Latest / Speaking of Meaning / Why You Feel Powerless (And How to Take Control Back) | Professor Chris Lipp

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Why You Feel Powerless (And How to Take Control Back) | Professor Chris Lipp · Speaking of Meaning

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  Welcome to Speaking of Meaning The podcast that helps you
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  become a stronger
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  communicator Build deeper relationships and create impact that
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  matters I'm your
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  SPEAKER_00: host,
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  SPEAKER_00: Ibrahim A professional speaker,
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  SPEAKER_00: soccer referee
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  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the show, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am Ibrahim and today I'm joined by Chris Lipp.
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  SPEAKER_00: Chris is Professor of Management Communication at Tulane University.
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  SPEAKER_00: He has written several books on persuasion and personal power.
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  And one of his books,
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  one of my favorite is The Science of Personal Power.
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  SPEAKER_00: Chris has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Newsweek.
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  SPEAKER_00: Chris, welcome to the show.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure.
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  SPEAKER_00: Chris, the topic personal power is so broad.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is also complex.
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  SPEAKER_00: How did you end up writing and being so involved with this topic?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people misunderstand what power is first off, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: We tend to think about like things like dominance.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so there's this whole branch of leadership,
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  which is about servant leadership versus dominant leadership
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  and all these things.
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  SPEAKER_01: My angle was communication and I studied persuasion.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then I wrote a few books on persuasion,
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  SPEAKER_01: including the startup pitch,
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  SPEAKER_01: which helps founders really pitch themselves.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what I found with communication was twofold.
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  Number one is that when you teach communication skills,
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  A,
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  I'll just be clear.
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  SPEAKER_01: It just wasn't super satisfying all the time how much I was doing it.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  I teach at a university stuff because it doesn't really touch
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  the core of a person,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a skill set.
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  I think there's more that we communicate when just our words
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  when we're communicating.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really leads to kind of the second reason,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is when you actually look at what makes successful communication,
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  SPEAKER_01: it has a lot more to do with than just tactics and strategies.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: We can,
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  SPEAKER_01: for example,
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  you can take somebody who is a salesperson and they know all
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  the techniques and
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  SPEAKER_01: stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: But for some reason,
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  SPEAKER_01: sometimes when they just feel confident,
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  SPEAKER_01: they just get,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: they just succeed.
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  SPEAKER_01: They close the deal.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so there's this fuzzy word confidence.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: ask my students at university,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: what do you,
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  SPEAKER_01: what do you think confidence is and where does it come from and stuff?
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  But it just goes to show that there's something behind our
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  words that has a lot
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  SPEAKER_01: more impact than the words themselves.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the science is called personal power that really studies that.
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  SPEAKER_01: What is personal power?
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  SPEAKER_01: Personal power is a belief in our own capability to create impact.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's a belief, it's an unconscious belief, and one
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  SPEAKER_01: It's very similar to self-esteem.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when we have a belief that we can create impact,
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  we speak in a certain way that's very different than if we
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  don't have a strong
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  SPEAKER_01: belief about that.
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  And the words we use,
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  the way we speak,
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  the way we hold our boundaries,
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  all change.
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  SPEAKER_01: And as a result of that,
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  SPEAKER_01: we tend to be much more persuasive,
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  SPEAKER_01: much more leaderly,
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  SPEAKER_01: much more,
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  SPEAKER_01: people would say,
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  SPEAKER_01: confident and trustworthy.
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  SPEAKER_00: So
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  SPEAKER_00: It's related to self-esteem, basically, right?
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  In some ways,
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  you could say personal power is one of the foundations of
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  self-esteem,
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  100%.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so is it an internal factor or is it something externally?
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  SPEAKER_01: So if we're going to get jumping right into power,
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  I think one of the biggest challenges people face with their
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  personal power is
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  SPEAKER_01: seeking it externally.
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  SPEAKER_01: So for example, for external validation and
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  SPEAKER_01: The way this shows up,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  in people's careers is we tend to work with people in a way
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  where we're trying to
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  SPEAKER_01: get them to like us.
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  Like this desire for likability in order for our colleagues to
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  work with us,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_01: And if they don't like us, they won't work with us.
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  And so we sometimes bend over backwards even to seek their
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  validation at some level
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  SPEAKER_01: so that we can succeed at our own job.
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  SPEAKER_01: Even our boss is particularly our boss, right?
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  How much do you want your boss to like you so that you get the
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  promotion or at
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  SPEAKER_01: least you don't get fired?
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  SPEAKER_01: Ironically,
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  SPEAKER_01: though,
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  it is in the very validation seeking that we are most likely to
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  underperform and to
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  SPEAKER_01: not be supported.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the biggest challenges,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  for somebody who's developing their personal power is they have
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  to take the very
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  anxiety producing step of stepping away from seeking liking and
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  stepping into
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  SPEAKER_01: building relationships through respect.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Respect is not being hard or soft.
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  SPEAKER_01: It has nothing to do with that.
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  SPEAKER_01: It has nothing to do with dominance or servant leadership.
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  SPEAKER_01: It has a lot more to do with, again, this belief in how
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  SPEAKER_01: How much power do we think we have in the world?
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  And when we feel like we have a lot of power,
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  we act much more goal-focused.
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  We're much more open to also working with other people towards
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  goals versus being
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  SPEAKER_01: consumed with comparing ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether we're better or worse,
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  SPEAKER_01: or trying to vie for power in some way.
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  SPEAKER_01: Those are just not powerful behaviors.
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  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like this is not just applicable in our careers,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also when it comes to having friends or
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  SPEAKER_00: when we're dating somebody as well.
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  You know,
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  we can almost feel it when somebody's trying too hard to get
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  our approval.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
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  I mean,
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  every relationship there is a power dynamic and healthy
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  relationships have
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  Certain features about that that doesn't require one partner to
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  be less powerful
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  SPEAKER_01: than the other.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you see this particularly in romantic relationships.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can have romantic relationships where you don't respect your partner.
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  I've seen marriages dissolve where somebody recognizing their
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  partner is losing
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  attraction for them bends over backwards to be approved of by
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  their partner.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that only speedens up
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  The demise of that relationship Because what they're really
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  doing Is they're giving
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  away their power And in the process of giving away their power
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  They're giving away
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  SPEAKER_01: their attraction Which is unfortunate You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in this downward spiral Why is it not attractive to try hard?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why does it turn us off?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not about trying hard or not.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's about the reason for trying.
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  SPEAKER_01: So if you're genuinely interested in somebody,
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  SPEAKER_01: and for example,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're chasing somebody,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're dating,
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  SPEAKER_01: that can be a huge turn on.
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  SPEAKER_01: But if you're approval seeking,
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  meaning you're trying to chase them because you want to feel
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  better about yourself,
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  SPEAKER_01: you need something from them,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: There's the real trick.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you need something from the other person,
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  SPEAKER_01: then your chasing of them is not for them,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And people...
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's a myriad way that we communicate that through our body,
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  through our tone and through the words we choose that people
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  can read our power and
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  SPEAKER_01: read what's really going on there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so then they will judge us as weak or strong.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's not about chasing.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's more about,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  that I want them to approve of myself and I want to get
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  something out of that
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  SPEAKER_00: relationship.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're absolutely right.
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  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
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  SPEAKER_01: the definition,
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  kind of the simplest definition I've ever got that contrasts a
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  high-power person
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  SPEAKER_01: versus a low-power person,
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  SPEAKER_01: high-power people are focused on their own goals.
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  SPEAKER_01: Low-power people are focused on the approval of others.
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  SPEAKER_01: Period.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're,
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  SPEAKER_01: let's say you're in this position right now,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you had some listeners here,
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  but maybe you're going through a tough time in your
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  relationship and you're scared.
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  I mean,
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  who wouldn't be scared if the relationship was starting to
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  teeter?
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  And if you react to your anxiety and you try to seek approval
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  of your partner by
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  SPEAKER_01: doing things like buying them flowers and stuff for approval seeking,
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  you're actually going to appear maybe a little less weak or a
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  little more weak.
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  SPEAKER_01: But let's say you do those same actions,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're setting up dates out,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're buying flowers,
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  but you're doing it because you care about the relationship and
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  you want to
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  SPEAKER_01: demonstrate the relationship as an important goal for you.
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  You will do those same behaviors with a different energy that
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  makes all the
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  SPEAKER_01: difference in attraction.
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  So what I hear you say is people pick up on that energy on your
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  intention.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  And so one of the things,
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  you know,
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  I just can kind of riff off this a little bit.
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  I think one thing that a lot of us today misunderstand about
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  power and why it's a
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  relatively new field is that people tend to look at our goal of
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  it being an action
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  SPEAKER_01: or winning versus losing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Let's say we want to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  we want to demonstrate that we've had a work success and we
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  want to avoid failure.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what's very fascinating about the research on personal power is
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  what you do just like buying roses has a lot less to do with
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  the actual action and
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  it has a lot more to do with the motivation behind the action
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  and this comes out
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  for example and when people try to appear real when for example
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  one of the most
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  SPEAKER_01: powerful things you can do to show your power to other people is to take
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  accountability taking accountability is an affirmation of the
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  power you have in the
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  world it means I'm responsible for this and if I'm responsible
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  for this I have
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  SPEAKER_01: power over this mm-hmm
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  Conversely,
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  people who,
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  people tend to see,
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  well,
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  I don't want to have failure.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they,
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  SPEAKER_01: rather than assign myself,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: let's say you run a project at work and it fails,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: You might just want to distance yourself from that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Very logical.
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  SPEAKER_01: But here's the problem.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you start to blame the failure of that project on something else,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the client or other colleagues and things,
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  SPEAKER_01: your blame indicates to whomever you're speaking to that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that person or those people had power,
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  SPEAKER_01: not you.
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  Because that which affects the success or failure of something
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  is the power.
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  and so when you blame you're saying I didn't have any power
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  over this somebody else
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  did and if you do and there's a lot of research that shows for
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  example managers who
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  blame failures on others including their team or their clients
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  are seen as much
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  weaker and trusted much less than managers who are like yeah
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  that's my failure I
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  totally own that those managers are respected more and trusted
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  more and I think
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  trust is such an important thing you think even relationships
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  trust is so critical
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  and when you blame you're saying I have no power over something
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  and when you say I
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  SPEAKER_01: have no power over something
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  SPEAKER_01: Other people cannot trust you.
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  It's just there's no basis for trust because you literally have
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  no ability to take ownership.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: You see that?
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  SPEAKER_00: This is very interesting because in your book,
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  SPEAKER_00: you actually write that blame is low power behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're four horsemen.
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  SPEAKER_01: I call them the four horsemen of personal power.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you want to be powerful,
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  if you want to be one of these people who walk into a room and
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  everybody's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: that guy's a star or that woman's a star,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you want to be the person in a relationship,
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  SPEAKER_01: like you're respected,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're loved,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're valued.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need to have that personal power.
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  SPEAKER_01: Again,
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  it's a personal quality and it's what makes people attractive
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  professionally and
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  SPEAKER_01: personally.
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  SPEAKER_01: and there are four horsemen to really destroying your personal power.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are four ways that you can kill it.
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  SPEAKER_01: One, blame.
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  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you blame again, you just show powerlessness.
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  SPEAKER_01: Number two is to react.
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  So if you're reacting to other people rather than focused on
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  your own goals,
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  SPEAKER_01: Three is you got to take action.
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  SPEAKER_01: So people who deliberate too much and they never take action.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're very, you know, chronic procrastinators.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're not seen as powerful because powerful people have action.
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  SPEAKER_01: They take action in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: So blame, action, reaction.
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  SPEAKER_01: The fourth is proving.
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  Proving is a very low power behavior because it means the other
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  person has the
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  SPEAKER_01: power to evaluate you and they're making the choice.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is why where we come back to relationships, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: If you're buying flowers and you're trying to prove to your wife,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: that you're a good person,
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  SPEAKER_01: you kind of
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  On the losing ground because you're not saying you're strong,
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  you're saying,
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  I need approval.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is blame.
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  SPEAKER_00: The second one is reacting.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in your book you say, don't react, act.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Act instead.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the third one is...
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  SPEAKER_01: Inaction is the third one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Inaction.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we have the fourth one, proving.
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  SPEAKER_00: Proving.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which one is the most common, you think?
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think the most common is proving.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of people at work.
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  SPEAKER_01: I coach clients on their communication and their power.
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  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people who are kind of mid-level leaders.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they want to be seen positively by executive leadership.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're also leading a lot of the team within the organization.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they're in this kind of middle place.
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  And they want to go up into executive leadership They know
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  there's something
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  different about executive leadership versus mid-level
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  leadership And so we go
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  through this And what I see as one of the biggest barriers
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  There's a couple But one
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  SPEAKER_01: of the biggest barriers is there's
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  SPEAKER_01: There's still people who are operating on being liked.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so they're really burning themselves out,
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  SPEAKER_01: for example,
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  looking at executive leadership and trying to prove how great
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  they are to executive
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  SPEAKER_01: leadership.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then at the same time,
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  they feel that that way to prove that they're good leaders to
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  all the people who
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  SPEAKER_01: report to them and other people around the organization.
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  And that just they're never really focused on the goal of the
• 13:23
  organization.
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  They're focused on seeking that approval,
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  which is very tiring,
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  very anxiety producing.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not a very strong place to put your anchor when it's outside of you.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the biggest and we can talk about the other one.
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  SPEAKER_01: The other one happens to be the big picture thinking.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's many leaders do in visionary behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you mean see the forest instead of each tree?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: fascinating,
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  another fascinating psychological discovery about personal
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  power and people who see
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  others as powerful is those who are powerful tend to see the
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  forest from the trees.
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  They're the ones who can really see the big picture and then
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  they communicate that
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  SPEAKER_01: picture down to everybody who's working under them,
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  which is why they make such great leaders because they can
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  really see the whole
• 14:07
  machine and understand how each piece operates together and
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  help each piece operate
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  SPEAKER_01: within that machine.
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  SPEAKER_01: Conversely,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: the person who's really just focused on one aspect of the organization,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: marketing,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: finance,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: engineering,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: all of these are necessary and important roles.
• 14:22
  But what makes a manager in any one of these fields is the
• 14:26
  ability to step out of
• 14:27
  just the problem which they're solving and to really get a
• 14:30
  better perspective of
• 14:31
  the importance of their role within the larger puzzle of that
• 14:35
  organization.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is interesting because in your book, you talk about
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned abstract language versus concrete language.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:49
  How is that related to finding meaning and seeing the vision
• 14:52
  and communicating that vision?
• 14:58
  If you were to speak to an executive or somebody who's above
• 15:02
  you in leadership,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: their perspective is naturally bigger,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: You are part of a project, they're bigger goals, right?
• 15:08
  You're a piece in their puzzle and they're a piece in somebody
• 15:10
  else's puzzle.
• 15:11
  And the closer you,
• 15:12
  the higher you get,
• 15:13
  the more view you have up the mountain,
• 15:15
  right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: As you say,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: and you look down at the valley and you can see more,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: you can see more how pieces operate until you,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: imagine like a NASA astronaut who's just outside looking at the earth,
• 15:24
  you see the whole planet and you really understand how humans
• 15:27
  all are connected.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: But as you go way in,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: you see nations,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: you see borders,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: and then you even see like how your neighbors are different than you,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or how some, you know, different political parties.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a distance, right?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: That gives you perspective.
• 15:40
  And so what research has found is that people who tend to be
• 15:43
  lower power tend to
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: have very,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: they're focused very precisely on things in front of them.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Very concrete issues.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like we need to get
• 15:51
  this piece working,
• 15:52
  you know,
• 15:52
  imagine a mechanic in a car like this,
• 15:55
  this is not operating.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need to replace,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: the engine or the starter or people who have that kind of granular level,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: super important.
• 16:02
  You know,
• 16:02
  I was,
• 16:03
  I was an engineer before I became,
• 16:05
  before I moved into communication.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what engineering is.
• 16:08
  You're tackling very difficult,
• 16:10
  complex technical problems that require a lot of focus.
• 16:14
  And so there's nothing,
• 16:16
  there's nothing inherently wrong with having very strong focus,
• 16:20
  but
• 16:21
  What differentiates a leader according to the science and
• 16:24
  according to the stories
• 16:26
  that I've collected over the years of executives is the ability
• 16:29
  to step back from
• 16:31
  that technical detail and just see how that is a part of a
• 16:35
  larger picture within
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: the organization.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what science has shown.
• 16:38
  Science has shown in research and psychology that people who
• 16:41
  speak more concretely,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: meaning speaking about tangible things,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: are seen as less powerful than those who speak more abstractly.
• 16:50
  So somebody who speaks about,
• 16:52
  hey,
• 16:52
  is it illegal to cross the street on a red light?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say you want to just jaywalk across the street, right?
• 16:59
  Somebody who's talking about the law at that level is not seen
• 17:02
  as somebody who's as
• 17:03
  powerful as somebody who's speaking about justice and equality
• 17:06
  and fairness for
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: every individual within the country.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Justice is abstract.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: a very specific law is very concrete.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Both are important,
• 17:17
  but the person who's seen as more leaderly is the person who
• 17:20
  can speak and see more
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: abstractly.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I find your book very fascinating,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Chris,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: because it is not just your experience or only what you think,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: but it's also backed by research and science.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I used the science to create the model.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have opinions.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what does science say?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: What does the research say?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:44
  Have you yourself struggled with some of the things you talk
• 17:47
  about in the book?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Every human, I think, struggles with this.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: We are,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: through our various relationships,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: even throughout a single day,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: we feel high power sometimes,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: and we call that confidence.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: We feel low power sometimes, we call that a little bit of anxiety.
• 18:03
  Our ability to understand the levers that is creating us to
• 18:07
  feel more anxious or more confident
• 18:10
  gives us more power to be one or the other,
• 18:13
  to really see which is happening.
• 18:15
  And it seems to me that the default of most people is to kind
• 18:19
  of be less powerful,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: more reactionary to the world,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: more anxious.
• 18:23
  I think that's why anxiety is such a big problem today around,
• 18:26
  you know,
• 18:27
  multiple nations.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a habit.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a motivation system.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a healthy motivation system to keep us surviving,
• 18:35
  but it's not a healthy motivation system for us to feel
• 18:37
  fulfilled or for us to feel
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: in control of our lives and feel ability to influence things.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we can start small by
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not blaming other things,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: not blaming the weather,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: not blaming our relatives,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: not blaming the boss,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: not blaming the company and taking more and more responsibility.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you asked me, like, how is this working for me?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: personally,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you in my marriage,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: there are times where I get really upset,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 19:13
  And I'll find myself blaming my wife and I'm like,
• 19:16
  oh,
• 19:16
  shh,
• 19:16
  you know,
• 19:17
  and then
• 19:19
  I'm not always conscious enough in the moment to stop it but
• 19:21
  like because the
• 19:22
  emotions I'm so justified feeling this right but after I'll be
• 19:25
  like wow like I have
• 19:28
  to own my reaction right like we have our triggers and it's not
• 19:34
  other people are
• 19:35
  not responsible for our emotional triggers and so if we blame
• 19:39
  them for our emotions
• 19:40
  we are giving away our power over our own selves which I think
• 19:44
  is so detrimental
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: and so hurtful to the other person.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so in my life,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: one of the things I've gotten in a habit of is,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'll try to stop myself if I'm starting noticing I'm starting to blame.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be like, no, I need to.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is not about me or her.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is about having a healthy relationship, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Focus on the goal rather than on right or wrong.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: if my emotions are too hot,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: then I just,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting in a habit of apologizing more.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Two powerful words.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 20:16
  Yeah like you know we just got into a fight a week ago and the
• 20:19
  next you know next
• 20:21
  morning I still think it was her fault but you know like but
• 20:25
  the next morning I was
• 20:26
  like yeah but I did not have to have the reaction I had because
• 20:30
  I was I did not
• 20:31
  need to get upset and you know I was so upset it kind of like
• 20:34
  ruined the next the
• 20:35
  rest of my night it's so silly right humans are so silly and
• 20:39
  but and I was like
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: that how I responded to her was not her fault at all that was totally my
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: my responsibility.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I apologize for that.
• 20:49
  This is very powerful because it shows that you have the
• 20:53
  ability to actually
• 20:54
  reflect on your actions and I think it was Dale Carnegie who
• 21:01
  once said that people
• 21:04
  who do most damage are the ones who don't reflect and repeat
• 21:08
  the same mistakes over
• 21:09
  and over again at least reflect what did I do wrong here and I
• 21:14
  find this very
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: interesting Chris because
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about, you know, don't blame, instead voice your needs.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: You could do that.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very healthy thing to do in a relationship.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking also at work, things are not working out for you.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a toxic workplace.
• 21:36
  Maybe you've tolerated some bad behavior from colleagues or
• 21:41
  from your boss.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: One way is to actually voice your needs.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Tell people what you actually want.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 21:51
  I think that people who get very skillful at communication,
• 21:56
  one thing that
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: What you find is that it's all about the other person.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's really focused on the audience.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to sell something.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to inspire somebody.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're really focused on the audience.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: What gets lost in that sometimes is ourselves.
• 22:11
  We get so good at communicating to the needs of other people
• 22:13
  and meeting their
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: needs in a way that's not necessarily disempowering.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're just effective at reading the audience.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: But then we forget, oh yeah, I still need to be in there.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not in there, you do yourself a disservice.
• 22:30
  I had one person I was coaching and she was very good at
• 22:34
  building networks and helping people.
• 22:36
  Like she's just a phenomenal star at this,
• 22:39
  but it wasn't yielding anything for her.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't meant to yield anything for her.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was, she was doing it because she's a good person, but
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: She's like,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: these are great opportunities for me to,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I could,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: I should,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm connecting people,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm just getting lost,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: in the,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: in the,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: in the noise.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she found that as she networked,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: if she started to share her own needs,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: not just listen to the other person's needs,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: like they started popping up with ideas and connecting her.
• 23:06
  And so it's this back and forth honoring yourself as you honor
• 23:11
  the other person.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: That is the maximum position of power.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not over giving.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at power as two fundamental expressions,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: one is serving others and two is asserting yourself.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So when we look at the conundrum of leadership,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 23:33
  is it better to be a dominant hyper-masculine leader versus a
• 23:38
  servant leadership
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: leader?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the answer is it's neither or it's both.
• 23:43
  It's really both because both have been successful and what
• 23:48
  makes them successful
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: are not mutually exclusive.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're just different ways of serving others and asserting yourself.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And your ability to balance that is what will make you successful.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: One example from the book that you read is Nelson Mandela.
• 24:04
  Here's a person who nobody in the world would say was not a
• 24:06
  servant leader.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody in the world, right?
• 24:10
  but if you look at what he did he was hyper goal focused like
• 24:14
  he when he he would
• 24:17
  not speak ill of he would he would say things that he knew
• 24:23
  would upset his allies
• 24:25
  if it was the truth and if it was consistent to his goals and
• 24:28
  I'll give you an
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: example there was a there's a time where
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was partnered with Israel and he was partnered with Libya, I think.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So two nations that are diametrically opposed back in the day.
• 24:43
  And neither side was happy that he was allied with the other
• 24:46
  for South Africa,
• 24:47
  right?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so when Libya said,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 24:51
  you got to stop working with Israel or we're not going to let
• 24:53
  you have offices.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, fine, close our offices.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when Israel said,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: you got to stop working with I don't understand how you can,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: work with Libya and all their human rights things.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, he's like, I'm not interested in in what you think of them.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested in their support for our goal of ending apartheid.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: He was just so direct.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: He did.
• 25:14
  so assertive to what he believed was the right thing for his
• 25:16
  people that he never
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: compromised his values.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So he was asserting his values, not his ego.
• 25:23
  He was asserting his values uncompromisingly,
• 25:27
  but those values then serve.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I talked to a woman who was on a city council in Texas and I asked her,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: She was this Asian mother, older Asian mother.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she said,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: when I was campaigning,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: neither the Democrats nor the Republicans,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: this is in the US,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Neither the Democrats or the Republicans were supporting me.
• 25:53
  So they were both,
• 25:54
  the two major political parties were putting candidates against
• 25:57
  her.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And she won.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And she won three times.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: She was on her third term when I was talking to her.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, dang, you have a lot of support.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me your motto?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me why you're so successful?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: She said, yeah, it's very easy.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: She said, I have this motto.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care if you like me.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here to serve you.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: We need her today in this world, right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: We need her.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 26:31
  So it's about a balance,
• 26:34
  asserting yourself as well,
• 26:36
  not just overgiving and oversharing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Chris,
• 26:42
  is personal power something you build or is it something you
• 26:50
  stop giving or stop
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: giving away?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a phenomenal question.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's both.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: the four horsemen of personal power that we talked about, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: There are different ways we can leak our power all the time.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we do it notice through our language.
• 27:10
  It underlies a mindset,
• 27:12
  which is really the heart of it,
• 27:13
  but there's a language that we speak.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if we can recognize the way we use our words,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: we start to take control of our own mindset.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we can plug those holes so that we're no longer diminishing our power.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are certainly things we can do to enhance our personal power.
• 27:31
  One of my favorite psychologists is a guy by the name of
• 27:33
  Nathaniel Brandon,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: who's considered the grandfather of the self-esteem movement.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: He lived in the middle of the 20th century.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was mainly his main time of success.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he probably passed away 10 or 15 years ago now,
• 27:46
  but he described self-esteem in a way that I would describe
• 27:50
  personal power as well.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: He said, your self-esteem is an unconscious
• 27:58
  Computer That Is Always Calculating Based On Your Behaviors
• 28:02
  Whether To Increase Or
• 28:03
  Decrease Your Self-Esteem And You Can't Get Around It If You
• 28:05
  Lie You Know You Lied
• 28:06
  And So Your Self-Esteem Will Actually Go Down Even If You Get
• 28:11
  Total Success In The
• 28:12
  External World So I Really Like That Because What He's Saying
• 28:17
  Is Self-Esteem Is
• 28:20
  Something You Control But It's Not In Your Direct Control It's
• 28:22
  Your Indirect
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Control The Way You Behave The Way You Speak
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: These things affect your self-esteem.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And personal power is the same thing.
• 28:32
  It's an experience that lives and is calculated through our
• 28:37
  unconscious mind.
• 28:38
  But through our consciousness,
• 28:40
  we can very much trigger it to be more or less powerful.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So even if somebody,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: even if they don't find out that you've lied,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: that's going to affect your self-esteem because you know that I lied.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And even if they don't find out,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: that's going to affect your self-esteem and your personal power.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Will it affect your personal power?
• 29:09
  Probably if you value honesty and it will certainly affect your
• 29:12
  self-esteem.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: The important takeaway is that your power is not outside of you.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just like your self-esteem.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Your power is not outside of you.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not whether you succeed or not.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's whether you try and whether you take responsibility for it.
• 29:32
  For example,
• 29:34
  they did this really cool study where they asked people to make
• 29:37
  it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to give you another angle of it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: about action.
• 29:40
  So this is responsibility we know,
• 29:42
  but action we haven't talked about much.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: They asked people to come in and they said,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: what's a big decision that you've been procrastinating on?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be like,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: take a job or leave a job or,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: start or get married or get a divorce,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: in a relationship.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like huge decisions.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's a big decision you're procrastinating on making?
• 29:59
  Everybody kind of knows what they should do,
• 30:00
  but,
• 30:01
  you know,
• 30:01
  it's not always pleasant or easy.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so, okay, and then they had him flip a coin.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: They said,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: if it turns out heads,
• 30:07
  you're going to promise yourself and us that you're going to do
• 30:10
  exactly what you're
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: just going to step out of here and you're just going to do it.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: No more hesitation.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: If it's tails, you can do whatever you want.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: So however many people did the study, right?
• 30:17
  They all flipped the coins and,
• 30:19
  you know,
• 30:19
  half of them got heads,
• 30:19
  half got tails.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: They left.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then the experimenters followed up with them later, six months later.
• 30:26
  And they asked him,
• 30:27
  well,
• 30:27
  did you,
• 30:28
  if you flipped heads,
• 30:29
  did you take action?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: the majority of people,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: it might've been 80%,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it was the act amount,
• 30:36
  but the majority of people who flipped heads actually did make
• 30:39
  the action and did
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: whatever they did.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the majority of tails actually were still procrastinating.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then they said they measured their happiness.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And by and large, everybody who had taken action was significant.
• 30:51
  Those people who took action were significantly more happy than
• 30:54
  those people who
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: did not take action.
• 30:57
  And that's not has nothing to do with whether they took the
• 31:00
  right action or not,
• 31:01
  right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows how often it was really the right decision to do something.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it was the it wasn't whether they did the right thing or not.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was the taking the action itself that created the sense of
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Happiness, right?
• 31:13
  It's because they were,
• 31:14
  my explanation is that they were tapped into their personal
• 31:17
  power.
• 31:18
  Personal power gives us optimism,
• 31:19
  gives us fulfillment,
• 31:20
  gives us happiness.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Tapping into not being their power,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: long-term chronic procrastination,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: these things,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: you're in your low power mindset,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: which is connected to anxiety and fear and these things.
• 31:30
  You see,
• 31:31
  so it's,
• 31:31
  I think so much,
• 31:32
  again,
• 31:33
  it's not about the win or lose,
• 31:34
  it's about the doing.
• 31:36
  It's not about the win or the lose,
• 31:37
  it's about the holding yourself responsible for it.
• 31:40
  These are where you get your sense of personal power and this
• 31:42
  is where people get
• 31:43
  their sense of trust and respect from you So basically action
• 31:50
  leads to empowerment
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Nike slogan is the best slogan in the world Just do it Just do it Do it
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: if you know you should take action and you don't take action,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: and I've been myself there in that position,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: it could be an old relationship,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: it could be not leaving a job,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: it could be not ending a friendship and so forth.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: When you're just still in it,
• 32:19
  I remember just,
• 32:20
  you know,
• 32:22
  my sense of self-respect,
• 32:25
  I kind of lost it at times.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: when you know you should leave something,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: you should move or you should start over and you're not doing it.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know what is right for you, but you're still stuck voluntarily.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: That affects self-esteem and self-respect.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this is important.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Action leads to empowerment.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, can you think of a specific example of why you didn't take action?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was worried about change.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was worried about change.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: For example, starting this podcast, I talked about it for years.
• 33:02
  And my son told me one day,
• 33:05
  he said,
• 33:06
  Dad,
• 33:06
  I would like to become a basketball player.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, oh, that's great.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: He said, this is my dream.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm going to do.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'll invest in you.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be there for you.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: But just promise me one thing.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: He said, what is it?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you start and you never give up.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a few weeks later, I was researching Mike for this podcast.
• 33:31
  And he told me,
• 33:33
  he said,
• 33:34
  dad,
• 33:34
  you've been talking about the podcast for a long time.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: I said, well, I know I'll probably start it one day.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: He said, well, you told me to start and to never give up.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Smart son.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he's just afraid of change.
• 33:51
  I was afraid that,
• 33:52
  you know,
• 33:52
  what if I take action and it doesn't work out?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: I took action and here we are.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's a certain uncertainty to success or failure, right?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you try something new.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was just talking,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: to my students a few weeks ago,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: business students,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: undergraduate business students.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: How many of them have imposter syndrome?
• 34:22
  How many of them have felt like they'd been in a situation
• 34:24
  where they didn't belong,
• 34:25
  right?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't earn it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Somehow they just, they got in, but they don't deserve it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And every hand in the room went up.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: I always have them look around to see that they're not alone.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: They see everybody else's hand.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then I share with them,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: one of the challenges with imposter syndrome is that you're in a,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: you're in a high level of uncertainty.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: You have essentially stretched your boundaries so far that you're like,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: how did I end up here?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And usually it's a good thing.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise it wouldn't, you wouldn't be feeling like an imposter.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you're in this new place and you have all this
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uncertainty.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Am I qualified?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do I belong?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: You don't really know the lay of the land because everything's new.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so you tend to do a few things.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Humans tend to do a few things when they feel imposter syndrome.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: One is they tend to look outside for external validation.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Very frightening, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: When you have uncertainty,
• 35:19
  you start to just ask other people and you're kind of giving
• 35:21
  away your power.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can see that, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because suddenly you're depending on others to make you feel welcome.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And another way that's really tragic
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: is either they don't try this in your case and don't try or,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: or,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:34
  they're that uncertain imposter syndrome and they're at that
• 35:37
  place of uncertainty.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they sabotage themselves.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're in a, they're in a relationship that like, I can't imagine.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could never believe I was at this person and it's perfect.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then they do something to end like to destroy the relationship.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: They sleep with somebody.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe I did that.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like later on, they just can't understand it.
• 35:53
  Or they quit a job that they were immensely qualified for,
• 35:56
  but just felt so much anxiety.
• 35:59
  and I mentioned Nathaniel Brandon earlier about self-esteem and
• 36:01
  he had another quote.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: I really like his research.
• 36:05
  He had another quote which he said something about the idea
• 36:11
  that people who are
• 36:12
  really uncomfortable with uncertainty will sabotage themselves
• 36:15
  in order to regain
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: the comfort they had playing small.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think one of the greatest
• 36:24
  Indicators of your power is your ability to stand in the face
• 36:28
  of uncertainty and not flinch.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you do that?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one is just straight up grit and tolerance.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: that's not a permanent solution,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: but it's something that definitely is a powerful thing to do.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just things will always work themselves out.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't sabotage it.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But number two is
• 36:55
  what you did which is you really had a clean goal that you were
• 36:58
  working towards and
• 36:59
  you didn't know whether success or failure was going to be the
• 37:03
  outcome but that was
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: irrelevant to pursuing the goal
• 37:08
  And when we think about Back to personal power Personal power
• 37:12
  Differentiates high
• 37:13
  power From low power High power people Focus on their own goals
• 37:17
  Low power people
• 37:18
  Focus on the approval Of others And so If we think We will be
• 37:22
  paralyzed In low
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: power Right?
• 37:25
  Non-action We will be paralyzed If we're always concerned With
• 37:28
  whether other people
• 37:29
  Will approve Or like What we're doing Hmm But if we're just
• 37:33
  like You know This is a
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: goal Who knows What's going to happen Hmm
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's, that's power.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you feel anxiety in the process, it's powerful.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're not reacting to anxiety.
• 37:48
  Yeah,
• 37:48
  I mean,
• 37:48
  anxiety,
• 37:49
  sometimes it's good because,
• 37:52
  so I speak on trust and bias.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I started off many years ago,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would be on the stage and I was,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I was more focused on myself,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: how I looked on the stage.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was nervous.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was up in my head.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that anxiety before I entered the stage made me actually focused.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: I prepared probably too much.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was up in my head, yes, but I prepared a lot.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Had I not prepared, I'd probably not have made it.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that anxiety served me,
• 38:29
  but it didn't stop me from going on the stage and falling on my
• 38:33
  face over and over
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: and over again.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't perfect in the beginning, and I know that
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: In the beginning,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: when I was on the stage,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think the audience could feel that I was very anxious and very nervous.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And as an audience member,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: you're a professor,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: as an audience member,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: emotions are kind of contagious.
• 38:57
  If you lose the audience It's not the audience fault It's your
• 39:01
  fault And in the
• 39:03
  beginning I would basically lose the audience Because my
• 39:07
  intention was not right I
• 39:09
  was there for myself And probably because I was too anxious And
• 39:12
  I was up in my head
• 39:13
  But when that shifted When it was more about the audience What
• 39:16
  can I do for them
• 39:19
  I'm here for my audience This is my message This is my
• 39:22
  intention Then things
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: changed But
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: For things to change, I had to go through that process.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: You hit on two great points.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think number one is notice that when we're self-focused,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: we're actually,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: we are really kind of focused on approval,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: improving ourselves,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then when we're other focused,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: we are generally more goal oriented,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: as you said,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: more focused on the audience.
• 39:49
  And because we are expanding our boundaries and stepping into
• 39:52
  something new,
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: there is going to be natural anxiety to that.
• 39:56
  I can only think of one person in probably the history of
• 39:58
  mankind that has not had anxiety.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Probably the Buddha.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: He spent his whole lifetime getting rid of anxiety and then he succeeded.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yay!
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was his life work was to get rid of it.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: The rest of us,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: poor souls,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: we have anxiety,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: but what differentiates the great ones from the powerful people from the
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: non-powerful people is the powerful people don't react to their anxiety.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: The powerful people react to their anxiety.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: What about tension?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because looking back at my career,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I had a meeting with a client one time and they asked me,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: how much do you charge?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I told them the amount and the client was just looking at me.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was just a pause, a silence.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I was so uncomfortable with that tension.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: I filled that silence with, oh, well, we can negotiate.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can probably make a better deal for you.
• 40:56
  And I've noticed that some powerful people,
• 40:59
  they're very comfortable with that tension.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: It might be uncomfortable, but they don't avoid tension.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: They say in it and they deal with tension.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: How is that connected to personal power?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're absolutely right.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're not reacting to their emotions.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're just focused on the goal.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've spoken my piece.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to wait here and see what the response is.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: if you,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: undercut myself,
• 41:25
  which I think every person can relate to doing at some point
• 41:27
  who's in any sort of
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: sales,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: because it's again,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: did I do something wrong?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's again, it's approval seeking.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: This could, might not work.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Your goal can give you a,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: whereas when you're focused on a goal,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to be focused on maybe they're,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to hear what they have to say.
• 41:49
  You're going to want to know before you renegotiate,
• 41:50
  you know,
• 41:50
  before you take next steps.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: What happens internally, Chris, when we feel powerless?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: When we feel powerless,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: a part of our brain called the behavioral inhibition system activates,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: and it is responsible for us seeking protection and safety.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we will avoid risk.
• 42:24
  And we will feel that's why anxiety is one of the primary
• 42:28
  emotions of this,
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: this motivational system,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: because it's to keep us away from risk.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Usually the motto of a low power person is don't rock the boat,
• 42:38
  meaning I don't want to do something that's going to cause
• 42:39
  anybody else to
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: potentially think ill of me because we're feeling powerless.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: We feel other people have power in the world, not us.
• 42:47
  And so if other people have the power in the world,
• 42:49
  we need to win their evaluation.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're going to feel anxious,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to be hypersensitive to what other people think of us,
• 42:56
  and we're going to try to get them to like us or to approve of
• 42:58
  us in some way so
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: that we don't feel threatened by them.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's what happens when we feel powerless.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So basically we don't take risks.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: We protect ourselves and we don't rock the boat.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm not a, you know, I think one of the challenges, there was
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: a situation that happened in the U.S.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: last year where three university presidents went in front of Congress,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: the United States Congress.
• 43:27
  The president of Harvard,
• 43:29
  I can't remember the other two universities,
• 43:30
  but they
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Did not perform well, and so they were really ravaged in the media.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And while it was fascinating about why did they perform well,
• 43:41
  the topic of the conversation was the whole issue going on in
• 43:47
  the Middle East
• 43:49
  between Israel and Palestine and sort of what it's creating on
• 43:53
  campus of both
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: sides.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: talking down to each other, different people from different groups.
• 44:01
  And so the university presidents in front of the United States
• 44:05
  Congress were very
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: risk,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: anti-risk,
• 44:07
  meaning they were not giving any strong opinions about what
• 44:10
  they should do.
• 44:10
  They were hedging their words,
• 44:13
  saying,
• 44:13
  well,
• 44:13
  if this happens,
• 44:14
  we might do this.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: We would look into it.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: No real value statements, no real action statements.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they were vilified and crucified in the news.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: and they all had to,
• 44:26
  I think they all ended up getting fired or they all were forced
• 44:29
  to resign,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: all three of them.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: What was fascinating was two of those three were coached by a law firm
• 44:37
  And when you think about law firms and lawyers,
• 44:40
  lawyers are very risk adverse,
• 44:41
  right?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of you have a contract.
• 44:42
  If you ever put together a contract in business,
• 44:44
  it's all about,
• 44:45
  you know,
• 44:46
  reducing risk.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I make this joke not to make fun of lawyers or anything,
• 44:52
  but just lawyers don't make great leaders because their job is
• 44:57
  to avoid risk.
• 44:59
  And even finance People sometimes have this challenge In the
• 45:03
  business I work with
• 45:04
  In the clients I work with Where they're too focused on the
• 45:06
  risks And so they don't
• 45:07
  lead effectively But leadership Leadership when you really It's
• 45:13
  from the behavioral
• 45:13
  approach system So it's a different motivational mechanism The
• 45:15
  brain It's one that
• 45:16
  moves towards goals And seeks reward And that's why it's so
• 45:21
  positive That's why
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: it's so optimistic Because it's very positive forward looking
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And when we act from a place of high power,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: our motto is it's better to ask forgiveness than permission,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: meaning just do it,
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: just do it.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll figure, we'll figure out the other stuff later.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of challenge with risk of,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's healthy in a job where you're a finance person or a lawyer,
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: you have to pay attention to risk.
• 45:46
  It's,
• 45:47
  it's,
• 45:47
  it's a demand of the,
• 45:49
  of the profession and it cannot be your only focus.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: I could share infinite stories, but there's this one story, Tom Cruise.
• 46:03
  Tom Cruise was sharing the story with another actor and the
• 46:06
  other actor was relaying it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Who is the guy who was in Good Will Hunting?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember the main actor?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: How about the talented Mr. Ripley?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Same guy?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, these are old movies.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Look at my gray hair.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Other people who know these movies will know who I'm talking about.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: But that actor was talking about Tom Cruise.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's like,
• 46:28
  I was talking to Tom Cruise and Tom Cruise was saying he wanted
• 46:30
  to do this stunt
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: that was really,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: really not safe.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So Tom Cruise was telling the story to him.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, oh, the safety guy said we couldn't do it.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I fired the safety guy and got another safety guy and then we did it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Safety Guy is all about anti-risk.
• 46:43
  But look at what happens if you're all about anti-risk when
• 46:45
  you're trying to do
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: something great,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: like an organization,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: you're trying to push forward.
• 46:50
  Got to be more than just the risk because the risk is in
• 46:52
  service to a goal.
• 46:54
  And so you got to always remember there's that bigger goal and
• 46:56
  that's where your power is.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: So let the goal be dominant over the risk.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: This ties back to what you've been talking about today,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: be goal oriented,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: work towards your goals,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: and part of that is dealing with risk as well,
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: not avoiding risk.
• 47:18
  Chris,
• 47:19
  we've talked about a lot of things here,
• 47:22
  but one thing I think about is authenticity.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of things we can do to enhance our power,
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: our charisma, our confidence, and so forth.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: But what about authenticity?
• 47:39
  You can do some of the things we talk about,
• 47:43
  but it might still come off as inauthentic.
• 47:48
  How can we learn these skills and develop these skills and
• 47:51
  practice without losing authenticity?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Authenticity is foundational to personal power.
• 48:00
  They did research out of UC Berkeley where they found that
• 48:02
  those who feel more
• 48:03
  powerful are more authentic and those who are seen as more
• 48:06
  authentic are perceived
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: to be more powerful by others.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: If we think about ultimately when we're inauthentic,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: our focus is being liked or approved of by other people.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Why else would we be inauthentic?
• 48:19
  Whereas when we're authentic,
• 48:20
  we're really self-expression,
• 48:22
  which is focused on our own goals.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 48:27
  Jeffery Pfeffer is this guy who studies,
• 48:28
  he's written a lot of books and he's at Stanford.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: So his whole thing is don't be authentic.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like authenticity is,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: he doesn't say it's authenticity for losers,
• 48:35
  but he's basically saying it doesn't necessarily serve your
• 48:37
  highest good when
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: you're seeking power within an organization.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this big conundrum, right?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've got research that says authenticity is good.
• 48:43
  And on the other side,
• 48:43
  you got these experts who are saying authenticity is a risk.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that a lot of the
• 48:48
  I think a lot of the conflict around authenticity is that there
• 48:53
  is no clear
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: definition of what authenticity is.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: I see authenticity as a self-expression of our own values and goals.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's communication or behavior in pursuit of our own values and goals.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the contrast to that is somebody who,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: let's say that you're somebody who's low power,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: who's very distracted by other people's opinions,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: always thinking,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: does this person like me?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Does that person like me?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Those would not necessarily be their own goals.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: They would just be seeking approval, which is not a high power goal.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: It is the definition of a low power behavior.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: So why am I bringing all this up?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: People confuse authenticity with transparency.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Transparency is what you're feeling right now in the moment.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let me just share my unfiltered stuff, right?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not authenticity.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 49:51
  you can have a lot of thoughts that are not who you are or
• 49:55
  represent your values or
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: goals,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: like errant,
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: impulsive thoughts.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is that who you are?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say that's who you authentically are, you know?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be transparent.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's unnecessary and even irrelevant in a lot of contexts.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Be authentic.
• 50:16
  Authentic means look at what goal of yours is best served in
• 50:20
  the situation you're
• 50:21
  in and how can you best serve that goal through your behavior
• 50:24
  and communication.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you need to say that again.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds good.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Authenticity is
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at the situation you're in and determining what is the best,
• 50:39
  your most important goal for that situation and how can you
• 50:42
  best pursue that goal
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: through your behavior and communication in that situation.
• 50:46
  Then you are being authentic and true to who you are,
• 50:48
  which is your values and goals.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you an example to make it real.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say that you're at a sales meeting with some client and
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, boy, this guy's a real jerk, right?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you're just like,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: if you misunderstood authenticity as transparency,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: you'd just be like,
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be authentic.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you're being a jerk.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like this at all.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like you.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: You need to go shove it.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can we close the deal?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Done.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: You just like capsized the whole thing.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you can see, but you're like, but those are what I really feel, Chris.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't I be authentic?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't I express that?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's obvious from any kind of like common sense that you shouldn't.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I would argue that by not expressing it, you're being more authentic.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: And here's why.
• 51:27
  Because the whole reason you're in that sales meeting is to
• 51:29
  earn your income,
• 51:30
  your profession.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the whole reason you're doing that is take care of your kids,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: your wife,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: to own a house,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: like huge important goals that are
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: is infinitely more important than your feelings in that moment, you see?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you say,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to do that,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to say that stuff,
• 51:45
  I'm going to close this deal and I'm going to use the
• 51:47
  communication behaviors
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: necessary to close this deal in order for that bigger goal,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: you are being 100% authentic to you,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 51:57
  Where that would be untrue is only if it's doing for not
• 52:01
  something like a real value.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're just
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're just like, I want ego and I want money.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all about me,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: me,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: me,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: me,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: me,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: which is actually if you really dig deep,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: it often comes from insecurity and can be like,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:13
  ultimately you're trying to seek approval at some level by
• 52:15
  being very rich or
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: whatever.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: so you have to be aware that there are,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: some,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: some low power behaviors masquerade as goals,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: but it's very,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: but that would not be the same thing as being authentic.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably also connected to self-esteem.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, yeah, I probably gave too much different details there.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the main point is you can see that coming back to self-esteem,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: because self-esteem seems to be something we're talking about today,
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 52:47
  Nathaniel Brown,
• 52:48
  another thing he said,
• 52:49
  I tell you,
• 52:49
  my favorite psychologist,
• 52:50
  right?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I know all this stuff.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing he said was
• 52:56
  You are in integrity with yourself when you are pursuing your
• 52:59
  highest goal,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: even if you're sacrificing a lower value to do it,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: your highest value.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: if you you never want to sacrifice your values,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: but if you have to sacrifice a value,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: you always sacrifice the value that means less of the two.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:12
  Let's say you have to be honest or you have to protect a human
• 53:16
  being from getting murdered.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to lie.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to lie all day long to protect that life.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's and that he would say is full integrity.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because integrity is not just being in accordance with your goals,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: it's being in accordance with the hierarchy of your goals as well.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the higher value.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so then that's authentic.
• 53:31
  You would not be authentic if you were honest in that moment
• 53:35
  because you are
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: betraying your highest value.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so the same thing is true with authenticity at any moment.
• 53:44
  Is it worth it to you to tell this guy off and then you don't
• 53:48
  feed your son,
• 53:49
  you get fired?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, not any day of the week is that appropriate.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably being stupid.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is awesome.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, have you seen people misuse what you teach?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see how people can misuse it if they truly understand it.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen people play fun games.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like they learn,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: they take a workshop,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: and then,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: executive MBA students and they go home to their spouse and they're like,
• 54:24
  They play this power dynamic who's got the more power And
• 54:27
  they're having fun with
• 54:27
  that Trying to see But anytime it's competitive Anything that's
• 54:33
  comparative It is
• 54:35
  no longer personal power It's external And so it starts to be
• 54:39
  something different I
• 54:43
  think one of the beautiful things About personal power Is that
• 54:46
  many of the
• 54:46
  behaviors that correlate To your own personal power Correlate
• 54:49
  to you empowering
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: others
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this sort of synergy that I think is built into the mind,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: which is just based on evolution,
• 54:57
  that it makes sense that tribes that were successful had the
• 55:02
  most empowered
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: members.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't have one member on top and everybody else was disempowered.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was the whole team.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then we see that it's just very, very clear.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: For example,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: people who are empowered hold themselves accountable,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: but you know what else they do?
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: They hold other people accountable.
• 55:17
  So they're the leaders who don't have,
• 55:18
  they're not afraid of holding others accountable.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when they hold others accountable,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's uncomfortable for that other person,
• 55:24
  but that other person then is empowered because that other
• 55:26
  person is not forced to
• 55:27
  face the fact that they actually have power over the situation
• 55:30
  and could do
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: something rather than blame it away.
• 55:32
  And so it's an uncomfortable,
• 55:33
  but it's a real way of empowering other people.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: You see that?
• 55:36
  And that's almost all the things about empowerment really
• 55:40
  follow that model So what
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: if,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: someone feels powerful internally
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Personal Power, but they keep getting dismissed externally.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: What should they do?
• 56:13
  I would say that's unlikely because the more you convey
• 56:16
  personal power through your
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: communication,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: the more you're noticed and the more people take heed of you.
• 56:21
  So it's almost like a person with the issue you're saying about
• 56:25
  not being noticed
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: or being dismissed,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: what they need to do
• 56:29
  is to increase their personal power and then they will be seen
• 56:33
  the other the
• 56:34
  opposite of what you said is actually the more common trait in
• 56:37
  society where we
• 56:38
  have people who have very low personal power but have extensive
• 56:42
  external power and
• 56:43
  so and there's research on this and what happens is if you have
• 56:47
  a lot of external
• 56:48
  power but you have low internal power these are the people who
• 56:53
  tend to be um
• 56:56
  the people we dislike most like the dominators the people who
• 57:02
  are really nasty with
• 57:04
  their power there was you know one case of a story I heard
• 57:11
  where an executive at a
• 57:13
  large energy company he was just sitting and they were having a
• 57:16
  meeting a team
• 57:16
  meeting and he just looked at one of the junior guys he's like
• 57:18
  you know just out of
• 57:19
  the blue he said you know I could just fire you right now if I
• 57:21
  wanted to right and
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: the whole room like did a double take like what
• 57:26
  And the more observant people Everybody in that room was
• 57:29
  shocked But the more
• 57:30
  observant people was like That guy must be really insecure Why
• 57:33
  would anybody ever
• 57:34
  say that to a junior person So there's I think that's the real
• 57:39
  struggle Is that
• 57:39
  those people with power Are disempowered on the inside You
• 57:45
  don't have to be loud
• 57:46
  And you don't have to be rude But I feel that Looking at our
• 57:52
  leaders in the world
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: today It seems that
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: We elect our leaders,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: and some of our leaders are loud,
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: they thump their chest,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: and they might tell you exactly what they're thinking,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: even if they hurt other people.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not whether they hurt somebody or not.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Personal power is not correlated to the personality trait of affability.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Agreeableness, it's called.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not whether you're,
• 58:26
  it's not how nice or mean you are that correlates to personal
• 58:28
  power has no
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: correlation.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you can be a total jerk or you can be a real, real softy.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: You still have personal power.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: My take is a little bit wider.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: First off,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: populist leaders who gain a lot of attention today,
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: they do often speak very powerfully within crowds.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in a lot of cases,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: this is totally off topic,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: but populism is often correlated to having constituency that's very,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: feels very disempowered.
• 58:59
  And so they're looking for a leader with just raw power in
• 59:03
  order to,
• 59:04
  to feel like they're heard.
• 59:06
  And so there's disempowered people finding somebody who just
• 59:09
  has a lot of external
• 59:10
  power and who can command others so that they can feel like
• 59:13
  their needs are met
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: through this person.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it has nothing to do with personal power.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: It may or may not,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: but what's important is,
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 59:26
  what I can see from my angle is that those people who maybe
• 59:30
  meet this criteria that
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: you're thinking about,
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: they do have the right words.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: They do have the right words of their communication,
• 59:39
  whether they actually have the mindset to back those words or
• 59:41
  whether it's just a
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: strategy,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: I promised myself no politics today.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something I should have asked you that you're thinking,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ibrahim should have asked me about this?
• 1:00:02
  Coming back to something we talked at the very beginning and
• 1:00:05
  something I see in so
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: many of my students and my clients,
• 1:00:11
  the
• 1:00:11
  Biggest change that you can make into stepping from where you
• 1:00:17
  are in your personal
• 1:00:17
  power today to a higher level is to let go of the validation
• 1:00:22
  seeking and to really
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: focus on the goal.
• 1:00:26
  Whether that's at work to build relationships with your
• 1:00:29
  colleagues or your higher
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: level ups,
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's in your relationship,
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's with your friends or a club or a group or a team.
• 1:00:40
  Taking the plunge of stepping away saying I'm no longer going
• 1:00:43
  to focus on what
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: other people think of me.
• 1:00:45
  I'm just going to focus on the goals that I have or that I
• 1:00:49
  share with these people
• 1:00:51
  and do my best efforts to communicate my service towards those
• 1:00:55
  goals is going to be
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: not just a game changer for you in that context,
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: that situation,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: but it would be a life changer in your experience.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: You'll be plugging into yourself.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so as the city councilwoman said,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to be of service to the world,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: make your motto.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: My goal is not, I'm not here to serve.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not here to be liked by you.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here to serve you.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not here to be liked.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here to serve.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody will like you as a consequence of that.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're not seeking validation.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, where can people find you?
• 1:01:39
  you can go to my website speakvalue.com speakvalue.com is just
• 1:01:43
  how that sounds but
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: For those of you who are interested in this work,
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: definitely grab my book,
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: The Science of Personal Power.
• 1:01:52
  I spent several years writing it and just summarizing all of
• 1:01:56
  the research I could
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: find in psychology.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is a comprehensive analysis of status and personal power.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the best book for really helping you.
• 1:02:07
  I've got a lot of exercise in there that you can use to
• 1:02:10
  strengthen your own power
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: in the process.
• 1:02:13
  It's not meant just to give you new skills It's meant to change
• 1:02:15
  you To feel more
• 1:02:16
  confident in life The Science of Personal Power Get yourself a
• 1:02:21
  copy It's a great
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: book Chris,
• 1:02:25
  I always have this last question That I ask my guests And if
• 1:02:30
  you could give us Only
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: one piece of advice Only one advice For a better,
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: more meaningful life What would it be?
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Know your values
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Chris, know your values.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for what you do.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: We really need it.
• 1:02:49
  And I've read your book and what really struck me is when you
• 1:02:56
  said that powerful
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: people are meaning makers.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: Powerful people are meaning makers.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning makers.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the advice you just gave us today are phenomenal.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Please come back again.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: It would be nice to have you back here.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real pleasure.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate these questions.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Chris.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: share it with someone you care about,
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: a friend,
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ibrahim.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.