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Episode #35: Joel Answers Your Questions · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nature never tills.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Show me a place in nature where there's tillage.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Throughout human civilization's history, the tillage component of agriculture has been a real, I don't know, it's been a thorn on our side.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's been a real problem for a long, long time.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, welcome to Beyond Labels.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your co-host, Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McKella, and I'm here with none other than the amazing Joel Salatin, our favorite farmer.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Today, Joel is going to be answering listeners' questions.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to add, if you have questions, please email them to me.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Please don't write them in the comment section.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Please email them directly to me.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hands off my food at 1791.com.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we will get to your questions.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's been interesting, Joel, you know, since we're a farmer and a doctor combined.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's really cool is that the questions that have been coming in, about half have been on farming for you, and half have been on health for me.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're starting with Joel's questions.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: So question number one.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: This one comes from, and I apologize, I'm going to butcher the name.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's Erica, I think it's June.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Erica says or asks, if someone wanted to start a homestead and they wanted to take a course, which course would you recommend they take to get started?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great question.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if it I don't want to sound self-serving here, I don't know what kind of uh homestead you're you're looking at, but there are really, really wonderful homestead, you know, homestead books in the you know in in in the in the history of of this.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean the the homestead the homestead movement really took off you know back in the early 70s with the you know the hippie uh vietnam era um movement that that spawned a lot of that and then it kind of waned uh through the you know through the the late 80s and and early 90s and now of course and then and then it got uh another shot in the arm at Y2K at 2000.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Suddenly, you know, everybody was heading to the hills, and and then it kind of waned again, good times, you know, and now it's it's really uh it's really a tsunami now.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there is a a whole um litany of, you know, there's there's um uh back to Eden, there's the all the stuff from um Elliot Coleman, there's material, I mean, archives, obviously, you know, Mother Earth News and um lots of homesteading type of material.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I encourage you, rather than maybe taking a course, um just just start immersing yourself in that lexicon and the you know the the uh what the personal stories and histories of people who did um make those changes and head either from an urban to a suburb to a you know to a rural sector and start something.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh now if you're if you want to do animals, I would recommend my latest book, Polyface Micro, uh, which is taking everything that we've done at scale here and scaling it down to a homestead scale.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I have a chapter in there on how to have chickens and rabbits in a Manhattan apartment.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, even even down to you know to that to that small.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but I I think rather than rather than a course, um, what you're after is just immerse yourself in the the rich the rich um uh lexicon surrounding this homesteading idea.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then the main thing is do something.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Start if you haven't made your move to a homestead, you can do some sprouts in your windowsill, you can start a verma composting bin under your sink, learn to love earthworms, you know.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, you you can you can hang some you know an herb, a little um uh PVC pocketed herb, herb tunnels, you know, on your on your porch.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, maybe you can have a beehive uh you know in the in the back.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um the point is to start where you are, so many people I think I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make is that that they don't appreciate what they could do now.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they think, well, if I just had, you know, an acre, if I just will live somewhere else, if I just had a different situation, you know, then I could do this stuff.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's like saying, um, we've decided we're not gonna have kids till we afford till we can afford them.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, whenever somebody says we're not gonna have kids till we can afford them, you know they'll never have kids because you can never afford them.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so and so what you need to do is just go ahead and start uh and start experientially, and you'll, you know, um, I use the term fill up where you are.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, fill up where you are, and that experience, experience is worth more than everything.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So just start with something.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't expect something will fall in your lap until you've filled up where you are and immerse yourself in this.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Eat, sleep, and drink um the homesteading material, the rich, the rich material that's out there.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's tons of books, tons of articles, and just immerse yourself in it and you'll be uh you'll be way down the road.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think go see a homestead, right?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Find one that you like, or you know, the the principles of it you like and go visit it.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Go ask them questions, immerse yourself in it, like not just through a book or a course, but in reality, you know.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's nothing that matches that, you know, personal experience and that connection that you're gonna get.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'll see, you'll see it operating in real time.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: You'll see what you like, you'll see what doesn't resonate with you, right?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I wrong on that?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, you're right, Tina.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, I ask you, you know, you you're now uh venturing into a garden.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't you don't have your I know you guys are are maybe um still looking, you know, not not ready to say we're gonna be here the rest of our lives, but you've already ventured out.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're not waiting, you're not waiting for the for the per for the perfect paradise place to drop in your lap.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you've ventured out into a uh, you know, a lot of things on your own, even though it's a very small place.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've dabbled in a lot of things in the gardening and growing herbs and some things I'm more successful than than not, but we just keep on trying.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and like you said, we're we've we've been pursuing a homestead as well.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've flown to Texas to see if that's where we were meant to go.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: We felt called to go there.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: We went to Tennessee to because we I thought maybe that's where we're called to go to.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't, but you know, we keep going, right?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: We just um you just exploring.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think now you're I mean, think of how much now um that that you know about building a compost pile that you didn't know like three or four years ago when you when you started your first one.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um it wasn't very successful.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the dog ate it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so if you haven't read our book, Beyond Labels, then let's add that in there.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: My dog actually ate the compost and she got super fat.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't, I didn't know she was eating the compost.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking, oh man, she's developed some hormonal imbalance or something.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to fix it.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Little did I know, she ate all my compost.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like Yeah, so you know, these these are all things that that you just you just learn as you go forward, and um, and so you know, experience is is wonderful.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right, what about another question?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, next question.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this question comes from um Brian Aksner.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: He he has, I farm with my family in western Kansas, where we grow mainly wheat with some corn.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we've been farming using what I call plow, spray, and pray.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the method of farming they've been using.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they've gotten decent results.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it makes um it makes let's see, and I don't think it makes much sense now nowadays, with rising prices for inputs and less reliable supply chains for replacement parts.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that going to no-till farming with cover crops is a better way to farm than the way we have in the past.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because where we farm, we only get 16 to 20 inches of moisture a year.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Would this prevent no-till farming from working in our area?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: If so, what workarounds, if any, are possible to offset the lack of moisture?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's such a wonderful, wonderful question.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the the breakthroughs in non-chemical agriculture uh worldwide was developed in Australia.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know anything about Australia, you know Australia is not known for being wet.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it was is a is a guy named Colin Sice, and he's really taken the world by storm.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you don't read about Colin Sice, you know, on the, you know, he doesn't get featured on the media, but what he's developed is probably as big a breakthrough as, for example, the development of electric fence uh uh 50 years ago.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it's a system called pasture cropping.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so he he was a grain farmer in Australia.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he had grain, grain, and sheep.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: He grew barley and oats and things and sheep in Australia.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh a fire came through and it burned, it burned all of his crops, it burned up his sheep, it burned his equipment, his sheds, his house.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, his entire farm.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, this wasn't a small, it was like, you know, a couple thousand acres.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: The entire place went up in smoke.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and it it was it was a family, you know, he was like the third generation.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: He traced his history back to like 1820, you know.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so this got him to thinking, uh, kit, you know, I don't I don't have money to recapitalize everything.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do I restart?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so out of that crucible of catastrophe, he developed a system called pasture cropping, where if you're familiar with no-till, no-till generally uses an herbicide to kill sod, and then you plant into that killed sod corn or milo or wheat or you know, beans or whatever.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the in the typical you know, lexicon, when somebody says no-till, and I don't know, I don't know if if this question is assuming an herbicidal, an herbicidal kill, um, when they say no-till.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I don't want to read anything more into it, but but no-till is about um planting crops without having to till the soil, which we know is the single most damaging thing that you can do to soil is to till is to uh to till it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um and so that the alternative has been this no-till, which is an herbicide-based system.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: But Colin Sice, uh, what he's developed is pasture cropping.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've done it twice here at Polyface, um, once very successfully, once not very successfully, you know, you live and learn.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's experience, right?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um the first time was not successful, the second time was very successful.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and what he's what he's doing is instead of instead of um preparing the the the seed to plant the seed with herbicide to burn down you know weeds and sod and all that, and to kill that so that an annual, an annual like corn or or or or barley or wheat or something could could come up in it.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: He uses animals.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So what he does is he strategically comes in with uh so say you've got you've you've got a pasture, he'll come in with his flock of sheep and he'll graze it, and then he'll come in a few days later and plant with a no a no-till drill.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it's so it's a drill that simply makes a has little shoes in it, makes slits, and it drops seeds into these little slits as it goes through, you know, the sod.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the sod, of course, the grass is wanting to come back, right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So right before the seed germinates, he comes in with a sheep again, grazes it real hard, and and weakens.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so so those two, those two grazings back to back, um faster than the grass once, actually weakens the grass just enough temporarily to where these annuals, the the corn, the wheat, the barley, the whatever, can jump up ahead of the grass, and then it continues to grow ahead of the grass, and then it starts to shade the grass.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: The grass acts as a mulch.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you never kill the grass underneath, it acts as a mulch.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and the the grain crop then grows on up ahead of it, and then you harvest the grain crop.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And as the grain crop starts to desiccate, you know, the leaves start to fall off, starts to brown down.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that lets light, that emits light now into the understory.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: The grass begins to grow.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when you harvest off the grain, you have this nice 10 or 12 inches of grass, nice and green, back underneath the back underneath the grain.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's got 2,000 farmers doing this in Australia.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are definitely farmers doing this in in the US.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and it is a it is a true breakthrough.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, um, you can't do this every year uh because what he depends on is the perennial, the grass perennial, to to build up the soil enough to handle a um a grain crop.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So so grain crops tend to extract soil energy.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Perennials like grasses and forages and clovers tend to replenish soil energy.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh so he does this, you know, he rotates around his crop ground, uh, and he does this about once every uh five to seven years.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and actually, if we quit if we quit feeding grain to herbivores, you know, uh beef cows and dairy cows, uh, we wouldn't need nearly as much grain.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the so the grain could be you know uh uh spread out a lot more uh to be able to do this.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the the short, so that to just say the answer is yes, this has nothing to do with rainfall.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: It has to do with biomass, biomass management.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about carbon and biomass management, and it can be done uh uh anywhere uh that that a crop that has enough moisture to actually grow a crop.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, this system uh um saves moisture because you never till it, you don't open up the soil to evapotranspiration um because you have that that living mulch underneath that preserves the moisture you know under the crop.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, you can, and yes, it works, and yes, it even works better in low rainfall areas.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that is so amazing.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was getting goosebumps as you're explaining that methodology.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, because that's one of the big things I read about uh one of the benefits of regenerative agriculture, for instance, are the cover crops, right, covering that soil.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and if you look in different areas that have been untouched by humans, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Nature doesn't like to be naked, right?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we do we lose a lot of moisture and such from bare soils, and we change the microbial content of that soil by tilling it and then by keeping it bare.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So this definitely resonates with me.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm even more convinced than ever, Joel, that I'm gonna have to move to do a homestead because we can't even have chickens here where I live in my HOA.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And now I want to have these animals and do this system like you're talking about.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: That that's a beautiful, a beautiful dance with nature, you know.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wonder, do you I haven't looked at this, but um have do you happen to know?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, that type of um, you know, farming.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even want to call it farming, but you know what I mean?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: That type of um it's it's it's actually it's actually called pasture pasture cropping.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that a beautiful name?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Pasture cropping.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and and in fact, I just got an email from Colin.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've been to his farm in Australia.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've done things, we've done presentations together, and um, and he actually just sent me an email uh yesterday, I think.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's finally put all this in a book, in a book, and he he wants me to do a blurb for it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully this the the book which will which will detail the methodology, the model, all this will be available, you know, very, very shortly.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's have I think it'd be great to have him on the show, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Have him talk about his experiences.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Have there been any studies that have analyzed the nutrient content of these plants that he's growing in this manner?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I have no, I have no idea.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't that be interesting?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: It would, it would indeed.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: It would be now there there's a there's a there's another um kind of uh what you know, kissing cousin of this method that's been developed over the over a couple of decades, actually, at the Rodale Research Center in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, which if you know anything about organic gardening and farming, you know that Emmaus, Pennsylvania was the you know, was the germination tray for uh the Rodale Research, the whole Rodale team that developed organic gardening and farming magazine and all that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the Rodale family.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they've been they've been they have developed uh um special machines where you plant, for example, a a cover crop that's also known as a smother crop.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine, imagine an annual that is so dense, uh something like rye and hairy vetch combined.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's just very, very dense.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then rather than either herbiciding it or tilling it in, see, here's the thing nature never tills.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Show me a place in nature where there's tillage.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so um, you know, throughout throughout human civilization's history, the um the tillage component of agriculture has been a real, I don't know, it's been a thorn on our side, you know, it's it's been a real problem for for a long, long time.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh what Rodale has done, they've developed actually some some crimping machines where you actually go and imagine, imagine um a cover crop that's real dense and let's just say six feet tall, all right.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh huge, all right.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you go in with this roller that that has um that has crimp crimpers on it, and you actually roll down and crimp.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not tilling, you're not plowing it in, you're just rolling it on top, and then you plant your uh your your your um your cash crop, you plant your cash crop into that goodness.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, you know, it'll be a it'll be a a six-inch deep mulch of this, you know, this heavy um uh smother crop.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you get this this smother crop which keeps the weeds down, it holds the moisture in.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you can actually, and the I can tell you, I don't know that they've measured the nutrients, but I can tell you that the production, the production of these systems just spins circles around any kind of conventional, you know, uh uh chemical fertilizer till tillage type uh uh material uh or or you know production model.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so uh you know, hopefully those those uh nutritional analyses will uh come on later because because the soil profile you under these systems, the soil profile is so much more vibrant, yeah, because you're not slicing up all the earthworms.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and of course, with no chemicals, you're not chemicalizing the soil biota.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it certainly stands to reason um that I mean, intuitively, you would think that with the full panoply of soil biota, that whole uh microbiome in place, that the the production from it would also be more, you know, more um what more whole, more vibrant.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: So inspiring.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love it every time you talk.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I learned so much.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh Joel, do we have time for one more question or should we want to save that one for next time?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe we ought to save that for next time.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're we're pretty close here and because it's it's not a it's it's a it's a it's a question about marketing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and that could occupy one whole podcast.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just um, you know, how do you how do you you know, I want to start a garden, I want to start more.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get local, how do I get neighbors to buy?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a that's a huge topic, and we probably better wait till next time so we don't we don't overrun our headlights on this.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, that sounds great.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, next time, so we'll we'll pick up on right there.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um we appreciate everybody listening and we appreciate all the questions.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Joel and I do this podcast because, well, number one, we love to have fun and and you know the the friendly banter is fun for us.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we're really here to support people and to encourage people.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we're here for you.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you have questions, please send them in as I get again.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Email them to me.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll also include my email in the show description.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right, thank you as always, Joel, for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: We love you and we appreciate you.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you, Sena.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're so gracious.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us, everybody.