Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Paul McCartney's Music Journey: 1974-1980 [Episode 243]

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Paul McCartney's Music Journey: 1974-1980 [Episode 243] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We're totally booked rock and roll.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: I mean gotta leave you. You're reading. Little Hands says
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: it's time to rock and roll, d roll up.
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  Speaker 1: I totally booked. Welcome back to book Don Rock, the
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  Speaker 1: podcast for those about to read and rock. Find the
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  Speaker 1: podcast at bookdonrock dot com. Every episode in audio and video,
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  Speaker 1: exclusive video highlights, and the latest rockbook releases. My guest
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  Speaker 1: is Alan Cosin. He and Adrian Sinclair are the authors
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  Speaker 1: of The McCartney Legacy Volume two nineteen seventy four to
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  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. Volume one covers the years nineteen sixty nine
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  Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy three, while Volume two continues to paint
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  Speaker 1: the portrait of one of the world's greatest musicians, his
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  Speaker 1: work post Beatles, and his life from nineteen seventy four
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  Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty. To hear a playlist to Paul McCartney's
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  Speaker 1: best songs from seventy four to eighty, head over to
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  Speaker 1: the show notes page. Alan, Welcome to the podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Alan, You.
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  Speaker 1: And Adrian talked to many former members of Wings for
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  Speaker 1: this book, including a few who rarely give interviews, to
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  Speaker 1: tell the story of Paul during this period. Talk about
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  Speaker 1: who you interviewed in the previous interviews you did with
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  Speaker 1: people behind the scenes, like engineers, producers.
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  Speaker 2: Well, for both these books, we spoke to everyone we
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  Speaker 2: could find who worked with Paul. I mean, there are
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  Speaker 2: thousands of people more who've worked with Paul. We tried
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  Speaker 2: to get the most important people, and obviously that would
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  Speaker 2: include the surviving members of Wings, and it wasn't always
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  Speaker 2: easy because in this volume, you know, Wings had sort
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  Speaker 2: of fallen apart at the end of Volume one, right
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  Speaker 2: before they went to record Band on the Run, and
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  Speaker 2: Paul and Linda and Denny did that on their own,
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  Speaker 2: so they needed a new guitarist and a new drug.
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  Speaker 2: The guitarist, Jimmy McCulloch died sadly at a very young age,
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  Speaker 2: in maybe nineteen seventy six or seventy, well seventy seven.
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  Speaker 2: I believe he was in Wings until seventy seven. The
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  Speaker 2: drummer that they first got was Jeff Britten, who didn't
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  Speaker 2: last all that long but did some significant work. Especially
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  Speaker 2: this year they've released for the first time the one
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  Speaker 2: Hand Clapping Sessions, and Jeff was the drummer on that
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  Speaker 2: and he did excellent work. And I think that will
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  Speaker 2: help sort of restore his reputation because you know, a
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  Speaker 2: lot of people know Wings fans know is that he
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  Speaker 2: was sort of kicked out of the group during the
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  Speaker 2: recording of Venus and Mars, and they brought in Joe English.
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  Speaker 2: So Jeff hadn't given an interview for decades and we
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  Speaker 2: finally were able to convince him. Adrian in particular was
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  Speaker 2: and in fact they've become friends. So and Jeff provided
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  Speaker 2: us with his diary, which was very helpful in the
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  Speaker 2: first volume. Denny Siwell, Wing's first drummer also had a diary,
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  Speaker 2: or his wife did, and those really helped us establish
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  Speaker 2: sort of, you know, concrete timelines because when they went
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  Speaker 2: in the studio, it was in the diary, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: everything they did basically was it wasn't like a personal
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  Speaker 2: diary in that way. It was a diary of you know,
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  Speaker 2: professional engagements. And then Joe English became the drummer after Jeff.
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  Speaker 2: And the problem with Joe is that after the nineteen
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  Speaker 2: seventy five seventy six tour and then some work on
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  Speaker 2: London Town, he just got very homesick. Plus his wife
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  Speaker 2: was not happy living in London. So Paul offered to
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  Speaker 2: get the house all that stuff if she'd relocate. And
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  Speaker 2: she went there for a while and said, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just not I just don't like this. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: she was living in rural Georgia and that was the
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  Speaker 2: life she preferred. So she went back, got in a
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  Speaker 2: horrible car accident, and you know, so Joe is on
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  Speaker 2: the other side of the ocean and going back as
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  Speaker 2: much as he can, and he finally decided that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he really wanted to go back to the States, go
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  Speaker 2: back to Georgia, and he left as well. And when
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  Speaker 2: he did, he joined sort of well a few years later,
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  Speaker 2: joined a Christian community and basically put his rock and
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  Speaker 2: roll life behind him and didn't want to talk about it,
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  Speaker 2: didn't want to remember those days any of that stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And we finally got him basically a few days before
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  Speaker 2: the book was due, and we had to sort of
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  Speaker 2: go back. I mean, we had found interviews with him
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  Speaker 2: from the time which we used, and we found a
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  Speaker 2: few interviews he had done for the TV station of
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  Speaker 2: the Christian community that he lives in, and we use those,
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  Speaker 2: but we really wanted to talk to him, and when
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  Speaker 2: we finally got him, he still was very reluctant to
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  Speaker 2: talk about his time in Wings, but we got him
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  Speaker 2: to confirm some things and to give us some statements
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  Speaker 2: about certain important things that they went through, and we
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  Speaker 2: sort of revised the book on the eve of submitting
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  Speaker 2: it to accommodate Joe.
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  Speaker 1: How did you get him to open up at least
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  Speaker 1: just a little bit at least? What was it? Persistence?
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  Speaker 1: Did feel comfortable after a while?
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  Speaker 2: It was persistence. I don't think he ever was totally comfortable,
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  Speaker 2: And you know, he really just didn't, you know, because
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  Speaker 2: the whole world of rock, you know, people associated you know, sex,
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  Speaker 2: drugs and rock and roll and the life he's living now.
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  Speaker 2: He doesn't want to even think about those times. So
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  Speaker 2: those aspects of it we didn't talk to him about.
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  Speaker 2: We tried to talk about really just the music making,
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  Speaker 2: which from our point of view is the most important
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  Speaker 2: thing anyway. You know. Also, we spoke to people that
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  Speaker 2: maybe no one would have heard of, like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: designers that like Steve Stephen Thomas was designer who designed
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  Speaker 2: mpl's headquarters. MPL as Paul's company in London, oversees his
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  Speaker 2: publishing and everything about his career, and they bought a
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  Speaker 2: building in Soho Square which he wants Paul it entirely
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  Speaker 2: renovated and he had very specific ideas of what he
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  Speaker 2: wanted and hired these guys to do it, and then
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  Speaker 2: invited him up to Scotland and said, I want to
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  Speaker 2: build a studio in this particular former cowbarn and I
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  Speaker 2: have an idea to record a song which was Mull
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  Speaker 2: of Kintire and it was about Scotland and he wanted
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  Speaker 2: it to be recorded in Scotland and he wanted his
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  Speaker 2: studio on his farm to be there and he gave
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  Speaker 2: he gave Thomas one month to build this studio and
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  Speaker 2: he wanted it locally built. You know. He said, you
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  Speaker 2: know people here work very hard, a lot of them
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  Speaker 2: are out of work. Hire them to do this. He
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  Speaker 2: had like two eight hour shifts a day and they
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  Speaker 2: got it built in a month and recorded Mull of
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  Speaker 2: Kintire there. It's extraordinary.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, these are the stories that I love though. These
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  Speaker 1: are the people that tell stories that helped to round
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  Speaker 1: out these artists. For Paul, how he was as from
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  Speaker 1: in terms of how he was to work with work
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  Speaker 1: for what his work ethic was life like. There was
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  Speaker 1: an interesting quote from Lynda in the book where she
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  Speaker 1: talked about how he loved being around positivity, positive people,
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  Speaker 1: he want to be around negative you know. The things
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  Speaker 1: like that are interesting, just to find out a little
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  Speaker 1: bit more about Paul as an artist. In sixteen ninety
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  Speaker 1: seventy three, that first volume, that's a period where Paul's
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  Speaker 1: still trying to establish himself as a solo artist, not
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  Speaker 1: be remembered for just the Beatles. Where is he at
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  Speaker 1: in terms of how he's viewed by the media and
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  Speaker 1: the fans in that aspect. In nineteen seventy four.
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  Speaker 2: In the first volume, he was as you were, as
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  Speaker 2: you said, trying to sort of crawl out from the
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  Speaker 2: wreckage of the Beatles and re establish himself and it
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  Speaker 2: was difficult, you know. A lot of his albums took,
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  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of criticism and he felt this,
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  Speaker 2: you know, And finally at the end of that volume
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  Speaker 2: they record band on the Run, and Band on the
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  Speaker 2: Run finally brought him back to the status that he
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  Speaker 2: was used to, you know. So nineteen seventy four starts
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  Speaker 2: with Paul in a really good place, I don't think, well,
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  Speaker 2: band on the Run hadn't quite hit number one yet,
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  Speaker 2: but within the next year it would hit number one
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  Speaker 2: like three times on the Billboard charts, and that gave
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  Speaker 2: him a level of confidence that he had been looking
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  Speaker 2: for all through, you know, the period that was covered
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  Speaker 2: in volume one, and then it meant that he had
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  Speaker 2: to sort of maintain that and that was difficult because
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  Speaker 2: you know, Venus and Mars was not quite as well
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  Speaker 2: received as Band on the Run, and the album subsequently
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  Speaker 2: took lots of critical barbs well, so you know, it
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  Speaker 2: was difficult. But the thing about Paul is that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he he has very open ears for one thing. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: he listens very closely to what's going on in the
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  Speaker 2: whole music world. He doesn't just assume, okay, I am
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  Speaker 2: Paul McCartney and my way or the highway. He listens.
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  Speaker 2: And so at the beginning of the book we have
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  Speaker 2: sort of the end of the sort of glam rock period,
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  Speaker 2: and by the end of the book, punk is coming
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  Speaker 2: in and going out and disco is coming in, and
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  Speaker 2: he embraced all of those styles and incorporated them into
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  Speaker 2: his music without losing his own musical personality. So you know,
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  Speaker 2: he just was intent on staying current and he understood that,
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  Speaker 2: you know, unlike during the Beatles, times where they were
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  Speaker 2: always the leaders. Now he had to sort of listen
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  Speaker 2: to what's going on, and he freely took ideas from
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  Speaker 2: all over the place, you know, he went when he
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  Speaker 2: was he took Wings to Nashville for sort of a
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  Speaker 2: break in period, and while they were there they went
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  Speaker 2: to concerts. They saw David Bowie, and in his nineteen
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  Speaker 2: seventy four tour, Bowie used a brass section, and Paul
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  Speaker 2: had earlier seen The Stones in New York during a
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  Speaker 2: break on an earlier Wings tour and they used the
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  Speaker 2: brass section too, So again thinking okay, brass section, interesting idea,
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  Speaker 2: he went to see Led Zeppelin in nineteen seventy five,
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  Speaker 2: and first of all, they had an incredible sound rig,
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  Speaker 2: unlike anything he was used to seeing in concert. So
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  Speaker 2: he hired the company that did their sound rig and
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  Speaker 2: had them build something even more spectacular for Wings American tour.
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  Speaker 2: I mean that at the time was like the biggest
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  Speaker 2: kind of you know, technical tour that had gone out yet,
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  Speaker 2: you know. And at the same time, also from the
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  Speaker 2: Led Zeppelin show, he noticed that they had an acoustic
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  Speaker 2: set within the middle of their show, and so he said, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's a good idea. So when Wings went out in
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  Speaker 2: seventy five to Australia and then later to America in
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  Speaker 2: seventy six, he had, you know, a rock section first,
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  Speaker 2: then stopped hav an acoustic set, play Yesterday, Blackbird, various things,
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  Speaker 2: and then back to the full band. And that was
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  Speaker 2: an idea that basically had roots in him seeing this
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  Speaker 2: Led Zeppelin show at Earl's Court in London.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he also followed the top forty right, would
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  Speaker 1: always pay close attention who was in the top forty right. Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's that is interesting. Like you said, yeah, he's with
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  Speaker 1: the Beatles. He wasn't. They were setting there the trends
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: and now he's in a different position. But he's not
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  Speaker 1: like you said. He also doesn't have that ego like, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I'm Paul McCartney. I'll just whatever I write people are
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: gonna love. But my question though, is what was the
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  Speaker 1: difference with Band on the Run as opposed to the
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  Speaker 1: previous work that he was doing as a solo artist
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  Speaker 1: that was not catching on with you know, the type
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  Speaker 1: of audience a Band on the Run did.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's hard to say, you know, with
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  Speaker 2: the first album he recorded that on his own, partly
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  Speaker 2: in his house, partly at EMI and other studios, but
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  Speaker 2: playing all the instruments himself, and people complained that it
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: was a little too homespun, even though it had maybe
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  Speaker 2: I'm Amazed on it, which is one of his most
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  Speaker 2: enduring tracks. So then he went to New York and
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  Speaker 2: recorded ram and had session musicians, had an orchestra, you know,
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  Speaker 2: really focused on it being a polished record, unlike the
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  Speaker 2: first McCartney album, and the reaction was, well, this is
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: way too slick. So then he gets he wants a
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: band because he wants to tour, so he puts together
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: the first iteration of Wings. They only released rehearsed for
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: like two or three days before going to the studio,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: and they did Wildlife pretty quickly, and the criticism of
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: that was that it was a little too ramshackle. Well, okay,
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  Speaker 2: you know, now he's a little dispirited. Red Rose Speedway
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: kind of took a long time to make because they
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: went on tour in between. And it's hard to characterize
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: that album because it was supposed to be a double
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: album that would show Wings as a band, and Emi
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: basically forced him to make it a single album, which
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: made it more of a solo McCartney album, because a
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: lot of the tracks that were thrown off it were
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: things that other band members were singing and or you know,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: things like that. So band on the Run, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I think part of what happened was, first of all,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: he had an extraordinary collection of songs for that. You know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: band on the Run itself is really quite a dramatic piece,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: and it had its roots in a meeting where they
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: were discussing the breakup of Apple, and it was you know,
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  Speaker 2: they had to attend and none of them liked going
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: to business meetings, and you know he's sitting there writing,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: you know, if I ever get out of here when
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  Speaker 2: you know, first lineup on the run. So you know,
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  Speaker 2: he had that, and he had jet and Missus vans
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  Speaker 2: built nineteen eighty five. I mean, he just had an
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  Speaker 2: exceptional number of really good tunes. But he also had
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  Speaker 2: a special impetus to make that a great album, which
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: is that, on the eve of their trip to Legos, Nigeria,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: where he wanted to record this for very reasons, Denny Siwell,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: the drummer, and Henry McCulloch, the lead guitarist, quit, so
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: it was just the three of them, and you know
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Paul has There's an aspect of Paul's personality which can
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: be summarized as I'll show you in a way. You know,
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  Speaker 2: his career after the Beatles was partly you know, I'll
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: show you I'm not going to just stop. I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to keep going and I'm going to do my thing.
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  Speaker 2: And now he's in Legos, Nigeria with just the three
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: of them. He's doing the drums himself, He's doing a
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: lot of the stuff himself, and he wanted now we
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: had two groups of people to show the Beatles and
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: the first iteration of Wings, it's like, okay, you know
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: you're not going to leave me and think I'm not
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: going to do a great album. I'm going to do
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  Speaker 2: the best album we've done. And that drive, I think,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: really pushed him to make it an exceptionally good at
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  Speaker 2: album and it worked. I mean, he always it's not
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: like he didn't always want to make exceptionally good album,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: but here he had that extra impetus of proving himself
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: when other people around him had sort of given up
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: on the idea of Wings.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Book on Rock podcast will be back after this Patience Boys.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: All good things to those who wait, you mentioned Jet.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: One of the early stories in the book is about Jet,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: how the record label wanted to release it as a single,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: but Paul wasn't convinced it was a good single. They
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: actually had to convince him. Al Curry from Capitol Records
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: had to convince Paul. Why was he opposed to her?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't so much that you didn't think it
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: would be a good single. Is that he didn't think
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: singles should be taken off albums.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And this was where time was outpacing him a little
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: bit because in the early sixties, you know, the Beatles
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: had that policy, we keep singles and albums separate, and
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: that was actually pretty common in Britain among British groups.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: You know, they released singles, they released albums, and you know,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: rarely the Twain should meet. It did in a few
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: cases with the Beatles, because you know, obviously the title
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: songs of Hard Day's Night and Help were going to
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: be on those albums, you know, and there were some
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: other times, you know, Yellow Submarine, Off Revolver or things
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: like that. But he generally speaking liked the idea of
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: keeping albums and singles separate, and in fact, the British
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: version of Band on the Run does not have Helen
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Wheels on it because that was a single, and al
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Corey called him the first time about that and Paul said, okay, okay,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I'll put the song on the album, but only on
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: the American release of the album, not on the British one.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So Helen Wheels went on there. And the next thing
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Paul knew al Corey wanted to release Jet and he
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: had to persuade Paul that, you know, look, our experience
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: is that when we take a single from the album,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: it really helped sell the album, and that was persuasive
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: to Paul, and he let him do it. The problem
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: was that, you know, it's a fairly long song, not
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: quite as long as hey, Jude, but you know, radio
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: liked it, maybe a minute shorter, and radio stations were
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: doing their own edits, and so Capital did an edit,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: and for the one and only time, Paul didn't feel
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: he needed to hear the edit before it went out,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: But then he was in La driving along and he
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: heard the edit on the radio. Yeah. Edit, you know,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the edit really is a pig's dinner. I don't know
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: if you've heard it, but.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: No, but edits drive me mad because I just love
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the song as it was intended to be.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he called. You know, it was one
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: of these great scenes where you know, he calls his
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: his manager at MPL in London. They call Capitol Record
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: and called the guys. Well, Paul's in la and he's
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: on the phone to us and he's heard this track.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Any thinks it's awful, and al Korey was able to say, well,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: we don't know what Paul actually heard, whether it's our
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: edit or a radio station edit. So we'll tell him
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: it's a radio station edit. But thereafter Paul listened to
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: all of the edits before they went out. The Band
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: on the Run was edited and other other songs subsequently.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: That's a great story. Let me roll it as one
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: of my favorite Paul McCartney deep tracks. It's one of
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: my favorites, and that's on Band on the Run. Great song,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: great song. There's a visit from Yoko that Paul Linda
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: get in late March of seventy four, an unexpected visit.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: You talk about that visit and what was discussed and
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: how it sparked a jam session with Paul and John.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yoko went to London visited Paul and Linda. And this
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: is not a very well documented visit, you know, Paul.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: We only found out about it really because Paul mentioned
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: it in passing in an interview and we began to
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: sort of put things together because we were trying to
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: figure out how this trip to la that Paul and
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Linda took that ended up in that gym, you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: came about. And it turned we thought maybe Paul went
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: to New York to visit the Eastmans, which he did regularly.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: The Eastman's were Linda's parents, and Lee Eastman and John Eastman,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Linda's father and brother, were Paul's managers and lawyers. So
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: it turned out that Yoko went there and Paul asked,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: you know, what's going on with John? Because John was
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: living in Los Angeles with May Pang and working out there,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: and he was getting in to all kinds of trouble
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: if he happened to drink too much in public. A
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: lot of famous stories about that.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: The last weekend that lasted a year.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, a year and a half. Yeah, but you
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: know he would do things like get drunk and heckle
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: the smothers brothers and you know, get thrown out of
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: the troubadour that kind, and that would get into the papers, obviously,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: So Paul wanted to know what's going on, had a
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: heart to heart with Yoko and asked, Yoko, you know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: would you want Paul that would be sorry, would you
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: want John back? And she said yes, but you know,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: he'd have to woo me. He'd have to you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: we'd have to go out on dates, he'd have to
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: get me flowers, all that stuff. And so Paul and
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Linda flew to La found out that John was in
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: a recording session working on Harry Nilsen's Pussycats album, went
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: to the studio and also at the same time, Stevie
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Wonder was working in that studio complex and came down
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the hall and visited, and they all went in and
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: had a jam which was recorded, and it's you know,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: the one reel of it that has made its way
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: out into the public is really not that great a jam.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: But it's possible that they went on to fill several
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: more reels, because Paul talks about that session going until
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: the you know, really early hours of the morning, and
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: May Pang in her book talks about an incredible version
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: of Midnight Special that they played at that jam, and
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: that's not on that tape that's out, So it's very
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: possible that there's more and that it's better than what
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: we've heard. But you know, they the next day they
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: went to where John and May were living, and Harry
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Nilsen was there and Keith Moon, Ringo mal Evans all
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: sitting around the pool, and Paul took John into a
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: room by himself and said, so listen, you know, do
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: you want to get back with Yoko? And John said yeah,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: and Paul said, okay, you know, I've seen Yoko and
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: this is this is what you have to do. I mean,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: it's almost as if they were living out the lyrics.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: If she loves you, yeah, that's true.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well I saw her yesterday, right, yes, yeah, So
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: you know, he told John what Yoko had told him,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: and you know, then, strangely enough, he went back to
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: New York, went to the circus with his daughters, and
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: then flew back to la because they wanted to go
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: to the Academy Awards. So talk about a jet center.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Speaking of the Beatles, it was almost a handful of
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: years since they disbanded, but in nineteen seventy four, they're
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: still battling over business dealings, right the Apple negotiate. What
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: would the disagreements over and how do they ultimately settle?
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Well, the disagreements were really over how to divide up
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: the money because all the money was going into Apple,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: including Paul's solo records. The royalties for that were going
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: into Apple because the contract that they had with EMI
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: treated solo projects and Beatles projects basically the same. Whatever
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: it was, Apple would be paid and Paul tried to
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: get EMI to pay him directly, but they wouldn't do
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: it because that's not what the contract said. And this
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: had a lot ramifications. For instance, how he could run Wings.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was funding Wings out of his pocket.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Basically he was paying the players a salary which they
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: were complaining wasn't enough, and you know, and it made
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: it very difficult not having access to the royalties for
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: his own recordings, let alone the Beatles stuff. And it
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: took a really long time, I mean years to finally
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: sort that out. And by the time they sorted it out,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: instead of scuttling Apple, which was the original intention, they
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: decided it would be useful to keep Apple to oversee
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: the Beatles relationship with EMI and other places that they
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: have a business partnership with. You know, for instance, today Disney.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: You know, they're doing things through Disney, like the Beatle
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: sixty four documentary and the Get Back documentary, and you know,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: and all these things. If Apple had been scuttled and
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: it was just the four guys individually doing their thing,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: it might be sort of difficult to do all this. Plus,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: you know, this will become more important in volume three
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: when we do it, because by the eighties they were
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: suing EMI. They started suing EMI in this volume actually
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: over various accounting issues, and that suit wasn't settled until
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine, and when it was, it gave the
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Beatles absolute say over how their music is put out
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: by EMI. So, for instance, in this volume, EMI puts
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: out the Rock and Roll Music compilation and the Love
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Songs compilation, stuff like that, and the Beatles can't stop it,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: and they just sort of shrug their shoulders and say, well,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: it's nothing to us. They owned the tapes. In nineteen
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: eighty nine, the settlement was, okay, EMI owns the tapes,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: but you cannot make any compilations or put out any
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: unreleased stuff or anything without our being involved.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: That's huge.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was huge. But it required having a place
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: like Apple to make that kind of deal, you know,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: for the four of them to stand as a unit.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of interesting that, you know, they took
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: years to take Apple apart only to keep it together.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: But they did get their individual money, and that was
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: the issue. And what made it complicated were things like,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: you know, the way the Beatles had often sort of
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: worked and lived is you know, they went and got
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: something and sent the bill to Apple. So John's living expenses,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: for instance, in New York at the Dakota all went
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: to Apple, and at John had spent something like two
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: million dollars, and you know, the others are saying, well,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I didn't necessarily spend two million dollars, So
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: we can't now divide this chunk up absolutely evenly. We
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: have to account for the bills that we have each
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: put in to app and that got really really complicated.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure, Yeah, yeah, I live inflation. Two
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: million dollars, then what is what today? Right?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Like ten times this month?
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: J Yeah, John was having some fun.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: That's the thing in writing this book, in that we
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: were constantly going to these historical currency conversion charts right,
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: and it changes over the period of the book. But
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: you know at the beginning it was like ten times
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: the amount like like ten pounds is one hundred pounds today.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Book on podcast will be back after this.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Surely you can't be serious. I am serious, and don't
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: call me.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Surely if you go into detail and the auditions that
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Paul held to find a new drummer, these are the
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: fun little facts that you find in this book too.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Mitch Mitchell from the Jimmy Hendricks experience was among the
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: guys who auditioned for the role of drummer. Ultimately, Jeff
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Britten gets the GIF. Jimmy McCulloch you mentioned earlier. He's
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: on guitar. So you have the lineup of Paul on
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: lead vocals and bass, Linda on keyboards, Denny Lane on
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: rhythm guitar, McCulloch and Britain and they recorded the standalone
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: single Junior's Farm, which I want to ask you about
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: now you write quote. Musically, Junior's Farm is an unusually
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: simple song with a purely visceral appeal. Talk about that
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: and also how impressive Paul was in quickly putting this
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: song together in the studio.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Paull had the basis of that song. This is a
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: song they recorded in Nashville during their you know, three
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: weeks they were there to sort of break in the band.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: But he had written the basis of it, at least musically,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: when he was still back in England's and Jeff Britton
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: remembers it being one of the audition pieces. You know. Basically,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Paul wanted to see what a drummer would do with
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: a piece of music that nobody knew, and you know,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: how he would follow Paul's lead and all of that,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's a nice rocker with some you know,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: eccentric lyrics. It turned out that although Paul you know,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: started this in England, Junior was a nickname of Curly Putman,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: whose his house Paul and Wings were staying at during
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: their time in Nashville. Curly was a songwriter, a country songwriter,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: and he basically rented his house to Paul and went
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: off to Hawaii on vacation. Now, Paul and Wings should
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: not technically have been recording in Nashville because they were
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: not there with that kind of visa. But their fixer
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: in Nashville, Buddy Killen, who owned a Nashville publishing company
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: and Curly Putmam was one of his songwriters, also owned
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: a studio in Nashville, and he basically finessed it with
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: the Musicians Union and anybody else who would ask, so
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: that Paul and Wings could do some recording there, just
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: sort of under the radar, and they went in and
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: they you know, it took you know, I go into
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: in the book various aspects of you know, what it
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: took to make the song work, because you know, they
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: rehearsed it during their rehearsal sessions at Curly's place, Junior's farm,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: and you know, they didn't have a beginning that Paul
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: liked and you know, what do we do with the solo?
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: And so it really took some doing before they they
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: got an arrangement that Paul was happy with and then
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: went into the studio and did it, you know, relatively quickly,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: you know, And that's the first thing that Jeff was
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: on and Jeff and Jimmy as a member of Wings,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: because Jimmy recorded with them before Jimmy recorded actually in
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Volume one, he went to a session with Paul and
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Linda and Denny in Paris, right after they finished Band
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: on the Run to record some of Linda's things, and
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: that was partly to audition, you know, Jimmy and there
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: was another drummer who ended up not staying with him
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: because he had made a commitment to someone else. Then
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: in the beginning of seventy four, they recorded Mike mcgear's
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: album Paul's Brother, which was basically a stealth Wings album.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. That's in your book. Yeah, that's a
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: really fascinating Yeah, that's the first book.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and Paul co wrote almost everything on
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: the album with Mike. He was pretty experimental and you know,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: but he also was auditioning Jimmy and the drummer for
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that was Jerry Conway, who he invited to join Wings.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: But Jerry Conway had committed to tour with Kat Stevens,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: so he felt he couldn't take the gig. And like
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: everyone who doesn't take a gig with Paul, he says,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: you know, I can't do it now because I've got
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: these commitments, but I hope you'll consider me in the future.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And they never get considered in the future. You only
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: say no to Paul once. So yeah, so they they
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: did Junior's Farm there, and it's a you know, it's
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: a it's a it's a nice straightforward rocker, which you
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: know was kind of one thing Paul sort of needed
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: because he's he's he's very prone to doing a ballad.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's what he excels at, and that's right,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: and people think of him as that, but you know,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: he can rock too, and so Junior's Farm sort of
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: fulfilled that side of things.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. His passion for science fiction is little known unless
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: you're McCartney diehard because I didn't really know about this.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Talk about that and how it influenced the follow up
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: to Band on the Run, which is Venus and Mars
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and it's title track.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: He is into sci fi and as you say, not
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: that well known. But he went off to Jamaica on
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: one of his frequent vacations and it's it's really interesting
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: because he goes on more vacations than anybody I've ever seen,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: and yet a vacation for him is also work because
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: it never comes home empty handed. He always comes home
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: with a bunch of songs.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: You know, So he goes there to get inspiration.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And you know they had started working on
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the tracks that would become Venus and Mars. But then
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: took a break and he went to Jamai and he
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: had the songs all written out for that album and
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: basically arranged exactly the flow of the album start to
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: finish in Jamaica. But while he was there, he also
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: bought a stack of Marvel comics and some Isaac Asimov books.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: I think he was reading Foundation at the time, you know,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: on the beach. That was just beach reading for him,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: and it occurred to him as well, well before we
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: get there. You know, Venus and Mars the title song,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: you know, the sci fi aspects of that are pretty obvious,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: and you know he's he's envisioning it as you know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: someone waiting for spaceship to come and collect him. You know.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Then Magneto and Titanium man is you know, basically right
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: out of Marvel comics, and he just sort of, you know,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: made up a song that would work with those characters.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: And you know, so Venus and Mars had this sort
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: of edging towards sci fi kind of feeling in a way.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: But there were other things in it too, like you
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: know rock show and you know, Little the old people.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: It's you know, it. It wasn't totally sci fi and
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: it wasn't a concept album anything like that, but that
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: was what was on his mind during that trip in Jamaica,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: and so he decided, why don't I do a film
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: for Wings? I mean, this had been on his mind.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: The Beatles did Hard Day's Night and help. He thought
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Wings could be in a film of their own and
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: that would, you know, be a good thing for the group.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And so after Jamaica he went to New York because
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: this was the end of the year, and he based
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: We went to New York for Christmas every year, hung
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: out with the Eastmans and Linda's family, and had the
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Eastman's arrange a meeting with Isaac Asimov. And you know,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, because you're Paul McCartney. You want a film script,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: you have an idea, you want someone to help you
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: with it. You go to the top, and Isaac Asimov was,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't get better. So they met. Isaac
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Asimov took Paul's idea and revised it pretty considerably and
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: sent Paul back his eighteen hundred word preliminary treatment for
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: what this film could be, where these you know, Paul's
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: idea was a you know, five aliens land on Earth
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: and they sort of morph into a copy of Wings,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: and then the film is sort of in a way
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: of battle between the real Wings and the space alien Wings.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Isaac Asimov decided, you know, it would be better if
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: these are sort of wraith like creatures. How they look
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: we can determine later. But they land on Earth and
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: they sort of inhabit Wings, you know. So it was
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: a different kind of story and ended up as a
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: love conquers all kind of thing, and he, you know,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: sent it to Paul. Paul had doubts about it. It
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: wasn't quite what he wanted to do, because you know, really,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I think what Paul wanted Asimov to do was turn
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: his idea as it was into a film script, not
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: necessarily change it as much as Asimov did. And so
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: he rejected it. And Asimov's Asimov's treatment is in the
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Boston University Library with all of his papers, and so
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: we went and got it and scrolled across the front
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: of the treatment. Is nothing became of this because McCartney
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: doesn't recognize good stuff.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Was McCartney or is McCartney Is he a perfectionist? Because
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: it doesn't seem that way. It just seems like he
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: has a vision and that's the way he wants it,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: or is he a perfectionist.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Well, he's a perfectionist in the sense that he wants
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: it to be what his vision is, and he'll keep
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: doing it until it is that. In Volume one, again,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I should be talking about Volume two, but you know,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: people can go buy them a sure.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: In Volume one, you know, when they're recording high, high high,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I mean he did hundreds of takes. He tried to
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: use a live version and then didn't like the live version,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: so did overdubs onto the live version, and then that
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: became too unwieldy, so they went back to the studio
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: started from scratch. You know. Yeah, he is a perfectionist
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: and he wants it his own way, and that, for
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: him is what perfectionism is. You know, he has a
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: vision of a song and how he wants it to sound,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: and he'll just keep doing it until it sounds that way.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And there's a lot of pressure on him
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: now solo artist, which as we get towards the end
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: of the book, we get to that point where he's
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: kind of feeling like, yeah, I think I need to
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: move on from Wings but we'll get to that. Venus
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: and Mars released in May of seventy five. Backing up
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: a bit earlier that year, there was a possibility of
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: John recording with Paul or was that really gonna happen?
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And what became of that plan that.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Really it was gonna happen? And people, you know, I
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: ran when we were writing this. I ran into a
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: lot of people who said, you know, May Pank says that,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: but is that really true? I mean, do we have
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: anything other than May say so? And it turns out
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: we do. We have a letter that John wrote to
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Derek Taylor, who had been a public head of publicity
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: at Apple, and you know, he was an extraordinary character.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: He did all kinds of things. But they remained friends
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: after the breakup, and John would send him postcards and
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: letters and things, and Derek actually, in one of his books,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: reproduced this letter. And it's a book. You know, Derek
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: did these books for Genesis Publications, which is a limited
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: edition British company that puts out, you know, beautifully done,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: leather bound volumes, and so this is a book that
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: you know, there aren't that many copies of it around,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: but I have one, and I was sort of looking
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: through it for any indication of anything we might need.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: And what did I find but a letter from John saying, Yeah,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go down to New Orleans and see the
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: McCartney's and we'll see what happens. So that's confirmation. But
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: what happened was John at that point ended up getting
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: back with Yokom pretty much right about when he would
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: have had to go down to New Orleans. And you know,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: if you're reconstructing your marriage, it's not necessarily the ideal
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: time to go flying off and work with one of
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: your friends. So he decided to stay in New York
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: with Yoko, and that was, you know, to the relief
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: of Paul's manager at MPL, Alan Crowder, who said in
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: an interview at a certain point that you know, I
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: think if John does come, it's just going to distract
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Paul and it's gonna throw everything off. Course, it would
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: be much better if but no one is going to
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: assert to Paul that John shouldn't come.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: You know, the distraction being because I was going to
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: ask about their relationship was a distraction. Maybe they had
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: a they were very competitively. Neither of each other complimented
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: each other's work. John. Didn't John take one of Paul's
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: albums and use it as a frisbee? So was that
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: the case?
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean, but they were very competitive
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: even within the Beatles, and yeah, you know, and that's
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: possibly one reason the Beatles were as great as they were. Have, Yeah,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: song writers trying to top each other.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: And there we go back to, yeah, Paul needing that
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: fire lid underneath him to to really step it up.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Isn't that interesting?
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting to think about what would have happened
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: because you know, as I said, Paul had Venus and
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: Mars totally planned out on that trip to Jamaica, and
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: the album they recorded is the album he mapped out
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: in this scroll that he put together with you know,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: each page was a different song and he sort of taped.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Them together and rolled it up, and that was a
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: scroll that was the map for for Venus and Mars. Well,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: John turned up. What would have happened. Would they have
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: set the scroll aside and maybe the two of them
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: done some new stuff, or yeah they have called George
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: and Ringo and said why don't you get down here,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: we got some stuff.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Oh Boo rock podcast. We'll be back after this.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Don't go away, gentlemen, we may need all of you.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: When was the Saturday Night Live story that was the
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: story about Yeah, that was Lord Michael was one.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: April twenty fourth, nineteen seventy six. Paul Paul was visiting
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: John at the Dakota. Paul was about to tour America
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: with Wings Wings Over America that that tour.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: And George was the musical guests on SNL that night.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: No George turned up later in the year, and I think,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: in fact might have even been in seventy eight around giving. Yeah,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: it was just the two of them and they were
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: watching and Lorne Michaels, you know, held up his three
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars check and said, I'd like to invite the
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Beatles to come in if you want to, you want
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: to pay ring go less, that's keep me out of it,
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: you know, divide it up however you want. And they thought, well,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: you know, should we go down there? I don't even
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: and then they decided not to. But then that became
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: sort of an interesting research issue too, because there are
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of discussions on Beatles chat boards and on
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Facebook and in various places where people are saying because Paul,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: in a later interview, said, well, okay, you know what,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: John and I really weren't together that time. I went
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: a week later and John told me about it. So
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: we've got, you know, we've got Paul telling that story
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: both ways, and we've got John telling the story where
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: you know, he and Paul were together and watched the show.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: We don't know why Paul decided that he wasn't with
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: John and that he went the next week, But we
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: looked into it and mapping it out, and you know,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: taking Saturday Out Lives broadcast schedule and Paul's touring schedule,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: and there is no possibility that Paul and John could
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: have watched Saturday Night Live together at any other time
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: that year except April twenty fourth, the night that the
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Lord Michaels actually made the offer for the Beatles reunion
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: for three thousand dollars. So we're pretty convinced that they
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: really did watch it together.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I was for some reason, I
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: thought George was there that night, But the story would
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: have been that they would have called George and Ringo
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: and the four of them would all meet up. Well,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: that's the thing with Paul. Sometimes you get different variations
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: on the stories behind songs of his right, like sometimes
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I wrote that after my pet and
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: then in another interview says, no, no, I wrote that
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: about a friend of mine. Who's right. Isn't that what
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: he does?
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: Change his mind sometimes or simply.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Forget right because it's a long time ago.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: It was a long time ago. And you know, it
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: turns out that the Beatles are in fact human, just
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: like the rest of us, and they have memory issues
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: like we all do, you know. I mean, I think
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: every one of us in our lives has stories that
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: we tell and someone if we someone else who was there,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: will say, no, it wasn't that way, you know, and
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: and who's right? You know? But Paul, you know, you
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: know the at the time he wrote Jet, for instance,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: he said that the name was taken from a dog,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: you know, it was the runt of the litter. He
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: really liked it, and it was black and they called
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: it Jet and use that as the title. If you
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: look in his lyrics book, he will tell you that
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Jet is named after a horse. And there's a picture
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: of a horse crossing Abbey Road crosswalk, you know, the
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: famous crosswalk with Linda, and that horse is also named Jet,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: but he didn't have that horse until you know, way
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: after Jet was written and recorded and out, I mean
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: years later. So you know, now I'm not saying that
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: he's lying. I think he just sort of you know,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: this isn't the most important stuff in the universe. So
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: this is why, I mean, we have Adrian and I
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: in our archives that we've assembled to use for this book,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: you know, just things we've collected, all our laws and
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: things that Adrian has found at gotten during his research trips.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: And we have thousands, literally thousands of Paul McCartney interviews
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: on audio, video and in print, and what we've always
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: tried to do is go back to the interview that
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: is closest to the event that we're writing about, on
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: the theory that that will probably be the most accurate.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: It's not always the case, because sometimes people have an
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: agenda at the time something's happening that prevents them from
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: telling absolutely every detail of the story or whatever, and
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: so maybe sometimes later than more accurate because they feel
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: free to say. But generally speaking, we feel that what
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: he says close to the event is probably the most
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: accurate telling, and so we go for that when we can,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: but sometimes he doesn't talk about these things for a
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: couple of decades, so you know, you know, it depends
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: what he's asked.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: How about his war with the music press? Like nmy,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: there's a story about a Charles shar Murray of m
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: look back and forth, the tense back and forth there
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: very yes.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Charles h. R. Murray, I mean, earlier on wrote some
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: very positive reviews of Wings, but for some reason he
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: just hated Venus and Mars and he went to interview
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: Paul and the interview, you know, judging from the write up,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: which basically included absolutely every second of the interview, including
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Paul saying and you know, and he just left everything in.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Judging from that, it looks like the interview was a
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: little bit snarky to begin with, you know, and put
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Paul a bit on the defensive. But then he called
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: the piece something like, how do you tell the the
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Beatles made a crappy album? You know, something like that,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: and then subsequently really pans a number of other of
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: subsequent singles and albums and things. And so Paul really
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: took this to heart, this Charles Charmurray interview, and was
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: really angry about it, and you know, even as recently
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: as you know, maybe less than ten years ago. There
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: was an interview he did for BBC where he mentioned
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: that interview specifically. I think he talked about it as
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: a review because in the in the piece Charles Charmurray
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: actually does also review the record, and you know, it's
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: it's still it still bothers him, you know, decades later.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and so for a while, Enemy wasn't invited
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: to certain press conferences and you know, basically if they
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: had a request, uh, it would be denied. So an
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Enemy noticed this and they wrote about it as well.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: You know, that's in a way one journalistic thing you
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: can do. I mean, I remember from my time as
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: the New York Times is you know you can you
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: can if you've been banned from something, you can mention
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: in print that you've been banned from it. And it's actually,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: in some ways more embarrassing to the person who banned
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: you than it is to you.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, makes them look like they're thin skinned.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Right, So that's what Amy did. And then eventually Paul
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: and Enemy got back you know.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: On track.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: But but yeah, there was a very fraught time between Paul.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: And nem there book podcast we'll be back after this.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: And remember, my friend, not just the well affect you
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: in the future.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Before my next question, I just want to share some
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: great stories throughout the book. There's one that I wanted
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: to share, and it's the one where Paul's talking about
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: seeing Jaws and you're right here. The McCartney spent the
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: fourth of July weekend with the Eastmans in East Hampton.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Evening's Paul and Linda slipped out to the local cinema
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: to catch a handful of movies, including Robert Altman's musical
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: drama Nashville and Steven Spielberg's killer Shark thriller Jaws. During
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: the day, Paul continued to hone his fitness levels off
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: the coast of Long Island. Paul said, we saw Jaws
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: on July three, so the next day we were swimming cautiously.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Those are great entries throughout the books. Take it back
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: in time. Alan Cosin, co author of The McCartney Legacy
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Volume two nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty, along with
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: of course Adrian Sinclair. Adrian would have been here, but
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: it's like eleven thirty and now it's past midnight where
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: he is in the UK, So we'll say hello to Adrian.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: The Wings of the World Tour seventy six Beatle Songs.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: This was a big deal, right because he hadn't played
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Beatle songs in a while, included Yesterday, Lady Madonna and
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: The Long and Winding Road. So why why did he
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: hold I think I know the answer to this. But
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: talking about why he held off, I'm playing Beatles songs
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: for a while, why he decides finally to include them
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: on this particular tour, You know, I.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Think Band on the Run had a lot to do
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: with it, or the success of Band on the Run,
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: because in the build up to Band on the Run
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: it was you know what, I don't want to coast
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: on the Beatles stuff. I want to establish Wings as Wings,
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: you know. And even though the players in Wings wanted
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: to play Beatles stuff and they tried it in seventy three,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: they played a couple of songs at a show at
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: a TV taping for the James Paul McCartney TV special,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: and then that night they did a charity show at
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: the hard Rock Cafe in London and played same set
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: with I think it was Long and Winding Road. But
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: he didn't really want to incorporate that into touring, and
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: because he wanted to establish Wings as its own band.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: No Beatles covers, nothing like that. And with Band on
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: the Run and the success that it had, I think
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: he felt finally, okay, okay, I have now shown that
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I can make a spectacular album that everybody loves, including critics.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: So now you know, we'll go out on tour and
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: maybe I'll add a few Beatles songs. I think he
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: played like five on that tour, and you know, and
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: the response was obviously going to be very gratifying for him.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: You know, when they played yesterday in Zagreb in Yugoslavia,
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: the audience sang along in English the whole song, and
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: we interviewed. Among the people we interviewed were his sound crew,
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: and they said, yeah, he's looking off to the side
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: of the stage like what you know, wow. And at
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: the end he played it again as an encore, something
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: he never did. I mean, he only did it at
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: that show and they sang again, and you know, with
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: footstamping and the whole thing, it was incredibly enthusiastic. And
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: so you know, after that, well, he played it all
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: through the seventy five, seventy six tour, and then he
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: didn't tour again until eighty nine. And when he toured
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: again again, Beatles songs were acceptable. I mean, eighty nine,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: now it's a totally different thing. People were not going
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: to be constantly asking him, couldn't the Beatles get back together?
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Because John had been shot? You know, it just wasn't
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: going to happen. So I think he felt a bit
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: better about playing the stuff without having to wear about
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: whether there's going to be talk of a Beatles reunion,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: and you know, and I think he just realized eventually
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: that also, you know, he by eighty nine, he was
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: no longer trying to establish Wings. Wings was gone, you know.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Now it was Paul and a backing band, and Paul
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: could rightfully assert ownership of that part of the Beatles
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: catalog that he wrote. And then ultimately he went further
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: than that. I mean, on various of his tours he's
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: played versions of Strawberry Fields, mister Kaye, various things that
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: we associate with John specifically, so you know, and he's said,
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: you know, actually you weren't there, and I did contribute
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: to these songs. You think of it as a John song,
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: but I was involved, So there's.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: That Silly Love Songs from nineteen seventy six is wings
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: at the speed of sound, a huge head, and you write, quote,
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: silly Songs in Bohemian Rhapsody are very different songs, but
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: they share certain features beyond vocal counterpoint, namely an episodic structure.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: The recording would have to be carefully planned if all
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: the song's elements were to fall into place. Paul said
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: that do you agree with that? Did you find that
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: because I never thought about that. I mean I've heard
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: the songs of the song a million times.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would never have. I would never have associated
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: the two. But now looking more closely at Silly Love Songs,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: I can see why there's that association because of the
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: episodic aspect, because of the vocal counterpoint. You know, Bohemian
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Rhapsody is pretty sophisticated in terms of vocal counterpoint, and
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: Silly Love Songs too. I mean, he has he has
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: different lines with different lyrics sort of going against each other.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: And you know it's it's not that straightforward, you know,
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: it's it's funny because silly Love songs. I've run in
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: this lots of times with these two books where silly
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Love Songs was a song that I, you know, I
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: never really particularly liked. I didn't hate it, but it
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: wasn't a favorite. But taking it apart and looking closely
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: at how it was done and and you know, going
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: back to we have all sort of you know, handwritten
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: manuscript of it on the back of an envelope showing
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: like a schematic of the complicated episodic aspects and where
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: they go, gave me a you know, a really new
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: respect for that song that I hadn't had before, you know.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: And the fact, you know, listen to his bassline in
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: that it's quite a complicated bassline, and that's different from
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: what he had been doing as a member of Wings
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: during the Beatles. His basslines were always contrapuntal and always,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: you know, really sophisticated, not just outlining the chords. You
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: know a lot of people do. I mean, they were
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: pieces of art in themselves. Just the bassline and then things.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: It was a lot simpler. And when people would ask
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: him how come you know, your basslines are so much
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: simpler now than they were with the Beatles, and he
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: would say, well, but that's the style now, you know.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: But with Silly Love Songs, it is back to an
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: absolute Beatles level, Paul McCartney bassline, and you know, and
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: that's something I admire about that too. So you know,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: silly love songs. You know, I just got had a
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: totally new attitude about it than I did before I
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: started the book. And that's happened with a number of songs.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: And that's why I think that, you know, the same
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: way that Ram. When Ram came out, it got a
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: lot of scathing reviews and a lot of people didn't
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: like it. But now you ask people and Ram is
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: like one of his best albums.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I've heard that.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that will happen with Back to
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: the Egg, the album that's the last one that comes
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: out during this period in volume two. It's really a
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: good album. And you know, even Paul has said that
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: he was a little disappointed in it, but he heard
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: it again recently a son played it and he realized
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: that it really was actually pretty good. So you know,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I think I think other people will come around to Booked.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: On Rock podcast will be back after this, Hey, I
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: won't be long. There was a solo concept album in
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven called Thrillington. This was shelved going back
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: to like early seventies, right, seventy two, seventy three, seventy one.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right after the Ram album came out, he decided
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: that he wanted a full album cover of Ram, but
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: done in a totally different way. He wanted it to
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: be orchestral, but the arranger he hired, Richard Hughson, was
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: more of a jazz guy, so it's it's a little jazzy,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a you know, cocktail orchestra kind
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: of kind of sound. He recorded it, produced it, and
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: it sat on the shelf from nineteen seventy one to
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven, and then he decided to bring it out.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: He does that a lot. I mentioned one hand clapping earlier.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: You know, that was recorded in seventy four, just came
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: out this year. That's fifty years that sat on the shelf. Wow.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about ahead of his time too. The marketing
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: campaign for Thrillington, Who's Percy Thrillington or the what is
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: the Percy Thrillington promotion?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: That was yeah, brilliant, Yeah, yeah, because Percy Thrillington didn't exist,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: of course, but Paul decided, you know, had this idea
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: that you know, we're gonna have this album done by
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: a conductor named Percy Thrillington, and we're going to make
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: up a myth for Percy Thrillington and how Paul discovered
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: him and signed him to MPL and all that. And
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: they took out all these little ads, little personal ads,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: you know, Percy Thrillington says that, you know, you should
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: have a hot bath, or you should go to this
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: debutante ball or you know whatever, and we reproduced all
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: of those little ads as the inner papers of the book. Yeah,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: we had a good time with that. And it's kind
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: of funny because it's you know, the recording sessions for
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: it or in volume one, and the preparations for the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: release and making the cover and doing these ads and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: all of that are in volume two, so you know,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: the story stretches over. We're hoping eventually to We think
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: the series will take like five volumes.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: I heard of you run another podcast, and I was
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: listening to both of you talk about that, which would
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: be great because there's a lot more left to cover. Yeah,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: there's a lot more. Like even his most recent stuff.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: Some of the stuff I love is the Fireman sessions.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: I thought was great.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: There's really a lot. I mean he is constantly busy.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: October seventy eight, this story I love. McCartney assembled the
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: rock orchestra of famous names to record a song. I
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: was just listening to the song the other day, fascinated
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: by this. Pete Townsend, Hank Marvin, David Gilmour and John
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Bonham tell us about this. There's also some people that
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: almost joined, Jeff beck Elton, John Ringo Starr and Keith.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Moon the Rockestra theme, but the group itself was referred
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: to as Rockestra, right right, Yeah. You know, he had
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: this idea for, you know, a TV show that was
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: going to be a battle between a classical orchestra and
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: a rock band. And this has in a way nothing
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: to do with as he envisioned it. It just became
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: this one song, but that was the genesis of this idea,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: and he just sort of called up everybody and said,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: you want to come down to the studio and do
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: this thing. And he wrote a very simple thing. You know,
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: Rockester's not complicated, and because it couldn't be complicated, they
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: were just going to all turn up in the studio
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: that day and record it right then. So it's simple but.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: It's a great song. I love it.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: It's cool. It is a cool song, and you know.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: And he also had it filmed, but he decided that
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: because he didn't want the players to be self conscious
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: about the camera or mugging for it or anything, he
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: would have the camera hidden in the studio, so they
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: built a fake wall and the cameras behind it. They
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: weren't able to use the film because since he didn't
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: want anybody to know that he was filming, he obviously
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: didn't have them sign releases, and without releases, you can't
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: put anything out. So he's got this film of Rochestra.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: It's been bootlegs, people have seen it, but you know.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: And then they repriased it at the Campuccia Concerts in
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. At the end of December nineteen seventy
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: nine in London, he reassembled most of this group and
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: they did a couple of songs. They did the Rochestra
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: theme and Lucille little Little Richard track that was Winnipole's
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: favorites during the Hamburg era Beatles.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: That might have been one of John Bonham's last recordings
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: before he passed.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Bonham died in nineteen eighty, so it wasn't too long.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: And that's the reason why Keith Moon didn't, Right, didn't
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: Keith Moon? He passed away before they recorded.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: During Yeah, he passed away. Yeah, during the time they
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: were working on Venus Back to the Egg.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were gonna probably he was going to
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: reach out to Keith Moon. But what about Jeff Beck,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Elton John, Ringo Starr. What were the reasons they did?
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: Jeff Beck wanted approvals of, you know, the music and
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: what he'd play, and various things that Paul considered unwieldy
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: or that he just didn't want to do. Elton John,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: I believe had another recording session that day, so he
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: couldn't make it. And I'm not sure what the story
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: was with Ringo.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: Podcast We'll be back after this. Wings released nineteen seventy
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: eights London Town, which includes with a Little Luck but
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: down to a trio Now Paul Linda and Denny Lane,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: guitarist Lawrence Juber and drummer Steve Holly. I'm back to
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: the Egg, right, Okay, this is the last Wings album
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: respectable numbers. But now what Columbia was expecting. You state
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: in the book that Paul may have been feeling the
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: pressure from the enormity of a deal with Columbia that
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: triggered in magnified his insecurities.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know that it affected the songs on Back
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: to the Egg. I think that affected the way he
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: marketed or didn't bother marketing Back to the Egg. You know,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: he signed this new deal with Columbia, which not only
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: gave him what was reported as like the you know,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: highest royalty anybody was getting and the highest advance anybody got,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: but also Columbia gave him a publishing company that they
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: had owned and had, you know, tons of interesting copyrights.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: You know, there's another aspect of Paul that people don't
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: often think about, which is his sideline as a music
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: publisher started in Volume one when he bought Buddy Holly's catalog.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: You know, his father in law that Lee Eastman, was
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: also involved in music publishing. That was one of the
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: things that he did as an investment. And when Paul
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: was talking about, you know, what do I do to
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: be able to keep some of my money once it
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: gets out of Apple or even just the bit that
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: I've still got, and Lee said, well, you know, you
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: should do what you love, and what you love is music,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: and I know something about music publishing, let me show you.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: And so Paul began buying these catalogs and he ended
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: up owning, you know, enormous numbers of standards and Broadway
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: shows and all the Buddy Holly stuff. And he's very
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: serious about his publishing empire, and that actually, you know,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: there were other companies bidding for Paul, and the publishing
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: basically put Columbia over the edge. And so he's got
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: this enormous new deal. He finishes the album, he sends
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: it to Columbia and does a single good Night Tonight
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: and Daytime Nighttime Suffering, two tracks that weren't on the album,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: and are you know, extraordinary tracks in their own way.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: Columbia wanted them on the album, just as el Corey
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: would have at Capital, and Paul said no, not putting
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: him on the album. So Columbia is already a little
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: upset at that. And then he says, you know, I'm
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: not coming to the States to promote this album, but
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: I'll send the two newest Wings members, Lawrence Juber and
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: Steve Holly to do whatever interviews you want done. Steve
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: and Lawrence are wonderful guys and great musicians, but probably
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: most people would have wanted to talk to Paul, not
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: to them, And so Columbia was again a little upset
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: at the fact that, Okay, we've four over all this
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: money and a publishing company and we're not even getting
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: him to come over and do some interviews, let alone tour.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: So you know, they were a bit upset about that.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: But and that's possibly why it didn't sell as well
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: as it could have, because he didn't get behind it.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: I think there's some good songs old Sam Sir getting
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: Closer Arrow through Me Rockestra theme. Actually that was released
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: in Europe as a single if I'm seeing correct.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: My yeah, my baby request is that you know is
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: a gorgeous song and it almost didn't end up on
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: the album because he didn't write it for the album.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: He wrote it for one of those sort of old
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: time vocal quartets that you know, of our parents generation,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: who he went to see and in Europe in France,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: and they came and said, can you write us a song?
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: And he said sure, and he wrote that song totally
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: in their style. Their manager sent him a note saying, yeah,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: you know, they'll record it for one thousand dollars. That's
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: sort of not the deal. So he took the demo
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: that he recorded with Wings and put it on the
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Back to the Egg album. And it's a great track
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: with a great opening guitar flourish by Lawrence Juber. You know,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: it's and it was one of the ones that they
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: made a video for.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: So so winding down with nineteen eighties McCartney two. That's
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: a departure for Paul. That's a solo project, much of
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: it realized on synthesizers, studio experimentation. From reading the book,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: it seems like Paul was thinking about going solo on
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: that last Wings tour officially announced that Wings are no longer.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: I think in eighty two, I believe what was his
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: reason or reasons for going solo. He's kind of feeling
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: like there was too much weight on his shoulders.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: I think he finally realized that, yeah, that he didn't
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: really want the headache of running a band, even though
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: this version of Wings was probably the least headache producing
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: of any of the former ones, because nobody was complaining,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: nobody was insisting on doing things their way rather than
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: what Paul wanted. They were, you know, they were significantly
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: younger than Paul, and they were doing what he wanted done.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: Orange Druber was, you know, an excellent guitarist. He was
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: classically trained and he had experience playing in a jazz orchestra.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: He had a lot of studio experience, recorded everything from
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: you know, James Bond movies to you know, uh, you
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: know jazz records and and some rock and and law
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: and Steve Holly had been touring with Uh. Well, we
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: recorded with Ellen John, recorded a full album with Elton
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: John and UH. I think he was touring with Keiki
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: d as well, so he also had a lot of experience.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: So you've got these two guys who were doing everything
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Paul wants, you know, not giving him any pushback, having
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: a great time, and he decides that he's had enough
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: of running a band. So I don't totally understand it
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: because you would think that finally it's gotten to be
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: what he wanted it to be. But also, you know,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: this is really more for the next book. But when
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: they went to record Tug of War, he wanted George
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: Martin to produce it, which for the first time since
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: he worked with George Martin with the Beatles and George
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: Martin didn't want it to be a Wings album. He
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: wanted it to be a solo Paul McCartney album, and
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: you know, with that and everything else, he just decided
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: to hang up the idea of Wings. And unfortunately, though
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: he didn't tell the other members of Wings this, they
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: read it in the music press and called him up
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: and said, I'm so Paul, we read this thing, and he's, oh, yeah,
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: I've been meaning to call you.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, And that was it and he
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: went went on his own. Just one last question because
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: it's a there's a photo in the book of Paul
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: and Handcuffs and it's just so it's just dis honestly,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: Paul and Handcuffs. What happened on January sixteenth, nineteen eighty.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: Well, they flew into Japan to do a short tour
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: of Japan after the nineteen seventy nine British tour with Wings,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: and Paul had been warned by everybody not to bring
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: pot into Japan because it's you know, it's not the West,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: and it's kind of a westernized country now, but it's
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: a different a place and they don't tolerate that, and
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: you'll be in jail for a long time. Everyone told
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: him that. Chris Thomas told him that, who produced Back
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: to the Egg. Other musicians told him that. But for
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: some reason he decided to bring a significant amount of
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: pot in his suitcase, just in his suitcase under a sweater,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: you know, and they landed all, you know. And also
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: he could have known too, because he was supposed to
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: tour with Wings in nineteen seventy five and he had
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: his visas and everything, and the Japanese government in the
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: last minute said, you know what, he's had some pot busts.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: We don't want him to come into the country. So
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: he knew what the Japanese attitude towards marijuana was. God Online,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: Lawrence Juwber is standing right next to him. He's got
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: a brand new Gibson guitar that he just found in
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: New York on the way to Japan. Eye opens the suitcase,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: puts his hand in uh oh where I got there,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: takes out the pot, and suddenly Paul and Lawrence Duber
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: are led into separate rooms. Juwber had to sit there
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: while well guy comes in with the screwdriver, has him
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: take the guitar apart that there isn't any marijuana in
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: the guitar and Paul is arrested and led away in handcuffs,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: and you know, the book pretty much ends there. It
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: goes on a little bit more. It describes basically wings
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: reaction to the news because they're just getting the news
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: and there's I'm going to post this on one of
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: my social media's tomorrow probably, but we have a clip
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: from the audio book of you know, Denny and Chris Thomas.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: Chris Thomas, the producer, went on this tour with him
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: and by the time he gets to his room, he
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: gets a phone call from Danny saying, turn on the
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: TV and Chris Thomas says, what channel, and then he says,
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter, any of the elevisions. You know, this was
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: a big thing. Yeah, they decided to unwind by going
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: out to a club after that, and they basically said,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: you know, on the way to the club, there were
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: posters for the Wings tour on every single telephone poll.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: On the way back from the club, they were all gone.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcast. Will be back after this.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: We will not pose for identification.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: All right, So what are the plans for volume three,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: four and five too? What are the plans for the future.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: Well, the way we're looking at it now, and the
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: things change. But volume three will cover all of the eighties,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: Volume four will cover the nineties, and volume five will
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: be from two thousand until whenever we're finished, you know. Yeah,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: and you know, and that'll take us a while. It'll
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: take us a bit longer to do volume three than
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: it took to do volume two, because we basically had
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: done the research for volumes one and two together.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, could you mentioned there was a as far
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: as who's going to publish it, there was just a
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: two book deal or initially is that what I heard
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: or write?
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: We initially had a two book deal with day Street,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: and I you know, we will at some point soon
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: after this one comes out, you know, be discussing the
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: future with them again. We talked to them. Well, when
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: we first signed the deal, I had lunch with our
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: editor and publisher and she said, so, how many volumes
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: do you think it would take to do the whole story?
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: And I said five, And the look of horror on
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: her face made me say, I mean four. Yeah. But
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: then last February, when we were at fest for Beatles fans,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: you know, signing books, she popped by and we had
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: a chat with her and she said, so do you
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: think you can do five volumes? And I said, yeah,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: so we'll see how it goes. But we do need to,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: you know, have some more meetings with them and see
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: what their feeling is. And if if they don't want
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: to do it, I'm not sure we'll, you know, we'll.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: I guess we'll try and find another publisher. But it's
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't want to break up a series
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: like this.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, well, I'm looking forward to it. I think
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: maybe my favorite Paul song solo from the eighties would
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: be No More Lonely Nights with David Gilmour. There's songs
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: that I'm really looking forward to reading about in the albums.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Of course, his work with Elvis Costello, right and in
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: the Dirt and yeah, all that stuff. So I'm really
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: looking forward to right now, though, everybody can go out
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: and get Volumes one and two. The McCartney Legacy. Volume
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: one covers nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy three. That's
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: the Red one, yep. And if Volume two seventy four
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: to eighty is the Blue one, and they're both out now.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: You can find them wherever books are sold. Now, what about?
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you online? Alan? Or is there
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: a website for the book series.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: There is a website for the book which is McCartney
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: legacy dot co dot UK. Day Street Books also has
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: a website for it, which I think is called McCartney
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: legacy dot com. I'm looking up on the Facebook page.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: We're all over the.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: Place, Alan Cosin, thanks so much.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: That's it, the books