Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'Hot' teacher charged in illicit relationship with middle school boy & Mom to tot killer: 'You're evil!'

Transcript

'Hot' teacher charged in illicit relationship with middle school boy & Mom to tot killer: 'You're evil!' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
0:10
Speaker 1: one thirty two. A married middle school science teacher. Wow.
0:18
Speaker 1: When I think of my science teacher, I don't think
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Speaker 1: nude photo at all. That just doesn't come to mind.
0:28
Speaker 1: I mean, you see, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank
0:30
Speaker 1: you for being with us here on Serious x two. Wow.
0:35
Speaker 1: Uh to Jennifer Zikowski, heavy dot com reporter. You know, Jennifer,
0:40
Speaker 1: first of all, I love heavy dot Com. I can
0:43
Speaker 1: look everything up in a heartbeat, and it's an awesome
0:46
Speaker 1: website and I'm glad you're with us today. Just give
0:50
Speaker 1: it to me fast and furious. How do you put
0:53
Speaker 1: the words middle school science teacher and nude photos in
1:00
Speaker 1: the same sentence, Jennifer, How do just string that together? Right?
1:06
Speaker 1: It's it's really horrifying to think if you have a
1:10
Speaker 1: child at age. I'm not apparent myself. I do have
1:14
Speaker 1: nephews that age who I completely adore. And to let
1:18
Speaker 1: me just interrupt you right there, Jennifer, you must run
1:22
Speaker 1: out right now and get two twins like I did.
1:25
Speaker 1: You can get him at Walmart in the tire section.
1:28
Speaker 1: It's the best thing that ever happened to me. There
1:30
Speaker 1: are many people on this panel right now that live
1:32
Speaker 1: through my pregnancy with me. That was something. But let
1:38
Speaker 1: me tell you something. You don't risk your life to
1:40
Speaker 1: give birth and then spend every waking moment and every
1:44
Speaker 1: penny you earn all into your children to find out
1:49
Speaker 1: they've been looking at their science teacher's nude photos, that
1:53
Speaker 1: she's trying to have relations with them, and even provides
1:58
Speaker 1: him pot and a bowl to smoke it in. Hello,
2:02
Speaker 1: help me out, Jennifer. Yes, that's exactly what happened. Um,
2:08
Speaker 1: what really? I guess what what started with all of this?
2:12
Speaker 1: The boy was her student in seventh grade. In eighth grade,
2:16
Speaker 1: it was reported that he became her teacher's aid. And
2:22
Speaker 1: apparently what happened is the boy did not have his
2:26
Speaker 1: own smartphone. She allowed him to use her phone and
2:31
Speaker 1: access his Instagram account. Once he left the classroom, she
2:37
Speaker 1: got onto his account and sent a message, or figured
2:41
Speaker 1: out which account was his, sent a message to him.
2:44
Speaker 1: And so this is how the atrocious saga kind of
2:48
Speaker 1: wit are you telling me? Somehow I've heard so far,
2:51
Speaker 1: Jennifer Skowski is that he didn't have a smartphone. Okay,
2:56
Speaker 1: neither to my children, okay? Um and Ashley, you and
3:02
Speaker 1: I were just just talking about a drama that unfolded
3:10
Speaker 1: at the children's fourth grade class where a bunch of
3:13
Speaker 1: students and I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet. Um,
3:16
Speaker 1: we're texting each other messages. I don't know if they
3:21
Speaker 1: were bully messages. I don't know if they had ugly
3:23
Speaker 1: words in them. I don't know exactly what was in
3:27
Speaker 1: the text messages. But honey, you know I stopped right
3:31
Speaker 1: up to the principal and said, I want to get
3:34
Speaker 1: to the bottom of this text scandal amongst the ten
3:38
Speaker 1: ten year old and she told me that the twins
3:42
Speaker 1: were not part of it. Well, I stomped back to
3:46
Speaker 1: the car and immediately burst into tears. I was so grateful,
3:49
Speaker 1: you know, that they were not part of it, and
3:51
Speaker 1: that the drama hadn't already started in the fourth grade.
3:55
Speaker 1: And now I have to hear about this woman who
3:59
Speaker 1: parents don't even give him a cell phone for reasons
4:02
Speaker 1: I just laid out, And she gives him her cell phone.
4:05
Speaker 1: Did I get that right? So she could send him
4:07
Speaker 1: nude photos and that ends up with them having s
4:10
Speaker 1: e X. Yes, that is exactly what happened. So and
4:16
Speaker 1: how this became how his His parents eventually found out
4:22
Speaker 1: the It's kind of strange how it did unfold, and
4:26
Speaker 1: very lucky for another teacher at the school. Apparently, the
4:30
Speaker 1: boy had gone to another teacher and asked if he
4:34
Speaker 1: could mentor him. That teacher, a male teacher, called the
4:40
Speaker 1: boy's parents and said, would it be okay to mentor
4:44
Speaker 1: your son? You know, he came to me asking and
4:48
Speaker 1: the mom thought that was a little bit weird and
4:53
Speaker 1: question the boy. She jokingly said, you know, oh, is
4:57
Speaker 1: he going to molest you? Wait? Wait? Wait, wait wait?
4:59
Speaker 1: Why wait? Why would you joke about that? I know, Okay,
5:06
Speaker 1: hold on, excuse me, Jennifer. As much as I love
5:09
Speaker 1: heavy dot com, Dr Bethany Marshall L a psycho analyst,
5:13
Speaker 1: We need a shrink. Guys with me. Robin Ficker, high
5:17
Speaker 1: profile defense attorney out of the Maryland area. Dr Bethany
5:21
Speaker 1: Marshall L a psycho analyst. Juvenile judge Ashley Wilcott who
5:25
Speaker 1: has just launched her own website, child Crime watch dot com.
5:30
Speaker 1: Jennifer Zakowski, Heavy dot Com reporter back to Dr Bethany Marshall,
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Speaker 1: why would you just suddenly say to your child is
5:38
Speaker 1: your teacher going to molest you and did is that appropriate? Nancy.
5:43
Speaker 1: First of all, I'm not sure I even believe that
5:46
Speaker 1: the mother said that. It's very hard to believe, but
5:48
Speaker 1: if she did, it's highly inappropriate. The only thought that
5:52
Speaker 1: comes to my mind is if this boy was already
5:55
Speaker 1: being groomed by this older female teacher, that he might
5:59
Speaker 1: have become hyper sexual because that's some of the one
6:02
Speaker 1: of the things we see with molestation victims as they
6:04
Speaker 1: become highly sexualized. And then maybe the mother had observed
6:09
Speaker 1: this and began to wonder about her son's behavior. It's
6:13
Speaker 1: hard to believe that she joked about it, but maybe
6:16
Speaker 1: she was trying to investigate um into changes in her
6:20
Speaker 1: son's behavior that she was observing. Before I go back
6:23
Speaker 1: to heavy dot com reporter Jennifer Slakowski. Joining me just
6:28
Speaker 1: outside the courtroom is renowned defense attorney Robin Thicker. Robin Thicker,
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Speaker 1: this middle school science teacher, who was just twenty six
6:37
Speaker 1: years old, is allegedly having sex with a middle school student,
6:45
Speaker 1: sending nude photos, providing him pot and a bowl to
6:48
Speaker 1: smoke it in. I mean, she looks like a cover
6:51
Speaker 1: girl that should be on the front of UH Sports illustrated.
6:55
Speaker 1: The photo I have of her is she's out on
6:57
Speaker 1: the ocean fishing, deep sea fishing in a swimsuit. She
7:02
Speaker 1: she looks like an Olympian, and all that is right
7:07
Speaker 1: down the drain, her education, her youth, her beauty, because
7:13
Speaker 1: she's probably gonna end up rotting in jail. Robin, she
7:16
Speaker 1: can't have sex with a boy that's fourteen or a
7:19
Speaker 1: girl it's fourteen, and and every teacher I'm sure knows that.
7:24
Speaker 1: You know, the sending of the artwork to him is
7:26
Speaker 1: one thing. But actually consummating this, if indeed there is
7:31
Speaker 1: proof that it was consummated, that's a big problem. What
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Speaker 1: art work? Well, I'm talking about the photos, the nude,
7:38
Speaker 1: explicit photos of herself she sent to him from her
7:41
Speaker 1: own cell phone. That I hardly thought of nude photos
7:46
Speaker 1: as as art work when you're sitting them to a
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Speaker 1: fourteen year old. Is that what you're talking about, Robin Ficker.
7:51
Speaker 1: Every fourteen year old boy can get a picture of
7:54
Speaker 1: a of a nude, attractive woman on his cell phone.
7:58
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the huge problem. The huge problem
8:01
Speaker 1: is is that it apparently it went much further than
8:04
Speaker 1: than trading photos. Okay, right, there as she willcott you
8:09
Speaker 1: are the juvenile court judge. Oh see, I would have
8:13
Speaker 1: a big problem with a teacher sending John David or
8:16
Speaker 1: Lucy nude photos at age fourteen. I have a huge
8:19
Speaker 1: problem with it. She's a predator. It doesn't matter what
8:22
Speaker 1: his ages in terms of it's your student, it's a child,
8:26
Speaker 1: it's a juvenile. It's not appropriate. It crossed many many
8:29
Speaker 1: lines and results in criminal charges. Back to Jennifer Skowski,
8:34
Speaker 1: Heavy dot com reporter, so if you could just tell
8:38
Speaker 1: me concisely what we know, the boy comes home and
8:42
Speaker 1: tells his mother what after she reportedly said, what is
8:48
Speaker 1: is he going to molest you? If she really jokingly
8:51
Speaker 1: said that, What was reported was that the boy then
8:54
Speaker 1: rope down crying. Quote anyone could malish do. That's what
9:01
Speaker 1: he said, according to the police. So after that statement, uh,
9:07
Speaker 1: the pairing of the boy, um they they had a
9:12
Speaker 1: feeling that this was Stephanie because the boy was busy
9:17
Speaker 1: in her classroom on a daily basis, and they knew
9:20
Speaker 1: that she would often buy him McDonald's. I believe, as
9:24
Speaker 1: far as what I've seen, that's as far as they
9:27
Speaker 1: knew it was going. But obviously that most of rates
9:31
Speaker 1: raised some red flags, considering that they thought of her
9:35
Speaker 1: right away. So after that conversation, the team did go
9:40
Speaker 1: on to tell his parents that he was in fact
9:43
Speaker 1: having a sexual relationship with his teacher, Stephanie, who, of course,
9:48
Speaker 1: you know, told him not to tell anybody about what
9:50
Speaker 1: was happening or they'd be in trouble. And then after
9:54
Speaker 1: telling his parents about the abuse, police went on to
9:58
Speaker 1: interview the boy. He was arrested the next day, so
10:03
Speaker 1: they obviously by that point already had evidence. They were
10:08
Speaker 1: provided with provocative photos of Stephanie, one showing her nude
10:13
Speaker 1: and shower. Then investigators also said, you know, both the
10:17
Speaker 1: teacher and boy exchanged photos of their sexual organs, with
10:22
Speaker 1: Stephanie allegedly using Snapchat to send the photos. So with
10:27
Speaker 1: that probably thinking that they'll get lost and there won't
10:31
Speaker 1: be any proof, did even will judge as she Willcott
10:34
Speaker 1: and founder of child crime watch dot com. You know, Ashley,
10:41
Speaker 1: everyone is acting like they photos and nude photos are
10:46
Speaker 1: no big deal. I find them to be a big deal.
10:49
Speaker 1: There's a reason I haven't given the twins a cell
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Speaker 1: phone yet. Okay, there's a reason when they're on their iPads.
10:58
Speaker 1: I'm in the room with them. There's a reason for that,
11:01
Speaker 1: because I want to try and keep them safe, and
11:05
Speaker 1: it seems to me, I mean, I haven't even touched
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Speaker 1: on the alleged child rape of a fourteen year old boy,
11:13
Speaker 1: A boy that had just turned fourteen, A boy that
11:16
Speaker 1: broke down in tears crying when he told his mom
11:21
Speaker 1: what had happened. Allegedly, this middle school science teacher had
11:26
Speaker 1: taken him out alone, on many occasions alone, to have
11:31
Speaker 1: sex with this little boy. Okay, exchanging nude photos is
11:36
Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. There are allegations she gave
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Speaker 1: him marijuana and showed him how to smoke it out
11:42
Speaker 1: of a bowl. But you don't you're you're not supposed
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Speaker 1: to know all that when you have just had your
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Speaker 1: fourteenth birthday, Ashley, No, and so sending the nude pictures
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Speaker 1: it's called grooming, and that's how she started it. And
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Speaker 1: he's the victim. No fourteen year old, no teenager has
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Speaker 1: the capacity brain development to make good decisions and to
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Speaker 1: know what's right, what's wrong. How do I make a
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Speaker 1: good decision? That's why she's the criminal. He's the victim.
12:14
Speaker 1: It's just like you said with the ten year olds,
12:15
Speaker 1: with texting. They don't have the brain development capacity to
12:20
Speaker 1: know how to say things well or correctly, or that
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Speaker 1: it's not hurtful. They don't have the ability. This thirteen
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Speaker 1: year old had absolutely no ability to know what to
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Speaker 1: do next or how to handle when a teacher sent
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Speaker 1: him nude pictures. She was grooming him. A teacher who
12:38
Speaker 1: taught at New Smyrna Beach Middle School in Florida just
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Speaker 1: arrested on allegations she had a sex relationship with a
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Speaker 1: fourteen year old boy. And here is the kicker. To
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, she seemingly was an happy marriage, her
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Speaker 1: husband a firefire. I know, isn't it shocking? I saw
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Speaker 1: the photo. He's so nice looking. They're a beautiful couple,
13:02
Speaker 1: and I want to say something about these photos. So
13:05
Speaker 1: because this is bugging me too. Not only is sending
13:08
Speaker 1: a photo a part of the grooming process, as Ashley said,
13:12
Speaker 1: but sexual child sexual abuse is not just having sex
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Speaker 1: with a child. It's stimulating the child to feel feelings
13:22
Speaker 1: that they're not yet prepared to handle. Okay, so um,
13:27
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse often starts with with showing photos. That's
13:31
Speaker 1: where it starts. That's where the grooming process starts, because
13:34
Speaker 1: especially with young boys, they they're just beginning to get
13:38
Speaker 1: erections or they're just beginning to become sexual beings, and
13:43
Speaker 1: they do not know how to handle that. And the
13:45
Speaker 1: fact that he might look at those photos get an
13:47
Speaker 1: erection is the beginnings of him feeling that he's at
13:52
Speaker 1: fault in this whole situation. He might tell himself, well,
13:55
Speaker 1: I'm attracted to her, so I must want it, and
13:58
Speaker 1: there the confusion begin. And we know from so many
14:01
Speaker 1: cases that we've handled, that that you have covered, Nancy,
14:05
Speaker 1: and that you've had me on your panel, that these
14:07
Speaker 1: women are often quite beautiful. And what I think about
14:11
Speaker 1: that is that they're really childlike. They're very kind of
14:14
Speaker 1: arrested developmentally. They're very immature. They see their child victims
14:20
Speaker 1: as an age mate. They imagine, even though there was
14:22
Speaker 1: more than ten years age difference between the two, it's
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Speaker 1: as if the two are the same age in her mind. Nancy,
14:28
Speaker 1: she would she would go pick him up at the
14:30
Speaker 1: parents house at eleven o'clock at night. That is bold.
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Speaker 1: She's the teacher, and she would pull up to the
14:37
Speaker 1: house and retrieve him from the house while he was
14:41
Speaker 1: with his parents and to me. That tells me how cunning, manipulative,
14:46
Speaker 1: and predatory she was with me. Were now defense attorney
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Speaker 1: Robin Thicker, Robin joining us from the Maryland and DC jurisdiction. Robin,
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Speaker 1: what's going to be her defense? Well? I think her
15:01
Speaker 1: best offense is that they did not have sex and
15:04
Speaker 1: that there's no proof that they did. I mean, they
15:07
Speaker 1: obviously had the photos. UM. I can't understand why these
15:12
Speaker 1: parents were so derrilic that they didn't know that their
15:15
Speaker 1: child was supposedly going out night after night and then
15:19
Speaker 1: coming back in the middle of the night. What were
15:22
Speaker 1: they doing? UM? I think that that this woman um
15:27
Speaker 1: needs counseling. Certainly she has some sort of mental defect
15:33
Speaker 1: at this point where she knew what she was doing
15:37
Speaker 1: was wrong, but yet she went ahead and did it anyway.
15:40
Speaker 1: She didn't know right from wrong, And I think that
15:43
Speaker 1: as a defensi attorney I would get her and counseling
15:46
Speaker 1: so fast there ahead. Would you do know, Robin, you
15:49
Speaker 1: just said to completely opposite defenses in one sentence. You said, well,
15:53
Speaker 1: she knew it was wrong, and she went ahead and
15:55
Speaker 1: did it anyway, but she didn't know right from wrong. Okay,
15:58
Speaker 1: you know, Robin, you're so used to spinning your yarns
16:02
Speaker 1: in front of jury's and they actually buy it. Guys,
16:05
Speaker 1: Robin Ficker has a heck of a track record at trial.
16:08
Speaker 1: But I picked up on that, Robin, she can't know
16:11
Speaker 1: right from wrong and not know right from wrong, and
16:15
Speaker 1: to throw it at me in the very same sentence, Robin,
16:17
Speaker 1: I mean you didn't think we were going to catch them.
16:20
Speaker 1: That's called being duplicitous um as as she was, because
16:25
Speaker 1: she was obviously of projecting right points her away from you.
16:32
Speaker 1: Now I know how you win so many trials. It's
16:35
Speaker 1: like a snake charmer. I'm actually listening to you. Yes,
16:38
Speaker 1: that's what you called. It was you that said it
16:44
Speaker 1: to her husband. One image to her school fellow teachers,
16:48
Speaker 1: and then quite another image to him. So she was
16:52
Speaker 1: she was an actress, that's for sure. You know too.
16:56
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, l a psychoanalystic, reminds me when I
16:59
Speaker 1: did my student teaching. Okay, I was set to be
17:02
Speaker 1: an English teacher before I got admitted in a law school,
17:06
Speaker 1: trying to get to university level. When I would go
17:09
Speaker 1: into the teacher's lounge, they were in their sipping coffee,
17:12
Speaker 1: reading actually knitting and Christ shang, okay, you don't really
17:19
Speaker 1: think of them as picking up fourteen year old boys
17:23
Speaker 1: for a booty call at eleven pm night, okay, And
17:27
Speaker 1: the whole thing correcked wide open when the boy breaks
17:30
Speaker 1: down crying and explains why his grades have gone down
17:34
Speaker 1: because he started this sex relationship with his science teacher,
17:39
Speaker 1: and then the next year she writes for him to
17:42
Speaker 1: be her teacher's aid. I mean, really, you know, Nancy,
17:47
Speaker 1: what it reminds me of. I've I've had a number
17:49
Speaker 1: of patients who were molested by priests, and they were
17:52
Speaker 1: actually referred to me by the local diocese here because
17:56
Speaker 1: the the there's a victims therapy unit where they actually
18:01
Speaker 1: pay for therapy for victims of abuse by priests, and
18:06
Speaker 1: a lot of these victims the abuse started was some
18:10
Speaker 1: kind of a relationship where the young man was made
18:14
Speaker 1: to feel special around the age of maybe nine, ten
18:17
Speaker 1: or eleven, and then they were given special duties with
18:21
Speaker 1: the priest, and then it would progress to sex. But
18:25
Speaker 1: then long after the sex was over, they still felt
18:29
Speaker 1: obligated to the priests, like the priest had some sort
18:31
Speaker 1: of power over them, and they talked a lot of
18:34
Speaker 1: them talked about feeling stalked by the priest, like the
18:36
Speaker 1: priest was very preoccupied with them, And I'm thinking about
18:40
Speaker 1: that with this woman, that this is not just about sex,
18:43
Speaker 1: but she's obsessed with this boy. I mean, she goes
18:46
Speaker 1: to great lengths to pick him up at eleven o'clock
18:49
Speaker 1: at night, to give him her cell phone, make him
18:51
Speaker 1: a teacher's aid. The trauma for him is not just
18:55
Speaker 1: going to be the sexual aspect, which is horrific enough,
19:00
Speaker 1: but she has made him feel that he belongs to her,
19:05
Speaker 1: He's obligated to her. She's not going to be okay
19:08
Speaker 1: without him, that it's his fault that that that she's
19:11
Speaker 1: going to jail, and that her marriage has broken up,
19:14
Speaker 1: and she may be like a Mary kay La Turno
19:17
Speaker 1: where she gets out of jail and she's still obsessed
19:20
Speaker 1: with him. I mean, this is a preoccupation on her
19:22
Speaker 1: part that could go on and on. Some some offenders
19:26
Speaker 1: choose multiple victims. Sometimes they just have one and they
19:30
Speaker 1: just gun for that one person, that that person is
19:33
Speaker 1: the one person they want, and it lasts a lifestyle lifetime,
19:36
Speaker 1: kind of like a stocking profile. Judge Wilcott and Jennifer
19:40
Speaker 1: hold On one moment, Robin Ficker, I see that both
19:43
Speaker 1: she the science teacher, and her firefighter husband have now
19:48
Speaker 1: taken down all their social media. I'm sure that was
19:51
Speaker 1: on purpose, because the more photos there are of her
19:55
Speaker 1: floating around out there, the more fodder it is for
19:59
Speaker 1: the media. Uh, and it can be used by the prosecution. Well,
20:05
Speaker 1: I mean it's a cause celebra First of all, it's
20:08
Speaker 1: gotten on the Nancy Gray Show. That's where it's going
20:10
Speaker 1: to get the most coverage. But she The only thing
20:17
Speaker 1: that I can see that she can do if they
20:20
Speaker 1: can prove that there was sexual activity, is for her
20:23
Speaker 1: to get into intensive counseling, go into an inpatient program.
20:29
Speaker 1: I really can't see much else that she can do
20:31
Speaker 1: if once they proved that indeed there was sex between
20:35
Speaker 1: the two. I don't know if she made any statements.
20:37
Speaker 1: I hope she didn't for her sake, UM and the husband,
20:42
Speaker 1: I would just ignore what he's saying and what these
20:44
Speaker 1: other people are saying to the media. Straight back to
20:47
Speaker 1: Jennifer Szikowski with heavy dot Com, Jennifer, I understand she's
20:51
Speaker 1: already been released from jail. Yes, that is correct from
20:56
Speaker 1: my understanding from the court records, she was released released
21:01
Speaker 1: on dollar bail, and yeah, she is. It didn't go
21:07
Speaker 1: into length whether I'm sure she's wearing an ankle bracelet,
21:12
Speaker 1: but you know she's not set to be arranged until
21:15
Speaker 1: the twenty March, so what could happen in between that time?
21:20
Speaker 1: You know, she had actually made contact with the teenage again, Um,
21:29
Speaker 1: after all this, she's still contacting him. Well, this was
21:33
Speaker 1: before the police for contacted. But I believe because of
21:39
Speaker 1: you know, the divorce being piled on the twelve, I'm
21:43
Speaker 1: sure that there were red flags that were that were
21:45
Speaker 1: raised before that, and so she had left a message
21:51
Speaker 1: for the boy on his cell phone and they're not
21:56
Speaker 1: saying who. I'm assuming a parent probably was the person
22:00
Speaker 1: who took the next call when she called out. Well,
22:06
Speaker 1: another concern to me to Ashley Wilcot, juvenile judge and
22:10
Speaker 1: founder of child crime watch dot com, did you know
22:15
Speaker 1: the judge as she lowered her bond to twelve thousand,
22:18
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars at me, she only had to put
22:20
Speaker 1: up ash I know and it you know what makes
22:24
Speaker 1: me sick about it is look at the charges that
22:26
Speaker 1: she's been charged with and maybe they don't have the
22:28
Speaker 1: evidence yet, but she needs to be charged with rape.
22:31
Speaker 1: I mean, these are charges that she's going to get
22:34
Speaker 1: a lower bond, she's gonna get out, she's gonna get probation.
22:37
Speaker 1: But I don't understand why she has not been charged
22:41
Speaker 1: with rape and other felonies that will ensure she doesn't
22:45
Speaker 1: just walk out and bond and go go do about
22:47
Speaker 1: her marry business and keep having these inappropriate relationships. I
22:50
Speaker 1: don't get it either. Ashley Willcot with me, juvenile judge
22:54
Speaker 1: and child advocate. Ashley, The thing is this, I've prosecuted
22:59
Speaker 1: many a kid ace without DNA and it can be done.
23:04
Speaker 1: You don't think a jury is going to believe it
23:06
Speaker 1: when they see these photos and you know they've got
23:09
Speaker 1: to be text messages, explicit text messages to show to
23:13
Speaker 1: a jury to support a rape claim or childless station
23:16
Speaker 1: claiming not only that, what was she taking him out
23:19
Speaker 1: to do science experiments at eleven o'clock at nine? Do
23:22
Speaker 1: you have a child who says that that she had
23:24
Speaker 1: sex with him? There's no reason to not believe a
23:28
Speaker 1: fourteen year old child that says this. That's where you
23:30
Speaker 1: start and go from there back to Dr Bethany Marshall,
23:33
Speaker 1: Ellie Psychoanlist. Dr Marshall. I don't understand why when someone
23:38
Speaker 1: seemingly has it all. She's a twenty six year old brunette,
23:42
Speaker 1: beauty again, she's I see this picture of her out
23:46
Speaker 1: in the ocean. Uh, maybe on a boat or a kayak.
23:53
Speaker 1: She's holding up a giant fish. She's got on a swimsuit.
23:57
Speaker 1: She's beautiful, healthy, athletic, and a happy marriage to a
24:03
Speaker 1: handsome young guy. The world in front of them. Why
24:08
Speaker 1: be a predator on a little boy? You know, female
24:12
Speaker 1: predators are very complicated. It's a very complicated disorder, and
24:17
Speaker 1: I tend to think of the pathology as emanating from
24:21
Speaker 1: the wish to be admired by somebody over whom they
24:25
Speaker 1: have complete control. So with with male predators, sex is
24:30
Speaker 1: the primary driver of the molestation. With female predators, the
24:36
Speaker 1: emotional gratification or exploiting the child for emotional gratification is
24:41
Speaker 1: the driver, and then sex comes afterwards. That's why I
24:45
Speaker 1: feel that she's going to become preoccupied with him and
24:48
Speaker 1: unable to break away. And that's that's further proof for
24:52
Speaker 1: me that she needs to be behind bars for that
24:54
Speaker 1: child's sake, because he needs to know that she is
24:59
Speaker 1: locked up in a way and cannot get a hold
25:01
Speaker 1: of him, or he's going to feel very vulnerable out
25:04
Speaker 1: there in the world. This woman does not want an
25:07
Speaker 1: age mate. It doesn't matter how handsome for firefight er
25:11
Speaker 1: husband is and what a great life they have. He
25:13
Speaker 1: has a voice and he has a mind, and he
25:15
Speaker 1: can stand up to her, and she's not going to
25:17
Speaker 1: be the kind of person who wants that. Alan. What's
25:20
Speaker 1: our tip line number? Nancy. Police are asking that if
25:23
Speaker 1: you know of any additional potential victims of this teacher,
25:27
Speaker 1: contact the Sheriff's Department's Child Exploitation Unit at three six
25:33
Speaker 1: three two three three seven four. Rushing around all day,
25:40
Speaker 1: working hard to support your family, then suddenly you realize
25:44
Speaker 1: something's off. Your daughter didn't make it to dance class.
25:48
Speaker 1: Her nanny was supposed to take her. What went wrong?
25:51
Speaker 1: You start calling around, and then you are trapped in
25:56
Speaker 1: a nightmare when you learn your children have been killed.
26:05
Speaker 1: It sounds like a nightmare, but it's true. That's what
26:11
Speaker 1: is unfolding in a court of law right now. An
26:15
Speaker 1: anguished mother breaks down in tears. She comes home to
26:21
Speaker 1: find her children dead in the bath. She ran home
26:26
Speaker 1: in a panic with her third child, Nessie when she
26:29
Speaker 1: discovers Lucia had not made it to dance class, her husband,
26:36
Speaker 1: hard working executive, was away on business. And then she
26:40
Speaker 1: makes the horrific discovery. It is now playing out in
26:46
Speaker 1: a court of law. Joining me right now. Crime Stories
26:49
Speaker 1: investigative reporter John Limley, forensic expert, death singing investigator Joe
26:55
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and l a psychoanalyst Dr Bethany Marshall. I
27:00
Speaker 1: remember when this happened, John, refresh my recollection of the facts.
27:05
Speaker 1: What happened exactly? Well, if we go back to sort
27:09
Speaker 1: of paint the scene, for the listener to say that
27:13
Speaker 1: Marina krim Nancy loved being a mom would be a
27:18
Speaker 1: huge understatement. She actually started and kept a blog of
27:23
Speaker 1: her family's activity. She titled her blog Life with the
27:27
Speaker 1: Little crim Kids, and in it, six year old Lucia,
27:32
Speaker 1: three year old Nessie, and two year old Leo are
27:36
Speaker 1: the stars. There are entries detailing ice skating outings, trips
27:40
Speaker 1: to BlackBerry patches, and gingerbread decorating contests, all in the
27:45
Speaker 1: family's Manhattan apartment. What shines through most is the sheer
27:50
Speaker 1: delight that Marina takes in being a mom. She loves
27:54
Speaker 1: these children but even super moms can use a little
27:58
Speaker 1: help now and then. So after Leo came along, Marina
28:02
Speaker 1: hired a nanny, her name yos Lyin or Tega, and
28:07
Speaker 1: Yosslin would take the girls to ballet and art classes.
28:11
Speaker 1: She blended into the crim household. Even when she was
28:16
Speaker 1: with her own friends and family, Yosslin would bring out
28:20
Speaker 1: photos of the kids as if they were her own.
28:22
Speaker 1: This makes what happened all the more inexplicable and Nancy
28:28
Speaker 1: to be perfectly honest chilling at the at the very least.
28:31
Speaker 1: It's a typical fall day. Marina leaves Lucia and Leo
28:35
Speaker 1: in Ortega's care while she takes NeSSI to a swimming
28:39
Speaker 1: lesson at the nearby y m c A. Marina, as
28:43
Speaker 1: you pointed out, made plans to meet Ortega at a
28:47
Speaker 1: dance class for Lucia at five thirty that afternoon. Now,
28:51
Speaker 1: Ortega didn't arrive on time, so after a while, Marina
28:55
Speaker 1: grows concerned, and so she returns home to check on
28:59
Speaker 1: the n and the children. When she arrives, she discovers
29:03
Speaker 1: that the lights are off in the apartment, which puzzles her.
29:07
Speaker 1: It seems like no one's home, so she goes back
29:10
Speaker 1: down to the lobby and she asks the doorman if
29:13
Speaker 1: he's seen the nanny the children seeing them leave. He
29:17
Speaker 1: hadn't seen a thing, so Marina goes back up to
29:20
Speaker 1: the apartment. She goes room by room and finally comes
29:25
Speaker 1: to the bathroom. It's dark as well, so she flicks
29:29
Speaker 1: on the light and what she sees defies imagination as
29:35
Speaker 1: to how a human comprehends this. She finds her two children,
29:40
Speaker 1: Lucia and Leo, stabbed to death, stacked one on top
29:44
Speaker 1: of the other in the bathtub. Marina and her daughter
29:49
Speaker 1: Nessie right there by her side, walk in just as Ortega,
29:53
Speaker 1: sitting on the floor, is stabbing herself in the throat
29:58
Speaker 1: in what authorities believe as an attempt to take her
30:01
Speaker 1: own life. The children's father and Marina's husband, worked for CNBC,
30:07
Speaker 1: Kevin Krim. He was just returning home from a West
30:10
Speaker 1: Coast business trip when police stopped him as he got
30:14
Speaker 1: off the plane there at jfk uh International Airport and
30:18
Speaker 1: had to share with him the tragic news. I just overwhelmed.
30:25
Speaker 1: I remember exactly when this happened. Dr Bethany Marshall, l
30:31
Speaker 1: a psychoanalyst, you were with me. I think that night
30:35
Speaker 1: on the air and the story was just so overwhelming,
30:40
Speaker 1: I could hardly report the facts. And uh, I don't
30:46
Speaker 1: know how you make a comeback from that. The woman Ortega,
30:50
Speaker 1: the babysitter, had never shown any signs of mental illness.
30:55
Speaker 1: She had been recommended to the mom by the mom's
30:59
Speaker 1: own sister. She had gotten every advantage from the family.
31:06
Speaker 1: She had never been late, she never even asked for
31:10
Speaker 1: a raise. They paid her to fly home on vacations
31:13
Speaker 1: to Dominican Republic. And uh I, I did not see
31:18
Speaker 1: it coming at all. The family did not see it coming.
31:22
Speaker 1: There were no signs. Dr Bethany. You know. Not only that,
31:26
Speaker 1: but the crim family went and visited Ortega's sister and
31:30
Speaker 1: stayed with her in the Dominican Republic. So this family
31:35
Speaker 1: was the Crims were very invested in Ortega and in
31:38
Speaker 1: her family. I think that what was happening is this
31:42
Speaker 1: nanny had pathological simmering resentment towards the children and the parents,
31:48
Speaker 1: for their wealth, for their love, for the good life
31:51
Speaker 1: they lad. And this is what we often see with
31:53
Speaker 1: caretakers that abused children. They're actually envious of the children
31:58
Speaker 1: for having love and care. That's really at the bottom
32:01
Speaker 1: of it, and her Ortego's own son had recently come
32:05
Speaker 1: to the United States. She was having a hard time
32:07
Speaker 1: paying for his tuition. Um, Marina Krim had given the
32:12
Speaker 1: nanny extra work. I was paying her a hundred dollars
32:15
Speaker 1: a week, I believe, to do some extra lighthousekeeping. And
32:18
Speaker 1: it sounds like this was a turning point for this
32:20
Speaker 1: housekeeper who became increasingly enraged at the workload. Rather than
32:26
Speaker 1: appreciating what Marina Krim was trying to do for her,
32:29
Speaker 1: she twisted it all in her mind is like an insult,
32:32
Speaker 1: and here she was having to do more and more,
32:35
Speaker 1: and so I think this rageful attack towards the children
32:40
Speaker 1: was out of envy resentment. And I don't believe she
32:42
Speaker 1: was trying to kill herself. By the by the way
32:44
Speaker 1: Nancy this stabbing herself in the neck, I think it
32:47
Speaker 1: was just a plea for sympathy. Um as Marina was
32:50
Speaker 1: coming home. I think that's that's what she did to
32:53
Speaker 1: try to make herself look crazy and get out of
32:55
Speaker 1: the crime. You know. To Joseph Scott, Morgan, forensics expert
32:59
Speaker 1: professor for Ensics Jackson State University, Joe Scott, I'm just
33:03
Speaker 1: thinking about this nanny who had never exhibited any size
33:08
Speaker 1: of mental illness at all. Her son, her seventeen year
33:12
Speaker 1: old son, had come to live with her Um. She
33:15
Speaker 1: had recently lost her apartment and it moved in with
33:18
Speaker 1: her sister. She asked for extra work. The mom gave
33:22
Speaker 1: her lighthouse keeping and was paying her extra money. The
33:27
Speaker 1: resentment apparently just boiled over. What about the scene would
33:34
Speaker 1: we be able to what evidence would be able to
33:36
Speaker 1: use to determine whether it was premeditated or an act
33:40
Speaker 1: of of insanity. I gotta say, Nancy, the fact that
33:45
Speaker 1: she didn't do this in some random location in the home.
33:50
Speaker 1: Both of these babies are in the bathroom, in specifically
33:53
Speaker 1: in the bathtub, which gives me an indication that these
33:57
Speaker 1: children were taken there for that specific purpose, in an
34:01
Speaker 1: area that's probably smaller than the rest of the house,
34:04
Speaker 1: that's confined, that's in an area that if you wanted
34:07
Speaker 1: to clean up, you actually could. We see this with
34:09
Speaker 1: a lot of killers. Um, and the fact that the
34:14
Speaker 1: brutality of this thing is just almost unimaginable. We talked
34:18
Speaker 1: about what the mother witness when she walked in. You
34:21
Speaker 1: can just imagine this bathroom is painted in in the
34:25
Speaker 1: blood of your children. Uh. This little boy, his name
34:29
Speaker 1: was Leo. Uh he was he was uh stabbed or
34:34
Speaker 1: cut at least five times. Now he's a little one. Now.
34:38
Speaker 1: We talked about Lucia. Her her name, by the way,
34:40
Speaker 1: what they called her was Lulu Um and Uh, she
34:44
Speaker 1: fought back, Nancy, she fought back this This woman inflicted
34:50
Speaker 1: what's estimated between twenty and thirty sharp force injuries on
34:53
Speaker 1: this little girl. Uh. That's a sign of anger and
34:57
Speaker 1: hatred and rage. And typically we refer to that as
35:02
Speaker 1: as an overkill event, that you don't need that much
35:05
Speaker 1: to kill somebody that this is and Dr Bethany can
35:08
Speaker 1: really speak to this, probably, but there's a lot of
35:10
Speaker 1: anger being directed at these children. And you know, Uh,
35:15
Speaker 1: this woman stabbing herself in the neck. I don't know
35:17
Speaker 1: what to make of that. She obviously didn't do a
35:20
Speaker 1: very good job. She's still among the living. But uh,
35:23
Speaker 1: just just what she did to these children just destroyed it.
35:26
Speaker 1: Not not to mention what she's done to to the
35:28
Speaker 1: mom and the daddy and this little kid that's left
35:31
Speaker 1: behind as well, That she just ripped these people's lives
35:33
Speaker 1: to shreds. You know, the prosecutor said, it will never
35:36
Speaker 1: be known why the nanny Ortega kill the children, but
35:42
Speaker 1: I do know this. The prosecutor insists it was intentional. Listen,
35:50
Speaker 1: this defendant intentionally and savagely slaughtered Krim and Leo Krim,
35:57
Speaker 1: murdering them in the family's apartment in the bathroom of
36:01
Speaker 1: their apartment at fifty seven West seventy fifth Street here
36:05
Speaker 1: in New York County. Lucilla was known as Lulu and
36:11
Speaker 1: she was six years old. Leo had just turned too
36:17
Speaker 1: and the defendant, this defendant, who was at the time
36:22
Speaker 1: their fifty year old babysitter, was entrusted with their care,
36:29
Speaker 1: and she viciously and violently attacked Lulu and Leo when
36:33
Speaker 1: she was alone in the apartment with them, when she
36:36
Speaker 1: knew that their mother was out of the apartment. When
36:39
Speaker 1: she knew that their mother was with their three year
36:40
Speaker 1: old sister, and she was alone with the children in
36:43
Speaker 1: the apartment. As I said, the defendant waited until she
36:47
Speaker 1: was sure that the mother was out of the apartment
36:50
Speaker 1: before she returned to the apartment with Lulu and Leo.
36:52
Speaker 1: That afternoon, took knives from the kitchen and repeatedly slashed
36:59
Speaker 1: and stabbed them in the bathroom of the apartment, laying
37:02
Speaker 1: their bodies on top of one another to lead out
37:05
Speaker 1: in the bathtub. The evidence will show that the defendant
37:12
Speaker 1: returned to the apartment on October two thousand and twelve
37:16
Speaker 1: with Leo and Lulu just before four pm, and that
37:21
Speaker 1: their mother, Marina Krim, frantically returned to the apartment at
37:26
Speaker 1: about five twenty in the afternoon looking for her children.
37:31
Speaker 1: In the approximately ninety minutes that the defendant was alone
37:35
Speaker 1: in that apartment with Lulu and Leo, the ninety minutes
37:39
Speaker 1: during which the Krims trusted her to care for and
37:42
Speaker 1: protect their children, the defendant brutally butchered both children, splitting
37:49
Speaker 1: their throats. The forensic evidence will prove to you that
37:55
Speaker 1: although Leo two years old, was too small to struggle,
37:59
Speaker 1: Lulu six years old, and she fought back. She knew
38:03
Speaker 1: what was happening, She understood what the defendant was doing,
38:06
Speaker 1: and she fought to live. But the defendant was bigger
38:11
Speaker 1: and stronger, and the defendant repaid Lulu's resistance with almost
38:16
Speaker 1: thirty different stab and slash wounds to her body and
38:19
Speaker 1: her neck. Lulu also sustained cuts and abrasions to her
38:25
Speaker 1: hands and arms that you will learn are consistent with
38:28
Speaker 1: her defending herself, evidence of her fight to live. Both
38:35
Speaker 1: Lulu and Leo suffered such severe and deep neck wounds
38:38
Speaker 1: that the first emergency are officers unseen thought that they
38:42
Speaker 1: may have been decapitated. Ladies and gentlemen, what I have
38:47
Speaker 1: just told you, there's the undisputed truth that this defendant
38:52
Speaker 1: killed those children on October twelve, That this defendant overcame
38:58
Speaker 1: Lulu's resistance and killed her as well as her brother.
39:04
Speaker 1: That this defendant slipped the throats of Lulu and Leo Krim.
39:08
Speaker 1: That is the undisputed truth. That is the These are
39:12
Speaker 1: the undisputed facts in this case, and these are the
39:15
Speaker 1: facts and the evidence that will prove to you beyond
39:18
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt that the defendant intentionally murdered Lulu and
39:23
Speaker 1: Leo Krim on October two, thou twelve, That she knew
39:28
Speaker 1: what she was doing when she killed them, and that
39:31
Speaker 1: she knew that killing them was wrong. The defense in
39:33
Speaker 1: this case is the devil made me do it, defended,
39:37
Speaker 1: claiming that she but the last thing she remembers before
39:42
Speaker 1: waking up in the hospital after the murders, is the
39:46
Speaker 1: devil taking her brother body. To make it more heinous,
39:51
Speaker 1: the mom has to take the stand in front of
39:54
Speaker 1: a jury and relive the moment she finds her children
39:59
Speaker 1: dead in the bathtub in the family home. Yes, she did, Nancy,
40:02
Speaker 1: and it was very emotional. But the judge wouldn't allow
40:06
Speaker 1: cameras to be on during Marina Crim's testimony. But this
40:09
Speaker 1: CBS reporter was in court and tells us what she said.
40:13
Speaker 1: A defense attorney asked Krim about talking to police after
40:16
Speaker 1: the murders. Krim grew upset and yelled, I don't remember
40:20
Speaker 1: what I said that day. I was grieving in a
40:23
Speaker 1: massive way. Krim testified a few weeks before the murders.
40:26
Speaker 1: She saw the nanny quote looking at me with this
40:29
Speaker 1: glare on her face that was just pure evil, a
40:31
Speaker 1: really weird, mean look. As Krim left the stand after
40:35
Speaker 1: finishing her testimony, she screamed at Ortega, you're evil and
40:39
Speaker 1: you like this, You're getting pleasure. Back to John Limley,
40:44
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, what motive, if any, have we
40:49
Speaker 1: been able to determine? Not that motive has to be
40:51
Speaker 1: proved trial, but what do authorities think played into this? Well,
40:58
Speaker 1: not only authority investigators, but prosecutors and defense attorneys agree
41:04
Speaker 1: on the fact that Jocelin Ortega repeatedly stabbed and killed
41:09
Speaker 1: these two young children in her care. In the question
41:13
Speaker 1: in court now is why and whether that even matters.
41:17
Speaker 1: Opening statements in Ortega's murder trial have begun in Manhattan
41:23
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and Ortega stands accused of repeatedly stabbing to
41:28
Speaker 1: death these two children. In opening statements, prosecutors detailed the
41:34
Speaker 1: evidence surrounding the gory killings in which the two children
41:38
Speaker 1: something I had neglected to mention from the outset, were
41:41
Speaker 1: stabbed so many times that they were nearly decapitated and
41:45
Speaker 1: left to bleed in a bathtub. But prosecutor Courtney Groves
41:50
Speaker 1: has told jurors that they would not try to prove
41:53
Speaker 1: a motive in the case, so rather than counter the
41:57
Speaker 1: evidence of Ortega's role in the killing, defense attorneys argued
42:01
Speaker 1: that Ortego was suffering from depression, was hearing voices, disassociating
42:07
Speaker 1: from reality, and experiencing hallucinations. Yasil Rotega atter about five
42:15
Speaker 1: PM as a result of mental disease of defect lack
42:19
Speaker 1: substantial capacity to know or appreciate the nature and consequences
42:24
Speaker 1: of her acts of her conduct. The evidence will show
42:28
Speaker 1: that Ms Ortega suffered on that date, at that time
42:31
Speaker 1: and before that date October from a chronic mental illness.
42:38
Speaker 1: The evidence will show that she has a corroborated history
42:41
Speaker 1: of hearing voices and dissociating from reality since the age
42:46
Speaker 1: of sixteen. The defense will show that she suffered from
42:50
Speaker 1: three discrete episodes of major depression disorder, psychotic thinking, dissociation,
42:59
Speaker 1: order to visual and commands hallucinations as halftile hallucinations. Well,
43:07
Speaker 1: if that's true, then to Dr Bethany Marshall, how came
43:10
Speaker 1: what no one had noticed it? I mean you think
43:12
Speaker 1: that mother would have kept Ortega on and she thought
43:15
Speaker 1: she was having ideations in that manner. Oh yeah, I
43:19
Speaker 1: I don't believe that she was hearing or seeing things
43:22
Speaker 1: that weren't there. I mean, it takes an enormous amount
43:24
Speaker 1: of energy and psychological organization to kill two young children.
43:30
Speaker 1: All right, You you have to really think about it.
43:32
Speaker 1: You have to be methodical, you have to know what
43:34
Speaker 1: you're doing. This is not a disorganized attack. This was
43:38
Speaker 1: an organized attack, which tells me that she was mentally together. Um. Also,
43:44
Speaker 1: when you're depressed, you have no no energy. So whenever
43:48
Speaker 1: people say, well, you know this guy went on a
43:51
Speaker 1: killing rampage because he was depressed, I'm like, No, depressed
43:54
Speaker 1: people lie in bed all day. They don't pick up
43:57
Speaker 1: guns and kill people. They don't stab a child to
43:59
Speaker 1: one to forty times. Um so no, I I just
44:03
Speaker 1: I don't believe that she was struggling with her mental health.
44:05
Speaker 1: I think she was struggling psychologically, but she was not
44:09
Speaker 1: with anger, with anger, with anger, because I mean, think
44:12
Speaker 1: about it, Dr Bethany. Here she is, um she can't
44:17
Speaker 1: afford her apartment. Apparently, she moves in with the sister.
44:21
Speaker 1: Her seventeen year old son joins her. She's been away
44:24
Speaker 1: from her family, she's broke, and she's living in an
44:29
Speaker 1: uh very wealthy home in Manhattan taking care of these children.
44:36
Speaker 1: And the mom isn't working. The dad as an executive.
44:39
Speaker 1: The mom works with the children all day long. She
44:41
Speaker 1: had been a teacher before she quit. And I think
44:45
Speaker 1: jealousy and resentment over somebody having more than you have.
44:51
Speaker 1: That's what I always tell the twins. Don't look don't
44:55
Speaker 1: look at what other people do, or have you think
44:58
Speaker 1: about what you're doing? Okay? And how you can make
45:03
Speaker 1: the best of what you have and count your blessings
45:06
Speaker 1: because you know, jealousy is all the fun you think
45:13
Speaker 1: they're having that is not necessarily true, you know, Bethanyone,
45:18
Speaker 1: we were growing up, we were dirt poor. Okay, my
45:21
Speaker 1: parents weren't like dogs. I didn't even know we were poor.
45:24
Speaker 1: We I thought we were perfectly happy, looking and commenting
45:29
Speaker 1: and being jealous of what other people have and resenting
45:34
Speaker 1: your lot. I think it just drove her over the
45:37
Speaker 1: agg I think it did too. There's a well known
45:39
Speaker 1: psychoanalyst psychiatrist here in southern California read Malloy, and he
45:43
Speaker 1: wrote a paper where he talked about the fact that
45:46
Speaker 1: if you look at any violent crime, jealousy envy are
45:51
Speaker 1: the basic motivators of all crimes. Jealousy is you're paying
45:56
Speaker 1: more at tension to somebody else than me. Envy is
46:00
Speaker 1: you have something that I want and I can't have,
46:03
Speaker 1: and I'm going to blot you out because of it.
46:05
Speaker 1: And so I imagine I sort of imagine this nanny
46:08
Speaker 1: going with the mother to buy let's say the kid's
46:11
Speaker 1: letters and thinking about her own child where maybe she
46:14
Speaker 1: can't afford clothing or looking at a beautiful meal on
46:17
Speaker 1: the table and thinking I wish I could be home
46:19
Speaker 1: cooking for my son. But what happens is that the
46:23
Speaker 1: feelings of longing turn into resentment, envy, hatred, and the
46:28
Speaker 1: wish to eradicate the object of one's NVC. In my field,
46:32
Speaker 1: that when we treat envious people, what we see is
46:35
Speaker 1: that they always want to eradicate and destroy the object
46:39
Speaker 1: of their envy. That's where envy ends up. Okay, you're
46:41
Speaker 1: totally messing with my head right now. You're totally to
46:46
Speaker 1: imagine that envy can take over your whole life. Yes,
46:53
Speaker 1: how do you conceal that all day long? When you
46:56
Speaker 1: work with somebody and yet you hate them? You know,
46:59
Speaker 1: I think I've used this term before with you. But
47:01
Speaker 1: but sometimes these these uh, homicidal people where what we
47:06
Speaker 1: call the mask of sanity. They they are adept at
47:11
Speaker 1: looking like they are like the rest of society. They
47:14
Speaker 1: are adept at looking like they are getting along. But
47:17
Speaker 1: it's kind of a false presentation that hides a very angry, sinister, pathological,
47:26
Speaker 1: unempathetic interior. And I think that's what that external persona
47:32
Speaker 1: cracked at some point and the inner monster came out
47:35
Speaker 1: she said to the cop at the time. According to
47:39
Speaker 1: the cop that the cops said she complained about her
47:43
Speaker 1: job and the way she was treated. See, the mom
47:47
Speaker 1: had no idea that there was anything wrong, yet she
47:51
Speaker 1: is complained. She takes time after she murders the children
47:54
Speaker 1: to complain about the way she was treated. Everybody to
47:58
Speaker 1: watch this as it unfold. You can't go for live
48:02
Speaker 1: coverage on crime online dot com, where we're streaming the
48:05
Speaker 1: trial live. She actually thought about complaining about her job
48:09
Speaker 1: after the murder's Bethany. I mean, that just proves what
48:13
Speaker 1: we're talking about that she's in a very what what
48:15
Speaker 1: I would call like a paranoid obsessional state, which what
48:21
Speaker 1: that means is that she had the delusion that this
48:25
Speaker 1: family was negatively affecting her well being. It was the
48:28
Speaker 1: family's fault that she didn't have enough money, It was
48:31
Speaker 1: Marina's fault that she couldn't pay for her child's school,
48:35
Speaker 1: that somehow everything got laid at the feet of the family,
48:38
Speaker 1: and there was nothing about her own agency, in her
48:41
Speaker 1: own life that she could claim responsibility for to give
48:46
Speaker 1: herself a better life. I mean, so resentful that she's
48:49
Speaker 1: complaining to the police officer. I mean, that's really out
48:53
Speaker 1: of control. She said, I had quote, I had to
48:57
Speaker 1: do everything and take care of the kids work. Does
49:00
Speaker 1: it maybe sit her only? And she wanted me to
49:03
Speaker 1: do everything. Five hours of cleaning, And what the mom
49:07
Speaker 1: is saying is that Ortega needed more money. So she said, Okay,
49:10
Speaker 1: you know, do an hour or two cleaning each day
49:12
Speaker 1: and I'll pay you more money. I mean, thinking she
49:15
Speaker 1: was helping, right, Nancy, Have you ever had a friend
49:17
Speaker 1: that the more you give to the friend and the
49:19
Speaker 1: more you do for them, the more resentful and angry
49:21
Speaker 1: they become towards you. You ever had that dynamic, I've
49:25
Speaker 1: I've had that with people where you're actually trying to
49:27
Speaker 1: help them out and every gift you give just stirs
49:30
Speaker 1: a presentment. And that's because they can't tolerate that maybe
49:34
Speaker 1: you have something better than them that you can offer
49:38
Speaker 1: to them. That that makes them very enraged. And I
49:41
Speaker 1: think that was the psychological situation for this nanny, that
49:44
Speaker 1: she couldn't stand that the family had a better life
49:48
Speaker 1: than she had. Basically she couldn't take it well. Of course,
49:51
Speaker 1: John Limley, Crimes Toys investigative reporter, the Defense of Joining
49:54
Speaker 1: tried to get all those statements thrown out. It didn't work.
49:58
Speaker 1: They are coming into evidence, John Linley, as I understand
50:00
Speaker 1: it correct. As they put it, Ortega's lack of the
50:04
Speaker 1: motive is evidence in itself that she suffers from untreated
50:09
Speaker 1: severe mental illness and belongs in mental healthcare rather than
50:13
Speaker 1: being behind prison prison bars. It's been more than five
50:18
Speaker 1: years now since Ortega was charged in the killings, and
50:21
Speaker 1: the crims have waited. As Ortega's attorney, Valerie Van Leer Greenberg,
50:27
Speaker 1: tried to convince the court that her client was mentally
50:30
Speaker 1: unfit to stand trial. After several competent competency hearings, Judge
50:36
Speaker 1: Gregory Caro has ruled that Ortego is indeed fit for trial.
50:40
Speaker 1: Go to crime online dot com to watch the trial
50:43
Speaker 1: as it occurs line Nancy. The parents, Kevin and Marina Krim,
50:48
Speaker 1: released a video just before the trial started, asking the
50:51
Speaker 1: public for positive thoughts and for financial support for the
50:55
Speaker 1: Lulu and Leo Fund. Hi, everyone for here to give
50:59
Speaker 1: you an update and to ask for your help. After
51:02
Speaker 1: five long years, the criminal trial in our case is
51:05
Speaker 1: getting started, and over the next few months, the story
51:09
Speaker 1: of Lulu and Leo and our whole family will be
51:11
Speaker 1: painfully in the news again. This trial will be very
51:15
Speaker 1: hard for us and for a lot of you. We
51:18
Speaker 1: feel like this community, all of you have been with
51:21
Speaker 1: us all along through this whole experience. Even if you
51:24
Speaker 1: never met Lulu Leo, you feel like you know them,
51:27
Speaker 1: you love them, and you're inspired by them like we are.
51:31
Speaker 1: So a lot of people have been asking us how
51:33
Speaker 1: they can help, how they can support us during this
51:36
Speaker 1: really horrible time, and we thought about it and we
51:42
Speaker 1: realized that we're gonna handle this the way we've handled everything.
51:48
Speaker 1: We're going to focus on the positive and the goodness
51:52
Speaker 1: that's come out of all this. When you hear about
51:55
Speaker 1: us on the news or we come up in conversation,
52:00
Speaker 1: we want you to tell people about the Lou and
52:03
Speaker 1: Leo Fund and the Choose Creativity Initiative and the ten
52:06
Speaker 1: Principles of Creativity. This is the legacy of Lou and Leo,
52:12
Speaker 1: and this is what matters. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing
52:17
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,