Latest / Future Christian / Reimagining the Disciples: Faith, Theology, and the Future of a Movement

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Reimagining the Disciples: Faith, Theology, and the Future of a Movement · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today we
0:47
have another roundtable episode featuring
0:49
Christians Church Disciples of Christ pastors
0:52
Dennis Sanders, David Emery and me, Loren Richmond
0:55
Jr. With Martha Tatarnic serving as host and
0:59
moderator. Dennis Sanders is an ordained Disciples
1:02
of Christ minister and lead pastor of First
1:05
Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. A native
1:09
of Flint, Michigan and a big fan of the Detroit
1:11
Lions and Detroit Tigers, Dennis is also a
1:15
communications specialist for a Lutheran
1:17
congregation in the Twin Cities and is the host of
1:20
the Church in Maine podcast which tries to live
1:23
out Carl Barth's quote of, uh, reading the Bible
1:25
in the newspaper and interpreting the news through
1:28
the Bible. Dennis lives in Minneapolis with his
1:31
husband Daniel and their cats. David Emery is lead
1:35
Pastor of Harvard Avenue Christian Church in
1:38
Tulsa, Oklahoma. David is a passionate preacher,
1:41
compassionate pastor and adept leader whose
1:44
understanding of the Gospel and vision for the
1:46
church help the church fulfill their mission to
1:50
love.
1:50
>> Loren: And live like Jesus.
1:52
>> Loren: David has a reputation for growing churches,
1:54
reaching new people and transforming lives in
1:57
every church. He has served throughout his
1:59
ministry, which includes congregations in
2:01
Arkansas, Texas and Kentucky. He holds an M. Div
2:05
From Vanderbilt and if you were to ask David what
2:08
his favorite scripture passage is, he'd tell you
2:10
whatever he's preaching on that week. He's an avid
2:14
runner and multiple marathoner and when David
2:17
isn't on the trail or in the pulpit, he enjoys
2:19
spending time with his wife Teresa and their
2:22
children and grandchildren. A uh, reminder before
2:26
we start today's conversation, please take a
2:28
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review
2:31
and share Future Christian with a friend. You can
2:34
connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
2:36
Instagram. You can send an email to me at
2:39
laurensonatemediapro.com and also find us on
2:43
substack@Future Christian Pod on substack. We
2:46
appreciate your voice and how we faithfully
2:48
discern the future of the church.
3:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
3:04
host today, Martha Tatarnic, and today I get to
3:08
lead a roundtable with some Disciples of Christ
3:13
pastors. I'm Going to introduce them to you in a
3:16
moment. And we are looking at the question
3:20
specifically in the Disciples of Christ
3:23
denomination about creeds and sacraments and where
3:28
the Disciples of Christ find their rootedness in
3:31
today's world and, uh, whether the, the context in
3:36
which the Disciples of Christ started is still
3:39
working for them today. So, um, I'm really
3:42
interested in this conversation. As someone
3:45
outside of the Disciples of Christ denomination, I
3:49
hope that, uh, all of our listeners are going to
3:53
find this bit of deep dive into this part of
3:56
Christendom interesting and uh, valuable for all
4:01
of us, whatever denomination we're in. So today
4:05
I'm joined by David Emery, Dennis Sanders and
4:08
Loren Richmond Jr. And maybe we could just go
4:12
around, uh, the screen today and have you
4:17
introduce yourselves and specifically your context
4:20
where you're ministering right now to our
4:22
listeners. David, do you mind starting us off?
4:25
>> David Emery: My name is David Emery and I'm the, uh, lead
4:27
pastor at Harvard Avenue Christian Church in
4:29
Tulsa, Oklahoma. Uh, in my sixth year, just
4:33
finished, uh, sabbatical this summer and heading
4:36
into the fall.
4:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, thanks, David. Dennis, where are you and
4:43
where do you minister?
4:46
>> Dennis: I'm Dennis Sanders, um, I'm the pastor of First
4:48
Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. Um, and
4:51
then also host of the um, um Church um in Maine
4:56
podcast.
4:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's right. And we've had you a few times on
5:00
this podcast, which we appreciate. How about you,
5:04
Loren? Uh, I do think that our listeners know who
5:08
you are, but why don't you just refresh people's
5:12
memory in case we have anybody new joining us
5:14
today?
5:15
>> Loren: Yes, thank you, Martha. Loren Richmond. I'm a
5:18
chaplain and.
5:21
>> Loren: Uh, regular host.
5:22
>> Loren: Of this Future Christian Podcast sessions. A
5:24
regular, like always host, but, uh, one of the
5:27
main hosts of the Future Christian podcast with
5:29
Martha Tatarnic here, struggling to talk. I work
5:32
as a chaplain currently and in another ministry
5:36
nonprofit context.
5:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, thank you all for being with us today.
5:42
Um, Loren, I'm going to put you on the spot here
5:45
because I understand that the disciples have long
5:50
claimed no creed but Christ. So can you just fill
5:55
us in? If we have non disciples listeners who are
6:00
with us, um, what is the context for that being
6:05
the claim and how does that get lived out?
6:09
>> Loren: Okay, I'm going to bring my credentials here in
6:11
that I have in my hands the encyclopedia of the
6:15
Stone Campbell movement. I'm um, holding here,
6:18
although David and Dennis might take me to task or
6:21
others on my accuracy of the Stone Campbell
6:26
movement, but, but the Stone Camel movement really
6:28
comes out of, or excuse me, the Disciples of
6:30
Christ come out of The Stone Campbell movement,
6:31
which began roughly 200 years ago in America. The
6:35
disciples of Christ were at one point, as I
6:37
understand, like the largest indigenous meaning
6:41
stem from continental United States denomination
6:45
in the United States. Um, but I think, I think one
6:47
thing that I do want to say for our listeners, I
6:50
think this is a conversation that has broader
6:52
implications than just beyond David and Dennis's
6:55
eyes, particular denomination. I think within
6:58
American evangelicalism, I really see this kind of
7:02
grasping for some more rootedness. And I, uh,
7:06
think I'm hoping that this conversation that we
7:09
have can bring some more insights or context to
7:13
that even broader conversation.
7:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, I think that that's really helpful.
7:20
Um, can you just maybe one of you could unpack
7:25
what that means to you? No creed but Christ. Um,
7:29
yeah. Dennis, do you want to take a stab at that?
7:33
>> Dennis: Yeah, I think what meant at least to me and um,
7:37
historically was the disciple of Christ along the
7:43
wider restoration movement came out of, um,
7:46
Presbyterianism. Um, all of the founders came
7:51
from. Were Scotch Irish, um, came out of, um,
7:55
Presbyterianism, which was incredibly, at that
7:57
time, around the 1700s, incredibly sectarian. And
8:03
so they all kind of took parts of the, uh, you
8:07
know, how they all kind of parsed the Westminster
8:11
Confession. And if you believed it this way, then
8:13
you were this certain Presbyterian. If you
8:17
believed it this way, you were this certain
8:18
Presbyterian. And if you believed it this way,
8:22
then you could take communion. If you believe it
8:24
that way, then you couldn't take communion. So it
8:26
was just really a kind of a mess. And um, and so
8:31
you had this movement and a lot of this kind of
8:34
arose especially in Northern Ireland and kind of
8:39
got moved over to America. And um, as the
8:46
Restoration movement kind of came to fore, they
8:51
kind of saw, at least the founders thought that
8:54
the creeds in many ways were blocking people from
8:59
coming together to worship. And so they saw creeds
9:03
in that way as a problem, um, of bringing people
9:08
together. So for them, what was important was that
9:13
the only creed that brought people together was
9:17
Christ. And so it wasn't that they didn't. They
9:22
were anti creed, but that they were non creedal,
9:26
that there wasn't a creed. You didn't have to have
9:29
a certain creed to come forward, to take part in
9:34
communion or whatever, or to worship together, but
9:38
that it was that you basically believed in Christ.
9:44
That was the creed. That was the only creed that
9:48
mattered.
9:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, so I want to get into the heart of
9:52
the. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
9:56
>> David Emery: I was just going to say that no creed but Christ
9:59
is kind of reflected in the way that many
10:01
Disciples churches operate today, uh, in their
10:04
congregations, uh, in the sense that there's this
10:07
idea and this belief is very fundamental or false.
10:10
Most Disciples churches, this idea is a belief in
10:13
diversity of opinions, find an interpretation of
10:16
Scripture. And so by the removing this, uh, idea
10:19
of no creed but Christ allows for, uh, a body that
10:23
we really cherish at Harvard Avenue, which is
10:25
theological humility, uh, very, very important to
10:28
us to be an ecumenical church. And so the beauty
10:34
of this early foundation of this church was like
10:37
it wasn't so much anti creed, however, it was
10:40
taking down the barriers so that the communion
10:43
table became a place of unity rather than a place
10:45
of division. So that's why communion really sits
10:48
at the heart of, uh, art of a worship service.
10:51
That's why it's not required for an ordained
10:54
clergy person to oversee the table. Table is meant
10:57
to be a place.
10:58
>> Dennis Sanders: Where barriers have been removed, uh, and have
11:01
been taken down.
11:03
>> David Emery: Uh, however, I would add that part of the reason
11:05
we're having this conversation today is even
11:08
Alexander Campbell, one of the founders of the
11:10
church itself, began to immediately, toward the
11:12
end of his own life, recognized the difficulty of
11:15
no creed but Christ. Because instead of creating a
11:18
church, a unified church, it just caused more
11:21
division within the church itself. Because this
11:23
movement, which Christian church movement, said
11:27
that we want to be, uh, a church that's
11:29
ecumenical, that focuses on the unity of all
11:31
Christians. But at the same time, how do you go
11:33
about doing that? By returning to Christ as the
11:36
center of our faith. And we're going to rely upon
11:39
the New Testament for the governance of the
11:40
church. As a result, you have people who can't
11:43
agree on the governance, who can't agree on what
11:45
the New Testament says. So instead of leading to a
11:49
unity, it just created three more distinct
11:52
denominations or three more distinct bodies. The
11:54
Church of Christ, the Independent Christian
11:57
Church, and the, uh, Disciples of Christ. And so
12:02
that itself, it was a very naive thing.
12:05
And so part of this conversation comes up because
12:07
Loren and Dennis and I have been talking and I
12:09
said, said to them recently that it feels like to
12:12
me that we're living in an age and a time where we
12:15
don't have a common set of language about sin,
12:20
salvation, human suffering that allows us to
12:24
navigate the times that we're living in. And that
12:27
there are some beautiful parts of our faith and
12:30
our tradition historically across all
12:33
denominations that speak very meaningfully to
12:36
those things. And can we hold onto that humility
12:39
at the same time, lean into some of the, uh,
12:43
decrees from our church?
12:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, you've all given, ah, yeah, you've all
12:49
given me a lot of context for this conversation.
12:52
And I love that word humility. I think that that's
12:56
a really important word. I'm just gonna speak for
13:00
a moment from my Anglican perspective because we
13:03
do most Sundays in most of our churches, say
13:07
either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed. And
13:11
I would say that at various points in my ministry,
13:14
I have found that a little strange because, you
13:20
know, it seems to assume a lot that our churches
13:26
are full of people who can all get up and say, we
13:29
believe X, Y and Z, when we know that our churches
13:33
are full of people who are at various points on
13:37
their Christian journey. And, um, just, like, do
13:43
hold a range of beliefs and a range of
13:46
relationships to those core statements. Um, but
13:50
then at other times, I have found it very powerful
13:54
as, like, sort of the faith that holds us
13:59
together, regardless of where any of us
14:02
individually are on the journey. That, you know,
14:05
there is this collective that we can sort of be
14:08
held by. Even if I, in that moment or in that
14:12
season, am struggling with a particular part of,
14:17
um, the belief system, I can still feel held by
14:21
that shared story. Um, so, yeah, I'm really
14:26
interested to hear your reflections. Um, David's
14:30
kind of given us the sense that maybe it hasn't
14:37
always led to unity, uh, and that maybe there is
14:41
this floundering for lack of some shared language,
14:47
as David said, around, um, those key experiences
14:53
of the human journey. So, yeah. Dennis, do you
14:57
feel like the no creed but Christ serves the
15:01
denomination well for today?
15:08
>> Dennis: No.
15:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
15:09
>> Dennis: I think that it. I think it. It still has some
15:14
meaning, but it's also. I think in our day and
15:19
age, it also has some, um. It falls short. Um,
15:26
when I became a disciple, this was back about 30
15:29
years ago, we still had a lot of theologians. We
15:34
had pastors. We had all these books that kind of
15:36
explained and could kind of tell you what that
15:40
whole phrase meant and could really explain to you
15:44
the whole concept of what it meant to be a
15:48
disciple. And we don't really have that as much
15:54
today. And we don't have people there to explain.
15:58
What does this phrase mean? Um, what does Christ
16:05
mean? M. What does a creed mean? What does it mean
16:09
to believe? Um, you know, we just don't have this
16:16
way of how to explain this anymore. And so that, I
16:22
think, is kind of an issue. And it's not as much
16:26
that the phrase is a problem. It's that it feels
16:29
like we don't have people around that can explain
16:33
what this means as much anymore. That's a problem.
16:38
Um, and maybe that's also a problem, that it
16:42
really does fall to us, um, as pastors, um, to do
16:46
that now. It's just that there were a generation
16:50
of people, other theologians that had written
16:53
books that had all this, and those people have
16:57
passed on, and we just don't have that that much
17:00
anymore.
17:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I mean, even no creed but Christ. Like,
17:05
yeah, as you say, uh, what does Christ mean? Like,
17:10
Christ for what? Like to follow as the Son of God,
17:14
as the, the one who shows us what God is like. As,
17:19
like, what are we sort of signing on to, to say,
17:25
even just Christ. So, um, yeah.
17:31
Loren, how do you feel like the shifting times
17:34
have brought this into question?
17:39
>> Loren: Well, I think it, I just wrote.
17:41
>> Loren: Down a note like, on thinking about what Dennis
17:43
was saying. Like, I think it assumes a set of
17:45
assumptions that aren't necessarily widely held. I
17:48
think this is the challenge that we're having, at
17:51
least in America, you know, broadly speaking, in
17:54
our culture, that there's like this set of
17:56
assumptions that we just assume everybody has that
17:59
people don't have anymore. Um, like this
18:02
assumptions on what, what democracy is and what
18:05
freedom is and what, you know, and so on and so
18:08
forth. And there's, there's this shared set of
18:11
assumptions, perhaps rooted in a Christendom that
18:15
just don't exist anymore.
18:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I, do you feel like, do you feel like it is
18:30
harder for people to feel like they have a common
18:34
faith? And do any of you have an experience of how
18:37
that stands in contrast maybe to other
18:40
denominations? Because, again, like, I see a lot
18:45
of diversity across my congregation in belief,
18:49
despite the fact that we have creeds. Um, do you
18:54
think in comparison, that Disciples of Christ find
18:58
it harder to say? Okay, well, we do have a, a
19:03
shared faith story.
19:09
>> David Emery: I, I think that David, maybe you.
19:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Want to take a.
19:12
>> Dennis Sanders: Here's the one wondering. I have. Okay.
19:15
>> David Emery: Martha.
19:16
>> Dennis Sanders: Um, what I wonder is if anybody really in our
19:20
denomination really uses that phrase mentioned
19:22
more. I don't know. In recent gatherings, I've
19:25
been with disciples. I don't hear us even using
19:28
that language. It's kind of like we don't use it
19:30
at all. We, we do talk about unity, uh, around an
19:34
open table. We're very big on inclusion and
19:37
welcome. And so, um, that, that seems to be very
19:42
important to us, but I don't hear much m. Of that
19:45
language around that, around that anymore. Um, the
19:50
kind of, the reason this has really become
19:52
important to me is, um, I, I, I was driving,
19:59
driving recently, and an Anglican church here in
20:02
town had a sign up that said God loves you and
20:04
that means everyone. And everyone is welcome. I
20:08
thought to myself, gosh, that's really beautiful.
20:10
I believe that's true. It's a part of my faith.
20:12
It's part of, part of who we are as disciples.
20:14
That we are a church of inclusion and a church of
20:17
welcome. But that, but as I was thinking about it,
20:21
that very next day two children were shot and
20:24
murdered in a church in Minneapolis, um, in
20:27
another mass shooting. And I thought to myself, I
20:31
said it's just not enough to be a church that
20:34
primarily focuses its identity of identity on
20:37
being a church of welcome. And inclusion for all
20:39
people isn't enough because it doesn't adequately
20:42
address the sin and brokenness and the evil at
20:46
work in our world that takes innocent human lives.
20:49
And so one of the things that deeply concerns me
20:51
about the disciples is that uh, we tend to either
20:55
take this very strong social activist role or then
20:58
we tend to take a role of uh, being a church for
21:02
everyone, but a church that doesn't really stand
21:04
for anything at all. And so like m. I'm thinking
21:08
about the 25 year old young man who was trying to
21:13
find his way in the world. Uh, you know, a young
21:17
white 25 year old man is probably the most
21:19
dangerous person in America. Probably my opinion.
21:23
Um, what do we have to say to a young man who
21:25
feels isolated, alone, disconnect from the world,
21:28
worried about the future, uh, trapped in uh, a
21:32
world that feels unsafe and fearful to him.
21:35
>> David Emery: Why don't we really have to offer.
21:37
>> Dennis Sanders: That person in a primarily activist congregation
21:40
or in a congregation that says everybody's welcome
21:43
but isn't able to adequately address the root
21:45
issues of his alienation. And so just saying
21:49
everybody's welcome is not enough. And by the way,
21:52
I'll just point out there is a revival of young
21:54
people attending church, but they're not going to
21:56
progressive congregations. It's not that I'm not,
22:00
it's not that I, I have, I lean progressively
22:03
theologically, um, where a church is welcoming in
22:07
every way.
22:08
>> David Emery: But I don't know what our.
22:09
>> Dennis Sanders: I don't.
22:09
>> David Emery: Here's the problem.
22:10
>> Dennis Sanders: This is the reason why I'm concerned about this
22:12
matter. What does my church have to say? What do
22:16
our disciples churches have to say theologically
22:20
about what does it mean for a person to be a saved
22:22
person, to experience the good news of Jesus and
22:25
their salvation when they're walking to the door
22:27
of our church broken by addiction and family
22:29
dysfunction? And our message is primarily about
22:33
race or gender or human sexuality. It doesn't
22:37
address anything about their own their own social
22:40
matters. And we don't have a shared language
22:42
around how is a person saved. What does it mean to
22:45
talk about the crucifixion, the resurrection of
22:48
Jesus Christ? The table itself becomes a table of
22:52
welcome without emphasis upon the crucifixion,
22:58
life, death of Jesus, which does, you know, at the
23:01
center of our faith does deal with the problem of
23:03
human evil. We have a savior who was crucified
23:06
state sponsored and by religious people. So that's
23:10
the, the kind of the. I'm, I am, um, really I've
23:14
been really grat. This is a very mark, this is a
23:16
very unformed thing in me.
23:18
>> David Emery: I spent all summer thinking about this.
23:20
>> Dennis Sanders: Um, but how do we, how do we gather around? I'm
23:25
not suggesting that we have a creed in our church,
23:27
but how do we then gather some common language
23:30
that's not just creating the disciples in another
23:32
democratic progressive religion, uh, that isolates
23:35
herself, that ignores half the world?
23:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, so I'm, yeah, I think I'd.
23:40
>> Dennis Sanders: Like to hear from you.
23:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I'm seeing Dennis and Loren really nodding
23:46
their heads a lot here.
23:47
So. Yeah, Dennis, I was going to say.
23:49
>> Dennis: That, um, because this kind of leads into
23:53
something about our identity as disciples. And I
23:56
think right now it's really being tested. I think
24:01
we're more formed and framed by ideology than
24:07
theology. Um, I think we are more identified, uh,
24:15
by progressive politics than we are by any type of
24:20
a theology. And I feel like, I, I feel like a lot
24:25
of times that's something that I am challenged by
24:32
just in congregations, but also in the larger
24:36
church. Um, and I do wonder what does that have to
24:41
say to someone who doesn't fit that mold? What if
24:47
someone walks into the church that is not
24:52
interested or maybe doesn't have, you know, fit
24:56
into the mold of issues on race or gender or
24:59
sexuality. Um, but is, you know, a white, 25 year
25:04
old white male, um, they need to hear that message
25:08
of salvation just as much. And probably if you
25:12
look at the news these days, probably even more
25:15
so. And do we have something to tell them,
25:18
something to say to them? And right now I don't
25:20
think we do it, but yet we kind of go on with this
25:23
message that we're being inclusive and that we
25:26
love everyone, but frankly we don't. And I think
25:32
to be honest, if we are really honest, we have
25:37
really replaced our theology with an ideology. And
25:43
just one example, I think.
25:47
>> Dennis Sanders: I.
25:47
>> Dennis: Used to, years ago, maybe 10, 15 years ago, would
25:50
sometimes read things about, um, there used to be
25:55
this thing called the stone Campbell dialogues,
25:57
um, where people from the three different streams
26:02
of the Stone Campbell movement would come and they
26:04
would actually talk about various things and
26:07
topics in the movement, um, on communion and on,
26:12
um, the role of the Trinity, all of these
26:14
theological concepts. And we don't really talk
26:18
about that. And so. And as you look around, we
26:23
just don't even really talk about what it means to
26:25
be a Christian anymore. What does this mean
26:30
anymore? And so I don't know. Sometimes what we
26:35
have to offer, it feels like what we have to offer
26:37
is how to be a good progressive, but not
26:40
necessarily what it means to be a good. To be a
26:43
Christian, to be a follower of Jesus, to be. To
26:46
offer, to offer grace, where people feel that they
26:52
are being beaten up by the world and feel that
26:57
they don't measure up. I just don't feel that we
26:59
have that to offer.
27:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So, I mean, I do want to say that a lot of
27:06
what you're identifying here also gets discussed
27:10
in our, uh, Anglican Church churches, despite the
27:13
fact that we do have a creed and we're
27:15
sacramental. And there are lots of ways in which
27:19
the common faith story does get expressed in our
27:24
liturgy and in our shared language and our common
27:27
prayer. And yet all of the things that you're
27:30
saying are things that we discuss in our church as
27:34
well. Um, because, yeah, you can get very caught
27:38
up in the causes, uh, and sort of lose the
27:45
distinguishing identity of being a disciple of
27:48
Christ. And I'm using that not as a denomination,
27:53
but like just what we're all supposed to be signed
27:55
up for here. Um, so I'm hearing a few issues that
28:04
you're naming, all of you, uh, about what has
28:07
shifted that maybe requires some, um,
28:12
reevaluation. So I, uh, hear a lot about that
28:17
sense of younger people, and particularly the
28:22
younger male, um, definitely finding something as
28:28
a group in denominations other than the mainline.
28:33
Um, and I hear also that, uh, that loss of just
28:38
kind of the basic Christian fabric of society that
28:43
I think we could assume to a much larger degree in
28:47
both Canada and the U.S. a couple of generations
28:51
ago. Um, that does make formation a lot trickier
28:56
and you have to be a lot more intentional because
28:58
it doesn't just happen by osmosis. Um, so I do
29:03
wanna.
29:04
I wanna circle back to some of what you think
29:08
could address what you're identifying here. But
29:12
let's just delve a little bit more into another
29:16
aspect specifically of your denomination that I've
29:20
been hearing you name, which is, um, those
29:25
sacramental pieces. So, uh, the. The table and the
29:31
font. What uh, does that look like in your
29:34
denomination? That is sort of different from what
29:38
I would expect as an Anglican. And is that also
29:43
what you're feeling is part of the problem? Loren,
29:47
maybe you could, uh, unpack that a little bit for
29:49
us.
29:50
>> Dennis Sanders: Yeah.
29:51
>> Loren: David and Dennis can certainly add some more
29:53
context here, but I'll get us started just by
29:55
saying, like, certainly in Disciples of Christ
29:58
tradition, like, there are no sacraments. We call
30:02
them ordinances. And this is kind of what made it
30:04
an easy transition for me when I was growing up
30:06
Baptist to find my way into the Disciples world
30:08
was, you know, it was a. It's very similar kind of
30:11
understanding of baptism and the Lord's Supper as,
30:15
as a remembrance. There's nothing. It was
30:18
remembrance and obedience. My, um, thought is, and
30:21
I'm curious for David and dynasty perspectives
30:23
here is that is my thought is it really puts like
30:27
baptism as remembrance and baptism as, um, or
30:30
communion as remembrance puts all the effort and
30:34
work on me, which I think is kind of like the big
30:37
fundamental problem. I see. And I think others,
30:40
uh, would agree that like, the work of faith has
30:45
become solely dependent on my efforts alone.
30:48
Whereas having a sacramental understanding of
30:51
Baptism or Eucharist, it's God's grace coming upon
30:55
me.
30:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Outward sign of an inner, inward grace.
31:00
>> Dennis Sanders: Yeah. Mhm.
31:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: David, do you want to jump in here?
31:09
>> Dennis Sanders: I do think that I agree with Loren. Um, I do think
31:16
that in my time as a pastor, I've seen, uh, the
31:21
church elevate the understanding of communion to
31:25
something greater than remembrance, approaching
31:28
more of what I would call it a sacrament. Um, and
31:31
I do think that the way that we celebrate and
31:35
share communion.
31:36
>> David Emery: On a Sunday is something that's been.
31:38
>> Dennis Sanders: In the track with Future 12 Church. You know, to
31:41
have an open table in a world where a lot of
31:44
tables are not open, where people can come
31:47
together. It's a powerful symbol and a powerful
31:50
metaphor, a powerful sacrament to call people
31:54
together around a table where Christ is the head
31:56
of the table and where Christ offers us food and
31:59
life and community together. I think it is one of
32:02
the richest, most meaningful parts of our
32:05
tradition. And that part that is rooted in the
32:09
early restoration movement. That is really the
32:10
beautiful part, really the beautiful part, uh, of
32:14
the movement where I think it gets weakened is,
32:18
um, I remember years ago we had a retired Old
32:22
Disciples minister, retired minister approached me
32:26
after worship on Sunday and said, you know, uh,
32:29
every Sunday you talk about the communion table
32:31
being the table of Ecclesia. When are you going to
32:34
talk about Christ? And I, I appreciated what he
32:39
said because he meant that there's more to the
32:41
table than conclusion, conclusion that this
32:45
expounded itself in the gospel of who Christ is
32:48
and what Christ has done for us in the cross, his
32:51
life, sacrifice, the offering of his blood body
32:54
for us and for the world. And where I fear that we
32:58
lose something in that tradition is where it
33:01
becomes just a table of inclusion, uh, about how
33:04
we gather people around us but does not really
33:07
take into account the brokenness of the world and
33:09
that Christ was broken with us and for us and
33:12
calling. I think there's an opportunity there to
33:17
really enrich that sacrament to mean something
33:22
very, very significant for the church. It's a
33:26
place that we can lean in. Uh, I don't know that
33:28
we need to adopt a creed, um, but I.
33:32
>> David Emery: Do think that that's a place where.
33:35
>> Dennis Sanders: We have something really to offer and something
33:37
that we can lean into, but something I think we
33:39
get right all out.
33:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I like that, I like that both and like that
33:45
you appreciate the offering and the beauty. Um,
33:51
but also like, yeah, the leaning in. Is there an
33:56
opportunity to lean in? Ah, you know, it's great
33:59
to be included, but included in what? Is sort of
34:03
the follow up question.
34:05
>> Dennis Sanders: Right.
34:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: So yeah, Dennis, you're nodding here. How do you
34:09
experience the uh, lack of sacramentality in the
34:13
disciples?
34:15
>> Dennis: Well, I think for me it's been helpful because I
34:19
went to a, ah, Lutheran seminary and of course
34:22
living and pastoring as I do in Minnesota, I kind
34:26
of have a hybrid version of looking at the table
34:34
of seeing it as a use and means of grace, um, and
34:40
kind of seeing Christ's presence at the table. Um.
34:44
So yeah, I mean I do see it that there is a sense
34:47
of inclusion but remembering that Christ is
34:51
present at the table, um, reminding my, and
34:57
remembering Christ's sacrifice, um, Christ's love
35:02
for us at the table, um, and I think trying to
35:06
hopefully communicate that, um, and hopefully
35:11
trying to, I think better, trying to better teach
35:15
that too, um, to people, um, to people about the
35:21
importance of that.
35:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: So are there some, like. I guess I have two follow
35:27
up questions here. I'm wondering, in your own
35:31
context of ministry, have you seen strategies that
35:34
have worked in terms of giving people that leaning
35:40
in experience, that opportunity to connect, um,
35:44
what you offer as a denomination to the most
35:49
urgent, um, questions on people's hearts today.
35:52
Have you experienced strategies that help with
35:55
that? That would be my first question and then,
35:58
um, my follow up question would be, do you feel
36:01
like there are some things that do need to change
36:05
as a denomination, like as a collective to better
36:10
Respond to the moment that we're in. So let's
36:14
maybe start with the more grassroots level. Like,
36:18
what have you seen that helps speak, um, to the
36:24
most urgent questions. Who wants to jump in here?
36:32
>> Loren: I can start.
36:33
>> David Emery: Just.
36:33
>> Loren: So I guess we'll keep the same order. I suppose
36:36
something I tried to do when I was leading a new
36:39
disabled church was just talk about. So I did like
36:43
a sermon series on can't remember the woman's
36:46
name. But I lifted up Alexander Campbell and his
36:50
kind of passion to make community accessible and
36:53
inclusive. I lifted up Willowing Barber as
36:56
someone, you know, a person of faith whose
36:58
activism was really much rooted in faith. And
37:00
then, um, can't remember her name, but she was a
37:03
Disciples missionary. And I think if she was in
37:06
China during the, um, World War II crisis and
37:09
really was like, protective of women Disciple or
37:14
Chinese, uh, women there, then I'm sure David
37:16
might speak to who I'm speaking of. But, yeah, I
37:19
think talking about how our story, um, has
37:27
relevance for today.
37:27
>> Loren: I think is important.
37:28
>> Loren: I think that really, I think broadly speaking,
37:31
lifting up important voices who have done the
37:34
right thing is not mentioned enough. Just quickly,
37:40
at church this Sunday at the UMC church, the
37:43
United Methodist Church, they were talking about
37:45
the Sand Creek massacre, which was a real tragic
37:48
scenario in the Colorado 100, 150 years ago, where
37:52
the US military just ambushed some innocent
37:56
indigenous people who were there.
37:58
>> Loren: And they.
37:58
>> Loren: Just something I'd never heard before, shared
38:00
about, uh, an army officer, I can't remember his
38:02
name, but who had. Who had said, like, uh,
38:05
initially this was, uh, they. They sold that the
38:08
US army did as like this big military success. And
38:12
some, um, military officer came back and said,
38:15
like, hey, we just. What really happened is we
38:17
ambushed a bunch of innocent people. Uh, the man
38:21
actually was. Was killed, lost his life. But I
38:24
think lifting up the stories of people who did the
38:26
right thing and how they have application today, I
38:28
think in my mind, is one important way we could do
38:31
that.
38:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I think the more that you take it from
38:36
abstract into actual lived experience, the better.
38:42
David, how about you? Um, what works?
38:45
>> David Emery: Well, so, yeah, I've been thinking about this. Um,
38:49
you know, so I've been here seven years, and we
38:51
have been really working about how it is that
38:53
inform people in faith, root them in the
38:56
community. And, um, we spent a lot of time just
39:02
really getting clarity about who we are and what
39:04
we want to be in the community, what God's calling
39:06
us to do in this community. And so we have a class
39:09
now. We offered. We spent a lot of time working on
39:11
it already. For more we offer it ah, about three
39:15
times a year. And Ready for More is where we take
39:18
a group of newcomers to the church and talk with
39:21
him about what does it mean to be a part of this
39:23
church family? Uh, what are spiritual practices
39:26
that help you grow in form and faith? How do you
39:29
find your own place within the place of the
39:31
community? What does communion mean to you?
39:34
Talking about disciples history, it's three
39:37
sessions. And so what we had before, people would
39:40
come to kind of a newcomer welcoming thing and
39:43
then they would then get asked to go to some sort
39:46
of small group or class to get connected. What we
39:49
try to do is put this thing in the middle and we
39:51
very ah, very intentional and we created a
39:54
curriculum, um, wrote a, uh, produced a, uh,
39:59
three, three 15 minute films that go along with it
40:02
where various people in our church are
40:04
interviewed. And part of is we actually have a
40:06
baptism. I uh, baptized actually the filmmaker,
40:11
uh, became a member of our church and I baptized
40:13
him for the first time first in a creep or
40:17
actually a pond in a neighborhood as a part of
40:19
the. The process is beautiful thing. Um, and so we
40:24
do this thing called Ready for More where we pull
40:26
people in. But I think there are three things.
40:28
It's bigger than a creed I think if we want to
40:31
impact the culture. One is this is what I said. We
40:35
got to root ourselves as a church in Christ. And
40:39
that means the reading of scripture and wrestling
40:41
with scripture and allowing diversity and
40:45
humility, interpretation and teaching spiritual
40:48
practices. The second is helping people understand
40:51
that faith is formed in the midst of community,
40:54
form in spiritual formation, happens in community.
40:58
And then third is enabling our congregation to
41:01
witness through compassion and mercy to our will,
41:03
which is through speaking about our faith, but
41:06
also through concrete action, community on behalf
41:09
of others in the least elite. And so I think that,
41:13
that it's. It's this process of um, bringing
41:17
people in, immersing them in community, teaching
41:21
them and giving them the tools and the skills to
41:23
read and practice spiritual. So they root
41:25
themselves in the life of Christ. It's not
41:27
necessarily having a complete defined answer for
41:30
everything as much it is, is doing this together
41:33
as a community, uh, you know, a community itself,
41:38
um, together and somehow we're forming people in
41:41
faith. So then we're asking somebody to join the
41:43
church. We're not just asking them or to be a part
41:45
of the church. We're asking to be a part of
41:47
something that's bringing life to our community.
41:50
So to be honest with you, I love the disciples.
41:53
I've been, I'VE uh, been in it my whole life. I
41:56
was baptized on the creator row for a small church
41:59
in the Fort Worth area. But I'm really, I, I want
42:02
the Disciples to succeed and be successful in the
42:04
future because I do believe in.
42:06
>> Dennis Sanders: What we have to offer.
42:07
>> David Emery: Significant. But I'm not concerned about it. I'm
42:10
more concerned, less concerned about saving the
42:13
Disciples from loss of growth than I am concerned
42:15
about impacting our community in our world and
42:18
sharing in the work Christ is doing in the world.
42:20
Because I think if you do that, the other takes
42:22
care of itself. Uh, when you focus on the
42:24
denomination, everything dies. Focus on people,
42:27
the mission, the church grows and thrives. That's
42:30
the way back. It's our mission, not our survival.
42:36
A lot of churches are in a survival mode and that
42:38
just leads to more death.
42:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, and what you're saying certainly
42:44
transcends denomination because I would say the
42:47
same thing for the Anglican Church. Um, I think
42:52
what I like about your answer is that, um, you're
42:56
not. I think you're being very clear about the
43:01
offering that the Disciples has, um, for the well
43:06
being of the world and at the same time, um, being
43:12
grounded in um, where that offering comes from and
43:17
how that's communicated in a more fulsome way. So
43:21
I think it's that both.
43:22
And how about you, Dennis? What do you see
43:24
working?
43:27
>> Dennis: I think it's been for me, good, um, effective
43:31
preaching. Um, it's been for me, um, effective
43:37
preaching of the gospel, preaching of grace. Um,
43:42
realizing that people are, I think in the, in the
43:49
age that we live in, people are being formed by a
43:53
lot of different things on social media, on cable
43:55
news, all of that stuff to tell, to get other
43:58
messages and um, that you kind of need to preach
44:04
about the fact of, of the love of God, of the
44:08
grace of God. And so you try to preach that every
44:15
Sunday, um, a little bit less and a lot less of
44:21
kind of the quote unquote, let us sermons or
44:24
honeydew sermons, um, and really just focus on the
44:30
fact that God loves people and that they are, um,
44:36
even as they mess up and fall short, that they're
44:41
forgiven. And I think that that message needs to
44:45
be heard because I think it's not a message that
44:49
we hear a lot these days. Um, what we hear are
44:53
that we're either they are bad people or we're bad
45:00
people, whatever. And so I think what needs to
45:04
happen is to have some um, good effective
45:09
preaching. I think that there is some good and
45:12
strong faith formation that does need to happen.
45:16
Um, but um, for me, at least for, um, a small
45:22
congregation, uh, you have to have some good
45:26
preaching. And, um, that has been what's been
45:29
working for me.
45:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that is the place of greatest impact. I
45:33
firmly believe, um, that we have each and every
45:36
week. And yeah, I've heard it said, like, make
45:38
sure you're preaching the good news, not good
45:40
advice. Like, yeah, you can get good advice
45:44
anywhere, but make sure that you're proclaiming
45:48
the gospel. Like, it's not just all, as Loren said
45:51
on you to get this right and figure it out and
45:55
work hard and do good. It's like this is about
45:58
the. The mercy and goodness and love of God. So
46:05
how about that, like, structural element? Do any
46:09
of you feel that something needs to change more
46:12
fundamentally across your denomination to better
46:16
respond to this moment? David, how about you jump
46:24
in? You nodded right away.
46:25
>> David Emery: Yeah, I do. I. I do. I want to say, uh, first of
46:29
all, I want to thank you, Martha and Loren and
46:31
Dennis church, um, on Main. And then Future
46:35
Christian has been very helpful. I think you guys
46:38
are. Y' all are bringing some stuff that needs.
46:41
>> Dennis Sanders: You bring.
46:42
>> David Emery: You're bringing diversity to voices. It's been
46:44
very helpful. And, and you two are Dennison,
46:47
Laura, able to offer something that I'm just. I'm
46:50
not gifted at offering. Their writing skills are
46:52
just on substack. Have been very helpful. In fact,
46:55
I just copied down something Loren wrote and put
46:59
it in my file to. To share at some point with some
47:02
other folks actually quoting Dennis's Church on
47:05
Main podcast. So I really appreciate. I really
47:09
appreciate both of those. Uh, and they're having
47:12
that conversation. I think that, that the. The
47:17
overall general denomination cell. I'm not so sure
47:22
that they. And, and I, I support the work they're
47:25
doing to bring renewal and life to the church. And
47:28
I'm, um, fond of the. You know, our leaders are.
47:31
We have a wonderful regional ministry here in
47:32
Oklahoma, and we've got good people serving and
47:35
giving their best to the church. I think the
47:37
answer is, lies in. In local congregations that
47:43
the life and vitality of the church is going to
47:46
happen through a congregational renewal. It's
47:49
going to require. It requires some of our larger
47:52
church pastors buying in and being supportive of
47:58
partnering with other churches that need help and
48:00
help and direction and helping with the calling of
48:03
leaders. We have a serious crisis of leadership.
48:07
Uh, people step out of position. So we don't have.
48:09
I'm sure it's true in the Anglican Church too. We
48:11
don't have the leaders and the people that we need
48:13
to be Able to grow. You want to change the church,
48:16
change the leader. It all starts with leadership
48:18
at a local level. And so my hope would be that we
48:22
could get some of the pastors who have vital
48:26
resources, large amounts of resources, and the
48:29
ability to attract good staff to be able to
48:32
partner with other churches to help them renew and
48:34
revitalize themselves. I think that's the key to
48:37
answer that. First of all, we've got to convince
48:39
our larger church pastors and our pastors that it
48:42
can be done if there's hope there. Because I think
48:44
that there's a sense of people pulling away and
48:46
losing hope in the denomination itself and losing
48:50
hope in us as disciples to be able to lean back in
48:54
and offer ourselves collegially, to work with one
48:57
another, to work with the region, to be able to
48:59
help grow churches. And, uh, pulling together,
49:03
pulling together.
49:05
>> Dennis Sanders: Like Harvard.
49:05
>> David Emery: One of the things we're trying to do is we are
49:07
part of the church in Broken Arrow and we've
49:10
committed, uh, a large amount of financial
49:13
resources to help them find their new pastor and
49:17
to partner with the church and new pastor for the
49:19
revitalization. So we're hoping that this will be
49:22
the thing that we could do and that maybe others
49:24
will want to do it in some fashion. So I do think
49:27
it's down to the local level. It's about
49:29
developing leaders. It's about our seminaries
49:32
helping develop leaders that love the church, that
49:34
don't want to just be nonprofit leaders, but who
49:38
love the church and want to grow the church and
49:40
develop the church. I think it's a local level
49:42
issue.
49:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I could not agree with you more. And you
49:47
know, I think it's certainly in our denomination.
49:50
I would say that it's not just that we need large,
49:54
uh, church pastors to buy into these conversations
49:58
and support. I think just across our different
50:02
ministry contexts, we need to be people really
50:05
committed to learning from one another. Like, I
50:09
lead a large, traditional downtown church, but,
50:13
like, I should be in intentional conversation with
50:17
the person who's out there doing street ministry
50:20
and the person who's starting a new church plant
50:23
and the person who's in, um, a rural, small church
50:28
setting because, like, each one of us have things
50:33
that we can learn from one another about what
50:36
we're seeing and experiencing and what works and
50:39
what doesn't. And I mean, we're all kind of
50:42
throwing some noodles at the wall to see what
50:44
sticks. But, like, wouldn't it be so much better
50:48
if, like, we're telling each other about what
50:51
noodles we're throwing at the wall and what
50:53
doesn't. Doesn't stick and can be a lot more open
50:56
about the things that don't work and the things
51:00
that do. And, you know, to have a lot of curiosity
51:03
with one another about what is happening. I just
51:07
could not agree more that, um, it is the local
51:10
level where people's lives are transformed. And so
51:15
we need to be just throwing resources and energy
51:21
and intentionality into what is happening there.
51:26
Um, sorry, I just got really excited there for a
51:28
moment.
51:28
Jump in, Loren.
51:29
>> Loren: Yeah. If I can just jump in there and say one
51:32
structural thing that I think to backpack and
51:35
piggyback off what David's saying. We need to be a
51:39
more local, networked. Whatever tradition we're
51:42
talking about, whether it's our tradition,
51:44
Disciples of Christ, or any kind of mainline or
51:47
denominational grouping. I think it needs to be,
51:51
like, less focus on upholding the denomination and
51:57
more focus on supporting local churches, whatever
52:00
that looks like. Like making sure resources are
52:02
going down.
52:04
>> Dennis: Amen.
52:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, Dennis, how about you?
52:07
>> David Emery: Hey, Bruce.
52:08
>> Dennis: Amen. Yeah, I was going to basically say the same
52:10
thing. It's that, um, for their. For our
52:14
denomination is that this will sound sacrilegious
52:20
to say, but I think it is that we need to focus
52:25
less on the more regional and general church and
52:31
more on the local church and to become more
52:33
networked, um, instead, um, so that we can network
52:40
with other churches and reach out and find ways to
52:44
work together, um, on, um, churches. And how can
52:48
we work on certain things? So how do we work on
52:54
helping each other with elders or, um, deacons, or
52:59
how do we work on things with baptism, um, or
53:05
outreach or. Or picking pastures or things to that
53:10
extent is to create networks out there, um, that
53:16
can reach out and help each other. Um, because I
53:21
think what we have done in the past is that we're
53:26
all kind of waiting for something above to come
53:31
down and do something, and that ain't working. And
53:36
it hasn't been working before 20 years or so. Um,
53:41
and so we have to kind of figure this out and find
53:47
ways of working that and work and kind of network,
53:52
because I think that's the way that things are
53:54
working now. The ways of old don't work anymore.
53:59
And, um, this is the way that it has to work.
54:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that Martha.
54:06
>> David Emery: Um. Martha, I was going to say that it's not that
54:16
I believe that, uh, the whole church, all churches
54:20
of all sizes, matter and important. And the reason
54:22
I speak to large church, larger churches, because
54:26
I feel that because of the resources God has given
54:28
us, that we have to be willing to step outside of
54:33
our comfort zones, to come alongside other
54:35
churches that need.
54:35
>> Dennis Sanders: Our help and support.
54:37
>> David Emery: Because we got congregations of 100, 125 people
54:41
who. And you got a pastor in the church and you
54:45
can't pay the insurance. My insurance right now is
54:48
just out. It's outrageous what I pay for insurance
54:55
and, uh, a smaller congregation. They just don't
54:58
have the adequate resources. And then a pastor
55:00
gets in a situation, they feel so alone and
55:02
without resource. And we've been given these
55:05
opportunities and I think the collegiality and
55:08
working together and sharing. I just think there's
55:11
an obligation and a stewardship responsibility
55:14
from our. And I do. But I'm not saying that our
55:16
larger churches are not doing it. I'm just calling
55:18
us to it.
55:18
>> Dennis Sanders: And I'm. I'm wanting to be responsible for that
55:21
too.
55:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think obligations, stewardship, like those
55:25
are great words. And I think too often we default
55:30
to being competitors with each other, honestly. So
55:34
I think the more that we can really intentionally.
55:37
I think that can be a gift of our denominations is
55:40
to clap back against that sense of, uh,
55:44
competition and survival of the fittest, and
55:47
instead to have that really strong foundation of
55:50
network and relationship and shared
55:53
responsibility. Um, I think that's so important.
55:58
So, uh, let's have a closing question here. Um,
56:04
and I appreciate all three of you for helping, um,
56:08
me understand your denomination better, but also
56:11
to really drill into some pretty key questions
56:16
that I think, as Loren said at the very beginning,
56:18
transcend your denomination and apply for all of
56:22
us. Um, so thank you for your insight and your
56:26
time, uh, and all of the great work that you're
56:31
doing. Where do you see hope? Where do you see
56:35
hope in reclaiming, renewing that core story of
56:41
who you are as disciples of Christ and who we all
56:44
are as, uh, as followers of Christ? Um, how do
56:51
you. How do you see or feel hope in being able to
56:56
really lay claim to that for a, ah, world that
57:00
really needs to hear it. Loren, do you want to go?
57:06
>> Loren: Yeah.
57:06
>> Loren: I feel a lot of hope for David or from David and
57:09
Dennis to colleagues and other colleagues. I have
57:13
a book sitting on my right. Hopefully going to
57:15
have him on the pod, uh, thriving church with
57:18
Aaron Cash and Corey Wilcoxon. I'm sorry, I'm
57:22
butchering that. Share some really encouraging
57:25
stories about, um, vitality and faithfulness
57:29
within other disciples churches. And I, I just am
57:32
encouraged by. I think there's an easy trend right
57:37
now to become very nihilistic and give up and even
57:41
in whatever kind of part of Society or North
57:44
America we want to talk about. It's easy to kind
57:47
of throw up our hand and think the world is
57:49
ending. And I think any kind of steps towards
57:52
faithfulness and hopefulness is encouraging. And
57:57
for me, signs of hope right now.
58:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: I love that. Thank you. Dennis, how about you?
58:07
>> Dennis: I think that the hope. I'm seeing small places of
58:13
hope happening and I think it's in, I could say
58:17
small patches and small networks. Um, and I think
58:22
that's where it's happening. And, and it won't
58:26
happen in big splashes. It's just going to be
58:29
little kind of shoot. Green shoots.
58:34
>> David Emery: Mhm.
58:34
>> Dennis: But I think it's those green shoots that will kind
58:36
of become a garden over time. I think that's,
58:40
that's how it's going to happen.
58:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, that's. I'm hopeful.
58:46
>> David Emery: I hear, I hear, I'm hearing, I'm hearing stories
58:50
in different places, in different spots. Uh,
58:53
people that I know who have been disciples for a
58:55
long time and new disciples were. Exciting things
58:58
are happening for our church. Uh, there's a pastor
59:01
named Josh Liu who's pastoring a church in Great
59:04
Bend, Kansas. And um, this church is reaching lots
59:11
of people in their community. The church has been
59:13
growing significantly. They just finished a new
59:16
building in a place where you would not expect
59:19
that may be not to happen. And uh, he's a great
59:22
leader. And uh, um, they're discipling people and
59:27
it's been very exciting to watch that. And I see
59:29
that in other places. I see leaders leading and
59:33
growing churches and other spots and here, there,
59:36
everywhere. Uh, I also think that there are a lot
59:39
of people who are serving in other particular
59:42
faiths that are restrictive, where people have
59:46
been going through a process of deconstruction and
59:49
who were serving in positions of leadership who
59:51
would find a welcome home in the disciples to come
59:54
and build and grow churches. Uh, we have a young
59:58
woman preaching her first sermon Sunday. The
1:00:01
graduate from Fuller Theological Center. He came
1:00:03
to us from another tradition and uh, is on the
1:00:07
ordination track with the disciples and preaching
1:00:09
her first sermon Sunday. And it's going to be
1:00:11
terrific. I can't wait.
1:00:13
>> Loren: Wow.
1:00:13
>> Dennis Sanders: For her to preach.
1:00:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's amazing.
1:00:15
>> David Emery: Uh, she's priest and she came from another
1:00:18
tradition to our tradition. And uh, she's firmly
1:00:21
rooted in scripture. She's teaching our youth
1:00:23
every Wednesday night. She's our director of youth
1:00:24
ministries. I don't want to say her name out loud
1:00:26
because I'm afraid somebody's had a recruiter. But
1:00:28
she is awesome. And uh, is going to be you know,
1:00:33
in the future, going to be one of our great
1:00:35
disciples, preachers and leaders. M Also let me
1:00:39
say this. Phillips Theological Seminary has a new
1:00:43
class this year. A, uh, new class this year of
1:00:46
mostly MDiv students. They brought in 67 new
1:00:49
students.
1:00:51
>> Dennis: Wow.
1:00:52
>> David Emery: And their new dean is being installed here next
1:00:54
weekend. 67 students. Most of them are MDIBs
1:00:59
there. It's a free tuition, 100% tuition covered
1:01:02
now because of a incredible, uh, endowment. And
1:01:06
they have a new president, uh, who's doing a great
1:01:09
job, whose focus is a van who has a specialty in
1:01:12
Evangeline. So very excited about that.
1:01:15
>> Dennis Sanders: Doug Powe.
1:01:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow, that's, that's awesome. And of course,
1:01:18
Phillips is such a friend of Future Christian as
1:01:22
well. So great to have that showed up.
1:01:24
>> Loren: Martha.
1:01:25
>> David Emery: Yeah, we're excited about Phillips Phillips.
1:01:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yay, Phillips.
1:01:30
Um, okay, Loren, any wrap up words that you want
1:01:33
to say before we say goodbye?
1:01:37
>> Loren: No, I'm just grateful for folks, um, participating
1:01:41
in the conversation and Martha, for your, for your
1:01:44
hosting it here for us.
1:01:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, thank you. I feel hopeful about today's
1:01:50
conversation and glad for all of your insights and
1:01:53
leadership. So thank you everyone. We always thank
1:01:56
you. Leave with the word of peace. So may Christ's
1:02:01
peace be with each.
1:02:02
>> Dennis: Of you and also with me and also with you.
1:02:12
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
1:02:14
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
1:02:17
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1:02:20
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1:02:23
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1:02:26
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1:02:40
Thanks and go in peace.