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38. Helping Couples to Do Money Together: An Advisor’s Guide with Heather & Douglas Boneparth · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't feel afraid of the uncertainty.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: You should embrace the opportunity of the excitement of not knowing what's next with the confidence to know that the two of you are equipped to do that together.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because the truth is, any construct of control we like to place around things, it's probably an illusion.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: We actually don't know what the next thing is going to be.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we were humbled in understanding that in our own lives.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: So we wanted to leave people with risk and the idea that like none of us really know.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: So let's start talking about it that.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive in.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: And today is the day that I have been waiting for since I'm not sure whenever this got scheduled.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Today, my friends, I have Douglas and Heather Bonaparte, who I'm sure some of you, maybe hopefully all of you, are very familiar with.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: They recently released their book, Money Together.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: And they are here to talk all things book, which really is talking all things couples, if I'm honest.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk couples and money.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, Doug, Heather, welcome to the show.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're here.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to waste another minute.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to get to the good stuff.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you guys for coming on.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, Ashley, we're so happy to be here.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so first burning question.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna fire away.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: I hope this doesn't feel like an interrogation.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna go against all of the things that I tell advisors to like do or like not do, really.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Burning question number one.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: What inspired you guys to write the book Money Together?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can you share with us a little bit about yourselves and maybe even kind of the origin story of this book?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think that we each have our individual reasons for writing the book, which is, I think, one of the things that makes it so unique.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: I will say it felt to both of us, though, at the end of the day, like people were not having the right conversations about money.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: Couples in particular are not having the right conversations about money.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's very easy, as you know, to get caught in proximate conflicts about things like a credit card bill, something like that, a budget missing your budget.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a lot going on under the surface.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: And we really wanted people to have words and to see themselves in the stories of other people and identify with those underlying feelings that dictate so much about our money behaviors.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we wanted people to feel seen and to build a voice in their relationship and to build more sustainable, equitable, fair relationships moving forward, because that's what you need for the long term, right?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in our own lives and story, which is kind of the common thread throughout the book, to just bring in it's not about it, this is not a memoir of us.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is a way for us to connect to the countless stories that we share around money.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: But for Heather and I, in terms of like what got us to the point of saying, hey, we we should write about this, to take a step back in our lives.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: We thought we had everything figured out around the time we were having our, we had our first daughter, and we bought a house and we're like, all right, you know, like major life goals accomplished.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just, yeah, this is gonna be a two-year point.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're good.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that's a very common, like naive thought for someone leaving their 20s and settle settling into this these ideas.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Big accomplishments.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, all right, well, if we can tackle that, you know, there's nothing else that we really need, you know.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're adulting.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're invincible.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're adulting.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: We are adults.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that life happens and will humble you very quickly.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: And especially for millennials, you know, we live our life from one unprecedented event to the next.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I think when we felt like we survived the Great Recession, we were not prepared for how the pandemic itself would deeply, deeply shift the power dynamics in our relationship around money and the way that we felt about our situation.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we hit this season of life where, you know, the earth underneath our feet shifted.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And from a financial standpoint, during that time, my business really took off.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Heather was the one holding down the stability as a corporate attorney from benefits to the salary and you know, everything flip-flopped.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: But my career was also plateauing.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: We had two small children, and I think as many women can relate to, you hit you reached this moment in your career where I call it the Bermuda triangle of my career.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there were many days where I wasn't sure whether I was being failed or I was failing.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of women experienced that.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it just so happened to coincide with the time in which Doug's career was taking off.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: And like overnight, it felt like Doug was making three times my salary.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I started to tell myself things about whose time was worth more, where our energy should go, and who really should have the ultimate say in our finances.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we get to this point, and basically Heather, you know, has the courage and the knowing of our relationship to sit down and explain to me like these things aren't serving me and us at this particular point in time.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we either need to make a change around what Heather's career would look like, or we're gonna dive in headfirst to what we always really wanted to do, which was work together.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that then just segued into, you know, reflecting on that, if we, a financial advisor of almost a couple decades at that point and a highly educated attorney, are struggling to get back onto the track that we were on just, you know, a handful of years before.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what's everybody else doing?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: How hard is this conversation for folks that aren't uniquely positioned to talk about it?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there was that epiphany of, hey, let's dive into why, you know, what's going on here.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how you get money together and a two-year project to go down, to see if we can't help people get to those levels of communication and start getting a little bit more organized around this very inherently messy conversation that is love and money.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's messy and it's emotional.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so much of that's what makes it messy.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so much of you guys' story.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm nodding my head and I'm like, yes, amen.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, keep preaching.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you're so right.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like myself as a therapist and my husband Clayton as a financial planner, even between the two of us, you would think that we could do money conversations easily.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say now in our marriage, we can.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: We've been together 20 years, but good grief, the origin, like when we were first starting out, like intelligent people.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: One is literally a professional in the finance space, the other is literally a professional in the emotional, psychological space.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And even for us, it was a challenge and messy.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we didn't have a roadmap, like a book.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't have to have any guidance on how do you do this.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: You you guys probably know know this through just some of your interviewing and and research, but even in the mental health space, they don't teach us as practitioners how to talk about money from a relational, emotional, psychological standpoint.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so, my goodness, if like these two parts, right, the financial system, right, but also the mental health, if they're not talking about this, they're, you know, they're failing everyone.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank goodness for you two that you figured it out and that you were like, hey, this is really kind of silly.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we should write about this.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: We felt like we've seen the trends in behavioral finance and having these better conversations around the human side of money.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: And there's been a lot of work.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, there's been countless books on the technical side of personal finance over the years.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: But how do you take two people with their own beliefs, their own baggage, their own feelings, their own values, which are steeped in things like your culture, your religion, your drama, your experience?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: How do you take two of them and find a way to harmonize together?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and the reason no one's done it is because it's so hard.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and because there isn't a one size fits all way to do it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was very important to me that we didn't produce some piece of thought leadership that was like, here's the 10 steps to financial harmony and everything's gonna be great if you just do just listen to us.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: These 10 things are all fine.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: I that was very important to me that that was not what we did.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is a practice and it's messy.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you just said it.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you took the word, yeah.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna thought I was gonna interject, but you're like, it's hard because it's a practice.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a practice, look, it if everybody would get in amazing shape if they just worked out one time, you know, everyone would be walking around all jacked and buffed and what have you, but you literally need to work out three to five days a week for like six to twelve months just to get to the level of like fitness.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: And and the point being that you go through seasons and chapters where it's harder and easier because we can we can't always control the outside external things that cause us to have to shift around and move around and reconfigure those things.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that was so humbling for us.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's what was so humbling for us.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to show other people that it's okay that it was easier for you five years ago than it is today.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: One of the from diving into just kind of the book, you know, and you guys were just alluding to this.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the book is divided up into parts, and the parts are thematic, is the word I would use.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Would you guys agree there?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, kind of face there and theme.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, not to give all of the juicy good stuff away, but like this first part here, look, as a clinician, I'm like eating it up.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like you talk about the beginnings, the origin story.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think about it like an iceberg, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: For couples.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's so much that you see above the waters, but then when you stick your head below the waters, good grief, there is a lot there.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And when it comes to two people coming together, we have to think about things from a systemic lens.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what really money is, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you guys dive into that.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: I love the we were talking before we hit record around neurodivergence, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Talking about ADHD and there's other mental health aspects there that impact how couples do money.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, talking about religion.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, the section on religion, I was like, I don't want to touch it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: We had to touch it, but I didn't touch it, but we had to touch it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: You had to touch it.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: But there are so many like systemic layers here that you guys touched on.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, from the gate, like out the gate, that I was like, oh my gosh, like buckle up, get ready.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is really, really good.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I I'm curious, like, from you know, I'm talking about this one section here, but you know, there are several other uh other parts, obviously, and kind of themes here.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me a little bit about these themes.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe for those that are curious, like, ooh, the first section is really juicy.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, tell me a little bit about these themes and how maybe how you guys thought that these why were these the ones chosen?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of this came together.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: It came together very organically, which is really interesting because I'm a planner.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm someone who likes to know what I'm doing.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: I like to have roadmaps going in.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very lawyerly thing for me to say that I go in knowing what the argument is that I want to advocate for, and then I find facts to support those arguments.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't work on a topic like this.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: What we had to do was sit down and start having these conversations with real couples, see where the like we had ideas, but I wanted to see where, see where the common issues were, see what wasn't being said and what we were inferring from what was missing from the conversation.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: So there was a lot that went into how we landed on these five sections.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: But so just for the listeners, here's the five sections.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: The first one is beginnings.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that's all about like before you come to the table, look, and I'm sure you'll you would appreciate and recognize this that so much of this is self-work before it can become couples' work.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we want you to understand not only where your partner's been, but really look critically at where you've been, your history, your family, what has either happened to you or the values that you've been taught from a young age.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: All those things play into your current money behaviors and feelings and attitudes today.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we start at the beginning, then we move into mistakes.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And mistakes not being us telling you what's a mistake, which was important, but but the ideas of the things that we wish were different, things that maybe didn't go the way we had planned, or mindsets that maybe aren't helping or serving us.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then the third one, which I believe is like the heart of the book and how we truly reach greater equity, which is one of the goals of the book, is about contribution and this idea that we contribute so much more to our family and our loved one than just earning money and what it means to be a provider and broadening our understanding of that concept to really encompass all the invisible and visible ways we care about the people that we love.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: You want to take the other two?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're jumping at the bit.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're on a roll, but okay, why not?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go for it.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Number four, we got power.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we wanted to go through the power dynamics and structures that exist in uh relationships.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: This could be collective ambitions and how people who are either both high powered and very career-oriented are able to balance these things.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: The central theme here is not having power over one another, which we see all too much.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do we have power with some?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this sharing of, yep, right there.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that just like touched me, right?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: It just touched me.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's these reframes of something that's so classic and doesn't really serve.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also a critical examination of the things that hold power over us that we may not be thinking about in that way.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we get into the finale here, and this is risk, right?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this is how we view things so we can move forward, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: How do we place our bets?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: How do we understand our own tolerances around this so that we can gain perspective before we make the decisions and we can have a better idea around how we set these goals that we have for ourselves?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine having a mutual goal, but very different ideas of how much risk you're gonna take to get there.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna create a little bit of dashing of expectations, if you will, if you can't align yourselves in that way.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll I'll just leave one more tidbit about that last section without leaving anything, without saying too much.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: But to paint with broad strokes, like we wanted to leave people with the idea that life is so uncertain.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't feel afraid of the uncertainty.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: You should embrace the opportunity of the excitement of not knowing what's next with the confidence to know that the two of you are equipped to do that together.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because the truth is, any construct of control we like to place around things, it's probably an illusion.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: We actually don't know what the next thing is going to be.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we were humbled in understanding that in our own lives.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we wanted to leave people with risk and the idea that like none of us really know.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start talking about it that what's wild here is that we did not have this arc, you know, sorted out when we went into the project.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And lo and behold, it comes together so nicely being bookended by your past and then looking forward into your future.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Future.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love it when stars align like that.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: That is so so, so true.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for taking the time just going through all of those.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually really nice to kind of hear, although I've looked through kind of each of those.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's really nice now hearing you guys explain these at, you know, a high level, which makes me even more excited for.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we're recording this right before Thanksgiving.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot wait for Thanksgiving break.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that I can just sit down and literally read line item by line item.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: The cornucopia on the table is just a copy of Money Together now.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when you're ready, we're ready to go through all 30 chapters now is the next part of the podcast.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Basically that's what I'm saying.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, basically that's what I'm saying.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, tell me then.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious on a personal level.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Do you guys have favorite parts of the book?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Favorite sections?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like what is this the first time you guys are talking about this?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, I know what mine are.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I'm I'm usually the one that takes this question if somebody asks.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, I'm going with beginnings, gotta go at the start.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it is the the the biggest and heaviest and and I think most involved section of the book.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you get through it and it's very easy to get through it, but it just then you know starts to really roll from there.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I like this because I've been on my own journey of the last two years of really understanding my own mental health journey, if you will.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Big believer in therapy, big believer in having a space for you to get that out there.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to do that kind of work, then you know, look no further than beginnings in the first so many chapters of the book here.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is the kind of stuff that you will need.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's the foundation, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't even know how you get much further until such time as you unpack yourself and then apply those same lessons and learnings when it comes to your partner.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's also where you're gonna get to learn a lot about your partner.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do bring it over there.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like Heather and I, much like you, you you've told us you've been together with your husband forever.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: We've been together forever since 1819.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I welcome 1819.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, not the year.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm so like not the year.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: We had monocles and top hats, and I was a steel tycoon.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, 18, 19 years old.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Good job, guys.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley and I were like, I was like, that is slightly insult.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Is that an insult?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are we?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's our third reincarnation as Heather and Doug.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've actually never gotten an animal.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just been us the whole time.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's great.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: You guys look great, by the way.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I welcome, I absolutely welcome the days where I learn a new story about Heather because we're asking the right questions or we're sitting down with this practice.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Ashley is the one who said it, the line that you love.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: About you said and you're like, I I hope you did say it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure you said it.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: I say a lot of things, Heather.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: So You said about you said that it's really easy to know the facts about your partner, but to know the stories behind those facts is a step deeper that not everyone has gone.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're doing when you're doing that, you're unlocking pieces in your relationship that move you forward in profound ways.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: It it sets up weeks, months, and years of new perspective with your partner.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the first section of the book, yeah, that that's the for me, that's the good.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I love the whole thing.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: I have chapters throughout that really are special to me, but if we're talking about just the section, the section about caregiving and contribution is what I believe is most needed in this conversation.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's most needed in the financial planning industry.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's most needed for women to hear.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's the boundary breaker.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: Women and men to hear.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like I truly believe that this broadening of the concept of what it means to provide for your family and who should consider themselves a provider is going to impact a lot of change in people's lives.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: But then to follow that section with what is probably the most prescriptive chapter in the whole book, which is called Our Tine Rebellions.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's chapter 20.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's about how to step into your own power around money and around the things that you want in your life, coming off the section about revaluing and reevaluating and honoring your own time and your own energy towards all the things and people that you love.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: To me, like I wanted to provide a gentle but tough love to anyone who has stepped away from their finances in this conversation and say, yes, when we talk about power, we're talking about the dynamics between the two of you, but you have an obligation to yourself and to the people you love to step into this on your own.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: And this is what this looks like.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that that and I wanted to do that in the most tender, caring, gentle way possible, but important.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think you it is.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think you did, because if I recall correctly, like you talked about like time being something that you contribute and going back to kind of what Doug said, this way of reframing the way that we think about, in this case, contribution, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And what is contribution?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I loved just kind of that language that you used there around talking about, especially for women, even more so women who maybe choose to work less uh or not work for income, choose to be more of the quote unquote traditional homemaker, stay-at-home parent.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like time is a contribution.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I loved that there was some language and just how you walked through that around reframing that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: I do agree with you.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: It is very powerful, especially in the financial planning and talking about money and love, like for couples, is understanding that contribution is not just income.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just money.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: A question that we started asking couples and the answers were bothering me.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it's one of the reasons why we we leaned into this section, and I went as hard as I did in the section on these points, was because we started asking individuals whether they feel free to spend.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And the answers to those questions often like fell along the lines of people who are earning less income or no income at all did not feel free to spend.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it to me was a illustration.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: frustration of their agency around money when they weren't the ones earning it.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that to me was something that I said we have to work to change this.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: I want this book to work against that thought.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think you guys are on the right path there.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're paving that path there, Heather.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to shift gears just a tad bit, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: We've been talking about like the book and just kind of more broadly around you know these themes and and important very, very important themes.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: I want to shift though to talking about how advisors can lean into some of the things that you guys have written here.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously they are not couples therapists.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: We do not want them to be couples therapists, but I do think that there is so much here in this book that advisors could take away from or lean into a little bit more.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I know advisors were not your audience that you were writing to, but Doug, you know, maybe they are I'm seeing your face here now.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well maybe they are okay let's start let's maybe let's start there.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes it's not it's not like the primary we're going to write a book for financial advisors but I think without a doubt we we kept advisors in mind.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that would have been impossible not to given the fact we're having a financial advisor, you know, part of this project.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I want this to be a tool for financial advisors.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't then read it just for their you know own benefit.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this can be a wonderful tool that one adds tremendous value to the relationship they have with their clients because I think we always should be looking for ways to provide value and create better financial outcomes for people.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I can think of no better way to do that than to harmonize around money with both partners at the table.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that was a big one right there.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: We all experience the times when either both partners are there and you see one's paying attention and the other is just not dialed in.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: What can you do without making things awkward or jeopardizing your relationship if we can feed you the prompts, the questions and the tools to get them to build a better practice around money.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's great that they're showing up to the meeting in the first place.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: But the bigger problem I would say is why is one person in the instances where one person is showing up in a relationship to these meetings?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's the danger zone.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I think a higher level of work comes into play.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: So whether the book itself is that tool to say can we get there or you can now have the dialogue with that individual and say, you know, I really think we're going to have a better time getting to the things that you want for yourself if we start working outside of the conversation of how your portfolio did this month or we just built your family a financial plan and your family is literally not here to have the conversation.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: How valid is this plan to begin with?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Listen you're paying me to do this.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to give you that value.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I can think of another dozen ways financial advisors can use this to bring into their practice.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Ashley I really appreciate the fact that you said we're not trying to become therapists.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Not at all.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact this may reveal if you do this type of work and ask the right types of questions it may reveal and we're trained as certified financial planners to know when we we have to say when we're out of our depth here you may say listen we've been trying to create this practice forever and I really in my heart believe that it has to be taken to another professional at this time.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it creates better bridges you hit the you hit the moving professionals that may need to be included into the conversation.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So advisors don't feel like it's on their shoulders and they can continue down the road of ensuring that the practice around financial planning is extended to the other areas of planning or therapy or counseling that needs to take place.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Again, to create happiness and fulfillment by achieving goals in their life.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't go much further than that on why advisors might be interested in this.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, they should buy a copy of the book for every single client obviously I agree.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, but I think Doug Doug touches on the right point here, which is just that we are opening the door for better conversations for their clients.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: And the goal is not for an advisor to sit down and interview his clients with this book.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: That is not their job.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what he can do in suggesting this as a resource is giving them the space between those quarterly meetings to kind of really begin to have these conversations and see whether you'll see whether that whether they are when they both show up a quarter later you're going to see this is very important to I I really want to be very aware of how uncomfortable going down this road may be not just for clients to hear this from their financial advisor, but for financial advisors to say it to their clients, you know, rocking the boat, you know, when you have a good relationship and you're managing money and delivering financial plans and you think to yourself, yeah I don't know if I go there what am I going to do to my relationship?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: Are they going to feel judged if I say to them well your your wife has never showed up to this meeting and we are not out here to rock boats like that.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're here to just give those prompts for them to come out of that meeting that discussion and then take that to their partner take that home after the meeting so that as Heather said you're going to show up a quarter later if that's your model, hey, how'd your conversations go?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You'll learn a lot right then and there.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are affected, you're going to have that conversation at that moment in time and you can begin the practice.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: And one other thing we've actually made this point when we've spoken about this topic to advisors at conferences and things.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you're not comfortable as an advisor suggesting this individually in an individual meeting, you could send out a for in your firm-wide quarterly quarterly uh newsletter or something like that and say, hey, you know what would be really great?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like we've we read this book, for example, we read this book.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's changing the way I think about some of these things.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: It would be really great if your next quarterly meeting you think about maybe if your partner doesn't typically come, I'd really love to see both of our clients at this next meeting.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: You could put it in a general in a general com too it'll resonate.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: It will it doesn't have to you don't have to feel like you're putting someone on the spot if you're not comfortable with that.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Very true.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: I love that point around just you know in making it an invitation right sharing this is what I'm learning.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Here is an invitation.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: You're not updating you're not updating your website you know right right the other thing I guess and and again that first section the beginnings is one that I I read through just the the most because it spoke to me but as I was reading through it and reading about you know particularly like the um couples of uh different faith backgrounds you know there were several clients that came to mind several clients of the firms that like I work for that I've been in on those meetings and I'm aware of the fact that they are inner faith.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: And my hope was is as I was reading some I was like this is so freaking cool because like my hope is is that an advisor is going to read this and if they have an interfaith couple or a couple where one partner might be neurodivergent that they're gonna start click and be like, oh no wonder like this is difficult or oh okay no wonder like this female partner is wanting to give so much money to her parents and from my lens it feels like financial enablement but like culturally culturally that that's norm.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's normal is the norm.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like it makes sense like I think it's such a gift that you got in writing this it really like is a gift for couples but also I think it's a gift.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's a gift.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think for advisors too just to you know share just some different perspectives on how they can view their clients their couples in particular.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: I hope that that's the case.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think so and that's definitely one of the goals you know when we wrote about culture which was this super nutrient dense I was probably the hardest chapter to write and the most people were the most people were interviewed about this topic and only a fraction of them made it in the book.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: It was important because you can't capture it all.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: You're not going to capture how every single culture views money and and also like who can but I wanted to paint with broad strokes and say here are some ways that culture impacts the way people approach money.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: Here are ways that like when it comes to permission to earn money so there are certain cultures that frown upon certain ways to earn money.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that that is deeply impactful as an adult right so I I think things like that as an advisor to know that right to say okay well maybe this is something I would not suggest to the these folks in in in a if there was a difficult moment or they found themselves in a pitch or you know these people and you're like all right they've done this before they do it again and I'm gonna tell them to go do XYZ yes yes having that insight right can deepen the relationship and deepen the problem solving solutions you can offer.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah absolutely so okay final pro maybe this is the final question I don't know we could chat all day I don't want it to be if it is I mean I'll just say that I will just say that but I know that the book is more recent in terms of being released and you guys have been out on the circuit and and you've been promoting it you've been talking like a whole lot about it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: In the short I'll say amount of time it may not feel like it's been a short amount of time for you guys, but in this like short amount of time since uh the book coming out I'm curious like what have you learned from it?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of feedback?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like what are people saying about it?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe what's surprised you the most yeah let's go there.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: People were not expecting there to be so many stories.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: People were not even though I I I I told them I'm like I wanted this is not your typical personal finance book.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is not what you expect.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think people were really surprised in a positive way to find stories that they could see themselves in and in places where they weren't expecting it either.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: It could have been a line I have a lot and this this is what warms my heart like the writer side of me like for people to take a photo of a page and text it to me and say this, this with their like this is me.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like that that is what we did it for.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I will go in a completely different direction here because there have been a few only because it's been said twice in the last I think 48 hours and that kind of caught my attention if you you know download the audiobook of Money together you will be delighted to know that this young lady is the one who narrated the entire audio and you know you'll get to the part where some guy reads the questions and realize like he's awesome but it's not about the guy reading the questions in the audiobook.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's about I'm the guy.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's about Heather's two-day adventure to New York City to record this thing.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I bring it up is because Heather reads not only how she writes but the fact that you can hear two people have said you can hear the inclinations in her voices in her excuse me her voices wow her voice um and really kind of drawing out the emotion that inherently is in these pages and in these words and that was really for me cool to hear uh that it just created another level it was like my magnum opus as a theater as a high school vesti to read this book.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: I cannot tell you I brought every emotion to the table.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's you know it's just for me for I knew I knew I knew there were layers you know as you read the book and if you now hear Heather's voice and you and you read it you'll you'll hear her voice as you read I knew there were layers and the the writing's absolutely phenomenal but then to take it to you know just a different different stratosphere of of depth by incorporating that part into it that was super cool wait do you want to know I'm sorry and then I I won't just keep I'm trying to I'm trying to compliment no no no but no but Ashley asked what surprised us and something about the audio book surprised me and that I I I feel so dumb now not like having not thought about it before.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and we talk about how to get two people to read this book.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Two people have told us in the last two days that they put it on and they've listened to it together in the house.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like wait why didn't I think why didn't I think of that sooner that they should be listening to it together.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like oh my God and you're thinking the whole time people are reading to it together.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes I want you to sit down and read it together.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want you to do.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know are you done with this page are you done with this beginning with this page but did you see that section that's about you yeah no take clear you know what it's funny that you say that because years ago the first time that I watched fair play Eve Rodsky's book Fair Play I watched the documentary on HBO that's exactly what I did.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: I paused it and I said get in here like standing there with like you know catch up on my hand what do you want this and I was just like oh no that's me that's not great.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: At least you said at least you said that because I could totally see Clayton being looking at me and pointing I'm like why are you why am I watching this right now?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want what are you talking about?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was dead to rights and it changed it actually did change a lot in terms of behaviors and things that we do that are very much get caught up in the book here.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah audio audiobook experience.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: So okay I didn't know that there is an audio version I will after I read it because I want to read it and then I want to listen to it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna have a week of Heather and Doug and I hope that's not creepy but no but only if you text me or email me during the week of Heather and Doug.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Many many people want this I hear yeah a week of Heather and Doug.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: They're gonna be asking for their money back after a week of Heather and Doug Heather and Doug experience they're like worst ride ever worst ride ever money back.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh I love that I love that okay guys so as we are wrapping up here sadly tell us a little bit about where can people find you where can they get the book do all the you know promotional all of that stuff just list them out.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: You got the last one money together you can anywhere and in all formats anywhere books are sold.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: Anywhere but you can find out more information about us and the book at do moneytogether dot com.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: We also write a weekly newsletter called the joint account over on which you can also find at readthejointaccount.com and if you're interested in our in our day job and our firm it's bona fidewealth which is at bona fidewealth.com that's with an E for bone like Bonaparte and uh of course Doug and I are on social because we love that and I'm everywhere on social at average Joel that's my middle name and he's at Doug Bonapart.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's my real name or if you guys look up the six seven viral couple you can also find you guys that is also us Barriot in the past.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: No I I had a friend text me this I didn't share this with you Heather I meant to send you this a friend literally sent me a screenshot from Facebook and they were like oh my gosh this is so funny we should do this for Halloween and I was like wait a second I was like I'm I know that like and I'm I'm gonna be talking to them here actually in a I was in everyone's group chats for like a whole I you were but it was all do you know what's so funny and a reality of the publishing industry that's so insane like you want to go viral for your book the week that your book comes out not for a sweatshirt that you made at Michael's the night before take what you can get babe from I know I saw I think I saw on Instagram your post about that in my heart I was like oh I was like but maybe maybe it's one of those where like all publicity is good publicity.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know there is far, far worse things to go very on for it's very on brand for us for that to have happened I have to say yes well thank you guys so much for sharing all of your wisdom and your time today.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for coming on and talking about money together.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate it and thank you to all of you that are out there listening.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for allowing Doug, Heather and I into your ears and into your mind today.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to keep the connection going.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so would Doug and Heather as they shared where you can find them.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can find me on LinkedIn at AshleyQuy where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want even more just like if you want even more Doug and Heather if you want even more Ashley Kwame where I put out show updates, exclusive resources, practical strategies for your advisory practice, you can subscribe to our monthly newsletter at beyond thef.com.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure to follow the show so that you never miss future conversations like this one.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: And as always my friends remember finances don't have feelings but your clients do.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time keep planning keep growing and keep going beyond thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed the show please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: For more resources, tips and to continue the conversation visit our website at beyondthefp.com You'll find articles, tools and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice.
• 39:10
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• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn and remember the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time keep planning keep growing and keep going beyond