Latest / Murder Files Unsealed / SF Home Where Landlord Allegedly Killed Tenant Listed for Rent at Nearly Double the Price

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SF Home Where Landlord Allegedly Killed Tenant Listed for Rent at Nearly Double the Price · Murder Files Unsealed

0:00
Speaker 1: Imagine you're sitting across a really polished mahogany desk.
0:04
Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah. Painting a picture here. Yeah.
0:06
Speaker 1: You're across from a real estate broker.
0:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
0:09
Speaker 1: And you've just spent months fighting tooth and nail in
0:12
Speaker 1: like one of the most ruthless housing markets on the planet.
0:15
Speaker 2: Right. The Bay Area market is just brutal.
0:17
Speaker 1: Exactly. So you finally secured a lease on this house
0:21
Speaker 1: in a quiet, foggy neighborhood. The price is staggering, though.
0:24
Speaker 1: It's $ 6, 300 a month.
0:26
Speaker 2: Which is astronomical, but, you know, normal for out there. Right.
0:30
Speaker 1: So you're holding the pen, you're ready to sign, and
0:32
Speaker 1: then the broker slides this legally mandated piece of paper
0:36
Speaker 1: across the desk.
0:37
Speaker 2: Ah, a disclosure form.
0:38
Speaker 1: Yep, a disclosure form. And it informs you in this
0:43
Speaker 1: really cold bureaucratic language that the previous tenant was actually
0:48
Speaker 1: assassinated in the driveway by the landlord.
0:51
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
0:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the exact same family that you are about
0:53
Speaker 1: to write that massive check to.
0:55
Speaker 2: I mean, that is just an incredible scenario. And the
0:58
Speaker 2: crazy thing is that's not hypothetical. That is the exact
1:01
Speaker 2: reality unfolding today in San Francisco's Outer Sunset District.
1:05
Speaker 1: It's wild, right? And that's exactly what we're doing here today.
1:08
Speaker 1: Welcome to our deep dive.
1:10
Speaker 2: Glad to be here.
1:10
Speaker 1: Today, we are unpacking a stack of local and national
1:14
Speaker 1: news items from Friday, September 11th, 2026. specifically looking at
1:19
Speaker 1: the San Francisco Bay Area.
1:21
Speaker 2: And reading today's news stack, I mean, it's like looking
1:24
Speaker 2: at a cross-section of the Earth.
1:26
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good way to put it.
1:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got this ancient history at the absolute bottom.
1:30
Speaker 2: You've got modern tragedy right in the middle, and then
1:33
Speaker 2: this bizarre human drama sitting right there on the surface.
1:36
Speaker 1: We really do. We're talking 10,000-year-old fossils, and then in
1:40
Speaker 1: the exact same news feed, the 25th anniversary of a
1:44
Speaker 1: huge national trauma.
1:45
Speaker 2: Right, and my goal today is to kind of connect
1:47
Speaker 2: the dots for you, the listener, between these seemingly disconnected stories,
1:52
Speaker 2: because when you pull them apart, you really see what
1:54
Speaker 2: they say about our spaces, our safety, and just, you know,
1:58
Speaker 2: our history.
1:59
Speaker 1: So let's jump right into that first story we teased,
2:01
Speaker 1: because reading the headline just isn't enough. We really need
2:04
Speaker 1: to understand the how and the why here.
2:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's unpack the Outer Sunset murder house.
2:08
Speaker 1: Okay, so the core info from our source is this.
2:11
Speaker 1: In the Parkside neighborhood of the Outer Sunset, A 58-year-old
2:15
Speaker 1: tenant named Eric Bigone was shot and killed outside his
2:18
Speaker 1: home in May.
2:19
Speaker 2: Right.
2:20
Speaker 1: And the accused is his landlord, Philippe Chagnon. But here
2:24
Speaker 1: is the detail that absolutely stops me dead in my tracks.
2:27
Speaker 1: Chagnon is a retired dentist.
2:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, that demographic detail changes everything.
2:32
Speaker 1: Exactly. And the sequence of events is just baffling. Prosecutors
2:37
Speaker 1: allege that Chagnon set Bigone's car on fire.
2:40
Speaker 2: Just out in the open.
2:41
Speaker 1: Right, in a dense neighborhood. And when Bigan presumably came
2:45
Speaker 1: out to see what was happening to his car, Chagny
2:47
Speaker 1: shot him twice from behind.
2:48
Speaker 2: Shot him in the back.
2:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Chagny has pleaded not guilty, but let's just
2:52
Speaker 1: break down the behavioral mechanics of that alleged sequence. Because
2:56
Speaker 1: it sounds like a movie villain having a psychological break.
2:58
Speaker 2: It really does because, look, it requires two entirely contradictory
3:02
Speaker 2: psychological states. First, you have to analyze the act of
3:06
Speaker 2: setting a vehicle on fire.
3:07
Speaker 1: Which is insane in a residential area. Right.
3:11
Speaker 2: Fire is chaotic. It's unpredictable. It's loud and highly visible.
3:15
Speaker 2: Setting a car on fire in a place like the
3:17
Speaker 2: outer sunset is an act of spectacular disruption.
3:20
Speaker 1: It's designed to draw immediate attention.
3:22
Speaker 2: Exactly. In the context of an ambush, an arson like
3:26
Speaker 2: this operates as a mechanical lure. It forces the target
3:29
Speaker 2: out of a fortified position in their home and directly
3:32
Speaker 2: into an exposed environment.
3:34
Speaker 1: Because fire triggers a primal response, right? You don't think
3:37
Speaker 1: about whether it's a trap. Your brain just registers like
3:40
Speaker 1: a threat to your property or your house and you
3:42
Speaker 1: just move.
3:43
Speaker 2: Panic and you run outside.
3:44
Speaker 1: But here's where I struggle with the whole narrative. We
3:47
Speaker 1: are talking about a retired dentist.
3:49
Speaker 2: Right. A white collar professional.
3:51
Speaker 1: Dentistry is a profession defined by millimeter precision. It's about sterilization, routine,
3:57
Speaker 1: absolute control. You spend decades operating in a highly confined,
4:01
Speaker 1: predictable little space in someone's mouth.
4:03
Speaker 2: Very controlled environment. Yeah.
4:04
Speaker 1: So the leap from that life. to improvising a chaotic
4:08
Speaker 1: car fire in the middle of a foggy street, it
4:11
Speaker 1: feels less like a calculated escalation and more like just
4:15
Speaker 1: a total break from reality.
4:17
Speaker 2: Well, the contrast between the two acts of violence is
4:20
Speaker 2: what makes the psychology so incredibly disturbing.
4:22
Speaker 1: How so?
4:24
Speaker 2: Because you have the chaotic lure of the fire, right?
4:27
Speaker 2: But that's followed by the clinical, cowardly act of the
4:31
Speaker 2: shooting itself.
4:32
Speaker 1: The two shots from behind. Exactly.
4:33
Speaker 2: Exactly. The prosecution alleges he was shot in the back,
4:37
Speaker 2: and shooting a target in the back implies one of
4:40
Speaker 2: two things.
4:41
Speaker 1: Which are?
4:42
Speaker 2: Either the victim is actively fleeing a lethal threat, or
4:46
Speaker 2: they're completely unaware of it because they're distracted by the
4:48
Speaker 2: burning vehicle.
4:49
Speaker 1: Oh, right. He's looking at his burning car, completely oblivious.
4:53
Speaker 2: Yes. It strips away any illusion of a confrontation or
4:56
Speaker 2: a dispute that just got out of hand in the
4:59
Speaker 2: heat of the moment. It is the very definition of
5:01
Speaker 2: a premeditated execution.
5:03
Speaker 1: Wow.
5:03
Speaker 2: Wow.
5:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's heavy.
5:05
Speaker 2: And the fact that a retired professional with decades of
5:08
Speaker 2: conditioning in this high status controlled environment could supposedly compartmentalize
5:13
Speaker 2: his mind to execute a primitive ambush like that.
5:15
Speaker 1: It's jarring.
5:16
Speaker 2: It really suggests that whatever internal pressure he was facing
5:19
Speaker 2: completely overrode a lifetime of social and professional conditioning.
5:24
Speaker 1: OK, so that brings up the obvious question. What kind
5:27
Speaker 1: of pressure overrides a lifetime of upper middle class normalcy?
5:31
Speaker 2: Real estate.
5:32
Speaker 1: Exactly. Our sources give us a very specific structural motive here,
5:37
Speaker 1: and it is honestly the darkest possible commentary on the
5:41
Speaker 1: Bay Area.
5:42
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the lawsuit. Right.
5:44
Speaker 1: So the victim's son filed a lawsuit, and he's claiming
5:47
Speaker 1: that his father was murdered specifically to clear the property
5:52
Speaker 1: so the family could sell it.
5:53
Speaker 2: And that lawsuit right there transforms this from a crime
5:56
Speaker 2: of passion into a crime of pure, cold-blooded economics.
5:59
Speaker 1: Which is terrifying.
6:00
Speaker 2: It is, because in the Bay Area, an unoccupied single-family
6:04
Speaker 2: home is exponentially more valuable than a home occupied by
6:07
Speaker 2: a long-term tenant who has established rental rights.
6:09
Speaker 1: Because they're basically locked in at a lower rate.
6:12
Speaker 2: Right. So in this alleged mindset, the tenant ceases to
6:15
Speaker 2: be a human being and just becomes an obstruction to capital.
6:18
Speaker 1: The ultimate obstacle to a massive real estate transaction. Exactly.
6:21
Speaker 1: But the legal system actually threw a wrench into that plan.
6:25
Speaker 1: A judge stepped in and formally blocked the sale of
6:28
Speaker 1: the house while the criminal case plays out.
6:30
Speaker 2: Which is a standard legal move, tying up the asset.
6:33
Speaker 1: Sure, but you would think that would force the family into,
6:36
Speaker 1: I don't know, a holding pattern. Maybe a period of
6:39
Speaker 1: quiet reflection given the tragedy.
6:41
Speaker 2: You don't think so, yeah.
6:42
Speaker 1: Instead, they pivot with a speed that is genuinely chilling.
6:46
Speaker 1: The family immediately puts the house right back on the
6:48
Speaker 1: rental market.
6:49
Speaker 2: Since they can't sell it, they rent it.
6:51
Speaker 1: And here is the kicker for you listening at home.
6:54
Speaker 1: Eric Biegun, the victim, was paying $ 3, 200 a month.
6:57
Speaker 2: Okay.
6:58
Speaker 1: The new listing, $ 6, 300 a month.
7:02
Speaker 2: Which is almost exactly double.
7:04
Speaker 1: Yes, nearly double the rent.
7:06
Speaker 2: The economic mechanics at play here demonstrate just a ruthless pragmatism.
7:11
Speaker 2: The primary objective was liquidating the asset through a sale. Right.
7:15
Speaker 1: Right, get a huge lump sum. But when that was
7:18
Speaker 1: blocked by judicial intervention... Instead of absorbing the loss of
7:21
Speaker 1: time and capital, the property owners immediately leveraged the newly
7:25
Speaker 1: vacated state of the home to double its yield. It's
7:28
Speaker 1: just so callous.
7:30
Speaker 2: A near 100% increase in rent reveals the absolute zero-sum
7:35
Speaker 2: nature of this housing market. The underlying logic is that
7:38
Speaker 2: a tragedy doesn't devalue the asset.
7:41
Speaker 1: It just resets it.
7:42
Speaker 2: Exactly. It merely resets the baseline for what the market
7:45
Speaker 2: will bear.
7:46
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the mechanics of how that actually happens legally, though,
7:50
Speaker 1: because you can't just rent out a house where someone
7:52
Speaker 1: was assassinated in the driveway without mentioning it, can you?
7:55
Speaker 2: No, you can't. California law has strict material fact disclosures.
7:59
Speaker 1: Right. So the broker has to actively inform prospective renters
8:02
Speaker 1: about the death.
8:03
Speaker 2: The legal framework requires disclosure of any death on a
8:06
Speaker 2: property within a certain time frame, usually three years.
8:09
Speaker 1: Even natural causes.
8:10
Speaker 2: Yes, but especially violent crimes. The whole purpose of the
8:14
Speaker 2: law is to protect buyers and renters from psychological stigma
8:18
Speaker 2: that might affect the value or just their enjoyment of
8:20
Speaker 2: the home.
8:21
Speaker 1: But in this market, does that even matter?
8:23
Speaker 2: Well, that's the unintended consequence here. In a hyper-scarce market,
8:27
Speaker 2: it forces this bizarre negotiation. The broker must sit across
8:32
Speaker 2: from a prospective tenant clearly articulate that the previous occupant
8:36
Speaker 2: was allegedly murdered by the property owner.
8:38
Speaker 1: Which is insane to have to say out loud.
8:41
Speaker 2: Right, and then immediately transition into discussing a $ 6, 300 monthly obligation.
8:48
Speaker 1: It's like the Hunger Games out there for renters. I mean,
8:51
Speaker 1: think about it. Would you, the listener, pay nearly double
8:55
Speaker 1: the previous rent to live somewhere where the last guy
8:57
Speaker 1: was killed?
8:58
Speaker 2: It requires an astonishing level of cognitive dissonance from the renter.
9:02
Speaker 1: Put yourself in their shoes for a second. You are
9:04
Speaker 1: touring the house. You're looking at the kitchen appliances, checking
9:07
Speaker 1: the water pressure in the shower, all while knowing that
9:10
Speaker 1: the very reason you were able to stand in that
9:11
Speaker 1: kitchen is because a man lost his life on the
9:14
Speaker 1: pavement outside.
9:15
Speaker 2: And then you agree to pay double directly to the
9:17
Speaker 2: family of the accused.
9:19
Speaker 1: The housing scarcity has to be so extreme that people
9:21
Speaker 1: are willing to completely suppress their own psychological comfort just
9:25
Speaker 1: to have a roof over their heads.
9:27
Speaker 2: The market forces have effectively neutralized the psychological stigma completely.
9:32
Speaker 1: Wow. Neutralized it.
9:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. In a balanced housing economy, a property with that
9:37
Speaker 2: kind of immediate violent history would sit vacant, or it
9:40
Speaker 2: would require a massive, massive discount to attract a tenant
9:44
Speaker 2: willing to overlook the trauma.
9:46
Speaker 1: Right, they'd have to slash the price.
9:47
Speaker 2: But here, the trauma is absorbed instantly, the price is doubled,
9:52
Speaker 2: and the market just moves on.
9:53
Speaker 1: It's terrifying.
9:55
Speaker 2: It suggests that for a certain demographic, the physical utility
9:58
Speaker 2: of housing in San Francisco completely outweighs any ethical or
10:01
Speaker 2: emotional reservations. The desperation for space overrides the human instinct
10:06
Speaker 2: to avoid places associated with recent violent death.
10:10
Speaker 1: And that desperation for space brings us to the absolute
10:13
Speaker 1: inverse of this situation.
10:14
Speaker 2: Let's pivot to C-Clip.
10:16
Speaker 1: Yes. We just analyzed a scenario where a landlord allegedly
10:20
Speaker 1: bypassed every single legal and moral boundary with extreme violence
10:24
Speaker 1: to empty a property.
10:25
Speaker 2: Right.
10:26
Speaker 1: But now we are going to travel a few miles
10:28
Speaker 1: north to Seacliff. And for anyone unfamiliar with the Bay Area,
10:32
Speaker 1: Seacliff is not the outer sunset.
10:34
Speaker 2: No, it is not.
10:34
Speaker 1: It is an ultra wealthy enclave. We're talking home to billionaires, celebrities.
10:40
Speaker 1: These massive palatial estates overlooking the ocean.
10:43
Speaker 2: Prime, prime real estate.
10:45
Speaker 1: And yet in Seacliff, we have property owners who are
10:48
Speaker 1: entirely paralyzed, completely incapable of reclaiming their own space.
10:54
Speaker 2: The contrast is purely structural. Our sources indicate that a $ 4. 4
10:59
Speaker 2: million property in Seacliff has been taken over by alleged squatters.
11:04
Speaker 2: A $ 4.
11:04
Speaker 1: 4 million house.
11:04
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. And this isn't just like a brief weekend
11:10
Speaker 2: occupation while the owners are away. The occupation has lasted
11:12
Speaker 2: for an entire calendar year.
11:14
Speaker 1: A whole year. I just I can't wrap my head
11:17
Speaker 1: around that.
11:17
Speaker 2: The neighbors are furious, obviously. They're demanding action, pleading with
11:21
Speaker 2: the city to intervene and get them out. But they
11:23
Speaker 2: are trapped in this bureaucratic holding pattern, just waiting for
11:26
Speaker 2: the municipality to act.
11:27
Speaker 1: See, here's where it gets really interesting to me. How
11:30
Speaker 1: does that actually happen?
11:31
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
11:32
Speaker 1: I think most people assume that if a stranger breaks
11:35
Speaker 1: into your house, you call the police and the police
11:37
Speaker 1: come and remove them for trespassing, right?
11:39
Speaker 2: That's the logical assumption, yes.
11:40
Speaker 1: So how does a random trespasser magically transform into a
11:44
Speaker 1: squatter who gets to live in a multimillion-dollar mansion for
11:48
Speaker 1: a year?
11:48
Speaker 2: The mechanism that creates this paralysis is the legal distinction
11:52
Speaker 2: between a civil dispute and a criminal trespass.
11:56
Speaker 1: Okay, break that down for me.
11:57
Speaker 2: In many jurisdictions, if an occupant can establish even the
12:01
Speaker 2: flimsiest appearance of residency... Like what? Well, perhaps by receiving
12:05
Speaker 2: a single piece of mail at the address, or setting
12:08
Speaker 2: up a local utility account, or even producing a fraudulent,
12:12
Speaker 2: completely fake lease document.
12:14
Speaker 1: Just a piece of paper they printed out?
12:16
Speaker 2: Literally, yes. If they present that to law enforcement, the
12:19
Speaker 2: police will often decline to intervene on the spot.
12:22
Speaker 1: You're kidding!
12:22
Speaker 2: No. Because they have to categorize it as a civil matter...
12:27
Speaker 2: A landlord-tenant dispute rather than a criminal burglary.
12:31
Speaker 1: Even if there is absolutely no record of a legitimate lease,
12:34
Speaker 1: the police just wash their hands of it.
12:35
Speaker 2: Law enforcement officers are not equipped, nor are they legally
12:38
Speaker 2: authorized in that exact moment, to adjudicate complex property rights
12:42
Speaker 2: on a front lawn. Huh.
12:44
Speaker 1: I guess that makes sense from the cop's perspective.
12:46
Speaker 2: Right. Once the occupant claims residency and has some nominal proof,
12:50
Speaker 2: the burden of proof shifts entirely to the property owner.
12:54
Speaker 1: So what does the owner have to do?
12:56
Speaker 2: The owner must initiate a formal civil eviction process through
13:00
Speaker 2: the courts. This involves filing unlawful detainer lawsuits, serving formal notices,
13:05
Speaker 2: waiting for court dates, and navigating what is a notoriously
13:09
Speaker 2: backlogged judicial system.
13:10
Speaker 1: Oh, man.
13:11
Speaker 2: And a resourceful squatter, someone who understands how to file delays,
13:15
Speaker 2: request extensions, or exploit procedural loopholes, they can stretch this
13:18
Speaker 2: timeline out for months. Or, as we see in this
13:22
Speaker 2: Seacliff case, a full year.
13:24
Speaker 1: It completely shatters the illusion that wealth provides invulnerability.
13:29
Speaker 2: It really does.
13:29
Speaker 1: You have these neighbors living in eight-figure mansions paying massive,
13:33
Speaker 1: massive property taxes, assuming that their financial status guarantees a
13:36
Speaker 1: certain level of municipal protection and order, right?
13:39
Speaker 2: That's the social contract they believe in, yeah.
13:41
Speaker 1: But instead, they are forced to watch these agonizingly slow
13:45
Speaker 1: bureaucratic gears grind while total strangers occupy the $ 4 million
13:49
Speaker 1: house next door.
13:50
Speaker 2: And the psychological toll on the neighborhood is profound... Precisely
13:54
Speaker 2: because it violates that fundamental social contract.
13:58
Speaker 1: Right, the idea that the rules apply.
14:00
Speaker 2: Exactly. The social contract dictates that if you follow the rules,
14:04
Speaker 2: pay your taxes, and respect property lines, the state will
14:07
Speaker 2: protect your assets.
14:09
Speaker 1: But here, the state is failing.
14:11
Speaker 2: Complete failure. When a bureaucratic loophole allows an unauthorized occupation
14:15
Speaker 2: to persist for a year in a highly visible, wealthy neighborhood...
14:19
Speaker 2: It breeds this deep, systemic cynicism.
14:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be incredibly cynical.
14:24
Speaker 2: It signals that the legal framework is so fragile and
14:27
Speaker 2: so inefficient that a piece of paper like a fake
14:29
Speaker 2: utility bill can completely neutralize millions of dollars of capital
14:33
Speaker 2: and the entire apparatus of local law enforcement.
14:36
Speaker 1: It creates this terrifying duality in the city. In one
14:39
Speaker 1: part of the city, the outer sunset, a landlord bypasses
14:42
Speaker 1: the law entirely with alleged violence to empty a house.
14:45
Speaker 2: Right, taking it into his own hands.
14:46
Speaker 1: And then in another part, Seacliff... Neighbors are trapped behind
14:50
Speaker 1: this invisible force field of city bureaucracy for a whole year.
14:53
Speaker 1: Is property in San Francisco just a total wild west
14:56
Speaker 1: at this point?
14:57
Speaker 2: Both scenarios represent the extreme endpoints of a system that
15:01
Speaker 2: is failing to mediate the intense pressures of space, value,
15:05
Speaker 2: and legal rights.
15:06
Speaker 1: It's all just buckling under the pressure.
15:08
Speaker 2: Yeah. They are symptoms of a municipal infrastructure that is
15:11
Speaker 2: completely overwhelmed by the complexities of modern real estate. It
15:16
Speaker 2: leaves individuals feeling like they either have to take horrifying
15:19
Speaker 2: matters into their own hands or just wait in perpetual
15:22
Speaker 2: bureaucratic limbo.
15:23
Speaker 1: It's incredibly bleak. But at least the motives in those
15:26
Speaker 1: two stories, as dark and convoluted as they are, are
15:30
Speaker 1: tethered to something tangible, you know.
15:32
Speaker 2: Right. Real estate, capital, physical space.
15:35
Speaker 1: Exactly. But this next item in today's source stack It
15:38
Speaker 1: completely abandons any pretense of a logical structural motive.
15:42
Speaker 2: We're moving to the South Bay story. Yeah.
15:44
Speaker 1: We are moving from the betrayal of a social contract
15:47
Speaker 1: to the ultimate, inexplicable betrayal of intimate trust.
15:50
Speaker 2: This one is just chilling.
15:52
Speaker 1: The source states that a South Bay woman is accused
15:54
Speaker 1: of killing her two best friends.
15:55
Speaker 2: Two best friends.
15:56
Speaker 1: Right. And the murders took place separately, but on the
15:59
Speaker 1: exact same day.
16:00
Speaker 2: And we really need to emphasize the word separately here.
16:04
Speaker 1: Why is that the key detail?
16:06
Speaker 2: Because that single word changes the entire psychological profile of
16:10
Speaker 2: the event. It fundamentally alters the mechanics of the crime.
16:13
Speaker 1: How so? Like, opposed to if it was all at once?
16:17
Speaker 2: Exactly. If two people are killed in a single chaotic event,
16:22
Speaker 2: a defense attorney might argue for a momentary break from reality.
16:26
Speaker 2: A singular explosion of violence where a secondary victim just
16:29
Speaker 2: happened to be caught in the trajectory of the initial rage.
16:32
Speaker 1: Right, like a crime of passion gone totally out of control.
16:35
Speaker 2: But the word separately introduces the element of time, and
16:39
Speaker 2: time requires compartmentalization.
16:41
Speaker 1: Walk me through the logistical and psychological reality of that
16:45
Speaker 1: 24-hour period, because my brain simply cannot process how someone
16:48
Speaker 1: executes this.
16:49
Speaker 2: The timeline demands a terrifying level of emotional regulation, so
16:53
Speaker 2: let's construct the sequence based on the facts.
16:55
Speaker 1: Okay.
16:56
Speaker 2: The perpetrator commits the first murder against someone they have
16:59
Speaker 2: a deeply established trusting relationship with, a best friend.
17:03
Speaker 1: Which is horrific enough on its own.
17:05
Speaker 2: Right. Now, the physical and emotional adrenaline following a lethal
17:09
Speaker 2: act is immense. Your heart rate is spiked. You might
17:11
Speaker 2: be shaking, terrified.
17:13
Speaker 1: Natural human biology.
17:14
Speaker 2: Yet this individual had to physically abstract themselves from that
17:18
Speaker 2: first scene. They had to mask any physical evidence of
17:21
Speaker 2: the violence, totally regulate their nervous system to avoid displaying
17:25
Speaker 2: panic or guilt. And then intentionally traveled to a second
17:29
Speaker 2: separate location.
17:30
Speaker 1: Just to meet another best friend.
17:31
Speaker 2: Exactly.
17:32
Speaker 1: And that second best friend has absolutely no idea what
17:35
Speaker 1: just happened. They are greeting this person with the standard
17:38
Speaker 1: warmth and trust of a close friendship.
17:40
Speaker 2: Which is precisely the point of vulnerability.
17:42
Speaker 1: Oh, man.
17:42
Speaker 2: The perpetrator has to actively leverage that trust, right? They
17:46
Speaker 2: are mirroring the warmth and normalcy expected by the second victim,
17:50
Speaker 2: all while harboring the immediate suppressed memory of having just
17:53
Speaker 2: taken a life hours earlier.
17:55
Speaker 1: It makes me sick to even think about it.
17:57
Speaker 2: To maintain that facade, engage in casual conversation, and then
18:01
Speaker 2: successfully pivot back into lethal violence against a second trusting target,
18:06
Speaker 2: it requires a psychological detachment that just defies standard criminal profiling.
18:11
Speaker 1: It's like they're a robot.
18:12
Speaker 2: It really suggests an absolute absence of empathy and a
18:17
Speaker 2: frightening mastery over their own physiological responses.
18:20
Speaker 1: From a purely investigative standpoint, how do authorities even begin
18:24
Speaker 1: to piece something like that together?
18:25
Speaker 2: It's a massive puzzle.
18:27
Speaker 1: When you have two separate crime scenes on the same
18:29
Speaker 1: day involving victims who are connected to each other, The
18:32
Speaker 1: web of data must be overwhelmingly complex.
18:35
Speaker 2: Well, the initial phase of an investigation like this relies
18:38
Speaker 2: heavily on digital forensics and timeline mapping.
18:41
Speaker 1: Okay, so not just fingerprints and DNA.
18:43
Speaker 2: No. Investigators are not just looking at the physical crime
18:46
Speaker 2: scenes anymore. They are reconstructing the digital exhaust left behind
18:50
Speaker 2: by the victims and the suspect.
18:52
Speaker 1: Digital exhaust. I like that term. What does that look
18:55
Speaker 1: like in practice?
18:56
Speaker 2: It means pulling cell tower data to trace the geographic
18:59
Speaker 2: movements of all three individuals down to the literal minutes.
19:02
Speaker 2: It involves analyzing text message histories, social media interactions, and
19:06
Speaker 2: GPS navigation logs from their cars or phones.
19:09
Speaker 1: Because they have to find the intersection points between all
19:12
Speaker 1: three timelines.
19:13
Speaker 2: Precisely. The authorities have to prove not just physical presence,
19:17
Speaker 2: but intent and chronology.
19:19
Speaker 1: Right, the order of operation.
19:20
Speaker 2: They must establish exactly when the suspect interacted with victim A,
19:24
Speaker 2: track the suspect's movements during the intervening hours, and place
19:27
Speaker 2: them definitively at the scene with victim B.
19:30
Speaker 1: That's a lot of data to sift through.
19:32
Speaker 2: It is. Furthermore, they are closely analyzing the communications between
19:36
Speaker 2: the suspect and victim B that occurred after victim A
19:39
Speaker 2: was already deceased. Oh, wow.
19:41
Speaker 1: So like text setting up the second meeting.
19:43
Speaker 2: Exactly. The tone of those text messages or phone calls,
19:46
Speaker 2: how the suspect lured or arranged the meeting with the
19:49
Speaker 2: second victim, while knowing full well the first was dead.
19:52
Speaker 2: That becomes critical evidence of premeditation and just a chilling
19:56
Speaker 2: state of mind.
19:57
Speaker 1: We spent so much time on this show analyzing systemic threats, right?
20:01
Speaker 1: The housing market, the economy, local politics.
20:05
Speaker 2: The big picture stuff.
20:06
Speaker 1: But this South Bay story forces you to look inward.
20:10
Speaker 1: How does a person wake up, look at their closest
20:13
Speaker 1: circle of support, and decide to individually eradicate them before
20:17
Speaker 1: the sun goes down?
20:18
Speaker 2: It's the ultimate betrayal.
20:20
Speaker 1: It suggests that the most profound dangers we face aren't
20:22
Speaker 1: always systemic.
20:23
Speaker 2: Oh.
20:24
Speaker 1: Sometimes, there are these completely opaque, unpredictable, psychological ruptures happening
20:29
Speaker 1: in the minds of the people we trust the most.
20:32
Speaker 2: It's the void of human behavior that no amount of
20:34
Speaker 2: data or economic theory can explain.
20:36
Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. It serves as a stark reminder of the
20:39
Speaker 1: limits of structural analysis.
20:41
Speaker 2: We can dissect the economic pressures of a red hike
20:44
Speaker 2: all day long or the bureaucratic failures of an eviction process. Right.
20:48
Speaker 2: But when a trusted confidant meticulously plans and executes the
20:51
Speaker 2: separate murders of their closest friends on a single Tuesday,
20:54
Speaker 2: we are just forced to acknowledge the terrifying, unknowable depths
20:57
Speaker 2: of individual pathology.
20:59
Speaker 1: The feeling of vulnerability reading that local headline is really intense.
21:04
Speaker 1: But the date on our source stack, Friday... September 11th, 2026,
21:08
Speaker 1: it actually demands that we pull our focus out from
21:12
Speaker 1: this local void and look at a massive national trauma.
21:15
Speaker 2: Right. The 25th anniversary. Yes.
21:17
Speaker 1: We are navigating the 25th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks.
21:20
Speaker 2: And the juxtaposition here of local inexplicable violence with a
21:25
Speaker 2: quarter century retrospective on a huge geopolitical catastrophe, it really
21:30
Speaker 2: challenges how we process scale.
21:32
Speaker 1: It does. Our sources outline the physical manifestations of this
21:36
Speaker 1: memory happening today. Families are gathering at the World Trade
21:38
Speaker 1: Center in New York, the Pentagon in Washington, D.C., and
21:41
Speaker 1: the fields of Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
21:43
Speaker 2: The major sites. Right.
21:45
Speaker 1: The national news feeds are completely dominated by live updates
21:47
Speaker 1: and moments of silence. But then the focus in our
21:50
Speaker 1: stack shifts right back to the Bay Area.
21:52
Speaker 2: Because local communities are doing their own thing.
21:54
Speaker 1: Exactly. Local communities have organized their own lists of events,
21:58
Speaker 1: and there is a specific initiative to honor a San
22:00
Speaker 1: Francisco flight attendant recognized as a 9-11 hero.
22:03
Speaker 2: The 25-year milestone is so critical from a sociological perspective.
22:08
Speaker 1: Why 25 specifically?
22:10
Speaker 2: Because it marks the precise transition from a living memory
22:13
Speaker 2: into a historical record. Consider the demographic reality of 2026, right?
22:19
Speaker 2: A massive portion of the population, basically anyone under their
22:23
Speaker 2: early 30s, has absolutely no cognitive memory of the events
22:27
Speaker 2: as they unfolded.
22:28
Speaker 1: That's wild to think about, but it's true.
22:30
Speaker 2: They didn't experience the visceral shock, you know, the grounded airspace,
22:35
Speaker 2: the smell of the smoke or that sudden terrifying shift
22:38
Speaker 2: in the global paradigm that the rest.
22:39
Speaker 1: Of us felt.
22:40
Speaker 2: Right.
22:40
Speaker 1: For them, 9-11 is a curriculum standard. It's archival footage
22:44
Speaker 1: on YouTube.
22:45
Speaker 2: It's a chapter in a history textbook, not a core memory.
22:48
Speaker 1: For the family standing at ground zero today and for
22:50
Speaker 1: the entire generation that watched it live on television, the
22:53
Speaker 1: trauma remains deeply, deeply encoded.
22:56
Speaker 2: Because the neurobiology of mass trauma means the brain records
22:59
Speaker 2: those events with heightened sensory detail. It makes the memory
23:02
Speaker 2: feel immediate even decades later.
23:05
Speaker 1: So, on this 25th anniversary, society is essentially attempting to
23:10
Speaker 1: bridge a massive experiential gap.
23:13
Speaker 2: That's exactly what's happening.
23:14
Speaker 1: We are trying to figure out how to honor the raw,
23:18
Speaker 1: persistent grief of the survivors while successfully translating the gravity
23:22
Speaker 1: of the event to a younger generation that views it
23:25
Speaker 1: purely emotionally.
23:26
Speaker 2: And the main mechanism for bridging that gap seems to
23:29
Speaker 2: be localization.
23:30
Speaker 1: What do you mean by localization in this context?
23:33
Speaker 2: Well, a mass casualty event involving thousands of people, an
23:37
Speaker 2: event that altered global geopolitics, it's almost too large for
23:41
Speaker 2: the human brain to emotionally process on a daily basis.
23:44
Speaker 1: It's cross-tracked.
23:45
Speaker 2: Right, it's too big. So we shrink the scale. The
23:47
Speaker 2: Bay Area communities aren't just meditating on the abstract concept
23:50
Speaker 2: of a terror attack today. They're anchoring their grief to
23:53
Speaker 2: a specific local individual, that San Francisco flight attendant.
23:57
Speaker 1: Oh, I see. That localization is a vital psychological tool.
24:00
Speaker 2: Yes. It transforms an incomprehensible national statistic back into a
24:05
Speaker 2: human narrative.
24:05
Speaker 1: It makes it real.
24:06
Speaker 2: By elevating the story of a local flight attendant, a
24:09
Speaker 2: community that was geographically thousands of miles away from the
24:12
Speaker 2: physical destruction in New York can still forge a direct,
24:17
Speaker 2: intimate connection to the tragedy.
24:19
Speaker 1: It allows a community to mourn a neighbor, essentially, rather
24:22
Speaker 1: than just mourning a date on a calendar. Exactly.
24:25
Speaker 2: It makes the abstract history deeply personal.
24:28
Speaker 1: Think about what we are asking the listener to do
24:30
Speaker 1: right now, though. We are asking you to process the
24:33
Speaker 1: microtraumas of local crime. A landlord killing a tenant, a
24:38
Speaker 1: woman murdering her best friends while simultaneously holding the macrotrauma
24:43
Speaker 1: of a global paradigm shift that happened 25 years ago.
24:47
Speaker 2: It's a heavy cognitive load.
24:48
Speaker 1: It is. How do we balance that? How do we
24:51
Speaker 1: live in the chaotic, turbulent present, worrying about real estate
24:54
Speaker 1: and local crime while carrying the immense historical weight of 9-11?
24:58
Speaker 2: It requires an acknowledgment that history does not pause the present.
25:02
Speaker 1: That's a good point.
25:02
Speaker 2: Acknowledging the profound weight of a 25-year-old trauma doesn't invalidate
25:07
Speaker 2: the immediate stress of a broken housing market or the
25:10
Speaker 2: shock of local violence. The human mind is incredibly resilient,
25:14
Speaker 2: you know. It's capable of operating on multiple emotional bandwidths.
25:18
Speaker 1: You could hold two truths at once.
25:20
Speaker 2: Right. The challenge is allowing the solemn reflection of the
25:23
Speaker 2: anniversary to grant us a sense of scale, perhaps giving
25:26
Speaker 2: us the perspective to navigate our immediate localized anxieties with
25:30
Speaker 2: a bit more grace.
25:32
Speaker 1: Well, let's test that sense of scale right now, because
25:34
Speaker 1: the final three items in our source stack provide the
25:37
Speaker 1: ultimate perspective shift.
25:38
Speaker 2: These last few are completely wild.
25:41
Speaker 1: They really are. We have spent this entire deep dive
25:44
Speaker 1: analyzing the destructive capacity of human beings and both on
25:47
Speaker 1: an interpersonal level and a geopolitical level.
25:49
Speaker 2: All very human-centric problems.
25:51
Speaker 1: But these last headlines pull us entirely out of the
25:54
Speaker 1: realm of human drama, and they thrust us into the sheer,
25:57
Speaker 1: bizarre scale of the natural and synthetic worlds.
26:01
Speaker 2: We are transitioning from the timeline of human history into
26:04
Speaker 2: the timeline of deep geological time, and simultaneously accelerating into
26:10
Speaker 2: the speculative future of artificial intelligence.
26:13
Speaker 1: I'm going to lay these three facts out for you,
26:15
Speaker 1: and I want to explore the mechanics of every single
26:17
Speaker 1: one because together they form the most surreal picture of
26:20
Speaker 1: what it means to be alive in 2026.
26:22
Speaker 2: Let's hear them.
26:23
Speaker 1: Fact one. A 10,000-year-old fossilized mastodon tooth was discovered resting
26:30
Speaker 1: in a local Bay Area creek.
26:32
Speaker 2: Unbelievable.
26:32
Speaker 1: Fact two. The tech company Anthropic had to actively block
26:36
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence misuse that could have supported the creation of
26:40
Speaker 1: biological weapons.
26:41
Speaker 2: Terrifying.
26:42
Speaker 1: Fact three. U.S. health officials declared an end to a
26:45
Speaker 1: cyclospora outbreak, but readily admitted they have absolutely no idea
26:49
Speaker 1: where the outbreak actually originated.
26:50
Speaker 2: Okay, let's break these down, because that mastodon tooth acts
26:53
Speaker 2: as a profound anchor for.
26:55
Speaker 1: All of this. A 10,000-year-old physical artifact just sitting in
26:59
Speaker 1: the mud of a local creek.
27:00
Speaker 2: Right. Consider the timeline here. While the indigenous populations thrived,
27:05
Speaker 2: while Spanish missions were built, While the gold rush transformed
27:09
Speaker 2: the landscape.
27:09
Speaker 1: While the 1906 earthquake leveled the city.
27:12
Speaker 2: Exactly. And while the modern tech boom built the skyscrapers,
27:16
Speaker 2: that tooth was simply waiting in the sediment.
27:19
Speaker 1: Just chilling in the mud.
27:20
Speaker 2: It is a physical manifestation of deep time. It's a
27:23
Speaker 2: reminder that the human conflicts over real estate in Seacliff
27:27
Speaker 2: or the Outer Sunset are microscopic blips in the broader
27:30
Speaker 2: geological narrative of the Bay Area.
27:33
Speaker 1: It really forces you to realize you are standing on
27:35
Speaker 1: top of prehistoric ecosystems every time you walk outside. You are.
27:40
Speaker 1: But while we are unearthing 10,000-year-old bones from the dirt,
27:43
Speaker 1: our servers are actively trying to prevent the digital synthesis
27:47
Speaker 1: of a literal plague.
27:49
Speaker 2: The anthropic headlines. Yes.
27:50
Speaker 1: Let's dig into that. Because when people hear AI bioweapons,
27:54
Speaker 1: they probably picture like a robot with metal arms in
27:57
Speaker 1: a lab mixing glowing chemicals and vials, right?
28:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Like a sci-fi movie.
28:02
Speaker 1: But that isn't the reality at all. How does a
28:04
Speaker 1: large language model, a text generator, actually pose a biological threat?
28:09
Speaker 2: The threat is not physical. It is informational.
28:12
Speaker 1: Okay. Explain that.
28:13
Speaker 2: Advanced AI models are trained on massive data sets, right?
28:17
Speaker 2: Which include millions of scientific papers, genomic sequences, and complex
28:21
Speaker 2: chemical analyses.
28:23
Speaker 1: Basically the entirety of human biological knowledge.
28:25
Speaker 2: Right. The danger arises because these models possess the ability
28:29
Speaker 2: to synthesize this disparate information at speeds that are just
28:33
Speaker 2: impossible for a human researcher.
28:35
Speaker 1: So it connects the dots faster.
28:37
Speaker 2: Exactly. A bad actor doesn't ask the AI to literally
28:40
Speaker 2: build a bomb. They ask the AI to optimize the
28:43
Speaker 2: protein folding sequence of a known pathogen to increase its transmissibility.
28:48
Speaker 1: Whoa.
28:49
Speaker 2: Or they ask the model to identify the supply chain
28:51
Speaker 2: loopholes for acquiring specific, heavily regulated organic compounds required for
28:56
Speaker 2: aerosolizing a virus.
28:57
Speaker 1: So they use the AI as a hyper-intelligent, completely amoral
29:01
Speaker 1: research assistant to just bypass the years of trial and
29:05
Speaker 1: error normally required for biological engineering.
29:07
Speaker 2: That is exactly the issue. The AI bridges the gap
29:10
Speaker 2: between theoretical malice and practical execution.
29:13
Speaker 1: So how do you stop it?
29:14
Speaker 2: Well, companies like Anthropic have to build highly complex dynamic guardrails.
29:19
Speaker 2: They can't just block the word weapon and call it
29:21
Speaker 2: a day.
29:22
Speaker 1: Because the prompts are going to be way more subtle
29:24
Speaker 1: than that.
29:24
Speaker 2: Right. They have to train the model to recognize the
29:27
Speaker 2: underlying intent of a highly technical, seemingly innocuous query about
29:32
Speaker 2: virology or genetic sequencing.
29:34
Speaker 1: And if it detects a vector for weaponization, it refuses
29:38
Speaker 1: to output the data.
29:40
Speaker 2: Exactly. We are fundamentally engaged in an arms race of
29:43
Speaker 2: intent happening entirely within the architecture of our own algorithms.
29:47
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have the technological prowess to anticipate and
29:52
Speaker 1: block a synthetic plague designed by a supercomputer.
29:55
Speaker 2: Yes, we are that advanced.
29:57
Speaker 1: We understand these complex genetic sequences well enough to train
30:00
Speaker 1: an AI to hide them. But then we look at
30:03
Speaker 1: the cyclospora outbreak headline and that entire illusion of human
30:07
Speaker 1: control just completely collapses.
30:09
Speaker 2: It really does. It brings us right back down to Earth.
30:11
Speaker 1: The U.S. government formally declares the outbreak is over, but
30:14
Speaker 1: they throw their hands up and say, we don't know
30:16
Speaker 1: how it started. How does a microbiological threat sweep through
30:20
Speaker 1: a population with all our modern epidemiology and just vanish
30:24
Speaker 1: without a trace?
30:25
Speaker 2: Well, the cyclospora outbreak perfectly illustrates the limits of our
30:29
Speaker 2: technological hubris.
30:30
Speaker 1: What is cyclospora exactly?
30:32
Speaker 2: It's a microscopic parasite. It's typically transmitted through contaminated food
30:36
Speaker 2: or water, very often imported fresh produce like berries or cilantro.
30:41
Speaker 1: Okay.
30:42
Speaker 2: The mechanics of epidemiological tracing rely on finding the physical
30:46
Speaker 2: source actually testing a specific batch of cilantro or a
30:49
Speaker 2: shipment of berries in a lab.
30:51
Speaker 1: So they need the physical evidence.
30:52
Speaker 2: Right. But the latency period between consumption, the onset of symptoms,
30:57
Speaker 2: and then actually reporting those symptoms to a health agency
31:01
Speaker 2: creates this massive temporal blind spot.
31:04
Speaker 1: Because by the time the health officials realize there even
31:06
Speaker 1: is an outbreak, the contaminated food has already been consumed, digested,
31:11
Speaker 1: and flushed away.
31:12
Speaker 2: Precisely. The physical evidence simply no longer exists.
31:15
Speaker 1: It's gone.
31:16
Speaker 2: The supply chain moves way faster than the investigative apparatus.
31:20
Speaker 2: Produce is shipped, distributed, eaten, and disposed of within a
31:23
Speaker 2: matter of days.
31:24
Speaker 1: So they can't swab anything.
31:26
Speaker 2: Right. By the time a cluster of infections is identified
31:29
Speaker 2: and mapped out, investigators are essentially chasing ghosts. They can
31:33
Speaker 2: interview patients about what they ate weeks ago, but, I mean,
31:36
Speaker 2: human memory is notoriously flawed regarding mundane details like the
31:40
Speaker 2: origin of a side salad at a restaurant.
31:43
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you what I ate for lunch last Tuesday.
31:45
Speaker 2: Exactly. Thus, the outbreak runs its biological course, The contaminated
31:50
Speaker 2: shipment works its way completely through the population, and the
31:53
Speaker 2: event concludes, leaving our highly advanced public health infrastructure completely baffled.
31:58
Speaker 1: The juxtaposition of those three headlines is really the ultimate
32:02
Speaker 1: portrait of 2026.
32:03
Speaker 2: It's a wild time to be alive.
32:05
Speaker 1: You could take a hike in the Bay Area and
32:06
Speaker 1: pull a 10,000-year-old monster's tooth out of the ground. You
32:10
Speaker 1: can go back to your apartment, survive a mysterious parasitic
32:14
Speaker 1: infection that the entire federal government cannot trace. And then
32:17
Speaker 1: open your laptop to read that a tech company just
32:21
Speaker 1: successfully thwarted a computer from inventing a biological weapon.
32:25
Speaker 2: We are simultaneously ancient, incredibly vulnerable, and possessing godlike technological capabilities,
32:32
Speaker 2: all operating at the exact same moment in time.
32:35
Speaker 1: It's staggering.
32:36
Speaker 2: It demands a complete recalibration of how we consume information.
32:40
Speaker 2: Being well-informed is no longer just about tracking human behavior
32:44
Speaker 2: or economic trends.
32:45
Speaker 1: Right.
32:45
Speaker 2: It is about holding the tension between our mastery over
32:49
Speaker 2: the digital realm and our profound vulnerability to the physical
32:52
Speaker 2: and biological realities that surround us every day.
32:55
Speaker 1: Well said. We have covered a vast and complex territory
32:58
Speaker 1: in this deep dive today.
32:59
Speaker 2: We really have.
33:00
Speaker 1: We started by exploring the darkest, most calculating motives driven
33:04
Speaker 1: by extreme real estate pressure in the outer sunset, analyzing
33:08
Speaker 1: the psychological fracture required for an arson and a lethal ambush.
33:12
Speaker 2: Then we dissected the bureaucratic paralysis in Seacliff. where massive
33:16
Speaker 2: wealth offers absolutely no protection against the slow grind of
33:20
Speaker 2: the civil court system.
33:21
Speaker 1: We navigated the chilling void of interpersonal betrayal in the
33:24
Speaker 1: South Bay, examining the intense compartmentalization necessary for a person
33:29
Speaker 1: to individually murder their closest friends within a single 24-hour period.
33:35
Speaker 2: We shifted our focus to the generational processing of the
33:38
Speaker 2: September 11th attacks. observing how a 25-year-old macro trauma has
33:42
Speaker 2: to be localized and memorialized by a community just seeking connection.
33:47
Speaker 1: And we just concluded by mapping the extreme boundaries of
33:50
Speaker 1: our reality, from the deep geological time of a mastodon
33:53
Speaker 1: fossil to the invisible threats of untraceable parasites and the
33:57
Speaker 1: synthetic dangers of artificial intelligence.
34:00
Speaker 2: It's a lot to process.
34:01
Speaker 1: It is. We spent this entire time trying to understand
34:03
Speaker 1: the why and the how behind human actions and systemic failures.
34:07
Speaker 1: We mapped out the motives, the laws, and the timelines.
34:10
Speaker 2: We tried to put it all into neat little boxes.
34:12
Speaker 1: Exactly. But that cyclospora outbreak leaves us with a lingering,
34:16
Speaker 1: really provocative reality for you to think about.
34:18
Speaker 2: Because it's unsolved. Right.
34:20
Speaker 1: The government closed the file, openly admitting they have zero
34:23
Speaker 1: idea how the parasite entered the system. And it makes
34:27
Speaker 1: you wonder, as much as we investigate the crimes in
34:30
Speaker 1: our neighborhoods.
34:31
Speaker 2: And as much as we build digital guardrails around our technology.
34:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, as much as we try to explain the human
34:37
Speaker 1: mysteries happening in our own backyards, how much of the
34:40
Speaker 1: natural world is still operating completely invisibly?
34:43
Speaker 2: Unseen forces.
34:45
Speaker 1: Sweeping through our lives, making us sick and vanishing, without
34:48
Speaker 1: us ever truly knowing why. The deepest mysteries might not
34:52
Speaker 1: be the ones we are actively trying to solve. They
34:54
Speaker 1: might be the ones we never even saw coming.