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Retail is alive and well - for how long? · Data Talks

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome again to the new edition of Data Talks.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Data Talks brings leading voices on data to the show, to the world, and today we have Henry Amor, who's a legendary CEO of the National Association of Convenience Stores, a veteran in retail.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll hear a lot more, and somebody who has spent all his lives working and hands-on, not just analytically and having a PhD, but hands-on working.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Henry, welcome to the show.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Wolfgang, it's a delight to be with you.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Henry also now is in a new phase in life.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk a little bit about this in a minute.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Henry has now also become a senior advisor to McKinsey and to World Data Lab.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're particularly proud of that new phase of Henry while he still uh has a leading role in the in Knacks, as the experts know.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Henry, we'll start a bit at the beginning.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as mentioned, you you have learned retail from the ground up.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um you were not just only a shop owner, but I think you worked in the gas station of your family.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a bit how it all started.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my father owned a chain of tire stores and gas stations and petroleum transportation in the United States.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so growing up from a very early age, I uh worked in tire stores changing tires, worked in gas stations back and forth with self-serve pumping gas.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and my father really believed that that work was very important, that um no matter what family you came from, it was important really to kind of get your fingernails dirty, you know, to understand actually how the world worked.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: My father was also a huge believer in education.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And back uh in the the early 60s, and during the 60s, when I was starting to go through school and then in university, he he always believed it was far more important to train your brain than to actually get work experience because he said the world was changing so quickly.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this was in the 60s, that whatever you learned in a job would be out of date quickly.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the most important thing was to train your brain how to think.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went on, I went through Stanford as an undergraduate in three years, and then went to London School of Economics for a master's degree and back to Stanford for a PhD.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: But throughout that whole process, both both in growing up working and in jobs, and and I was blessed to have wonderful teachers, both in primary school, at high school, and in university, graduate school, that really instilled in me this sense of curiosity and discovery.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have always been very much focused and very much uh desirous of understanding how things work, why things work the way they do.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just a brief background, Wolfgang, on how my mind works and why it works that way.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Henry, for that context.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's it's so many life lessons as well that you, as you just outlined.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you went then back into retail too in the West Coast, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And right.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I started my own uh um community store company.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I had worked in my father's various companies, and as sometimes happens in fine family companies, he and I didn't see eye to eye on strategy nor uh a little bit in compensation either.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I realized that was my problem, not his.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I left our family's companies and I went and went to work for Standard Oil of Ohio at the time, was was owned 53% by BP, worked there for three years, and then had an opportunity to start my own um chain of convenience stores.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: I started with three stores and over 22 years, built that up to uh 60 corporate stores, and then I managed uh a group of uh almost 40 stores for shell on top of that.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I had a couple um truck stops on the West Coast and a food service um division that I had started and became during that time Subway's largest franchisee on the West Coast with 18 stores.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So very much uh, while I have a on paper a great academic um background, um, I'm really a retailer by DNA.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um Henry, maybe we can just zoom into one or two things on what you just said and how the industry is is shifting and has shifted during your lifetime and your hands-on experience.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, one of the things I remember and I find quite fascinating, and it comes up also in many of the big NACs events, which have a lot of you know gas station types, but then uh also realizing that you make more money in the gas station, not with the gas, but with the other services around.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a bit how you experienced that shift and how it shaped your businesses.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um while I was working for my father, he um took over a chain of gas stations that were pure gas stations in Central California.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think there were, I don't know, 15 or 20 of them, and it was in um really 1970, early 70s, and and he said, hey, we have these service bays.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: We don't we don't service cars anymore.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you convert these to convenience stores?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent quite a bit of time.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was fortunate to meet and engage with some of the founders of AMPM on the West Coast, um, who had just been starting this transition on the West Coast to convenience with gas.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, on the East Coast of the United States, it was really the small convenience or dairy stores that then went into gasoline.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was the opposite on the the West Coast.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it was this synergy of, I think, towards mobility of uh what what do people need and when do they need it?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this year in the States or next year will be the the hundredth anniversary of the convenience store industry.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was Uncle Johnny or something back in uh uh Southland days that that decided to sell uh ice off of in a gas station.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the beginning of it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it was really this convergence of consumer needs and path and mobility that took place.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that was interesting about the growth of the clean store industry in the states was um you mentioned NAX, the organization I was chairman or CEO of for 20 years.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is now 61 years old.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And back in 1961, 13 retailers got together to form this organization to represent these new small stores.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the history behind that was after World War II, suddenly suburbs started being built, right?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And as the suburbs were being built, there wasn't enough population density.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Something that the World Data Lab um knows better than anybody else because of the deep, deep data sets that you have.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: But this population density in the suburbs didn't exist.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: The grocery stores, the supermarkets were in the center city, and yet people in the suburbs wanted to have some shopping ability.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so quickly, these little stores that came to be known as convenience stores formed.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: So our industry has always been one of uh responding to change, demographic changes, technological changes.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's as I said earlier, for me it's always been fascinating, both as a retailer and then as as someone who has run the global organization for our industry of discovery, what's around the corner, what's coming next?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Super cool, Henry.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll touch on this in a minute and we'll work on that together.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: One question I still am curious about uh on your relation with your father, did you then ever compete with him?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or or then you reunited?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: What what how did that story end?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, when when uh the son leaves and forms his his own company, um there there was friction for a while.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm happy to say that, you know, quite a few years later, as he was transitioning out, getting older of his business, we we had probably the closest relationship we've ever had.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually ended up buying um a truck stop in California and a couple locations from him to facilitate his uh exit from the industry.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, fast.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I hope, Henry, at some point you'll write this up in uh in your own book when you have the time.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um fast forward and talking about how the industry is changing and adapting.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we recently had a joint webinar when we also highlighted that retail is still live and strong.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's especially strong also in emerging markets, which play a bigger role there.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: What would be your characterization of the industry today?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Of retail in general, I think what we've seen is on on one huge driver that's causing change is not absolutely technology.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And in technology that has enabled e-commerce to take place.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: E-commerce is you know pushed, depending on what country, what region you're in, you know, pushing 20% of total retail as e-commerce.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: That that requires not only um tech platforms for the consumer to order on, but it requires very sophisticated um logistical systems to enable that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So technology has changed things quite a bit.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I think we are seeing a because of that technology, because now we have a generation, almost two generations now, that are digital natives that have grown up in this digital world.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we see more of a divide in perspectives, in wants, needs, behaviors between a younger generation and an older generation.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: In the past, it looked much much more of a smoother transition.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Today I think it's very different.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think retail is changing a great deal, and it's being it is I you know, one can say it's been forced to change.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the successful companies are leading that change.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's being driven by technology and by very different um consumer preferences.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: However, um, retail sales, I think in our webinar from uh a couple weeks ago, you you outlined retail sales are forecasted to grow by trillions of dollars over the next few decades.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: So retail is is alive and well.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just gonna, it is different today, and it's gonna be different in the future.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Henry, at the NAX events, and some of them I was part of and was also fortunate to speak, you're also having this fantastic gala event.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think you also just back from Las Vegas, right?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: From a from a mega event there.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a bit of uh imagine your your children or your friends' children would now start a retail chain or enter the industry.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things you would advise them and what are the ingredients of success of uh of a strong retail player today?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, number one in retail, and it has been this way for a hundred years, is you have to know your consumer, right?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to know that your consumer, consumer segments today are much more distinguishable from each other than in the past.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're going to change.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: They are in a rapid um development.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would say consumers also, their attention spans are getting shorter and shorter.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the consequence or the implication of that is that you have to change and you have to innovate and and offer something new and exciting and different every day.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my advice to a young person who's interested in going into retail, it is this how do you delight people, your same customer, differently, you know, week after week, month after month.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is, I think you've probably heard of Will Rogers, very famous cowboy philosopher, and so forth.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Will Rogers once said, even if you're on the right track, you're gonna get run over if you stay there long enough.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the implication of that is you got to change.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what works for you today will not work in the future.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that, and as I said earlier, I think if you're in retail and you want to be successful, it is all about discovery.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is all about trying to figure out what what customers you want, and you may not want all of them.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I and I think that's super important going forward is brand differentiation and and what makes you different.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: But we've got to change much more rapidly than we ever had in the past.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love that quote on run over if you stay tomorrow on the right track.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I never than that way, and that actually makes it quite interesting, as you say, as the world is also differentiating.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think as we highlighted in the webinar, um, retail is changing on the online versus offline.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: You highlighted that, but also it changes with premium versus mass market, where the mass market will be particularly strong and remain strong in emerging markets.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You traveled the world, Henry, you'll go soon to Mexico.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are some of the striking examples of emerging markets innovations or things that struck you the last year or two when you traveled the world?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, Wolfgang, I think you and I have talked about this in the past.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a I'm a real believer that you need to distinguish between a snapshot of what you're seeing and the movie that you're seeing, right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and life is really the movie, and sometimes we get caught in seeing this new picture of something, and and we we think it's static, right?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it will remain that way, but it's the movie.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the most interesting um visits that I've had in the last year on my way to the next convenience summit Asia in Shanghai, I stopped off in in Vietnam for a week, and I spent a week there visiting the leading retailers, manufacturers in Vietnam.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: What an amazing country, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the growth rates there are extraordinary, the size of the country, the population is huge.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the movie that I saw was this almost daily transition between a country and society characterized by traditional retail, meaning retail on the street, buying things on the street, literally, in carts and so forth, to modern retail, which is retail in stores, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a continuum, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't, that transition doesn't happen overnight.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see this change taking place from still retail on the street, but who's still buying that?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it tends to be an older consumer.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then here are new stores, but they can't feel too different than the street.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: They, they, you know, and and this is this is what I would call proximity retail.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: They're really buying stuff to take home.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so Winmark, who's the leading retailer there, um modern retailer, they're the ones that are guiding this path to modern retail.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if you go in their stores, it just looks like an upscale version of what was on the street, better organized and so forth.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then you take one look further down the block, and here's modern convenience, primarily the international convenience players like 7-Eleven and Circle K and Family Mark.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And their offer is a convenience, immediate consumption offer.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you look at the age demographics and income demographics along that, well, I kind of think of it as an S curve, it's fascinating to see that development.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think most of the developing world is in that movie right now, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: We see in Mexico, um, NAX's largest retail member is OXO, 24, probably today, 25,000 stores in Mexico.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: They historically have been a proximity retailer.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And as I think I described in the webinar a little bit, um, as urbanization has taken place, population densities increase, household sizes, the number of people in a household going down, multiple incomes in the household has all driven consumers to shop more frequently with smaller baskets.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they want things closer to home.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in the developed world, that's exactly what's feeding kind of uh the transition to modern retail there.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, the other thing I think in the as you pointed out in the webinar, the huge growth in retail is gonna come from the developing world.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: The developed world, we uh I think your forecast, I completely agree with them, it's gonna be rather static.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're gonna have population declines in in most of the the developed world.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Retail will will have will plateau.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna go down, but the huge growth is gonna be in the developing world.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a um, I think I've shared with you also a perspective quite a few years ago, a quote by William Gibson, a famous Canadian futurist who said, the future's already here, it's just unevenly distributed.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the developing world has this unique ability now, because they are in the beginning of developing, of to look at where the future has been, where it's going, and in many ways, leapfrog a middle phase to go to a more advanced stage.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic, uh Henry.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, this was a quote I had there because I know that you you referred to it as it rightly so from William Gibson.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: The future is already here, it's not just evenly distributed.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what you outline.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Also, which matches our projection is that not just retail is still alive and well in most parts, but also it is uh retail is also fueled by the global middle class, which is actually going strong in countries like Vietnam and Mexico.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so given you just mentioned, let's talk about the future.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's obviously a lot of talk in AI.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: There is those who think that it will make people more isolated, others actually believe people come together more because they have more time.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You just had a next, I think a 15,000 people event.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that itself shows that people want to come together.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: But also tell us a bit, you know, how a futuristic scenario in the retail store could look like.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Will that be when when we are 80 years, can we send the robot to pick things up?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or how what's what's some of what's your futuristic view of the store of the future?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, Wolfgang, my view of retail has always been that it's a mix um between the efficiency, the logistics, the processes of retail, and the theater of retail.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I believe that obviously, and e-commerce is a perfect example of why e-commerce has been successful and will continue to be and will continue to grow, is it does the logistics of retail and the efficiency so well.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Does it do the theater of retail as well, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this whole idea of how do you bring theater, how do you bring excitement into a retail of bricks and mortar environment will determine how successful a retailer is.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: By no means, however, does that let you escape the demands of being efficient, demands of bringing economic value to whatever.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that is gonna be a piece of everything.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when we look at, you know, today, not in the developing world, but in the developed world, we have labor shortages, right?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they're gonna get worse because the population is declining and aging, and we're gonna have fewer people, bodies really to work in stores.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a huge push to automate, to replace physical labor with technological labor.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we have to do that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's no question about that.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what we absolutely also have to avoid is just becoming, in essence, a vending machine, that the customer walks inside the vending machine to get their things.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the use of technology has to be done very thoughtfully, aggressively, but thoughtfully to maintain some sort of human interaction between people, right?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can do that in self-checkout.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have to arrange the self-checkout appropriately there.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think also the the focus in the near term should really be how can we improve non-customer-facing efficiencies by implementing new technologies?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: How can we do that?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: We we want to have customer-facing, still to have a texture of humanity there, but we do so many other things that are not customer-facing that we can bring robotics to bear, for instance, in it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Theater of retail.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's what a wonderful concept to think about.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Henry, as I mentioned, I think it was two weeks ago, you were just in Las Vegas for the Knax show.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, also something that I think it's just remarkable how you helped to build this up and you know brought in a new generation to lead Knacks.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Any any thought about the state of Knacks and any takeaways from the NAX show that you took home from Las Vegas?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was 25,000 of my closest friends.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: 25,000 of my closest friends from 73 countries this year, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from CEOs to store employees and everybody in between.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the takeaways is much of what I've I've described so far.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: It is NAX tries to help, particularly our most progressive members, to look around the corner to see what are the opportunities in the future.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's certainly we have lots of educational sessions on on operating best practices and and all of that.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the the world is not static, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Our industry fortunately is not static, and it is looking to see how do we change what's the implication of the change in the energy mosaic at retail?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: What's the change in consumer behavior?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: We spend a lot of time on changes in consumer behavior.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can just look at one category, just a short snippet here, where our industry lost its way because it forgot that consumer preferences change, and that's in coffee.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you take somebody like me who's over 70 years old, I maybe have had 10 iced coffees in my entire life, and I drink coffee.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's all hot coffee.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: However, our youngest son, who's 28 years old, he probably hasn't had 10 hot coffees in his life.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: All he drinks is cold coffees, and so we we have to understand consumer preferences really are changing.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so the next show is trying to highlight a lot of what are the changes.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And with change, it's all about, I call it discovery and so forth, but it's about innovation, and with innovation comes failure.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you're not gonna hit a home run every time.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: But but as Will Rogers said, if if even if you're on the right track, if you stay there long enough, you're gonna get run over, right?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to change and you have to experiment.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what the NAC show was all about.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was was uh a brilliant uh uh gathering, global gathering of convenience and few retailers.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, fantastic, Henry.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you'll not miss any of them.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I was lucky to have been speaking last year in Chicago, and it is indeed that kind of energy that you just outlined.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Henry, as we uh we come to an end, one I want to come a bit back to the beginning, and uh and if those of the younger viewers and those of our kids or even younger who think about the future and their future, you embody something which I never actually felt, although I met many people who have this very strong academic credentials and then this highly practical experience.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: You combine this.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is this something that you also try to translate and to transpose to other generations?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're also, you know, you should try to combine both left brain and right left side of the brain and right side, or is it something a bit unique to your own biography?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's super important because um I think if we have divides in the world today, and we do have divides, um, a lot of it is economic divides.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it is, I think uh World Data Lab is is working on finishing up a story about the tale of two consumers, and to to put it uh perhaps not totally accurately, but kind of the haves and the have-nots, that the consumers that are prospering and and the consumers that are struggling.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there are more more consumers in the world today that are are struggling than prospering, right?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: If if you are going to, I think, be a effective citizen of of the world, um you you need to understand and have experienced um the what the the vast majority of people in the world, what their lives are about.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was at the time, I'm not sure I was too thankful when my dad told me, hey, go to Mobile, Alabama in the summertime and change tires in a tire store or go pump gas, you know, in in Buffalo, New York in the wintertime, right?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it taught me so much that I could leverage then.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand you, you know, the terrific things you learn in in higher education.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what's the point of learning all of those things unless you can make a difference?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can use that to change something and change it for the vast majority of people, not just the the haves up here.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think to a certain extent, um I think there's huge opportunities for people that that can that have experience both and have those capabilities.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for sharing this in such a also a very eloquent way, Henry.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And indeed, the tale of two consumers is also available for those who want to see the the essence of it on our website.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, as you I think you embody some of the values, we're trying also to live here at World Data Lab, which is especially the value of curiosity, but also what I would call a value of non-arrogance that you're trying to really, you know, always try to understand the other side and really go deep and understand the depth of people's lives and livelihoods around the world, as you have done with Max.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Henry, the um final and closing questions of the podcast is about your favorite number.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us your favorite number and the story behind the number.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite number is 13.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you take 13 times four, it's 52, and that's the year I was born in.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some numerical kind of uh affinity to that number, but there's also kind of a uh a contrarianness.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think most people think of 13 perhaps as an unlucky number.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've always thought of it as a lucky number, and maybe that's because I'm somewhat of a contrarian.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're a very likable uh contrarian, Henry.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, thank you so much for spending time, and uh, we're very much looking forward to working with you even more in the future.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot, Henry.