Latest / Conversations with Cumberland Heights / Recovery Coaching for Men in Addiction Recovery | Sean Harrell & Dr. Nick Hayes | Episode 46

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Recovery Coaching for Men in Addiction Recovery | Sean Harrell & Dr. Nick Hayes | Episode 46 · Conversations with Cumberland Heights

0:00
Sean Harrell.
0:01
Sir. Welcome to the show.
0:04
So glad you're here.
0:05
Thanks for spending time.
0:06
We were catching up a little bit.
0:07
So I want to kind of recap some of that.
0:09
But introduce yourself.
0:11
Tell people who you are and what you do.
0:15
Oh, I'm glad to be here.
0:17
My name's Sean. Harrell.
0:19
I, I've been I originally started
0:23
with Cumberland
0:24
Heights in 2004, and the first program
0:28
I worked
0:28
in the treatment of addictions
0:30
since 1994.
0:33
I came to the dance.
0:34
My formal education
0:35
is in psychiatric nursing.
0:37
I started out in Southern California
0:40
and,
0:42
hit a terrible bottom
0:43
and moved to the south,
0:44
convinced that they weren't
0:45
drinking or drugging in the South.
0:47
After umpteen treatment centers out west
0:49
and I found that
0:50
they had been having a party
0:52
and, health and I hit bottom
0:55
outside of Birmingham, Alabama,
0:57
got sober, spent about a year,
0:59
and came here,
1:02
spent some
1:02
time sober, learning to be sober.
1:05
I not good for years
1:07
before I return to working
1:09
in treatment again.
1:10
That was crucial for me and
1:14
started here, in the First Step program
1:17
and have just taken on
1:19
so many different roles
1:21
over the years and left at one point.
1:23
And then some other things,
1:24
started a facility and revamped stuff
1:27
and did some business development.
1:29
And always been a big fan
1:32
of Still Waters Day one.
1:34
Jeff Browning and Jason would come out
1:37
and we would
1:37
get into these conversations about
1:40
the fire.
1:42
They were doing something down there.
1:44
They were delivering
1:47
the 12 steps.
1:48
And I used to go,
1:50
you know,
1:50
an hour would pass,
1:51
and we came from the FLC.
1:54
And in 2000,
1:58
19, I was diagnosed with a
2:00
rare neurological disease,
2:04
general neuralgia, nicknamed
2:06
the suicide illness.
2:08
Can't make this up.
2:09
And,
2:12
and I took some time off
2:14
from working and,
2:16
and I was.
2:19
Just focusing on getting,
2:21
well, doctors all over.
2:24
And I said a prayer one day, I said, God,
2:27
I'm better.
2:28
I'm ready to work
2:31
with your wounded kids again.
2:33
True story.
2:34
I went home, took, like, a 20 minute nap.
2:37
If Chitwood calls me,
2:38
Heath and I have this long history
2:42
stream, and, waxes and wanes of him,
2:46
and he says, hey, I got this physician.
2:48
Would you be interested
2:50
in interviewing for it?
2:52
And I said,
2:54
you know, man,
2:55
literally 45 minutes ago,
2:57
I said this prayer.
2:58
Absolutely.
3:00
And, and I interviewed for him,
3:03
and he asked me
3:03
if I'd be willing to come on board
3:05
and be the still waters recovery coach.
3:09
And in a really cool way,
3:13
it kind of picks off where I left
3:16
Cumberland Heights in 2015,
3:19
five years later, because
3:22
Dale and I were involved in developing
3:26
the first version of
3:28
we were involved with.
3:29
Buying the software,
3:32
a coaching attachment to him trying to
3:35
like somehow get Dan
3:36
we didn't even know what questions
3:37
we would ask.
3:39
I left and I got picked up
3:41
right there
3:42
with just the coaching component.
3:45
And I jumped on it
3:46
and that was, it's
3:47
been about five years now.
3:49
Five years.
3:50
I didn't realize
3:50
it had been that much time to,
3:53
I am
3:55
I still of recovery coach.
3:58
And when the bubble pops
4:00
and everyone gets an A-plus in treatment,
4:02
you know, and I know that
4:04
I'm where we bridge that gap.
4:08
Where the real recovery starts to happen.
4:11
We won all those principles,
4:12
all those things that guys learn
4:15
at Cumberland,
4:16
to get in the car with them.
4:18
And we hope that they go home
4:20
with that margin. So the living
4:23
now that that sounds ideal.
4:26
What what coaching that you do
4:29
and we've we've changed it
4:30
to extended care management.
4:32
That's it's
4:34
and it better describes
4:35
what it is we're doing.
4:37
What it does is it allows me
4:40
to actually literally only coach.
4:43
I get to tell parents
4:45
you're going to do Al-Anon.
4:47
Don't come in my dugout.
4:49
I fire parents, they want
4:51
you're off the team.
4:53
You don't get to ask.
4:54
It's a great analogy, actually.
4:56
Well, it is,
4:56
because if you've been
4:57
a little league parent,
4:58
you know exactly
4:59
what you're talking about.
5:00
I used to,
5:01
because I was like, I'll never be.
5:02
And I was like, I'm
5:03
finding myself wanting to get involved
5:06
and I don't.
5:06
I just need to be on the sidelines.
5:08
So I love that.
5:08
Keep going. Yeah, I love that.
5:10
It's a perfect analogy.
5:11
Of so you know, on day one,
5:15
you know, all the parents love it.
5:18
I tell them.
5:19
It sounds like good plan. Yeah.
5:20
They won
5:21
my parents,
5:22
they say you're officially off the team.
5:25
If you're the parent
5:26
that's going to get your child
5:28
or your husband sober,
5:30
show me how
5:31
well marketed
5:32
and we'll make millions of dollars.
5:34
Sure, but you're not going to be the one.
5:36
Sure.
5:37
So I just need you to be mom or wife
5:40
at this point.
5:41
And I'm going to give you an assignment.
5:43
The other 6000 on this right.
5:46
Get him where you fit it.
5:48
That's your job. You can ask me.
5:50
They're going to be things
5:51
to talking to their sponsor.
5:53
You want to ask him.
5:55
If he's talking to a sponsor
5:58
you're not allowed to ask him
6:00
if he's going to meetings.
6:02
You're fired.
6:03
But why Sean aren't
6:05
those the things
6:05
that he's supposed to be doing.
6:06
Why why shouldn't
6:07
I be able to ask my loved one
6:08
those questions.
6:10
Great questions.
6:14
Because they need to keep
6:15
the focus on themselves.
6:17
You know,
6:18
you and I are familiar with, you know,
6:22
there's all this empirical, evidence
6:25
that suggests that families
6:27
do their own work.
6:29
The chances of the recovering person
6:32
getting better grow exponentially.
6:35
I think there's a study called cracked.
6:37
You may be familiar with them
6:39
when they
6:39
really get into the family members
6:43
addressing what's going on with them.
6:44
Yeah.
6:45
So the why, you know, to that is
6:49
I need them to focus on
6:50
putting the oxygen mask on themselves.
6:52
Right, right.
6:54
And so I'm working with families
6:55
the whole time I'm working with guys
6:57
and with guys, I find that once I
7:01
take that pressure off from mom and dad,
7:05
the guys just kind of fall in lockstep.
7:07
Now what Still Waters
7:09
really has going for it.
7:11
And I just love it.
7:12
Cumberland Heights as a whole,
7:14
the alumni rock's never.
7:16
I mean,
7:18
the only thing I would liken it to
7:19
is maybe Betty Ford.
7:21
Like,
7:24
the alumni here rocks.
7:26
But the brother still waters.
7:29
I mean, it is a breathing,
7:31
living organism.
7:33
My guys get out of Still Waters
7:38
They're being introduced
7:39
to these guys on Sunday night.
7:42
Local break.
7:45
Anybody center?
7:46
Sure. 12 step. Community. Yeah, yeah.
7:48
You know, and they're there,
7:50
and they got this on, like,
7:52
did you work with Taylor?
7:54
But what doesn't that bond
7:55
everywhere, Sean?
7:56
Like,
7:56
why do you think what's different about
7:58
Still Waters
7:59
is like from a treatment
8:00
model perspective than maybe otherwise
8:03
we would just refer to
8:04
as traditional rehab.
8:06
What's is a different.
8:11
Yes.
8:12
Yeah.
8:13
I know, it's like, you know, here's why
8:17
I'm still waters
8:18
was not call itself treatment right.
8:22
So waters is a 12 step immersion.
8:26
Back in 2011 I did my first tour.
8:29
I would still waters and I visited him.
8:32
He was out there.
8:33
I thought it would be really
8:34
cool to say so. He,
8:38
What do you want these rights?
8:41
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
8:43
And he looked at me just,
8:45
you know how intense he can be
8:46
when you say, yeah,
8:49
I want every man to leave this place
8:51
with the relationship
8:54
with the God of his understanding.
8:56
Yeah.
8:56
And it was a mic drop, and I was like,
9:01
that's what this is.
9:02
Yeah.
9:03
And so
9:05
I think Stillwater spends a lot of time
9:08
asking, having the mask.
9:10
Are you your brother's keeper? Yeah.
9:13
Are you willing to do for him?
9:15
You know,
9:15
the great paradox of recovery is
9:19
it's in seeking you know,
9:22
that I actually ultimately find freedom.
9:25
You know, Saint Francis talked about it.
9:29
That's that's what you're teaching them?
9:31
Yeah.
9:32
I think too, like,
9:33
for somebody that might be curious
9:35
about the topic and, like,
9:36
trying to understand,
9:39
like what Sean is talking
9:40
about in terms of a 12 step immersion
9:42
program, I've started referring to it
9:43
as 12 step living
9:46
because that's really like
9:47
so the program is not,
9:51
licensed in the same way
9:52
that a traditional inpatient
9:54
residential program is licensed.
9:56
And so and it's a, you know.
10:00
The facility is focused
10:01
on teaching people
10:02
how to live in 12 step recovery.
10:05
So what does that mean?
10:05
So in the morning they wake up and they,
10:08
you know, they
10:08
they have jobs to do in the sense
10:10
of like sort of think about it as chores.
10:12
But they're starting with a meditation,
10:14
right?
10:14
They're starting with literature,
10:15
12 step literature,
10:17
and then they transition
10:18
pretty quickly to like a group.
10:19
And it's like a beefy group
10:20
and it's peer led
10:22
and they're going through a, specific,
10:26
12 step program, step working guide,
10:29
and they're presenting that.
10:30
So they are learning,
10:32
like when people talk about like what
10:33
a 12 step program is like a 12 step
10:35
program is.
10:36
So you taught me, by the way,
10:37
I've known Sean a long time.
10:38
Known Sean
10:39
as long as I've been in recovery.
10:42
12 Step Programs is about working
10:45
the steps.
10:46
It's about practicing
10:47
the spiritual principles within steps.
10:48
So Still Water's
10:49
what I love about it
10:50
is they're really the
10:51
they're like,
10:52
if you get a little introduction
10:54
and you get a treatment plan
10:55
in traditional care and a continuing
10:57
care plan and like, really it's best
10:59
as a stable,
11:00
as a stabilizing force so that you can,
11:02
you know, continue to engage
11:04
in some sort of support after care.
11:06
I mean, that's the design.
11:08
But Still Water's
11:08
is what we offer
11:10
for people, for them to really learn
11:13
how to be genuine, honest,
11:16
open, vulnerable.
11:18
That's what you're talking about,
11:18
being my brother's keeper.
11:20
And it's different.
11:21
Yeah.
11:22
It's different.
11:23
There's a magic.
11:24
And that's not to take away
11:26
because I've
11:27
seen people come in here
11:30
and do 30 days at Cumberland Heights,
11:31
and I know that I've been sober for.
11:33
Sure, no doubt for 30 years, no doubt.
11:36
I know people that justifiably,
11:38
you know, people's needs are different.
11:41
So, so I think
11:44
ultimately the higher power knows
11:46
exactly what I heard.
11:47
This is God's economy.
11:49
I've learned that, right.
11:51
People wind up exactly
11:52
where they're supposed to be
11:53
to hear the message where they need,
11:58
Sean, why do you think it's so hard
12:01
for us,
12:04
our kind people.
12:09
To get clean, to get sober.
12:17
I think other than
12:18
our denial systems being so intact
12:21
that even the idea about entertaining
12:24
the idea,
12:26
there could be something.
12:27
Sure scares that.
12:30
Yeah.
12:31
And I will do everything in my power
12:34
to avoid
12:36
real or imagined pain.
12:38
I think
12:40
that's that big hurdle, you know?
12:43
The truth is, we find out later
12:46
that fear is a mile high in paper thin.
12:49
And, you know, everybody has this moment
12:53
where you go and, you know, we walk,
12:58
over a mouse hurts right?
13:00
Because I, you and I have seen addicts
13:02
take on big
13:04
issues, death
13:06
and loss in their community.
13:08
And they rally,
13:10
but you give them
13:13
a difficult job interview.
13:16
Flat tire. Yeah.
13:17
You know, I love that question.
13:19
In the step working
13:20
guide that talks about youth,
13:23
I'm not going to be able to
13:25
quote it exactly.
13:26
So nobody come at me
13:27
in the comments of this later.
13:28
But,
13:29
essentially the sentiment
13:32
of the question,
13:33
I believe it's in the first step,
13:35
you know, do I fall apart
13:36
the moment things don't go?
13:37
Go according to plan?
13:39
Yeah, that's
13:39
kind of the paraphrase I want.
13:41
So it's interests are 69 questions
13:42
in the first half.
13:43
And I've never forgotten
13:44
that one in particular.
13:45
You know I wonder why that is, Sean, not
13:46
to get into my step work today, but like.
13:52
It's interesting what
13:52
we choose to hold on to
13:56
and
13:58
the tools that we come in here with
14:00
and the ones that we don't,
14:01
and how we're challenged to really change
14:04
something else
14:04
that's interesting to me
14:05
is like recovery tends
14:06
to really not be at all
14:07
anything about alcohol or drugs.
14:10
And, you know, that's kind of a misnomer.
14:13
I assumed,
14:15
you know, in my own experience
14:16
that it was just going
14:16
to be really learning, like,
14:18
because that's
14:18
that's what it seems like logically.
14:20
Oh, they're going to teach me the tools
14:23
to not drink or use drugs.
14:26
That makes logical sense.
14:28
And that's not what happened to me.
14:30
Right?
14:30
You know, I come here thinking I'm.
14:33
So if I just remove the drugs
14:35
from my life,
14:37
problem solved.
14:38
I go back to life.
14:40
And what I find out is
14:43
these tools are actually going
14:44
to be the thing
14:46
that, like, the path
14:47
for me to have a life
14:49
for the rest of my life
14:50
one day at a time.
14:52
I mean, I get to see you.
14:54
I'm not to flatter you, but genuinely.
14:57
You were one of the first groups,
15:00
with me and I were over here,
15:02
you know, when it was the AMG,
15:05
you know, yo downs
15:07
and all these guys were coming up and,
15:09
you know, and,
15:10
you know, he was talking about this
15:12
Texas Tech thing. Yeah.
15:15
All of y'all kind of.
15:18
You were trailblazers, right?
15:21
Went up there
15:22
and I don't think you expected
15:23
any of that to happen.
15:25
I remember sitting at my.
15:29
This,
15:30
you know, story of how you got here.
15:33
You know,
15:34
this thing doesn't care about them.
15:35
Yeah. No doubt.
15:37
And so yeah you know we wind up getting a
15:40
you know they say
15:40
expect a life beyond your wildest dreams.
15:44
You know
15:44
my wildest dreams were pretty damn wild.
15:48
This thing gave me a life.
15:50
You know funny story.
15:53
When I got sober,
15:55
all I wanted,
15:58
all I wanted was my first life back.
16:01
That's during the seventh grade, right?
16:04
We were playing Oregon Trail right?
16:07
And deep cut.
16:08
Yeah, yeah.
16:10
And,
16:13
And I remember
16:13
I was outside of this clubhouse
16:15
in Birmingham, Alabama, and I,
16:18
said, man,
16:19
I just want my father this whole time.
16:21
I just want my wife back home.
16:24
I need Percy, you know,
16:26
you know, some of southern man
16:28
have high pitched voice. Yeah.
16:30
He looked at me and he said, Sean,
16:33
what the
16:34
hell do you want with a wife?
16:38
You can have my.
16:41
And you know, brother,
16:43
I didn't get my wife.
16:45
Instead,
16:48
this most remarkable thing happened.
16:50
That woman,
16:51
through the steps in the work,
16:54
became a sister.
16:56
And her and I got to co-parent.
16:59
And on any holiday,
17:01
my children were raised by having,
17:03
you know, two sets of parents.
17:06
That's recovery stuff.
17:09
You got to see my kid when he was
17:12
literally.
17:12
Now he's about to graduate
17:14
from college in six weeks.
17:18
No one is teaching medical students
17:21
in Charlotte.
17:22
How does this happen?
17:23
I'm not surprised by that one bit.
17:25
I just wanted my wife back. Right.
17:28
And the 12 steps
17:30
were that thing, that kind of that path.
17:32
I was told, if you work these steps,
17:34
they'll take you anywhere you want to go.
17:38
But I won't
17:38
negate this.
17:42
That there are other paths.
17:44
And I used to be so stringent about.
17:47
This is the only way,
17:48
and I just can't do it.
17:49
I made too many damn funerals.
17:51
I've had to make that call
17:54
where I've had a guy.
17:55
Nick, and he's a client
17:58
and he's got two beautiful daughters,
18:00
and I'm pulling them in, pours
18:03
out of hospitals and overdose
18:06
and they call spin.
18:07
You know, a man.
18:09
You got to make it
18:11
to see these beautiful children graduate.
18:13
And walking down the aisle,
18:16
maybe Suboxone maintenance.
18:17
We're going to talk to Doctor Woods.
18:19
We're going to get you a team that works.
18:20
Now that same guy years later
18:23
is now getting ready
18:24
to get married and owns a home.
18:26
And his children live with, you know.
18:30
So I can
18:32
I can let my ideas get in the way.
18:34
And what's the best pathway for someone.
18:37
Or yourself. That's.
18:39
Yeah.
18:40
One of the guys Sean
18:43
I just think about
18:43
like what
18:44
your day to day is
18:45
and you know
18:46
you have your caseload and you're,
18:48
you're staying connected with many many,
18:51
many alumnus of Still Water's
18:54
and building relationships
18:56
with active residents.
18:58
And I wonder
19:01
like remind me,
19:02
what are they talking about
19:05
in that first year?
19:06
Like,
19:07
what are the things that they're bringing
19:08
to you?
19:09
You know what I mean?
19:10
Like, what's the stuff?
19:12
Because I it's changed, right?
19:14
No, brother, it's still the good stuff.
19:16
What is it?
19:18
So.
19:21
Day one, the bubble pops
19:23
and they all come and they adjust.
19:26
And life is great, right? Right.
19:28
The sky is blue,
19:29
the green and the grass is green.
19:31
And then you start to talk about her
19:37
right?
19:38
I sees her
19:39
across a dimly lit anonymous room.
19:42
Right.
19:42
And he doesn't want to talk about it.
19:44
And, you know,
19:46
and I really make it
19:47
a point to tell them, hey, man,
19:49
you know, let's roll the titles away.
19:50
That's why I love,
19:52
you know, peer recovery.
19:54
I carried a license for a long time.
19:56
This thing is fun.
19:57
We're friends in recovery
19:59
who talk regularly about the things
20:00
we do to stay sober.
20:01
And no doubt, Sean,
20:05
I think I want to ask her on Wednesday.
20:08
By the way, we are not poking fun.
20:10
I just want to make sure
20:10
everybody's clear.
20:11
This is all identification driven.
20:13
This is all in our own experience.
20:15
Continue. Absolutely.
20:17
So there are those conversations.
20:19
How do we interact with members
20:20
of the opposite sex.
20:22
For real or you know what. Or
20:25
however someone identifies.
20:27
Sure.
20:28
We're navigating that people have these
20:30
that those, these needs.
20:32
And they're the same as
20:34
anybody else's needs.
20:37
The conversations are funny.
20:41
You all want to make money, right?
20:43
They're all not all of us.
20:45
A lot of them are so fixated
20:47
that they've lost all this time. Right?
20:49
Result of their addiction.
20:51
They've got to get back to it.
20:52
And they're behind all their peers,
20:55
and they need to make it $35 an hour
20:58
right now.
20:58
And I'm like, I now the other thing is,
21:01
is they've missed out on their education.
21:05
I've had the proverbial guy
21:06
wake up 52 years old
21:08
and look at me over sushi and go, Sean!
21:15
There's a lot of shame attached to that.
21:17
Yes, I was just thinking of that word.
21:19
A lot of it.
21:20
And there's something about sushi
21:23
and a Coke that, you know, and two guys
21:26
being honest with each other
21:28
that they could be an awkward
21:31
right.
21:31
And God shows up
21:32
every single time, whatever you call it.
21:36
And the next thing I know, I say, well,
21:38
you know, let's look at this school.
21:40
And on Wednesday,
21:42
we're touring the campus.
21:45
Yeah.
21:46
So, yeah, it's it's the same stuff,
21:48
I think. So that answer your question.
21:51
Yeah.
21:51
I mean,
21:53
it also just reminds me about, like
21:57
I told you before we started, like,
21:58
I'll celebrate
22:00
if I make it,
22:01
you know, 16 years next month.
22:09
And there are certainly
22:11
main ideas in my recovery
22:13
that have stayed consistent.
22:15
One of them for me
22:15
is living in the moment,
22:17
you know, which is something you know,
22:20
that I've always
22:22
I've always really connected
22:23
with the just for today
22:24
chapter and one specific book and
22:28
I've always really struggled
22:29
with kind of,
22:30
you know, reflecting on the past
22:31
and projecting in the future.
22:32
And so it's interesting to me
22:35
to whether it's a
22:37
family member,
22:37
a friend, or a new friend in recovery
22:41
that's getting clean and sober
22:42
and hearing
22:43
about what
22:43
they're struggling with and thinking,
22:46
buckle up, you know, because it's not
22:49
we will all
22:50
I think that
22:51
I have continued to negotiate,
22:54
whether it's a defect
22:56
that's being worked on on my behalf,
22:58
shout out to my higher power or.
23:03
Just the staff, man.
23:04
I'm a human being that we all carry.
23:06
And there's these main ideas
23:08
that I think that many of us
23:09
struggle with.
23:11
You know,
23:12
and we have to learn
23:13
how to grow with them, you know?
23:16
And so I love hearing the stories
23:19
of the guys of the girls or whomever
23:23
and that they're still struggling
23:25
with what? We're struggling with.
23:27
This what I. Love, you know.
23:28
I do, I do because you and I both know
23:32
I can be somewhere
23:33
in that anonymous spaces.
23:36
And, you know,
23:36
we can go on about all my years.
23:39
Yeah.
23:40
And the guy
23:41
every three days drops something like.
23:44
Yeah, just super vulnerable and like.
23:46
Yeah,
23:48
honestly.
23:49
Yeah.
23:49
It's like, it's really tricky Sean.
23:52
Sometimes to to to not talk about just
23:57
what happened
23:58
your first year of recovery,
24:01
you know what I mean?
24:01
And really grounded in
24:04
how, how are you trying to practice
24:05
the first step today
24:08
with your relationship
24:09
with your wife or your kids or your job
24:11
or yourself?
24:13
Yeah. Mean like for real? For real.
24:15
I find myself
24:16
having to pull myself out of,
24:18
like, a performative share.
24:20
Not that, but like, you know, really,
24:22
you know, go to meeting.
24:23
I went to a meeting every day
24:25
for the first two years of America,
24:26
like, all that kind of thing,
24:28
and just really
24:29
that's what you reminded me
24:30
of is the guy that's in there
24:31
that's just like, hey, I can't stop.
24:35
And you feel it.
24:37
You feel it.
24:37
And he's not worried
24:38
about being embarrassed.
24:39
He's he is he is trying.
24:42
She he whomever are trying to
24:46
get what they need to survive
24:48
in that moment.
24:51
You know, and I'm like,
24:52
I got to make sure
24:53
that I don't forget to stop by Publix
24:56
and get whatever grocery item
24:57
that has been assigned to me to pick up,
24:59
you know what I'm saying?
25:00
And it's just interesting.
25:03
Okay.
25:04
Doctor Hayes,
25:06
you nailed
25:09
that.
25:10
That's the idea. Yeah.
25:12
I've had guys call me and say,
25:15
Sean, I've been avoiding your phone call,
25:17
but I've used,
25:20
And they really.
25:21
People. People tell you. What?
25:23
Yeah, 100%.
25:25
Yeah, I love them.
25:26
What do you say when they say that
25:28
I love you?
25:29
I love you.
25:32
Let's do something about it.
25:33
You want some help?
25:35
You're like, yeah, I'll go.
25:37
Let me make a phone call.
25:38
I'm on my way
25:38
over to the sober living and.
25:41
And you know where we're at
25:43
in an hour
25:44
if we can pull it off
25:45
for for directed, met
25:47
and, like, really detox
25:50
right over there.
25:52
That's that's a
25:52
one of the beauties I have
25:54
is that I'm connected to the mothership.
25:57
Right. Yeah. Right.
25:58
No doubt
25:59
this proverbial umbilical cord
26:01
that connects B to c, h
26:03
at any given time.
26:04
And there's
26:04
a lot of resources that I have a lot of
26:08
my cohorts,
26:09
other coaches in the community
26:10
don't have,
26:12
Yeah.
26:12
Relationships, experience,
26:14
institutional knowledge,
26:15
all those things. Yeah.
26:16
The other thing I've had is
26:17
I've had guys, look, these are adult men.
26:20
And they'll say, Sean,
26:21
I don't want to stop drinking.
26:23
And I'll go, okay,
26:25
well, let's have lunch
26:28
and I'll go, yeah, we'll have lunch.
26:30
And I'm with the 42 year old man,
26:32
and he's sitting there, you know,
26:34
I'm gonna order a margarita and I'll go.
26:35
Why?
26:36
I'm not paying for it.
26:37
Sure,
26:39
but do you know who that guy
26:40
calls at 3:00 in the morning, right?
26:43
Six weeks later,
26:44
when he's ready to go back.
26:47
Mean.
26:48
And that guy is around today.
26:51
So, you know,
26:52
people often ask,
26:53
what's the difference
26:54
between coach and sponsor and therapist?
26:58
What is the difference?
26:59
It's a good question.
27:00
You know,
27:01
I would say,
27:02
first of all, sponsors
27:03
have a personal investment, their sponsor
27:05
doing it so they can no doubt.
27:08
Right.
27:09
And they're
27:09
they're
27:10
they're having pretty
27:11
much full disclosure. Almost. Right.
27:13
I have a professional investment.
27:15
Right.
27:16
Just like the therapist
27:17
has a professional investment.
27:19
Eye boundaries are more in place.
27:22
I got two phones neck.
27:25
Sure.
27:25
The homies have it.
27:26
Have my personal phone.
27:28
Anything related to c,
27:29
h a is a c h, right.
27:31
The therapist is focusing on
27:35
any type of psychological needs.
27:37
Underlying trauma.
27:39
You know,
27:40
they're focusing on some real deep
27:42
seated stuff.
27:43
As a coach,
27:44
I'm here to set goals and let's
27:46
normalize feelings. Right?
27:49
I can normalize feelings.
27:52
You know.
27:54
Underrated skill for real.
27:57
Like, dude, I'm sorry
27:58
you're feeling that way, you know?
28:00
And having
28:01
for the first time
28:02
ever outside of Still Water's
28:05
touch me, hold me.
28:06
Feel like all the feels right.
28:08
Just an exposed out into the world.
28:11
That's what I remember
28:12
about leaving Still Waters
28:13
as an alumnus is being overwhelmed
28:16
by a tidal wave of the sights,
28:18
sounds and smells.
28:20
Oh yeah. You know what I'm saying?
28:22
Yeah, because I did it 16 times.
28:25
Like said.
28:26
Just just
28:28
feeling like,
28:29
man, we just went through all this
28:30
step work.
28:31
I wrote a spy,
28:32
you know, like,
28:32
really doing it for the first time
28:34
and then leaving and being like,
28:36
oh my gosh,
28:38
I need to go straight to a meeting,
28:40
which I did, you know, and.
28:42
It's that insane
28:44
that you actually bridge that.
28:46
Yeah, that.
28:49
What was going on with you?
28:52
You left
28:52
and did go to a meeting
28:54
because that's not always the case.
28:56
I think what was going on was, well,
28:59
I mean, I mean, you know,
29:01
at the time for I'm just one example
29:03
of recovery, you know,
29:06
I was a college dropout.
29:08
You remember, I was 20 years old.
29:10
I had long hair.
29:12
So I'm just picture that.
29:14
And,
29:19
I wanted to reclaim what
29:20
I thought had been lost,
29:22
which was
29:23
I wanted to go back to the college
29:24
that I wanted to go back to.
29:27
I wanted the relationship back
29:29
that I thought was great for me
29:30
at that time, you know.
29:33
And Still Waters helped me,
29:37
I I'm, I'm really genuinely like that
29:41
12 step immersion process.
29:46
God spoke to me
29:49
and relieve the pressure
29:52
of feeling like I had to be somewhere
29:54
else, that I wasn't
29:56
through the relationships.
29:58
Now, I had to be honest.
30:00
I had to write on the steps.
30:02
I had to be willing to do all that.
30:04
And when I took that little
30:06
because I saw other people do,
30:07
and I was like, okay, maybe, just maybe,
30:09
this might work for me.
30:10
And I wrote honestly.
30:11
And when I was,
30:12
when I was met
30:13
with guys like you
30:14
who I literally did meet
30:16
at Cumberland Heights when I was here,
30:18
who were like, it's going to it's okay.
30:20
Welcome.
30:21
That's what changed.
30:22
That's where I was like, oh,
30:25
that was the first spiritual principle
30:26
that I received was hope,
30:28
you know?
30:30
And so then I just then you just build.
30:32
And so when I left literally with my dad,
30:35
you know, picked me up,
30:37
you know,
30:37
Heath is waving, you know, whatever
30:41
driving down the driveway.
30:42
Right.
30:42
I was the feeling I had was
30:46
I need to replicate that.
30:47
It was just survival.
30:48
It wasn't because I was trying
30:49
to get a punch,
30:50
you know, like a
30:51
like a frequent flier thing
30:52
or anything like that. It was like,
30:55
I'm now uncomfortable.
30:58
You know, my dad hasn't
30:59
really been a part of any of this.
31:01
You know,
31:01
this is just a new relationship
31:03
that I'm discovering.
31:05
And so the only thing I know
31:06
to do is I need to go to a meeting.
31:08
I need to get into an environment
31:10
that is familiar to me.
31:11
Does that make
31:12
is just almost animalistic?
31:15
Yeah.
31:15
We're talking about like,
31:17
your next frontier there. Yeah. Yes.
31:20
And when I showed up it was like, okay,
31:22
today is going to be okay.
31:25
Yeah.
31:26
It's it's it's really a bizarre.
31:29
One of the things I love
31:32
is I came to Cumberland Heights.
31:34
There's the spirit out here.
31:36
You know,
31:36
you walk across the big wave and
31:40
and it says we don't shoot our wounded,
31:43
right.
31:44
You know,
31:44
even though we're, we're not a A
31:48
or any other 12 step ship out here,
31:50
no doubt.
31:51
But we're down
31:52
with the 12 step philosophy for sure.
31:54
Yeah, we're open to other ideas
31:58
and
32:00
there was
32:01
there was a camaraderie out here,
32:02
and they happened to be
32:03
I've been on board
32:04
six months and back in 2010,
32:07
and I'm coming
32:09
out of the traditional model building
32:13
and they cross sees me
32:17
and I introduce myself.
32:18
Yes. It crosses, you see, if I'm
32:21
Amen, I am.
32:24
And the guy says
32:26
Sun-Herald.
32:28
I've heard good things about you.
32:30
I expect good things from you
32:32
along the way.
32:33
And I was like,
32:34
that's right.
32:36
You know, I don't care what anybody says.
32:38
It meant something to me.
32:40
Sure, because I walked away,
32:42
felt like, you know what, I mattered.
32:44
Yeah.
32:45
And that's the vibe you get here.
32:49
I just carried on out there.
32:50
Where do you think, God is leading
32:52
Cumberland Heights next,
32:55
and.
32:56
If you had to
32:57
choose one thing to change about
33:00
our team, this place,
33:02
what would it be?
33:09
I think we need
33:11
to allow people to recover more
33:14
before they step foot
33:16
in a working capacity on this campus.
33:21
There used to be a day
33:22
when there was a two year old,
33:24
and I don't think we allow that anymore.
33:28
I, you know in our business.
33:30
You think two years is the appropriate
33:33
line or is it more.
33:35
Is it last.
33:36
Year you're still that year by year two
33:40
or barely straight emotionally.
33:43
And for you to throw us
33:45
into this cauldron, it's a lot.
33:50
And some people can't navigate that.
33:51
Well, I've seen the casualty of it.
33:54
Yeah.
33:55
You know,
33:55
and it lies with the individual.
33:59
But sometimes I don't think
34:01
their personal, work is done
34:05
to to get in the ring and do this or
34:09
where I've seen us
34:12
over the, over
34:13
the years
34:13
become more and more last with that.
34:17
And as a result,
34:20
we wind up having conversations
34:22
about very simple ethics that were like,
34:24
what are you doing? Do you.
34:27
Oh, we were,
34:29
you know, just real basic stuff.
34:31
Yeah.
34:34
No, that's just my opinion.
34:36
I value your opinion.
34:37
I appreciate you. Sharing.
34:38
That's something I if.
34:40
I also ask you
34:41
that question on podcast,
34:42
but I ask everybody that works for us.
34:44
So just because I like that question.
34:47
That's what I've seen. Yeah.
34:48
Because I've seen the casualty rate.
34:50
Sure.
34:51
And I also have seen the quality of care.
34:53
Yeah. Right.
34:55
And
34:57
there's something about the message
34:59
that gets sent,
35:01
you know,
35:01
and someone's doing their own work.
35:04
You cannot transmit something
35:06
you haven't got.
35:08
I make no mistake.
35:09
That's a rule
35:10
is probably
35:11
one of the most crucial rules.
35:13
Lifeblood.
35:14
You talk to guys
35:15
who've been through your 33 years ago,
35:18
and they will tell you
35:19
that they can't remember
35:20
their counselors name.
35:21
There was a camp at 330 in the morning,
35:24
no doubt, and lights clicked on.
35:26
Yeah.
35:28
Taking them to meetings.
35:29
I mean, they're living with them
35:31
in so many words.
35:32
You know, they're the ones that are.
35:33
Yeah. You're totally right.
35:35
It's the muscle.
35:35
It's the maybe not the muscle.
35:37
It's the
35:38
it's the binding factor
35:40
of these programs.
35:41
Where I think we need
35:42
to go as an industry.
35:45
Sure.
35:45
And, you know, I mean, me and Garza
35:49
have had this conversation.
35:50
We've all talked about it,
35:52
you know, is the and the 28 day treatment
35:55
center going to be around
35:57
the it's going to be it's
35:58
going to be accessible
36:00
for everybody.
36:00
I don't know.
36:03
But I would like us as a community
36:06
to all get on board
36:07
that there are changes coming.
36:10
Let's just be open minded that maybe
36:14
we haven't got the market cornered
36:16
and and we can open our mind
36:18
to some new ideas as, as a team,
36:22
you know,
36:22
because this is broad expanse of,
36:26
you know, just as science
36:28
evolves and people evolve
36:29
and I,
36:30
I think there's a whole other rabbit hole
36:33
we can jump down, I
36:36
maybe we need to open our mind
36:38
to what the possibilities are,
36:41
about truly healing God's wounded kids.
36:44
That's where my interest is, right?
36:46
What? Sure.
36:47
The needs of the client.
36:49
First.
36:50
Shouldn't we be examining every stone
36:53
and turn them over?
36:55
And who the hell am I to say
36:57
that my way is the only way?
36:59
Yeah,
36:59
and I guess,
37:00
you know that focus needs to be on me.
37:02
That that's been a process with me.
37:04
Yeah. Me too.
37:06
I just got to believe that there's other
37:09
there's there's stones.
37:10
We haven't looked.
37:12
Yeah.
37:13
Last time I was out.
37:15
No, I love I love that love.
37:17
Your perspective.
37:19
I was out at Still Waters
37:21
maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago.
37:24
And, the men's facility,
37:27
we also have the women's,
37:30
And I told Ed, Ed Thompson,
37:32
you know, after
37:34
having lunch with the guys
37:35
and the whole thing, you know, again,
37:37
you know what? All the stuff
37:39
I thought, man,
37:40
just a way to describe that place
37:41
that's just different
37:43
than maybe I had had words for it
37:45
before, was like,
37:47
I just turned and it was just an
37:49
it was just an organic, you know,
37:51
we were in the office
37:52
talking and I said, man, you know,
37:53
you guys do a really good job of it.
37:56
You just you grow up these young people
37:58
and I say
37:59
that there's a 45,
38:01
there's a 50 year old like, who cares?
38:03
But you're, you're you're turning these
38:06
don't know how to feel feelings.
38:09
Don't know how to show up on time,
38:11
don't know how to be a part of a team,
38:12
let alone a family.
38:13
Like don't know how to be a part
38:15
of society. And they leave.
38:20
We grow up or die, right?
38:22
Some of our literature says that,
38:23
you know, and it just reminded me of.
38:27
I saw somebody in particular.
38:29
That's what happened,
38:30
you know, somebody that.
38:33
That I knew in an indirect
38:35
way personally.
38:35
You know, who I'm talking about.
38:37
And I saw this person come to River
38:40
road,
38:40
you know, our headquarters,
38:41
our mothership, as you put it.
38:43
And then I saw them
38:45
out there,
38:48
and it was just a different person.
38:52
Yeah.
38:52
You know,
38:53
because I remember, like, having
38:55
just because I'm not patient facing.
38:57
Right.
38:57
But I remember having kind of impromptu,
39:00
you know, where this person
39:01
would recognize me
39:03
and say, hey, you,
39:04
they're recommending that I do
39:05
this thing called Still Water's.
39:07
And I remember just saying,
39:09
which is
39:09
what it was told to me,
39:10
which is some baloney.
39:12
I'm just kidding.
39:14
But hey, Nick,
39:15
maybe you should give some time. Time.
39:17
Because when I came to treatment, Sean,
39:18
I was an A-plus.
39:19
Plus, I was, like, trying to take roll.
39:22
You know? I was trying to.
39:23
I was,
39:23
you know, I fell into that performative.
39:27
And I remember I felt like,
39:28
I felt like I.
39:29
They were trying to fail me.
39:30
They're trying to hold me back
39:32
for another grade.
39:32
When they told me they thought
39:33
I should go to Still Water.
39:35
So I was like, what do you mean?
39:36
Like, I have.
39:38
Red shirt,
39:39
right?
39:40
I was like, what do you.
39:41
What do you mean?
39:42
I can play on the field,
39:43
you know, like I've,
39:44
I've done all the I participated in.
39:46
They were like, well,
39:47
sometimes you should give time, time.
39:49
And that was not what I wanted to hear.
39:50
So seeing that that
39:52
other person and seeing them
39:54
walk straight up to me
39:55
and look me in the eye
39:56
and give me a hug and tell me
39:59
that this place mattered and that
40:02
they were experiencing
40:05
God's healing, as you put
40:07
it, was really magical.
40:11
It doesn't get old.
40:12
It never it does not get old.
40:14
So I just
40:16
and I want to thank you, Sean, too,
40:18
for who you are.
40:20
You have always been.
40:23
No, I've never been married to you.
40:25
Shout out to page,
40:27
but you have always been.
40:31
On the front row
40:34
you have.
40:34
That's my perception.
40:37
You have always been.
40:38
I remember
40:39
you working in the First Step program,
40:42
and for some reason,
40:43
I feel like I remember
40:44
experiencing a group
40:45
or an interaction
40:46
because this was right in the beginning
40:48
of the young men's group
40:50
way there.
40:53
I can't remember his name.
40:55
Short white hair, David, David.
40:59
Harrington. David Sabaton.
41:01
Inherited it from.
41:02
So he was so.
41:04
But I remember, I remember the feeling
41:07
I had as a community member
41:10
being around you,
41:13
and the feeling was,
41:15
this guy is telling me the truth.
41:18
This guy is leading with vulnerability,
41:21
you know what I'm saying?
41:22
Like, there,
41:23
I know it's hard to be there sometimes.
41:32
in the most healthy way possible, envied
41:34
that way of
41:35
being that you provide to people.
41:37
And I think it's a gift
41:39
that God has given you.
41:44
To really show up for people.
41:47
And it's not
41:48
I'm not even talking about the time card,
41:50
because there have been
41:50
literally hundreds of times
41:52
in my first few years of recovery
41:54
that I would show up to your house,
41:56
show up to pages, house and process,
42:00
or the
42:00
and by the way, not just me, but like
42:03
25 other people,
42:05
you know,
42:06
in and out of your house and, and,
42:12
We all learned a lot
42:13
about how to live
42:15
in practice, spiritual principles
42:18
because of the choices
42:19
that you and page made
42:20
16 years ago, 15, 14 years ago.
42:24
Thank you.
42:25
You know, when we first got this house
42:28
and then upstairs and
42:31
we had this prayer,
42:33
this home, be open to anybody
42:36
suffering from addiction.
42:37
Yeah. And that it was.
42:40
Oh, it was.
42:41
Good there.
42:42
And you know,
42:43
Chapman would be out there and yeah.
42:45
Telling
42:47
like we all kind of
42:47
grew up with each other.
42:49
You know I remember these days,
42:52
you know
42:53
true story
42:53
that I just kind of fell was important,
42:56
you know,
42:57
because there was just the young men's
43:00
tract on Thursdays and Fridays at 1:00,
43:03
guys would come over.
43:04
They do group. Yeah.
43:06
And, This is circa 2009, 2010 and 2010.
43:12
Yeah. You know, Sapien ten was doing it.
43:15
He left out of nine,
43:17
took over, and then, hi.
43:20
Maybe I'm doing easy
43:23
and,
43:26
I may was doing some work.
43:27
Dining corner.
43:30
And he got his sheet set up for this guy.
43:35
And, I mean,
43:35
I decided to take a pilgrimage,
43:37
to the homeward doctor Bob and Boston.
43:42
That
43:43
and did way up there.
43:45
We found out that Connor had passed away.
43:48
Boris.
43:50
Just want to call it
43:50
a disease of addiction.
43:52
Okay.
43:53
And and it was just a sad day.
43:55
And then we got a call later
43:56
on that Sunday,
43:58
and they were asking me to lead up
44:01
what you now know
44:02
as a young man's program.
44:04
And I, me and I sat in the room
44:06
and, this is
44:08
I didn't know this through school.
44:12
I'm in I are sitting in
44:13
this room with Bob, and, man,
44:16
we just find out Connor's passed away.
44:17
I'm just going to take this on
44:19
right as it was answered.
44:22
We're sitting. There.
44:23
We go.
44:23
You know, come.
44:26
People recover differently.
44:29
Their fire, they need.
44:31
They need something else.
44:34
You can't look at him and hit him.
44:35
But in 1990 and you get your response.
44:38
Or like they need more,
44:40
they need excitement.
44:41
There's a lot stirring here.
44:44
And we were like,
44:45
we just happened to be in that room.
44:48
We decided that this young man
44:51
we used to meet in that main
44:53
meeting room over here,
44:54
and we didn't have a building.
44:57
We decided that
44:58
this was going to be set up
45:00
and a pipeline still waters.
45:03
And there were these.
45:03
And then this room.
45:05
Sloan
45:06
I mean, we have guys in there,
45:07
some guys we have some,
45:09
you know, and people would just
45:11
be singing the friends thing.
45:15
That she's here the better sometimes.
45:17
And then there were tears.
45:19
There were guys weeping.
45:25
And
45:27
it started in that same room.
45:31
And I don't think many people know that,
45:34
And I, I didn't
45:36
I knew I did not know where y'all were.
45:47
to have been on that pilgrimage, that's,
45:51
You mean it was involvement?
45:53
I mean, it
45:55
and it was involved.
45:56
Johnny Maxwell and Tom Bennett.
45:59
Amen.
46:00
Yeah.
46:01
Tom Bennett
46:02
yeah, that was the early, early,
46:04
early
46:05
Johnny Maxwell down at in Tuscaloosa.
46:08
And,
46:11
I don't sometimes it feels
46:12
like everybody's
46:13
tuning in to the same radio frequency,
46:17
you know, like nobody sent it.
46:19
You know,
46:20
Tom had built this relationship
46:22
with Johnny. Who?
46:25
Johnny was just solving a problem,
46:26
which was
46:28
he was identifying as a person
46:29
in recovery in that community.
46:30
Was leading
46:32
the university
46:33
or the student health center
46:35
at UA in Tuscaloosa,
46:37
and people would just call him.
46:39
This was not like an
46:39
official university program.
46:41
I guess we'd go over there
46:42
and eat, right? Yeah.
46:43
Well, and they, you know,
46:44
some this Dean would call him this,
46:46
professor this
46:47
and they'd say, hey,
46:48
Johnny, we've got a kid
46:49
that we wanted you to talk to.
46:50
Like I wasn't a part of this.
46:51
You know what I'm saying?
46:52
He's an administrator.
46:53
But he was just like,
46:54
well, we got to figure. And he would.
46:56
We would do this thing with the,
46:58
you know, this treatment center
46:59
that was in Alabama,
47:00
and he'd send people to come in,
47:01
and then they started hearing
47:02
about this collegiate recovery.
47:04
So it's it's just like
47:05
everybody was paying,
47:06
you know what I'm saying?
47:08
Like, it's not like there was
47:09
some program that people got trained.
47:11
And, you know,
47:12
Hymie was here and feeling excited.
47:14
And then he goes to Alabama,
47:15
and now he's in Idaho
47:16
and doing amazing,
47:18
you know, like it's, Yeah.
47:20
So sometimes I feel like, God,
47:28
As corny as this is going to sound,
47:29
anybody in recovery is
47:30
is doing for us
47:31
what we can't do for ourselves
47:32
in terms of letting us know
47:35
what the next step needs to be.
47:37
I've got another question for you
47:39
and one that
47:39
we're getting close to wrapping up,
47:40
but I. I'm sorry I've rambled so much.
47:43
No, Sean, not at all.
47:48
I want to know what you would say to,
47:52
you know, the wife, the husband and
47:54
the brother,
47:57
the neighbor, the friend
48:00
of the person being tormented
48:02
by addiction.
48:08
I say it often.
48:12
Is there is always hope,
48:14
no matter how was the same.
48:17
Right now
48:18
I have seen the most irreconcilable,
48:22
the most impossible situations.
48:24
Reverse.
48:26
On your weapons.
48:28
Surrender.
48:29
You know.
48:30
Step ten feet back from your arms
48:34
and let the opposing army, in this case,
48:38
your brothers and sisters,
48:39
come and pick you up
48:40
and let the other mothers and fathers
48:43
carry you.
48:44
You know,
48:46
there's hope.
48:47
I,
48:49
I do believe that
48:52
one of my mentors
48:53
was a guy named James Luna.
48:55
Not with us.
48:56
He's in the beginning in the sky.
48:58
The director of the men's program.
49:00
He hired me,
49:01
and he always talked to me
49:03
about God's wounded children.
49:05
Really? Yeah. And
49:08
and he,
49:09
you know, he and
49:09
I, even after he retired,
49:11
we would meet
49:12
and have breakfast at Shoney's
49:13
and just felt like
49:15
I was simply
49:15
in the presence of greatness. Yeah.
49:18
You know, he's
49:18
this guy was a counselor for 30 years,
49:21
and was just.
49:23
And he referred to them
49:25
all, all of us, as God's wounded kids.
49:29
You know, we're
49:30
all kind of these wounded healers
49:32
healing each other. And,
49:34
you know, I'm an enlisted man,
49:36
so I, kind of came up through the ranks.
49:41
And leadership
49:43
and others.
49:45
I mean, I'm not I'm looking at, you know.
49:49
Yeah. Yeah.
49:52
I love you, brother.
49:53
We're lucky to have you.
49:55
I'm really glad that you,
49:56
allowed us to schedule
49:58
and figure all this out.
50:00
You know, just truly
50:01
thank you for spending time,
50:04
for those
50:04
interested in learning more
50:05
about Stillwater's or Sean's program
50:07
that he's a part of,
50:08
we'll have some of that information
50:09
linked in the video below.
50:11
As always,
50:12
I have to ask, you know, please
50:14
like, follow and share if you can.
50:16
We appreciate you and see you next time.
50:17
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me