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Transcript

Can getting lost get you found? /// FOLLOW · FOLLOW

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: What is it about these pilgrimages that activates something?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: There is something that as Westerners, maybe we don't think of our spiritual life connected to our bodies.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Again, as evangelicals, we typically have thought most of our spiritual lives are between our ears and just thoughts.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Upheaval or the rug being pulled under our feet or those moments can actually be great gifts because you learn stuff, you work stuff out, and you discover what is true, which then allows you to bring that learning back into your real life.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that now when I find myself being lost, I go, Oh, this is a chance for me to be found.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the follow-up podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus was right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he said is true.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what we're exploring.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: All that Jesus said was true and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Steve Carter.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hey parts.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: What's up, brother?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Not much, man.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good too.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've been uh eating lettuce a lot.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've been eating tree bark.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I've been doing.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've been eating tree bark and lettuce and beet salads.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, bro, trust me.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: I went to lunch with you, you had a cheeseburger.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know like the amount of spiritual discipline it took to not curse you and hate you?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I'm having a beet salad and you're having a cheeseburger.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um man.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: You'll live longer.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, like we were in Italy.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh me and a buddy took this little trip.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it was a really beautiful trip.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he had gone through a ton last spring, and um, I just want to get away.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: He needed some time, and so we're like, dude, what if we like rode motorcycles over from one side of Italy to the other?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: We got this super cheap ticket.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, didn't have our motorcycle license, so we had to get like 125cc scooters, right?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Which is not a motorcycle, by the way.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: For those of you that are listening who are motorcycle drivers like Carter, you're like, uh, not a motorcycle.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um He was like dumb and Dumber.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, bro, it was my back hurt for a week.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not joking because I mean you have to sit straight up.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine just getting flown by.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you could and we were highways.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: At one point, I'm like, who is the idiot that planned this trip?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, the idiot was me.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: What is it about pilgrimage?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Bro, there is something, right?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've said this on the podcast.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a seven on the Enneagram.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So if you were to tell us, say right now, hey bro, do you wanna you wanna fly to Italy?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be like, or anywhere, I mean anywhere, where you want to go?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be like, Yeah, sure, I'll go.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do that.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I was thinking about this trip, and that it's our producer who was with me, and I'm like, man, we spent seven days together, and all we did is talk.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's what we did.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Stood in the water, talked, um, went to dinner, talked.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you don't get that these days, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we we just don't get those these days.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: But there was something spiritual in um, I mean, there was something spiritual in driving those scooters across Italy because we didn't get run over.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, just the fact that we did not get run over was nothing short of a minor miracle.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I I don't know, Carter.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: We've we've had a lot of talk about you know spiritual formation, and I think we often reduce it down to just the ways in which we think, and that spiritual is ethereal, right?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's misty, but there is something to the physical movement um on what we would call pilgrimage, right?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you've experienced some of this, like pilgrimage.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean, I think there were the six great feasts for the Jewish people, and they'd return to Jerusalem.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So no matter where you lived, that was kind of the expectation to to to head back.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I think there's something really, really powerful um about that journey.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually done in community.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one, because it was safer, but two, um the connection, the talking, the processing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think something just happens as as we move.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're we're kind of thrust out of the daily routine and into a different rhythm where we're all kind of like experiencing something new.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even if we had been to Italy before, it's you've never seen it from a 125cc uh scooter.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, um, and so it's it's it's just different.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think you're at a different point in life.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the ongoing pilgrimage was a um like a mile marker of of life and a mile marker of the the formation of those festivals.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we've gotten away with that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: You see this in California and uh like where where we live were the where almost the creation of the missions, you know.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so down the Cino de Real or the real way, they were all of these missions that um and people would make those treks.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, similar to like West Michigan, of people making the treks from Harbor Town to Harbor Town around the lake.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um there they're we we have our kind of variation of it.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think when you can start to just work some stuff out, do your best to define really clearly because we're probably got a lot of listeners that are like, wait a minute, pilgrimage.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: What what is that?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: What are you talking about?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Are you talking about a missions trip?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, are you talking about a vacation?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, like how would you define this for someone who doesn't have much rooting in um, you know, maybe a tradition like our Catholic brothers and sisters, or um maybe even some of the mainline denominations, episcopal churches, etc., that might have a little bit better understanding of um that sort of spiritual practice.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: How would you how would you help them understand it?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, each of the Jewish festivals had a specific theme.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take Yom Kippur, Leviticus 16, the Day of Atonement, it was the day where the communal sins of the people were placed on the scapegoat, and that goat was like released out, never to return, as well as um the high priest would enter into the most holy place and scatter blood on the mercy seat, the the cover of the Ark of the Covenant.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: This was a time for you to go back and and be a part of the cleansing of the entire sins of your people.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I say that it's like if you live 50 miles away, you would walk back and you would know that I'm walking with intention and with purpose to be reminded that the communal sins that I am a part of are cleansed.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: For the next year.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it was your you you you brought your body into it.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: You weren't you weren't just taught it.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and part of that would be you you processing.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I love about the Jewish narrative of how they retell the the Hebrew scriptures is we tell it as all the Hebrews uh people were enslaved in Egypt.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but if you listen to like a a Jewish woman or man tell that story, they'll say, When we were enslaved in Egypt, they write themselves back into the stories.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So even as they're on the pilgrimage, walking back is when like teaching their kids um, what what in this past year did you do that would fell short of the heart of God?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I did this, this, and this.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And this day is why we head to the temple to be reminded that we are okay before God, that God sees us and we are we are at one with God.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there was like an intention.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Great pilgrimage is movement on purpose, um, where you're working something theologically, something emotionally, something mentally, um, something entrepreneurially, like through your body.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and with community.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: We see this idea of pilgrimage within uh the Jewish community.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we see it in the Christian community.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like you start seeing this third, fourth century where uh people began to visit these sites around Jesus' birth, his life, his death, his resurrection, right?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, like this is not just a Jewish tradition, it became a Christian tradition where we would um go right ourselves in the story by being in these places.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the Camino, which is uh uh a journey that you've been on, and I can't wait for you to talk about it because it's I just love, I love this.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is something that literally millions of Christians have journeyed on, one of six routes, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: One of six routes, yeah.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think it's six, um, but it looks like a clam when you when you've walked it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So um you walked this in 2024.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think 22, I think.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe 22.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, maybe 22, 23.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's 22.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: So talk about your experience with this and talk about it because most of our audience is probably evangelical, and this might be like a new concept.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me about your journey.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so a couple thoughts.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: One is you're you're spot on.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: People would um often head to Jerusalem um to see where Christ was born, buried, you know, Belarosa, go to Bethlehem, all of that.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the early centuries, um Jerusalem like today was very dangerous.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the act of pilgrimage, though, was so important that they weren't gonna walk into a difficult area.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the the question being, well, where could we go?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um Saint James um, who brought the gospel to Spain, um, the legend, the lore was that his bones were at this cathedral.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so people were like, and why you said the clam, or there's so many different routes, because people came from uh France, people came from Portugal, people came from like all these different ways to participate in the sacred act of walking with intention, with a purpose to work out something spiritually, theologically, emotionally, mentally, blah blah blah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so um walking this, I did with uh nine other friends, and your whole life is in a backpack.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: We stayed in hostels, um, it was about 125 miles we we walked.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: We did the spiritual variant, so it's the coastal route, spiritual variant, which is means you follow the actual path of they believe that St.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: James took to bring the gospel to Spain.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I was the only person from the Midwest, everyone else was from the West Coast.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I was up two hours earlier than everybody else, and so 5 a.m., I'm like wide awake, and that everyone else is still sleeping, and I just would get up and I would walk and in the pitch black, and I knew where I was headed because all you're doing is following these, you know, yellow arrows and these yellow shells.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Arrows, there are shells, shells, and then as you walk through these towns, there are different places and points that you interact with right.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just I would walk and then you'd stop and you get a cup of coffee and um journal and continue to walk.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it's almost like a little bit of like a lazy river.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I love about a lazy river river is um you might start with a group of people, doesn't mean you're gonna finish with that same group of people, but like other people start to come in and they're like rolling with you for a little bit, and then they pull off and you keep going, and another group of people come.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and you just I met every continent but Antarctica.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I met someone from and walked with.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're just walking, and everyone just when they saw you, they'd say buen camino, which means the good way, and and you just start talking and what le what brought you to the Camino?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I I had uh a death of a family member and just trying to work that out.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, tell me more.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: What was and some of the most richest conversations because you know it's it's like as we're walking, we're like working out and processing, and um, and so I would probably do anywhere from 12 miles to 18 miles a day, and then we would all end up um at the host hostel and usually at like a dinner spot and a charcuterie board, and we'd just process what we heard and what we felt.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: One day I was walking, and again, your whole life is on your your back, and and people tell you when you pilgrimage, um, travel lightly and you don't need as much as you think you do.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so just trying to look- I don't need like multiple pairs of sneakers.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, you only need one pair, multiple uh pairs of socks, but you only need like one pair of shoes.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: But uh walking, uh I walked a long ways without seeing any yellow arrows and yellow shells, and I realized I'm on a freeway overpass.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just walking, and all of a sudden, this lady who's on the other side of the road, slowing down on the highway, just goes, Are you looking for the Camino?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yes, I'm I have no idea where I am.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, You passed it.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I thought I did, and she gives me directions, and and I realized like what came up from me.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have cell phone reception, I wasn't with my friends, I was lost, and I don't like to be lost.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And as I'm processing this with the group of guys, I'll never forget my friend John Huckins just goes, Steve, but if you never get lost, you can never be found.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh my gosh.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so often part of our Western formation is in such certainty and prevention of ever feeling lost.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then we don't allow ourselves to be found by the goodness of God, and that's when upheaval or the rug being pulled under our feet or those moments can actually be great gifts because you learn stuff, you work stuff out, and and you discover what is true, which then allows you to bring that learning back into your real life.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the fact that now when I find myself being lost, I go, oh, this is a chance for me to be found.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I I I have had people say, Now why would I do this?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, it's sort of like structured disorientation.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's really good, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good, right?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Where you're like, okay, I don't know this route, I don't quite know the way.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now there are there are signs and there are shells and there are pilgrims, but um, I think we underestimate the value of moving out of the familiar.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and now look, uh, I'll just say this.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: We don't believe that walking on this route makes you any more holy or brings you any closer to God.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: But what it does do, that structured disorientation does bring up different types of feelings.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it really, I really do believe like um it gives us we ask different questions, yeah, right.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I that's how I see it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's like a structured disorientation.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you it just if anyone uh they're like, I'm not gonna get off on a flight and fly to Portugal, totally get it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's no there's no pressure, and like Eric says, yeah, like Eric says, you're not holy for doing that or not doing it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say is um I practiced in the mornings at 5 a.m.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: walking in the pitch black in our nature preserve.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was scary.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're like, all of a sudden, like one, you know, coyotes are walking by me, and I'm like, what in the world?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you recognize, or when I was out in the desert and walking those trails, and you'd hear like the rattles of a rattlesnake, you just all of this stuff that um a structured disorientation of walking with intention.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's it's just um there's something about it, and it's hard.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's part of like the mystery of it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also why people have been doing it for centuries, centuries, literally, and it's been a it's it's been a forgotten, neglected practice.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it is because especially in our world today, we're always on.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So now, and and here's the other side I didn't know where I was staying that night.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: So say it what how would it work?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So so basically, I just I had a goal.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: We had a goal of where we wanted to meet up.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, and we were on WhatsApp, but we didn't know if it was gonna be pouring rain, so you didn't book all because if you were off one day, you you you wouldn't be able to you're in trouble.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: You've already booked all these rooms.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, you're like, we're getting here, weather seems good, we can get there.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: First person there made sure that they got the rooms for us all, you know.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it was kind of like you were living in the moment.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: You stopped when you needed to stop, you journaled when you needed to journal, you you know, there was nothing that was like tyranny of the urgent.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was to be present to the moment and to be honest with what was coming up.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, outside of some key relationships and moments with spiritual directors or therapy, um the act of pilgrimage was so good for my healing um post-2018 to help me to where I am today.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Was this the first time that you walked the Camino?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: First time walked the Camino.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um did you have I I know you talked about one of them, but did you have like um one or two additional like just aha's where um either about the walk or something uh internally happened?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Was there anything that you look back on even and go, man, um this really uh shifted in me, changed in me.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so part of the spiritual variant, you you um end up going up this massive hill, and you're probably still a day, uh two days' journey from the cathedral that you're getting to.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: But on the top of this hill is a monastery with a Catholic Church.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these nuns put on a service every night, and then you can go into this smaller cathedral, it's just stunning, um, and just sit and and silence.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, it was my birthday, but I I had heard someone say that uh between the ages of 38 and 43 are the hardest um five years in a man's life.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're moving from first half of life to second half of life, you're moving from ambition to an elder, you're moving from a place of recognizing my body's changing, my um, I'm not as far along as I thought I would be.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um you usually lose a parent during this time.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's like there's there's just a lot of big questions of having to to come to reality.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So on this date, on top of this hill, is my 43rd birthday.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just remember sitting in this cathedral in silence, and I was really carrying the five people that I felt had wounded and hurt me, and was trying to work through what forgiveness looked like for them.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And a few of them in particular were much harder for me to really like tap into without sadness or anger or the total grief, um, five stages of grief.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember having spent that whole day just thinking about this.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Walking up, it was pouring rain.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I had like trash can made poncho, you know, it's super minimalist, like, just was brutal.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Walking up, like with my best friend Tommy, and um, and then I find myself like in this this service, and these nuns are leading it.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anything that they're saying.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, but I'm but I'm connecting to something, and then I just go sit in silence, and then I out of like my mouth, like the only words that I say are I love you, and I name each of the five people.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if you ever had like a moment where like you you say something out loud and you're like, what the did I really say that?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, because that that's like the farthest thing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Tree trip and farthest thing since 2018 that I had felt, and and I could just in that moment I just broke down and I just was like this um, I don't know, it was like this shift, like something locked into oh my gosh, like I made it to the other side of those five years, and like I'm I forgave them, and I'm like, I can now head to the cathedral.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it just from that moment I just realized like I was traveling a lot lighter, I didn't need as much as I thought I did for the truck, and that's that's kind of like the gift of what you leave that you've been carrying that you don't need to carry, that you thought you had to bring, you don't need to bring anymore.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many moments like that, or so many moments of just watching my friends process through stuff, or working stuff out with them, um, and watching them like you know, say something or ask a hard question, or um, or just experience like joy or delight, or um, or them having to face their own grief or sadness.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just you just realize like there's something mysteriously weighty about that act of pilgrimage, and um, and I want to like be really intentional about it, and so um trying to add this more as a more regular, uh it's it can't be every year.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I wish I I had those resources, but I but I think it can be every few years, yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be uh waking up early and and walking in the nature preserve um the six miles and just saying, getting my, you know, I I always will say 10k by 10A, um you you know, you're gonna live longer.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But like you you have that you just have that moment of just letting working it out, you know.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I wonder, and maybe um I'll tell this story, but and when when when I come back from the story, um maybe answer this question what is it about the spiritual pilgrimage that brings about that?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's that story, there's a reason why people continue to bring their body into this space.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: But um, it's not an official pilgrimage, but our producer he'll remember, Luke and I.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: We were in Vietnam.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so we were cruising out.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was a really funny day um where we went to the beach in Vietnam.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: We had been on a trip to Cambodia visiting a medical mission space, and uh we cruised over to Vietnam a couple days before we left, and the the beach was torn up, and we ended up renting little scooters again.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, and so we're cruising down the down down the coast, and there's this um, I think, I think it's Our Lady of La Vang is the monument.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: We passed it, and it's a big, it's a hill, and at the top of the hill um is this statue so of um uh the statue of Mary and Jesus, right?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh we cruise down, then we turn around, we come back, and there's a Catholic monastery at the foot of this, and we're like, you know what?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: We should walk up that hill.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so me and Luke and Jeremy start up this hill.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first off, um it was an optical illusion.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: We looked at it and we're like, oh yeah, we'll get up to the top of that, and it'll be you know, like uh be a neat moment.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: We'll take a picture, bro.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was 90 degrees.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we start trekking up this thing.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: All I know is, man, we're halfway up, and it's like one of the you ever been on one of those where you're um on a hike where you're like, okay, we're really close over this ridge, and you get to the ridge and you're like, oh, there's another three ridges.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it felt like.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: We're just like, oh, uh Jeremy didn't even make it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to shame him.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but however long it took, I'm beetred, sweating, and we get up to the very top, and um I we didn't even intend it necessarily to be spiritual, but you get up there and your body, you're tired, and you, you know, it wasn't 125 miles, but I remember like putting my arm around Luke and we both took a knee and we prayed up in that space, it felt sacred.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: There is something that as Westerners, maybe, we don't think of our spiritual life connected to our bodies.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we just don't think about it that way.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder, like, um, well, why?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And secondly, you know, what is it about these pilgrimages that activate something?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is such a important conversation because it showcases um our lack of good theology around the incarnation of Christ.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um connected to our um I'm not gonna say hatred of our bodies, but definitely our shame of our bodies and shame of this world.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um because so much of uh evangelicalism has been, you know, get this ticket to escape here and go there.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And which which then makes it seem like everything here is bad is bad.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this is connected to the flesh.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: It it's also true that Paul says, No, do you not know that your body's a temple of the Holy Spirit?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: So so I I think Jesus actually weeping, Jesus actually having margin in this day, Jesus actually praying, Jesus actually um speaking to power, Jesus actually kind of inviting people into the kingdom, all of that um, Jesus actually going to Jerusalem for Passover or pilgrimage, all of that showcases this temple, this body matters.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think when you start to be more incarnationally positive um I like that phrase, you know, you you find yourself kind of recognizing, oh, the body does keep score, uh, the body does hold, um, the body is much stronger than we give it.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: The body has the ability to heal itself.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like even even just the the sense of the periosympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sympathetic is like um where we find ourselves getting uber stressed out, mouth breathing.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you there's there's actually a beautiful piece.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like if if you're going to work out or you know, I heard you run, if you're like starting before in the morning to to run, to just do like 20 fast breaths in and out, just mouth breathing, will fire up your system to be able to run quicker and faster and longer.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: But also at the same time, you can just breathe with your nose, hold, release, breathe with your nose, hold release, really works, man.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it will it will just call is it like circular breathing, uh circular box breathing, that's it.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it but it but in that it's just like all of a sudden, and then you add like a verse to it, or a breath prayer to it, or something that you're holding on to, and then I just I'm gonna inhale those new mercies, I'm gonna exhale this unforgiveness.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I in in all of that, that stuff I learned at 40.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Me too, at 40, and so just imagine imagine what that would have done in in a moment of my childhood when there was a ton of moments of anxiety, yeah.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And of course I would self-soothe in some capacity or escape because all I was trying to do is regulate.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: But when you can actually go, hey, this temple actually God created it in a way that I can tap into his presence, I can slow myself down, but all of a sudden, it just or working something through my body in in the pilgrimage, or or it just it trans it's just transforms the way you pray, it transforms the way you you walk, it transforms the way you you just um stay connected and attuned to the presence of God.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so that for me has been a huge piece to it.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think the you you're you're talking about something that again, as evangelicals, we typically have thought most of our spiritual lives are between our ears.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Just thoughts to introduce this idea of bringing our body into this, like, hey, um, and we know if you don't feel good physically, it does affect your spirit, your soul, right?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love the way uh I was at a it was years and years ago.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um someone, uh John Orperg was doing uh a session on formation, and someone asked him, Hey John, what's the soul?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'll I'll always remember his answer.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: He said, the soul, I believe, is imagine it like the sick, sticky substance that sticks your body and your mind and your spirit together.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: That the body isn't outside like a you know, like a kicked out.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, no, this is part of you.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a beautiful thing to introduce into formation, this idea that look, to your point, you can't go to walk to Camino or go to Israel or um walk to Via Della Rosa.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um the that may not be something you can do often, right?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: But there are practices, practices that we engage our body in that are part of formation.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: That it is true.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: We bring our bodies into these spaces, and I think that's um look, every time that I do uh practice any form of pilgrimage, whether that be, I haven't walked the Kamina, but we're gonna walk the Kamina.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's coming, it's coming.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um it it sticks with me for such a long time.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because think about the reverse.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: If the body keeps the score and we think about that negatively in trauma, wouldn't that be also true of the other side?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't it be true?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like if we tuck these things, it gets into the into the fibers of our being, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: When we begin to include this in us, that goodness, um, that truth, the Holy Spirit.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it's such a neat, um, not just neat and useful, important part of our formation.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you said about the soul and that order piece because the soul integrates, integrates, heart minds, heart, mind, and body.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: But what does sin do?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sin disintegrates.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we've all had those moments, right?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where you know, you're saying something, and I totally disagree with you inside, but like my head is like nodding, um, and yet my body's going, or my heart's pumping, and there's anxiousness.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm nodding, but like it's just not all fully present and fully integrated.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's part of when you talk about hey, everyone can pilgrimage.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: The pilgrimage is is the movement towards the good way.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the good way is walking in like presence and healthy, like this is how the shema begins.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Shema rail, arena'al hinu arena.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Hero is where the Lord is God, the Lord is one.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: When when we are integrated, we are one heart, mind, body, soul.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: When when sin gets in, if if the enemy can disintegrate us and have us at odds with ourselves, we'll never show up fully present to another.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll never be a part of the restoration of all things.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: We'll never, we'll never be able to actually see ourselves the way God sees us.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so part of that, you know, for me is oftentimes on those walks is just checking in.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's my heart feeling right now?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Proverbs 423, blah blah blahs, guard your heart.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and if I think about that word guard, I think about you know, someone like Pat Bev.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't want it, you don't want him on, you want him on your team, you don't want to play against him.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like someone we guard our Facebook, we guard our chase, we uh bank account, we guard our social security number, we don't guard our heart.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if everything flows from that, okay, my mind, wow, what am I letting land in my brain?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: All of that toxic negativity that you're talking about, all that shame, like why am I just carrying all of this in my body?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the more that you can just tap into it and and speak for it instead of from it, the healthier, the more whole, um the more presence you'll be able to offer to not just yourself, but to those that matter around you, how then do we um put our feet on the bottom of the pool on this one?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh and that phrase is gonna stick, because you know, I think we're often you it's easy to hear this and go, oh well, when I go to Spain, I'll do that.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just thinking about you know, a few ways that we could think about pilgrimage, not just walking the Camino, but um, I liked what you you said about this is the good way.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the truth is you can practice the good way with your body um just through an intentional walk, right?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Through an intentional walk.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what are other ways that you would say, hey, um maybe it's hey, maybe it's an intentional walk where uh we're doing something uh where we slow ourselves down, breathe differently.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Are there other things you can think of that brings um pilgrimage into more of a daily context?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's look at this.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the past week, think about something where you didn't show up fully present.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: And might have been might have been to your spouse, might have been to your kids, might have been to someone in your congregation, might have been to um an opportunity that you just you you were nervous or scared, whatever that is.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so think about that.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um with no shade and no shame, because that that's not helpful to any sense of formation, all right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: But with profound levels of curiosity, approach that and ask yourself what was going on?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: What was what was it like heart, mind, body, soul?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Were they integrated?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um was I tired?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, did I get enough rest?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Part of the body.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um was there is there is there more defensiveness?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was just like wanting to win a fight, or that's more mental.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it more like heart, you know, um desire, will, um is there is there's something there?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: So so I just will like spend and I do this typically every Sunday night or every Monday, just looking at the past week.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: From there, you play it back.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now what I want you to do is I want you to play it out.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Put yourself in that same situation, knowing what you know right now, and now think about it from the lens of if the main job of a disciple, like we've talked about, is to follow, yeah, is to be with Christ, or you know, um as as preachers we're always taught to keep the main thing the main thing, but Jesus taught to keep the remain thing the main thing.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like if if our job is to remain and you're remaining close to him, how would he do it?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: In that same situation, how would he, if he's if he's living from a place of abundance, John 1010, how would he handle that same situation and and and play that out with him?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And now you play it back, you play it out, and now what you're kind of doing is you're visualizing because the enemy's smart.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you know he got you once, he's gonna try and do it again, but now you actually have thought through a way, a good way, a better way, a healthier way, a more whole way.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then I typically will just say you've also got to always commit to playing it honest.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, most guys will be like, How are you doing good?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Be really honest.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love you have your feelings wheel on your computer.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're always really good at that.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, if everything flows from your heart, like how are you being smart and what time are you putting in, whether that's to the pilgrimage or to the formation, or like to just go for uh for a walk or spend time with friends, or you know, um how are you being intentional with time and money um and resources to like actually help so that you can show up well.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: My friend, we went for a double date once, and before we were leaving, the their kids came up and said, Mom, don't go, don't go.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And she just got down and she said, You want mom to be a good mom?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the child was like, Yeah.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Well, mommy needs some mommy time, but I promise you this, I'll return.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I will be back, and I'm gonna be so much more present tomorrow.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it just like, and I just there's there's something way of like playfully normalizing that that I think is um that's brilliant, just little practices like that.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I have something I so I came across this recently about um oftentimes ancient pilgrims would name crossings and gates and thresholds, right?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: They name them.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh I've been starting this practice of naming a couple thresholds.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, for instance, um, there's two in particular um the threshold into my house.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and um literally, this is pilgrimage for me.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, as I grab my keys and I go out, I just name the crossing.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm now stepping out into my ministry and into the world.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Lord help me be fully present in the next like part of my day.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I name the crossing coming back.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when I come back into the house, I'm like, now I'm back into my sacred place, and this is my family whom I love dearly, who deserve me to be present.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: For me for me, I'm not walking the Camino, but that is like straight pilgrimage, right?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Where you're just like, I'm gonna name this crossing.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so I name that's one crossing, and the other one is my car, actually.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Pastor Doug and I were talking about this.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, oftentimes when I pull into the parking lot of the church and I'm about to walk into the church, I literally open my car door.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: I will sometimes it takes me a little bit longer.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just get myself prepped, uh, especially on a Sunday, especially if I'm preaching.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think about God, I'm now walking on the sacred gown.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm walking out of my car.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm about to handle your word.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: I carry my Bible.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, that's the thing that um a lot of you may may know or not know about Carter is dudes always got Bible with them.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it, I mean, that I've always known you have your Bible with you.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so this last year, I'm like, man, I'm gonna carry that thing with me as much as I possibly can.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it sits in the car seat with me.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: I grab it, and as I cross the threshold of my car, I'm like, Lord, I'm about to illuminate your light.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh help me not to kill this alive word between the time I speak it and the people hear it, you know.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I come back, I name that threshold and thing.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I know it's so simple, but for me, it has been this reorientation of pilgrimage like, hey, name the threshold, like these ancient pilgrims did.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um prayer prayer through it.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's it.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's simple at all.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's sacred.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's taking those ordinary moments as holy and sacred.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I love it.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: So well, bro, what a wonderful insight.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And uh super grateful for you thanks and grateful for the listeners.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thanks for for tuning in.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you want to say goodbye to everybody this time?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, definitely.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: And Eric, thanks for uh making this happen.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: To our producer, Luke, you are such a gift.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh to our listeners, thanks so much.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Grace and peace.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's gonna do it for today.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: Take it with you.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: Carry it into your week.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about it with somebody, let it do something in you.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back soon with more.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: So until then, keep following up.