Latest / Bless This Mess: A Southern True Crime Podcast / [Georgia] The Deadly Delivery to Lita McClinton

Transcript

[Georgia] The Deadly Delivery to Lita McClinton · Bless This Mess: A Southern True Crime Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: To Bless This Mess and the True Crime Podcast. I'm Carrie,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: here with Stu. Say hi, Stu.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Hey.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Alright, this week we're going to Georgia.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Georgia. Would you like me to sing some Willie Nelson,
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: Georgia on my mind?
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Is that who sings that?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: He's one of the people that has.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't... I don't know. Anyways, yes, we're going
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: to Georgia, and if you are familiar with the area,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: so around Atlanta, there's a subdivision called Buckhead. It's known
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: for grand sprawling estates, towering oak trees, wrought iron gates,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and high-end living. Now, back in the 1980s, it was
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: the absolute epitome of southern elegance, old money, and quiet affluence.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: In honor of the Buckhead area, that brings me to
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: our weekly poll. We're going to start talking about the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: weekly pour on the porch here because I'm not the
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: best at posting it in the week. But tonight, Stu
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: has heartburn, so I am drinking.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Yes. I took an antacid and water.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Yes. So his weekly pour on the porch is an
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: antacid and the free water from the Amazon delivery. that
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: they throw in to keep things cold.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: So what I did is I paired it by taking
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: the antacid from Walmart, the great value one, and then
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: I chased it with some water from Amazon.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Which flavor antacid?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Do you remember which one you got?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: I think it was red. Okay.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: So today, in honor of our Georgia case, we're making
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: the Buckhead Rose. I made a buck. We aren't making it.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I made it. So this is like, it's super... I'd
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: say super refreshing, super crisp. So you fill up your
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: mason jar. We're going to have to go tell that
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: cat to go. That's old Jiggy Piggy over there. Oh,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: big boy, as we call him now. All right. We've
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: taken care of him.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Have we?
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Big boy, I think.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: I was mistaken. That was not a great value. It
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: was a Kirkland.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Kirkland.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, fancy. Costco. Okay. So anyway, so you fill your
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: mason jar with crushed. Ice all the way to the top.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: And then you throw in two ounces of bourbon. I
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: used whiskey because that's all I had. And then you
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: throw in.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: We had Jameson.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: We had Jameson. And then you throw in one ounce
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: of cranberry juice. And this gives it that pink because
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: it's the Buckhead Rose Stew. Pink rosy look. Squeeze in. Well,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I didn't squeeze a lemon. I did one ounce of
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: lemon juice. And then you just shake it up really good.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: And then top it off with ginger ale or like
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: sparkling water. And then you can throw a rosemary leaf
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: on there. But I have issues with rosemary. So I
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: slapped me some basil.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Slap. Yes.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Slap of basil. Rosemary.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Who would have thunk?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: So anyway, so yeah, it's really good. It's really good, Stu.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: I'm going to have to try that. Yeah.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe when you... So that's what I'm drinking tonight, and
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: then that's what we'll be drinking on our sitting, zipping,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: and bullshitting on Fridays. Speaking of that, let me do
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: a little housekeeping stew before we pull up a rocker.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Here's a quick reminder of our weekly schedule. Oh, let
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: me give you a teaser of what we're going to
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: be talking about first, though, so you don't leave before
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I read this.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: No. Well, it should be in the notes.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Well, I know, but not everybody reads. So on Friday
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: morning of January 1987, the quiet neighborhood was shattered. This
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: neighborhood of Buckhead was shattered by one of the most brazen,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: cold-blooded ambush murders this region has ever witnessed. It looked
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: like a routine Friday delivery, a long white box with
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: soft pink bow filled with fresh-cut roses, but tucked right
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: underneath those delicate petals was a loaded 9mm handgun.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: You stop it.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Alright, now back to housekeeping. Now I've got you titillated
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: about what's happening. So before we pull up a rocker,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: here's a quick reminder of our weekly schedule. So on Mondays,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: we step outside the South for our A Little Less
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Mess mini-sodes. And Thursdays are for our regular full-length cases
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: right here on the main feed. Now, if you want
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: to get those Thursday episodes early and ad-free, plus our
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Friday bonus show, Sittin', Sippin' and Bullshittin', come join our
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Patreon family. But I warn you, Only come over if
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: you're cool, okay? You can't be, like, all uncool.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: All uppity like the folks in Bakken.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: As Luanne Delisep said. You got to be cool, all right?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Whatever happens on the porch stays on the porch on Fridays,
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: all right? You can also help keep the porch light
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: on by visiting our Buy Me a Coffee page to
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: treat us to a sweet tea. Now, while you're at it,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: make sure you're following us on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: To catch my True Crime and Dinner Time series, which
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: I really enjoy doing, and our weekly true crime documentary recommendations,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and as always, the best and absolutely free way to
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: support the show is to take a second to rate, review,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: and subscribe wherever you're listening right now. Alright, grab your
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: mason jars, take a big ol' swig, and let's get
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: into today's episode.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: The date is Friday, January 16th, 1987. The setting is
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: Camellia Drive.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: If you're local.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Nestled in a quiet, manicured enclave of luxury brick townhomes
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: in North Atlanta's Buckhead community. Sounds delightful. Living in Unit
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: 106 was 35-year-old Lita McClinton. If you talk to anyone
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: who crossed paths with Lita, whether it was her family,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: her coworkers, or the people she met around town, they
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: would tell you she had this radiant, magnetic presence. She
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: had an extraordinary eye for fashion, worked as an accomplished
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: boutique buyer for high-end retail shops across Atlanta, and took
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: genuine pride in building a life filled with dignity, style,
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: and hospitality. She was the kind of person who lit
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: up a room, big mistake, every time she entered, warm
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: and gracious to everyone she met.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: On this particular Friday, Lita's alarm had gone off earlier
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: than usual. Normally, she enjoyed sleeping in on weekday mornings
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: when her boutique schedule permitted, taking her time with coffee
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: and easing into the day. Sounds lovely.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: It does sound delightful.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: But this morning was entirely different. She had an 11
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: o'clock court hearing scheduled downtown at the Fulton County Courthouse.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: This hearing was the culmination of two agonizing years of bitter,
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: draining litigation over her divorce from divorce from her estranged husband,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: James Sullivan. This was not just a squabble over furniture
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: or personal belongings. Lita was formally challenging their prenuptial agreement,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: alleging that Jim had fraudulently concealed assets, offshore holdings, and
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: business interests when she signed it. Under Georgia law, if
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: the presiding judge ruled in her favor that morning, the
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: prenup would be tossed into in the trash, and roughly
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: half of a $ 5 million estate was immediately on the table.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: Around 8 o'clock in the morning, Lita was upstairs in
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: her master bedroom. She had her court outfit laid out
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: neatly across the bed, the iron was warming up, and
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: her legal paperwork was organized in her briefcase.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Of course she knows she's going to be showing up
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: styling at the old courthouse if she's a fashion buyer.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: About to get $ 2.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: 5 million?
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Bring your best. Mm-hmm. She was pacing through her mental notes,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: thinking about what her attorneys were going to present to
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: the judge in just three short hours. Outside on Camellia Drive,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: in the wintry air, it was bitterly cold, heavily overcast,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: and it was dead quiet. Down the block, an employee
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: from a local florist shop called Botany Bay Florist was
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: running late for work, rushing to scrape off the frost
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: off his windshield. A few doors down, a resident was
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: walking her was out walking her golden retriever along the sidewalk.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: She was bundled up in a heavy winter coat, completely
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: oblivious to what was about to unfold.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Now around 8.15, that neighbor noticed an unfamiliar man walking
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: purposefully down Camellia Drive. He stood out immediately because he
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: clearly didn't live in the townhouse complex. He was walking
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: with his head down, moving briskly toward Lita's walkway. Witnesses
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: later described him as an athletic man wearing a dark
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: athletic windbreaker, dark work pants, and a dark ball cap
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: pulled low over his eyebrows to obscure his forehead and hairline.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: Similar to Stu.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: I don't have a hairline. I know. The hat helps,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I guess helps you disguise that whenever you're out and about.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: But what caught everyone's eye was what he was carrying
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: in his arms. He was cradling a long, slender, white
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: floral delivery box, beautifully tied with a bright pink satin bow.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: It was the quintessential presentation you saw coming out of
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: a high-end floral shop in Buckhead when someone was receiving
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: a dozen long stem roses.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: The nature... nature. The neighbor watched as this man walked.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: We really can't, we really can't talk, and people that
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: are probably like, what is wrong with you?
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: I know, right? He walked straight up the brick walkway
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: of Lita's townhouse, stepped onto the porch and pushed the doorbell. Inside,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Lita was in her silk dressing robe.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: That's, I need to get a, A silk dressing robe?
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: My dressing clothes before I get dressed between my pajamas
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: and my clothes.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: For the day. Okay, you never get dressed, so you're
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: just in your pajamas from morning till night.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: That's because I don't have my silk dressing robe. So
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: you don't know how.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: To transition from pajamas?
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: In a smoking robe, a cigar smoking robe.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: You're still in the pajamas I left you in this morning.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: I've been wearing these clothes for three days straight.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Disgusting. That's not true. We went to a rare plant market.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: On Sunday, so I know at least was wearing different
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: clothes then.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Yes. Inside, Lita was wearing her silk dressing robe, Carol,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: finalizing her morning routine before getting into her courtroom suit
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: when the chime echoed through the foyer. She thought it
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: was probably a friend or a family member, or perhaps
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: one of her attorneys had sent an arrangement wishing her
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: good luck for the battle she was facing.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Because he's like, we about to get paid. About to
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: get paid. 2.5 million, I get a cut of that. Right?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she was facing this legal battle at 11 a.m.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: She set down what she was doing, walked down the
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: polished hardwood floors, stepped into the entrance hall, and unlocked
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: the deadbolt on the heavy front door.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Lita cracked the door open a few inches. The man
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: stood on the threshold extending the white florist box toward her.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: But as Lita smiled and reached toward to accept the delivery,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the man didn't let go of the box. Instead, he
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: shoved his right hand directly underneath the tissue paper and
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: pulled out a 9mm semi-automatic handgun. Without uttering a single
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: word of warning, without making a demand for money or
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: asking a question, he leveled the barrel point-blank at her
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: face and chest and pulled the trigger multiple times.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: The crack of the gunfire, Karen, shattered the silence of
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: the morning there on Camellia Drive. Down the sidewalk, the
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: neighbor walking her dog jumped in sheer terror as the
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: gunshots echoed out against the brick homes, Her dog began
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: barking frantically. She spun around just in time to see
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: the man sprint off of Lita's porch, letting the open box,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: the lid, and the tissue paper tumble onto the concrete.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: He dashed toward an older faded sedan parked near the curb,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: threw himself behind the wheel, pulled the door shut, hit
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: the gas, and squealed his tires as he drove out
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: of the neighborhood toward the main thoroughfares.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: The neighbor bolted toward Lita's porch, screaming for help and
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: alerting nearby residents who had heard the concussive blast. When
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: she reached the open doorway, she was met with a
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: scene of absolute horror. The front door was swinging wide
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: open into the foyer. Lita was lying collapsed on the
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: hardwood floor in a pool of blood, critically wounded and
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: barely breathing. All around her, scattered across the entrance hall,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: the threshold and the porch were loose pink rose petals
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: So this was straight out of a movie, Stu, if
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you will.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Like the... I mean, I guess they at least sprung
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: for the flowers when they did this, I guess.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Well, who was the one? Sheila Warren that showed up
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: dressed like a clown when she did it?
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she had the flower. Well, the Joker also
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: does this, I believe. The Joker?
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: From Batman.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: From Batman. Batman. I'm Batman.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: Atlanta police units and paramedics were dispatched. When emergency medical
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: personnel reached the door, they found Leta clinging to life
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: by a thread. Her pulse was weak and... barely there.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: First responders immediately began life-saving measures. They loaded her onto
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: a gurney and rushed her into the back of an ambulance,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: speeding toward Piedmont Hospital under police escort with silence wailing.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: But the gunshot trauma to her head was so devastating
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: that shortly after arriving at the emergency room, doctors exhausted
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: every medical intervention and 35-year-old Lita McClinton was pronounced dead.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Because you know she had money, so she's got nice things.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Inside was all her cash, her credit cards, and her checkbook.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Her jewelry was intact on her dresser. Nothing inside the
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: home had been rummaged through. No drawers were open, and
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: there were no signs of forced entry. This was an
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: assassination carried out in broad daylight on a peaceful residential street. Listen,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: it is 10.15 at night, okay?
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: It's two hours past your bedtime.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: It is two hours past my bedtime.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: The crime scene technicians began gathering physical evidence with extreme care.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: They marked and bagged the spent 9mm shell casings on
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: the porch and in the doorway. They then picked up
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: that long white box and the stems of the pink roses.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: The lead detectives immediately flipped the box over, looking for
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: any branding, any sticker, any receipt, anything that would give
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: them a clue as to who the florist was.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: You know, I would say, yeah, that's like, who's going
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: to sit there and leave, like, the actual florist and
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: who ordered the flowers and, like, a note? But it's
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: probably happened before that someone's actually just left the, ordered
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: the flowers and never thought anything about that there'd be
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: a note on who it was from. So it's good
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: of them to check, but it's like, only an idiot
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: would do that.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: We have covered plenty of idiots.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Who have left their receipts and whatnot. This is true.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Or their handwriting.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Yes. Our dumbest criminal. Some guy wrote his ransom request
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: on his pay stub or something.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Personnel number and everything.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Yes. But in this case, there was nothing. No shop name,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: no order slip, no delivery tag with an address or
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: a sender name. It was completely sterile. The box had
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: been purchased retail off the shelf and assembled entirely as
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: a disguise.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: That meant the entire delivery was an elaborate calculated prop.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: In a secure neighborhood like Buckhead, residents kept their deadbolts
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: locked and looked through peepholes before opening their doors to strangers.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: But a delivery man holding fresh roses and a pink
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: ribbon would disarm anybody who was looking out there trying
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: to proceed with caution. You'd be like, oh my God,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you'd just be excited to see the flowers. You're like, wow,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: this is amazing.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: One might be.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Not me. I will never fall for that now. After this,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: I'll be like, put them on the board and leave.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: That's why I did not get you any today for
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: our anniversary.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why don't you just tell everybody you didn't give
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: me flowers for our anniversary today?
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: I bought you a present for our anniversary.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Where's it at?
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: It ain't here.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Got to talk to the shipper.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: That's what happens when you order it the day before.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: I ordered it a week ago.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, well.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: When is mine going to arrive?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I don't have a present for you.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: So.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to pay you. In different ways.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: No, before you come at Stu, I'll give him a
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: freaking break about the flowers. He's home with these four
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: children all day. It's hard to get out if he
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't get out.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Because if I ordered $ 100 flowers to be delivered.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Then I would be mad that you paid $ 100 to
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: get flowers delivered. Yes.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: It's a catch-22.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Well, you lost, so that's a catch-22 right there.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: You're not a catch?
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: No. Boom. I'm not 22 either.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: No, you're not.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Okay. Um... You really want to go there, Stu? All right.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Where was I? Oh, it was about the.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Getting flowers.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: So the killer used that disguise to guarantee that Lita
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: would willingly open her door. Especially back then, I feel like... Nowadays,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: people really won't answer their door. But back then, people
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: used to just show up at your house, you know?
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Nowadays, nobody shows up. If somebody shows up, you're like,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: what the fuck's wrong with you?
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, we used to show up down the road at
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: somebody's house and knock on the door and ask them
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: if we could go swimming. You know where the Bayou
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Wilderness Resort is?
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: That used to be somebody's mansion right there. They used
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: to train horses for thoroughbred racing at Evangeline Downs. And
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: the Emersons used to let the neighborhood kids just walk over,
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: knock on their door, and say, hey, can we go swimming?
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: And they'd be like, sure, come on in.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, yeah. Nowadays, someone knocks on your door. Every
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: person's like, our kids.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Are like, stranger. Let me check the camera.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Stranger danger, stranger danger. I'm like, be quiet. You don't
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: want the strangers to know you're in here. We've got
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: to work on that. By the time I was a teenager,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: you dropped to the floor and you like crawled. You
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: started crawling to peek out and see who was there.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: I just look on the camera now.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I know you look on the camera now. I'm saying
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: back in the day before the cameras, eventually I got
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: to the point where I would just like drop on
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: the ground and crawl and kind of try to peek
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: out the window.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Like who's showing up?
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Stuart, I've been concerned about being murdered for.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: Quite some time.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Quite some time. Okay.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, I remember you called me. You were in the
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: house alone. Had all the lights on.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. I used to not be able to sleep.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: If I was home alone, I used to have every single,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: every alarm. in the house was on the backyard. The
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: front porch looked like, okay, I'll stop.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: There go our numbers.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Anyways, the, uh, I used to keep every light on
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: and I would stay up until I could not physically
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: stay awake anymore. And then I had this dog. Her
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: name was Daisy.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: Daisy.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: And I had her since I was a, like a
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: senior in high school. And so she could sense my,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: she's a border collie. So she was super smart and
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: she could sense my anxiety, I think. So anytime I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: was alone, if we went on a walk by ourselves,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: she was like on guard. Like she was on point
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: looking around. There was no plane. There was no picking
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: up pine cones. There was like, cause her favorite thing
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: was picking up pine cones. Anyway. So, um, She used
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: to try to put as many in her mouth as
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: she can. I actually wrote a children's book about it,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: but I don't know how to get it published.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: So it's just sitting there.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: There it sits. It's about Daisy and her pine cones
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: and my dead mother. But anyway, just throw that one
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: in there too. So anyways, but whenever I was home alone,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: so she would make it 10 times worse because she
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: would sit there and just be like.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: On edge. We got to watch.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: We got to watch. Something's going to happen. Something's going
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: to happen. Someone's going to do our murderous. Anyways, yeah.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I'm better now. I can go to sleep now because
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: I'm tired. I'm too old. Me holding out as long
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: as possible is not that.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Somebody coming in and murdering you might be doing you
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: a favor.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: If I end up in the hospital for a couple
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: of weeks, I can get some real good rest. Get
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: caught up on the podcast episodes, you know. Anyways.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: It's like when I left home to come here to
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: get this house and I got that hotel sleep. I know.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I need to get work to send me on a
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: business trip here pretty soon.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was here for like three days getting that
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: hotel sleep.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't been on a business trip in a while.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: We need to get that lined up.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go on the one that my
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: co-worker went on, though. No.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I might collect my insurance money if you do.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: You might.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: Is it my turn? I think so.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Am I supposed to be reading something? Yes, it's your turn.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: When detectives interviewed Lita's family at the hospital, they were,
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: of course, shattered. But they... were ready to point a
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: finger in one direction.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this was not one of those ones where, like,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: did they have any enemies? They're like, we already know.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: We're going to tell you exactly who it is. Her
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: parents looked investigators dead in the eye and said, look
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: at her estranged husband, James Sullivan. And the moment detectives
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: learned about the 11 o'clock court hearing scheduled for that
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: very morning, the puzzle pieces began locking into place, as
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: one might imagine, because Mr. Sullivan is a maroon.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about James Vincent Sullivan, Stu, and how this
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: marriage unraveled. Now, back in the 1970s, Jim Sullivan was
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: a wealthy businessman from Boston. Of course he was a Yankee.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Coming down here.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Massachusetts, just messing everything up.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Messing up our Georgia peaches. He had relocated to Georgia
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: after inheriting a massive, highly lucrative wholesale beverage distributorship. Distributorship.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Distributorship.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Called Crown Beverages. Based in... I've heard of Crown Beverages.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: I feel like. I've heard of Crown Royal. I'm not
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: sure if I've heard of this distributor.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, maybe that's where I'm mistaken. Whenever I saw the Crown...
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: He had done the Crown Beverages, I was thinking it
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: was like a.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Anyways. Based down in Macon, Georgia. He had an Ivy
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: League degree, social pedigree, and enormous wealth. Enormous... I thought...
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Got in a different direction. You thought I was going
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: to go in a different direction with that.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Take us to the river.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Now, when he met Lita in Atlanta in 1975, he
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: was captivated by her poise and style. They began dating,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: moved in high society circles, and married in December of 1976.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: At first, they lived in a grand estate in Macon,
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: but Jim Sullivan was obsessed with social standing and status.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Macon wasn't prestigious enough for him. He wanted to rub
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: shoulders with old money tycoons, so he purchased an oceanfront
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: mansion in right on South Ocean Boulevard in Palm Beach, Florida.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: But behind the wrought iron gates of that Palm Beach palace,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: their marriage was suffocating.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Is that where we passed through? Was that Palm Beach?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Down in Florida? Those were some big houses. But we
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: were like, look at them, they're on that main road.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, outside of Miami? By Miami?
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Or is that.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: I don't remember. I mean, Miami's big in all the suburbs.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: I don't remember if that was Palm Beach or not.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Anyways, Jim... was notoriously penny-pinching when it came to his wife.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: While he owned multi-million dollar properties and yachts, he scrutinized
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: every dollar Lita spent on groceries or running the household.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: He gave her a tight allowance and made her account
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: for receipts. Like, why did you even marry this woman?
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Even worse, he was unfaithful, berating mistresses in public and
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: openly telling his associates that his marriage was the only
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: reason he was being denied membership and to the most
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: exclusive elite country clubs in Palm Beach.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: You stop it. By 1985, Lita had endured enough disrespect
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: and financial manipulation. She packed her belongings, walked out of
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: the Palm Beach mansion, and moved back to her home
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: in Atlanta. She leased the townhouse on Camellia Drive, surrounded
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: herself with her loving family and friends, and filed for
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: a divorce. That's when the legal war erupted over the
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: prenuptial agreement.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this wasn't going to go down quietly
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: with that much money. Because he sounds like he spends
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of money too. So when Lita filed, Sullivan
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: brandished a prenuptial agreement signed in 1976 that gave her
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: practically nothing. A minor payout that wouldn't support her for
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: more than a few months. But Lita's attorney discovered that
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Sullivan had concealed bank accounts, shell companies, and real estate
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: holdings when she signed that paper. They filed motions to
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: have it thrown out. Under Georgia law, if the agreement
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: was voided, Lita stood to receive half of his $ 5
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: million empire and the crucial hearing was set for January 16,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: 1987 at 11 in the morning.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: Two and a half hours before the judge took the bench,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: the gunman knocked on her door. Atlanta detectives immediately contacted
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Florida law enforcement instructing officers to go straight to Sullivan's
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Oceanfront Estate in Palm Beach. When officers arrived that afternoon,
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Jim Sullivan answered the door. And he showed zero grief,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: zero emotion, and zero shock. He gave a flat statement
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: that he hadn't spoken to Lita, claimed he'd been home
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: all morning, and immediately refused to answer any further questions
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: without his attorneys present.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, this seems standard. He's divorcing her. He doesn't
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: like her. He was home all morning. There's no way
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: he got from Palm Beach to there in that amount
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: of time.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: No.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And he's rich. He's definitely not talking to anybody without
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: a lawyer. So that doesn't necessarily show that he's guilty.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: But all the other dumbassery that he's done is pointing
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: in that direction. So then there was the colossal obstacle
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: facing investigators. Jim Sullivan had an airtight alibi. He was
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: verified in Palm Beach hundreds of miles away at the
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: moment shots were fired. He couldn't have pulled that trigger himself.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Detectives knew he was the architect, but without the gun,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: the getaway car, or the identity of the shooter, the
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: criminal investigation hit a brick wall because you certainly can't
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: say you were behind this and not be able to
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: explain exactly how you did it.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Exactly. Because Lita was dead, the divorce case was dismissed.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Jim Sullivan didn't have to divide his fortune, didn't have
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: to pay alimony, and inherited her share of their marital assets.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: For years, he lived like a king down in Florida,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: entertaining guests on his yacht, and convinced he had beaten
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: the system. But Lita's parents never rested. In 1994, tired
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: of waiting on criminal warrants, her family filed a wrongful
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: death civil lawsuit in federal court.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Get them that OJ style. You got to get them
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: one way or the other.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: The civil jury found Sullivan liable and ordered him to
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: pay $ 4 million.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: $ 1.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: 5 million. That's $ 1. 5 million more.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Than he was originally going to have to give her.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: It was a massive moral victory, but Sullivan was still
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: walking around a free man.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: The real breakthrough came, but you know, that hit him.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: That hit him where it hurt, because that's all he
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: cared about was the money.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're willing to kill somebody over money. Yeah.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: The real breakthrough came 11 years after the murder in 1998.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: A national television program aired a cold case segment on
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Lita's murder. Detailing? Does detailing count?
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Drinkin'? The white florist boxed with a pink ribbon and
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: showing the police sketch of the athletic man in the
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: ball cap. Up in North Carolina, a woman was watching
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: the broadcast in her living room. She recognized the composite
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: sketch and the exact details.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Drink.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: And she picked up the phone and called the Atlanta
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: tip line. Gotcha, bitch.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: She told detectives that back in 1987, she was dating
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: a man by the name of Philip Anthony Harwood. Harwood
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: was an interstate long-haul trucker who had worked odd maintenance
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: contracts at Jim Sullivan's beverage warehouse in Georgia. She revealed
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: that around the time of the murder, Harwood suddenly came
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: into a massive stack of cash, bragging that he had
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: completed an exclusive lucrative favor for a wealthy executive in Florida.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Sounds impressive.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Sounds incriminating.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: He acts like he did some sort of, like, Like big,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: he was like a truck driver that closed a big
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: business deal or sale or something. So Atlanta cold case
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: detectives jumped on the lead. They pulled archived long-distance calling records,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: payphone logs, and toll receipts from January 1987. Back then,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: there were no cell phones, obviously. Long-haul drivers used payphones
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and collect calls, and other telephone communication companies or the
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: telephone communication companies kept meticulous paper trails. Detectives discovered that
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: at 7.45 on the morning of the murder, 45 minutes
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: before the shooting, a collect call was placed from a
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: roadside payphone outside an Atlanta diner just a couple miles
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: from Lita's townhouse.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: That collect call was placed directly to Jim Sullivan's private
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: desk phone in his Palm Beach mansion. Sullivan accepted the
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: charges and and the call lasted under a minute. Then,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: at 9.15 that morning, about 40 minutes after the murder,
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: another collect call was placed from a payphone at a
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: truck stop along Interstate 85, heading north into North Carolina.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: The recipient was once again Jim Sullivan's desk phone in
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Palm Beach. Sullivan again accepted the charges. The contract was executed.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Investigators arrested Philip Harwood in North Carolina facing the death penalty.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: He confessed everything. He admitted that Jim Sullivan offered him $ 25, 000
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: in cash to murder Lita so Sullivan wouldn't lose his
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: fortune in the divorce hearing. Listen, bro, you got this
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: over his head. Ask for more. $ 25, 000? And he's worth
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: $ 5 million or whatever. Probably worth more, but she was
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: only up for like, or yeah, $ 5 million that she
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: was up available, but I'm sure if he's buying one,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: then Palm Beach... Well, back then it wasn't as expensive,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: but still. Harwood agreed to plead guilty to voluntary manslaughter
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: and testify against Sullivan. In June of 1998, a Fulton
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: County grand jury formally indicted James Vincent Sullivan for malice murder.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: Detectives and federal marshals rushed to Sullivan's Palm Beach mansion
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: to serve the murder warrant, but Sullivan was gone. He
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: had caught wind of Harwood's arrest. liquidated assets, packed suitcases
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: full of cash, and vanished into thin air. That triggered
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: an international manhunt that stretched across four grueling years and
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: three different continents. The FBI immediately placed James Sullivan on
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: their ten most wanted fugitives list. Federal agents tracked his
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: financial movements, but he was savvy. He moved through Costa Rica, Panama,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: and Venezuela, opening shell corporations and wire-transferring funds through international banks,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: before the American authorities could freeze his accounts.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Now, Sullivan wasn't just hopping borders. He was completely remaking
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: his identity. Because what's crazy to me is this guy
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: is able to do all this, has all this money,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Ivy League education, and he put all of his trust
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: in some random truck driver who was going to, like,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: keep it together.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: For $ 25, 000. Yes, or wasn't going to run his mouth.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just silly. Anyways, because his grandparents had
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Irish heritage, Sullivan managed to acquire a legitimate Irish passport
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: under an altered legal profile. With an Irish passport in hand,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: he could travel through Europe and Asia without triggering American
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: passport control alerts. For nearly four years, the FBI and
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Interpol chased ghosts following reports of sightings in Latin America
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and Mediterranean ports. but Sullivan wasn't hiding in the shadows
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: or living like a desperate fugitive in a cheap motel.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Of course he wasn't. He took his fortune and settled
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: into the lap of luxury on the other side of
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the globe, which he could learn pretty good over there.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: Yes, especially since he ended up in Thailand. Specifically, he
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: chose Cha Am as a gorgeous high-end beach resort town
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: located about 100 miles south of Bangkok along the Gulf
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: of Thailand.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: If you're local.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: If you're local. It was a haven for wealthy international
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: retirees and expats. Sullivan purchased a luxurious multi-story oceanfront condominium
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: overlooking the water. He opened local bank accounts, acquired a
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Thai driver's license, and began living openly under an assumed name.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: He even married a local Thai woman half his age
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: who managed his household and accompanied him to upscale beachside
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: restaurants and private social clubs. He spent his day sunbathing, swimming,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: and sipping expensive drinks on his private balcony, utterly convinced
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: that the Atlanta Police Department and the FBI could never
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: touch him across the 8,000 miles of ocean.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Well, he also probably thought they just gave up, too.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, to me, really, though, I am always
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: surprised when they continue to hunt these people down. I'm like, wow,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: you guys, I just figured you guys would, like, give
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: up at some point.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Like, you're going to run out of money. Do you
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: have money to keep pursuing that?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: I know. It's just like, I don't know. I just
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: always am surprised that they spend years doing this. Cause
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: then you see some of these cold cases and it's
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: literally been sitting there untouched for 20 years until someone's like, fine,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I'll pay for it to get processed. And then they
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: catch the guy right away. It's been down the street
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: from wherever it happened. And here they are trying to
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: get this guy. I'm guessing the FBI has a lot
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: more endless government funds than.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Probably.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Yes. Then a state. Anyways, where was he? Oh, He
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: might have lived out the rest of his days in
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: the tropical paradise if it weren't for the power of syndication.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: In the spring of 2002, the television program America's Most
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Wanted broadcast an international segment highlighting James Sullivan. They're like,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: we will get you. Flashing his photographs, his distinctive features,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: and his background as an American fugitive wanted for a
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: contract murder. If you were living in Thailand, saw the broadcast,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: and recognized the wealthy American living in Cha Am... condo community.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: The viewer contacted the FBI's legal office in Bangkok and
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: gave them the exact address to find old James. They
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: will find you. TV will get you, bad boy, bad boy.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: The FBI immediately contacted the Royal Thai Police and the
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Crime Suppression Division in Bangkok. Thai authorities launched an undercover
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: operation placing Sullivan's condominium under round-the-clock surveillance for several weeks.
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: The detectives photographed him walking on the beach, buying groceries,
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: and entertaining guests, confirming his identity against FBI fingerprint and
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: facial profiles. Finally, on Tuesday evening, July 2, 2002, Thai
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: police commandos and federal agents moved in, surrounding the beachfront
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: condominium and placing James Sullivan under arrest. After four years
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: on the run, his luxury exile and lifestyle were over.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, but getting Sullivan back onto American soil turned into
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: a two-year diplomatic and legal nightmare. You see, the bilateral
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: extradition treaty between Thailand and the United States contains an
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: absolute non-negotiable clause regarding capital punishment. Under the law, government
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: will not surrender any individual facing the death penalty in
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: another country unless the prosecuting government provides formal written diplomatic
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: guarantees that capital punishment will not be sought or imposed.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Sullivan's international defense attorney seized upon this treaty provision, filing
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: endless legal appeals in Thai courts to block his return.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: This is a common thing.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Like Mexico even has one. Are they just... Yeah, they.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: Put that in place. Yeah, they don't have the death
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: penalty there, and they won't extradite you to somewhere where
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: you could.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: But you don't want to end up in a Mexican prison,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: that's for sure.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Or... Battling the cartels, because the cartels will give you
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: the death penalty.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: No matter what. While those legal battles dragged on, Sullivan
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: was held in Thailand's notorious Khlong Prim Central Prison, often
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: referred to by inmates as the Bangkok Hilton. It was
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: a brutal, overcrowded, maximum security penitentiary with stifling heat, minimal sanitation,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: and strict conditions.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: He's like, fuck it, I'll go for the death penalty.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: I'll take my chances.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: It'll probably get overturned. It'll take decades before they actually
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: do this. I do not want to be here.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: The contrast between his oceanfront condo and a concrete cell
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: in the prison was a stark difference. For two years,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Sullivan fought extradition from that cell. He was hoping that
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: the charges would collapse or that the American prosecutors would
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: waive the death penalty so that he could get life
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: in prison, or less. The legal maneuverings inside the Bangkok
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: courts were intense. Sullivan had hired high-priced Thai defense barristers
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: who argued that the American legal system was inherently biased
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: against him due to media sensationalism.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Who caused the media sensationalism, okay? Who caused it?
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: They argued that because Georgia prosecutors initially filed capital murder
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: charges against Any promise to waive the death penalty was
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: a procedural trick that could be reversed once Sullivan was
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: back on American soil. The United States Department of State
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: and Department of Justice had to prepare binding diplomatic assurances
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: signed by senior federal officials and the Fulton County District
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: Attorney affirming that under no circumstances would the state of
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Georgia seek or enforce the death penalty against James Sullivan.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Is the Thai government really going to follow up on
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: this afterwards?
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: I guess they'll find out if he has, and then
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: if they get to anybody else, they're like, well, we
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: ain't sending him there, ever.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's like, what are you going to do? Really? But, like,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: are they going to, like, follow through and check up
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: on James Sullivan in 10 years?
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Well, it'll be in the news if they're like, yeah,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: and then... Thailand will be like, okay, well, we're never
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: going to extradite anybody back to the U.S. So everybody
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: that murders somebody is like, well, let's go to Thailand
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: because we'll never get extradited.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that Thailand would eventually give in to
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: the demands of the United States. Too many murders showing up. Yes,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: you want to harbor all the murders?
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: That's where I go if I was a murderer and
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: they're like, we ain't extraditing.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: No, because all the murderers are going to be like, oh,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: my God, what? They're going to end up in this prison,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: this Bangkok Hilton. They're going to be like, please, just
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: send me back to the United States already. I'll take
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: the death penalty. And they're like, no, sorry, you.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: I get that sell all to myself. Anyway, where am
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: I at? It took months of diplomatic cable exchanges between
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: the United States Embassy in Bangkok and the Thai Ministry
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: of Justice before the Thai judiciary was satisfied that the
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: treaty requirements were met.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Now, back in Atlanta, Fulton County prosecutors had a profound
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: decision to make. Emery and Joanne McClinton had waited 15
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: years for their daughter's killer to be brought before a jury.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Prosecutors knew that if they insisted on seeking the death penalty,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Sullivan would likely remain locked in the Thai legal appeals
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: indefinitely or die in a foreign prison without ever being
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: convicted in a Georgia courtroom. Which I'm just saying, I
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: feel like that's a worse punishment.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Yes. Living there?
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. After consulting with Lita's family, the Fulton County District
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Attorney took the death penalty off the table and submitted
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: formal diplomatic waivers to the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: Now, wait a minute, though. If Atlanta's like, okay, fine,
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: we're not going to give up the death penalty, are
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: they really going to keep him in jail?
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: He hasn't committed a crime in Thailand. I would think
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: they'd keep him in jail. He could just go back
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: to his whatever.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Stu. I didn't research that for us.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: I'm just spitballing.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, just spitball.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: He might have just gotten out and gone back to
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: his compound.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think they just release you.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: He didn't commit a crime in Thailand.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: But they hold him, though.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: That's only because the United States government wants him.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: No, but if they refuse to waive the death penalty,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I think he's stuck in like a legal limbo and
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: he can't leave prison there. Because Thailand, I'm sure, has
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: agreements with the U.S. saying, well, we won't release your
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: person until we come to an agreement.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: So.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: But I mean, if they're like, no, we're not going
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: to bend on this death penalty thing, and they're like, well.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Then their part of the bargain is... Our part of
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: the bargain was we're not going to waive the death penalty,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: so we can't accept him back. But your part of
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: the bargain is that he has committed a murder over here,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: so you have to keep him in prison over there.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that's part of the thing. It's like you
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: can't refuse to send back a murderer because you don't
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: like how we're going to go through with the prime
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: and punishment of it all. But you can't just release
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: him back into your country.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: I'm sure somebody at the Department of State or Department
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: of Justice that listens to this podcast will write in
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: and let us know. Or we could Google it and
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: find out. That sounds like work on our part. With
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: capital punishment obstacle removed, the Thai Court of Appeals granted
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: the extradition petition. In March of 2004, federal marshals took
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: custody of Sullivan at Bangkok International Airport And boarded a
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: flight back to the United States. That has got to
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: be terrible. You're on an international flight. They're already terrible enough.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Now you're on a flight going to jail from one
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: country to another. When the plane touched down at Hartfield-Jackson Airport.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: He just got out of that Thai prison, Stu. He's
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: probably happy to have airplane food.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Right. A 62-year-old limping gray-haired James Sullivan was led down
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: the stairs in handcuffs. surrounded by television cameras and police escorts,
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: and he was booked into the Fulton County Jail. 17
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: years after the murder, he was finally behind bars in
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Atlanta for that crime.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Two years later, in March of 2006, the criminal trial
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: of the state of Georgia versus James Vincent Sullivan officially
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: began in Fulton County Superior Court. The courtroom was packed
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: to the gills with family, journalists, and spectators. Prosecutors laid
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: out a methodical, devastating case. They put Philip Harwood on
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: the stand, who looked Sullivan right in the eye and
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: described the cash payments, the floral box disguise, and the
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: direct instructions he received from Sullivan to carry out the hit.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: The prosecution introduced the Archive Bell South payphone tow logs,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: showing the jury the exact minute-by-minute timeline, the 745 collect
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: call from the Atlanta Diner payphone, to Sullivan's desk in
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: Palm Beach, and the 9-15 collect call from the interstate
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: truck stop confirming the deed was done. They introduced the
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: testimony from the divorce attorneys, establishing that Sullivan stood to
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: lose half of his fortune at 11 o'clock that morning.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: The motive was financial preservation. The execution was a contract murder.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: The defense team mounted an aggressive fight. They argued that
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Harwood was a convicted felon who cut a plea deal
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: to avoid the electric chair, claiming his testimony was bought
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: and paid for. They claimed the circumstantial payphone records couldn't
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: prove that words were exchanged during those brief 60-second calls
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: and that they tried to portray Sullivan as a grieving,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: respectable businessman who just spent the last four years, six
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: years hiding in Thailand, being scapegoated because of his wealth.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: That kind of goes against an upstanding businessman.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: Well, he was an innocent man. He wasn't going to
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: let the system take him down. He had to go
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: on the run. Just like in The Fugitive. When Harrison Ford,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: he didn't kill his wife, but Tommy Lee Jones did
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: not care.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: I haven't, I'm sure I've seen it, but it's been
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: a long time.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: It's been a hot minute, as the kids would say.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: The jury deliberated for less than an hour. When they
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: walked back into the courtroom, the foreperson handed the verdict
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: to the judge.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Remember that time I was the foreperson? Yes.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm surprised you don't mention it more often.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: He was guilty on all counts, including malice murder. Because
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: the death penalty had been waived during the extradition, the
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: judge handed down the maximum possible sentence, life in prison
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: without the possibility of parole. In 2008, the Georgia Supreme
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: Court unanimously rejected his appeals and cementing his conviction for
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: the rest of his natural life.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: They're like, listen, motherfucker, you know how much money you
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: cost us and time and everything? We're not going to.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: We had to put U.S. Marshals on an airplane in Thailand.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Jesus, this is ridiculous.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Sullivan is currently serving that sentence inside Macon State Prison,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: just miles from where he first built his fortune.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: All right, that is our case out of Georgia, Stu.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Justice will finally get you one way or the other.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: It's like all these people getting caught here for DNA
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: swabs from... Murders years ago. I think they just caught
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: another one.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: I would have to look it up, but yes, they did.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Alright, do you have a Yaldi, Jesus?
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, am I boring you?
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Don't get tired.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: Am I boring you, Kara?
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Maybe. Are you ready?
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: No, I don't know where it went.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: If anybody, you ready?
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, I'm ready.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Go.
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: From People's Magazine. Wednesday, October 7th, 2026, Kara. From Charna
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: Flam at People Magazine. Woman who says she hates kids.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: Allegedly posed as a substitute teacher because she was bored,
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: police say. Florida or not Florida.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: She hated children so much she posed as a substitute teacher?
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Did she actually sign up to be a substitute teacher
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: or she just pretended to be one?
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: She just showed up at the school one morning because...
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: What the hell? And she said, I'm here as a substitute.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: Florida or not Florida? Not Florida. A 23-year-old woman has
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: been accused of posing as a substitute teacher because she
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: was bored. Amy Jones was charged with five counts of
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: exposing a child to harmful descriptions and one count of
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: impersonating a public employee on Sunday, October 4, in relation
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: to the alleged incident that occurred September 24th, according to
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: court records. Jones allegedly scouted Milwaukee, that'd be Wisconsin, public schools,
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Rufus King International High School, one week before the incident.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: She is a former Rufus King student, and according to
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: a criminal complaint, she got past school security by blending
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: in with students. During the initial visit, she overheard faculty
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: discussing a substitute teaching agency. Then on September 24th, eight
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: teachers were absent and seven substitutes were on staff. Jones,
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: in quotations, I'm guessing somebody at the school said this,
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: got lucky because there happened to be an unfilled position,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: Principal Doreen Badillo said. And Jones posed and signed in
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: as a substitute teacher Jones then went to a classroom
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: that was previously set up by a different teacher who
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: stayed with Jones for 20 minutes. After the teacher left,
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: Jones allegedly asked the students if anyone had any marijuana
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: or a vape, per the criminal complaint. She told the
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: class I was so fucking lame and annoying. Or she
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: told the class it was so fucking lame and annoying.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: She allegedly organized students by race and gender and said
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: racial slurs and profanities. She also allegedly told a student
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: to shut the fuck up. Jones also dissed the kids
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: for their weight, their race, their physical appearance, and money.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: She's just trying to bring back good old-fashioned bullying to
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: try to get some kids to maybe tighten up on
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: their diets, not be such dumbasses, and be a little cooler,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe. Additionally, she bragged about having felonies and being okay
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: with going to jail, per the criminal complaint. Her comments
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: were making the whole class uncomfortable, and after the first class,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: students alerted the faculty. Principal Bedillo called the substitute teacher
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: agency and they confirmed Jones was not their employee. Authorities
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: arrived at the school and escorted her out. She spoke
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: to officers after the incident and allegedly... How are you just.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Going to get to be able to walk into a
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: school like that?
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. The security around the school is
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: really tight. All these school shooters and they're like, yeah,
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: come on in. She spoke to officers after the incident
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: and allegedly said she posed as a teacher because she
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: was bored. Jones also said she hates kids and just
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: wanted to fuck around. Badillo issued a statement to the
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: school's students and parents confirming that the Milwaukee Police Department
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: school resource officers and the district's Title IX coordinator have
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: been alerted. Badillo also confirmed that the district is investigating
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: the incident separately from the Milwaukee Police Department. Jones was
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: scheduled to appear in court on Tuesday, October 6th. She
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: will next appear in court for her prelim on October 20th.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: People reached out to the Milwaukee Police Department and Rufus
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: King International High School for comment. So this crazy bitch
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: just shows up. Sounds like if you go to the
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Rufus King, you can get away with all kinds of
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: goofy shit over there. Just roll up, say you're a substitute,
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: and insult the students.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just a typical Tuesday.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Hey, Fatty, you got any marijuana?
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: All right, so I did a little research.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: You got any more, Kara? You got anything else, Kara?
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, I did a little research while you were over
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: there to find out what would have happened if they
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: had not agreed to take the death penalty off the table.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I just want to clarify, too, that it was still
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: a death penalty case. So they just couldn't. They had
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: already started the proceedings back when they charged him with
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: the grand jury like it was a death penalty case.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: But the jury had three options. They had the death penalty,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: life without parole, and life with parole. They did have
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: the death penalty option, which they chose not to do
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: that anyways because they didn't want to be doing that,
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: I guess. But they could have found him guilty with
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: the death penalty, but the state of Georgia would have
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: never been able to actually follow through with it.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Because of the extradition agreement.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: But if he had... if they had refused to waive
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: the death penalty or whatever, he, so under Thai extradition law,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: foreign fugitives cannot be held indefinitely in local jails while
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: a diplomatic standoff plays out. At the time of the
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Sullivan's legal battles, Thai courts explicitly ruled that if an
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: extradition petition was not fully cleared and executed within a
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: specific timeframe, often a matter of months, the prisoner had
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: to be legally released. No wonder he was fighting. He's like,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: I'll just suffer through this.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: I'll suffer through this. I'll eat these cockroaches and deal
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: with these people and lack of water and sewage facilities.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: So basically, he would have remained a.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: He couldn't be easily re-arrested on the same U.S. warrant
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: after that. He's basically a free fugitive is what they
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: call him because he'd already successfully used his... well, to
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: like buy high-end real estate, obtain a resident visa, and
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: marry a local Thai woman, he likely would have spent
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: his remaining years living comfortably in Thailand.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: He would have never been able to travel anywhere, but
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: I think he would have been okay with that if
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: he would have avoided prison.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: And apparently, most of the time when the U.S. tries
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: to play, has to like go at this, they usually lose.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: They just have to give in at some point because
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: they just won't send it back.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: And.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: They'll just live out there. Life in the lap of
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: luxury or at least a free person.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so basically that was at the point they were at.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: They were probably running out of time. They're like, we
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: either have to just accept this and move on or
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: he's going to be living in Thailand for fuck's sake.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Living the dream.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Living La Vida Loca. Yeah.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: We should go to Thailand.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: We should.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I hear it's, you can get, the problem is getting
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: over there because it's not expensive. I see all these
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: hotels like Bali, Thailand, all them beautiful hotels.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. It's the flights.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: For cheap. It's the flights.
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: They're ridiculous.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: And they're long.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: Especially with four children. Yeah.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: So.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: I'll just go by myself. I'll go do some recon,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: see how it goes. I'll go check it out.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: See what's going on over there. Okay. And then I'll
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: come back. I'll report out for you guys. I'll do
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: a report out.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: That's mighty nice of you.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: You know, because my work now is all about deliverables
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: and report outs.
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: So I'll do that. And then in 10 to 12 years,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: you guys can come back. With me. Anyways. All right.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I got to go to bed.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Do you have anything else to add, Steve?
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: I don't. We have to go. All right. We have
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: to go do some anniversary stuff.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: No, we don't. Sleep. Yes.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: Yes. All of our children are sleeping.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bed. I actually have to get this
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: episode ready to go out first thing in the morning.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: So that it appears we're on top of things when
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: we're asking for.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: I was going to say. What do you mean we're
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: asking for what?
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: New Patreons.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Okay. I was going to say, speaking of the Patreons,
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: I did make one of the mason jars this week,
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: this Monday. I spent, that's why the Little S Mess
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: was late because I spent all my time working.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: Five hours.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: No, it wasn't five hours. My problem was I bought
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: special vinyl to make it and the vinyl wasn't working. Finally,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: as soon as I gave up on that, it was
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: like super easy, but I had to, so they're going
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: to say the porch crew and then bless this mess.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: I was planning on making them myself, but Stu thinks
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: we should just buy them from someplace. So I don't
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: know what we're going to do. But I will get
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: back to you guys. He's supposed to be sourcing. You
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: need to source them then and send in the file
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: and everything for the logo.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: He's saying I need to come up with some deliverables.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, you need some deliverables. You need to report out.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: You need to circle back. You need to parking lot this.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: I ain't no circle back, girl.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: You need to take this offline. Anyways, it's a lot
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: of corporate jargon these days. I hear....
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: I'm not hearing a lot of synergy going on here.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: We need to synergize. We need to optimize. We need
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: to accessorize.
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: Who the hell do you know? Jesse Jackson?
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: All right. All right. I think that's it. It's getting
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: goofy around here.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: It is. It is.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: All right. Well, we will see. Oh, stay safe. Lock
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: your doors. Keep that porch light on.
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: Bye, everyone.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: Say bye, Stu.
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: Bye, Stu.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Don't you know it's bad luck to be superstitious. But
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: nothing else is working. And my head is really hurting.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: And I'm sick of all this worrying about things I
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: can't control.