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Recipe For Renewal - A Divorced Dad's Survival Guide · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation, and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: These are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce, or reorganizing life afterwards.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warrantry people of the cooling nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this week's episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Deliberate, where I share a conversation with Chris Gillard, dad chef, artist, entrepreneur, and now author.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Five years ago, Chris found himself suddenly separated, no job, no money, no home, and two little girls to look after every second week.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And had to find very quickly a solution.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: This conversation and Chris's book, The Divorced Man's Kitchen Survival Guide, a powerful recipe to recover, renew, and rebuild a new you is about his story, which he shares to help others, especially men and fathers who may find themselves in a similar situation, to bounce back, better, stronger, more resilient, and more confident than ever after separation and divorce.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Buckle up, it's a pretty long conversation, so you might want to split it across a couple of listens.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Chris Gillard.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Chris.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thanks, Sally Anne.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're so welcome.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really keen for you to share your story with the listeners.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess to kick off, you're a man who's worn many hats.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Chef, dad, entrepreneur, writer.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me which of those hats are you currently wearing?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I wear them all still.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so my first career was chef.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was a chef for seven years.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um I started cooking when I was a little kid, um, just out of necessity, uh, because mum got home late, and you know, I was from divorced parents.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I put my hand up to start cooking.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I've always been interested in cooking.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I became a chef.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, following that, I became a professional photographer.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, another thing I started when I was little.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I got into communications and advertising brand development and software development as well.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I got into advertising for about eight years, which I kind of considered my apprenticeship.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started another company um that kind of combined software developers with creative people to make digital um assets and brands for anybody who wanted one.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we're kind of like a startup that was called Project Project, that business.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a startup that made startups.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was lucky timing, that was around 2008, 2009, just on the cusp of the Apple App Store.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I had these tech guys.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not a tech guy, I don't do coding, but I just wanted to have those types of resources in the company.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, we the app store started, and uh I had these dudes and we started making apps before most people in Australia.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um so and now I've got a VR education company uh and an innovation agency as well.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so tell me, tell me what your book is called and how you actually came to write this book.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's called The Divorced Man's Kitchen Survival Guide.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's a little bit of a story behind it.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend a few years ago, uh really good friend, who got diagnosed with cancer.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he was just a dude, you know, like a lot of guys, and didn't really have much um kind of knowledge of how to cook at all.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I had that knowledge, so I thought one way I can help him is to develop a menu uh around the alkaline diet.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if people know about that, but it's uh, you know, it's it's taking all the acidic stuff out of your body and putting in alkaline things, which are better for you.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I made some recipes up.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I taught him how to do that to do those things in his in his house.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um he's still, I think he still makes listings every day.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it just was really beneficial for him.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, very simple stuff like this, like is in the book, which I guess we'll talk about later.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, just very simple recipes that were healthy and easy to make for a person who's busy and totally stressed.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's got you know kids as well, so it's really, really tough when people are going through that.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I did what I could.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of part one.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of sitting in the back of my head.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Then, like a few months ago, I found this thing online where you could like write a 5,000-word book in seven days, seven-day challenge.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought I'm gonna do that because I was thinking of journalizing my own kind of divorce journey anyway.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I started doing that and kind of thinking maybe guys like my friend, um, divorced men might need the same kind of help in the kitchen.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought I'll do a few recipes and stuff and write a bit of a journey story.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it became like this 40,000-word thing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, massive, like an actual book.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm a writer too.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in that communications uh thing I was telling you, I'm I'm a writer and art director, so it's a natural thing for me to write.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, it's just it became this really big thing, and I told this whole story, and I kind of realized that there were ingredients in my story that uh were kind of um by chance, like chancy, almost serendipity.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I was a kid, my mom got me a shirt that said serendipity because all these things just kind of happened to me.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's really weird.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's always happened through my life.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, in the journey after I got separated, just several things slotted in one after the other.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I realized later as I was writing, it kind of formed this recipe to create a new me.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was doing it on the run.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't really even that conscious.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I was just doing what I thought I should do in the moment, and then things happened as well.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so I realized, wow, I've got this recipe, plus I can make actual recipes for dudes.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll put both those things in and see if anyone likes the story.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I like the story.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I liked the story.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to share a little bit of your of the story?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I I kind of if you want me to, I can go into the reasons why the the separation all that happened.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I got that moment that that all the guys get, which is you know, I want to divorce that phrase you just don't want to ever hear.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think you're ever gonna hear it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which just you know, you've I think I probably just all the blood drained out of me and I just wanted to die.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I've got kids as well, like you know, and and I came from a divorced family, and I and I swore to myself when I was little that that would never happen to me.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was kind of shocking.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: There were circumstances, financial circumstances.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: That company I was telling about before we sold it, I sold it to legitimately through the commercial laws and everything, did everything right, but the guys were frauds who bought the company.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, we just lost everything, and that kind of stress led to that moment.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's other things as well, like there's complexities, nothing's like black and white.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's always layers, right?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's always other layers that that happen because of things and all that, but essentially that's kind of what happened.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of stress on the family.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so then I I didn't have a job.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I kind of explained this in a book a little bit.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I quit my job because I was like, oh, okay, I'll quit my job because she doesn't like me doing this.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Straight away I quit the job immediately as soon as she I got on the phone, like seconds later, and quit.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I didn't have any money, I'd quit my job.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there was no kind of no point me doing that job anyway, like after she um had said she wanted a divorce because you know, I kind of needed her help, you know, as a partner to do that thing.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was a startup.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I hadn't didn't have a job, didn't have any money, um, and didn't have a home because she wanted me out.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's just a weird thing.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I had two girls that I needed to look after every second week as well.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was kind of the conversation.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was out with nothing, not even any savings.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I put every I'd lost everything a couple of years earlier, and you know, I was struggling to make all of that back up.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, so I had to think of a solution to put a roof over the kids' heads.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't care where I was gonna go, but I was thinking about them, they had to go to school and stuff.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I started Pet Sitting.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wrote this story like on the profile for this pet sitting website, which was all about some you know, super awesome dad wanting to educate his kids for you know in different environments around Melbourne and give them little adventures and let them learn how to look after different dogs and cats and animals and things.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I wrote this nice story as a writer and put some pretty pictures up about you know, me and my girls, and and people did start responding to that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So this first lady did.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I forget her name, but um anyway, she had this little Jack Russell called Max that we had to look after for three weeks.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: But people don't just go, oh yeah, Chris, that's cool on the phone.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can have a house for three weeks, you've got to go see them.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to go see her.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I knocked on the door of this nice apartment in Clifton Hill in Melbourne, and she answered and she goes, Oh, hi Chris, and she was like German, this very German lady.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they were going overseas for three weeks somewhere.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she said, Oh, come and see her on the couch.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I sat down next to her, she goes, So you're divorced, and like straight away.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And like I I thought, man, I thought my story was really good.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: But she saw straight through it and she's so German about it, you know, like straight away.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so you're a divorce person.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, tell me.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she didn't care.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I thought people would care, you know, who wants a divorce dude um with their kids, you know.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anyway, she didn't care.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing she did was she grabbed my hand, she goes, Oh, come with me.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she introduced me to three single ladies in the apartment block.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Yeah, this is Chris, here we're here for three weeks, look after him.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what is my job here?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what she actually doing?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, she was nice.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: We stayed there for three weeks, and that's how it all started.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so then I had to kind of move from place to place, which is a logistical nightmare.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um because you've got to think about the kids' school and where the school is and where the pet sitting place is, and um, when you've got the kids and when you haven't, and petrol, like I had no money.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my dad's never given me any money ever in my life, no one has given me anything.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: But he started giving me a few hundred dollars.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: He used to rent me all the time, so he was like massive support.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he'd give me just enough to kind of keep going, uh, which is good.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I was looking for.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's all I needed, really.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Just food and because it didn't have other costs, yeah.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, exactly.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just food and petrol, it was great, and plus school fees and whatever, you know, those things.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really beneficial.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I I kind of it was a weird feeling.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't mind it.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's weirdly didn't mind it.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of liked it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I because I like adventure anyway, and it kind of on one side of my brain was this is an adventure, the other side was what the fuck?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, like what the hell?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I thought I had a life, I thought I knew exactly what was going on.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anything.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so rug being pulled out from under you and the idea where you thought your life was headed or the yeah, I mean the story that you'd written for yourself, you know, it's exactly, exactly.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so suddenly, sorry, go ahead.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: What were you gonna say?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna say, um, what's the I was gonna just move us on a bit and say, what do you find is the hardest part of being a single dad?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So and if you can cast your mind back to then that like you felt the rugs being pulled under out from under back then, what was the hardest part?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And compared to now, what's the hardest part?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the hardest part then was being everything for your kids.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's kind of lots of hardest parts in a way, it's like really hard to say which was the hardest.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Another really just gut-wrenching thing that every guy will and and mother as well, and you know, wife, anybody will understand this, is you realize at some point that you're not gonna see your kids for 50% of the time, which is 50% of their lives.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way, like the headline in your head 50% of their lives, you won't see them, and that just kills you.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really, really hard to get your head around because I like spending time with my kids, you know, like every second I like it, you know.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like a chore, you know.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I like going out and doing stuff with them, helping with the homework, whatever.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I'm I'm not like a super person, like I lose patience like everybody and stuff, but I like all those things.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh that was really difficult.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then just being the mum and the dad at the same time, like kind of getting those, adapting to those roles.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Was uh, you know, like being more emotionally aware of them and the way they were feeling.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Five and nine, I think they were.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and then having to be motherly in some ways, you know, like kind of tapping into that um part of my person more and like activating that more.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was pretty tough, but um, but really rewarding as well.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, doing that successfully gets you really close to your kids.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I never said anything bad about their mum or anything like that.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I didn't kind of put any of those messages into their heads at all.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were very, very accepting of the whole situation.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was amazing.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, there was no there was no um, you know, bitching to me about it or anything.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: They were just very stoic, like, yeah, this is what we're doing.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: We we're taking Max for a walk now because he's the dog we've got for three weeks, you know.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's another dog, and then there's a canary, there's a lizard the next week, whatever it is, uh alpaca.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like they they accepted it pretty well.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and what about now?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: What do you find's the hardest thing about being a single dad?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: A divorce, let's call it divorced dad, because I know you reap that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the hardest thing now is kind of, yeah, just it's again, it's still the same thing, missing those moments, you know, that you kind of know are critical moments, you know, like your daughter might be in this sports thing you can't go to um because and she's won the hundred meters and the eight hundred meters, like Willow did last week.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's pretty cool.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Those little moments that they're so important.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's kind of still that idea of missing the time with them.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: But we're lucky with technology, right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: We've got FaceTime, we've got texting, we've I can hassle the hell out of them all the time.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, stop, just stop.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Until they until they clue on and just ignore you.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um every every uh every notification is notification has been silenced, so it's always that now when I send them a text.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want to take you back to the early the early days recently separated.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: What did you commit to back then to get through if anything, you know, what did you commit to, if anything, to get through those those really hard, dark early days?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was I felt like okay, if my identity has to shift so quickly, um, then I'm just gonna consider I have these fundamentals of my identity already.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've got skills, people associate this skills and what they do with who they are.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of since I've been, you know, taking photos and doing cooking since I was little.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've got, okay, that's kind of that's me.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the rest was kind of a blank canvas, and I didn't really have much expectation.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just kind of I just kind of put my faith in the journey.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't really know where it was going.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I and because I couldn't control that, I decided not to worry about it.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just decided not to worry.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna worry about where this is headed.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna take the adventure, take the journey and see what happens.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And meanwhile, as that's happening, I'm gonna do the things I know how to do to try to create something again.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, try to recreate myself, try to create opportunities, get money, get a job, get working.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I committed to probably most of all, committed to not um not allowing negativity to infect me.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you that's really hard because you almost kind of want it to sometimes.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to sit and it's nice to sit and wallow in that sometimes.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Lie on the basket floor or to stick your head under the donut.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It is easy, yeah.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to do that, and it's kind of a it's kind of bittersweet as a feeling, but it's wrong, it's not good for you.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I kind of committed, I guess, to being positive, probably.
• 17:22
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Without being Pollyanna, hey?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say a lot of my male clients, and I'm gonna say probably all of my clients, do experience those moments of deep despair or deep sadness, and then sometimes, you know, that real fierce, fiery anger.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask, so we just touched on it then.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: You do did you experience that?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess what did you do or what did you learn about yourself in those experiences?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of started thinking about the anger as energy.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anger's a lot of energy.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at what people do when they're angry, they've just got heaps of energy like that, you know, in a second.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I started thinking of it as energy that I've got.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I started that's kind of one of the ingredients I was talking about before.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I started turning that and the sadness, any kind of negative energy like that.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the sadness is okay, it's cathartic, you've got to be sad.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the anger I turned into physical exercise.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I act, I turned it into activity, like getting rid of that energy in a positive way.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, what can I do to make myself more attractive now?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm not feeling attractive at all, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: It don't feel like the any anyone has any, you know, you feel you feel like you've just failed everybody, you know you're good.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you look like shit because you're not sleeping and whatever.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna improve the way I look at least, and I'm gonna translate that negative anger and energy into something positive.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna sculpt my body more.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and running, so I started running a lot.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I've already always ran anyway, like a lot through my life.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of natural for me to go towards exercise, but I was doing the exercise specifically to exercise, like an exorcism, that anger.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so and that was really helpful because when you run as a this particular exercise, it for me it's very meditative too.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it clears my mind, it gives you clarity.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I get back, have a shower, whatever, and I'd feel really good.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I haven't got any money, I don't know where I'm going next week.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had you know, nobody's calling me.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's another thing that happens that you kind of no one tells you about.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, all these people that you knew just suddenly aren't there.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's cool.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: You'd think it'd be the other way around, but it's not.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um that kind of plays with your mind a lot.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it those things kind of didn't matter so much.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I had a clear head.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I go and do my shopping for the food and whatever, like do my menu planning, like I knew how to do as an ex-chef.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I do something positive after that as well.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um related to the exercise because it's nutrition.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll go and do some.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a job, so I may as well go shopping smartly.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: If the themes in this episode are resonating with you, if it's bringing up things that you would like to explore on a deeper level with me, you can book a free intro call via the link in the show notes and we can discuss coaching options.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to support you.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to this week's episode.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that leads me to the next part of the conversation I wanted to ask you about.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about inputs.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about the inputs and the importance of inputs for you in your journey, because I think it's really relevant to anybody who's going through something big like separation or divorce.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the inputs idea is, and this occurred to me when I was thinking about meals I should be cooking that could be helpful to the way I think, to my clarity, to my body, to all those things, and also to the girls, like keeping my girls safe, keeping them eating the right foods in a routine, all those kind of things.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I started thinking inputs, we get told about inputs as nutrition, right?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: We get told that you know, don't put this in your mouth because you'll become, you know, ridiculously obese or something, or you'll get diabetes, or you'll die really early anyway, no matter what.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So those are one kind of inputs I started thinking of other inputs too, like the news or socials, um, or other types of inputs which are some kind of energy coming into you, it could be sounds as well, like what people are saying to you, certain people, you know, the vampires who say things and they kind of activate your negative energy rather than your positive energy.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I started looking at all my inputs and and making sure that every input, not just the food inputs and nutrition wise.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or positive inputs.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So just not watching the news is a great thing to do.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: You should try it for like three weeks.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very selective about where I where and when I access news.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh god, the whole concept of news.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I could talk to you for hours about that too.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's propaganda.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not news anymore.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: So get rid of that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Get rid of socials.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: All socials does is show you what someone else wants you to think about them, not about anything that's to do with life.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's simply someone's like, you know, some picture of themselves that they want you to see.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of can be quite negative too, because they're always amazing, doing amazing things.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so get rid of all the negative inputs.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not many people are showing the moment when they're crying on the bathroom floor.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So and then just you know find your people as well, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Get the team that is going to give you the positive inputs.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't need to be a big team.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: A big team, it can be your mum and dad.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine, or your dad or your mum, because one person is good.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just and talk to those people and and they're they're very helpful.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you know whatever words they're saying uh that are getting into your head are positive ones.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you're all the people that talk about you know the past or what you could have done differently, or this or that, um, it's it's kind of all it does is confuse you more, I think.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you've got to look forward, not backwards.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's where I start with all my clients.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: What do you have to look like in five, ten, twenty years' time?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's really focus on on that, regardless of where you are in your separation divorce journey.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking back across your journey, is there anything you wish you'd done more of or differently?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, writing, probably.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because when I wrote this thing, you know, a few months ago, this book, uh, the manuscript, uh, it did feel really good.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so it was quite cathartic.
• 24:02
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe if I'd done it back then, it I would have been able to get rid of a lot of things earlier.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a real task though.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like people who aren't writers probably hate that idea.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna journalize everything, you know, but it's helpful if you can do it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you have to look at your words, it's kind of confronting.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta look at what you've written, you've got to acknowledge things.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And but you know, you know what you can do?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can grab that bit of paper, um, crush it up and burn it.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Just turn it into smoke, and then it's gone, you know, it's out of your head.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So so I wish I'd done more writing as a writer because I think I could have written a much better book uh in the moment.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, but you might have burnt it all.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I probably would have.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would have burnt it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything you would have done differently?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's hard to say.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Probably, probably not.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like on reflection, I probably did in the circumstances.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't I hate it when people say there's nothing I'd change in my life, you know.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I totally would change heaps of things.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But for that particular part of my life, I I think I did probably make the better decisions rather than the worse ones.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um I didn't have a lot of choice, you know.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: But you know where are you gonna stay?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: I had to go kind of find the pet setting solution.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't think I would have changed too much.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you could share a message with dads who are living apart from or sharing care of their kids with their other, you know, their ex-partner, what would that message be?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think one of the first things is is don't don't portray any of your feelings about your ex-partner onto the kids.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Don't push that onto them or project it onto them.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because they're totally separate things and they're very fragile.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all these, you know, whatever you say, your actions, the things you say and do, they can have a real effect on the kids.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when you start talking negatively about the other person, um, if you do, and I never did this, but for this very reason, if you do, it kind of really shakes their world, it makes them anxious, and that's not really fair on them.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'd say just make sure that you keep those kind of thoughts yourself if you have them, um, and if you are getting along well with your partner, that's great.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Emphasize that you're getting on getting along well, you know.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So just show them, tell them that that's happening.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like when we separated um in the first week, I said to my girls, it's okay that this has happened, you know, like it's fine.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: She wants to be happy, she can be happier, and that's okay.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: These kind of things happen, um, and we're still your parents.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you don't have to worry about that.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're still your parents, we're still, you know, all gonna be do doing things together with you.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: It'll just be a little bit different.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but she needs to be happy, and that's the most important thing.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if she wasn't happy with me, that's all right, she can be happy with someone else, and hopefully she will be.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, those kind of conversations are pretty important straight away.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'd all yeah, I'd also say um, you know, maintain contact with your kids when they're not there as much as you can.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that that make helps them feel supported as well, um, so that you're not distant.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's what you know, I just I'm gonna do that anyway, even if even if they block me.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just I'll turn up at their mother's house.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned just through that um last last answering that last question that um you know their mother wasn't happy with you, you hope she can be happy with someone else.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about you because I know that you're repartned.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um what does your family look like now?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh depends on the day, but um, there's seven people in the house, so it's pretty full on.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's me and Susie, that's my partner.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's got three kids, uh, and I've got two who are here every second week.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, there's a lot going on usually.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's four girls.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's like this exact kind of almost four-year gap between all of them.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there's one other, there's one boy, this is Jack.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's the oldest.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's 24.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's it's uh it's not boring, that's for sure.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's uh some serious uh issues in the bathroom with four girls every morning.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um ask you what's the hardest part, and that's one of the hardest parts.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, the hairbrush.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Whose hairbrush is it?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: My God, far out.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is worse than you know, you could start wars over this stuff.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, like that's kind of as bad as it gets.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone pretty much gets along fairly well.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, there's there's still there's probably still like with um Susie's kids, like they're still getting used to the idea of uh me and her together and living with me, and I'm not their dad.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm really different to him as well.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's not easy for them.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there's probably there's gonna be resentment in that situation for everybody uh in any kind of situation like this.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's not really it's kind of probably dissipating over time as well.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not a major thing that everyone's always talking about.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it used to be like early days, a couple of you know, a year or so ago, a couple of years ago.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think living with together for so long, they can't help but like me.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just keep showing up being me, you know?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Keep showing up.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And are you are you able to feed them all at the one time?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like that that's like that's like as as often as you've ever seen sharks mating.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but when it happens, it's good.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I I like I like big family stuff.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these guys have like Argentinian and Italian backgrounds, so there's always lots of people that just rock up and we have dinner with suddenly there's 12 people in the house, and we didn't really expect that, but you know, and that's okay because we got some skills we can cook for everyone.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so getting everyone together at the table is is difficult because of everyone's routines and things.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like sometimes someone's at work, sometimes someone's at soccer, sometimes someone's at volleyball, and someone is also at soccer, then they get back, and then so sometimes it's just like one person comes in the kitchen, we hand them a bowl, they walk away.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Then, like 45 minutes later, two other people walk in, we hand them a bowl, walk away.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: But going and having a like a meal at the table is a very important thing.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of research around it as well.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like for bl for kind of making a cohesive unit happen, it's like very important.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do it as much as you can.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we try to do it as much as we can, but logistically it's hard.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, but yeah, logistically it's hard, but when it does happen, it's good.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh usually, you know, you've got a person who's 10, a person who's 14, a person who's 18, a person who's 22, and a person who's 24, and then me and Susie, and then whoever else has come around.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: The extras.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so the conversations can be quite broad and interesting, um, especially for a 10-year-old sometimes.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it's it's I try to get the family at the table as much as possible.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because in my research around the book, I found out how important that actually is.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just something I like doing as well.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And do they like you cooking?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's another question.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Reluctantly.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, how soon or how early did you introduce Susie to your girls?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a good question.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I worked with her for a bit, and this is so ridiculous.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we decided to have a date, like our first actual date.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, totally low-key kind of date, just on the beach with kids.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: With kids.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So she had her kids who are older, a bit older.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had mine, and plus a little friend of theirs.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I said to my girls, hey, we're just going to the beach with my work colleague today on a Saturday.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, These are little kids.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Yeah, whatevs.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't tell me that, but they'll just roll their eyes like as if.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so anyway, we got there.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't buy your story.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: They did not buy this story.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I didn't readnell this till later, but like they're like chatting about who she is and stuff, and like, you know, whether I should put sunscreen on her back or whatever, just things like that.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I didn't realize they they knew it's just like the profile story for the pet sitting side.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I had my story down and everyone just saw through it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so that was kind of it was impulse.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Kids get it.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they they've got radars, like great radars.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: They were very accepting of the whole idea.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: When we're driving home after that beach thing, they were like, Oh, she's really nice, dad.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: She's a great, she's a really nice work colleague of yours.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe you guys should do more work on Saturdays together at the beach.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, they were very accepting.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: They they really liked her, which really surprised me as well.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Oh, you know, because they've got their mum, and like, what if I'm with another woman?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's gonna be weird for them.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: They were totally cool with it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's great, I couldn't believe it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did work well for you all as you blended?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we went on some road trips together, and that was really cool because we all love traveling, and um, the girls were kind of used to that.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: We'd done that before quite a lot.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know all the places um because of my previous uh startup that I was working in was like a travel destination marketing kind of business.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we traveled to lots of cool places, and I actually went on a work trip with them as well, um, into the Wimmer of Mali.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: That was one of the first road trips we did.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that was cool.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we all kind of jelled together um and got to know each other, but then also there was COVID as well, so we all had to live together every second week, but you know, very confined, and there was no dramas at all around that.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was just a kind of almost a gift.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: COVID lockdowns are awful for heaps of people, but for us it was kind of the inverse of that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite positive in heaps of ways.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we could be with each other and you know, no one's allowed to go anywhere.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what are you gonna do?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: We'll play we'll play some board games together, we'll we'll do some ridiculous things, we'll go on walks and just get to know each other.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think for lots of families it was it it was positive.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, because there's lots of connection built.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even my own.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: We lots more board games and lots more yeah, yeah, small moments of interaction that have had through those through those years.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think the whole idea of the picnic just became massive again.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are we gonna do?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh picnic, you know, that was the only thing anyone could do that was different.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll walk outside into the backyard and put a thing down and have some cheese and salami.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, those that was kind of kind of good for those reasons.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any other tips for blending families or blended blending or blended families?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd say like if you're going to be blending, uh, or you've kind of already started the blended thing, um, get a third party like Sally Ann or a therapist, someone who's who knows what they're doing and's got the experience, and just talk to that person about your situation and how you're gonna manage it together.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um because it's inevitable, no matter how close you are and how good you are as a couple, and we're really, really good as a couple, uh, Susie and I, just really great, like amazing.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's still gonna be things that you don't necessarily see eye to eye on, and it helps to have a third party um kind of mediate, but also give you some education around what to expect and to let you know that things are normal as well.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like what you're what you're seeing and doing and feeling is a very normal thing, it's okay.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and give you some strategies to to make that integration more successful.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I find that the biggest challenges that come up when couples blend together are about kids, different different parenting styles, different family, even just different family cultures.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean um necessarily, you know, like Argentinian versus Australian.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't mean that.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just mean the the way each family operates, whether they're Argentinian, Australian, whatever that doesn't matter.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's just how how does this family grow up?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is the culture of this family?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you bringing in another one and you're trying to match these two cultures, familiar cultures together.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like how we've asked to do that.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is the thing, like that is the really tough thing.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like the expectations that some kids might have in terms of behavior, discipline, all kinds of stuff, all the stuff that you know surrounds kids may be very different to your kids.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like so, and you may not realize that at first because everyone's on their best behavior when you're not living together.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, like, so yeah, it's it's those cultural differences and the kind of um structural uh ways of working with your kids as a parent, yeah, could be quite different and that that can cause conflict.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, even the culture around food that each family brings in, you know, or sitting at the table, you know, if you've got a family that like our family is really important if we whoever's here at a meal time at mealtime, we sit at the table.
• 38:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just grab your food and eat it wherever.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Mashing those two together and finding ways that everybody gets a little bit of what they want and need without making it either one wrong.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I think that's important.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, nobody's wrong.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and no one's trying to control you as well.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like we're trying to get some kind of new thing together from two parts.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's never it's not gonna be the first part exactly, and it's not gonna be the second part exactly, it's gonna be something else, and we kind of all have to work together at that.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so communicating that to the kids is an important thing as well, like making sure they know that this is the a process that's not easy and they're doing really well in that process.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like label them, label them with positive labels, like you're being really good, you're you're being really inclusive with the everybody else, you know, being helpful.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: So give them those labels, and and that will help the cohesion happen.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it as well.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, I love it.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, a music question is one on all of my guests on the podcast.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share a piece of music or a song that will add to the reflect playlist um that kind of represents your story or might help anyone who finds themselves in a similar situation?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a really hard one because I listen, I listen to lots of music.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started the kind of separation journey, because of the fact I was going from house to house, environment to environment, different places and all over the place, including in the goldfields in in Victoria for a while.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was listening to heaps of music, right like road tripping kind of songs.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one particular song, this album is awesome.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Gilgamesh, it's by Gypsy and the Cat, which is I think they're a Melbourne band originally.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the the song is called Time to Wander.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's W-A-N-D, uh, not Wonder with the question mark, but Time to Wonder, like to kind of go on a journey.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's an awesome song, but all the kind of the feelings within it, the messages in it are about kind of moving on, regenerating, connecting with nature, which is big for me.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a massive thing.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and part of my story is is that as well.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a landscape photographer, it's one of the other things I do.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't mention this another hat.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so it kind of for me had a lot of the the messages that resonated with me at during that kind of journey.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I played it for months, all the time.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not like an obsessive weirdo, like 10, 20, 30 times in a row and nothing.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying like once or twice a day or something like that.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, you know, no Patrick Bateman style focus on the thing.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: But but the Gilgamesh album is amazing.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: You should you should listen to the whole thing.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's an awesome album.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'll drop the in the show notes for listeners to the yeah, I reckon people like it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: When is your book going to be available?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do we know yet?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And how can people connect with you if they want to follow you up?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I haven't really kind of made any socials or any kind of uh social accounts around the book yet, because you know what if like one dude buys it?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what would that be the point of?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got I'm waiting to see if anyone wants to read it first.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: If they do, then I'll kind of create some socials and build a community, which would be really cool.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to do that.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because now that I've written this one as a writer, I want to write others too.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking there's I've got other ideas, uh, and um, you know, something we talked about as well.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I do want to do other things, but for now, I've just got my LinkedIn.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can send you that link so you can put it up if people want to have a chat.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm really interested in in other people's other guys' um journeys as well.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what, you know, if they do read the book, like what they get out of what they get out of that book.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, if they've got some kind of wisdom they want to share, then I can republish it if there's other people looking at my stuff as well.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I can share the insights of other people um by building that community.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that could be cool.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, for now it's just LinkedIn.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I try to minimize socials as a person, like I was saying before.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I try to not spend too much time on that.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of ironic because I've got an agency that does all that kind of stuff.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we make videos and VR experiences and AI and stuff like that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I'm right in that area, but personally I kind of stay out of it as much as possible, unless it's for some kind of other cause like this.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when the book when the book is available, I'll launch it on my socials for you and we'll put it on.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be great, Sally Ann.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really kind of you.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that you wanted to share that we haven't touched on?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's two things.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one is this uh Scandinavian idea of a man, which I think is a really cool notion, and I think uh especially because of the culture, Aussie guys, I reckon, could kind of deal with they could kind of uh benefit from hearing from about this.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the idea is if you're a man, you're not the opposite of a woman.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're just not a boy.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the definition of a man is not a boy.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have that definition, then you can open up and be expressive, emotional, all those things that kind of some people say you can't be.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, like, you know, when you're going through something, you kind of have to be.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that despair, it's a real thing.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've got to just cry, you know.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those things happen, it's normal.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it's okay, you can accept that idea of you know being in despair if you understand yourself as not being a boy, meaning you don't have to be opposite to a woman, you don't have to be this stoic thing that just is like a rock the whole time.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: You might be the toughest dude in the world, you're still allowed to cry, it's fine, you know.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Man is not boy, yeah.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not boy, that's all.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's really interesting.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we have that transition in our society.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot a lot of a lot of dudes kind of don't kind of know when they become a man, like there isn't a moment where that happens, and a lot of every culture, every ancient culture in the world has that moment, and maybe it's for that reason, so that you can not be a boy anymore, um, which means you don't have to be the opposite of a woman.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a ridiculous idea.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how can you connect with someone you're the opposite to?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got to be this kind of similar in a lot of ways to connect with someone.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't believe opposites attract, I think it's a crazy idea.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one thing.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the second thing was that a notion of this is something I did, but I didn't realize there was a philosophy around it.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's called it's a Buddhism concept, and it's it's called the second arrow.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the first arrow is the one you get hit in the heart with, which is when she says, I want a divorce.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: The second arrow is all of the negative emotions that you wallow in, and all the like, I should have done this, I could have said that, could have done this, blah, blah, blah, all could have done and should have things.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all that kind of self-inflicted wounding.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's you grabbing an arrow, pulling it out of your quiver, and just going, stab wherever, you know, hurting yourself.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I was somehow, I don't know how, I just was aware of not doing that.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think maybe it was more aware of not doing that to my kids.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've got the they've got their first arrow as well, just as bad as me.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna kind of do or say or any any or anything negative or kind of influence them in a negative way because I'm just stabbing another arrow into them.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I do that?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think that's a really strong concept to dwell on for you know when you're in that situation.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Something bad happens, don't emphasize it with you know another thing that's self-inflicted, another self-inflicted wound.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, doesn't make any sense.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: I talk with my clients about that a lot, not necessarily the second arrow concept, but how much how how much time, effort, energy you're gonna expend sitting here, which is perpetuating your pain, versus looking forward.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I like the way you brought it back to your kids too.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: They they have experienced their first arrow.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: And as parents, we don't want to be the one inflicting the second or subsequent arrows.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Chris, thank you so so much for sharing your story, your time, your book.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: No worries, no worries.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really good.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we could keep talking.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe there's another conversation down the track.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, amazing if you could um, you know, share my book on on your socials.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really kind of you and generous.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a story that just needs to be heard, you know.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: We need those stories out there so that we can reframe what separation, divorce, and reorganization of family looks like afterwards.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: We need this, we need the positive stories rather than the crazy media frenzy stories of destruction.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that story.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: No worries.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: And 30 recipes as well, by the way.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got some food as well.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: 30 good recipes, easy recipes, doable recipes.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Chris.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So many great takeaways, right from the very beginning of early separation, divorce through to reorganising and blending families.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Links to both Chris's book and LinkedIn page are in the show notes should you wish to connect with him.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Grab that book, gift it to somebody you know and care about and love.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: As always, go gently, bye for now.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, divorce coach and strategist, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.