Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #561 Jason Flom with Rodney Roberts

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#561 Jason Flom with Rodney Roberts · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If
0:05
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.
0:08
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.
0:13
Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,
0:18
Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have
0:21
Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but
0:24
Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.
0:27
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
0:30
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
0:32
Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be
0:34
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
0:37
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.
0:39
Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.
0:44
Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something
0:46
Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said.
0:49
Speaker 2: That could never happen to me, but.
0:52
Speaker 4: They can. This is wrongful conviction.
1:13
Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. Today's guest
1:17
Speaker 5: is the one and only Rodney Roberts.
1:20
Speaker 6: Rodney Roberts was held for seventeen years for the crime
1:24
Speaker 6: of raping a seventeen year old girl he had never met.
1:28
Speaker 6: Rodney was advised by his public.
1:30
Speaker 4: Defender to plead guilty.
1:32
Speaker 6: He was told that the seventeen year old girl who
1:35
Speaker 6: was right outside the courtroom had identified him, and if
1:39
Speaker 6: he did not plead guilty, he was going to spend
1:41
Speaker 6: the rest of his life in jail.
1:42
Speaker 7: Rodney Roberts story a guilty plead, born a fear, a
1:46
Speaker 7: maxed out sentence of seven years, and on the day
1:49
Speaker 7: of release, not a ride home, but a surprise transfer
1:53
Speaker 7: to civil commitment. It's a kind of imprisonment reserve for
1:56
Speaker 7: just one type of offender. It has no set sentence,
2:00
Speaker 7: no guarantee of release because the state deems them too
2:03
Speaker 7: dangerous to release, and the state says it's a treatment program,
2:08
Speaker 7: but the residents call it prison. He would be held
2:11
Speaker 7: there as an encouragible violent sex offender for a full decade,
2:14
Speaker 7: although it would later be proven that he had been
2:17
Speaker 7: innocent from the start.
2:18
Speaker 6: Rodney was finally released after seventeen years because he got
2:22
Speaker 6: a lawyer who had DNA evidence.
2:25
Speaker 4: Rodney, Welcome to the show. I'm glad you're here, Thank you.
2:28
Speaker 4: I'm glad to be here.
2:29
Speaker 5: So Rodney, this whole crazy saga of your life started
2:34
Speaker 5: when you were seventeen, really right, yes, And up until
2:37
Speaker 5: then your life had been what she's full, good, troubled,
2:42
Speaker 5: what was your background.
2:44
Speaker 3: Actually up in today. My life was very well. I
2:46
Speaker 3: had both parents, mother and father, and the household work.
2:49
Speaker 3: My mother she was hands on. She has a master's
2:52
Speaker 3: degree in education. She believed in education in US learning.
2:57
Speaker 3: I have six sisters and four brothers, so we had
2:59
Speaker 3: a house.
3:00
Speaker 4: That's a whole football team.
3:01
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I was never alone. I was always
3:04
Speaker 3: well supervised. I had no trouble as a juvenile, no
3:07
Speaker 3: juvenile cross ration or no trouble in that level.
3:10
Speaker 4: I was a very good student. You know.
3:12
Speaker 3: We went to private school from first to eighth grade.
3:16
Speaker 3: So my life then was very positive, very If I
3:21
Speaker 3: was poor, I didn't have no I wasn't even aware
3:23
Speaker 3: of it because I was so well cared for by
3:26
Speaker 3: my parents and my older brothers and sisters, and my
3:28
Speaker 3: aunts and my uncles.
3:29
Speaker 4: And the people in the community.
3:31
Speaker 3: You know back then at that time, you know, you
3:34
Speaker 3: had like five six mothers in the neighborhood. You were
3:37
Speaker 3: watched by so many others that you could be disciplined
3:39
Speaker 3: by the lady down the street and she'd bring you
3:42
Speaker 3: to your mother and you and then get disciplined right
3:44
Speaker 3: in front of her and by your mother. So it
3:46
Speaker 3: was a different time than us, and the love in
3:49
Speaker 3: the community and the household.
3:50
Speaker 4: Was very strong, and which neighborhood was this well.
3:53
Speaker 3: Originally we grew up in the Project area on Montgomery Street,
3:57
Speaker 3: which again was different at that time. And then we
4:00
Speaker 3: moved to a one family house up in Wealsburg area
4:03
Speaker 3: that's in North New Jersey, right across the street from
4:05
Speaker 3: Walsburg Park, so I can run off my front porch right.
4:08
Speaker 4: Upto a park up in Newark, New Jersey.
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Speaker 5: And it sounds really very sort of beautiful in a
4:15
Speaker 5: certain way, very community oriented, nice, Like you said, a
4:19
Speaker 5: huge family, had a huge extended family. And this is
4:22
Speaker 5: why when I tell people, if you don't think this
4:24
Speaker 5: can happen to you, this can happen to you, because
4:27
Speaker 5: you didn't just paint a likely scenario for someone who's
4:29
Speaker 5: going to end up really getting wrongly convicted twice and
4:32
Speaker 5: serving over two decades in prison for crimes you didn't commit.
4:36
Speaker 5: So let's get into that part of the story. Because
4:38
Speaker 5: when you were a kid, you were kind of hanging
4:40
Speaker 5: out with older guys, right, and then you kind of
4:43
Speaker 5: got blindsided because you weren't really aware of what these
4:46
Speaker 5: guys were up to.
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Speaker 3: I mean, the blind side particularly came from the fact
4:51
Speaker 3: that I grew up in so much of a people
4:55
Speaker 3: call out a sheltered household sheltered life, that a lot
4:58
Speaker 3: of things go on the streets I really wasn't exposed to,
5:01
Speaker 3: so me growing up, I would have to come in
5:05
Speaker 3: the house early and things that natures. I thought I
5:07
Speaker 3: was missing out on a lot of things. So I
5:09
Speaker 3: would find a little ways to sneak out the house,
5:11
Speaker 3: not really knowing what I would get myself into. And
5:14
Speaker 3: because of that, I wasn't aware of what was out there.
5:17
Speaker 3: I was more easy to be manipulated in that environment.
5:20
Speaker 3: I'm smart, but I was stupid at the same time.
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Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't say stupid, naive. That's a good word, naive.
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Speaker 3: It was a much better world. I like that word
5:28
Speaker 3: better than stupid too. So like the older guys in
5:30
Speaker 3: the community who so much like see young guys, they
5:33
Speaker 3: see potentially in but they seen a potential in a
5:36
Speaker 3: different way. They seen a potential in like a more
5:38
Speaker 3: negative way. How could I sharpen this guy to help
5:41
Speaker 3: me commit my crimes and help me get over And
5:44
Speaker 3: I became under that radar, and when they approached me,
5:48
Speaker 3: that they approached me like, hey man, we like the
5:50
Speaker 3: where you're blend right in.
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Speaker 4: We just want you to do this.
5:53
Speaker 3: Just look be a scout, be a lookout, just do
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Speaker 3: this and do minimum things things that I thought was
5:57
Speaker 3: really cool. You know, hey, I'm in now, you know
6:00
Speaker 3: I'm part of the streets now, thinking that I was
6:03
Speaker 3: going to earn the street creed all the time I
6:05
Speaker 3: was being played because of my naiveness, of my naivete,
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Speaker 3: I wasn't able to see what was really going on
6:12
Speaker 3: with me.
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Speaker 5: But when you're a kid with that kind of flattery,
6:14
Speaker 5: when an older person shows your respect and treats you
6:17
Speaker 5: as they're equal, that can be very intoxicating and can
6:20
Speaker 5: lead you down the road that you don't really know
6:22
Speaker 5: you're going because you're blinded, right because you're thinking that
6:24
Speaker 5: you're in with the cool squad or whatever.
6:26
Speaker 3: So what happened, Well, what happened was, first I hid
6:29
Speaker 3: this from my family. I wanted to add that part.
6:31
Speaker 3: They didn't know what was going on. So I separated
6:34
Speaker 3: myself from my protection. And that was a key point
6:37
Speaker 3: in that point where this particular day they we were
6:40
Speaker 3: out and they were saying, well, what was going on
6:42
Speaker 3: out here on the avenue, which just Hakwon's Avenue, and
6:45
Speaker 3: it was a busy street, very crime oriented, and I
6:49
Speaker 3: came back and said, well, this person's doing this, and
6:51
Speaker 3: this person's doing that, and that person is stopping picking
6:53
Speaker 3: up this, and so in that course, they took action
6:57
Speaker 3: from there and they went into and committed the crimes
7:01
Speaker 3: that they committed in detail, which was robbery's, chicknapped, and
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Speaker 3: sexual related offenses. And me, because I played my role,
7:09
Speaker 3: I was charged as a conspirator, not that I committed
7:12
Speaker 3: any offenses, but because I acted in the capacity I
7:15
Speaker 3: acted at.
7:16
Speaker 4: That age, I was also charged.
7:18
Speaker 3: I went to trial with these individuals and was found
7:21
Speaker 3: guilty with these individuals and had to serve five years
7:26
Speaker 3: alongside these individuals as a conspirator, and my record reflected
7:31
Speaker 3: the same as their, even though I did not participate.
7:34
Speaker 3: But as a conspirator, I was charged the same way,
7:37
Speaker 3: and in that five years because of my age, I
7:39
Speaker 3: was sent to like a youth facility, which is board
7:42
Speaker 3: in town at that time, and once I got a
7:44
Speaker 3: certain size and they transferred me to a larger facility
7:48
Speaker 3: which was always stay prison, who in turn released me.
7:52
Speaker 3: Once they released me in the early nineties ninety three,
7:56
Speaker 3: I was home. At that point in my life, I
7:58
Speaker 3: had decided that my whole life was changed. I was
8:01
Speaker 3: never going back. I had got a good job. I
8:05
Speaker 3: was looking at Quellsmen's Wear up in Woolbrook Mall. I
8:08
Speaker 3: was an excellent salesman for them, paying me pretty good money.
8:11
Speaker 3: Got a nice apartment up in Mountclear, New Jersey. Got
8:15
Speaker 3: custody of my son, who I felt was the change
8:18
Speaker 3: in my life as well, who had left before I
8:20
Speaker 3: was inconcentrated. His mother was pregnant, so I wasn't even
8:24
Speaker 3: there to witness his birth. So that was a big
8:27
Speaker 3: part of me coming home as a change man to
8:30
Speaker 3: take responsibility of my son. Got me a nice car
8:33
Speaker 3: and everything, and I was.
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Speaker 4: Doing pretty well.
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Speaker 3: And as a result of doing that, I was picked
8:39
Speaker 3: up and identified as someone who committed another offense, saying
8:44
Speaker 3: I was a warrant was out for my arrest, saying
8:46
Speaker 3: that you've been identified as a person who committed a
8:50
Speaker 3: sexual related offense and a kidnapped, and against my adamant denial, like, listen,
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Speaker 3: it's not me. I didn't do this. I didn't even
8:58
Speaker 3: do that before, but now they had me custody. Once
9:01
Speaker 3: they arrested me and put me in custody. The threat
9:04
Speaker 3: we can hold you and keep you here for the
9:06
Speaker 3: rest of your life was real to me. They had
9:08
Speaker 3: showed me that they had the power to do that already.
9:10
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you were in a very precarious situation. I mean,
9:13
Speaker 5: seven years had gone by, your life was, as you said,
9:15
Speaker 5: your life was on track. Things are looking good, and
9:18
Speaker 5: then this crazy thing happens. And then a lot of
9:22
Speaker 5: a lot of weird stuff goes on, I mean, a
9:24
Speaker 5: lot of lying, a lot of cheating the system because
9:29
Speaker 5: they really wanted to convict you. In your case, it
9:31
Speaker 5: doesn't seem like they were really that interested in finding
9:34
Speaker 5: out who raped this woman. They were interested in pending
9:37
Speaker 5: it on you, right, just because they had you and
9:39
Speaker 5: we've seen that part of this scenario happened before. That's
9:43
Speaker 5: not the craziest thing about your story. It's crazy because
9:45
Speaker 5: it happened to you, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately. But
9:48
Speaker 5: things get really crazy as we go along. Well, we'll
9:51
Speaker 5: take us through this, right.
9:52
Speaker 4: Well, once I.
9:53
Speaker 3: Was in custody, it was really my public defender, as
9:57
Speaker 3: they say in jail house turner and my public pretender
10:00
Speaker 3: who came and said to me in this theatrical way,
10:03
Speaker 3: that he had convinced me that the state had this
10:06
Speaker 3: over women evidence, that the witness was outside by the way,
10:09
Speaker 3: this is my third turned public defender within a four
10:12
Speaker 3: month period, and that the witness seeing my photo and
10:15
Speaker 3: start crying uncontrollably, and they had pinpointed me in that
10:19
Speaker 3: if I was going to go to trial and be
10:21
Speaker 3: in jail for the rest of my life. Now at
10:23
Speaker 3: that point, I felt so overwhelmed backtracking, which just happened
10:27
Speaker 3: to me earlier at seventeen. They said that, well, look
10:30
Speaker 3: and we'll offer you a plea agreement. We're gonna give
10:32
Speaker 3: you a seven year term and you're gonna do two
10:34
Speaker 3: years and you'll come home. If you just plead guilty,
10:36
Speaker 3: you were gonna dismiss the sexual lady defense and you
10:39
Speaker 3: were downgrade the kidnapped to a second degree and put
10:42
Speaker 3: on record no one got hurt. And so in my
10:45
Speaker 3: mind I thought I would saved my life because I
10:47
Speaker 3: had just left my son out there and I didn't
10:50
Speaker 3: know what was going on. I was separated from my family.
10:53
Speaker 3: So I took the plea agreement and I answered the
10:56
Speaker 3: plead to a crime I didn't commit, and doing that,
10:59
Speaker 3: I felt like I portrayed myself in a way that
11:02
Speaker 3: it took me years to get over. And the process
11:04
Speaker 3: of that, I was sent down to state prison to
11:07
Speaker 3: do the seven year term because I went to parole,
11:11
Speaker 3: and parole actually was saying that, oh, listen, you're here
11:15
Speaker 3: not just for the kidnap, but we're here for what
11:17
Speaker 3: the police reports are saying, for the sexual offense. And
11:19
Speaker 3: I was like, no, I didn't do any of that.
11:22
Speaker 3: I actually I didn't do any of it. At this point,
11:24
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm I didn't do any I just played
11:26
Speaker 3: guilty thinking trying to save my life. Well, that sent
11:30
Speaker 3: them in a spiral like I was in denial, and
11:32
Speaker 3: then I showed no remorse, which you know, I could
11:35
Speaker 3: show remorse for something I did not do, and that's
11:37
Speaker 3: what I was trying to explain to them. But as
11:39
Speaker 3: a result of that, I was denied parole maybe three times,
11:42
Speaker 3: and then I.
11:43
Speaker 4: Was maxed out.
11:44
Speaker 3: And in being maxed out at me, I served a
11:47
Speaker 3: full seven year terms as opposed to two year term.
11:50
Speaker 3: But before you are released from prison, you were sent
11:52
Speaker 3: to these parole classes. So I went to the parole
11:56
Speaker 3: classes and the pre release classes, which I was did
11:58
Speaker 3: stellar and because I'm thinking I'm going home. And so
12:02
Speaker 3: on the day of my release, I was brought out
12:05
Speaker 3: to the front like every other prisoner who was schedul
12:08
Speaker 3: to be released that day lined up, but instead when
12:12
Speaker 3: they called everyone name, they didn't call minds. So they
12:15
Speaker 3: had released all of them and left me standing there
12:18
Speaker 3: in the day of the day, I had maxed out,
12:20
Speaker 3: means that I had no more time left to do.
12:22
Speaker 4: But so you're there.
12:23
Speaker 5: You have your possessions, whatever your possessions were that you
12:26
Speaker 5: had in prison with you, you had them with you. Right,
12:28
Speaker 5: You're ready to go home, start your life again, see
12:31
Speaker 5: your son, re establish your relationships with your family, the
12:35
Speaker 5: whole thing.
12:35
Speaker 4: They were actually in the parking lot waiting to take
12:38
Speaker 4: me home and go get something.
12:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had all ranged, and I mean I had,
12:42
Speaker 3: you know, grown until more after seven years from this
12:46
Speaker 3: experience in a degree where I felt like, now my
12:49
Speaker 3: life is really going to be take control of my
12:52
Speaker 3: life and really do it right. But as opposed to
12:55
Speaker 3: being released, I was held and transferred to what New
12:59
Speaker 3: Jersey call to a special treatment on this because I
13:02
Speaker 3: refused to pleat acknowledgeablete guilty or admit my role in
13:07
Speaker 3: the sexual related offense. New Jersey had passed a law
13:10
Speaker 3: called the Sexually Found Predat Act, which said that if
13:13
Speaker 3: they felt like a person was still dangerous, that they
13:16
Speaker 3: could not be released. So they civilly committed me under
13:19
Speaker 3: that pretense. So I was taking to a facility civil
13:22
Speaker 3: commitment facility which is like a civil commitment like traditional However,
13:26
Speaker 3: this was like a new hybrid facility that New Jersey
13:29
Speaker 3: had came up with where they combined the Apartment Correction
13:31
Speaker 3: and Apartment Human Service to their Department in Service there
13:35
Speaker 3: would provide treatment to those that were committed. And I
13:39
Speaker 3: was held there for ten years.
13:41
Speaker 4: It's not real. I mean ten years on top. It's
13:44
Speaker 4: like it.
13:45
Speaker 5: I think most people are listening and going, wait, wait,
13:47
Speaker 5: but that doesn't make sense. You can't serve your sentence
13:49
Speaker 5: and then serve another sentence that you didn't even have,
13:51
Speaker 5: which is longer by fifty percent than your original sentence
13:54
Speaker 5: was in the first place. And you know it's so crazy, right,
13:57
Speaker 5: you plead innocent, they send you to prison, and you
13:59
Speaker 5: play guilty to send you home.
14:01
Speaker 4: Right, It's so backwards.
14:02
Speaker 5: It's like Alice in Wonderland, but in your case, that's
14:05
Speaker 5: literally what happened. They wanted you to acknowledge your guilt.
14:09
Speaker 5: I mean, they pulled the rug out from under you
14:11
Speaker 5: so many different times, in so many different ways. By now, right,
14:14
Speaker 5: they had lied to you about the witness who actually
14:17
Speaker 5: had not identified you and never did identify you, right,
14:20
Speaker 5: and they told you that she did. You know, when
14:22
Speaker 5: you talk about three public defenders in four months, I mean,
14:25
Speaker 5: it's not hard for anyone to imagine how little your
14:29
Speaker 5: public defender must have known about your case when they
14:32
Speaker 5: keep switching them out like this. I mean, there's just
14:35
Speaker 5: not that much time to get to understand what's going on.
14:38
Speaker 5: And to be fair, these people are, even the best
14:40
Speaker 5: ones of them, are juggling a lot of cases because
14:43
Speaker 5: that's just the way the system works. He or she
14:45
Speaker 5: might have been working one hundred cases at that.
14:46
Speaker 3: Time, and that came out that down the line to
14:48
Speaker 3: try and admit it that when he had like forty
14:51
Speaker 3: cases clients in a bullpen, which is a holding area
14:54
Speaker 3: for prisoners, he had an old woman case a little
14:57
Speaker 3: and like forty were there, and by the time he
14:59
Speaker 3: got the.
15:00
Speaker 4: He was in a cilly lawn mode.
15:01
Speaker 3: But in the process of being civilly committed that that
15:04
Speaker 3: whole experience within itself was a crazy experience because it
15:08
Speaker 3: is a experience that you could be civilly committed without
15:11
Speaker 3: a conviction. Now you're not convicted. Everything is done through
15:15
Speaker 3: medical terms. What I'm saying, you have a psychiatrist and
15:18
Speaker 3: a psychologist who come in and say I read the
15:21
Speaker 3: record and we think his person is guilty, and you know,
15:23
Speaker 3: and then that becomes you're guilty, and that becomes the
15:26
Speaker 3: reason they hold you.
15:27
Speaker 4: There's no justice there whatsoever. There's no trial.
15:30
Speaker 3: There's no way they give you a hearing that the
15:32
Speaker 3: attorney general totally dictates, so there's no way to challenge
15:36
Speaker 3: the whole process of it. Because the psychiatrists work for
15:39
Speaker 3: the state. They come in and write whatever the attorney
15:42
Speaker 3: general wants them to say. In my particular case, that
15:44
Speaker 3: was one beneficial point feature that I always like to
15:47
Speaker 3: add was the state centers psychiatrists and.
15:50
Speaker 4: To interview me.
15:51
Speaker 3: And as a result of his interview, he changed his mind,
15:54
Speaker 3: became my witness and testified that I should have been released.
15:58
Speaker 3: As a result, they diminished He was later released, but
16:02
Speaker 3: he jumped ship. But in that process where they still
16:05
Speaker 3: saw me an attorney. Another public defender named John Dewar,
16:09
Speaker 3: who I aw utmost respectful in their office. And I
16:13
Speaker 3: explained to him, I said, listen. This was in two
16:14
Speaker 3: thousand and four. I said, listen, I played guilty to
16:17
Speaker 3: a crime I commit. I listen, I shouldn't be here.
16:20
Speaker 3: And I explained to him what happened. I said, listen,
16:22
Speaker 3: I played guilty because I was far my life as
16:24
Speaker 3: been addressing my life in jail. I wanted to be
16:27
Speaker 3: home with my family. He said, listen, I'm gonna take
16:29
Speaker 3: a chance with you. So what he did was him
16:32
Speaker 3: and his investigator they went and found the victim, and
16:35
Speaker 3: they went interview her, and they showed her my photo
16:38
Speaker 3: and she asked, well, did you know this guy. I
16:40
Speaker 3: never seen this guy there in my life. They were like,
16:43
Speaker 3: wait a minute, this guy's locked up for a crime
16:45
Speaker 3: against you. She didn't even know anyone was locked up,
16:47
Speaker 3: particularly me. She said, I didn't never identify him. That
16:51
Speaker 3: sent my case into a spiral. As a result of that,
16:54
Speaker 3: she gave a sworn statement. We thought that that was
16:57
Speaker 3: gonna be enough to have me release from civil.
17:00
Speaker 5: It would seem like that would be a novel. I'm
17:02
Speaker 5: sure again everyone listening is going, okay, well that's it
17:05
Speaker 5: go home. You're done now, But that's not the way
17:07
Speaker 5: it works. But I want to make one more point
17:08
Speaker 5: before we get into the next part of the story,
17:10
Speaker 5: which is that ninety five percent of state felony convictions
17:14
Speaker 5: are a result of guilty. Please right, because almost anyone
17:18
Speaker 5: faced with your situation, especially someone who'd already had experience
17:22
Speaker 5: of how heavy the criminal justice system can come down
17:24
Speaker 5: on you, given a choice between what they were telling
17:28
Speaker 5: you was going to be two years or twenty eight
17:29
Speaker 5: months or whatever it was, or the rest of your life.
17:33
Speaker 5: I mean, try to walk a mile of those shoes, right.
17:36
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a horrible statistic.
17:37
Speaker 5: It's a horrible statistic. And like I said, it may
17:40
Speaker 5: not seem like it affects you, but someday it could.
17:42
Speaker 5: I mean, it could affect you or someone you love.
17:44
Speaker 5: Anyone who's listening right now, you know your chance with
17:46
Speaker 5: the public defender who I mean, the ODJIT two stacked.
17:50
Speaker 3: They formed would be a trifecta judge to prosecutor and
17:54
Speaker 3: public defender. In my mind, a collaboration to hurse me
17:59
Speaker 3: into this plea agreement to make it as if that
18:02
Speaker 3: was my only result to save my life.
18:18
Speaker 5: But here's what's so crazy about your case, Rannie, is that,
18:21
Speaker 5: first of all, start with you were innocent. Second of all,
18:24
Speaker 5: the idea that your own attorney says, we're going to
18:28
Speaker 5: get two years, but you end up getting seven years,
18:31
Speaker 5: but then they turned that into seventeen years. How can
18:34
Speaker 5: that be that your own people let you down to
18:38
Speaker 5: that extent. The system too, but your own people. And
18:41
Speaker 5: then the other thing, Like I said that, I really
18:42
Speaker 5: want to highlight because we haven't covered this on the
18:44
Speaker 5: show yet, but it's a reality, and it's a crazy
18:46
Speaker 5: reality that most people don't focus on. It's this idea
18:48
Speaker 5: of civil commitment and that sounds civil commitment, sounds like
18:52
Speaker 5: a relatively benign term.
18:53
Speaker 4: But it was hell in there, and I heard you
18:55
Speaker 4: talk about it. It was horrible in it.
18:57
Speaker 3: I mean it was horrible in the fact that I
19:00
Speaker 3: was exposed to an element that I had never had
19:03
Speaker 3: been exposed to before a mindset.
19:06
Speaker 4: The danger is real.
19:08
Speaker 3: There's a need to protect the most warlomable members of
19:10
Speaker 3: our society.
19:11
Speaker 4: That's real.
19:12
Speaker 3: However, the process of selection is flawed. Now when I
19:16
Speaker 3: say the flaw, if they see that you don't fit
19:18
Speaker 3: that criteria, you don't have what they call a present danger.
19:21
Speaker 3: You don't have the mental incapacity or the repetiti or
19:24
Speaker 3: compulsive personality, you should not be there now in that environment,
19:29
Speaker 3: you hear things that stories is so hard.
19:32
Speaker 4: What that makes you like?
19:33
Speaker 3: I used to cry in some of the groups because
19:35
Speaker 3: I didn't fit in any mold. I had no diagnosis
19:38
Speaker 3: because I wasn't able to be put in the group.
19:41
Speaker 3: So I was separated from the population and put in isolation.
19:45
Speaker 3: I spent most of my time, maybe nine years in isolation,
19:48
Speaker 3: away from population. But the big part of that case
19:51
Speaker 3: was for years we asked to state for the particular
19:55
Speaker 3: the kits what they said that they had to show
19:59
Speaker 3: the d evidence. So they said they lost it.
20:02
Speaker 4: And let's go back to that.
20:03
Speaker 5: And before we even do, I want to make that
20:05
Speaker 5: point too, because I think you and I are on
20:07
Speaker 5: the same page, because I often say that I'm not
20:09
Speaker 5: soft on crime, I'm tough on injustice right and I
20:12
Speaker 5: think too anybody who you know who hurts another human being,
20:15
Speaker 5: we have to have a society of laws. We have
20:18
Speaker 5: to protect the general population. I do believe that Brian
20:20
Speaker 5: Stevenson says, which is that everybody's better than the worst
20:23
Speaker 5: thing they've ever done. But that being said, we have
20:26
Speaker 5: to hold people accountable, we have to be safe as
20:29
Speaker 5: a society, but we also have to be fair. And
20:31
Speaker 5: everyone's entitled to a fair shake and to a fair
20:34
Speaker 5: trial and to fair treatment by the system. And you
20:36
Speaker 5: are the poster the poster child, for lack of a
20:38
Speaker 5: better word, of everything that's wrong and everything that can
20:42
Speaker 5: go wrong.
20:43
Speaker 4: And I want to get back to the rape kits.
20:44
Speaker 5: Because, as you said, as your lawyers were trying to
20:47
Speaker 5: get the rape kits, they were saying, and that we've
20:49
Speaker 5: seen this.
20:49
Speaker 4: Before, that they lost them.
20:51
Speaker 5: They didn't lose them, but they said they lost them
20:53
Speaker 5: either they were too lazy to look for them, whether
20:55
Speaker 5: they didn't look very hard or whatever it was, whether
20:56
Speaker 5: they were hiding them, who knows, But one way another,
20:59
Speaker 5: that's one of the things that kept you on as
21:00
Speaker 5: long as it did, because if they found those rape kits,
21:03
Speaker 5: you would have been freed because it would have proven
21:05
Speaker 5: that you could not have been the source of the
21:07
Speaker 5: semen that was found inside this woman. But talk a
21:10
Speaker 5: little bit about this isolation, right, What was that like?
21:14
Speaker 5: The isolation? I mean, does that mean you were in
21:15
Speaker 5: like solitary confinement type of sound?
21:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was in.
21:18
Speaker 3: It had a special unit called a B unit, where
21:22
Speaker 3: these particular individuals either they were treatment refused, either they
21:26
Speaker 3: refused to even participate in any programming, or like myself,
21:30
Speaker 3: had no diagnosis. And one other feature was they felt
21:34
Speaker 3: that I had too much influence on the population in regards.
21:37
Speaker 4: To my legal skill, my ability to advocate.
21:40
Speaker 3: When I was standing up and say this is injustice,
21:42
Speaker 3: this is not right, I had no idea how many
21:45
Speaker 3: people was behind me saying yeah, well he said so.
21:48
Speaker 3: I was always looked at as someone's citing rise or
21:50
Speaker 3: creating gatherings because all I was doing was standing up
21:54
Speaker 3: for what I thought was my rights. So as a result,
21:56
Speaker 3: the administration decided to isolate me and put me in
22:00
Speaker 3: isolation so I could not I was only able to
22:02
Speaker 3: go to visits with the rest of populais. I wasn't
22:04
Speaker 3: able to go grooves programs events. I couldn't participate in
22:08
Speaker 3: anything because of my stance and because I would not
22:12
Speaker 3: admit guilt. At this point, I stood firmly that I'm innocent,
22:16
Speaker 3: and that also set me apart from the population because
22:19
Speaker 3: the only way you could get therapy and treatment you
22:21
Speaker 3: have to admit guilt and in this isolation you'll put
22:24
Speaker 3: on this unit, and this unit is I mean, one
22:27
Speaker 3: of the most miserable places you could be because there's.
22:30
Speaker 4: A unit of hopelessness.
22:31
Speaker 3: You feel like you forgot about left there. You feel
22:34
Speaker 3: like everything at this point in your life is over,
22:37
Speaker 3: that no one believes you, and that the fight is
22:40
Speaker 3: so uphill it's like ice skating uphill.
22:43
Speaker 4: I mean.
22:43
Speaker 3: And in that moment, you know, I grew to a
22:47
Speaker 3: point where was though, I said to myself, because they
22:50
Speaker 3: would constantly say, fortunately had CIO. They had correction alice there,
22:55
Speaker 3: and they have correction officer there, who who's you know.
22:58
Speaker 3: He was very underst so he would say lock in,
23:02
Speaker 3: you know, you gotta lock in yourself, which no one
23:04
Speaker 3: wants to go lock be locking themself.
23:06
Speaker 4: But he was cordial about it.
23:08
Speaker 3: And he did his job, but he wasn't really arrogant
23:11
Speaker 3: about or aggressive. He would say lock in, guys, so
23:14
Speaker 3: everybody would feel more easy about doing it. But this
23:18
Speaker 3: particular day he wasn't there and they had this also
23:21
Speaker 3: on and he was just being extra unnecessary that day
23:25
Speaker 3: all that day, and so.
23:27
Speaker 4: When time came for us a locking, he said lock in.
23:32
Speaker 3: And the way he said it resonated in me so deeply.
23:38
Speaker 3: He said, lock in. I said to myself, no, no,
23:42
Speaker 3: I'm not locking it. No, I'm not I'm innocent. I'm
23:45
Speaker 3: not going in her room. I'm not supposed to be
23:47
Speaker 3: here today. So he says, if you don't lock in,
23:50
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to call the boys. It's gonna be trouble.
23:53
Speaker 3: I said, it's gonna be some trouble today. The day
23:55
Speaker 3: is that day. We're gonna have some trouble up here.
23:57
Speaker 3: It's gonna be some trouble. So he called the boy.
24:00
Speaker 3: So I'm up there, back and forth.
24:01
Speaker 4: Am ready.
24:02
Speaker 3: I'm positioning myself years going down today. I'm tired of this.
24:05
Speaker 3: I'm not locking in no more time. I'm innocent. So
24:08
Speaker 3: they ran up the stairs and I'm ready for them.
24:10
Speaker 3: They come running like eight nine up. They really get me.
24:13
Speaker 3: So when they got to the top of the stairs,
24:15
Speaker 3: I rushed them. I grabbed them, and like for three seconds,
24:20
Speaker 3: I was the mad three seconds, I was that guy.
24:25
Speaker 3: After that three seconds, I felt my feet come off
24:27
Speaker 3: the ground, I felt my.
24:29
Speaker 4: Arm being pulled back around me.
24:31
Speaker 3: But then they felt they threw me, grabbed me and
24:33
Speaker 3: threw me in myself.
24:34
Speaker 4: For you what I was in my cell, I was
24:36
Speaker 4: standing in myself.
24:37
Speaker 3: I flushed myself off and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
24:41
Speaker 3: at least I stood up for three seconds. And I
24:43
Speaker 3: lived in that three second moment for years. But as
24:47
Speaker 3: a result of standing up and feeling that in that
24:50
Speaker 3: three seconds, they looked at me different in the population.
24:53
Speaker 3: They said, well, why was someone put theyself through that?
24:56
Speaker 3: Why was someone stand up against eight nine different people
24:59
Speaker 3: just to say they innocent? And that made him take
25:01
Speaker 3: a step back and say, let's look at this guy again.
25:04
Speaker 3: And as a result, they became more leaning against me.
25:07
Speaker 3: Allowed me to more access to the law library, allowed
25:10
Speaker 3: me to move around a little.
25:11
Speaker 4: Bit more quietly.
25:12
Speaker 3: They would say, listen, we like you, we like how
25:15
Speaker 3: you move, but don't make us choose between you and
25:18
Speaker 3: our job. Because I'm gonna choose my job, and if
25:20
Speaker 3: I gotta knock your head, I'm knocking your head. So
25:22
Speaker 3: I had to learn how to maneuver within in that philosophy,
25:26
Speaker 3: and that gave me the room I needed to litigate harder,
25:30
Speaker 3: fight harder for my freedom.
25:31
Speaker 4: And that three seconds.
25:33
Speaker 3: I live in this very moment because and that three seconds,
25:36
Speaker 3: I was the champion.
25:37
Speaker 4: I needed to be it liberated me. It was only
25:39
Speaker 4: three seconds.
25:40
Speaker 3: It took him for my whole life in that moment
25:42
Speaker 3: to liberate me to be the man I am today
25:45
Speaker 3: and grow and feel strong. Now I had the rest
25:47
Speaker 3: of my life. Three seconds turned into the rest of
25:49
Speaker 3: my life. Then that changed everything for me.
25:52
Speaker 5: You literally risk your life and here comes these guys
25:54
Speaker 5: with the shields and the helmets, and they might have
25:59
Speaker 5: killed you, and nobody would have prosecuted him.
26:00
Speaker 4: If they did exactly.
26:01
Speaker 5: They would have said he rushed us, it was dangerous,
26:05
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. So you became the man in that moment,
26:08
Speaker 5: which was really a spontaneous reaction, right because.
26:11
Speaker 4: For me, that moment right there reflected in my mom
26:15
Speaker 4: I had enough.
26:15
Speaker 5: Well, because the thing is, and I keep coming back
26:17
Speaker 5: to this, right on top of the wrongful conviction, on
26:21
Speaker 5: top of the rug being pulled out from under you,
26:23
Speaker 5: with the two years, you know what you had to
26:25
Speaker 5: pleat gill you something you didn't do, then the seven years,
26:28
Speaker 5: and then really the terrifying idea of you not being
26:31
Speaker 5: able to go home and everybody else going home, and
26:33
Speaker 5: then the idea that you're in there for ten years
26:36
Speaker 5: and it's an indefinite sentence. It's not even like if
26:39
Speaker 5: they sentenced you, well, we're going to put you in
26:40
Speaker 5: this confinement thing for ten years, at least you would
26:43
Speaker 5: know at the end of ten years you're going. But
26:45
Speaker 5: you had no idea they could have kept you there forever.
26:47
Speaker 3: And because I was saying I'm innocent, that totally took
26:51
Speaker 3: me out to run it. That made me did disqualify
26:54
Speaker 3: any opportunity for my release. If it wasn't for the
26:56
Speaker 3: fact that do you pelor court finally got tired reverse
27:00
Speaker 3: in my case three times and a third time they
27:02
Speaker 3: finally was so frustrated they re assigned me a new attorney,
27:05
Speaker 3: a new judge, and then mysteriously the evidence that we
27:09
Speaker 3: were looking for up here is that we were asking
27:11
Speaker 3: for maybe ten years and nine to half ten years.
27:14
Speaker 3: They say with los pops, I don't know what we mislabeled.
27:17
Speaker 4: Here we go, and it was mislabeled this exactly.
27:23
Speaker 5: But this is another thing that's it still strikes me
27:27
Speaker 5: as nutty that and that's not strong enough word. The
27:31
Speaker 5: idea that your conviction was overturned three times, right, and
27:35
Speaker 5: these are pro sae emotions that you were filing in
27:38
Speaker 5: a pro say motion for people who haven't heard that
27:40
Speaker 5: term before means emotion filed by an inmate on their
27:43
Speaker 5: own behalf, without the benefit of a lawyer. So how
27:45
Speaker 5: does it happen that you get these convictions? And it
27:48
Speaker 5: could again talk about more rugs being pulled out from
27:50
Speaker 5: under you? Right here you are like they're going dangling
27:52
Speaker 5: you like around like a marionette. Right so you're you
27:55
Speaker 5: get this overturned and then they don't free you anyway,
27:58
Speaker 5: and then they do it again, and then they don't
27:59
Speaker 5: free you anyway, and then finally it takes a judge
28:01
Speaker 5: to go, I'm tired of this shit, right I'm tired.
28:05
Speaker 4: He was tired.
28:05
Speaker 5: Imagine how tired you wants to be, see people, I'm
28:07
Speaker 5: tired for listening to the damn story.
28:09
Speaker 3: And you know a lot of people don't really take
28:11
Speaker 3: into account how something this match affects so especially I
28:16
Speaker 3: mean personally for me, how much all of this, even
28:18
Speaker 3: from seventeen all the way up to this point, what
28:22
Speaker 3: I had to deal with as a person, as a
28:24
Speaker 3: as a young man, and to deal with this environment
28:28
Speaker 3: and to deal with the pain and separation and on
28:31
Speaker 3: that was separate from my family and had the hostility
28:34
Speaker 3: and environment had to survive and and keep my head
28:37
Speaker 3: together and hold on to hope, because you know that
28:41
Speaker 3: was you know, it was times I had to do
28:43
Speaker 3: a lot of depression. It was are the times I
28:45
Speaker 3: had to fight off, you know, saying a feeling that
28:47
Speaker 3: this was never going to end. I was always going
28:49
Speaker 3: to be in this situation that I was never going
28:52
Speaker 3: to be able to prove to anyone that I'm worthy
28:55
Speaker 3: or value someone to value me. I mean, it was
28:58
Speaker 3: so hard, you know what I'm saying, and dealing with
29:01
Speaker 3: disappointment over and over again to I used to ask myself,
29:06
Speaker 3: am I addicted to disappointment? Because it started becoming to
29:09
Speaker 3: the point where I've started becoming desensitized, like I expected
29:13
Speaker 3: to be let down. It affected me in a way
29:15
Speaker 3: whereas though I know I felt that God has to
29:19
Speaker 3: be watching over me because the fact that you know,
29:22
Speaker 3: I'm not crazy at this point, because of the experience
29:26
Speaker 3: of having to fight off all these emotions of loneliness,
29:31
Speaker 3: the emotion of feeling powerless and just disenfranchised, and all
29:36
Speaker 3: these feelings you live with, I live with for years.
29:54
Speaker 5: Can you just give us some insight into what was
29:57
Speaker 5: the worst and the best experience you had during your
30:00
Speaker 5: seventeen years locked up in the miserable conditions that you
30:03
Speaker 5: were in.
30:06
Speaker 3: The worst experience was being placed in a position to
30:11
Speaker 3: have to plead guilty to a crime I didn't commit,
30:14
Speaker 3: along with being civilly committed in the facility where the
30:19
Speaker 3: stigma was horrible, and have to live under the stigma
30:23
Speaker 3: of that environment and survived, and that such hard stigma
30:28
Speaker 3: being looked at and as someone who has those characteristics
30:33
Speaker 3: even though I didn't.
30:35
Speaker 4: The happiest moment that I had that.
30:38
Speaker 3: Kind of nullified kind of took takes and put her
30:41
Speaker 3: all that in this perspective was in the courtroom when
30:45
Speaker 3: the judge finally judged Sherry hutchs Henderson, when she finally
30:50
Speaker 3: got the DNA evident she needed from the state lab
30:53
Speaker 3: and she said to me, mister Robertson, she's apologized. He
30:59
Speaker 3: apology was so heart felt of how she felt so
31:01
Speaker 3: bad that this happened to me. But when she said
31:04
Speaker 3: I'm reversing your conviction, my support so so it was
31:08
Speaker 3: like maybe thirteen people, my niece, my sister, a lady,
31:12
Speaker 3: my mother, my friends. They bust out and like jubilate, nah.
31:18
Speaker 3: It was so loud in the courtroom. You know, they
31:20
Speaker 3: was out there like they was having the Holy goes
31:22
Speaker 3: back there like church was going on.
31:23
Speaker 4: And a judge she.
31:25
Speaker 3: Loud them to have that moment because that was their
31:27
Speaker 3: moment of vindication as well as mine, because they believe me,
31:30
Speaker 3: they stood by all those years and they we knew it.
31:33
Speaker 4: And you know, I expected to turn around see them
31:35
Speaker 4: road on the floor.
31:36
Speaker 3: But in that moment, I cried, I felt vindicated. I
31:42
Speaker 3: felt now you know, I was happy. I felt like
31:45
Speaker 3: something in my life just turned around. And in that moment,
31:49
Speaker 3: you know, hearing them cheering and empowered me. And I think,
31:53
Speaker 3: I know changed my whole walk at that point because
31:56
Speaker 3: I went back and because I had to go back
31:58
Speaker 3: to the civil commitments to be released from there. But
32:01
Speaker 3: I had that George Jefferson walk. You know what I'm saying,
32:05
Speaker 3: I'm walking on like George Jefferson now, you know.
32:08
Speaker 4: So I was.
32:11
Speaker 3: So that I made that experience right there. It was
32:15
Speaker 3: the happiest moment in my life. You know, I'm that
32:16
Speaker 3: courtroom experience. I just cannot ever erase that from my
32:20
Speaker 3: mind and heart. How wrong that made me feel doing
32:23
Speaker 3: a judge said that, and hear my family and everyone
32:26
Speaker 3: that loved me. Just so happy to hear it and
32:29
Speaker 3: know they was right because they went through a lot
32:31
Speaker 3: of turmoil and kind of visit and being discriminated against
32:36
Speaker 3: and coming inside and look down upon, like you supporting
32:39
Speaker 3: this guy and this kind of with this kind of person.
32:41
Speaker 4: With this kind of charge, and they had to go.
32:43
Speaker 3: Through all that and do it and now to find
32:46
Speaker 3: and see that they were right and had that moment
32:49
Speaker 3: where they were like elate and such, that moment, like
32:52
Speaker 3: I said, gave me that George Jefferson consence.
32:55
Speaker 4: I was walking back, everybody looking at him like I
32:57
Speaker 4: was a new guy, Like look at this guy, who
32:59
Speaker 4: is this guy here? So, yeah, that's amazing.
33:02
Speaker 5: And obviously no one can understand that feeling that hasn't
33:05
Speaker 5: been through it, but you're painting a very vivid picture
33:08
Speaker 5: and making I'm sure everyone that's listening feel that the
33:11
Speaker 5: little piece of that joy that you had and that
33:13
Speaker 5: vindication and that feeling when you were enduring. And it's
33:18
Speaker 5: so crazy. I was just thinking about the timeline of
33:20
Speaker 5: your life, right, seventeen years, then five years in prison,
33:24
Speaker 5: then seven years out, then seventeen years. It's really a
33:28
Speaker 5: crazy roller coaster ride. That's impossible for anyone to understand
33:32
Speaker 5: who hasn't lived it. And it's sort of a miracle
33:34
Speaker 5: that you're here, and it's really inspiring just to hear
33:36
Speaker 5: you talk and see the way you are. So I want,
33:39
Speaker 5: I want to ask you when you were when you
33:41
Speaker 5: were locked up, was there any particular person that gave
33:45
Speaker 5: you hope, that gave you strength.
33:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, at that time I had a support system. Her
33:50
Speaker 3: name was Linda, Linda Roberts. At this point, she was
33:52
Speaker 3: very strong in my life. Then I have a strong
33:55
Speaker 3: support system analysis Hoppen Home with Her name is Tulita James,
33:59
Speaker 3: we call her. So there was an adjustment process. But
34:03
Speaker 3: the one person who kept me moving when I was seventeen,
34:07
Speaker 3: the judge asked me, and this is the Orange record,
34:09
Speaker 3: the judge said before he sentenced me, because I was
34:12
Speaker 3: schedul to be senting so higher a sentence. But he
34:15
Speaker 3: asked me, said, is there anything you want to say?
34:16
Speaker 4: Young man?
34:18
Speaker 3: So I turned to my mother, who was crying and
34:21
Speaker 3: who I was hurting so bad because I'm her youngest son,
34:24
Speaker 3: and she just knew that this was wrong.
34:25
Speaker 4: And I said to my mother.
34:27
Speaker 3: No matter what, I'm not gonna let this destroy me
34:31
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do the best I could. I'm sorry, and
34:34
Speaker 3: I'm gonna hold on. And I talked to my mother
34:37
Speaker 3: in the courtroom, and everyone was amazed to see me
34:40
Speaker 3: and my mother at this time having this back and
34:42
Speaker 3: forth discussion because she was saying, hold on, I'm just
34:45
Speaker 3: keep in prayer and in the courtroom, and that conversation
34:50
Speaker 3: has been my mantra for all these years to tell her,
34:54
Speaker 3: let my mother know that no matter what what she
34:57
Speaker 3: instilled in me as her son and my father, but
34:59
Speaker 3: my mother, what she put in me was nothing was
35:02
Speaker 3: never going to tear that down and moral complished that
35:05
Speaker 3: she instilled in me to find my way back to right,
35:09
Speaker 3: It's never going to be taken out. And that has
35:12
Speaker 3: been my rock, my mother. She's my she and she
35:16
Speaker 3: continues to be and she will always be that my
35:20
Speaker 3: moral confisence.
35:20
Speaker 4: She is my north star. She sounds like an extraordinary
35:23
Speaker 4: she's eighty five and she can't tell her she's not fifty.
35:28
Speaker 4: And I love her.
35:29
Speaker 3: She's my strength, and she knows what she is and
35:33
Speaker 3: I just cannot get enough of her. So I adore
35:35
Speaker 3: her and she knows it, you know.
35:36
Speaker 4: So it's so important.
35:38
Speaker 5: And you just heard from Rodney that that connection remains
35:41
Speaker 5: intact between families, so between loved ones and people who
35:44
Speaker 5: are incarcerated. And you know, in this country we have
35:47
Speaker 5: such a crazy system where inmates are charged. Incarcerated people
35:51
Speaker 5: are charged five to ten times as much for collect calls,
35:56
Speaker 5: which is insane. Now they're moving away from in person
35:59
Speaker 5: visits and certain states where they're changing it to where
36:01
Speaker 5: you're going to get an iPad and you get to
36:02
Speaker 5: talk to your family members on the iPad, and it's like,
36:06
Speaker 5: I mean, we're just we're going in the wrong direction.
36:09
Speaker 5: In a lot of ways. Criminal justice system is being
36:10
Speaker 5: reformed in good ways now, but in that way, it
36:13
Speaker 5: just doesn't make any sense. Because we just heard it
36:15
Speaker 5: directly from you. It's so important to maintain that to
36:18
Speaker 5: keep that hope alive and to keep that connection strong,
36:20
Speaker 5: not just for you, but for your children or your
36:23
Speaker 5: mother or whatever reletives are on the outside that I
36:25
Speaker 5: love you and care about you. So while you were
36:28
Speaker 5: locked up the second time, were you able to maintain
36:30
Speaker 5: a relationship with your son?
36:32
Speaker 4: And how is that now? Well, my son is an
36:35
Speaker 4: amazing young man.
36:36
Speaker 3: Even what he's been doing with me out his life,
36:39
Speaker 3: he's grown to be a very strong young man. He's
36:43
Speaker 3: maybe six five, maybe two ninety. You know, he's a
36:46
Speaker 3: big guy, you know what I'm saying, very mild man,
36:49
Speaker 3: a very religious, never been involved in the law.
36:53
Speaker 4: You know. It doesn't drink or hang out anything, works,
36:57
Speaker 4: goes to church.
36:58
Speaker 3: I love who he's become all my time his absence.
37:01
Speaker 3: One thing that we always had that kept us together
37:04
Speaker 3: was we had a passion for reading. I told him
37:07
Speaker 3: how to read, basically, and he would get on the
37:09
Speaker 3: phone and he would read to me.
37:11
Speaker 4: And actually, freaking we learned how to read together.
37:14
Speaker 3: Do comic books. I would buy comic books and I
37:17
Speaker 3: would buy him one. I'd buy me one and I
37:19
Speaker 3: would reading and he would read it, and we would
37:21
Speaker 3: talk about the comic books. And that's how we develop
37:24
Speaker 3: our relationship to reading. And to this day we still
37:28
Speaker 3: talk about comic books. Even we're both so amazed at
37:31
Speaker 3: the new Marvel movies. We run to see him together
37:34
Speaker 3: because we read about him all his life and me
37:36
Speaker 3: all my life.
37:36
Speaker 4: Really, and you have a lady in your life now, yes.
37:39
Speaker 3: I do, a beautiful young lady who has been patient
37:42
Speaker 3: with me even all my adjustment and Talada James Della James,
37:46
Speaker 3: who has dealt with ups and downs with myself and herself,
37:49
Speaker 3: and we struggled together, and I appreciate everything she's done
37:53
Speaker 3: for me and with me and to me. It helped
37:56
Speaker 3: me become a stronger man in my adjustment process.
37:59
Speaker 5: Friday is sharp dress. Guy was complimenting him before on
38:02
Speaker 5: his shoes. He's got a nice, beautiful Chris White shirt.
38:04
Speaker 5: And he told me, actually the credible laws to her right.
38:06
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I don't even pick my own clothes.
38:09
Speaker 3: I go in the store and I picked something up
38:11
Speaker 3: and she ignores it. So then what you know, she
38:15
Speaker 3: even because I came home I was like two ninety
38:18
Speaker 3: myself and wait, she helped me even in my healthier eating,
38:22
Speaker 3: you know, working out. I mean, there has been an
38:25
Speaker 3: adjustment process with her there in my life, and I
38:28
Speaker 3: only pray that I contributed something strong to her life
38:31
Speaker 3: through my strength friends to her that makes her know
38:34
Speaker 3: that there's always in resilience and you could come back
38:38
Speaker 3: from anything, you know, saying nothing this overwhelming in life
38:41
Speaker 3: that you can't start all over and be strong through.
38:44
Speaker 3: So I'm hoping that my experiences and hussying me what
38:47
Speaker 3: I've been through and still being strong enough man to
38:50
Speaker 3: make her want to love me.
38:52
Speaker 4: Has contributed to her life as well.
38:54
Speaker 3: And with that, you know, I have six sisters to
38:56
Speaker 3: one path away, my younger sisters sharing. But there's oh
39:00
Speaker 3: and they they're like parole officers, you know. They I
39:03
Speaker 3: have to check in with them. And if I was
39:05
Speaker 3: checking with them, there's a so yeah. So I I
39:09
Speaker 3: have some strong, beautiful women in my life that really
39:14
Speaker 3: supervised me, so to speak, and take care of me
39:16
Speaker 3: and help me along the way. And I think this
39:18
Speaker 3: made me a much stronger man and much confident man
39:21
Speaker 3: as well. I came home this time, and I was
39:24
Speaker 3: blessed to come home this time, and I say to myself,
39:27
Speaker 3: I'm able to talk about these feelings, but feeling them
39:30
Speaker 3: at the moment was was like so sad for me.
39:34
Speaker 3: I used to have moments where I would be sad
39:36
Speaker 3: for like days.
39:38
Speaker 4: And I'd be like, pull myself. I we gonna come on,
39:40
Speaker 4: you gotta pull yourself out of this.
39:41
Speaker 3: I used to have to coach myself and give myself
39:45
Speaker 3: pep talk sober and come on, man, you got people
39:48
Speaker 3: was like you over there talking to yourself again. I'm like, listen,
39:50
Speaker 3: this is the best conversation I've had all day and
39:53
Speaker 3: you know, to pull myself out of stage of what
39:56
Speaker 3: I just felt like.
39:57
Speaker 4: It was so much overwhelming.
39:59
Speaker 3: And you know, can't begin to tell all the years
40:03
Speaker 3: because we're talking about since seventeen and then now and
40:08
Speaker 3: how much suffering it felt like. I mean, I feel
40:11
Speaker 3: that's why today I advocate because I can identify with suffering.
40:16
Speaker 3: You know, I don't like to see anything suffer, and
40:20
Speaker 3: that's from animals to people, to the plants to anything,
40:23
Speaker 3: because I know what it feels like to suffer. I
40:26
Speaker 3: know it feels like to be put in a position
40:28
Speaker 3: that you know, where you're just hurting inside emotionally and psychologically,
40:32
Speaker 3: that you just want some help from somewhere, you know.
40:36
Speaker 4: And that's why I stand today, because I just want
40:39
Speaker 4: to be.
40:39
Speaker 3: That for someone who may feel hopeless and feel like
40:42
Speaker 3: there's knowing.
40:43
Speaker 4: The Navy they.
40:44
Speaker 3: See me and they say, you know, this guy, you
40:46
Speaker 3: know is just someone out there that understands and cares
40:49
Speaker 3: because I felt there was knowing As a result. Now,
40:52
Speaker 3: I just started the Rodney Roberts Foundation.
40:54
Speaker 4: Oh tell me about that.
40:56
Speaker 3: What I offer is the one thing that most in
40:59
Speaker 3: the visuals who have been wrong for convicted, and not
41:02
Speaker 3: just wrong for convicted, but particularly the wrong for convicted,
41:05
Speaker 3: but individuals who've come home and feel as there's no
41:09
Speaker 3: one to connect with because in the wrong for convision
41:11
Speaker 3: community the one thing we don't have. No state has
41:14
Speaker 3: an agency that provides housing, work assistance, counseling.
41:20
Speaker 4: No state has that.
41:21
Speaker 3: So you would let come home and there's no way
41:23
Speaker 3: for you to turn because some states made me feel
41:26
Speaker 3: they don't want to make that answer. You have nowhere
41:27
Speaker 3: to go to, so you have no opportunities there. Myself,
41:31
Speaker 3: when I came home, I had to compete with my
41:34
Speaker 3: counterparts with gods on parole, probation for jobs and training
41:38
Speaker 3: and treatment. And I'm going in and saying, look, I'm innocent.
41:40
Speaker 3: I was just exonerated, and employees like, listen, hey man,
41:43
Speaker 3: that's a great story.
41:44
Speaker 4: And we did.
41:45
Speaker 3: But we're in the money making business and we would
41:47
Speaker 3: rather hire that God on parole because we could tax deductions.
41:50
Speaker 4: For hey.
41:52
Speaker 3: One playee told me that he's like, well, I can
41:54
Speaker 3: tax the duction behind Gods and parole.
41:55
Speaker 4: He was like, you a great guy.
41:56
Speaker 3: I'm sorry what happened to you, but I had to
41:58
Speaker 3: hire this guy plus you on seventeen years, so we
42:01
Speaker 3: don't know. So I was left in a void, and
42:04
Speaker 3: so I had to.
42:05
Speaker 4: Literally create a job for myself.
42:07
Speaker 3: I had to literally create an opportunity for myself by
42:10
Speaker 3: taking that frustration that being denied, have no place to
42:14
Speaker 3: fit in and taking the passion that I have to
42:18
Speaker 3: advocate against this injustice, prosecutory misconducting and ineffectious accounts of
42:24
Speaker 3: course play agreements. And I started talking about it on
42:27
Speaker 3: a basis where people started listening and saying, you know what,
42:31
Speaker 3: we like what he's saying because.
42:32
Speaker 4: He's relevant, it's right on time, and we think there
42:35
Speaker 4: needs to be heard.
42:37
Speaker 3: And I was brought into like an organization like the
42:39
Speaker 3: Innocent Project, who will give me assignments and say, Ronnie Gore,
42:43
Speaker 3: who you work with us and speak here. We can
42:46
Speaker 3: help you with a little conversation here. And that grew
42:50
Speaker 3: into me working closely with them, and me making the
42:53
Speaker 3: commercials with them, and me doing other work with them.
42:57
Speaker 3: And Jeffrey Desker had the Jeffrey Desker found brought me
43:01
Speaker 3: in and helped me school me in a way with
43:04
Speaker 3: you know, this is what you need to be saying,
43:06
Speaker 3: and this is how you should present and this is
43:08
Speaker 3: we're gonna give you this little space here. So the
43:11
Speaker 3: Rodney Robertson Foundation is a representation of all that experience.
43:16
Speaker 3: What I want to do is I want to give
43:17
Speaker 3: an opportunity for those who have been wrong, for the
43:19
Speaker 3: convicted to be able to reach out that's currently incarcerated
43:24
Speaker 3: to reach out, so in New Jersey because New Jersey
43:27
Speaker 3: is far behind and everything what comes from wrong for convicted,
43:30
Speaker 3: even currently saying legislation is being challenged now. But I
43:34
Speaker 3: want to be that help with with job placement, help
43:37
Speaker 3: fund housing, help with counseling, which is most important, which
43:42
Speaker 3: even myself after all these years, is an important feature,
43:46
Speaker 3: even for myself, to help with counseling, to help with
43:49
Speaker 3: reconnecting those with their families, because the one group that
43:53
Speaker 3: suffers the most and most is the family.
43:56
Speaker 4: They see the person locked up, but once.
43:58
Speaker 3: A family members locked up, the whole family's basically locked
44:01
Speaker 3: up and so a degree because they can't stop being
44:04
Speaker 3: connected with their love on so they suffer as well.
44:07
Speaker 3: And they the families have to also be educated on
44:11
Speaker 3: what's necessary to help this person reintegrate and what's to
44:14
Speaker 3: look for and what characteristics to look for when you
44:17
Speaker 3: see a person slipping leaves, the recidivism and when you
44:21
Speaker 3: see signs of depression or feeling and hopeless. So the
44:25
Speaker 3: Rodney Robins Foundation has multifacts in that level and also
44:29
Speaker 3: with the public speaking aspect as well.
44:32
Speaker 4: Right now, I have the Rottney Royis Foundation, I have
44:35
Speaker 4: what I'm doing.
44:35
Speaker 3: I have a go fund account that I'm trying to
44:38
Speaker 3: raise money now to create a platform to bring people
44:41
Speaker 3: in like get a staff.
44:42
Speaker 4: That's my goal is to have a staff.
44:44
Speaker 3: And a permanent location and office in New Jersey where
44:47
Speaker 3: and I'm growing from there and have my emails set
44:50
Speaker 3: up Rodney Roberts Foundation ninety six at gmail dot com
44:53
Speaker 3: and also the Rodney Roberts Foundation. What we're gonna do also,
44:56
Speaker 3: we're gonna collaborate with other organizations to fight against wrong
45:00
Speaker 3: who convictions, prosecutorium misconduct, ineffectual Accouncil.
45:04
Speaker 4: We're gonna try to grow in that degree.
45:06
Speaker 3: Right now, I don't want to put the bugget before
45:08
Speaker 3: the horse because I'm not elevated to that level. You
45:11
Speaker 3: have to be as prestigious as some of the organizations.
45:13
Speaker 4: That they're book cold on.
45:15
Speaker 3: Because I'm on my way, I'm headed in the right
45:19
Speaker 3: direction and with the passion and ideas and energy, and
45:24
Speaker 3: I'm headed there and I'm gonna build and have someone
45:27
Speaker 3: so when everyone New Jersey and worldwide can connect to also.
45:31
Speaker 5: And that's really exciting that you're doing that. I think
45:33
Speaker 5: you're gonna make a big difference in a lot of
45:34
Speaker 5: people's lives.
45:36
Speaker 4: What can people do?
45:37
Speaker 5: Obviously, I hope people will support join me in supporting
45:40
Speaker 5: because I'm going to support you in the Roddy Roberts Foundation.
45:43
Speaker 4: But what else can people do? Well?
45:46
Speaker 3: I think, particularly if their loved one is gold, how
45:49
Speaker 3: close they are, if it's a family member that you're
45:52
Speaker 3: directly related to, it close with The first thing you
45:54
Speaker 3: need to reach out to their attorney, find out who
45:57
Speaker 3: the attorney is, who's representing them, and get their discoveries,
46:02
Speaker 3: get whatever paperwork with those documents they have. Get familiar
46:06
Speaker 3: with what the record says yourself and try to understand that,
46:10
Speaker 3: because the first thing you had to do is educate
46:12
Speaker 3: yourself because most time we rely on hearsay what this
46:17
Speaker 3: attorney says or this person says, and that.
46:20
Speaker 4: Could be misleading.
46:21
Speaker 3: If you are in a position to find out yourself,
46:24
Speaker 3: you could read through their paperwork, their discoveries and decipher
46:28
Speaker 3: what's being said, or do not help the family member
46:31
Speaker 3: understand exactly what's being.
46:32
Speaker 4: Charged and how to approach the situation.
46:36
Speaker 3: Secondly, just a visit, a card, a letter, at some point,
46:42
Speaker 3: take some time out to show that person that they're
46:45
Speaker 3: not forgotten and that strength.
46:47
Speaker 4: Is the person.
46:47
Speaker 3: You don't know how much it feels good to sit
46:51
Speaker 3: there and then hear when they do a mail call
46:53
Speaker 3: and you're waiting and you hear everybody else's name call
46:55
Speaker 3: and your name and not call over and over.
46:57
Speaker 4: Then one day you hear your name.
46:59
Speaker 3: Oh if I just you run to get this letter
47:02
Speaker 3: because now you know someone out there has reached back inside.
47:06
Speaker 3: So even that something simple as that is major or something.
47:10
Speaker 3: And understand that when a person is released and they
47:12
Speaker 3: come home, they're going through a sort of a culture
47:15
Speaker 3: shock or a reverse culture shock. They're going through a
47:17
Speaker 3: process where they released from one environment to another, and
47:21
Speaker 3: this change they have to unlearn what they just learned,
47:25
Speaker 3: you know, and to relearn what they already knew about
47:27
Speaker 3: how the interact and society. You're talking about people who
47:30
Speaker 3: are a person who just went through a prison experience
47:34
Speaker 3: and where they had to begin the controlled environment where
47:37
Speaker 3: they had to stand in line and eat and had
47:39
Speaker 3: eaten a certain period of time.
47:41
Speaker 4: And you know, these things are built into you.
47:43
Speaker 3: When you do the same repetitive thing over and over again,
47:46
Speaker 3: become institutionalized. Now you have to come home and to
47:49
Speaker 3: a new environment and the shock of that, which is
47:51
Speaker 3: you know, it's just culture shock because you really unlearn
47:55
Speaker 3: all this and then to readjust yourself back to being free.
48:00
Speaker 4: I understand that that process is not it's easy, even
48:03
Speaker 4: if the person makes it look easy. It's not easy.
48:06
Speaker 1: There.
48:06
Speaker 3: There's a pretend there because this affects anyone that's been
48:10
Speaker 3: locked up in a long period of time.
48:11
Speaker 4: So make sure to give them enough cushions so that
48:13
Speaker 4: they can have those moments.
48:16
Speaker 3: Well, but you may see like myself, you know, when
48:20
Speaker 3: I first came home, you know, because in the prison,
48:23
Speaker 3: you go to take a shower, you take a shower,
48:25
Speaker 3: you're underwear, and you watch it. When I went home,
48:28
Speaker 3: came home, I went to shout the money, and the
48:29
Speaker 3: lady like, what are you doing so? And I was like,
48:33
Speaker 3: I don't want to watch you like listen, you're not there,
48:35
Speaker 3: and so you know, so I so you look for
48:38
Speaker 3: a little sounds like that where they're sitting at the
48:41
Speaker 3: table and they take this poon and put it inside
48:43
Speaker 3: the cup, and.
48:44
Speaker 4: You're You're like, what are you doing? You know, it's
48:46
Speaker 4: a little jail house things that.
48:48
Speaker 3: People have to shed and little psychological things that people
48:52
Speaker 3: may do. Have a little more patience with the loved one.
48:56
Speaker 5: I want to I want to reinforce one point that
48:58
Speaker 5: you made which is so powerful and I'm glad you
49:00
Speaker 5: said it, which is that it's so important that people
49:03
Speaker 5: understand that just because your loved one or even you
49:07
Speaker 5: have a lawyer, doesn't mean that lawyer is doing a
49:10
Speaker 5: great job. Even the best intentions. Sometimes in the court system,
49:13
Speaker 5: which we know is not always the best attention, but
49:15
Speaker 5: mistakes are made. So even if you have a good
49:17
Speaker 5: defense lawyer, they might be going through something in their life.
49:19
Speaker 5: They might miss a detail. So if you have that
49:22
Speaker 5: opportunity to be able to read those papers and those transcripts,
49:25
Speaker 5: you might be able to find that piece of evidence
49:28
Speaker 5: or that legal principle that might help yourself or your
49:31
Speaker 5: loved one, and you can present that to your lawyer
49:34
Speaker 5: and they may have missed it. And so that's such
49:36
Speaker 5: a great point that you brought up. And now, Ronnie,
49:38
Speaker 5: we have a tradition on wrongful conviction, which is that
49:42
Speaker 5: I like to just sit here and listen and let
49:45
Speaker 5: you talk about anything you think you may have left out.
49:48
Speaker 5: You know, you got so much, so much knowledge. It's
49:50
Speaker 5: so much hard and so much to share. So I
49:52
Speaker 5: just want to give you a chance to just say
49:55
Speaker 5: anything at all that you want.
49:57
Speaker 4: Wow.
49:59
Speaker 3: I just, you know, even given that opportunity, I once
50:03
Speaker 3: read that it says that ammire a person who's been
50:07
Speaker 3: through hell and came out, but takes buckets of water
50:11
Speaker 3: back to those who are there. And even this moment,
50:14
Speaker 3: I still want to hold dear to my passion and
50:18
Speaker 3: try to reach out to others as well. And at
50:22
Speaker 3: this point, through the Rodney Roberts Foundation, I'm just trying
50:25
Speaker 3: to buy a bigger bucket because I went back, I
50:27
Speaker 3: took buckets there, and I found out that my buckets
50:29
Speaker 3: need to be a little bit bigger to provide more
50:32
Speaker 3: service to a larger group of people. And just that,
50:36
Speaker 3: just you know, I want to continue to stay close
50:40
Speaker 3: to the front line and stay close to you know,
50:45
Speaker 3: fighting alongside the champions such as yourself and others, and
50:50
Speaker 3: trying to expose something in this country that has becoming
50:53
Speaker 3: a phenomenon now is why it's wrong for convision and
50:57
Speaker 3: prostitutory in Wisconda and ineffects us accounsels and continue to
51:01
Speaker 3: be on a positive path and a productive path. And
51:05
Speaker 3: I can make myself and my mother and my loved
51:08
Speaker 3: ones proud to proud of me and proud to be
51:11
Speaker 3: associated with me. So that's it for me.
51:14
Speaker 5: Well, for anyone who's listening, you've now heard the extraordinary
51:18
Speaker 5: saga and the equally extraordinary spirit of Rodney Roberts. I
51:22
Speaker 5: hope you'll consider donating to the Rodney Roberts Foundation. For
51:25
Speaker 5: every dollar that anyone donates myself and Wrongful Conviction, we
51:29
Speaker 5: will match up to ten thousand dollars, so we'll get
51:32
Speaker 5: you off to a good start there, and we'll be
51:35
Speaker 5: very proud to continue to support you as you do
51:38
Speaker 5: this amazing life saving work. And I'm just really I'm
51:42
Speaker 5: just proud to know you and happy to call you
51:44
Speaker 5: a friend. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing
51:47
Speaker 5: your experienced strength and wisdom with our audience. And I
51:51
Speaker 5: want to thank you again, Rodney, and you've been listening
51:54
Speaker 5: to a very unique and tremendous episode of wrongful conviction.
52:00
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you.
52:08
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
52:10
Speaker 5: get your podcasts.
52:11
Speaker 1: It really helps.
52:13
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
52:16
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
52:18
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
52:22
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and
52:26
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
52:29
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
52:31
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
52:35
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
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52:43
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52:46
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one