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'Yesteryear': A Journey Through Parenting and Identity · Other Peoples Parenting

0:00
Hello, everyone.
0:00
Welcome back to another episode of Other People's Parenting, where we read parenting books and review them for you.
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I'm Skylar Hurwitz, amateur parent, and this is my mom, Karen Quinn, New York Times bestselling author and founder of Habit Coach and Kissing Mom.
0:15
Hello, Mom.
0:16
Hi, Skylar.
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How are you today?
0:18
I'm good.
0:18
A little tired.
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You kept me up late last night.
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Yes, I did, I did.
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We partied.
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We'll keep it vague.
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Yes.
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I mean, I got to bed.
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It was 9:30.
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It was.
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That's so late for me.
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I know.
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That's late for me.
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Is it?
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Yeah.
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I love.
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Again, we've spoken about this.
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7:00Pm on the dot.
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I'm like, ooh.
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So ready to get in bed.
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It's been a long day.
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Oh, my God.
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I know.
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The sun is still blazing through my window, but still.
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I know.
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I'm tired.
0:45
Me too.
0:45
Me too.
0:46
Yeah.
0:47
So this week is going to be a little different.
0:50
Normally we cover nonfiction instruction.
0:52
I feel like they're a bit instructional, the books that we typically will cover.
0:56
Nonfiction parenting.
0:57
Yeah.
0:57
Like how to Parent.
0:59
Yes, yes.
0:59
Whereas this season, there are gonna be a couple episodes where we sort of address, like, different styles, you know, different lifestyles, where parenting can happen.
1:12
And last week, we covered Trad Wives for our articles episode, and the response was interesting.
1:19
So, you know, we were always.
1:21
We've been interested in this book.
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It's obviously a bestseller.
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If you have.
1:24
Should I hold it up?
1:24
Yes, Tina, hold it up.
1:26
Okay.
1:26
For those who are watching, if you're watching, you can actually see this.
1:30
If you're.
1:30
If you're listening, you.
1:31
Yeah, I am holding up the book Yesteryear.
1:34
For those of you listening.
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If you can't see by.
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Her name is Carol Claire Burke.
1:42
Okay.
1:43
Renamed.
1:44
Renamed Diva.
1:45
Okay, Love that.
1:46
And it's Yesteryear that's been on the bestseller list.
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And it's, you know, people are talking about it.
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People are talking about it specifically because there's a lot of speculation that this book was inspired heavily by Ballerina Farm, who we talked quite a bit about last week.
2:02
If you missed last week's episode, Ballerina Farm is an influencer who has nine children right now.
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Probably will.
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She'll eventually have more because every week it seems as though there are just more children appearing on her farm.
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And she has a farm with her husband.
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She's the heir to the JetBlue fortune.
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Maybe he's got siblings, but he is.
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He's involved.
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One of the kids.
2:28
Yeah, he's one of the kids.
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Yes.
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So they have Money.
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And her Instagram basically shows her.
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Her family and her farm, her working farm that she has.
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She produces all sorts of products.
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But what she primarily is selling is this lifestyle of going back to the days of yore when you had big families and you all farmed and worked together.
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And everyone's beautiful and everything is always gorgeous.
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And this book is a fictionalized what felt to me like a version of her, but then it took a turn at the end.
3:07
Right.
3:07
And then it becomes a little more Ruby Frankie.
3:09
Yes, exactly.
3:10
Which is another LDS influencer.
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Right.
3:14
So clearly she was inspired by that world, and I understand why.
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I mean, it is a fascinating world, particularly pertaining to the women, the men.
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I'm kind of like, okay, you've seen one pastor.
3:26
Y crazy man who thinks he's the next prophet.
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You've seen them all.
3:30
Yeah, but the women are interesting.
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The women, they're all over the place.
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Yeah.
3:34
And what's cool about this book is it's told in the first person.
3:38
So you really get this inner monologue of this woman and you realize, at least for this character, I can't speak for Ballerina Farm because I do not know her, although I do love her.
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This woman is miserable.
3:52
Right, right.
3:54
Yeah.
3:55
I wouldn't impose any of her thoughts necessarily on ballerina farms, because we don't know anything.
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She's a singular farm.
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She has one farm.
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One farm.
4:03
Okay.
4:04
Ballerina Farm.
4:05
Ballerina Farm.
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Okay.
4:07
No, I mean, you know, I know nothing about her as a person, you know, and I'm sure she's lovely and very nice.
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She seems it.
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She seems it, but who's to say, right?
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You never know.
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There were actually some quite quotes in an article that I read about her that sounded exactly like the character in Yesteryear.
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I'm going, wow, that sounds like exactly what Natalie would say, but okay, you know, so that's why I do think there that she definitely, I agree, took inspiration there.
4:34
Yeah.
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I think it's hard to believe that any woman could live what, again, in.
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In reality is probably a rather difficult life, you know, with managing nine children, being pregnant every other year or every year in some cases, you know, while again, like running an enterprise all at once.
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It's a lot of work, right?
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It is, yeah.
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She must need a nap.
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I'm sure she takes lots of.
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I hope she gets time to take naps, you know.
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When, though, is the question.
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I don't know.
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When you have that many kids.
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I really don't know.
5:09
Why don't we.
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Why don't we talk a little Bit about the, what the book is about.
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Give us an overview.
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Yeah, well, you know, we were trying to figure out how to do this.
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Yeah.
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Because it's a little different since it's fiction and you know, I read tons of fiction.
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I love.
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Spoilers abound.
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So if you want to read this book, maybe come back next week, go.
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Read it and then come back.
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Yeah, yeah.
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We're curious to know your thoughts because I mean, the discourse around this book is really.
5:38
Yeah.
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Fun.
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Yeah.
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And especially on Reddit when you read it.
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Oh, yes.
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On Reddit.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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There's a lot of different, there's all kinds of threads on different topics on Reddit.
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I know, I've read many of them.
5:51
Yeah, very interesting.
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Yeah.
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But anyway, it's, it's, it's, it's a.
5:57
Well, it's a book you can't put down.
6:00
Yeah.
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I will tell you that even if you don't like the characters or anything, it is a book that's hard to put down.
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Yeah.
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So it just moves really fast and you want to know what is going to happen.
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So it tells a story.
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And I'm going to give away plot.
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Points, but again, spoilers.
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Yeah, these are plot points.
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If you're not going to read this book, this will suffice.
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You can talk about the bases.
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Right.
6:22
Okay.
6:23
So it tells the story of Natalie Heller Mills, who is an ultra religious Harvard dropout and she marries kind of the least intelligent son of a very wealthy politician.
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And with her father in law's money, they buy a farm in Idaho named Yesteryear Ranch.
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She has six kids and while they're trying to figure out how to make a living because the husband doesn't seem very smart, can't seem to do things,.
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They're being subsidized, but it seems as though the money will eventually run out.
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Right.
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So she's trying to figure out how.
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To make money, how to sustain this.
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Exactly.
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And she starts posting about life on the ranch and she becomes a successful trad wife, influencer and who gets millions of followers.
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Who.
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And she posts about her life at Yesterday Ranch.
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Quick thing, the way they got this farm, it was basically because she was, her husband had absolutely no ambition and she was like, this is an incredibly unattractive quality in a man.
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So I'm gonna give him something to do.
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She pitches this idea to her father in law and it is beneficial to him because he is running in the heartland.
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He's campaigning, he's like, look at my son.
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Yes, exactly.
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He's a farmer.
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And this is Going to.
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From, like, Montecito.
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Exactly.
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But.
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But this would help his.
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His ultimate presidential campaign.
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So, anyway, so she starts posting about life where she starts.
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Where they're growing their own food, tending to cows and chickens, raising children, selling products, and just modeling this particular brand of Christian womanhood.
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We don't know what kind exactly of Christian womanhood.
8:02
Vage.
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Christian womanhood.
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Plague.
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Christianity.
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That's right.
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But in reality, she's shopping for the same kind of groceries that she pretends she hates online.
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She actually detests her husband.
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I can see why.
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He seems like an absolute bag of garbage.
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He's not a very smart guy and supportive.
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He's lazy.
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Yeah.
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He's just, like, deeply.
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He's really into the whole manosphere.
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And he's got all these fringe beliefs that he started to follow, you know, online conspiracies.
8:35
Right.
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So she's kind of like.
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That's not.
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He thinks.
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He believes that rats have overtaken New York City.
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Right, Right.
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I didn't know that was a thing, but maybe it is.
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I don't know.
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I'm not.
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I'm not deeply involved in the manosphere, but I wouldn't be shocked.
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That sounds on brand.
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Well, anyway, so they're living out on this ranch, and she's very famous, and.
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And their whole life is, you know, all around this lifestyle brand that they've started to create.
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They.
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They bring on a producer.
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They bring on.
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Because initially, she's doing everything on her own.
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Right.
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And then they start to bring on a little bit of help.
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And so she gets some babysitters, some teachers to come on.
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So she starts to expand her staff just a little bit, get some help in the house.
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Well, anyway, she wakes up one morning, and she's been transported to 1855.
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There's no electricity, no modern appliances.
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Suddenly she's got, like, different children, not her own children.
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And she's got a husband who kind of looks like Caleb.
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Her husband, but he's older, so she calls him Old Caleb, but he's not Caleb.
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He's old Caleb.
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Yeah.
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And she has no idea how she got there, and we don't either.
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And the book goes back and forth between.
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In sort of little sections between the 2020s, the, you know, now what's happening and what got her to where she is in her current life and also life in an 1850s timeline.
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And when we go back to her past, she's trying to figure out, how did I get here?
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What is going on?
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And then how do I.
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When they're in the.
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In the Past, Past.
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She's like, how do I get out of here?
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Yeah, how do I get out?
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How do I get out?
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Like, she's convinced somebody might be filming a reality show and she sort of is like, I feel like I'm being watched, but I can't really figure out what's going on.
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He has no idea what is going on and neither do we.
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Yeah, we have no idea either.
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And so I'll just stop here for a minute and just say that the whole.
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For me and you can tell me what you thought.
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But the whole idea of this book to me sounded really interesting.
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When I heard about it, it was like, oh, wow.
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Trad wife influencer goes back in time.
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So I'm thinking, oh, it's a time travel book.
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You love a time travel book.
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I do.
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I love time travel books.
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Take her away.
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Oh, I have read every time travel book ever written.
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That's fiction.
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Dean will read a book about time travel from last week.
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I will.
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She's so excited anytime it comes out.
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My favorite book of all time is called Time and Again by Jack Finney.
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Oh, I thought it was the Time Traveler's Wife.
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Nope.
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Oh, no.
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I like Time and Again.
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That's my favorite one.
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But I do like the Time Traveler's Wife.
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But anyway, I love the time.
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Yeah.
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So I'm like thinking, yay.
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Yeah, Transport us.
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And.
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And the thing is, you don't know.
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It could be a time travel book when you're reading it.
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It's possible.
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It is possible.
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You don't know, but you very quickly realize something is amiss.
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Something is going on and.
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Yeah.
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Which is.
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I.
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I actually liked that.
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I really liked that.
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I felt like you were kind of on the journey with her to be like, what is happening?
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You don't know what's going on.
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That's right.
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And.
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But I at least thought if.
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If it wasn't going to be a time travel book, maybe it was going to be a.
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Since it's a summer read, I thought it would be satire.
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I thought it might be funny.
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I think there were elements of satire for this kind of.
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But dark.
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Very dark.
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Mostly in her inner monologue.
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Yeah.
12:00
You know, it's like what she's putting out into the world versus how she really has an attitude of superiority of everyone.
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Absolutely.
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For her whole life.
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For her whole life.
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Even before she became a trad wife, when she was just a person.
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But I think that comes from being smart and sort of free thinking.
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I think it's easy to assume that she's an absolute nightmare.
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But I think she might just be one of those people that, like, know too much, you know?
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Well.
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And she's being brought up in a very Christian, traditional, conservative home, which she.
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Seems to like the structure of.
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She doesn't have an issue with that.
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Right.
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Yes.
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She's never cut her hair.
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Her hair is really, really long.
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Um.
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And.
12:46
Yeah.
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And she embraces the clothing, you know, the whole thing.
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Yeah.
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Well.
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And.
12:51
And as I said, I was very excited about this book, but I have to say, as I was reading it, especially at first, now I will say I was reading it while recovering from surgery.
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Yeah.
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So I was in pain and I kept falling asleep.
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So.
13:07
But I, you know, but I.
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I was focused.
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I was trying to get it right.
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Yeah.
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And I was kind of disappointed because, I have to say, she was so unlikable, the main character.
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And I found pretty much all the characters in the book were unlikable.
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And I like to have some characters that I like and can root for in the story.
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The only one I really liked was her youngest daughter in the.
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In the new Maeve, in the old timeline.
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I loved that little girl.
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She was adorable.
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She was adorable.
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And sweet as to be.
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Yeah.
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Really sincere.
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And you find things out about her.
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Later that you're like, oh, yeah, exactly.
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But that.
13:50
But.
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So I was disappointed because Natalie was so mean.
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I mean, she wasn't outwardly mean.
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No.
13:55
She, you know, she.
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I think her inner thoughts.
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But I actually.
13:59
I liked that dichotomy because I think.
14:01
Imagine being a woman who spends so much time and energy covering.
14:05
Yeah.
14:06
Covering how you feel.
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Covering how stupid you think everybody around you is just based on the way they behave and not from any.
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I don't think she was unjustified, especially feeling that way about her husband, feeling that way about his family.
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You know, I think she clearly loves her children, but she.
14:24
She's done.
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She.
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She's cold.
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Does she.
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She's so cold.
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She's cold.
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Yeah.
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I mean, she's not loving at all.
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I didn't think with her kids, I thought she.
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They didn't.
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She wasn't like a natural mother.
14:37
No.
14:38
No, not at all.
14:38
You know.
14:39
Yeah.
14:39
But I think I got the sense that deep down she loved her kids.
14:44
She just didn't really know how to show love in general.
14:47
Maybe so.
14:48
Maybe so.
14:48
Well, it's like, you know.
14:50
Yeah.
14:51
So I guess it was.
14:52
It was like.
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It was kind of negative.
14:55
So I was like.
14:56
Well, she was surrounded by such frustrating people.
14:59
Yes.
14:59
Which, again, like, day in and day out, if you are surrounded by people who it just like, it seems like, A, they're not listening to you, B, they think you, you can get the sense that they don't like
15:11
you very much and they are tolerating you.
15:14
That will grate on anyone.
15:16
Yeah.
15:16
And I think it's important.
15:17
It's hard to sometimes distinguish between her inner monologue and what is actually happening outside.
15:23
But from outside, she doesn't really let people see her sweat.
15:28
Right.
15:28
She, these are what, this is what's going on in her mind.
15:31
And although on the Reddit boards, I have to say.
15:34
Reddit boards.
15:35
On the Reddit.
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Is that what you call them?
15:37
I don't know.
15:37
The Reddit rooms.
15:38
The Reddit rooms, yeah.
15:40
I don't know.
15:40
Some people were thinking maybe because in a couple of cases she actually said what was on her mind.
15:46
It actually slipped out and people were wondering if maybe that happened more than we knew, that maybe that's part of the reason why everyone hated her.
15:55
Maybe because she was always like under her breath, like muttering, muttering mean things, you know, like college roommates.
16:02
Sounded insufferable.
16:03
Well, they did, and they, but they said they didn't like her because she was always saying mean things about him.
16:09
And I'm thinking, well, she wasn't initially, she just wasn't participating.
16:13
She didn't drink.
16:14
So college was probably a really weird environment for her.
16:16
She was at Harvard.
16:17
Yeah, well, she was at Harvard, Yeah.
16:19
A good school.
16:20
But again, no 18 year old is immune from being a freshman in college, regardless of where you go and how smart you are.
16:25
Except for her because she was brought up in a religious way and she wasn't really willing to break from that or experiment.
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She's like, listen, I'm here for school because I got a scholarship and I know it's a good school.
16:38
I'm not here to participate in all of this tomfoolery.
16:41
Right, exactly.
16:42
And so.
16:44
Yeah, that's true.
16:47
So what happens just to take you as we go back and forth, because, you know, there's a lot of that.
16:53
Every other chapter, every other chapter we're learning what her background is and we find out how much more just how religious her family was.
17:02
And her mom was a single mom.
17:04
She has a sister she doesn't like very much.
17:06
Her sister doesn't like her either.
17:08
Yeah.
17:09
And at, at Harvard, you know, she, she was really judged by all the other girls.
17:14
I think she wanted them to accept her, but none of them did.
17:17
When it became clear that that just wasn't going to happen, she sort of was like, all right, now if you can't beat them.
17:22
I'm not joining.
17:22
Yeah, she just, she didn't have much to do with them.
17:25
They were drinking.
17:26
As far as she was concerned, they were beneath her.
17:29
Yeah, exactly.
17:30
And they felt it.
17:31
Yeah, yeah.
17:31
So they.
17:32
That did not go well.
17:34
She did have a college roommate named Rena who she just hated and she hated.
17:41
She had a grudge against her for the whole time and the whole.
17:44
Throughout the whole book.
17:45
Yes.
17:46
Just always, you know, belittling her even years later.
17:51
And Rena is meant to represent the sort of liberal modern woman who is like sexually liberated.
17:58
Although she does something that is terrible, I think, but we'll get to that.
18:04
But she, she represents sort of the opposite of Natalie.
18:08
Somebody who doesn't seem to have much of a.
18:11
Not like a moral compass.
18:12
Cause again, she's an 18 year old kid in college.
18:14
But she isn't as like, I don't know, like Natalie is very together and doesn't crack and isn't interested in like the stupidity of being young, whereas Rena just desperately wants to be accepted by all of these other girls
18:28
on their floor.
18:29
And like, she's like, her desperation is palpable and Natalie finds it disgusting.
18:33
Yeah, exactly.
18:35
And make.
18:35
And makes no bones about it.
18:37
Yeah.
18:38
Anyway, but while she's in college, she meets Caleb.
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They end up getting married very soon thereafter.
18:45
And right away she gets pregnant.
18:47
Yeah.
18:48
And you can see after she has her baby, she is suffering from postpartum depression.
18:52
She can't connect to her baby.
18:55
And a nurse tries to get her some help, get her to a psychologist, but her mother just says to her, oh, just go for a jog, you know, and she's just given birth and she does, she goes out
19:06
and jogs.
19:07
And it's crazy.
19:08
I mean, the whole thing is just crazy.
19:10
And again, I think that's another example of like, okay, there is this world in which, you know, we are taking stigma away from certain things like that.
19:18
And then there is this older world where I think women were just sort of told to grin and bear it, go for a jog.
19:24
Right, right.
19:25
It's a metaphor.
19:26
That's what the mother.
19:26
That's kind of what the MOT thought.
19:28
You're fine.
19:29
You don't go for a job.
19:30
You need a psychologist.
19:31
You were just ripped in half a jog.
19:35
That'll help.
19:36
Can you imagine right after you give birth.
19:38
I need.
19:38
I need a Quaalude.
19:39
All right.
19:41
Hi, I'm Zoe.
19:42
I'm 11 years old now, but when I was just 4, my mom and I worked With Testing mom to help me get ready for a really important test.
19:50
I don't remember every little thing, but I do remember how much fun I had learning with them.
19:54
It didn't feel scary or boring.
19:56
It actually felt like a game most of the time.
19:59
The tutors were really nice, especially Maddie, and they were really good at explaining things in a way that made sense to me even as a little kid.
20:07
I learned how to think in new ways, solve problems and stay calm when I was taking the test.
20:12
And guess what?
20:13
I did great.
20:14
And I got the highest score.
20:16
I remember my mom was bragging to everyone we knew.
20:19
I'm really glad we used Testing Mom.
20:21
And if you're thinking about using them as well, well, I'd say go for it.
20:25
They make learning fun and it really helps.
20:28
Now we get to the part I'm going to talk about.
20:31
The 1850s.
20:32
When she wakes up, she's in the 1850s.
20:34
And I, I thought that was the most interesting part because.
20:37
Because it time travels.
20:38
The time travel.
20:39
I love time travel.
20:41
Are they time traveling or not?
20:43
I was like, I don't know, I can't figure this out.
20:47
It's very mysterious.
20:48
You just don't know what's going on.
20:50
And she wakes up and she finds she's no longer pregnant.
20:53
She has children.
20:54
Because in the original version she was.
20:57
She was pregnant in her real.
20:59
In her present day timeline.
21:01
Yes, she was.
21:01
And then one day she wakes up, she's in 1850s and not pregnant anymore.
21:06
And she's like, what?
21:07
And then she has those kids who aren't her kids exactly.
21:11
Old Caleb, who's not actually Caleb, but old Caleb.
21:15
And then the oldest child, Mary, treats her like a child.
21:20
And soon after she arrives, something happens.
21:23
I don't remember what, but old Caleb, I guess she's not acting like a good wife.
21:28
Yeah.
21:28
Slaps her in the face.
21:29
Well, she's acting crazy.
21:31
She wakes up and she's like, where am I?
21:33
And then she's like convinced that these people are her captors.
21:37
Right, right.
21:38
And so she keeps trying to escape.
21:40
And he slaps her.
21:41
Yeah.
21:41
He's like, get a hold of yourself.
21:43
And he beats her.
21:44
And so she ends up, I think Mary ends up stitching up her face with just thread.
21:51
No, that was her foot.
21:52
So she tries to escape and her foot gets stuck in a trap.
21:57
A bear trap.
21:57
A bear trap.
21:58
Right.
21:58
And that's when Mary stitches her up.
22:00
Yeah.
22:01
So with, with thread.
22:02
A needle of thread.
22:03
Literally.
22:03
Yeah.
22:04
And I mean, she just can't figure out what's happening.
22:08
Like and she's like, how did I get here?
22:10
Is it.
22:10
You know, is it time travel?
22:12
Is she.
22:13
And these are some of her theories.
22:15
Is she on a reality TV show?
22:17
Was she kidnapped and brought here?
22:19
Is she mentally ill and delusional?
22:21
I don't think she thinks that, but we think that.
22:24
Is this a test from God?
22:26
She thinks that.
22:27
She thinks that's probably the best explanation.
22:30
Yeah, naturally.
22:31
Right.
22:32
Has there been a civil war and they're just living off the grid?
22:35
That's why they're there.
22:37
She's exploring all these possibilities, and at one point, she finds on the ground a nub that she picks up and she recognizes it looks like a boom.
22:47
Cover for a microphone.
22:48
So she's like, interesting, huh?
22:51
Reality show.
22:52
Yeah.
22:52
But then she starts thinking, but, you know, some of the things that had happened to her by then, the beating up by her husband, getting caught in the bear trap.
23:01
She's like, how far will they let this go on reality?
23:04
Yeah.
23:04
They would probably let a man hit a woman.
23:06
Why not?
23:06
Yeah.
23:07
And then she thinks, yeah, probably.
23:08
I'm gonna buy it.
23:09
She's been.
23:10
By then, she's been raped even by her husband.
23:12
Yes.
23:13
And, you know, so she.
23:15
And she.
23:15
But she thinks, yeah, yeah, they might.
23:17
Maybe that's what's happened.
23:19
Yeah.
23:19
Maybe this is just the world we're in today.
23:21
I mean, they go.
23:21
They're always pushing it further and further.
23:23
Yeah.
23:24
But eventually, when she's in the 1850s, she does kind of give up and tries to mother those kids, but she's not very good and.
23:32
No.
23:33
Keeps losing it.
23:34
Yeah.
23:35
Yeah.
23:35
She doesn't have a lot of patience.
23:37
And it seems as though these sort of episodes happen often enough that the kids are used to them, and they kind of like, behave as if she's being completely normal when she's constantly saying, I've been kidnapped, you know,
23:55
And I imagine that is.
23:57
I think if you have a parent dealing with delusions and mental illness at a certain point, you probably do eventually have to just say, you know what?
24:06
This will pass for the time being, will just act like everything's normal, because what else do you do as a kid?
24:12
Kind of.
24:12
Sometimes they play along.
24:14
They seem resigned.
24:15
Yeah.
24:16
They just.
24:17
Sometimes they try to get her back to reality.
24:20
And.
24:20
Yeah.
24:21
When.
24:21
Whenever she says, I need to leave, you know, I don't belong here, no one reacts.
24:25
They're like, oh, yeah, this is home.
24:28
You know, they ignore her.
24:29
Yeah.
24:30
You know, it's just.
24:31
It's as if she has dementia.
24:33
It's.
24:33
It's very.
24:34
It's very, very strange.
24:35
Yeah, Very, very strange.
24:37
And so.
24:40
Okay, so now let me get to the part where this is a big spoiler.
24:46
So if you just wanna, if you don't want to know why she's in the 1850s.
24:51
Yeah, I'm gonna kind of get there.
24:53
Yeah.
24:54
Okay.
24:54
And then we'll talk about the book.
24:56
Okay.
24:56
So the what, what happens is towards the end of the modern day timeline, Natalie and Caleb become involved in a very big scandal.
25:07
Yes.
25:07
So Caleb has an affair with Shannon,.
25:10
Who's their producer, who again, is another woman that represents these sort of ultra liberal.
25:15
Empowered.
25:16
Empowered in quotations as far as Natalie is concerned.
25:21
Because her whole theory is like, listen, how empowered can you possibly be if you're working 80 hours a week and you're miserable and you don't have a family?
25:29
And like, which again, I think that's an important consider.
25:32
That's what Natalie thinks.
25:33
And Shannon sort of looks at Natalie at first as someone.
25:36
It's hard to know what her initial motivation is because she shows up and speaks very highly of Natalie and is like, listen, my friends and I, you know, from nyu, love what you're doing and think that you're really
25:47
sticking it to the man by not participating in this corporate world and sort of taking a step back and saying, well, this is what's important to me.
25:56
So I'm doing it.
25:56
But as you read more, you wonder, was that true or was this an ulterior motive to sort of get in and expose her?
26:04
Right?
26:05
And Shannon starts to do all sorts of things like gives her daughter access to a phone when it's very clear, secret.
26:11
Her preteen daughter secretly, secretly gives her access to a phone and does all these other sort of like secret manipulative, weird things.
26:23
I knew that Shannon was bad news from the beginning.
26:25
Yeah, I could tell.
26:26
Totally.
26:27
I totally knew that she was in there for.
26:29
For, yeah, you know, bad reasons.
26:31
And Natalie starts to notice her husband Caleb getting really close to Shannon.
26:35
And she's like, this is weird.
26:36
But to be totally honest, I don't care because I don't really care about Caleb.
26:42
But I'm watching this because again, Caleb is sort of like the key to the empire.
26:47
He is sort of the access to the money that keeps this whole charade going.
26:52
Charade, Charade.
26:53
That's kind of charade, charade.
26:56
Who cares?
26:57
That's just, you know, tomato, tomato.
27:00
Why not?
27:01
Why not us?
27:02
I guess.
27:02
Okay.
27:03
But then Shannon, she and Caleb, her husband, start an affair, right?
27:12
And when Natalie finds out, she is livid for Two reasons.
27:18
One, because this.
27:20
She knows Caleb is a moron, but she thinks to herself, how stupid can you possibly be?
27:26
You employ this person, Right?
27:28
You have now opened both of us up to lawsuits, to exposes, to all.
27:34
Not to mention, she's like, cheating on me is, like, the least of my worries at this point.
27:39
It is all of what you have now opened us up to.
27:42
She's very pragmatic.
27:43
She's very pragmatic.
27:45
She's like, I don't care.
27:46
Cheat on me all you want, but do it discreetly.
27:48
Do it with some woman from the Village.
27:50
Right.
27:51
Not Shannon.
27:51
Not someone who works for us.
27:52
Yeah.
27:53
Who works for us.
27:54
Who also, again, has access to all of social media accounts, who could block her out at any moment, who knows all of this intimate thing, all this intimate knowledge about her family, how it works, the kind of staff
28:04
they employ.
28:05
That really contradicts the image that she has so carefully curated online.
28:11
Exactly.
28:11
She knows it's bad news, so she goes and confronts Shannon.
28:15
Which girl?
28:17
Rightfully so.
28:18
Right.
28:18
Like you.
28:19
I knew.
28:19
You know?
28:19
And she does confront her, and they end up.
28:24
And actually, Caleb does tell her that he has fallen in love with Shannon and that they're gonna run away together and live in Brooklyn.
28:33
And that's after all this time when he's been like, but the rats in New York City manosphere.
28:40
Right?
28:41
Yeah.
28:42
It's like, it's a hellhole, you know, New York City.
28:45
But now Shannon actually told me that it wasn't really like that.
28:50
He's like, did you know that Natalie.
28:51
Natalie's like, of course I knew that, you stupid idiot.
28:54
I know, but he's mad at me.
28:56
He's mad at Natalie.
28:58
Well, why didn't you tell me?
29:00
Because you were gonna Listen.
29:01
You're online 12 hours a day reading these stupid conspiracies, believing every last one of them.
29:07
Like, I didn't think you were capable of nuance.
29:09
Well, while Natalie is confronting Shannon, they get into a physical altercation.
29:15
Yeah.
29:15
And during the altercation, somehow she's.
29:20
Shannon's pants come down.
29:22
I don't know how that happened.
29:23
Well, there's a struggle because Natalie's trying to strangle her.
29:26
Yeah, she is trying to.
29:27
And I guess Shannon was, like, mid getting dressed.
29:29
Or maybe that's it.
29:30
Yeah.
29:30
The pants come off.
29:31
So.
29:32
Yeah, but that.
29:33
That's, you know, relevant because later she accuses Natalie being a lesbian.
29:39
Because that happened.
29:40
And very bad.
29:43
Yes.
29:43
Which, again, no one really cares about the physical assault.
29:46
They're like, she's a lesbian.
29:48
Right.
29:48
Because in Natal, Italy's world, where all of her followers are very, very conservative.
29:54
And also in the many, many of them are.
29:58
And in the father in law's world where he's running for president and he has captured the hearts and minds of the, you know, middle America and also very conservative thinkers.
30:09
Yes.
30:10
That is, I guess, not allowed.
30:12
Or that's not, I guess it's just.
30:13
Looked at as like down on.
30:15
Yeah.
30:16
And so.
30:17
Oh my God.
30:17
Anyway, so that's, that's.
30:19
That they say is like even, you know, when that lady.
30:22
That's the true scandal.
30:23
That's the big scandal.
30:24
So anyway, there is a big scandal.
30:28
And I, I don't know specifically, I can't remember specifically, but there's a big scandal.
30:34
And at.
30:35
It's at that time and we find this out later that Natalie and Caleb.
30:41
Natalie loses all of her followers, people, because the scandal comes out.
30:45
Well, it's not actually because of this scandal.
30:48
It's because Shannon then goes on like the equivalent of 2020 or some television show or like a Barbara Walters esque thing and gives an interview.
30:57
Right.
30:57
And what I felt really misrepresented the situation.
31:05
Yeah.
31:05
And again, like, not to say again, I don't.
31:08
Obviously this is a fictional person, but you just.
31:10
It's so hard to know what someone's true experience was.
31:13
But I got the feeling that Shannon was out to take Natalie down at any cost.
31:18
Yes.
31:19
And I think when the implication was made that this was some sort of like pseudosexual thing, I don't think that Shannon made that.
31:27
But she also did not deny it.
31:29
And she didn't say, no, that's not what this was about.
31:32
She also wasn't honest about what went on between her and Caleb.
31:37
No, she didn't.
31:38
In this interview, she really obscured it.
31:40
Right.
31:41
And again, she misrepresented who she was, where she came from.
31:44
She was a woman from Brooklyn who came from money.
31:47
It wasn't like she was just some, you know, girl off the Greyhound bus.
31:51
But they, but they said that they kind of showed her that.
31:55
They said she was in school and that, you know, Natalie had come and, you know, got.
31:59
Taken her out of school to become.
32:01
The producer, which is not true.
32:03
She sought Natalie out.
32:04
She sought Natalie out.
32:06
Yeah.
32:06
She really misrepresented the situation in the interest of making herself look better and more credible and more like a victim.
32:13
Exactly.
32:14
And she, you know, and she pretended like, you know, she had been assault.
32:18
She had been assaulted.
32:19
But it was both an assault, but it was also a sexual assault.
32:23
It was an assault.
32:23
On her life.
32:24
It was not a sexual assault.
32:26
It wasn't really sexual.
32:27
No, I don't think it was sexual at all.
32:29
I think that that served her narrative so that she pushed that.
32:33
But I think for Natalie, it was just this moment of blind rage because I think she had considered firing Shannon a number of times throughout their tenure and, you know, decided against it ultimately because of this justification of
32:48
like, well, she makes my content so much better.
32:50
And in this world, your content can't get worse, right?
32:54
It can't.
32:55
That will cost you.
32:56
And she's like, above all else, I am a business person and I recognize what she brings to my business.
33:02
Right.
33:02
And she kept her.
33:03
Yeah.
33:03
And she kept her against her better judge judgment.
33:06
Right.
33:06
And I knew from the beginning.
33:07
But anyway, Shannon tell her because it was a book.
33:10
Yeah, she's a rat.
33:12
She's gonna.
33:12
She's gonna snitch you hours.
33:14
And she was.
33:15
And anyways, so.
33:16
So the scandal happened and so both Natalie loses her business because all her.
33:23
Her followers just, you know, abandoned her.
33:26
And.
33:26
And the father in law loses the election because there's one point where she.
33:32
And Caleb, after this all comes out from the interview, Caleb's like, you know, she's like, you know, he's probably gonna make you divorce me and all this stuff.
33:41
He's like, no, he wants to kill you.
33:43
He wants to kill you.
33:44
Yeah.
33:45
And make it look like an accident.
33:46
That's what he wants.
33:47
So I don't know what to tell you.
33:49
Like, you.
33:50
And at that point, obviously Caleb realizes, oh, I'm not moving to New York with Shannon.
33:54
She was playing me.
33:56
Right.
33:56
He finally gets it.
33:58
And so maybe that.
33:59
That's what maybe gets them to decide to do this.
34:02
They decide, well, we're going to just go live back on our ranch.
34:05
But we are going to live like it's the 1850s.
34:08
Yeah.
34:09
She's like, I'm going to prove to people that I am the real deal, and I'm going to eliminate electricity from my house.
34:14
I am not going to be on social media.
34:17
We are going to get these pioneer clothes and all of our food is going to be from the land, and we're going to be the real deal.
34:24
And that's what they go back to do.
34:27
I discovered Testing mom while living abroad in Abu Dhabi.
34:30
At the time, my older daughter was just three years old, and we knew we'd be moving back to New York City the following year.
34:36
That meant preparing her for the New York City Gifted and Talented test, something I wasn't even sure how to Begin tackling from overseas.
34:42
A quick Google search led me to Testing mom, and within minutes, I had access to incredible library of test prep materials.
34:49
For the next nine months, we committed to just 20 minutes a day, consistently working through the content.
34:54
That simple routine paid off.
34:55
She scored in the 99th percentile, exactly what we had hoped for.
34:59
What we didn't realize at the time though, is that testing is only part of the process.
35:03
After the exam came a lottery system, and unfortunately, we weren't assigned to the citywide G and T school we were aiming for.
35:09
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35:14
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35:20
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35:22
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35:27
Years later, when it was time for my younger daughter to take the same test, we returned to the very same prep materials.
35:33
And once again, we got that 99 percentile score.
35:36
Testing mom wasn't just a test prep solution for us.
35:39
It became part of our family story.
35:42
So they go back to do that.
35:44
And so when we see her in the 1850s, what's happened is she's actually in the future after her successful online life collapsed.
35:55
And the children that we meet in the past are her own children that were born later after they decided to live that way.
36:03
And her original children had ended up leaving and going to live with Natalie's mother.
36:10
And soon after, at some point after they began living this way, Natalie had some kind of psychotic break.
36:16
And so when she wakes up in the 1850s, she seems to have forgotten how she even got there.
36:23
So she kind of remembers her one life that was the online life.
36:27
And then suddenly she's in the 1850s, and she just doesn't realize how she even got there.
36:33
And so when she starts having this break, Caleb puts Mary in charge of Natalie and the kids.
36:40
Mary is like 13 or something, she's young.
36:43
And they drug her whenever they can get their hands on drugs.
36:47
I guess it's not easy.
36:48
Yeah, but they get there, they try to drug her.
36:51
Well, there is secretly.
36:53
So her two older sons that you meet in the quote unquote, present timeline live just down the road.
37:00
And they have to tell Natalie, listen, like, if you try and escape again, like, there's traps all over the woods, you're gonna get hurt again.
37:08
Which isn't true.
37:09
Right.
37:10
But they understand that, like, it's sort of like they have to continue to Build this fantasy for her.
37:16
Because in their minds, it's like this is really the only way to keep her safe.
37:21
Right.
37:21
You know, if she goes out and discovers that the rest of the world really is what she thought it was, she's gonna probably lose it even more.
37:30
Right.
37:30
Cause she has lost it.
37:32
She has lost it.
37:33
She's lost the plot.
37:34
And they.
37:35
So they're drugging her.
37:36
Caleb has some sort of shed or little building that he goes to every day.
37:40
Natalie thinks he's out farming, but instead he's actually going to the shed and.
37:44
He's on where her two older sons are.
37:46
Right.
37:46
And they basically facilitate a lot of the things, like they bring them vegetables and all this stuff that she thinks he's going out and getting and foraging for and hunting for.
37:55
It's from Whole Foods.
37:56
It's awful.
37:57
Yeah, that's right.
37:57
Yeah.
37:58
So anyway, so later, what happens is Clementine, who was the oldest daughter from the original family, the pre teen that.
38:06
Shannon gave the cell phone that gave.
38:07
The cell phone to, and.
38:08
And then she left and is living with Natalie'.
38:13
She grows up.
38:14
So it's years later and she comes back with a warrant to take the kids away.
38:21
The new kids that Natalie has had to take them away from her.
38:26
I guess she has.
38:27
Which this whole thing was a little crazy because I don't think you get a warrant to take kids away.
38:32
Well, civilians don't get warrants, Right.
38:36
If something like this were to really happen, police departments would be involved, social services or something.
38:40
Well, everybody.
38:41
Because you are removing children from a home that they live in and removing them from their parents, who again, could be pretty unpredictable.
38:49
You don't know if they have guns.
38:50
You don't know what this could drive the parents to do.
38:54
Right.
38:55
But in this case, it was Clementine shows up with a piece of paper,.
38:59
And it's like, I'm taking the kids.
39:00
And she takes the kids and they all drive them and give them to her.
39:03
She's like, I guess there's nothing we can do.
39:06
And they go away.
39:07
And then there's.
39:08
In an epilogue, what we learn is that a few years later, Mary, the daughter, writes a book about her experience being brought up in the eight fake 1850s.
39:19
And in that, she forgives Natalie.
39:23
Shannon tells Clementine, because Clementine's in love, in.
39:28
In touch with Shannon.
39:30
I'd be so pissed if I remember Natalie.
39:32
Not to go too hard on Natalie.
39:35
I hate her.
39:35
That is the most patronizing, condescending thing.
39:38
You can just go easy on her.
39:41
Yeah, she's messed up.
39:42
If this were my life anyway, Shannon, you'd be at the bottom of an ocean.
39:45
And Natalie has an interview with Rena, her old college roommate, who is now a journalist.
39:52
And we discover that Natalie is now in jail for 30 years for child abuse.
39:57
This is where the Ruby Frankie story.
40:00
Comes into play, which is she was given.
40:02
Ruby Frankie was given four to 30 years in jail.
40:06
She deserves every last second of that.
40:09
But I kind of felt like.
40:11
I don't know, like, I feel like it really.
40:14
If I were Natalie's lawyers, I would say, you know, first of all, she did have a psychotic break.
40:20
They were drugging her.
40:22
I'm not saying she was innocent, but I think there were some mitigation.
40:26
One of the questions I think that the author is asking us to consider is, you know, if you were in this woman's position, universally beloved, and, and put on such a pedestal and then just so swiftly cut down.
40:41
Yeah.
40:41
You know, could you cope with that?
40:44
Right.
40:44
Do you think you would have been able to handle life any differently afterwards?
40:49
Obviously, not necessarily to the extent of, like, absconding to the 1850s, but, like, psychologically, I don't think people are really built for these sort of, you know, build ups and takedowns that the Internet is capable of doing to
41:06
us.
41:06
Yeah, you.
41:07
You could.
41:07
And.
41:07
And that is what happened to her.
41:09
She did lose it mentally.
41:10
But, you know, a lot of people these days, this happens to.
41:14
I mean, you know, like, I think Ruby Frankie, I don't know.
41:18
I don't know much about her.
41:19
Well, the Ruby Frankie story is.
41:20
Is really sad.
41:22
I mean.
41:23
Well, it is.
41:24
Yeah.
41:24
He basically got involved with this woman who was behaving as some sort of.
41:28
Of profit.
41:29
She was a therapist for the LDS community where they were in Utah.
41:32
And she was basically convincing all these women that their husbands were abusive pedophiles and that they needed to, like, take their families away and.
41:42
And was basically creating these huge wedges between all of these families.
41:46
And for whatever reason, because she was sanctioned by the church, people continued to go see her.
41:51
Ruby Frankie, who had a YouTube channel that was very successful, this woman sort of glommed onto her and saw a vehicle to become wealthier and famous herself and basically like brainwashed her and ended up horribly abusing Ruby Frankie's
42:11
children.
42:12
And Ruby Frankie's estranged husband had no idea what was going on.
42:16
The story is really dark, interesting, worth watching, because again, it sort of asked this question, like, like, you know, what does it take to break a person?
42:25
And like, I'm sure Ruby Frankie said Some time to reflect and been like, oh my God, how did I let this happen?
42:30
But this does happen to people.
42:31
I hope, I hope she has.
42:33
I mean people, psyches are fragile.
42:35
Way more fragile than I think we are willing to consider.
42:40
Right, right.
42:41
Well, you know, when I read this book, I was gonna say I.
42:45
There were so many themes in this book.
42:48
Book and it was almost too much.
42:50
I felt like way too much.
42:52
We, we're talking about parenting, we're talking about trad wives, misogyny, religion, gender roles, the manosphere, Internet, fringe theory.
43:01
It was like everything.
43:02
Women versus women, working women versus stay at home women.
43:05
Queer baiting.
43:06
Yeah, it was like everything.
43:07
Yeah.
43:07
And it was almost like nothing was quite resolved.
43:10
And so I, Yeah, you know, other.
43:12
I, I think you can take this, this book and discuss it in so many different ways.
43:16
Totally.
43:16
You know, as to what, what was the author even trying to say or was she trying to say any.
43:21
I don't know.
43:22
Yeah.
43:22
If she has a message or she just wants you to get your own message.
43:26
The message I received is that womanhood is miserable any way you slice it.
43:30
It's hard.
43:31
It's really hard to be a wife and mother.
43:33
Yeah.
43:34
No, but I mean it's like, you know, she.
43:37
I thought, could she be saying we can really ruin our lives when we try to live for an audience of strangers like Natalie did.
43:44
Super fair.
43:45
You know, or women look at how women are hurt when they live under the rule of extreme religious strictures like Chris, certain Christian groups or Hasidic Jews or Muslims or Amish.
43:57
You know, you could pick any group.
43:59
Yeah.
44:00
Or maybe it's about how children suffer when they're having to live online.
44:06
That's not a good thing either.
44:07
So I don't know what main.
44:10
There.
44:10
Was there a main point?
44:11
What do you think?
44:12
I.
44:13
I don't know.
44:13
I think what she was trying to say is, you know, again, any, any way of being a woman in this world today, you're setting yourself up for heartbreak one way or another.
44:25
You're either going to be a woman who works constantly and if she has a family, barely sees them, can barely participate in that, or you sort of decide, okay, that's not the life I want.
44:35
But then you're setting yourself up for a number of other things like we talked about last week, where if you are a partner in a marriage that isn't bringing an income, you are unfortunately subject to this dynamic where
44:47
you're having to ask for things you need.
44:48
You don't really have the same level of autonomy and Freedom in the relationship as the other partner.
44:54
Right.
44:54
You know, so there's, there are things you can take and things you can give either way.
44:59
And it just sort of like, I don't know, pick your poison, ladies.
45:02
I guess that's true.
45:03
Yeah.
45:04
I mean, this hasn't been my personal experience, but again, you know, I think for the purposes of this book, she needed to draw such a huge, just two different realities.
45:18
But, you know, the liberal, college educated, you know, hyper progressive woman and the Christian traditional wife, they're not.
45:29
Not.
45:29
There's so many women in between that.
45:31
Yes.
45:31
Yeah, that's true.
45:32
Yeah.
45:32
Womanhood is a spectrum.
45:34
It is a spectrum.
45:35
That's right.
45:35
And, and motherhood is a spectrum.
45:37
Yeah.
45:38
You know, that's true.
45:39
And, and it's funny because I think a lot of times if you're a working woman, you know, I know how I, I used to feel this way sometimes I would think, God, I would give anything to just stay
45:49
at home with my kids and not have to go to work and face all that stuff at work.
45:53
Yeah.
45:54
But then I know if you're a, a woman who stays home, you kind of feel like, God, I wish I could just get dressed and leave, take a break, you know, be.
46:04
I mean, because work always felt easier for me than being home with kids,.
46:08
I think, I think that's something a lot of working dads could hear.
46:12
Yeah.
46:13
Yeah.
46:13
I mean, it's, it's, it's hard to, to be home with your kids.
46:16
It's really, it's so much work.
46:18
It's wonderful.
46:18
But it is, it's so much work.
46:20
And it's work that just doesn't end.
46:22
Right.
46:22
It's like you go to your office at 8, you come back at, at 6 and you're off.
46:26
Right.
46:27
10, 12 hours.
46:27
Yes.
46:28
As a parent, as a primary parent, you are never truly off.
46:32
Right, Exactly.
46:34
That's right.
46:34
And I mean, so it's, it is interesting that I, I kind of see why that trad wife trend is so big because it's such an escape somehow for, for a lot of people.
46:47
Even if you're, whether you're a stay at home mom, you might look at that and you might say like, gosh, look how beautifully she does that and how wonderful her life looks because she's kind of a rich trad
46:58
wife.
46:59
You know, she's got a big ranch and whatever.
47:02
Yeah.
47:02
And she's got staff and.
47:03
Well.
47:04
Right.
47:04
She's got support.
47:05
And I think again, that is really the biggest difference.
47:08
It's like these women who are Stay at home moms who truly are doing everything themselves and don't have the resources to pay for support.
47:16
Right.
47:16
Or are living far from their families, you know, who don't have that kind of support.
47:20
And like.
47:20
Like, there's a difference.
47:22
One is an enterprise, one is a person.
47:25
Right.
47:25
You know, and like, it's.
47:28
It's simply just.
47:29
It's hard to compare the two.
47:31
Right.
47:31
No, it's.
47:32
It's true.
47:33
Yeah.
47:33
It's a very different life than most women live.
47:36
Well, I want to ask you, did you see the ending coming in any way?
47:40
Did you figure it out?
47:42
I was really.
47:42
I was, you know.
47:44
No, I didn't.
47:45
I was trying to figure it out along with everybody else.
47:47
I was like, what the hell could be going on here?
47:49
Me too.
47:49
I could not figure it out.
47:51
I didn't know I was.
47:52
Oh.
47:53
One thing I saw on Reddit was everyone's like, how did she not know she was older?
47:56
Didn't she see a mirror?
47:58
No, girl, there were not mirrors in the 1850s.
48:01
No, I don't think there were.
48:02
You couldn't just use glass.
48:03
Like that.
48:03
Glass was scarce.
48:05
Right.
48:05
You couldn't just be putting mirrors up in your house.
48:08
And there was no phone that you could take a picture of yourself.
48:10
Exactly.
48:11
She had no idea what she looked like.
48:13
I guess you could look at your hands and you would know that.
48:15
That said, she also was really young when the story started, so, you know, she could continue to have so many kids because, like, by the time her life fell apart, she was maybe 30.
48:25
She was.
48:26
Well, she was 50 by the end of the book.
48:27
She was about 50 by the end of the book.
48:30
She thought she was pregnant again at the very end of the book, remember?
48:34
Yeah.
48:34
And they said, no, that's not possible.
48:36
You're not sorry.
48:38
Right.
48:39
It reminds me of that episode of Real Housewives of New York when Sonia and Ramona are in the bathroom at, like, one of.
48:46
It's probably Sonia's townhouse, and Ramona is, like, 55 at this point.
48:49
She's like, sonia, I have to take a test.
48:51
I have to.
48:52
I could be pregnant, Sonia.
48:54
I could be.
48:55
I haven't had my period.
48:56
And it's like, Ramona, has no one told you Menopause, like, and so they're wasted taking a pregnancy test in the bathroom.
49:05
She's like, this could.
49:06
I could be having another baby.
49:07
It's like, girl, no.
49:09
Call a doctor.
49:09
I knew you were gonna find a way to bring in the housewives.
49:12
I can bring the housewives anywhere, anywhere, anytime, any day.
49:16
I know.
49:17
I know you can.
49:18
I like that because I.
49:19
There's always a connection.
49:20
There's always a connection to the housewives.
49:21
That's right.
49:22
There is.
49:22
That's the world we're in these days.
49:24
That is true.
49:25
But I loved the book.
49:26
I will say I was surprised by it.
49:28
I was interested the whole time.
49:29
I really was riveted.
49:31
And I.
49:33
I enjoyed how mean and gnarly she was.
49:38
I did.
49:38
Because, you know, I think there's a small part of every woman who, like, if we could really just say everything we thought all the time, like, there are some tremendously frustrating people in this world who you just.
49:53
I think there's this expectation as women that we're just gonna not go there.
49:57
We're nice, we're nice, we're polite.
49:59
Because it is a survival mechanism.
50:01
If we were to.
50:02
If I were to start every fight that presented itself to me, I would be dead.
50:07
Right.
50:07
That's true.
50:08
You learn early on as a woman, and in any situation where it is literally about your physical survival or your social survival, you just learn to bite your tongue.
50:19
We.
50:19
Yeah.
50:19
And I had a lot of fun with a lot of the things she was.
50:22
She was thinking.
50:24
And that was the Reddit forum that I wanted to just bring that back one more time because.
50:28
Back to Reddit.
50:29
Back to Reddit, because she said the Reddit forum was saying, you know, because I didn't want to say before because I hadn't said about the.
50:36
The mental illness.
50:37
Yeah.
50:37
But they.
50:38
She, The Reddit people were saying, you know, maybe all those inner monologue thoughts, she was blurting them out.
50:45
And that, that was, you know, part of her, you know, her break was, you know, that she just said the things that were on her mind.
50:53
Like if you read the book, thinking it's not all in her head, she's saying those things.
50:58
And you know that.
51:00
And that's how people know she's just lost.
51:02
Yeah.
51:02
Because her mom accuses her of being cruel all the time.
51:06
Yeah.
51:06
Yeah, exactly.
51:07
And you just won.
51:08
Because it's kind of like maybe it's just a feeling her mom is experiencing.
51:11
But you're right.
51:13
Maybe.
51:13
Maybe she is.
51:14
She's always telling her, be nice.
51:15
Yeah.
51:16
And listen, I understand why people don't just, like, say the worst things that come to their mind.
51:22
I understand why.
51:23
Obviously there's a.
51:24
We live in a society and we can't be doing that.
51:27
But, man, there are moments as a woman where I'm like, it would feel so good to give you a what.
51:33
For a what for that's right.
51:36
I had to tell Skyler what a what for was.
51:38
Yes.
51:39
The other day.
51:39
I'd never heard it.
51:40
Man, do I love that expression.
51:42
Oh, yeah.
51:43
Give you a what for.
51:44
That's right.
51:45
In my day, we gave people what fors all the time.
51:49
In my day.
51:51
Yeah.
51:51
Yeah.
51:52
Back when everybody wasn't armed.
51:54
That's right.
51:54
With a camera phone.
51:55
Exactly.
51:56
With a phone.
51:56
That's true.
51:57
To expose you.
51:59
Yeah.
51:59
It's crazy.
52:00
Anyway.
52:01
But I liked it.
52:01
I liked it too.
52:02
I liked it too.
52:03
I liked it.
52:04
I didn't.
52:04
It wasn't my favorite book of all.
52:06
I mean, I.
52:07
I liked it.
52:08
I didn't love it, but it was interesting.
52:11
It was interesting.
52:11
Yes, it was.
52:12
And it left you thinking.
52:13
There are a lot of questions you can consider after you finish this book.
52:16
Exactly.
52:17
But anyway, thank you guys so much for joining us, and we'll see you again next week.