Latest / The Science Diplomat / S1E4: Jan Marco Müller on science diplomacy, strategy, and the politics of evidence

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S1E4: Jan Marco Müller on science diplomacy, strategy, and the politics of evidence · The Science Diplomat

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to The
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Science Diplomat Podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Science diplomacy is often talked
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: about as a feel good
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: collaboration.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Scientists shake hands across
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  SPEAKER_00: borders, but increasingly
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: it's becoming more grittier.
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  SPEAKER_00: Systems, strategy,
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  SPEAKER_00: and how does knowledge actually
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: survive the journey into high-stakes
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: decision-making?
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  SPEAKER_00: Today, we're joined by someone who
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: has spent the last two decades
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: building those very systems
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: within the European Union.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jan-Marco Müller has been the
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: first in many rooms, from the
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  SPEAKER_00: chief scientific advisors' office to
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: the European External Action
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Service.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're diving into what happens when
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy moves from a lay
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: practice into a formal policy
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  SPEAKER_00: that 27 different nations have
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: to agree on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Jan-Marco, welcome to the show.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to start with your
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: trajectory.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: You began in geography
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: and moved into the heart of E.U.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: policy.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Was there a specific moment
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  SPEAKER_00: where you realized that scientific
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  SPEAKER_00: evidence wasn't really reaching the
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: right desks?
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  SPEAKER_00: And you had to be the one to build
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  SPEAKER_00: that bridge?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hello, and thanks for the
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: invitation to this podcast.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as I say, I studied geography,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have a PhD in geography, so I feel
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: both being a natural and a
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: social scientist, and being able to
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: talk to all scientific disciplines,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I think is an important skill
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  SPEAKER_01: in that context.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it was clear for me, I'm
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: never going to be a 100% researcher.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was always interested in, you
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: know, how science makes an impact on
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: society and on policy.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I, after my PhD,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I went to first into science
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  SPEAKER_01: management to basically
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: learn a little bit the basics of
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  SPEAKER_01: how science works
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  SPEAKER_01: around stakeholder relations,
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  SPEAKER_01: science communications, and all the
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: rest of it.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then went into the area of
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: science advice to policymaking.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And my observation at the time was,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, there was a lot of science
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: advice happening, but it
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: was very technical in a sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: And obviously providing advice
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: to a kind of, for
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: instance, technical agency or
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: ministry is something different than
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: providing scientific advice to an
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  SPEAKER_01: elected politician.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they are the ones who ultimately
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  SPEAKER_01: take the decisions.
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  SPEAKER_02: In those earlier
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  SPEAKER_02: days, what did the interface
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  SPEAKER_02: really look like between
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  SPEAKER_02: science and diplomacy?
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  SPEAKER_02: Was it a formal report
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  SPEAKER_02: or formal discussion, or
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  SPEAKER_02: more of a conversation in a hallway
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  SPEAKER_02: before a vote?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, obviously, I was initially
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: just in science advice.
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  SPEAKER_01: I went into science diplomacy a
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: little bit later.
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  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it was very, as I
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: said, technical in a sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, there were reports being
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  SPEAKER_01: produced.
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  SPEAKER_01: There were expert meetings being
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  SPEAKER_01: organized and you know a
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  SPEAKER_01: lot around you know standards and
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: definitions and measurements and
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: all these sorts of things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this a little bit changed
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  SPEAKER_01: then at least in the European
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Commission when President
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  SPEAKER_01: Barroso at the time decided to
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  SPEAKER_01: establish the role of chief
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  SPEAKER_01: scientific advisor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I at the time worked for the
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  SPEAKER_01: Joint Research Center, the JRC,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is the science service of
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: the European Commission, which has
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: been around actually since 1957
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  SPEAKER_01: already, but got its kind
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  SPEAKER_01: of policy support mission in
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  SPEAKER_01: the 1980s,
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  SPEAKER_01: and had a role basically
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  SPEAKER_01: to provide the evidence to
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  SPEAKER_01: underpin legislation.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't mandated actually
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  SPEAKER_01: to talk to the high-level
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  SPEAKER_01: politicians.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what President Barroso
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  SPEAKER_01: wanted to change when he installed
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  SPEAKER_01: the office of a chief science
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  SPEAKER_01: advisor and I had the
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: honor to be actually the first staff
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  SPEAKER_01: member there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this actually
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  SPEAKER_01: changed it quite a lot because
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  SPEAKER_01: a chief science advisor is a person
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  SPEAKER_01: of confidence.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's the famous single number to
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  SPEAKER_01: dial for a politician.
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  SPEAKER_01: And very often politicians, they
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  SPEAKER_01: don't need the extensive briefings
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  SPEAKER_01: also.
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  SPEAKER_01: They just want to have somebody to
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  SPEAKER_01: talk to.
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  SPEAKER_01: 'Can you tell me what
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: is your opinion about this?
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  SPEAKER_01: Does it make sense?'
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's the
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  SPEAKER_01: advantage of having actually an
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  SPEAKER_01: individual science advisor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the other role of a
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  SPEAKER_01: chief science advisor is basically
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  SPEAKER_01: to give a face to science also
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  SPEAKER_01: in the public.
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is very important in the
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  SPEAKER_01: context of communications.
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  SPEAKER_00: You described yourself as the first
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  SPEAKER_00: person to define science diplomacy
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  SPEAKER_00: for regulatory purposes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was wondering what did you
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  SPEAKER_00: have to make
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  SPEAKER_00: explicit that I guess previously
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  SPEAKER_00: has been quite left implicit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, as you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in 2025, the European Commission
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  SPEAKER_01: published an expert report
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  SPEAKER_01: called the European Framework for
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Science Diplomacy, which was
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  SPEAKER_01: actually developed by scientists and
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: diplomats in working groups.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there was even a working group
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  SPEAKER_01: dealing with the question of
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  SPEAKER_01: the definition of science diplomacy.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's quite interesting to see
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  SPEAKER_01: that actually the report doesn't
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  SPEAKER_01: provide any definition.
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  SPEAKER_01: It stopped
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  SPEAKER_01: short of providing a definition
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  SPEAKER_01: because, you know, people were
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: saying, you know, it's a minefield
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: going into this, because there
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: are so many definitions around.
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  SPEAKER_01: And of course, many stick to the old
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  SPEAKER_01: AAAS-Royal Society definition of
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  SPEAKER_01: 2010.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is 'science for diplomacy,'
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  SPEAKER_01: 'science in diplomacy,' et cetera.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that definition was designed
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  SPEAKER_01: for a world that doesn't exist
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  SPEAKER_01: anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today's world is different,
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  SPEAKER_01: where we see a lot of trust
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  SPEAKER_01: being eroded between nations,
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  SPEAKER_01: where we see groundbreaking
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  SPEAKER_01: technology driving international
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  SPEAKER_01: relations.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this of course has changed also
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  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy and what is
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  SPEAKER_01: regarded as science diplomacy.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I always say science diplomacy
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  SPEAKER_01: is not about being nice to each
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: other.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the building
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  SPEAKER_01: bridges and keeping
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: channels open is and continues
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  SPEAKER_01: to be an important part of science
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  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy.
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  SPEAKER_01: But science diplomacy is also about
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  SPEAKER_01: defending your interests or
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: defending sovereignty.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is about your values and
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: this, and now when I was
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: tasked to develop
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: a new Council recommendation
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  SPEAKER_01: on the European Framework for
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Science Diplomacy, I had to come up
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  SPEAKER_01: with a definition.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because it's a
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  SPEAKER_01: legal document, and with a legal
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  SPEAKER_01: document you need to define what
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  SPEAKER_01: you're talking about.
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  SPEAKER_01: So there was no way around to come
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  SPEAKER_01: up with a definition.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I needed one that is both short
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  SPEAKER_01: and operational and that reflects a
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  SPEAKER_01: little bit also this change.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the definition
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  SPEAKER_01: provided is that science diplomacy
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  SPEAKER_01: is the direct or indirect use of
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  SPEAKER_01: science, scientific evidence,
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  SPEAKER_01: scientific cooperation to support
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  SPEAKER_01: diplomatic objectives at
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: different levels.
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  SPEAKER_01: So global, European, national,
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  SPEAKER_01: as well as deployment of diplomacy
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  SPEAKER_01: to support scientific progress.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what you very clearly see there,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's defined as an instrument
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  SPEAKER_01: in the diplomatic toolkit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it serves the diplomatic
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  SPEAKER_01: purposes, first and foremost.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is also about diplomacy
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  SPEAKER_01: supporting science, when you think
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  SPEAKER_01: of international research
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  SPEAKER_01: infrastructures, but first and
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: foremost, it is really serving
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  SPEAKER_01: diplomatic purposes.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Continuing with the
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: EU framework and
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  SPEAKER_03: the expert report that you worked on
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: last year, what real problems
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: or gaps in European science
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  SPEAKER_03: diplomacy made this
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  SPEAKER_03: formal framework necessary?
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  SPEAKER_03: What was working well
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  SPEAKER_03: enough before and what was actually
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  SPEAKER_03: at stake in agreeing on
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  SPEAKER_03: this definition?
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  SPEAKER_03: Can we just go back to that.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, as you know, the European
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Union consists of 27
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  SPEAKER_01: member states.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And foreign and security
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  SPEAKER_01: policy is a national sovereign
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  SPEAKER_01: policy.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have coordination at EU
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: level, but we have unanimity
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: principle in foreign security
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: policy.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And now with the increasing
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: geopolitical pressures around us,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: be they from Russia, from China,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: from the changes we see in the
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: United States,
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  SPEAKER_01: we need to get our act together as
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Europeans.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the point is, in science
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy, member states come
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: from very different starting
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: positions.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some of them have had
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: a science diplomacy strategy already
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: 15 years or 10
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: years.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Some are still discovering what
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy actually is.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are different understandings.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is science diplomacy about promoting
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: your country as a place to
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: do research?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it about using your diaspora
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: scientists as ambassadors?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it about funding projects
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: about water management in
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: the Jordan Valley?
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  SPEAKER_01: They're very different approaches.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what we've seen, let's
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: say, there's a conscience,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: actually we need science diplomacy
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  SPEAKER_01: as a strategic tool in
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: our foreign relations.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to come up, all be
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: on the same page, everybody.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually what we try to
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: achieve with this council
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: recommendation for a European
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Framework for Science Diplomacy.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I want to find out from
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: you really more what it felt like
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: to be the penholder and
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: the first person in the world to
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: write, to define science diplomacy
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: for regulatory purposes.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: the guy, you've got to write
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: this, and as you were just saying,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: you've got to do this for 27
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: different countries.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen you also talking in
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: other settings about it wasn't
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: just 27 diplomatic
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: agencies, you had to talk to the
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: research stations.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it was 54 all combined.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the point.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the Commission was tasked
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: five years ago by the Council, so
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: by the 27 member states, to develop
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: what was called at the time a
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: European science diplomacy agenda.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I work now for DG
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Research and Innovation, which is
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: the body that defines European
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: research policy and that runs
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: obviously the Horizon Europe
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: program.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I got the task to develop this.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked at the tasks and
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I found a
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: number of challenges.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: The first one being that scientists
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: and diplomats wouldn't even agree
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: what Europe is.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because for diplomats, it's the EU
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: 27, the
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Common Foreign and Security Policy.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: For scientists,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: it is the European Research Area
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: with everybody between Iceland and
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Israel.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: We have the many stakeholders you
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: mentioned.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I need to talk to
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: 27 research ministries, 27
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: foreign ministries, all the research
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: organizations, the research
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: stakeholders.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Then, of course, the institutional
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: architecture doesn't make it
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: easy.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I said earlier, foreign security
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: policies, national sovereign policy.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Research policy is a shared
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: competence between European Union
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: member states.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Put on top of this, of course, that
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: scientists and diplomats speak
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: different languages and jargons.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, also, languages
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: in a linguistic sense is
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: an important aspect here,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: because English is the lingua franca
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: of science and French is the lingua
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: franca of diplomacy.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if you take the term science
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy, there's two nouns,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: but la diplomatie scientifique in
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: French is a noun and an adjective.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So just by translation you get a
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: very different notion into it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was clear for me from the
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: outset, this only is going to
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: work if you build it bottom up
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: in an inclusive manner and
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: really kind of getting everybody on
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: board.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the way to do it,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: what we did is, we established these
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: working groups by an open
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: call.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: We had an open call out there.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: We told people you're not
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: representing your country or your
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: institution.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: We want you as experts.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we had scientists and diplomats
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: applying, and we established working
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: groups.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the trick was, each working
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: group was co-chaired by a scientist
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: and a diplomat.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And also the composition of the
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: working groups was 50-50 roughly
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: between scientists and the
• 11:39
  diplomats.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because that I felt was
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: always the dilemma of
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy in the past.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: You could go to any event on science
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy, 90% of the people in the
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: room were scientists, or people
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: from funding agencies or research
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: ministries.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: The diplomats were missing at the
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: table.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So actually we need to force the two
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: camps to come in equal numbers
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: together.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then we basically locked them
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: into a room and told them, 'Please
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: talk to each other, understand each
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: other.'
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I can
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: tell you the debates I enjoyed
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: the most were the debates around
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: like-mindedness, and who's
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: like-minded and not like-minded in
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: this world.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating debates if you have
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: scientists and diplomats discussing
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: this.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And basically we told them,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: 'You need to come up with
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: recommendations, bottom up, jointly
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: developed by scientists and
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: diplomats.'
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that was then
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: the expert report published last
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: year, and this of course then served
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: as a basis which I could use then
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: to actually develop a legal
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: text for this council
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: recommendation.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just to follow up on that
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: and to extrapolate from what you're
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: saying, you know, in the English,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: as you point out, there are two
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: nouns, and in French, there is one
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: noun, and the
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: adjective is scientific.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So the noun in diplomacy,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, your implication is that
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: ultimately it's about the diplomacy,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: or that's the
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: driving part of what
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: we're talking about here.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: So in that setting,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know, since
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: we're recording this at a time of,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know, we've got a war in Europe,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: there's technology competition, and
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: now we've got an energy crisis and
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: war in the Middle East.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how does this diplomatic
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: framework apply?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And is this new EU framework,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know, does the EU framework only
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: really work in peacetime?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Or can
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: it work as a strategic response to
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: what
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: is going on now?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in fact, it has to
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: be a strategic tool.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise there's no point in doing
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: it.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can discuss all
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: day long about all the great things
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: science can do when we talk
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: across borders, when there are wars
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: raging and there are sanctions
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: applied, even by scientific
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: organizations themselves
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: becoming diplomatic players.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we see, for instance, the Belgian
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: universities saying we are not going
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: to work anymore with Israeli
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: universities.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually see it is not just
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: in the diplomatic sphere but also in
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: the scientific sphere.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we really need to turn
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy into a very
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: practical tool in the diplomatic
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: toolkit.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, I understand when
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: there are concerns,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: for instance, among scientists that
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: we don't want to be
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: instrumentalized, et cetera.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And my argument is that
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: that's exactly precisely why you
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: need to engage with diplomats,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: because otherwise the decisions will
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: be taken without you.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to discuss with
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: diplomats the thorny issues,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: such as sanctions regimes, for
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: instance, you know, because
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: they have implications of course on
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: science, but at the same time, of
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: course, there are very valid reasons
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: from the diplomatic side why we
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: apply sanctions, because we
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: try to achieve a foreign policy
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: goal.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: These issues, they need to be put on
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: a table and they need be discussed.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think one catalyst,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: or let's say two catalysts in all
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: of this, is first the groundbreaking
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: technologies
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: that are being rolled out.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think of artificial intelligence,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: but think of course also of
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: non-digital technologies, biotech,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: nanotech, et cetera, which are
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: driving international relations and
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: international competition.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the second one, as an
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: eye-opener, was COVID.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's where, you know, diplomats
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: noticed, oops, when you want to
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: manage a global pandemic, it's not
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: enough to talk to a foreign and
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: security policy think tank.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You need to talk to quite weird
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: disciplines in science.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And of course this means we need
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: to get the two sides together and
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: discuss these issues.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's also what
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: triggered in a way the development
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: which we've seen in the European
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Union, that more and more member
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: states are developing science
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy strategies.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what I find actually most
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: interesting, more and more member
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: states are strengthening scientific
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: technological capacities in the
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: ministries of foreign affairs.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: So in the meantime there are 20 out
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: of the 27 members that have either
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: appointed a chief science advisor
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: in the ministry of foreign affairs
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: or a special envoy for science
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy or created a
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: division or unit on science
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely getting more and
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: more important also in the
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: diplomatic services.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: I like the example you have
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: mentioned with the pandemic.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think it continues to inform
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: so many of our decisions and
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: just the emphasis on
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: this collaborative aspect.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to bring us towards
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: the Global South.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's a clear shift.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Countries like India, particularly
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: through platforms like
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: the Raisina Dialogue, are moving
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: from participation towards
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: this agenda-setting in
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: science diplomacy.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: From your perspective,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: how does the European approach
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: engage with this shift?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: And how does Europe avoid
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: the stereotypical Eurocentric
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: framework while still trying to
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: shape global frameworks?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very important question.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, if you look back at the
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: famous AAAS-Royal Society
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: definition 16 years
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: ago, that was largely
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: a thing between the Global North.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: There were a few voices from the
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: South at the table.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: But this has changed completely in
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: the past 15 years.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: The Global South actually
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: has developed very
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: strongly in the area of science
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And actually many countries in the
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: South see science diplomacy as a way
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: to leverage geopolitical influence.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: You see countries like South Africa
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: investing, India investing.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: You see countries like Costa Rica
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: or Rwanda having national science
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy strategies.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: developing in the South, which is
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: good because I think we need
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: all the voices at the table.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually see a big opportunity
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: here that everybody around the world
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: is discussing science diplomacy.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's in a way the moment where
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: we can do science diplomacy by
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: discussing it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Also across the geopolitical
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: divides, across North, South, et
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: cetera, and all these, these, you
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: know, dimensions.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when it comes to our own
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: consultation on science diplomacy,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: it very clearly says also,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: we want to participate in
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: this global science diplomacy
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: discourse.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: We want to foster equitable
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy partnerships and
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: have international dialogues around
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, as any strategic
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: document, it will also speak
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: to your own interest.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's, I think, normal.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So in that sense, it also is to
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: some degree, of course, Eurocentric,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: as whatever South African
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: strategy would be South
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: African-centric or Indian strategy
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Indian-centric.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there is an underlying
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: issue here.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that is when we talk about
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: values.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: discussions around values.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we have been fostering
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: in the last years, and will continue
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: to do so, together with the
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: International Science Council, to
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: have a dialogue around values and
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: principles, and international
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: science cooperation.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And academic freedom
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: obviously is one of them.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And some have been saying, yeah, but
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: that's, you know, Western values, or
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: European values.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's universal values of
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: science.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, in a way, I see
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: here the European Union as the
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: custodian of the legacy of the
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Enlightenment, if i may put it like
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: this.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it is
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: about, you know, the freedom
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: of thought.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is about the scientific method,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: and all these issues
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: that obviously are also
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: under pressure in many
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: parts of the world and, by the way,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: also in parts of the European Union,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: let's be very frank about it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we need to have this
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: dialogue across borders.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to follow up actually on a
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: process question because the
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: European Commission adopted this
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: proposal that you were the penholder
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: of and
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: it's
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: a Council of European Union
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: recommendation, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's a non-binding instrument,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: essentially, and it goes
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: before, does it go before - can
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: you talk about the next steps in
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: the debate.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Actually we have, of course,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: discussed, you know, what would be
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: the right legal format of
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: this, the different
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: kind of examples, like a Commission
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: communication or, you know,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: regulations, all sorts of legal
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: documents.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we thought a
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Council recommendation is the best
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: way to go.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because first it's owned by the
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Council.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's owned by the member states.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, foreign and security
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: policy is their business.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's their sovereignty.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're doing here is we're
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: proposing a Council recommendation.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the European Commission has
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: adopted a proposal, and
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: this proposal is now being discussed
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: with the Council and within between
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: the member states.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a body called
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: the Research Working Party in the
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Council ,which is basically, you
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: know, the science attaches of member
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: states in Brussels.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they, of course,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: with feedback from the research
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: ministries, from the foreign
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: ministries, are discussing the text
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: now and negotiating it.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea is that it would be
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: adopted by the end of
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: May by the so-called COMPET Council.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the research ministers.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, one question was, you
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: know, how to get the foreign
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: policy dimension into it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why we have presented
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: this proposal also in the External
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Relations Working Party of Council.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you have comments, please channel
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: this to your colleagues and the
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Research Working Party.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then end of May, it will be
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: adopted as a Council recommendation.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, recommendation obviously says
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's not binding, it's
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: forward-looking.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's as it, as we are
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: evolving, and we need to get all the
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: member states on the same page, I
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: think it's the best instrument so
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: that there is a political commitment
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: but yet it leaves sufficient
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: flexibility.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously once adopted,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: these recommendations would need to
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: be implemented by the member states
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: according to whatever their
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: situation is.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And as I said, it's in a way
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: voluntary, but of course, there's
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: a monitoring mechanism so
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: that we will regularly produce
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: reports that show how
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: member states have been implementing
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: this recommendation.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: So is that a foregone conclusion
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: that it will be adopted at the end
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: of May?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or is there a debate, or
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: how does that work?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Will there actually be a vote?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then even though
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's a non-binding recommendation, I
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: mean, what force
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: will it have?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it will become part
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: of European legislation.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's obviously soft
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: law, as we call it.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a recommendation, but it's a
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: document which has been, first,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: the proposal would have been adopted
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: by the European Commission and
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: adopted by European Commission means
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: by the commissioners, by President
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: von der Leyen, by the high
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: representative, they have agreed to
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: this.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it will be adopted by the
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: research ministers on behalf
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: of the Council.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's basically
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: the Council of the European Union
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: that will adopt this as a formal
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: document.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And in that sense, that's what
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: you mean by regulation, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a Council recommendation, that's
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: the formal kind of legal title of
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: it.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So actually it is, it is kind of
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: part of the body of European law.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's adopted by the member states
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: and they kind of make a
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: commitment, that's what we want.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: We are committed to implement what
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: we have adopted here.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we cannot force them,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: because it's a recommendation.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we will see, of course,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: differences between member states,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: but at least there's a political
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: commitment of everybody that's the
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: direction we want to go.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the strategic element in
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: it.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I want to ask
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: you.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's really interesting how
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: you're talking about, you know,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: before you only had scientists
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: in the room and you're trying to get
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: all these, like, political players.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a very interesting
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: situation and it largely
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: reflects what's happening in the
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: world.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll give an example with
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: the upcoming selection of the next
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: United Nations secretary-general
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: and in the context of
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: intensifying geopolitical
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: competition around science and
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: technology.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Do you see a shift towards
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: political leaders themselves
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: becoming de facto
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: science diplomats?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: And what would that
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: change in how science diplomacy is
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: actually practiced?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, discussing what
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: actually is a science diplomat -
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: that will be an
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: entire debate for a couple of hours.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, like with science
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy, there are very different
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: views on what a science diplomat is.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, what we want to see is
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: that those in charge of
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: foreign policy actually take
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: ownership of this.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was the whole point actually in
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: why we have designed the process in
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: this way, that it is really
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: owned also, not just by
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: research ministers or research
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: ministries, but also by those
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: in charge of foreign policy and
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: ultimately, of course, heads of
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: state and prime ministers.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I see, you know, of cause
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: there will be some of them, and
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: that's very normal when you go
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: to any diplomatic service, you will
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: find people who,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: as part of their duties, are
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: used to dealing with scientists -
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: those that deal with climate
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: issues, Arctic issues, space issues.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: For them, it's daily bread and
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: butter.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: But when you already go to
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: trade negotiators and those
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: negotiating free trade agreements,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: they are not necessarily used to
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: talk to scientists every day, and
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: scientists are usually not in the
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: room when trade deals
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: are being negotiated.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Still, of course, science has a lot
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: to do with trade and, actually, a
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: lot of disagreements on trade issues
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: are around food safety standards,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: environmental standards, so very
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: technical issues.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the issue is really to
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: get science and technology
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: permeating into all areas
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: of foreign and security, not
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: just the environmental ones, where
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: we classically see, you know,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy happening with
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: IPCC and IPBES, and
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: all these bodies.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: But with all these groundbreaking
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: technologies, it really permeates
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: into all areas.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: actually also the interest comes
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: from the diplomatic side, when they
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: see actually that's
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: impacting on my daily agenda.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not trying to drag you into
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: an hours-long debate about
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: what is a science diplomat, but
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: I do have a follow-up.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Which is that, so von der Leyen
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: has I think, does she have a medical
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: background?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, she is a medical doctor.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I thought, yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously here you have a
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: politician and she's a doctor.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think Guterres is an engineer and
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: he's obviously a politician.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Several people in the running for
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: the secretary-general's job
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: - Bachelet, another doctor,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: politician.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: somebody like that a science
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: diplomat because they actually
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: are a scientist and a diplomat?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or, can you say now that, like we
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: were talking about, that the job
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: itself, regardless of your
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: background, forces you to be
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: a science diplomat?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say forces you to
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: be a science diplomat, but certainly
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: forces you to deal with science
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: and technology issues, because
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: they're becoming more and more
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: important.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to give you an
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: example, I think the best example is
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Angela Merkel, the former chancellor
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: of Germany, who you know has a PhD
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: in physics.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, she had
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: actually during her mandate as a
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: chancellor, she had steadily
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: increased investment in science.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: She
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: very often did actual policy
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: like a scientist, right?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you set up an experiment,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: see how it goes, and if it doesn't
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: lead to the outcome, then you change
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: the parameters and run the
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: experiment again.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you see a little bit the
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: scientific mindset also in Angela
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Merkel, yet she took a very
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: unscientific decision, which was to
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: phase out nuclear energy after
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Fukushima.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's when the
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: politician Merkel won over the
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: scientist Merkel.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because she saw
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: that there she wasn't
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: able actually to convince the
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: population to go on with nuclear
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: power.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, once you are,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: as a scientist, in such a political
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: role,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: then many other factors come into
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: play, not just evidence.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And, I always say, in a democracy,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: politicians have the right to ignore
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: the evidence.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Even if we don't like that, as
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: scientists, they have the right to
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: do that, because they are elected by
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: the people, not me as a scientist.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what I would expect always is
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: that a politician, when he
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: or she ignores the evidence,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: that he or she explains why
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: it is done, why
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: the decision is going this
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: way and not the other way.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this may be economic
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: consideration.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: It may be social
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: consideration, electoral
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: consideration, you name it.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's important that the
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: scientific evidence is considered,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: but if a politician chooses to
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: ignore it, that's okay in a
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: democracy.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: Can we call the top U.N.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: job or the top E.U.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: job - can we call them two of the
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: world's top science diplomats?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, in the European
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Commission, you know the European Commission
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: is not a government, it's a public
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: administration.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, as a public
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: administration, actually, it is
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: forced to base policies
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: on evidence.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's actually legislation that
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: forces us to do this.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually quite unique that
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: you have a body like the Joint
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Research Centre, actually at
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: the rank of a ministry, the rank of
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: a director general.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, actually, theoretically,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: JSE could veto a policy
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: if it's not based on evidence.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that makes the European
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Commission actually a quite unique
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: body.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: But also if you look at the
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: United Nations, of course, you have
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: many, perhaps not United Nations as
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: a whole, but you have many United
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Nations bodies and
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: agencies that are very much
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: science driven.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, I mean, at the end of the
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: day, they all, I
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: don't know whether they all will be
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: science diplomats, but definitely
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: they have no choice than
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: having to deal with science and
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: technology and take it into
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: consideration in the decision
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: making.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: For a scientist who would be
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: listening to this or
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: an aspiring science diplomat or
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: anyone pretty much, what do you
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: think is determining
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: whether a piece of knowledge is
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: actually actionable?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when you work at the
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: science policy interface, it's very
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: important that you understand
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: how scientists tick and how
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: politicians tick.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, science has its
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: way to go about things, the
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: scientific method, and science,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: of course, is a
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: rather slow process, producing
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: publications, etc.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas policymaking and
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: diplomacy, even more so, is
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: a very quickly turning wheel,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: driven by the crisis of the day
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: and every day there's somewhere in
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: the world an earthquake, a coup
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: d'État or whatever it may be.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you need a
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: few skills to manage the science
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: policy interface.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's obviously the science
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: communication skill to be able
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: to explain the science
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: in very simple words or
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: a member of the European Parliament
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: very nicely once told me
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: the scientist must be able explain
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: me the evidence while I walk from
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: one meeting to the next.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the time span you have.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that and the other one
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: very importantly here is
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: timing.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Timing is of the essence.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Science in the past unfortunately
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: has been always very good at
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: delivering fantastic reports a
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: few weeks after the political
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: decision has been taken.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's very important that
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: you will get the timing right.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, this will sometimes mean
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: that you need to act quickly, but
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: you will also have the opportunity
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: actually to slow down
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: the policy wheel by
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: discussing foresight.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So sit down with the politicians
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: or the diplomats and
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: talk to them what's going to happen
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: in 10 or 20 years from now.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Then you get them out of the daily
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: business and you can think
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit more long-term.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in turn, these insights from
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: foresight, of course, then can
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: inform also your policy choices.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So these are kind of some of the
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: skills you will need.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I can, of course encourage
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: young people to choose a career
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: in that context in
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: the, as I say, twilight zone between
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: science and policy and diplomacy,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: because it is very exciting.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: You are making an impact in the real
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: world.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a moment you can share
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: where the evidence was crystal clear
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: for something that needed to be
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: done, but it still wasn't enough to
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: change the political outcome?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I could mention actually
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: a current example, which is the
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Global Plastic Pollution Treaty.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think the evidence is clear.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows plastics harm marine
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: ecosystems, harm marine
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: organisms, harm
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: livelihoods of fishermen.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: The evidence is very clear.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Still, it is painstakingly
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: difficult to come to some
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: global agreement on plastic
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: pollution in the ocean.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, of course, because there
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: are a lot of economic interests
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: involved.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oil producing countries that have
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: their interests.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: bringing all these interests
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: together is of course difficult
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: if you've tried to find some, some
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: sort of, you know, a common
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: approach, especially in the
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: world we live in right now.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it is possible as we've seen
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: with the treaty on biodiversity
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: beyond national jurisdiction.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it is still possible, but for
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: this you need, I mean, science-based
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: organizations.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a big problem that
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: especially the U.S. is withdrawing
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: from several of them at the
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: moment because those organizations,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: in a way, they define the
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: baselines of what the evidence is
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: or what we know and
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: what we don't know.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, we should
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: always be clear it's diplomats who
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: negotiate international agreements,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: not scientists.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: But they will depend on us and
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: the evidence we deliver.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I started covering
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: environmental and energy and
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: climate issues decades ago,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes even when there was plenty
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: of evidence, you know,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: it suited the administration's
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: purpose to simply say, we don't have
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: enough evidence.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: We can't act yet.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: We need to know more.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: We need to know more.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, in science, of
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: course, you never have 100%
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: certainty.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in life, you never
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: have 100% certain about anything.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of an
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: interesting challenge I guess or
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: question I have for you which is
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: have you seen that develop over
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: the years any trends
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: in that, you know,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: is the world getting any better at
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: that or is
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: that a tactic that's
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: used increasingly?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Does science diplomacy help with
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: that or is that still
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: kind of a root problem?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the tactics have always
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: been there.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, find me the evidence
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: to underpin my view of the world,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: or you choose the single piece of
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: evidence that fits your view and
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: you ignore all the rest.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: These are tactics we have always
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: seen.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think why we have become much
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: better is actually in
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: structuring the process and then
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: kind of giving
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: a feeling around what uncertainty
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: actually means.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the IPCC is the best
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: example.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: The way they describe
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: evidence,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: with high confidence and low
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: confidence, all these issues.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is really helpful.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: of course political decisions are
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: about the future, which is
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: inherently uncertain.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there are areas where, I mean,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: the evidence is crystal clear or
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: there's kind of 90% mainstream
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: science that clearly indicates this
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: way.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there are areas where perhaps
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: the certainty is not yet there,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: quite simply because we don't know
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: yet enough because there hasn't been
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: enough research.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Still, politicians have to make
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: choices.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And my experience with
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: politicians is they are not so much
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: interested in, you know, is the
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: uncertainty 14% or
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: 27%.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: So what they want to know is
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: does it cost me 100,000
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: bucks more or is it the end of life
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: as we know it?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of getting a feeling of
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: what the evidence means.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then we all know, of course,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: revolutions in science are rather
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: rare.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: So when you base policies on
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: evidence, they are more sustainable
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: than those that are not, because
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: evidence does not change with a
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: change in government.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: We can have a left government today
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: and a right government tomorrow.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: The evidence is still the same.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it develops, it isn't
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: stable.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the evidence is
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: there and the concern,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: of course, we now see is that
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: science is increasingly being
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: regarded as, you know, kind of a
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: partisan issue and scientific
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: evidence being seen as mere opinion
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: or even kind of science being
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: used in a fake sense,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know claiming, yeah, that's
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: the science and basically ignoring
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: tons of scientific evidence.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, I think, the real
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: challenge we have in science
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: advice and science diplomacy right
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: now.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get past that?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you mentioned the plastic
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: treaty, and of course we've got
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: climate change, these huge
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: problems, and we're at an
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: impasse.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: The evidence is
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: clear, and yet we're not acting.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the answer I would give here,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: well, let's say the advice I always
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: give to scientists, don't waste your
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: time with lunatic politicians.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Spend your time with the people who
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: vote for them.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: They are the ones you need to
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: convince.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they have may have
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: very valid concerns about their
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: lifestyle, about their jobs, about
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: new technologies,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: changing the way of life.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: They are the ones you need to win
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: and, and I always say,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: we are scientists, we talk,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: we are rational, we talk from brain
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: to brain.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the populist politicians,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: they talk to gut feelings.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: They talk from gut to gut - which we
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: all, by the way, have, also
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: scientists.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: But nobody forbids us to actually
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: talk to people's hearts,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: to win people's hearts, to
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: show empathy for public concerns.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then that means get out there,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: get out into the areas
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: voting for those politicians, and
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: engage with the people, and have
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: an honest debate around it, and show
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: them that we are, as scientists, we
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: are not superheroes.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have hopes and fears like
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: everyone else, but we can show them,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: look, that's what we know, what the
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: evidence shows, and
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: yes, there are uncertainties, but
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: tell them there is
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: actually an honest debate
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: possible, which
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: gets the people out of these
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: ideological trenches.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's difficult.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's hardship, definitely.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: As we come to the end,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm liking what
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: you're saying, you know,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: superheroes, faith, hope,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: and I think I can add an extra word:
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: magic.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because you've
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: often talked about the magic of
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: getting scientists and diplomats
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: in the same room.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: You've mentioned coordinating 27
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: different agencies for scientists
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: and diplomat.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, my question is,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: was the real achievement in
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: writing the framework itself?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Or simply just getting
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: all those people in one room
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: without starting a new
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: diplomatic crisis?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I always said much
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: more, much more important than
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: the end result, this report, was
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: actually the process.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was getting the scientists and
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: diplomats into a room and talk to
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: each other.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because of course,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: if you don't do this, you're stuck
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: in your stereotypes,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: the diplomats having the stereotypes
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: of scientists being some nerdy
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: people disconnected
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: from the real world.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the scientists thinking
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: diplomats are these people who
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: spend their time at diplomatic
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: receptions and you need to call
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: them your excellency and these sorts
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: of things.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: But once you get them into a room,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: you see we are all very normal
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: people.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, we all have hopes and
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: fears and it's
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: there where you can really find
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: the common ground when you bring the
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: people together.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing also I want to leave
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: with you perhaps at the end of our
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: talk.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: We often
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: talk about science being under
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: attack or under threat in many
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: corners of the world; academic
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: freedom being under threat and
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: science being discredited
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: and disregarded.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: But actually diplomacy is under
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: attack as well.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not forget that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you do foreign policy by
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: launching missiles or by launching
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: social media posts in capital
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: letters, you don't need diplomats
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: anymore.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: So actually the scientists and
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: diplomats can actually be allies,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: because we both
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: have an interest that the
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: rules-based international order is
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: working.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there is common
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: ground for both camps to
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: come together and work together for
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: a better world.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: joining us in the Science Diplomat
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: and helping us see the architecture
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: behind science diplomacy.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the show notes and
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: a deeper dive into the E.U.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: framework on our website.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Science Diplomat signing
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: off.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again, Jan-Marco, for
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: joining us today.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot for the invitation.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.