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Normally Podcast: Morning Joe Bends the Knee to President Trump · Normally

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey guys. Here we are back on normally the show
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: with normalists takes so when your news gets weird. I'm
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Mary Katheryne Neham and I'm Carol Markolitz.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: How's it going, Mary, Catherine?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's going good. I went to California and back
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm an old person now, so that means that
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: my back is not doing great, even though I had
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: great seating and great service and few delays. But you know,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just over the hill now. Yeah, it's
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I need a heating pad. I'm gonna be fine. Also,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: my husband is out of town, and now I am
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: bereft of all the things that I need in this
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: house because, as you and I have discussed, I have
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: an effective husband, Like he's just like a logistics officer,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and he understands the flow of goods in and out
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: of this house in a way that I do not.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: And I went downstairs, I was like, there's no food here.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: What am I supposed to do?
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, my husband is also out of town. Less
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: about the because I do the food shopping, but like
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the getting up super early and driving the kids to school,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: that's his job. I had to do it this morning.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: But a nightmare nightmared these kids.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, love to have an effective partner. It's very very
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: helpful help Yeah, so you were fantastic on Real Time.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: You were really good. My favorite clip was the one
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: where you're the only one on the panel who admits
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: to liking McDonald's. Bill Maher's like McDonald's is delicious, and
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Chris Como and I didn't catch the woman's name. Yeah,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: they were like, what, No, it's not, and you were like, yeah,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: It obviously is so Cuomo, I guess like treats his
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: body like a temple. And doctor Casey means who is
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: the other speaker. She has a book out called Good
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Energy that's about metabolic health. I agree with her on
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: basically all of these health issues. It's just that she's
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: much more disciplined than I am. She like lives by
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: her philosophy more than I do. And yeah, I just
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: had to. You could see they cut to my face
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: at one point while everyone on the panel is talking
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: about how seldom they eat McDonald's and it cuts to me,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: and my face is just like should I tell them
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: that I eat it at least once a week? So yes,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: I did you know? I applaud all of them for
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: being so healthy. But I enjoy for sure my fast
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: food and semi moderation.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: So yeah, McDonald's is delicious. I don't have it that often.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I have to admit, I, you know, and not. I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: wouldn't even say for health weason. I just like other
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: fast food better. So I choose, you know, I'll choose
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: that over McDonald's Popeyes, Popeyes.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: See I may as you know, McDonald's, Bojangles and waffle
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: House devotee. So that's that. Yeah, I spread my past. Oh,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I gotta.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Bojangles has such a grip on my thinking of you,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Like anytime I see it, I think of you. Yes,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I think I send you all the time. Anytime I
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: drive via j Angles, Like, look, visit boo Jangles.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I have taken some people on a pilgrimage. It is.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: It is an important part of knowing me. I think
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I still never been. Yeah, we gotta get you, we
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: gotta do it. Yeah all right, See, that's one of
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the things DeSantis needs to do. Get bo Jingles in Florida,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: get on that, on that.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: What are you up to anyway?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: What is he doing with his time?
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: There's not getting us aboard Jangles.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: There's there's some stuff going on. Shall we get to
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the news? Oh well, I want to play us a
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: little bit of a clip of Morning Joe, which is
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: the MSNBC morning show hosted by Miga Berzinski and Joe Scarborough.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And it turns out they had some news this week,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: which is that they went to mar A Lago. Let's
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: hear a little bit about it.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Over the past week, Joe and I have heard from
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: so many people, from political leaders to regular citizens, deeply
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: dismayed by several of President elect Trump's cabinet selections and
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: they are scared. Last Thursday, we expressed our own concerns
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: on this broadcast and even said we would appreciate the
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: opportunity to speak with the President elect himself. On Friday,
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: we were given the opportunity to do just that. Joe
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: and I went to mar A Lago to meet personally
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: with President elect Trump. It was the first time we
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: have seen him in seven years now.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: We talked about a lot of issues, including abortion, mass deportation,
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: threats of political retribution against political opponents and media outlets.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: We talked about that a good bit and it's going
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: to come as no surprise to anybody who watches this
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: show has watched it over the past year or over
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: the past decade, that we didn't see eye to eye
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: on a lot of issues, and we told him so.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: What we did agree on was to restar our communications.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: My father often spoke with world leaders with whom he
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: and the United States profound disagreed. That's a task shared
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: by reporters and commentators alike. We had not spoken to
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: President Trump since March of twenty twenty, other than a
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: personal call Joe made to Trump on the morning after
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: the attempt on his life in Butler, Pennsylvania. In this meeting,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: President Trump was tearful, he was upbeat. He seemed interested
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: in finding common ground with Democrats on some of the
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: most divisive issues. And for those asking why we would
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: go speak to the president elect during such fraught times,
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: especially between US, I guess I would ask back, why
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: wouldn't we? Five years of political warfare has deeply divided
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Washington and the country. We have been as clear as
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: we know how in expressing our deep concerns about President
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: Trump's actions and words in the coursening.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Of public debate.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: But for eighty million Americans, election denialism public trials in
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: January sixth were not as important as the issues that
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: moved them to send Donald Trump back to the White
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: House with their vote. Joe and I realize it's time
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: to do something different, and that starts with not only
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: talking about Donald Trump, but also talking with him.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: All right, yeah, so what's your take on that, Carol,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: after the last nine years of saying that Donald Trump
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: is a grave threat to the democracy? Yeah, so is
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: he Hitler or isn't he.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I just need them to get to the bottom of
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: this for their viewers, not me, obviously, but for the
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: people who watch them all like fifteen of them at
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: this point. So I don't know if I'm a viewer,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I'm mostly thinking, like, what do you really believe?
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: What do you really believe?
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Because if you were concerned about the fall of democracy
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: like two weeks ago, and now you're visiting with guy,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: that's an odd thing to do.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Of course, people like Keith Olberman are taking it super
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: well that they made this visit, and he said he
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: tweeted to political reporters, commentators, liberals, moderates after this fawning, humiliating,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: network destroying surrender. If you go on Morning Joe, you
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: have endorsed and brought into vc m's NBC.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: What are you saying, v she of miss everyc amazing Well,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: and that's the question, right. So, although this is a
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: transparent and self serving move from people who really really
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: loved Donald Trump pre Donald Trump actually becoming the president,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: they sure did, and then really swerved into he's a
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: fascist mode. I think it's better to not wall yourself
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: off from everyone, as Keith Olberman is intent on doing.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I think media outlets like this don't have a lot
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: of viewers and speak to only their own and can't
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: do a great job at even that because they have
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: walled themselves off so much. So on one hand, you
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: know that they didn't really believe he was a fascist,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: and on the other hand, like, maybe this will lead
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to slightly healthier discussions. But the people who make these
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: turns on a dime don't get to tell the rest
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: of us that we're like morally below them. That's that's
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: the part that's so annoying.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: I also I haven't seen and maybe I'm missing it,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: so correct me if I'm wrong. But criticism the opposite. The
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: opposite way is anybody saying Donald Trump should not have
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: sat down with them. I mean I kind of think
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: he shouldn't have, but that's you know, I would say,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not representative of a lot of people at this point.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: So are people mad at him, our mother mad at
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: him for sitting down with them? Or do they just
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: think that this is something an incoming president has to do.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: I saw a few people who were annoyed by it,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: and I get that. I actually think, you know, should
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: you be gracious to people who have been calling you
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a fascist for many many years? Importers, right?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I mean that's sort of the thing for me. It's
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: like one thing to call the politician names, but his
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: supporters have been tacked as you know, hitler loving fascists,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: So I don't know.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the thing to me is that it
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: illustrates every time that Trump or Rogan or Trump's supporters,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: all these people who get such a bad rap for
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: being such terrible blights on the American system aren't actually
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: quite a bit more gracious than the people calling them
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: the things. And it's another reason that people tune out
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: media because Joe Rogan it turns out like, oh, you
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: guys tried super hard. I would love to watch The
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Morning Joe Archives on the Joe Rogan two week Cancel Fest.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Joe Rogan is like, yeah, everyone comes on my podcast, Sure,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: come on my podcast, even though all of you thought
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: I was trash two years Yeah, and Drum's like, come
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: on down tomorrow, Lago, I guess have a nice meal.
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: Like I gotta tell you, I don't have that graciousness personally.
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: I look, I could disagree with people and not close
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: their eyes out, and I think actually that should be
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: what you do is have civil disagreement. I have, you know,
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: people in public life that I disagree with on a
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: lot of things, but we could still remain friendly. We
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: could even have arguments and debates and still remain friendly
• 10:44
  Speaker 5: all of that.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: But if you cross me, if you really cross me,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I can't be like that. I just I cannot. I
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: could never sit down with somebody who would think some
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: hitler and who has spent four years telling the country
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: that and Joe Rogan such a person than me, because
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: if you try to get me fired and people have
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I don't forget that. I won't be like, oh, okay,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: we're on the same side now, like no, we're not right.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: That dude is so laid back now I do think
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: that Trump, more than Rogan, probably has his own plan
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: here for having a chat tape those two.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Including does he need them they've lost fifty percent of
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: their audience since election day. I don't know. I don't
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: think he really needs them.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: I think no. I think part of the plan is
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: just enjoying having them come and have to do this.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I get it. That would be all he's getting out
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: of it, because, like you said, there isn't a lot
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: of viewership or power at this point to offer on
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: that front. Can I mention a couple of media reform
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: ideas from Brian Stelter?
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Please?
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Shall shall we run through whether these would work? Yeah?
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: So Brian Stelter, CNN longtime media reporter, has some suggestions.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: He says, I'll just run through a couple of them.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Listen to young people and learn from their media habits. HM.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: So this is like, you know, I guess lean into
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the tiktoking and the h isn't that in the podcast?
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: The whole problem with the Kamala Harris campaign that they're
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: trying to blame on the young people and listening to
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: them and their terrible ideas, like young people don't know anything?
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Well, listening to young people.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Well, and it's like there's two different kinds of meeting
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: people where they are, which is another of his suggestions. Right,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump went to these podcasts where these young men
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: were listening. He had a Twitch stream where people were streaming.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: But when he went to those places, he wasn't a
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: different character, right, He wasn't doing a bit for these people.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: He was just Donald Trump in a new place. I
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: think her attempt was to be this commodified Kamala in
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: a different way on whatever platform they put her on,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: and that actually didn't work. A couple more make content
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: for casual news consumers and those turned off by politics.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: This is basically the Rogan model, because Rogan talks about
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: life and interesting things, and politics sort of weaves in
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: and out of it. Here's my favorite, though, I'm just
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: pop the media bubbles, Carol. Many news consumers and a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: good number of journalists think national news coverages to Washington
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: centric No way. Maybe. CNN's Donio Sullivan commented last week
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: the media collectively spent too much time obsessing about polling
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and not enough time talking to people. The Sullivan and
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: other correspondence interviewed voters all election sies long, but those
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: conversations and focus groups should inform editorial decisions in panel discussions.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Here's another idea. Hire anyone who disagrees with.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: You, anyone without any anyone, like literally anything. Right now,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: the big conversation around Pete Hagseath is that he is
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: cross as a Christian, nationalist, white supremacist whatever. I'm like,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: they don't have any Christians in the newsrooms, and that's
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: why they don't know what this cross is.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I'm the only reason I really.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Know what the cross is as a Jewish person. It's
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: the Jerusalem Cross. A lot of times Christians will get
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the cross tattooed on themselves when they pilgrim to Jerusalem.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Our friend Dave Marcus on the Israel trip that we
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: went on, got the tattoo. I feel this tattoo parlor
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: in the world, and he has the Jerusalem Cross, and
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: so I you know, I might find yourself one Christian
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: to have in the newsroom will tell you about this,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: or a Jew who's met Christians. I don't know.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they have to get away from the
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: idea like for some for some of these folks, when
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: they reveal that they don't know what the Jerusalem crosses
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: to them, that's a feature, not a bug. Like That's
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: like they're like, well, I'm not a Christian, this isn't that. Yeah,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: not that, Like I would never signal that I understand
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: things outside of my cleansed, sanitized left leg circle. It's like, well, no,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: you should know the facts you think are icky are
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: actually good. To know that it would it would prevent
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you from making a fool of yourself. So I found
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: that one very interesting. Greg's sargent is another left leaning
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: reporter who's gone to Rick Wilson of the Lincoln Project
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: for a post mortem on Republican thoughts and how to
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: reform the media. And I'm just like, he's y'alls now.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, yeah, he belongs to you.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Rick Wilson is not the guy right to get the
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: temperature on how you might reach the people you've lost.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: You paid him to lose them for you, right, That's.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Say it's crazy because they just keep
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: doing this. They're just like but he says he's a Republican, like,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: but nothing else about him is Republican. He did not
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: vote for the Republican at this time, not last time.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: He wants not just Donald Trump, he wants other Republican
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: candidates to lose. And that was a big eye opener
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: for me after twenty sixteen, because I think a lot
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: of the people who were like Trump skeptical, we were
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: all sort of on one side, and then a whole
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: bunch of them were like, and we want to destroy
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: all Republicans, and we're like, wait a minute, hold on,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I don't want that. So, you know, like a great
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: example is actually gup her descent. Is they all despise him,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: even though him and Trump, you know, clearly were butting
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: heads and opposing each other. But it didn't matter. We're
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: going to take a short break and come right back with.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Normally speaking of like this type of doubling down. I
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: believe we have an update on Representative Seth Moulton, who
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: is we pointed out as one of the brave souls
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: who stepped forward and said, hey, maybe like biological dudes
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: should not be playing on sports teams with all my daughters. Yeah,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: and that's like a very sensible thing that most Americans
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: believe at seventy plus percent, And yet they came after
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: him for saying this, and they didn't just come after
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: them Carroll. There was a rally in Salem, Massachusetts, perfect
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: place to burn the witch earned the witch. It was
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: what was it called, like a no hate for neighbors
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: or something like that rally, And I just it's amazing
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: that this is the reaction to so simple a pushback.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Right right And going back to the media, do they
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: have people in their newsrooms, commentators who will tell them
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: this is not a controversial issue. This is actually a
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: lopsided position that most of America takes. I don't know.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: There was an exchange recently, I think on CNN where
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the Republican was saying something about trans girls sports and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: one of the other panelists would not allow him say
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: anything about it because those girls are girls. They're girls,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: they are judge girls who happened to have been born boys,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: but not allowed to talk about it, and it's transphobic
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: if you even talk about it. And his point got
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: stepped on because the you know, the panelists would not
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: let him speak.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think people are on that side in particular,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: are petrified to talk about this. I think all of
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: us at some point have been worried, particularly during twenty twenty.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: It got so shareshed and there are very brave and
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: uncancellable people who went first, like JK Rowling.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Abel She I just feel like deserves so much praise.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: She put that issue on the map for a lot
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: of people, and she was very brave in writing her
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: book about it. It was just, you know, I think
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that what she did was extremely bold in time. At
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the time she did it, so many people now, uh,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: we'll take the positions that Abigail Streyer took years ago
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: or JK Rowling, But they did it when nobody else
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: was on their side and deserve the praise for it and.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Did it boldly, and that is what allows other people
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to talk about it. But now we're here at like again.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: This is a thing that if you run in elite circles,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: you will convince yourself is wrong to say or hateful
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: or out of the mainstream, when in fact it is not.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And the media, being in these elite circles and completely
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: walled up, must learn.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: What is normal right and what to mos out the
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: country right. And so again, the idea that these media
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: outlets have learned anything like it really means to be seen.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I think I keep seeing they're doing layoffs at a
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: lot of different places. It's really you know, I'm sad
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: for those people losing their jobs. I would see again, though,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: if you had more balance, if you had different voices,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: if you didn't treat these outlets as if they were
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: a political operation, they would do better. You would widen
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: your audience, you would expand the base, as it were.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: So you know, that would be my advice to any
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: media outlet hoping to grow.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and to get out of this idea, this denial
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: of the fact that that's where you are, because sometimes
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: they'll just say, as as Brian says, like pop the bubble,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: but not by actually hiring anybody right hop the bubble,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: by going out and talking to these people more often,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: which I think would help. But there are people right
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: in this town or any other town where a media
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: organization resides, where you could just like have people on
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: staff it is. That's a real thing you can do.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: That's a step you can take. Oh my goodness, shall
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: we do some transition news? And I'm interested, Carol on
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: some things you like in what you're seeing here.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I continue to like I mean, we talked about
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: it last week. But the Pete hag Seth pick remains
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: at the top of the list for me, I think
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: he's a fantastic choice, and I just like that he
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: is out of the box. Having said that, obviously, some
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: of the other out of the box picks are not
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: my favorite. I'm generally kind of suspicious of Vivek and RFK.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: I just see them as liberals and I get that
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: they were part of the package, and I fully understand
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: them being chosen for different roles because that's what Trump
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: said he was going to do. But for me, that's
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: not really at the top of the list. And I
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: would say also just in general, I voted for Donald Trump,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: and I said it was a pro civilization vote, and
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: so for me that meant a lot of different things,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: including the border and including not as much to even
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: support for Israel as allowing Israel to do what it
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: needs to do to defeat their enemies. And I have
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: so far been very satisfied on these two points specifically.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of with you on the RFK pick
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: or the Gates pick, where I'm like, what I'm looking
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: for is someone who is a reformer and has a
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: record of sort of being able to clobber an agency
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: like this, being able to wrap your mind around it.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: And I think that one of the things I've learned
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: is not effective and the media has not learned. Although
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: these things should be covered well, the media hasn't learned
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: is that you can't just come out the gates and
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: be like unacceptable, right, these people are not normal picks. Yeah,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, great. Uh. I don't know if
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you notice, but a third of people voted for total upheaval. Yeah,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: so their scale is going to be different than you're
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: you know, I've been in Washington for twenty five years scale. Okay,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: so let's like actually evaluate people instead of jumping on that.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: With Gates, I look at the dust up with the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Speaker of the House where he unseated Kevin McCarthy. But
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: then there wasn't really a plan for the next part
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, and the Republicans ended up without a
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: speaker sort of non functional for an extended period of time.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: And I go, okay, how does that translate to like
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: really getting the DOJ control which it needs. So that's
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: those are my concerns, and I don't want to couch
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: them only in personal attacks or oh, you're the sort
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: of moral failings and that kind of thing. Because I
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: don't drink it's effective, and I'm not sure it matters
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: to voters so that, but on the front of things
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: that I love this idea that I do not think
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: has been confirmed yet, but I'm just going to keep hoping.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Of Doctor j abouticharia Ye to NIH, the National Institutes
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: of Health is so good. She's a longtime critic of NIH.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Under Francis Collins, the former head. He was in fact
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: like attacked and censored by the government and by the
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: former head of NIH for his criticisms. He was a
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: member of the they sometimes called themselves Team Reality or
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the Great Barrington Decoration group that had the crazy idea
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: that during a pandemic we should follow the plans that
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: every civilized and free nation has ever followed in the past,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: which is the least disruption possible and those new ones
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: and the most liberty possible, particularly for those who are
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: not very vulnerable to the disease. For this, he took
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of heat, a lot of career danger for him,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: despite I'm sure being tenured at Stanford, but this was
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: like a huge thing to go out on a limb about.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: He is measured, he is smart, he is mollified, he
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: is kind. Regularly goes back and forth with critics in
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: productive ways. Uh, And honestly, would that be worth my vote?
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Just right there? It would right like, I just I
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: love how poetic it is. I love him. I think
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: it's a great idea.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: He's fantastic. I that would be a very exciting pick.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I know that my Governor DeSantis floated our surgeon General
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Joseph Ladappo for that role as well. I'd obviously be
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: happy with either one. I kind of want to keep
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Ladavo in Florida.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know why.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I don't need to be too many people from Florida.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I just like pretty far people alone enough.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I actually forgot you of your people.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's up with that, but they I
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: actually forgot about Matt Gates and original conversation here. He
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: was nominated shortly after our last episode aired, where you
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: and I said that Trump will probably have some picks
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: that were not happy. I think, right. So, yeah, the
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: thing about Gates, I keep forgetting about him because I
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: don't think he's going to get a support I don't
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: think he's going to pass through the confirmation process. I'm,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: you know, ready to be wrong, but I just he
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: has pissed a lot of people off. And while I
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: understand that that's an enjoyable part of the Donald Trump administration,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: the saint people off, you still need the support of
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: your colleagues in order to make it make it through.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: So I don't know. I guess he's my top. I
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: don't think he's going to make it through.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Pick.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Tulsi not sure if if she makes it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: But we'll see on that one.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, though, people they keep turning out
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: to knock each of these nominations is liable to make
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: people more friendly to them, right, So yeah, So so
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: is it Brennan who was out saying that Tulsi Gabbard
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: is unacceptable? And it's like, my dude, you lied to
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Congress and you've admitted it, and you spied on members
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: of Congress and lied about it, and so I just
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: think like, at this point, your disfavor is a mark
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: in her column for a lot of people sit this one.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: They keep doing this with nominees. It's like, Oh, let's
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: go get all the establishment types who've betrayed you in
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the past to say that this person's terrible, and the
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: lad's gonna fly. Yeah, the way that they might.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Hope. Right, the not acceptable to them is acceptable to
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of people, So you're you're right, that is
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a strange strategy for them when Americans clearly voted for
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: change and not the same bureaucrats and not the same people. Upheaval,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Like you said, absolute upheaval is what a lot of
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: people want.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: I'm just looking for people who make people pissed off
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: and are productive, Like, yeah, that's a heart It's honestly
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: sort of a hard combo. People who are outside the mainstream,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: who have been brave enough to buck the system and
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: also can just really get some stuff done. That is myry,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that's my sweet spot, yep, and have.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: The vision and the ability to make it happen. It's just, yeah,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: all of us are hoping for the best. I think,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I hope. I think a lot of these picks are that.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I think they're motivated for the change that people chose.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I think too. You and I have talked about this. Look,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I'm as as you point out, some of our issues
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: with nominees will be that they're liberals. Yeah right, that's the.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Top of my list problems with people that Trump picks liberals,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: So, and that was my concern about Donald Trump juree
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, same grum, same But we also must
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: acknowledge that we're not the only people in the coalition.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: It's a color limited fact. We ain't in the driver's
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: seat coalition. Yeah, And I think if you don't come
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: to grips with that, you don't get anything out of
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the coalition. So I'm just there are gonna be things
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: that I like. I like the idea of the Maha movement.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: I'm a little bit of a crunchy mom myself, and
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: despite my love of fast food, it's a I'm I'm
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: full of mysteries, Carol contradictions everywhere. But is RFK my person? No?
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But I think he's gonna have a lot of popular
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: support from people whose support I understand for that kind
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: of upheaval. And this is a new group of folks,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: many of whom are not ideological conservatives, right, many of
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: whom are just sometimes left leaning populists. You didn't feel
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: at home in the Democratic Party and they lost them
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: to us, So here we are.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Donald Trump is a moderate, and that has been
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: one of my ongoing problems with him. A lot of
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: his kind of off the cuff answers. One of the
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: ones that I point to a lot is the one
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: where he's He was on the All In podcast and
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: they were talking immigration and he said he would give
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: a green card to every college graduate who came to
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: America to study. And I was like, what, No, And
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: he ended up walking that back. But his impulse a
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: lot of the time are very moderate positions, and I
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: want someone further.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: To the right.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I want right, you know, I want a conservative. Do
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: we have that? No, you said, we're not in the
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: driver's seat. I fully agree. But the first few days
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: of Picks, I was a little bit like, all these people.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute, I'm not supposed to love all these people,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: but they do. They're all so great.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: But that's how we knew we were gonna get bitt
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: in the ass. Right after that podcast, Oh it is
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: what it is, right far, you know what? And also
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: John Bones Jones at the UFC doing the Trump dance
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: in front of Trump, that whole ridiculous entourage, Elon poulsy RFK,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, Dada White. I gotta say I'm a sucker
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: for it, like the lust, the content that I'm here
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: for and the silly dance. I think is more powerful
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: than maybe first glance, like because it's this is the
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: zeitgeist yea, And people like Joe and Mika or Kamala
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: asking Beyonce or Oprah to do events for her and
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: paying them a lot money is not governing the zeitgeist
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: right now, right something, real.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Time, in a long time. It's not on the left
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: and it is. It's amazing, It's a cultural phenomenon. I
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: would also again be prepared for all of this to collapse.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we'll be right back on normally. I don't
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: know if we want to talk about this, but you know, yeah, sure.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Ali said that his pick for who Trump will have
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: them public blow up with is RFK. I believe see it.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: He's number one for me. Also, I think if Trump
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: is going to have a you know, all out, drag
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: out fight with one of his people, I think RFK
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: would be my pick as well. Yeah.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I think there's a big question of whether this coalition
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: survives without Trump at the head of it as sort
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: of the symbol of it, yeah, or if it even
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: survives within this administration. Because while you're serving Carol and
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: me with a couple of picks and I'm in the
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: middle on a couple more and this other group is
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: being served, the more isolationist group or the more the
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: more Maha group is being served with others. Are you
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: delivering for each of those concipencies in ways that they
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: think matter and sometimes those are in conflict?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely?
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Yeahs gonna be a little tricky, but I do think
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: that people will look at those moments like the UFC
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: and realize, oh, it's not just me who voted.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: For Trump, right, there's a bitch people around me who
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: might have Yeah. People keep asking also why JD. Vans
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: is not there, and I've obviously, as any parent with
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: small children could tell you, he is home with the kids.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I mean that he's been on the road.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Hey whatever, Yeah, so right, but he should take.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Over the mantle of dancing into the.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: UFC fights In four years, like we'll see, the kids
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: will be older.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: So I mean, look, if Mike Johnson can make that trek,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: he was so great. I do's a former like Goody
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: two shoes who ran with a worst who ran with
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: kind of a sketchy crowd. I was always the good
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: kid in a bad crowd. So I was like, yeah,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I'll be your d D or whatever, and I looked
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: at Mike Johnson and I saw myself. I was like, Yes,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I was in a marching band uniform twenty minutes ago,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: but now I'm at the party.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Amazing visual. That's a really good one. I like that
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: a lot for our final segment today that in case
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: you missed it segment. There's an ongoing story about FEMA
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: having skipped houses in Florida with MAGA signs in front,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: and the woman who wrote the directive they put this
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: in writing, Mary Catherine. This isn't like I hearsay. It's
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: like literally in their official documents, like don't go to
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: if there's a Trump sign, skip the house. Her name
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: is Marnie Washington, and she is not playing the fall guy.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: She's saying no, I got this direction from above, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I passed it on to the people working for me.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: But I did not come up with it. And she's
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: not going down alone. I want to see people fired.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I want to see people punished. I think this is
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: like the rot that people want moved in our country.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: The fact that somebody could even put that in writing
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and never wonder how affected people will be about something
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: like this, The fact that people blindly followed orders and
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: did skip palses with Trump signs. All of it is
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: a real concerning thing to me, and I think this
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: story should be a gigantic story. The fact is not
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: is a real problem. I think Marnie Washington needs to,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: you know, probably be arrested for this dereliction of duty.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: And it's got to go above her as well. Yeah.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: No, I think there should be very real punishments, probably
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: legal ones here for this kind of behavior. And as
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I say with Trump when he's talking about the Justice
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Department or whatever, you're not paranoid if they're out to
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: get you. And the fact is that a lot of
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: things people on the right, particularly Trump supporters, believe about
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: how people in the elite spheres or in the government
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: view them, are correct, Like they're not incorrect about this stuff.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: And if this was a directive, by the way, one
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: of the reasons that she has noted that it was
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: that it was a directive is because they do this thing,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: which is those people are dangerous and so in order
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: not to endanger our employees, we must avoid those people.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So it's just like very sneaky thing where they're safetysming
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: half of the country out of services.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: In Florida, you're gonna have a lot of Trump supporters,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: so yes.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: I should say more than half are. And in western
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: North Carolina you're gonna have like sixty five percent of
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Trump supporters. But they use that to hang their hat on.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: It's like, see, these people are threatening, which is why
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: we can't serve them. And that is a frankly sort
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: of like emotionally abusive thing where it's like I'm just
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: putting this on you and then I'm depriving you of
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: services because I have imagined that you are dangerous to me.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: And that is just so so gross, such a betrayal
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: of what they're supposed to be doing, because look, part
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: of doing this kind of work is that it is dangerous,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Like inherently you're in a disaster area. So if safetyism
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: is their issue on any front, like you obviously want
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: to be responsible, but this is insane stuff. To take
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: your ideological fear and turn it into this that's.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Right, and to take it back to our first topic.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: You know, it was the media who spread this fear,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: who made them afraid of people with Trump signs and
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: made those people believe that you know, they were in danger,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: just coming into contact with these white nationalists lunatics, so
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: the media there's a lot of responsibility for this. Again,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I would like to see consequences. I don't think that
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: we can move forward when people are being treated this way,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: and I'd love to see a brighter future for this
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: country and I like to see that change in a
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: real big way in the next few years.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I will see you the next side of females.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, that's right. Thanks for joining us on
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays, and you can subscribe
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: at Normallythepod at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: when things get weird, act normally