Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Pay Rates for a Professional Dance Career

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Pay Rates for a Professional Dance Career · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
0:10
SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
0:13
SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: All professional dancers know to expect the unspoken question of holiday gatherings and high school reunions.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: How much money can a professional dancer even make?
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're here to shed some light on this personal yet understandable question, as well as give some insight into changes that are happening in the dance industry to make compensation for dancers more standardized and fair.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Hello, dance world, and happy Thanksgiving.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: This is Courtney, the host of Making the Impact, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mailer.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Courtney, happy Thanksgiving.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: Yay! What are you thankful for, Leslie?
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: I am thankful for season five of Making the Impact because we just keep on making the impact.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: And um, what else?
1:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm thankful for my cat.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm thankful for dance.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm thankful for the holidays in my new home, which I'm super excited that I have decorated, and I'm gonna have it decorated in December, so it's gonna be awesome.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Yay! I'm thankful for dance, of course, as well.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm thankful for a career that I love.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm thankful to travel.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: I've been traveling so much and I'm so happy to be back doing that.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm thankful for new opportunities that are heading into the new year for me, and I'm thankful for the competition season.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because it's coming up.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: It's almost here.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Yay.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, to all of our listeners out there who are enjoying a Thanksgiving feast in the States, I hope that you are spending time with loved ones and family, or maybe you're doing Friendsgiving, which is always a blast.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: So wishing everyone out there a happy Thanksgiving from Making the Impact.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: And today we're talking about a very interesting topic, and I think it's been a very requested topic from a lot of our fans in our Facebook group.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: So requested.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: People are dying to know about this information, and we're here to give it to you today after we have sought long and hard for the right guests to be able to give you a well-rounded picture of pay rates in the professional world.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes, but before we jump in to this week's episode, let's hear from our sponsors.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: Under the co-artistic direction of Francisco Gulla and Usha Marie's Rosano, Zeitgeist Dance Theater is a summer season professional dance company based in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: From the German word Zeit meaning time and geist meaning spirit, known as the spirit of the times, Zeitgeist Dance Theater reflects the now, the essence, and spirit of the age in which we presently live.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: Zeitgeist Dance Theater discusses topics that are difficult, as if topics are not discussed, change will not come.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: A core company value is understanding what is going on in the daily atmosphere and having a response for the future.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: The company also offers a training experience, providing emerging professional artists from ages 17 to 24 with a taste of professional company life.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: The company's trainees are selected annually through an audition process to participate in a three-week integrated company experience during the summer, culminating in a performance at the New Century Dance Project Festival.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Application submissions for the training experience open on December 1st, 2024.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: Learn more about Zeitgeist Dance Theater and their trainee experience by visiting their website at zeitgeistance theater.org.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: Alright, everyone, the episode you've been dying to hear.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: We are talking all about pay rates in the professional performance dance industry, y'all.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: If you want to be a professional dancer one day, if your dancer says, Mom, I want to move to New York City and become a professional, I want to move to Los Angeles and dance for an artist.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: And the parents are probably thinking, Oh my gosh, what does that even pay?
4:06
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Guess what?
4:08
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna tell you all the pay rates that exist.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully in the next hour, we're gonna try to cover it all, y'all, but we can't make all the promises.
4:16
SPEAKER_02: But we're gonna try to give you a little crash course as to an idea of what is going on in the industry when it comes to getting paid as a professional dancer and making a successful career out of it.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: We have two IDA judges and current active professionals in the dance industry joining us from both coasts today.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: We have a New Yorker and we have a LA dancer coming to you live on Making the Impact.
4:40
SPEAKER_02: And the first guest that I'm excited to welcome is a new guest to our podcast.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: She just joined our IDA roster as a judge last season, and she's out in Los Angeles having a beautiful dance career out there.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to welcome Kaylee Ann Nasora to the podcast.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Kaylee and thank you.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to learn all about what the LA dance scene is like because obviously Leslie and I are both over on the New York scene.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: That's where we've had our entire career.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: And I've been in LA and I've heard things from the LA scene, but I really don't know, especially now, what's going on out there as far as different types of gigs and what the pay is looking like for those.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: So can't wait to hear all about that from you.
5:23
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us on the podcast.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: And if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit more about you, where you grew up, uh your early dance training, any career credits, and what you're working on now.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm originally from New Hampshire, right on the sort of seacoast area.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: I currently live in Los Angeles, as you said.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a pretty standard competition background, your ballet, tap, jazz, hip-hop.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: And pretty quickly I sort of gravitated towards hip-hop more than anything.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: And from there I realized, well, that's not really what's happening in New York as much as it is in LA.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And I found myself really gravitated towards the fusion of jazz and hip-hop and contemporary that lives out in the LA scene.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Made my way over there, and I am currently working on a national tour with an artist, Ileana.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And some of my other career credits include The Weekends, Siza, Sia.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I did a European tour at the beginning of this year with Mel C, Dragonbone Man, and Elle.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think that's that's kind of where I'm at now.
6:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes, you are living that commercial dance life out there.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure so many dancers are hearing this and saying that's the career that I want as you know, an upcoming aspiring professional.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: So I can't wait to hear all about uh how it's been for you navigating the LA dance scene.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm excited to share.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: Next special guest is a returning guest to our podcast.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: And she hasn't been here since season three.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: But fun fact, she was on our very first podcast episode ever in the Making the Impact history, the very first one, season one, episode one.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: And that episode was What Dance Competitions Taught Me.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: Aw, that's such a great way how we kicked off Make the Impact podcast and look at us five seasons later.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: A few other episodes you may have heard her on was season two, episode 31, making the most of your classes, and season three, episode 77, the open category.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Such a hot topic.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to welcome back IDA Judge Ashley Marinelli.
7:23
SPEAKER_04: Hi everyone, how are you?
7:24
SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited to be back.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm so thrilled to have you back on this chat, and I'm so excited to hear because I know that you are currently working as a choreographer now.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: You and you and I, we go way back to performing together in the New York City scene and auditioning so many auditions together in the New York scene.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: And now you've transitioned over to being more of a creative and a choreographer and producer and all the things.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: So I know you're still in it and still active in doing auditions for dancers now.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: So can't wait to hear what you have, you know, what you've learned through your years as a working professional.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: And if you wouldn't mind just sharing with the world, reminding them a little bit more about you.
8:03
SPEAKER_04: For sure.
8:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, I'm Ashley Marinelli.
8:05
SPEAKER_04: I grew up in New York State.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: I went to NYU for dance.
8:09
SPEAKER_04: I ended up in the concert dance scene for a while, then shifted, or kind of simultaneously, my dog is squeaking her toy.
8:16
SPEAKER_04: I'm so sorry.
8:18
SPEAKER_04: No, I started out in the concert dance scene and kind of transitioned over to the theater scene.
8:23
SPEAKER_04: And so the place where I live right now is uh shows that often are a hybrid of like concert dance and theatrical uh movement, and I've had a lot of fun there.
8:34
SPEAKER_04: I also do some commercial dance, but mostly based in New York.
8:37
SPEAKER_04: I've danced with some artists, I've worked for Disney Cruise Line.
8:40
SPEAKER_04: I have been in many a musical.
8:43
SPEAKER_04: I currently have a show running off Broadway called A Musical About Star Wars, and my show, Stranger Sings, which I also choreographed, um, was off Broadway.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: Then we were in Australia and we just closed in Australia.
8:53
SPEAKER_04: We have a tour going in the UK right now, and we're headed to a production uh regionally in Tampa, Florida this March.
8:59
SPEAKER_04: So cool.
9:00
SPEAKER_04: Doing all the things.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: You are you're always doing something, Ash.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: I love following your career and your journey.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: You're just killing it.
9:07
SPEAKER_04: And don't you also teach at like three colleges or something?
9:09
SPEAKER_04: I do.
9:10
SPEAKER_04: Well, right now it's it's two, it's two.
9:13
SPEAKER_04: Right now I'm at I'm at Merrymount, Manhattan, which is where I just came from, which is why I'm just eating lunch during this podcast.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: And I also teach at Long Island University out in Long Island.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad I I remember you doing your Disney cruise ship, but then I was like, oh yeah, you've done a cruise ship, so you can also speak on that.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: So we are we're really covering all the basis here when it comes to the New York scene, Broadway, concert dance, cruise ship things.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: And then we have Kaylian navigating the commercial side.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: So let's jump into this chat.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Can't wait.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So excited.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have we have a little bit of representation from everywhere, which I think is awesome.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: But first, I want to give a just a very, very general because I know it can get in the weeds about uh non-union versus union in both the theatrical world and the commercial world, uh, just so that when we reference those things, because those those uh titles and those uh memberships matter in terms of pay, so that people are like, what do you even mean by this?
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So Ash, can you take uh union and non-union in terms of equity?
10:18
SPEAKER_01: And then Kayleanne, can you tell us a little bit about the SAG Afterlife?
10:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for sure.
10:23
SPEAKER_04: So in the simplest terms, equity is also known as actors' equity.
10:28
SPEAKER_04: It is a union that started, I believe it was 1913.
10:31
SPEAKER_04: Check me on that.
10:31
SPEAKER_04: Fact check me on that.
10:32
SPEAKER_04: But it started at the players' uh club on 20th Street, which is where my show that I produced uh last May uh was.
10:42
SPEAKER_04: So there's a room, you can see the plaque on the door, it's where a bunch of disgruntled actors got together from the Broadway scene and were like, we should really have a union.
10:50
SPEAKER_04: So I think it was 1913 at the players' club, and uh basically they came together and demanded certain benefits and certain rights and certain pay scales for Broadway actors, which also includes dancers, stage managers are also included in that.
11:06
SPEAKER_04: So you can be part of the union and the pay rates and the benefits and the health care is is one particular thing, or you can forego that and stay non-union.
11:16
SPEAKER_04: And usually the rates are much lower and you're not guaranteed healthcare, et cetera, et cetera.
11:20
SPEAKER_04: We can talk about the dicey territory in between and how that's changed over the years, but in general, that's what we're talking about.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: And just a quick note you can't just say, I want to be in the union and be in the union.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: That's different than other unions if you're if your parents are like in the postmaster's union.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if there's a union for them, but a lot of unions you can just sign up and say, I want to be a part of this.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: In actors equity, you cannot.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: So just we can go into that in maybe a whole nother podcast episode.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: Like, well, I mean, no, you kind of can, but just kidding.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you have yeah, back in our day, you had to actually earn earn credits before you were allowed in.
11:57
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, yeah.
11:58
SPEAKER_04: Feel free to cut all this out if you're a whole nother, a whole nother podcast.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so when you're when you're working within actors equity, there's a standardized amount of money that you're going to be paid based on your contract.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: When you're a non-union person, kind of anything goes.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: And just to chime in really quick to just let everyone know that we're speaking of the New York dancing, but when we're speaking about the actors' equity union, there are more unions besides the actors' equity union in New York City, but this is specifically for any type of musical theater, theatrical type of performance.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: So anything you see on Broadway and regional theaters around the country is what we're kind of speaking about there.
12:34
SPEAKER_04: Though it does get tricky, especially when you're working for Disney, because I forget which one is which, but Disney World is Aqua's activity.
12:44
SPEAKER_04: Disney Land is Agva.
12:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:47
SPEAKER_04: Agva, yeah.
12:48
SPEAKER_04: And Radio City Music Hall, Christmas was technically Agva.
12:53
SPEAKER_04: Oh variety artists.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Variety artists.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: So there's a bunch of different unions, but and then Metropolitan Opera is Agma.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: Agma.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: So they're all unions, but they all govern slightly different pieces of the industry.
13:10
SPEAKER_04: Actors Equity is for theatrical productions.
13:13
SPEAKER_04: Agva is uh a union for variety artists, which includes Radio City Music Hall, which includes like some cabaret acts, etc.
13:21
SPEAKER_04: I think Cirque de Soleil might be an aggressive production.
13:25
SPEAKER_04: Maybe.
13:26
SPEAKER_04: Etc.
13:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:28
SPEAKER_04: I've never, yeah.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot more complicated.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot more complicated than you might think.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Just so for everybody out there who has no idea, we we also sort of sometimes have no idea because it's very complicated.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: Season six, we'll do a non-union versus union episode for.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that would be a spicy one.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Very spicy.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: Punches will be thrown.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: All right, Kayleigh Ann, tell us a little bit about what SAG AFTRA is and the non-union difference.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes, totally.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's funny because the same thing goes in LA where there's SAGAFTRA.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: We all know SAGAFTRA, but do we really know what that means, right?
14:02
SPEAKER_00: I used to work at an agency as one of my side hustles, and I used to have actors that have been in SAG AFTRA walk-in, and they've been a member for eight, nine years, and they still said, Well, I actually don't know how that works.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, I'm a member, but I'm actually still figuring out what that means, or this term or that term.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: So even as a member, you can still be figuring it out.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: So but SAG AFTRA is a Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, and it's an American labor union, and it reflects a merge between SAG and AFTRA.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: So SAG AFTRA does not just represent dancers, it also represents a lot of the people that you see on TV, right?
14:36
SPEAKER_00: So those actors as well.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times commercial models can fall under this category too, because you can join SAG by getting, you know, you're SAG working on a SAG voucher, and so that SAG voucher can come from a variety of different places, but it's not just dancers, it's not just actors, and it's not just models who may find themselves in commercials as well.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: But essentially, then you have non-union, which is pretty much anything that's not SAG AFTRA, but then it can also get sticky because you can work on a non-union waiver on a SAG project.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: So just because a project is SAG does not necessarily mean that you're working as SAG.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: So it can get sticky.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a variety of SAG contracts that you could work on, and all those pay scales look different, but it essentially ensures a certain type of protection on set, um, hazard pay, meal times being in proper increments.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: It can also ensure that your hours on set and your time before returning back to set is fair and ethical.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: And it can also provide health care if you make enough money throughout the year working under a SAG waiver.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: So only the money made working on SAG projects goes towards that number.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: But if you reach that number, then you have the opportunity to get great healthcare, and you also have the opportunity to get screeners, which is seeing all of the films that are nominated for the Academy Awards.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: I also think another another thing regarding SAG, when we're when we're speaking in the commercial side, and I'm uh I learned this as I was working on commercial things in New York.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh, another perk to being in the union is residuals, which is in non-union world, there's not there's usually more of like a buyout.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: So if someone goes and works on a contract, you they can set their rates to whatever they want in non-union and they can say, all right, we're not gonna give you a residual each time this runs on television, but we're just gonna give you a lump sum of here's just extra cash to throw at you to just cover that and essentially act as your residual and it's technically a buyout, which is actually worse sometimes because if this would have been in the union and it would have been, and if you see, you know those commercials that you just see play 24-7, and the whole time you see it, I'm just thinking, like, dang, that person's probably making so much money on residuals, but you don't know because if it was a non-union commercial, then they probably aren't making residuals.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: But if it's a sag after commercial, they're probably raking in the dough in residual money.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: So that's another perk.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: I always say the bigger the buyout, the more red the flag uh with non-union, because although the number can look really exciting, like I especially when you're first moving out somewhere, that non-union buyout could look like$10,000.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: And oh my gosh, I mean, that if you find a good deal, that could be rent for the year.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Um so that the number looks really exciting, but the reality of it is if that commercial had residuals on it and was part of a SAG contract, that could look like$100,000 or more.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's important to note that sometimes those big buyouts can kind of be a ripoff.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, and we're gonna talk all about it, but uh thank you, thank you both for sharing that.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: And I think for our listeners, that's just kind of like a little insider look at what union versus non, if we do reference that throughout this discussion.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: All right, well, I guess let's just jump right on in because the people want the numbers.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: The people want the numbers.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we are we've all been there with like, you know, you you go to your Thanksgiving dinner.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's literally Thanksgiving.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: So you might want to listen to this before Thanksgiving dinner.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: So you have some information to give your great uncle Sam, you know, who's like, well, what could you possibly do dancing?
18:08
SPEAKER_01: You couldn't make any money dancing.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, some of us can.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: And let's get started.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Let's what is a Broadway contract for a dancer look like in terms of pay?
18:18
SPEAKER_04: So currently, uh there is a Broadway minimum.
18:22
SPEAKER_04: Now, all Broadway shows are, well, it's getting tricky now, but I was gonna say all Broadway shows are covered under uh actors' equity.
18:31
SPEAKER_04: So, well, used to be that any Broadway show you would be part of, you are covered under actors' equity guidelines.
18:38
SPEAKER_04: Now, there are some exceptions with like magic shows that end up on Broadway and variety shows or like one night guest, you know, Bruce Springsteen is technically playing a Broadway theater and you're a backup dancer, you're not covered under equity.
18:53
SPEAKER_04: So it gets a little dicey these days, but in general, currently the minimum salary for a Broadway performer as of 2023 is$2,439 a week.
19:06
SPEAKER_04: Now that's we're talking minimum minimum, which is a great, I think that's a great salary.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't even think the word minimum applies.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of money.
19:13
SPEAKER_04: It's a lot of money.
19:14
SPEAKER_04: Now, uh, you can get uh bumps for, for example, hazard pay for moving a set piece in a scene that you're not in.
19:25
SPEAKER_04: There are all these tiny little bumps bumps that you can find.
19:29
SPEAKER_04: Uh, for example, if you're a dance captain on a Broadway contract, you get an additional$464.60 per week.
19:37
SPEAKER_04: So added to that minimum.
19:39
SPEAKER_04: That's cute.
19:39
SPEAKER_04: If you're a swing who understands multiple ensemble tracks, you earn an additional$116.15 over the minimum.
19:47
SPEAKER_04: Gotta have that 15 cents.
19:49
SPEAKER_04: Should be more.
19:50
SPEAKER_04: And all of these numbers are like products of negotiations between actors, equity, union, and producers.
19:56
SPEAKER_04: And and you know, they get updated every so often.
19:58
SPEAKER_04: I think we just had a negotiation cycle, and I think new things were added to the contracts, et cetera.
20:04
SPEAKER_04: But assistant dance captain,$232.30 a week.
20:08
SPEAKER_04: If you're a fight uh captain who maintains the fight choreography, if the show has fight choreography, it's an additional hundred dollars a week, etc.
20:17
SPEAKER_04: etc.
20:17
SPEAKER_04: So if you are an associate choreographer and a dance captain on top of your Broadway minimum salary, that is that is a decent paycheck.
20:27
SPEAKER_04: Now, what you do have to remember is 10% will go to your agent, 10% will go to your manager if you have a manager, and then you also pay equity dues.
20:36
SPEAKER_04: So they're called working dues, which means because the union is protecting you, they take, I forget what the rate is right now, but it's usually, I'm gonna say it's somewhere in the like three to six percent range.
20:47
SPEAKER_04: I could be entirely wrong.
20:48
SPEAKER_04: I'd have to fact check that.
20:50
SPEAKER_04: But that amount goes to the union so the union can keep fighting for its members.
20:55
SPEAKER_04: So basically, subtract 25% from that salary.
21:01
SPEAKER_04: Still a good salary, but you know, it's not and then also you're gonna get the healthcare and pay, you know, all the things.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: Pre-text, that's over$100,000 a year.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: If you're a working performer, if we're talking about like you know, The Lion King, a show that's been on forever, it's not closing.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: You got in when it was good and you're still there.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Like that's great.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:23
SPEAKER_04: And I had a friend that that joined Lion King uh really uh right out of school, and she was granted what's called um a I think it's a pink contract, right?
21:32
SPEAKER_04: Which basically means you have a job until the show closes down or you don't fit your costumes anymore.
21:39
SPEAKER_04: I don't know if they still do that, but like when she joined the show, she was given a pink contract.
21:44
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
21:45
SPEAKER_04: And I've never heard of that.
21:47
SPEAKER_04: Uh apparently, and this was in 2009.
21:51
SPEAKER_03: 2009.
21:51
SPEAKER_04: So I don't know if they even do that anymore, but she stayed in the show for a long time and then she ended up moving on to other things.
21:57
SPEAKER_04: She was she had she had Spent her time, I think she was in it for like seven years or something, and then she decided to leave.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: But anyway, yeah, so that's the minimum.
22:07
SPEAKER_04: And if you have an agent, which is where 10% of your salary would go, they can also negotiate up for you.
22:12
SPEAKER_04: Like if I have an agent and I say, like, listen, I think I am worth more than this$2,439 a week based on my past credits, based on like I'm the only tenor I know that can sing the tenor track and do tumbling and kick your face and kick your face.
22:30
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know.
22:31
SPEAKER_04: There are ways to negotiate that salary up.
22:33
SPEAKER_04: So that's where it starts.
22:34
SPEAKER_04: And then uh leads of Broadway shows, of course, are making way more than that.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: They get to negotiate up.
22:39
SPEAKER_04: I feel like I heard something.
22:41
SPEAKER_04: Now I'm gonna get these numbers wrong.
22:42
SPEAKER_04: But I wanna say when who was it in, I wanna say Barbara Streisand was like making like 65,000 a week as the lead.
22:55
SPEAKER_04: But this was 10 years ago.
22:56
SPEAKER_04: Like salaries for leads, especially if you're a well-known lead, get crazy.
23:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, crazy money.
23:03
SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah, but us dancers on the ground here is 2,439 a week.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: That's just that's livable money right there.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: It's livable.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: And I will say that like for our listeners out there, we started at like the top-tier contract that you can.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to give everybody like the the goal.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like nobody goes into dance wanting to make$200 a week.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Like we want to make a living.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: We've definitely done that right quickly.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: It's all been there.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: So I was I was planning on starting at the top, and then we'll start at the top of commercial life on the other side.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And and then we're gonna make our way down to probably the more norm where the majority of people make their monies, plus all the other things we do to make our money.
23:43
SPEAKER_04: Though I will say, can I make it just a little bit more complicated?
23:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:48
SPEAKER_04: Talking about like royalties and things, there's such a thing now called profit sharing when it comes to Broadway shows.
23:53
SPEAKER_04: Now, this is kind of a brand new thing.
23:55
SPEAKER_04: I think the production of Hamilton was the first production to do it.
24:00
SPEAKER_04: Makes sense.
24:00
SPEAKER_04: Fact check me on that.
24:01
SPEAKER_04: But what that original cast got, because they were part of making the show from the ground up, all the workshops, all of the work that went into creating the show, which the cast had a lot to do with, if you were part of the original cast of Hamilton, you have a I think those actors and dancers have profit sharing now, which means I think they get a percentage of global ticket sales.
24:25
SPEAKER_04: I am not an original cast member of Hamilton, so I cannot confirm, but I feel like I've got friends who told me about that.
24:31
SPEAKER_04: And it's this great system where, like, if you had a hand in making the original thing, you are owed part of the profits, the show globally.
24:38
SPEAKER_04: And so that I think that was the first company to do it on Broadway, and it was really innovative.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: And those people are like, it's really nice that the producers were able to do that, especially since they made their investment back.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, they totally fought for it for a while, right?
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember that's I you mentioned it, and I was like, oh my God, I remember when this was happening.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you know, they worked really hard, and it wasn't just Lynn, Manuel, Miranda, it was everybody involved.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: So of course they should get some money.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
25:04
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know that it's some percentage of ticket sales, you know, who knows?
25:08
SPEAKER_04: It could be one percent of one percent of ticket sales, and that would still be a nice paycheck.
25:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because of Hamilton has multiple companies around the world.
25:15
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
25:15
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, we'd have to ask an original company member, but I do know that they have profit sharing, and now other productions are starting to do that too, which is which is cool.
25:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's great.
25:24
SPEAKER_04: Super smart.
25:30
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25:40
SPEAKER_02: New Century Dance Project focuses on teaching the craft of choreography and why it's important for both choreographers and the dancer.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: The festival components include a choreography intensive for dancers ages 15 to 24, a choreography competition, concert performances, and community outreach events.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: The seven-day intensive starts every day with a technique class.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: After that, participants will head into classes and seminars that aid in the choreographic process, such as compositional techniques, improv, use of props, music selection, partnering, lighting and design, and so much more.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: The choreographic competition offers three age groups: high school, undergraduate, and emerging professional.
26:20
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26:37
SPEAKER_02: The deadline to submit your choreography for consideration is by March 1st, 2024.
26:42
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26:51
SPEAKER_02: Learn more on their website at New Century Dance Project.org.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: All right, so we've covered the, you know, probably one of the highest paying, you know, jobs in dance, which is a Broadway dancer.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And let's go over to LA.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Let's move on over to the sunny state.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: What do things look like on the SAG After side in commercial dance?
27:14
SPEAKER_01: What's maybe like in your experience the highest paid job that you know of or that you can think of?
27:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say dancing on a sag commercial is is gonna be the quickest way to make the most amount of money.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: It's typically maybe you have a fitting, maybe one to two, three shoot days feels crazy for a commercial with the way that the commercial world is working right now.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: They're trying to do as much as they can in one day.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: So call it a day plus two hours of work, could have the ability to make you six figures.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: And again, that's uh based on you know residuals coming in.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, I have friends that have worked on a Super Bowl commercial and they made half a million dollars in one day.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: So there's that ability, which is I would say similar to winning the lottery in a lot of senses, like absolutely the fact that they would want a dancer in the commercial, right?
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Someone dancing, yeah.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: So starting there, and then on top of that, to be the dancer selected, right?
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Out of the pool of thousands of dancers who submitted, you know, it's like oh my god, totally a lot of that.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: So that I mean, that's the one in a million, I would say.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: But there's also a lot of other great commercials that come up more regularly that live in the SAG world that can also pay really, really big numbers, and that can be anywhere from you know 10,000 to 70 to 80,000, which again for one day of work, oh my gosh.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: And that even still can feel like a little bit of a lottery because in LA, 10% of commercials are SAGAFTRA, and again, you're also banking on there being a dancer in the commercial.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: So I would say outside of that commercial that you're gonna see on TV, another way to make like really secure money is a tour.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: And actually, most tours don't tend to fall under SAG After.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: The last one that I know that really fell under SAGAFTRA that was with an artist was I believe Justin Timberlake was one of the first to do it.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: He provided his dancers with healthcare and did SAG After, and that was a huge deal.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: And that was great on his last tour that happened, and that was a huge deal.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: And I in my head it would make sense that Taylor Swift's dancers were protected under SAGAFTA, but I actually don't know.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: They may have just been paid incredibly well and treated very well.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Same thing with the Renaissance tour dancers.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: I know that there being such an A-list artist, that check looked a lot bigger than your standard artist tour.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: But let's say you book a tour with just a regular music artist, that weekly minimum is to$2,163.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: And that would be if your tour extends past a three-week period.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: If a tour is shorter than three weeks, that's considered spot dates, and it would be charged as you know, you charge half your rate for an off day, which and then your show day is a show rate, your off days you get per diem, and then you're paid for travel days as well.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So that would collect as your rate if it's less than three weeks, but if it's more than three weeks, you're working on that weekly rate.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Same thing applies to the agent commission and things like that for for jobs like this.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: If you have an agent.
30:17
unknown: Yes.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you have an agent, 10% goes to them, and if you have a manager, 10% goes to them.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Most dancers out here that I know do not have a manager that covers dance.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: It's not really typical out here.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: For example, I have a manager who does not, he's kind enough to not touch what I do in dance, and he just does on camera acting work.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: But all dance agents out here take 10%.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: And I will say that in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I have found that when you're working commercially, it's a little bit easier for the agents to be able to negotiate 10% on top of what you're getting, so it doesn't come out of what the dancers are getting.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, so this is actually a common misconception.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And I learned this from working at a commercial agency for two years.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of talent would come in saying, What did you do with my 10%?
31:08
SPEAKER_00: There was a 20% agency fee added on to the rate.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: I saw it on the breakdown.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: You did.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: But where the way agents get paid, and this is at least in LA, it's under California law, is there's a fee that goes to the agents that says, Thank you so much for giving us access to your talent, right?
31:23
SPEAKER_00: You sit there and you manage talent all day, and you are um tending to their photos, suggesting, you know, ways to help them improve their career, this, that, and the other.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving us access to your talent, taking the time to submit, negotiating the deal, etc.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Here's 20% of your talent's rate.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: That is the client paying to the agent.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: And then the talent has to pay to their agent as well.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: And that is an additional percentage that comes out.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: A lot of talent are confused on that end, which it may be different in New York.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: There may be a different standard in New York State, but in California, I have fielded many of phone calls with angry talent saying, Where is my percentage?
32:01
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I have to read reread the contract to you if this is actually and that's yeah, a common misconception that that plus percentage is an agency fee that goes to the agent, and then you still have to pay your agent out of your fee.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Read your contract, friends, read your contract if it's in there.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: That is, yeah, that's definitely that's interesting to hear because I you see that like plus 10 and you're like, oh, okay, sweet, it's covered, but then actually it might not be.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: And what's interesting is if you don't have an agent, they don't have to pay that.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: And people say, Oh, well, why?
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's because that would just go directly to them.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: It's not really what it's going to be.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: So exactly, yeah.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: I want to share a quick uh story from experience, and it was my one and only commercial that I ever did.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: And when you were when you use that as an example of being like the most lucrative option out in LA as a dancer, I did one commercial in New York City.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: It was the weirdest commercial ever.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: It's incredibly weird, y'all.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: You should look it up.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: It it it when my agent sent me the audition, I was like, I'm not going to this audition.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is this?
33:05
SPEAKER_02: I was asked to be a robot and come in and just like act, like do a robot and say a certain thing in this casting.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And you know, you get these castings sometimes that are just so far out there and don't utilize your dance skills whatsoever.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: But you're just like, I guess my agent sentenced me, I guess I'll go.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: Somehow I booked it.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: Don't know how.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: Somehow I booked it.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: I now have a savings account because of that commercial.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm telling you all, like, it was the it was the easiest non-dance.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Didn't you just literally run across a room or something dressed like a robot?
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was in a robot.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: I got like I had to get like a life cast done of my face when they like mold your head for my costume.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: Like I was at this top tier, like crazy.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: I worked with like some crazy Hollywood uh director, like all these things over being a robot in a casting where I just like did the robot on camera and they're like, you're booked.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: And next thing you know, I have a savings savings account of like$30,000 I made on that in residuals.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: 30,000, I was like the easiest gig of my life.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: So I can see how people are like, oh, let's let's move to LA and become, you know, in go into the commercial world.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: But I will say, like, I like that sounds exciting, but to me, that was my lotto.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: It was just this unexpected lottery gig that I got.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, agent.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: But again, like that was my one commercial gig in in New York City in 15 years.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's not a guarantee that you're gonna be getting these types of jobs that we're talking about.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: It's they're far and few between, but like they do exist and you could be that lucky person.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: So don't turn down the robot gig.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Do not turn down any crazy commercial casting.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: You never know.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Go to all the all of the sad commercial castings.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't care what they want you to do.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Truly.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I learned that very quick.
34:46
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, in line with what you're saying, like a Broadway job too.
34:51
SPEAKER_04: Like you could be the luckiest person in the world and you're really bookable and you book a Broadway show, it's wonderful, but that show could close on opening night.
35:00
SPEAKER_04: And so there's the tricky part is there's no guarantees.
35:02
SPEAKER_04: Even if you're like, oh man, I'm gonna be making the salary, uh, which is true, and that might last you, you know, three weeks, your show closes, and then you have to find another gig.
35:13
SPEAKER_04: And and I think that's what some people look at those minimum salaries and go, oh my gosh, wow, being a dancer is so lucrative.
35:20
SPEAKER_04: And you're like, yes, and that's possibly five weeks out of your year.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's possible, it's maybe the cast has six female dancers in it, and some of them have a pink contract and are not leaving that show.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
35:33
SPEAKER_01: So, like when you're thinking of, I'm gonna go do this, well, first of all, so is a lot of other people.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Secondly, there's a whole lot of other people already doing that who are not gonna leave.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Like if you have a job like that and you are a happy person and you like this job and this is what you're supposed to do, like you're not leaving, barring, you know, injury, illness, act of God, like you're there.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: You're in that job.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_04: And I've always heard it said, and I not to be discouraging, but like if you want to do any, if you have other interests and you think you could be happy doing something else, do something else.
36:04
SPEAKER_04: Because this job is so tricky.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: And I think worth it.
36:08
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't know, Kaylee Ann, what you think, but like I am so glad that I do what I do, and it has not been easy.
36:15
SPEAKER_04: It has always been such a struggle, and I consider myself to have been very lucky in the jobs that I have gotten.
36:21
SPEAKER_04: And it's still been a struggle.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: I could not agree more with that sentiment.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I told my mom I was doing this podcast, and she goes, I have things to say, and that is you better want to do it.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, mom, come on, Mrs.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Missora.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: It's it's true though, yeah.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, but she made a good point when she said that is like you better love it and you better be ready to hear know a lot.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: And it is worth it.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: But also, like, if you're not, if I talked to a lot of young dancers that maybe went to the same college, I went to or the same dance studio back home, and they're like, I think I might maybe.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: And I said, think about it, and unless you have like a I need to do this, maybe don't, because there's probably 700 people at the open call that you're about to go to that want it more than they want to take their next breath.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's not gonna be fun all the time, right?
37:09
SPEAKER_04: And I think if you, if the reason you are doing this is because it's an easy way to make money, that is also not a reason you should do this.
37:17
SPEAKER_04: You should want to do this and it's not true, make you know, minimum wage.
37:22
SPEAKER_04: Like it's gonna end up not being unless you are the lottery winner, unless you are that person, it there are much easier ways to make a good salary.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: So that being said, let's jump over to some like mid-range obtainable jobs.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about some of the jobs that a lot of people there are there are a lot of, there are a lot of opportunities to get as a we you might not be at the top tier just yet, but we all gotta start somewhere.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: So, what are what are some type of jobs?
37:53
SPEAKER_02: Something that comes immediately to mind for me is a cruise ship.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: I love a cruise ship.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: If you've listened to the podcast, Leslie and I met as roommates on Royal Caribbean, both of our very first jobs ever.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a great job for anyone at any point in their career.
38:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it just has to be for dancers who are just breaking in because let's talk about pay on a cruise ship.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: I I have some ideas, but this has been a while.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, FYI.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna, Leslie and I were just reminiscing before we started, and we were like, how much did we get paid on Royal Caribbean when 15 years ago?
38:28
SPEAKER_02: I know for a fact that I got paid for my very first job eight, they they pitch it in a monthly salary to make it sound more enticing when my 18-year-old brain like didn't know anything different.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, sign me up.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: I got paid$450 a week to live on a cruise ship, y'all, at 18 years old, 15 years ago.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: That was like, what was I doing?
38:48
SPEAKER_02: What is happening?
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, but I did it and I loved it.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: You had no credit card debt, you had no college student loans.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: You lived your life.
38:57
SPEAKER_04: So I want to say, so I worked for Disney Cruise Line, and again, this was in 2000, it must have been 2011, so over 10 years ago.
39:05
SPEAKER_04: And I was also a dance captain.
39:07
SPEAKER_04: So I got a bump for being a dance captain.
39:09
SPEAKER_04: I was also, I was a I got hazard pay because I was I was like a tumble uh circus act track.
39:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and I Disney's pay rates get bumped anyway because they're they just pay really well.
39:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
39:23
SPEAKER_04: I wanna say that my minimum salary before I got any bumps 10 years ago was 1050 a week.
39:31
SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's it.
39:33
SPEAKER_04: I wanna I wanna say it was over a thousand a week, and then I got some extra for dance captain and stuff.
39:38
SPEAKER_04: But the cool thing about Disney, and I don't know if they still do this, I'd have to ask my friend who who works for them now, but they give you if you make it through your contract, because the contracts are really long for cruise ship contracts.
39:50
SPEAKER_04: My contract was a full 10-month contract, and it Disney's rules are really strict.
39:56
SPEAKER_04: Like part of the reason you get paid as well as you do is that you have to follow rules on your off time.
40:01
SPEAKER_04: You're not allowed to wear certain things, you have to speak in a certain way.
40:05
SPEAKER_04: You can't lean on things.
40:06
SPEAKER_04: It's called like you have to wear a Disney look and you have to like behave in a way that is like Disney approved.
40:12
SPEAKER_04: So there are a lot of rules that go along with that.
40:15
SPEAKER_04: And if you make it through your contract, I believe it's a you get a 10% bonus when you get off your ship.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: A lot of a finishing bonus.
40:24
SPEAKER_04: So I got off my ship with 10,000 extra dollars.
40:27
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
40:27
SPEAKER_04: Like I paid rent for a year.
40:29
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:29
SPEAKER_04: Because I had completed my contract.
40:31
SPEAKER_04: I got off my ship in LA.
40:32
SPEAKER_04: I spent a month in LA just seeing if I liked LA.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: No offense, Kaylee Ann, New York has my heart, and I came back.
40:39
SPEAKER_04: But and yeah, and I paid rent for a year with that bonus.
40:44
SPEAKER_04: And it was it was great.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
40:46
SPEAKER_04: Anyway.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: And I will say that like um another thing I just want to just praise about cruise ships.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: I would say currently that like the rate for cruise ships feels like it's around like minimum 600 a week for like new, fresh, young dancers who are just breaking in, or this is your first time working for this company, you don't have a lot on your resume, like min starting is around 600 a week.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: And then it can go over, like you said, Ash, like over a thousand.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: Some even go up to like 1500 a week.
41:15
SPEAKER_04: That is, I was I was just a dancer.
41:18
SPEAKER_04: I wasn't even a principal.
41:19
SPEAKER_04: Right.
41:20
SPEAKER_04: Our like principals were making more than me anyway.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: So, like, I do think that, and like you said, Leslie, like I mentioned I got paid no dollars doing Royal Caribbean, but like I got experience, I got to travel the world for free, I didn't have any expenses, my all my food was taken care of.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: I put every single dollar into my pocket.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have like I was saving every single dollar there.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: And then that's what allowed me to move to New York City.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if you look at it like, oh, that's not enough to survive, you don't have expenses.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: What do you pay?
41:48
SPEAKER_02: You don't even need a cell phone on a cruise ship.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't need to pay for your cell phone plan.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: They could they give you health care when you're on, they take care of you.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: So like everything's covered.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: There's literally nothing coming out of your pocket in bills unless you have like a mortgage back home or an apartment that you're, you know, didn't sublet.
42:04
SPEAKER_04: I paid a lot of student loans with that paycheck.
42:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:07
SPEAKER_04: Right after college, that was really useful for me to pay back a lot of student loans.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: And a great thing too with the cruise ships now, since I've all since you know Leslie and I and Ash were doing it, is now they have musicals on cruise ships and those pay even more than like the standard generic dancer contracts.
42:24
SPEAKER_02: So if you love, if you want to be in a hairspray, if you want to be in cats, if you want to be in Chicago on a cruise ship, those options are there too.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's a great like way to kind of break into the quote unquote Broadway scene by getting a little taste of what the musical life is like.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: And they also teach you how to do like aerial work on cruise ships.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: So and all of these things include like in additional pay bumps.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: So like I'm a huge like advocate for going and doing cruise ships because it's a great way to save money.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: And there's tons of options, opportunities out there.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: Like they need so many dancers, there's like however many cruise line companies, and then they have a trillion ships, and those trillion ships need 10 dancers per ship, you know, tons of opportunity for dancers.
43:03
SPEAKER_04: There's also regional theater.
43:04
SPEAKER_04: Regional theater is where I have like spent a lot of my time in my career, and I love working at large regional theaters that pay really well.
43:13
SPEAKER_04: Also, um, the thing about regional theaters is they're often half and half.
43:17
SPEAKER_04: You can be non-union or you can be union, either way.
43:21
SPEAKER_04: I've worked at regional theaters, non-union and union, and some of them pay really well.
43:27
SPEAKER_04: I've worked at like shout-out to Tuacon Ampitheater out in Utah in the in the deserts of Utah.
43:32
SPEAKER_04: It's like an 80-foot by 80-foot stage with 40 feet in the back of mountain, like Red Rock Mountain.
43:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, I think it's a 2,000 seat house, and you do three shows in rep.
43:42
SPEAKER_04: It's a, I want to say it's like an eight month contract.
43:44
SPEAKER_04: It's April through November.
43:47
SPEAKER_04: And you run three shows in rep.
43:49
SPEAKER_04: And I was out there as a performer and as a dance captain and as an associate.
43:53
SPEAKER_04: So I got and I got bumps for all of that.
43:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was making some great money for for eight months.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: And you know, in the meantime, they house you and you know Per D get to do lots of hiking and per diem and stuff.
44:07
SPEAKER_04: So I I had a great time working those regional contracts as well.
44:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
44:12
SPEAKER_04: And there are a lot of great theaters.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: That's and once if if you're a dancer who's moving to New York and you're looking for, you know, you start to learn the coveted theaters and the places people really want to work.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: TuCon is one of them.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: It's one of those jobs that you're like, oh my God, if I could just work there because of that, it's a long contract.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: You're doing all these shows.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: It's beautiful.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: You're working with, you know, a lot of times Broadway choreographers are working out there.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: So like TuCon is one of those ones that you, you know, it's it's not the lottery, but it feels like it because everybody wants to work there for many reasons.
44:43
SPEAKER_04: And the good thing about it is they have auditions in LA, they have auditions in New York, they travel around the country, and their casts are huge because they're huge.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: So my my newsies cast, so I did Newsies in 2017.
44:58
SPEAKER_04: So our main cast, I want to say, had 30 people, which is already huge.
45:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:03
SPEAKER_04: And then we had an additional teen cast, like local teens who auditioned for us.
45:07
SPEAKER_04: The total amount of people on stage during the last scene was 78 people.
45:11
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
45:11
SPEAKER_04: Holy cow.
45:12
SPEAKER_04: That's amazing.
45:14
SPEAKER_04: Which was great.
45:15
SPEAKER_04: It's fun to be on stage with 50 people dancing at once.
45:18
SPEAKER_04: It's great.
45:19
SPEAKER_04: That's awesome.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, so I want to also just chime in a little bit on the regional theater land, because I was looking back at some of my regional theater contracts and they were pretty depressing.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: They were pretty sad.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: And what I wanted to say about that is when you are in New York City and you were a non-union dancer specifically.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: And again, with the changes in equity and how you can join, things are slightly different now.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: But it's still, it still, I think, matters that you have to make a decision for yourself is do I want to work?
45:47
SPEAKER_01: And am I okay taking X amount of money to work?
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes, you know, you're not gonna get a job that that pay that ticks all of your boxes.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, we have, does this fill my heart?
45:58
SPEAKER_01: Does this fill my paycheck?
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Does this fill my need to put something on my resume?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Like there's all these things you have to decide, is this worth it for me?
46:05
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, at the time when I was working, I wanted to work.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: And if you were only gonna pay me$350 a week to work, you know what?
46:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna sublet my apartment and I'm gonna do it because I wanted something on my resume and I wanted to work.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Now, was I worth more than that?
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Did I do a much better job than somebody else in the cast who was also getting paid$350 a week?
46:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: But you have to make those decisions.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important for parents to hear too, that like if you don't understand why your child took this job that only pays$350 a week, it's probably because of those other two things, you know?
46:36
SPEAKER_04: I've always heard it's the rule of three, and like you're saying, Leslie, I some one of my mentors like broke it down as like you have to get something from every job that you do, right?
46:46
SPEAKER_04: Um, it could be uh pay is like one of the three.
46:50
SPEAKER_04: So like really great pay.
46:52
SPEAKER_04: Two is like experience working with somebody or doing something that you've never done before, so experience.
46:58
SPEAKER_04: Or the third would be like travel or like life experience, right?
47:03
SPEAKER_04: So you need my mentor, was like, you need two of three.
47:06
SPEAKER_04: You need great money and somebody that you've always wanted to work with, or somebody you've always wanted to work with, no money and a great location, or vice versa.
47:15
SPEAKER_04: So I now I try to do that.
47:17
SPEAKER_04: Like if it's a job that doesn't give me any of those three, for me, right these days, the answer is.
47:22
SPEAKER_04: You gotta go.
47:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
47:23
SPEAKER_04: But as a younger dancer, I was one of three.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: I was like, I'll take one of the three.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:28
SPEAKER_04: But now I now I try to go two of three at least.
47:31
SPEAKER_04: But three of three is, you know, ideal.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: So, Kayleigh Ann, could you tell us a little bit about what other types of jobs there are out in the LA dance scene that might not be those lottery commercials and might not be touring with an artist, but what other jobs come to mind for dancers that are booking all the time like those exact type of jobs?
47:52
SPEAKER_02: What's out there?
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: I think what comes to mind when you're looking at like those daily breakdowns that are coming through on either Actors Access or Casting Networks, otherwise called LA casting, you're seeing a lot of music videos, you're seeing a lot of non-union commercial.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: That's 90% of the commercial seen out here, and there are a lot of commercials filming.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of non-union commercials, which can still pay a fair amount.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: And then there's also television and film.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: And that I would say it feels a little bit more uh exclusive in LA.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: They tend to want to work with Sag Aftra dancers, which can be a tough decision to make as a dancer because for me I work a lot commercially and I work on a lot of non-union commercials.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: And so if I were to join SAGAftra, I would not be able to work on those non-union commercials.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: So that can also be a really difficult decision and something that sometimes parents may have a hard time understanding.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't you join SAGAFTA?
48:44
SPEAKER_00: There's there's healthcare and you could get those TV film jobs, which can secure you, you know, if you're filming on a whole season and dancers are in a few episodes.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know that the one in New York is Marvelous Miss Mazal, and you can really have longevity with that job.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, Good Trouble is a show that filmed out here that used a lot of dancers.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: The Idol used a lot of dancers out here.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: So there's these jobs that can give you that stretch like a tour could, but they want sag after dancers.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: And so that can be sticky.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, you work three of them, and all of a sudden you've got to join the union.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: Um sag fi core is another conversation, and it's something that some people think it's the devil and you should never touch it.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: Other people think it's what you have to do these days to make money.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: And um, I think that that could be a whole other podcast.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: FICOR or no.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's honestly a personal choice.
49:32
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
49:32
SPEAKER_04: Can you say more about that?
49:34
SPEAKER_04: I don't even know what FICOR is.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: So FICOR, I believe, is short for financial core or something of that nature.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: FICOR means that you are essentially one foot in and one foot out of the union.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh old school, old school casting directors, uh perhaps even choreographers and people who are like old school agents and things will say, no, I don't want to sign you if you're FICOR, I don't want to look at you if you're FICOR, I'm not calling you in.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: But I have heard that since COVID, that has changed significantly because a lot of people can't afford to continue to pay their SAG dues.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: And so the tune has changed among casting directors, especially in LA.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: FICOR is not as stigmatized as it might be in New York.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you essentially lose the right to, I think, be nominated for like a SAG award or like an Academy Award.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you lose the right to healthcare, you lose screeners, but you're a lot you're given the same status as being a SAG actor or dancer.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you can work on SAG projects with the same protections and you can call yourself SAG kind of, and you can also work on non-union without breaking rules.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: That actually sounds like the best of both ways.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: I know, right?
50:44
SPEAKER_01: Like I just don't have these expectations for these jobs, and I understand that, and that's fine.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm very pro-FICOR, but some people believe that it's working against what the union is trying to do, and I also really respect that view.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really tough when the breakdown of commercial work and dance work is what it is.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: I think as dancers, it's really hard to justify the cost of your SAG do.
51:05
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: So my reality is I I, you know, I am someone that would support FICOR, but I also know that that's kind of a hot take.
51:13
SPEAKER_04: I'm also in the place now where I'm I work as a choreographer a lot, and I'm thinking of joining SDC, which is Stage Directors and Choreographers Union.
51:22
SPEAKER_04: But it's another union with similar dues and similar working dues, and like there's like a fee to join.
51:28
SPEAKER_04: I think right now SDC is a little bit above$2,000 to join initially, and then you pay like$284 a year plus your working dues.
51:37
SPEAKER_04: But I've heard I'm doing research now because do I want to belong to two unions?
51:42
SPEAKER_04: Do I want to belong to equity and do I want to belong to SDC?
51:45
SPEAKER_04: But it would yeah, I'm I'm now in that boat of like seeing if that's useful to me or not.
51:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:52
SPEAKER_04: But I anyway, I'm gonna stop talking.
51:54
SPEAKER_04: But that's that's something that I'm dealing with right now.
51:57
SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's it's tough to to figure out because it use it on paper can look so black and white.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, of course, I want to work to get my SAG card and then I want to be in the union.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Hello.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: That is the goal.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: I get protected, I get this certain pay that's guaranteed, and and I'm taken care of, and I get hazard pay and whatever, but but then you look at, well, I actually like I need to get stuff on my resume, I need to be able to actually work.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think you guys mentioned, like, oh, getting into equity is not as tough as it used to be.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: And I would say it's the same thing with SAG.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: I know people you can work as an extra, which not to say that extra work is not legitimate work, but if you're going in to try to get a um television film agent off of the fact that, well, I'm SAG, they're gonna look at you and say, What did you do to get your SAG card?
52:41
SPEAKER_00: I stood on the mark and I walked over here.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like unfortunately, when they're looking at that, they're gonna say, Oh, you don't actually don't have enough credit.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: And then without that agent behind you, or without at least one co-star credit acting on TV or being a principal dancer in a show, all of a sudden you're in the big leagues with the big dogs without a resume and experience, or maybe even knowledge of the space to stand your own.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: So while SAG After is always a good goal to have in mind if it aligns with what you want to do, it's not necessarily the key to winning the lottery or winning that success.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: And you can also work on those SAG commercials and get that Super Bowl commercial or that big SAG commercial while being non-union.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
53:22
SPEAKER_02: So it's I'm non-union out of the I did a commercial as a SAG performer.
53:26
SPEAKER_04: You got a waiver.
53:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
53:27
SPEAKER_04: I've done those too.
53:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
53:28
SPEAKER_04: But and there's a loophole here.
53:30
SPEAKER_04: I know this is turning into like a union discussion, but like it's what to do with the pay scale that it's almost impossible not to talk about it.
53:37
SPEAKER_04: But dance companies are the, at least in New York, often the loophole.
53:43
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
53:44
SPEAKER_04: So you can like, and and shows that are dance-based.
53:48
SPEAKER_04: So if you're talking about sleep no more in New York City, for example, huge like dance show based on the Scottish play.
53:56
SPEAKER_04: Can we say it?
53:57
SPEAKER_04: We're not in a theater.
53:58
SPEAKER_04: We're not in a theater.
53:58
SPEAKER_04: There you go.
53:59
SPEAKER_04: Shakespeare's Met Bath.
54:00
SPEAKER_04: Um, don't listen to this in a theater, guys.
54:02
SPEAKER_04: Don't listen to this in the theater.
54:03
SPEAKER_04: Bad luck if you don't know that superstition.
54:05
SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah, so if you're in Sleep No More, which is a dance-based show, it's it's halfway between, I'd say, theater and concert dance, and I love it so much.
54:14
SPEAKER_04: And a lot of per people I went to school with like ended up in that show.
54:17
SPEAKER_04: One of my best friends was in that show for 10 years, and I could talk about that payscale, but they're neither equity or SAG or AGVA or anything.
54:26
SPEAKER_04: They are not controlled by a union.
54:28
SPEAKER_04: And how they how the producers did that is like a little bit, I think, under scrutiny.
54:34
SPEAKER_04: Like sh the question is, should it be allowed that they are no union at all?
54:39
SPEAKER_04: And it's a good question.
54:41
SPEAKER_04: But dance companies too don't necessarily have union.
54:44
SPEAKER_04: So whether you are equity or non-equity, you can join one of these shows.
54:48
SPEAKER_04: And the pay, comparatively, is a little bit less than a like equity rate would be.
54:56
SPEAKER_04: There are not the same protections, there are not the same breaks guaranteed.
54:59
SPEAKER_04: This goes like dance companies in general.
55:01
SPEAKER_04: Um, one of the reasons I like switched over to theater and now do a lot of theater is I was working for a number of modern dance companies in New York, small ones, and I wasn't getting breaks.
55:11
SPEAKER_04: Like I would reverse for four hours in a row and say, Can I use the bathroom?
55:14
SPEAKER_04: And they're like, No, you can't.
55:16
SPEAKER_04: We're like running it again.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: No protection.
55:18
SPEAKER_04: And then no protection, no health care.
55:20
SPEAKER_04: I got injured, I dislocated my knee, and like I had to pay out of pocket to like go to the hospital because I didn't have healthcare at the time, you know, all this, all these shenanigans.
55:29
SPEAKER_04: And when I transferred over to theater, I was like, oh my gosh, we get a break five minutes every hour or 10 minutes every hour and a half.
55:37
SPEAKER_04: And like they're serious about it.
55:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I can use the bathroom.
55:41
SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh, I get healthcare.
55:43
SPEAKER_04: I get workers' comp if I get injured on the job.
55:45
SPEAKER_04: Like those protections are different world.
55:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: Can you speak on the company side?
55:51
SPEAKER_02: Like when you were doing the modern dance companies, I mean, what's a general we because I I do think it's important for our listeners to hear because let's be real, and we all know this as competition judges, contemporaries ruling the world, and everyone wants to dance contemporary.
56:05
SPEAKER_02: Can you make it as a contemporary dancer and a modern dancer in the professional world?
56:11
SPEAKER_02: And what's that salary look like?
56:13
SPEAKER_04: Well, I can only speak to my experience, but I do have some friends, like I have some friends that dance for Mark Morris, which, if you don't know, is like a really well-regarded modern dance company in Brooklyn.
56:25
SPEAKER_04: They make, uh, if you're a full-time company member, you make a living wage.
56:31
SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to remember what my friends have told me, but Ballpark.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, as in, that's the job they have and they don't do anything else.
56:38
SPEAKER_04: Well, here's the thing.
56:40
SPEAKER_04: When you're you're contracted with a modern dance company, often you are also required to teach classes.
56:46
SPEAKER_04: Um, there's usually community outreach involved.
56:48
SPEAKER_04: So I know my friend who worked for Ryary Woodbury in Utah, also huge, like wonderfully beautiful, well-regarded modern dance company.
56:58
SPEAKER_04: He was required when they were on tour to teach community dance classes.
57:02
SPEAKER_04: Like that was part of his salary.
57:04
SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't just that he was a performer.
57:06
SPEAKER_04: He also had to teach, he also had to do QA, and that's part of his contract.
57:10
SPEAKER_04: I wanna say, I I don't want to get this wrong because it's been so long since I've been in that scene, but I wanna say like a thousand dollars a week, maybe, maybe a little less.
57:20
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
57:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, sometimes that comes with healthcare, sometimes that doesn't, but I had this really interesting discussion with some young dancers, which is like if if you're not part of a like well-funded modern dance company or even ballet company, right?
57:33
SPEAKER_04: I danced for a very small ballet company in Georgia right out of school.
57:37
SPEAKER_04: And I was getting paid, you know, maybe$300 a week.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: When you were like quote unquote in season, right?
57:44
SPEAKER_01: That wasn't the whole year.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: That was first three months or whatever you were.
57:48
SPEAKER_04: And it really depends.
57:50
SPEAKER_04: And I've I was in this dance company that I only got paid per show.
57:53
SPEAKER_04: So we would rehearse, you know, five days a week.
57:56
SPEAKER_04: And then we had a show and I'd get paid like$100 a show.
58:00
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
58:01
SPEAKER_04: And but that show only came around, you know, we did five performances for the month of November and then four performances for the month of January.
58:09
SPEAKER_04: Like it was not by any means, it was commission-based.
58:12
SPEAKER_04: So because there really aren't rules governing dance company work, it's kind of a free-for-all.
58:17
SPEAKER_04: At least that was my experience.
58:19
SPEAKER_04: And maybe other people ballet companies are different.
58:21
SPEAKER_04: Like if you're part of Alvinelli or you're part of American Ballet Theater, or you're uh part of City Ballet, like to me, those are the jobs that you don't have to do anything else.
58:32
SPEAKER_04: You can just concentrate.
58:33
SPEAKER_04: But most modern or concert dancers will be required.
58:37
SPEAKER_02: You'll also have another job, you'll be teaching and doing work like survive off of 300, 500,$600 in New York City and get food.
58:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
58:48
SPEAKER_04: And and I was doing like I was dancing for three companies and teaching dance five days a week at a local studio.
58:54
SPEAKER_04: And I was barely making rent.
58:56
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, this is crazy.
58:58
SPEAKER_04: And then I ended up working for Disney and I was like, oh, this is way better.
59:01
SPEAKER_04: Let me do more of this.
59:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
59:03
SPEAKER_04: And that's kind of how I ended up.
59:04
SPEAKER_04: I never thought I was gonna be in the theatrical scene.
59:07
SPEAKER_04: I thought I was gonna be a concert dancer.
59:15
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1:00:55
SPEAKER_01: What are the sort of like one-off gigs, side gigs that people get as dancers to still dance, but maybe it's not necessarily what we're thinking of as a contract?
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: I think like promotional live events, maybe you're not at the event being a backup dancer for the performer, but maybe you're at the event, I know this happens a lot around New Year's time.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: You're perhaps atmosphere.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you are on a platform doing kind of like soft magical movement and you've got feathers tied to you or something like that.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: You're not necessarily, and maybe there's no choreography, like maybe you're just freestyling for four hours.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, but promotional events like that, or maybe I don't know, I'm trying to think if a a water company wanted to have an event and they wanted people dressed like dewdrops dancing around the event.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: I know I did a ha I worked at the holiday party for SpaceX.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, and they had me dressed in a like an astronaut suit and I did a flash mom.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, like that wasn't, I wouldn't say like, oh, I, you know, like we performed at the stadium where whatever, but I wouldn't say like I danced at that stadium like I would for an artist.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: So it is a little bit different, but can still be like that's a one-off game.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: Usually there's no rehearsal or there's very little rehearsal.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_00: Another thing is um choreography and movement direction.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, movement direction is actually something that I've like recently kind of been diving into, and that doesn't necessarily mean choreography.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it can, but it doesn't always.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: For example, if there's a commercial happening and they are hiring a model, and some models have incredible movement, others of them, it's just not their nature.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: They're not used to moving or they don't know what it looks and feels like when they move.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: So you're there as kind of a movement expert to help them figure out how to look natural on camera.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: So those can be another one-off gig thing that can come up.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: Another thing that's really popular is fitness instruction.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: You can teach Zumba, you can teach uh hip-hop fitness, jazz fitness, things like that.
1:02:51
SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of dancers that also do that sort of work.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: I also like work in production behind the scenes, those are great because you don't have to commit to a nine to five.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's why I left working at an agency as a survival job because I couldn't keep up with such a consistent schedule and also go on tour and things like that.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_00: But with production work, you could be a production assistant or I've um an associate producer.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: Things like that are a lot easier than you think to dive into because there are a lot of production companies out here, and a lot of the skills that we have as dancers actually really align with what they tend to need behind the scenes at productions, and it's a great way to get on set experience.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: If you've never been on a set before, work as a PA.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: It's really, really great experience that you can know, like, okay, and who knows?
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: You may make a connection with those producers, and next time they have a commercial that needs dancers, maybe you're the first person they call.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's a great kind of dual way to do that.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: I brought that up just because I, you know, I think people that are dancers want to utilize their skills that they already have in between the long contracts and everything.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: And so some of the things that I know in New York are very popular are like bar and bot mitzvah party starters.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_01: Like that is an excellent quick dance-related gig that you're gonna get paid three, five hundred dollars for the night.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: You learn a little bit of choreography, you hang out with the kids, you teach them, you know, fun dances.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_04: I've gotten paid even more for bar bot mitzvah.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_04: Like nice.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_04: I left, I remember I did one years ago.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_04: I got$800 and I got tipped$200.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_04: Yes!
1:04:21
SPEAKER_02: That's it right there.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: That's the and that and when we say like some of these jobs as dancers aren't easy, well, that's easy.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: Like go do the bar mitzvah thing because that's$800 in your pocket where you just got to like do the electric slide.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna change your life, but you might meet some and like might meet some great people in the process.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_02: You might make connections, you will get a little chunk of change in your pocket, and you can go have a nice dinner and pay your rent.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_04: Like, and you know what else pays really well as a survival job?
1:04:48
SPEAKER_04: Working for dance competition.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_04: Wow!
1:04:51
SPEAKER_02: That's and that's also yes, we we love a dance competition over here at Impact Dance Adjudicators and making the impact.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: So a lot, I'm sure for our listeners, a lot of your judges are either previous or current professional dancers who might be in between gigs or might be actively auditioning, but they can slip away for the weekend and come judge your dancers.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_02: Like it is a really great survival job to break into the industry, but it does require a lot of expertise.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_02: So if you think you're, you know, 19 years old coming to Los Angeles and think you're gonna sit in the judging panel, probably not happening for a few years.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_02: We need a little bit more experience under your belt.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: You need to be actively teaching, you have to be have some credits, you know, things like that.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_04: So though I will say what I did, and Leslie, you worked for MYCDA.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_04: MYCDA, while I was in college, I worked backstage for them.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_04: I would, you know, pull curtain, I would do trophies, and like I mean, that organization like really helped me out.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_04: And so when I first graduated college, I was able to travel with and I worked for on stage New York as well.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_04: So I was able to do that on the weekends and then audition during the week.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_04: And that was that.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_04: That was a good survival job for me as well.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_01: So those are just some some of the opportunities that there are.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_01: There's one of the best paying jobs out there, honestly, and it's not the most glamorous.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_01: And I absolutely did not want to do it for a very long time.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_01: It's costume character work.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: Because when you put on that head and you put on that body, you are you're working.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: It's not that it's easy because you're in a 50-pound costume trying to be Elmo and like, you know, have a great time, but it pays really well because they know how hard it is.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_01: And those companies like Sesame Street, like PBS, like any of those, any of those things you see across the country, they pay really well because they know how hard you're working.
1:06:37
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if you are a very tall person, a lot of times you're very in demand for some character work.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_01: A very short person, you're in demand.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, yes, you're middle-range people, but a lot of times they're really, really seeking people who can fit those costumes and can do quote unquote Sesame Street for adults.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_01: You have to be big, you have to be excited, you have to be, you know, animated in this costume.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, it's not the most glamorous work out there, but it actually pays really well.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: So if you're really just thinking about your paycheck, that's a thing you could do.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_04: Also TYA work.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_04: Theater for young audiences, usually touring.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_04: I got my equity card doing a TYA contract and geared towards young audiences, often supported by local organizations.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, you perform for a lot of kids, and you know, sometimes you're teaching them lessons about life and not bullying and things like that.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_04: But it's it's a nice way to uh make some money and travel and you know, uh interact with a lot of like young theater goers, which is kind of magical.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_04: Watching some kids see theater for the first time is is kind of lovely, you know.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: As we're sitting here and and seeing like how this conversation evolved, I feel like that this is just like a general chat of pay rates and unions and survival jobs and working as a professional in the industry type of chat.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: And as we're talking about it, I'm like, oh my God, there's so much more to say.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_02: But I almost think that for our listeners, we're I would love to do some more spin-offs of this, where it's let's just focus strictly on the New York dance scene, let's focus strictly on the Los Angeles dance scene, let's focus strictly on cruise ship, just on Broadway.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we can like literally like slice this down and speak on an hour about just those things.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_02: And definitely I think we should do an a union versus non-union to dive into that even more, as well as an entire episode on survival jobs, I think needs to happen too.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_02: So, like this is just a nice little overview of like you got a little glimpse into what it's like to be a working professional.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_02: And one other thing I just want to mention that we've kind of talked about, um, just to kind of wrap this up for all of our listeners out there for clarity purposes, is that as we mentioned, you have to audition to get all of these jobs that we've talked about.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that is a requirement.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_02: You don't just hand a resume and get hired.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_02: You usually have to audition and network and have the right connections and have the right experience.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_02: But a lot, if not all, majority of these jobs will come to an end because they're contract-based.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_02: So, like we said, unless you get that pink card Broadway show, unless you're in Cirque du Soleil that's never closing, unless you are in a TV show as a series regular that's not going anywhere, then you probably are doing this for a very short period of time within maybe a three-week contract to a six-month contract to a one-month contract to a year contract, maybe two years if you're lucky.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_02: But most of the time, dancers have to actively continue to seek work.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_02: I just want to make sure that everyone understands that because you know, you might think you're in with this company and your contract's over and they don't rehire you.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: That's how it can work.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_02: Or you might get in with this company.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_02: There are people who have worked for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines for 10 plus years because they love it and they just keep getting rehired, rehired, rehired.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_02: And that's great if that's what you love to do, if that's what you want to do and get in.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: But like those types of like long-term jobs aren't always there in the dance world.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_02: So I just want to reiterate that to everybody because there you can get paid good money to be a performer and entertainer in this world, but it might come and go and come and go and come and go.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_04: And the trickiest thing about it is you have to reprove yourself every time.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_04: Like I mean, I think people say to an extent, right?
1:10:23
SPEAKER_04: You build up a resume and you're like, look at all these things I've done.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_04: So now I'm on a different tier, I'm on a different level.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_04: You should be able to hire me without me auditioning.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_04: That's not usually the case.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_04: There is something called offer only, but you know, Sutton Foster is offer-only.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_04: I I am not offer-only.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_04: But uh uh that means you are hired sight unseen because people know your work.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_04: But the the tricky part for me, especially as I've gotten older in the industry, is having to prove myself again and again and again, even after you just got off of a contract saying, Oh, look, I already know this show.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_04: I can do this show again because I've already done it.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_04: I just showed you it that I could do it well for six months.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_04: Can you hire me again to do the show?
1:11:03
SPEAKER_04: And the answer isn't always yes.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_04: You're now against a new pool of people.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_04: And that's the struggle for me.
1:11:10
SPEAKER_04: I wish that it could be like, ah, look at my resume, just like a normal job.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_04: See, I have experience, hire me now.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_01: I didn't call a reference, but that's it.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_01: I know.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's funny too, because a lot of times, like you said, you're having to prove yourself time and time again.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_00: And if we were in that corporate setting, that resume would do would do the talking.
1:11:29
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps there would be an interview, but it probably wouldn't be as grueling as our audition processes.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_00: You're being asked to kind of reshow the same skills over and over.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_00: And what's funny is not all the time, but sometimes, and I would say it happens a lot, unfortunately, in LA, but you could go to an audition not knowing what the pay for that job is, but just knowing that that name is flashy.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_00: And it's so funny because I talk to my non-dance friends and family, and they'll say, I would never go in for a job interview and waste my time if I did not know what I was getting paid, and I didn't have clarity on what the position is.
1:12:01
SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes you go to these open calls for these tours, and all you know is the artist is really famous.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: What does the tour look like?
1:12:07
SPEAKER_00: What's really the style of dance?
1:12:09
SPEAKER_00: What cities are you going to do?
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: How long am I on stage?
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how long?
1:12:12
SPEAKER_00: And and also, like, just because you got the yes in the room, you could get to rehearsal and be fired.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you don't get, you know, the money that you thought you were gonna get, right?
1:12:22
SPEAKER_00: You you book the tour and you say yes.
1:12:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you find out you're gonna make X amount of money, you plan your life around that amount of money, and then oh, you get fired mid-rehearsal process because they didn't like XYZ, or the artist comes in and says, she's not the right fit.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_00: So it's also like we don't know what we're we don't know what we're getting paid.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_00: It's not guaranteed.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_00: Even when you get the yes, it's not a yes until the job is completely done.
1:12:42
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_04: I don't trust any any contract I get until I'm walking into rehearsal on day one.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_04: Like I assume that this job is gonna produce decide.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_04: It's gonna deteriorate people decide that like we're not gonna produce the show actually.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't believe it until I'm walking into the stage door and then I believe it.
1:13:01
SPEAKER_02: I usually say, like, my rule of thumb, like, I mean, I I'm the same way, but especially for anyone out there and for dancers who are breaking into the industry, do not announce anything that you might have quote unquote booked until you have signed a contract or are walking into that first day of the job.
1:13:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, and there are a lot of times where you're not even able to say what you are working on.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of NDAs and things, NDAs and things.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: So making sure that you read your contract, don't get too excited too quickly and tell the world that you're doing something before you actually can tell them.
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: And make sure you know what you're getting paid and what you're signing up for before you say yes to anything.
1:13:36
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yes.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_04: Read your contract.
1:13:39
SPEAKER_04: Please read your contract.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_04: Ah, I have so many horror stories.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure you do too, Kaylee Ann.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_00: It's just like I think too, like there's this narrative around like, and maybe like friends and family who aren't as knowledgeable about what it really takes to be a dancer.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: People will kind of make you believe that, like, you know, dancers aren't lawyers, dancers aren't this.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_00: We're smart, and we have the ability to read that contract, to stand our ground, ask if you don't know, it's okay to not know, but like dancers are smart, and I refuse to let people, you know, tell us, well, you, you know, you wouldn't know.
1:14:10
SPEAKER_00: That's why you're getting, you know, screwed over on this contract or whatnot.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, I, you know, and don't let someone say, That's not what that says.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is, and stand your ground because people like to think they can pull fast ones.
1:14:21
SPEAKER_00: But as the we had a a speaker once say at my school, the smartest people in the room are dancers because they have to think quick and they're put under a lot of pressure and expected to perform like they're not.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_00: So read the contract and also stand your ground.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_04: I love your soap.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_04: And yeah.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_04: The thing that I'm I'm realizing the older I get, I used to think that like, oh, if I didn't say yes to everything they wanted me to say yes to, then I lose the job.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_04: Yes, that could happen.
1:14:46
SPEAKER_04: And like maybe that's a job better lost if if they're gonna deny you like the rights you know you deserve, then maybe that's not a job that you need to take.
1:14:56
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm I'm getting better at saying no.
1:14:58
SPEAKER_04: It's a pretty powerful thing.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_04: And when you're young and you're hungry, you're like, I'll say yes to everything.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_04: Don't say yes to everything.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_04: Say yes to the things that are worth your time.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_00: Is maybe my advice.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great advice.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: And it also puts you in kind of that that I don't want to say better or worse because it's not that, but by saying no, sometimes you kind of put yourself that next step above, saying, Oh, I actually, I I know I'm not gonna call Ashley uh for this job.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna call her for this job because I actually, you know, she she may not go for this this job that's 150 a week, but I know I could actually save her for this job that's 700 a week.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_00: Because I know that that's more her her speed.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_00: And so you can sometimes weed out the jobs you don't want to do by saying no to one that doesn't really fit your your sting.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_02: Great advice.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, y'all, this was a great chat.
1:15:44
SPEAKER_02: I hope that all of our listeners learned a little bit of something as to what it looks like to be a professional in the industry.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of different avenues that your dancer can go into.
1:15:54
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of different side hustle and survival jobs that they can jump into that are still within the world of dance.
1:16:01
SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna have so many more chats.
1:16:04
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait because we could just talk about this all day, obviously.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's just so much to say about it, and we've all lived through beautiful careers.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_02: So uh thank you to our fabulous guests, Kaylee Ann and Ashley, for joining us today on this chat.
1:16:19
SPEAKER_02: You shared so much great advice to all of the listeners out there, the dance world, aspiring professionals, parents of aspiring professionals, and how all of our guests always lead us out on making the impact, leading us out with one final thought on the topic today.
1:16:33
SPEAKER_02: And it can be a little bit of advice, it could be guidance or something that you've learned throughout your career that you want to share, something you wish you knew before you broke into the professional world, whoever you'd like to speak to regarding pay rates in the dance world.
1:16:47
SPEAKER_04: Maybe I'll say that as a dancer, you have worth and you deserve to be paid.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_04: A mentor of mine always says you're not always being paid for the job you're currently doing, you're also being paid for the years of training that went into getting you to the place you are now.
1:17:03
SPEAKER_04: So never say, oh, well, I only did four counts of eight.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_04: I don't need this amount of money.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_04: Well, you spent 20 years learning how to do those eight counts of eight.
1:17:12
SPEAKER_04: So you are worth the salary that you're getting and you should fight to have a livable wage as a dancer.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't agree more.
1:17:19
SPEAKER_00: I would say, and this may be like a little bit counterintuitive to what we've been saying, right?
1:17:23
SPEAKER_00: We had that little moment where we were kind of discussing like, you better really want to do it.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, don't do this if you're only one foot in, one foot out.
1:17:30
SPEAKER_00: But I also want to like flip that narrative and say, like, you can do it.
1:17:34
SPEAKER_00: It is hard.
1:17:35
SPEAKER_00: You sometimes need more than just two survival, you know, your dance job and a survival job.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you need more survival jobs than you have dance jobs.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, that often can be the case.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_00: But it's also it is possible to make money as an artist, as a performer.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_00: And don't let someone who maybe doesn't have as much knowledge of the dance industry, a parent or a teacher or a friend that may not know what it is to work as an artist, don't let them scare you out of pursuing your passion.
1:18:01
SPEAKER_00: If it's really what you want to do, there's money to be made.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_00: There is space in the industry for you, there is a job for everyone.
1:18:07
SPEAKER_00: And you may need a couple survival jobs to make it happen, but you can do it.
1:18:10
SPEAKER_00: And working as a performer is a job.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_00: It is a career, and it is valid just as much as a corporate job.
1:18:18
SPEAKER_02: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about pay rates in the professional dance industry.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_02: Shout out to our special guests and IDA Dodas for joining us on this chat.
1:18:28
SPEAKER_02: You can find Kaylee Ann on Instagram at underscore Kayleigh Ann underscore and Ashley at ALM433.
1:18:37
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1:18:44
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1:18:50
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1:18:59
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1:19:06
SPEAKER_02: Be sure to check out IDA affiliated competition Star Talent.
1:19:10
SPEAKER_02: Star Talent will be celebrating their 18th season in 2024.
1:19:14
SPEAKER_02: They are thrilled to continue to work with Impact Dance Adjudicators by having IDA judges on all of their judging panels.
1:19:20
SPEAKER_02: Star Talent holds events in West Virginia, Tennessee, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.
1:19:27
SPEAKER_02: And their national finals will take place in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, June 19th through 23rd, 2024.
1:19:34
SPEAKER_02: Their program was created to provide a positive dance environment for both recreational and competitive dancers.
1:19:40
SPEAKER_02: Their goal is to offer an atmosphere that is fun, organized, and fair for your dancers, teachers, and parents.
1:19:46
SPEAKER_02: StarTalent believes that competition is about becoming the best dancer that you can be in performance and attitude.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_02: Awards are presented by category and divisions, and high score awards are separated by three levels.
1:19:57
SPEAKER_02: To learn more about Star Talent and to register for an upcoming event in their 2024 season, visit their website at StarTalent Productions.com or check out their Facebook and Instagram at Star Talent Productions.
1:20:10
SPEAKER_01: Coming up in the next few weeks on Making the Impact, look forward to competitions versus convention competitions, continuing education for teachers, and duo trios.
1:20:20
SPEAKER_02: We hope your dance season is going great.
1:20:22
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for tuning in week after week.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next week.
1:20:25
SPEAKER_02: Until then, keep dancing.