralized entities. We would have to have a
• 30:49
  permissionless system. So we're not needing permission
• 30:51
  to be able to direct our capital where we see fit and vice versa.
• 30:54
  And so as you break it down and kind of reverse engineer
• 30:57
  Bitcoin, people can start to this is this is where Bitcoin
• 31:01
  fits in in society. And then ultimately you say, do
• 31:03
  we have any options like this? And you, you kind of like hand
• 31:06
  them on a platter Bitcoin. So that that was kind of my
• 31:08
  approach to kind of riding the hidden cost of money and
• 31:11
  interesting it, it seemed to resonate.
• 31:14
  Yeah, obviously, obviously it did that dude, that that's so
• 31:18
  fascinating and but I love those guys too.
• 31:21
  Foss, lavish, DeMarco, super talented.
• 31:25
  Yeah, man, that that's, that's really, it's really noble.
• 31:27
  It's it's really awesome. And I guess my question to you
• 31:30
  is like what, what things have you learned across like along
• 31:35
  the way? You mentioned one, which is like
• 31:37
  people shut down if you mentioned Bitcoin too soon or or
• 31:39
  they perhaps they categorize it and like, what does this have to
• 31:43
  do with anything? Like, you know, like, why are
• 31:47
  you bringing up crypto? Like you were talking about
• 31:50
  economics, Like what does what does one have to do with the
• 31:52
  other? But what are some other things
• 31:54
  that you learned along the way? And the reason I'm asking that
• 31:56
  is for is like roughly almost 600 people watching us live
• 31:59
  right now. What, what like, you know, and
• 32:02
  they have an aunt or they have a cousin or they have someone
• 32:06
  that's a holdout. And for whatever reason, they're
• 32:08
  still consuming CNN and they're still, you know, but they still
• 32:14
  believe in in Fiat and whatever. Like what advice would you give
• 32:19
  that person in order? Like, how would you orange that?
• 32:21
  How would? What advice would you would you
• 32:23
  give? So, and this may be a little bit
• 32:26
  more controversial in terms of the advice, but I think that
• 32:30
  currently the Bitcoin community sometimes tries to educate from
• 32:34
  the the perspective of like a freaking strict 60s parent.
• 32:37
  Like if someone isn't doing what we wanted to do, we get out the
• 32:39
  whip and we freaking hit them with the whip and we crack the
• 32:42
  belt over them. And we see that with the like I
• 32:45
  do not invest in other crypto. I'm 100% Bitcoin only and my
• 32:49
  dedication for as long as I can see is going to be with Bitcoin.
• 32:52
  But I recognize that people are always curious and people have
• 32:55
  to come to their own conclusions.
• 32:57
  And so sometimes when we get overly aggressive, when we kind
• 33:00
  of become this kind of as Bitcoin deems like the toxic
• 33:03
  maximalist, I think that sometimes we can do a
• 33:05
  disservice. And there are other Bitcoiners
• 33:07
  that disagree. And I and I and I support their
• 33:09
  views, but I tend to look at it from the perspective of if we
• 33:12
  want to support children from an education perspective, you have
• 33:15
  to allow them to be curious. And then you have to be there as
• 33:18
  a guiding pillar to be like, hey, whenever you're ready to
• 33:21
  talk about Bitcoin or whenever you're ready to look this
• 33:23
  direction, I'm more than happy to share whatever resources like
• 33:27
  you're interested in. And so I think that's kind of
• 33:30
  the first stage is that we shouldn't criticize.
• 33:32
  We can always put up a fair argument as to why Bitcoin over
• 33:36
  crypto, but the moment we start to criticize, the moment we
• 33:39
  start to slam, that actually ends up impacting people's
• 33:42
  perspective on us and our own reputation.
• 33:45
  And then secondly, I think when it comes to what was it, there's
• 33:49
  a point that I was just going to make when it comes to education.
• 33:55
  I've completely blanked on that point.
• 33:57
  Oh good. Yeah.
• 33:59
  But you know what, there was actually one other point which
• 34:00
  is going to make, which is coming up as as you were kind of
• 34:03
  asking that question, which is this is actually kind of not
• 34:06
  necessarily Bitcoin related, but this has helped me immensely as
• 34:10
  I've gone into Bitcoin. It's really reshaped how I think
• 34:13
  about the world. And there was this guy that once
• 34:16
  sat down with me and he said to me said, when it comes to goal
• 34:19
  setting, most of us are focused on what are called the three PS,
• 34:22
  which are prestige. We want to kind of look the
• 34:25
  part. We want to kind of be cool in
• 34:26
  society. We want to have that prestige
• 34:27
  around us. Possessions.
• 34:29
  We want to buy the Lambo. We want to focus on buying the
• 34:32
  nice house. We want to focus on like these
• 34:34
  things, these material goods and power, prestige, possessions and
• 34:38
  power. We want to have the job where we
• 34:39
  kind of have authority over others.
• 34:41
  But if we actually just ask ourselves the question, what is
• 34:43
  it that makes us happy in life? What are kind of the top two or
• 34:47
  three events that have happened throughout my life?
• 34:49
  And they don't tend to be prestige power possessions.
• 34:52
  Instead, they are contributions, challenges, and connections.
• 34:56
  So contributions, giving back to society, challenges challenging
• 34:59
  ourselves and doing things that we enjoy and that push our
• 35:02
  bounds, and connections, connecting with those that we
• 35:04
  love and connecting with the community and connecting with
• 35:07
  family. And what's interesting is that
• 35:10
  we, I truly believe that we've got an issue in society where
• 35:13
  we're too focused on prestige, power and possessions.
• 35:15
  And instead we should be focusing instead on connections,
• 35:17
  contributions and challenges. And what I love about Bitcoin
• 35:20
  is, is that we tend to be focused on those three.
• 35:22
  We, we're, we love community and the community is freaking
• 35:25
  phenomenal. And people are willing to
• 35:27
  challenge themselves and put themselves out there.
• 35:29
  And I really, that's one thing that I try to push this rather
• 35:32
  than talking just about like the technical aspects about Bitcoin,
• 35:35
  It's also about just the ethos and the community which Bitcoin
• 35:38
  resonates and emanates. And I I really support that.
• 35:41
  Yeah. And I want to kind of connect
• 35:44
  this with what we were talking about earlier versus Bitcoiners
• 35:47
  are operating on a on a different spectrum than a lot of
• 35:52
  people. So is it is it that the rest of
• 35:54
  the world isn't thinking about this?
• 35:57
  Or is that they they can't think about this because they're just
• 35:59
  too busy trying to survive? I think that it, again, it's
• 36:02
  what we talked about earlier, it's the incentives of the
• 36:05
  system incentivize consumerism. Given that our money is worth
• 36:08
  less over time and our purchasing power is greatest in
• 36:10
  this present moment, we're incentivized to consume.
• 36:13
  And so we have this society that seems to put a lot of value into
• 36:16
  material things. But as you see, it's not making
• 36:19
  people happier. I would say we've got an
• 36:20
  epidemic of unhappiness and depression and anxiety.
• 36:24
  On the flip side, when you look at the Bitcoin community, people
• 36:26
  are thinking about saving. And the moment we think about
• 36:28
  saving, if we're not actually spending our money to assume in
• 36:31
  this present moment, well, we think about happiness very
• 36:34
  differently. I'm not going to go purchase
• 36:35
  this thing. Instead, you know what, I want
• 36:37
  to go hang out with my friend. We're actually, you know what, I
• 36:39
  want to spend some time actually with myself, with my dog walking
• 36:42
  through the forest. So there's a lot more
• 36:43
  reflection. And happiness comes about from
• 36:45
  reflection and internal dialogue as opposed to external things.
• 36:49
  Whenever we're purchasing something, it's a fleeting
• 36:51
  moment. You may be happy for a few
• 36:52
  seconds, but happiness very much.
• 36:54
  If we want long standing happiness and joy in our life,
• 36:57
  we have to love ourselves and we have to understand ourselves and
• 37:00
  we have to have goals and ambitions and challenge
• 37:03
  ourselves and have community. Yeah, I I 100% agree, man.
• 37:09
  It's, it's, it's the the hidden cost of money.
• 37:19
  Oh, man. All right.
• 37:20
  So I do want to kind of double back to some of the themes that
• 37:25
  we were talking about earlier. Not themes, but essentially you
• 37:27
  broke down your your book into three different parts.
• 37:30
  This is psychology, the meaninglessness of the Fiat and
• 37:35
  then compassion towards the end. So I want to go back to the
• 37:40
  psychological aspect of that because it's something that
• 37:44
  really, really fascinates me and it's really, really interesting.
• 37:48
  And I think it explains a lot of the, and I'm, I'm positive that
• 37:57
  you're going to, you're going to be able to elaborate a little
• 37:59
  bit more on this. But it it what are things that
• 38:04
  are happening now in society that people perhaps may not
• 38:07
  attribute to broken money, but is attributed to broken money
• 38:12
  that makes you like just want to get on a rooftop and scream
• 38:15
  about it that people just don't see?
• 38:20
  That's a big question because there's so many different ways
• 38:22
  to answer that question. OK, so when it comes to I, I
• 38:28
  would actually argue that most of the challenges that we face
• 38:30
  in society stem from broken money and we can go through a
• 38:34
  few of these. So let's just talk about for a
• 38:36
  second the parent child bond. When our money is losing value
• 38:41
  over time, it becomes harder for parents to be able to show up.
• 38:45
  And what that first means is that OK, if parents have to work
• 38:49
  longer hours, then parents aren't able to spend that same
• 38:52
  amount of time with their kids and their kids spend more time
• 38:54
  with their peers. Well, if kids are spending more
• 38:55
  time with their peers, peer relationships when we're
• 38:57
  younger, when we're, when we're sub kind of 1213 years old, peer
• 39:01
  relationships are very superficial.
• 39:02
  So kids want to look the same. They want to sound the same.
• 39:04
  They want to have the same mannerisms.
• 39:05
  And so kids today have kind of an identity crisis.
• 39:09
  They have huge amounts of depression and anxiety because
• 39:11
  they don't really know who they are.
• 39:12
  They don't have that moral compass that that that North
• 39:15
  Star, which is their parent or their elders, because their
• 39:18
  parents and their elders are kind of off worth working.
• 39:21
  And so already you start to say, OK, if money is breaking down,
• 39:23
  parents can't spend as much time as their kids.
• 39:26
  Now, secondly, it not only impacts kids once they're
• 39:30
  actually born and kind of going out into the world, but as a
• 39:32
  woman, the number one stressor globally is money and stress.
• 39:37
  When we feel stress, if you're pregnant and you've got kind of
• 39:40
  a kid inside of you who's freaking ruminating and getting
• 39:43
  ready to kind of burst out of there.
• 39:44
  If you're feeling immense amounts of stress, that shows
• 39:48
  itself as cortisol, epinephrine, adrenaline throughout the body.
• 39:51
  And then that starts to impact the kid who is kind of at the
• 39:55
  moment kind of cooking and getting ready to kind of kind of
• 39:58
  come to life. And what's interesting is that
• 40:01
  if a kids nervous system is flooded with these stress
• 40:05
  hormones like cortisol, epinephrine and adrenaline, then
• 40:08
  when that kid is born, they have a hypersensitive nervous system.
• 40:11
  That hypersensitive nervous system.
• 40:12
  There are countless studies showing how.
• 40:16
  Kids with a high sensitive nervous system have much shorter
• 40:18
  life expectancy, much higher rates of autism, much higher
• 40:21
  rates of like depression, anxiety, again, much higher
• 40:23
  rates of drug use. And so you can start to feel
• 40:26
  just having monetary stress on the mom alone.
• 40:29
  If that stress is severe enough, which I would say it is given
• 40:31
  that it's the number one stressor globally that's
• 40:33
  impacting kids before they're even born.
• 40:35
  So that's from the relational side of things.
• 40:37
  Well, then you take a look at the environmental side of
• 40:39
  things. When our money, and Jeff Booth
• 40:41
  talks about this, when our money is breaking down over time,
• 40:45
  we're incentivized to consume. Now when we consume and we kind
• 40:48
  of purchase goods and services, those goods and services are
• 40:50
  made-up of resources. So we're decimating our
• 40:53
  waterways, we're decimating our forests, we're dissipating our
• 40:55
  minerals in order to basically just consume as much as we can
• 40:59
  throughout society and kind of feed this consumer driven
• 41:02
  society. Whereas I truly believe when
• 41:04
  you've got something like Bitcoin, it flips it on its head
• 41:07
  whereby if our purchasing power is increasing over time, we're
• 41:10
  incentivized to save. Now, that's not to say that
• 41:13
  we're not going to consume. We're probably still going to go
• 41:14
  and consume because people still want to live, they still want to
• 41:17
  enjoy life. But when we consume, we're going
• 41:20
  to be a lot more conscious about what we consume.
• 41:22
  And if we're consuming less, first, that means if you're a
• 41:24
  company that's really just offering kind of crappy
• 41:26
  products, you're probably going to wither away.
• 41:29
  And secondly, if you're a company that is actually
• 41:31
  offering products, given that there's less capital coming into
• 41:33
  the consumption market, you're going to force competition.
• 41:36
  If you're forcing competition, the quality of the product tends
• 41:39
  to increase. So they're going to look at
• 41:40
  other ways to be able to support their customer, whether that's
• 41:43
  the quality of the product, increase the quality of the the
• 41:46
  resources that make up that product.
• 41:48
  And so I think that money is shaping how we're interacting
• 41:50
  with our environment. Money is shaping how we're
• 41:53
  interacting with our relationships.
• 41:54
  And then the same thing is true for politics, that when the
• 41:57
  government has a money printer, it doesn't have to be fiscally
• 42:00
  responsible. If we are a small little mum and
• 42:03
  pup shop and we don't balance our books, then we're going to
• 42:06
  go out of business. So what that means is we're to
• 42:08
  be very conscious about where we spend our money to be able to
• 42:10
  ensure that our money is offering value to society and
• 42:14
  people value our products. When the government does not
• 42:17
  balance its books and it runs massive deficits, well, it's
• 42:21
  able to fund operations through debasement to the currency at
• 42:24
  the expense of the currency holders.
• 42:26
  And so the government has no incentive to actually offer
• 42:28
  value to society. So at the moment, the incentives
• 42:30
  are completely misaligned. And so those are just kind of
• 42:33
  like three main areas. Like we're talking about like
• 42:35
  government, we're talking about the environment, we're talking
• 42:37
  about relationships. And so I'll give one more
• 42:41
  actually kind of solid example that I always think is really
• 42:43
  fascinating. But during the pandemic in
• 42:45
  Canada, we had something called the Serb, the Canadian Emergency
• 42:48
  response benefit. And basically, if you earn less
• 42:51
  than 10% of your income, sorry, if you lost more than 10% of
• 42:54
  your income, you are entitled to the Serb, which is $2000 a
• 42:58
  month. That's $24,000 a year in
• 43:00
  stimulus and basically helicopter money.
• 43:02
  Now when you look at Canada's tax receipts, 30% of Canadians
• 43:07
  earn under $24,000 a year. So you've now given 30% of
• 43:11
  Canadians the option, do you want to work for $24,000 a year
• 43:15
  or do you want to just get handed $24,000 a year and not
• 43:18
  work? What option are they going to
• 43:19
  take? They're going to take the
• 43:20
  latter. So you end up having immense
• 43:22
  amounts of people basically give up their job and all of these
• 43:25
  small businesses, mom and pop shops, bicycle shops, cafes,
• 43:28
  restaurants, they couldn't find any staff and it completely
• 43:30
  destroyed the small business market in Canada.
• 43:32
  And So what you start to realize is that when the government
• 43:35
  controls the money printer, when you have a money that can be Co
• 43:38
  opted, it leads to all of these byproducts.
• 43:41
  What should have happened during the pandemic is that if you're a
• 43:43
  company, you've been fiscally responsible going into the
• 43:45
  pandemic and you did not balance your books, then you would go
• 43:48
  out of business, which means that the companies that are
• 43:50
  offering value would be able to rise up.
• 43:52
  There was no stimulus. There was nothing incentivizing
• 43:55
  people to stop working. And I think that it misaligns
• 43:58
  the incentives when we have a money that allows people to
• 44:01
  intervene. 100% And, and you can, you can even make the
• 44:04
  argument that, and, and I've come to this conclusion, maybe
• 44:08
  you, you come to another conclusion that the ability for
• 44:13
  the government to print money is freaking evil.
• 44:16
  It's, it's like it is evil. It gives politicians this false
• 44:21
  sense of illusion that they can play God in a way.
• 44:25
  And the consequences of that in the last century have been like
• 44:30
  catastrophic. Like, it's just like you could
• 44:35
  attribute millions of deaths to this unique.
• 44:38
  I mean, we say this all the time, right?
• 44:40
  You know, fix the money, fix the world and the endless wars,
• 44:42
  right? So I don't know if you see it
• 44:46
  differently. But no, I absolutely like fully,
• 44:49
  fully and I am on board. And it's interesting in the
• 44:52
  book, I kind of the way I kind of describe money is that money
• 44:56
  is just a medium of expression. And what do I mean by that?
• 45:00
  Like language, it's how we express to the world what it is
• 45:03
  that we value. And so if you go into a grocery
• 45:05
  store and you see someone buying grass fed beef and organic
• 45:08
  vegetables and then another person buying cigarettes and
• 45:10
  candy, you can see what it is that they value.
• 45:13
  So how they spend their money. Now, what's interesting is that
• 45:16
  as a society, if you look at a society as a kind of a holistic
• 45:19
  entity, you can see what they value based upon where money
• 45:23
  flows in society. So do they value grass fed
• 45:26
  organic farming? Do they value war?
• 45:28
  Do they value sports? Like you'll see where money
• 45:31
  flows based upon societal values and preferences.
• 45:34
  But what is interesting is that that's assuming we're in a free
• 45:37
  market. When you start to get censorship
• 45:40
  such as inflation, our purchasing power is being taken
• 45:42
  from us. The government is spending that
• 45:44
  purchasing power elsewhere in society.
• 45:46
  When you get capital controls which prevent us from spending
• 45:50
  our money where we see fit. When you look at say China,
• 45:52
  China because of their the current fiscal situation, they
• 45:56
  don't allow Chinese individuals to invest abroad.
• 45:58
  So it keeps money inside of the inside of the nation that allows
• 46:01
  them to debase their currency at the currency holders expense.
• 46:04
  So when you start seeing things like inflation and capital
• 46:07
  controls regulations, you start to see a misdirection or kind of
• 46:13
  you're altering the direction of capital flows in society.
• 46:16
  And so if you look at society today, I would say that there's
• 46:19
  a large portion of the population that do not believe
• 46:21
  in war. They're very anti war.
• 46:23
  I myself am anti war. I'm never going to direct my
• 46:26
  capital towards something that supports war.
• 46:28
  I don't want to express myself as an an individual that is
• 46:31
  supporting war. But unfortunately, given that
• 46:33
  the government has a money printer, they can print dollars,
• 46:36
  fund war at my expense. And when you look at the society
• 46:41
  on the whole, oh, look, there's a ton of money going towards
• 46:43
  war, that must mean society supports war.
• 46:45
  And so we have a completely distorted view on what we
• 46:48
  believe society values. And how does a free market
• 46:50
  function if we don't know what businesses should survive, what
• 46:53
  businesses shouldn't survive, what society values, what
• 46:56
  society doesn't value? Because ultimately for a free
• 46:58
  market to function, we need to be able to start a business and
• 47:01
  say, hey, this, this product is offering value because I see
• 47:04
  capital flowing towards me. Not artificial capital, not
• 47:06
  capital because of regulations, not capital as a result of money
• 47:09
  printing, but capital because people value my products.
• 47:12
  And that's something we don't have today.
• 47:13
  Of course, and then you know and you have all these zombie
• 47:16
  companies and then this is something that Safedeen talks
• 47:19
  about in his book, right, which is like the quality of the food
• 47:22
  start to decrease like all these on the what you were saying like
• 47:26
  these unintended consequences. Now my question to you is, and I
• 47:31
  think that we are slowly entering this kind of moment in
• 47:37
  history. I think what we've been seeing
• 47:38
  over the last five years is really something that I call the
• 47:42
  disintermediation of information with the rise of social media
• 47:45
  and mass scale peer-to-peer communications, right?
• 47:48
  And that has severely diminished the government's ability to
• 47:52
  control the narrative. And they they weren't prepared
• 47:55
  for it. Like they as soon as, you know,
• 47:58
  Bitcoiners are huge fans of Noster and I get it.
• 48:00
  But the reality is that the volume is on Twitter, it's on X.
• 48:04
  So as soon as Elon acquired the platform and freed the bird, so
• 48:08
  to speak, it had a massive change to society, right?
• 48:12
  And you, you see them, you see this with his recent lawsuit.
• 48:16
  And you see, and we, it's almost like we didn't, we weren't
• 48:19
  aware. And I saw this really powerful
• 48:22
  statement, which is, I forget who it was, but it was like the
• 48:25
  war in Iraq wouldn't have happened if social media existed
• 48:28
  back in the 2000. I was like, holy shit, like that
• 48:31
  is so true. So I think that's where society
• 48:34
  is kind of living through right now.
• 48:35
  But I think where we're heading into is the disintermediation of
• 48:39
  money. Like we're in the very early
• 48:41
  that we're in the infancy of that, but I, I, I don't think
• 48:46
  that the clash has happened. So what am I talking about?
• 48:48
  The clash? I'm talking about the
• 48:50
  politicians and the corporations that do benefit tremendously
• 48:54
  from the power of the money printer versus the people.
• 48:57
  Like, and I would say, and I would say the people as in
• 49:00
  Bitcoin, right? Because Bitcoin is the people's
• 49:02
  money. No espresso privileges here.
• 49:05
  So, like, what's your take on that?
• 49:08
  Like, what do you think that it's going to be?
• 49:10
  In my opinion, it's going to be like, you know, we've, we've
• 49:12
  gone through some of these points in human history, like
• 49:15
  the separation of church and state.
• 49:17
  It was so freaking bloody. I hope this one isn't as bloody.
• 49:20
  I don't think it will be, but it like human history was never the
• 49:24
  same after that. So what's your take?
• 49:27
  Like what how do you see this happening?
• 49:30
  Do you see this being peaceful as more and more people wake up
• 49:33
  to bitcoins incentives and then all of a sudden you have Larry
• 49:35
  Fink kind of changing team. Do you see it like, you know,
• 49:39
  the the administrative state, like just saying like, no, we
• 49:42
  need the money printer. What are you talking about?
• 49:45
  Like, you know, how have you seen that specific subject?
• 49:49
  You know, it's, it's really challenging because I think that
• 49:52
  we can look at it from the perspective of what I hope will
• 49:54
  happen. And then we can look at it from
• 49:55
  the perspective of what I think will happen.
• 49:57
  And what I hope will happen is that as Bitcoin slowly starts to
• 50:02
  grow, as Bitcoin's price starts to appreciate and kind of people
• 50:04
  start awakening us into like, why does this thing just keep
• 50:07
  going up? Why does this thing just keep
• 50:08
  going up and people start to dig into it and invest time and
• 50:12
  energy trying to understand it. We just leave this the capital
• 50:14
  move from traditional assets into Bitcoin and in doing so
• 50:19
  that removes lose power from those in positions of power
• 50:21
  currently. Because if you are a nation
• 50:23
  state and a large portion of your capital is in Bitcoin as in
• 50:28
  like your populace of storing their capital in Bitcoin, then
• 50:30
  all of a sudden you cannot take capital by force, which is what
• 50:34
  concurrently happened. We can seize capital easily.
• 50:37
  We can seize assets, we can freeze bank accounts, which as
• 50:40
  we've seen is happening in Canada.
• 50:42
  When it comes to Bitcoin, the only viable way to obtain
• 50:44
  Bitcoin is to offer someone value and have them voluntarily
• 50:47
  hand it back over to you or hand that Bitcoin over to you.
• 50:50
  So I think that in an ideal world, I would like to see this
• 50:52
  bridge being built whereby capital slowly starts
• 50:55
  accumulating in Bitcoin, nation states start to lose that power,
• 50:58
  and the only way for them to exist is actually to offer
• 51:00
  value. So it realigns the incentives.
• 51:01
  That's what I hope happens. But the problem that I see right
• 51:05
  now is that as we start to see the cost of living crisis
• 51:09
  because of inflation and because of the breakdown of a current
• 51:11
  monetary system, people have less capacity to think for
• 51:13
  themselves. And if people have less capacity
• 51:15
  to think for themselves, it's way easier for these mass
• 51:19
  formations, these kind of authoritarian, totalitarian
• 51:22
  environments to emerge. There's a book called The
• 51:24
  Psychology of Totalitarianism, but by the professor of Gentry
• 51:28
  University, and it's a fascinating book and it really
• 51:31
  open. It goes into like Mausi Dong, it
• 51:33
  goes into like Stalin. It goes into a whole bunch of
• 51:36
  these totalitarian environments and how they came to be.
• 51:39
  And the first stage is people have to feel a sense of
• 51:42
  loneliness. When people are working a ton
• 51:44
  and they're not able to kind of show up in their communities and
• 51:47
  interact as we've been talking about, they start to feel
• 51:49
  loneliness. The next stage is
• 51:51
  meaninglessness or the same thing.
• 51:53
  We're starting to see people feel that meaninglessness
• 51:55
  because they don't know what their life holds.
• 51:57
  They don't know if they can afford a house, they don't know
• 51:59
  if they can support their children.
• 52:01
  And so we see meaningless arising.
• 52:02
  And then the third stage is this kind of free floating anxiety.
• 52:06
  People just don't quite understand why am I feeling
• 52:09
  these things? Why does life feel so freaking
• 52:11
  hard right now? And so when you have lonely
• 52:13
  meaninglessness and free floating anxiety, people are way
• 52:16
  more susceptible to being told some form of narrative and
• 52:19
  there's some form of an enemy that we need to face.
• 52:22
  And then you get these mass formations, these kind of
• 52:24
  totalitarian environments where mobs kind of form and people,
• 52:28
  they're not thinking rationally. And this has happened throughout
• 52:30
  history countless times. And so the challenge that I see
• 52:33
  right now is that I see us trending towards a more of an
• 52:37
  authoritarian environment. And I'm hoping that through
• 52:40
  social media, we're able to get enough information out there
• 52:43
  that people start to awaken. And I do think that even the
• 52:46
  pandemic on the whole has kind of awakened decent chunk of
• 52:49
  people. Yeah, 100% I, I, I you're not
• 52:54
  going to believe a lot of the things you're I I guess you'd
• 52:57
  question them. Bitcoin is always new from the
• 52:59
  beginning. You're like, no, like, this is a
• 53:01
  scam, but a lot of people, you know, still trusted what the guy
• 53:07
  in the suit on TV had to say. And now the guy in the suit is
• 53:12
  naked figuratively. And you're just like, yeah, just
• 53:15
  I remember that. You know what?
• 53:17
  What's the saying? Like, fool me once, Shane wants
• 53:19
  the same on you, fool me twice, whatever.
• 53:22
  But yeah, I agree. Now, my question to you, and
• 53:24
  this is, I mean, actually like a topic that we're exploring
• 53:26
  today, me and Opti, which is, and I've put a lot of, I've put
• 53:30
  a lot of thought into it. I want to run it by you, which
• 53:32
  is IA lot certain political ideologies and philosophies.
• 53:38
  I I just don't think are compatible with Bitcoin.
• 53:40
  So what I mean by that? So of course we have socialism,
• 53:44
  communism, and which rely on effective wealth redistribution
• 53:50
  mechanisms via the central bank direct taxation, which I think
• 53:55
  is close to maxed out. And then the more sinister one,
• 53:58
  which is equally as necessary is wealth redistribution via
• 54:02
  currency debasement. I I think that if you don't have
• 54:05
  those two mechanisms, you can't like the politicians no longer
• 54:10
  can go and promise free things because they can't take it from
• 54:14
  other people, right? What do you what do you think
• 54:17
  about that? No, I wholeheartedly agree.
• 54:19
  And it what scares me right now in society is a lot of these
• 54:24
  whether we're talking about like the Labour Party, whether we're
• 54:26
  talking about the left, whether we're talking about the
• 54:27
  Democratic Party, these kind of left-leaning more kind of like
• 54:30
  socialist kind of groups, I would say very much are kind of
• 54:36
  sneaking in communism. They're sneaking in these very
• 54:41
  kind of authoritarian approaches to kind of politics into kind of
• 54:45
  the mainstream. And even if you listen to
• 54:47
  Camilla Harris, I saw a little talk by her the other day and
• 54:49
  she was talking about what we need to focus on is equity of
• 54:53
  outcomes. Everyone has the same outcome.
• 54:55
  And it's just like, how is that ever going to work where no
• 54:58
  matter how much energy you put into society, whether you're
• 55:00
  working harder or not, you're going to have the same outcome.
• 55:03
  That is communism. That is communism.
• 55:05
  And it's just, it blows my mind that people are listening to
• 55:08
  this and they're just like, that's what we need.
• 55:10
  And it's just if we look throughout all of like all of
• 55:13
  history, not only you like humanity, but all of history,
• 55:16
  it's just like species are capitalist inherently.
• 55:20
  What do I mean by that? Capitalism is basically just
• 55:23
  competition with those who are able to offer value surviving.
• 55:26
  That's what capitalism is when you go back throughout like
• 55:29
  natural evolution, species are able to offer value and are able
• 55:33
  to use their environment to and use it to productive use better
• 55:37
  than their opponent naturally survive.
• 55:39
  And so when we think about capitalism in society today, we
• 55:42
  don't have so anything close to that.
• 55:43
  We need to be able to allow for competition.
• 55:46
  We need to be able to allow value to rise up, because in the
• 55:49
  end, that's what's going to support humanity.
• 55:51
  If we're constantly intervening and we're trying to create
• 55:54
  equity of outcome, I think that it is breaking down society and
• 55:58
  it's redistributing wealth and it's disincentivizing people to
• 56:01
  add value to society. 100% it's, it's just and it's this mass
• 56:05
  misallocation of capital and that the, you know, the time and
• 56:09
  time again it it's had severe where it's, you know, they'll
• 56:13
  always say like it's never never been tried, but whatever.
• 56:17
  But you see just country after country, regardless of the
• 56:20
  content and the continent, the outcome is roughly the same
• 56:24
  right now. So I would say it's like, is
• 56:29
  this the end for that? Like is does Bitcoin solve that?
• 56:33
  Because like essentially, I think the reason that they've
• 56:36
  been able to redistribute or just basically take from someone
• 56:40
  else to give to someone else is because the they had the tools
• 56:44
  to do so effectively efficiency, unlike kind of like this mass
• 56:47
  scale. Does Bitcoin solve that problem?
• 56:51
  Because all of a sudden it's like you couldn't maybe perhaps
• 56:56
  get away with it via taxation. But again, you can only make tax
• 57:00
  so high before people start to rebel and say what the fuck,
• 57:04
  right? So does that solve the issue?
• 57:08
  Like is that, does that solve the issue of like, do you see in
• 57:12
  the future? Like we don't see any socialist
• 57:16
  governments because we've successfully separated money
• 57:19
  from state. And and one more, one last bit,
• 57:22
  which is actually in the Communist Manifesto, the 5th
• 57:25
  tenant is the necessity for the centralization of credit, the
• 57:29
  necessity for a central bank essentially.
• 57:31
  Absolutely. You know, one thing that kind of
• 57:34
  comes to mind when you're talking is that I think when we
• 57:35
  think about capitalism and socialism and and communism and
• 57:39
  these kind of various ideologies, what we don't think
• 57:42
  about is that you can have something like capitalism exist
• 57:47
  on a grand scale across like a nation state, but on a micro
• 57:50
  scale still have kind of more of a socialist belief, which is,
• 57:54
  hey, I want to contribute to society and want to give back.
• 57:56
  And that's where me as an individual, I believe that on a
• 57:59
  nation state level, we should have all of these various
• 58:01
  jurisdictions competing with one another because when you have
• 58:04
  competition, you're levelling up the value that that nation state
• 58:07
  is offering. But on a personal level, I want
• 58:10
  to like, I'm more than happy to support my partner.
• 58:13
  I'm more than happy to support when I have kids.
• 58:15
  I'm more than happy to give back to the society.
• 58:17
  I help with nonprofit organizations and get kids off
• 58:20
  the street. That's a very kind of more
• 58:22
  socialist agenda. But in the grand scheme of
• 58:24
  things, I think that society functions when you have these
• 58:28
  communities that are tight knit and they're willing to give back
• 58:30
  to one another, but you have competition on a grander.
• 58:33
  And so I don't think it's necessary black and white that
• 58:34
  you only have capitalism, you only have socialism, or you only
• 58:37
  have this and you only have that.
• 58:38
  I think that like Stephen back and going to the start of your
• 58:44
  quick, that Bitcoin breaks down our current interventionistic
• 58:48
  practices on a high level, on a nation state level and on a even
• 58:52
  on a municipal level, because it forces a free market.
• 58:56
  And I think that ultimately, when people have control over
• 58:58
  their money and that money cannot easily be seized and all
• 59:02
  of a sudden the only way to be able to obtain capital is to
• 59:05
  offer value. And so by forcing a free market,
• 59:08
  I think society thrives. And what's interesting, and this
• 59:11
  is something that's kind of really been playing in my mind,
• 59:13
  is that when we think about kind of the left and they're trying
• 59:16
  to really just support everyone and the handouts here, handouts
• 59:18
  there, what they're not thinking about is the long term.
• 59:22
  It's like security and health of humanity.
• 59:26
  Because if we're just constantly trying to support everyone at
• 59:28
  the expense of those offering value, you're degrading society
• 59:31
  so much so that you're actually impacting it's chance of
• 59:34
  survival. Whereas I think when you think
• 59:35
  about a free market environment, the inverse is true where if
• 59:39
  those are not able to offer value to society, and this is
• 59:43
  controversial and it's challenging.
• 59:44
  I'm not saying this is my belief, but I don't, I don't
• 59:46
  quite know how to formulate this yet is that those that are not
• 59:50
  able to offer value to society versus those that are, well,
• 59:53
  those that are able to offer value to society are able to
• 59:56
  accumulate wealth where they're able to create more products,
• 59:59
  innovate, increase efficiency. So much so that hopefully in
• 1:00:02
  time that trickles down and ends up impacting those that aren't
• 1:00:04
  offering as much value to society.
• 1:00:06
  But that's not wealth redistribution.
• 1:00:08
  That's instead it's realigning the incentives towards capital
• 1:00:10
  flowing towards value where value is being created.
• 1:00:12
  And I tend to be of the opinion that.
• 1:00:16
  We need to support humanity and think about humanity's longevity
• 1:00:19
  as opposed to just trying to support everyone right now
• 1:00:21
  because it's degrading society, it's degrading culture, it's
• 1:00:23
  degrading how we're showing up. 100% and I, I think that way of
• 1:00:27
  thinking isn't possible with Fiat.
• 1:00:30
  Like I, I think with Fiat it's been Co opted time and time
• 1:00:33
  again. And I think with Bitcoin, it's
• 1:00:36
  what you said it, it's like you're, you're forcing the free
• 1:00:40
  market onto it and then now you don't have a choice.
• 1:00:43
  It's like sink or swim essentially.
• 1:00:46
  And at the end of the day, like, you know, like when you have the
• 1:00:51
  incentive to produce and to make things like, you know, I, I, I'm
• 1:00:55
  really excited for that chapter in human history.
• 1:00:58
  Like I'm really looking forward to that because I think the
• 1:01:01
  innovation is going to be off to the entrepreneurship, the
• 1:01:04
  innovation, all that stuff is going to be off the charts.
• 1:01:06
  Yeah. It's you know what one thing
• 1:01:09
  which is made a kind of a, it's really made me think is when I
• 1:01:13
  came to kind of this idea, Well, it's not my idea.
• 1:01:15
  It's kind of I've heard it throughout the Bitcoin
• 1:01:16
  community. But when it really I started to
• 1:01:18
  think about this idea that Bitcoin is kind of the first non
• 1:01:21
  jurisdictional asset. And what I mean by that, every
• 1:01:24
  other asset in history has either been physical or it's
• 1:01:28
  been kind of intangible, but it's been held by a third party.
• 1:01:30
  So see, the physical nature is held by jurisdiction.
• 1:01:33
  We have real estate, we have gold, we have precious metals,
• 1:01:36
  we, you name it. These are physical nature, which
• 1:01:38
  means they're easily able to be seized by the government or
• 1:01:41
  they're intangible. We have cash in the bank, we
• 1:01:44
  have stocks, we have bonds, we have all of these derivatives,
• 1:01:47
  but they're held by third parties, which means if the
• 1:01:49
  government wants to clamp down on that third party and freeze
• 1:01:52
  your assets, they can do so. So up until now, all of our
• 1:01:55
  assets have been kind of jurisdictionally bound, which
• 1:01:58
  has meant that we're kind of under the thumb of the
• 1:01:59
  government. If the government doesn't want
• 1:02:01
  us to move some assets, we cannot move those assets.
• 1:02:03
  Whereas with Bitcoin you can, you've got this non
• 1:02:06
  jurisdictional asset, which is kind of ephemeral.
• 1:02:08
  It just so kind of exists and you can hold 12 words in your
• 1:02:12
  head and walk across a border, start naked and no one has any
• 1:02:15
  idea that you're holding all of your value in your head.
• 1:02:17
  So what that means is you're forcing a free market again,
• 1:02:19
  you're allowing capital to flow to the nations that are offering
• 1:02:22
  value. So if you start to see capital
• 1:02:24
  leaving Canada or leaving the US because they no longer offer a
• 1:02:29
  nice place to live that supports their populace, well then all of
• 1:02:32
  a sudden what ends up having to happen is that nation state can
• 1:02:35
  either continue down its path and see capital move away.
• 1:02:38
  And eventually they're going to kind of falter.
• 1:02:40
  They're going to break down and wither away.
• 1:02:41
  Or they can decide to pivot and say, OK, you know what, we're
• 1:02:44
  losing. We're losing people.
• 1:02:46
  We're losing like quality members of society that are
• 1:02:48
  offering value. What do we have to do to keep
• 1:02:50
  them? You know what, maybe we have to
• 1:02:51
  cut tax rates. Maybe we have to be conscious of
• 1:02:53
  spending. Maybe we have to make a more
• 1:02:55
  desirable place to live. And so ultimately, I think when
• 1:02:57
  you have capital, when you allow capital to flow freely
• 1:03:00
  throughout society and throughout our globe, you end up
• 1:03:03
  forcing that free market whereby value rises to the top and you
• 1:03:07
  force competition. 100% and, and now you have nation states
• 1:03:10
  competing for citizens essentially.
• 1:03:14
  And then in that type of environment, the individual
• 1:03:16
  wins, right? And that's like, and yeah, it's
• 1:03:19
  we're going full circle, sovereign individual.
• 1:03:21
  I love it. Anyways, we are getting to the
• 1:03:25
  top of the hour and I do want to be respectful of your of your
• 1:03:27
  time. Seb.
• 1:03:28
  I really enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:03:30
  Where can people find your book if they want to buy a copy?
• 1:03:33
  So you can just find it just on Amazon, if you're kind of use
• 1:03:35
  Amazon, you can also jump on, if you're a Bitcoiner, there is a
• 1:03:40
  new kind of website called Fusats and you can basically
• 1:03:44
  upload books, You can upload any digital documents and people can
• 1:03:47
  purchase the book in Bitcoin, which is freaking rad.
• 1:03:50
  And so the guy Geordie, who founded that just reached out to
• 1:03:52
  me and asked if I wanted to upload the book.
• 1:03:53
  So it's on Fusats. And then on top of that, you can
• 1:03:57
  also just check out booking glass education, which also has
• 1:03:59
  beers for Bitcoin are the book that I wrote of Daz and and the
• 1:04:03
  hidden cost of money. But yeah, I just Nico, I hugely
• 1:04:06
  appreciate you having me on. And it's I've always appreciated
• 1:04:08
  kind of your work and we briefly talked about it before we kind
• 1:04:11
  of jumped on, but you, Preston, Ben, Ben Sessions and myself
• 1:04:15
  kind of grabbed lunch and it was absolute highlight of this
• 1:04:18
  month. Yeah, it was, it was, it was
• 1:04:21
  great, man. And the just, you know, just the
• 1:04:24
  conversation, just, you know, Preston Ben yourself like it's,
• 1:04:28
  it's a good, it's a it's a good mix, man.
• 1:04:30
  It's a good mix to to make good conversations.
• 1:04:32
  So yeah, I really enjoyed that that lunch and hopefully we we
• 1:04:36
  cross paths and meet space again very soon.
• 1:04:40
  Anyways, guys, that was another episode of simply Bitcoin arrow.
• 1:04:43
  If you guys enjoyed the show, you need to do smash like
• 1:04:44
  button. Consider subscribing if you feel
• 1:04:46
  like we provided you value and I'll see you back tomorrow for
• 1:04:49
  the live show at 12:15 PM Eastern Standard Time.
• 1:04:52
  And yeah, this is my guest for today sub money.
• 1:04:55
  I'll see you guys on the next one.
• 1:04:57
  Peace out. Thanks.
• 1:04:59
  Episode was brought to you by bitcoinwell.com on a mission to
• 1:05:03
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