Latest / Elevate Podcast: Powered by Braden / Elevate Ep 54: Dr. Michael Kraus, Chief Medical Director of Indiana Donor Network

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Elevate Ep 54: Dr. Michael Kraus, Chief Medical Director of Indiana Donor Network · Elevate Podcast: Powered by Braden

• 0:02
  Welcome to the Elevate podcast, where
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  every leader has a story. We bring you
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  conversations with influential leaders
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  who are shaping our local communities.
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  Hear about their path to leadership and
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  experiences that define them and how
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  they're driving meaningful impact today.
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  Hey everybody, Jason here with another
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  episode of the Elevate Powered by Braden
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  podcast. And this one's fun. I I've
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  enjoyed all these conversations so far.
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  Love all the for-profit guys, the
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  nonprofit folks, and and some of them
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  though just have some really, really
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  great story. Every story's been good.
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  This one, though, is is pretty awesome.
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  And I gotta say, we've had some good
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  dressed people, well-dressed people in
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  the studio, but you're the first bow tie
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  guy. And so, welcome to the studio,
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  Michael. Good to have you in here.
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  >> Yeah, the bow tie is an interesting
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  story. Kind of went with the the
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  mustache, you know. Okay.
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  >> The mustache comes first. A beard much
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  like yours.
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  >> All right. Right.
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  >> I was going to shave it off after my
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  youngest got married
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  >> and just for a change. And my wife said,
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  "No, I've never seen you without facial
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  hair. You've got to have a must. You got
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  to have something at least." Right.
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  Exactly. And I said, "If you're going to
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  have a mustache,
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  >> I'm going to have a mustache."
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  >> Okay.
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  >> So, I went ahead and drew that and the
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  bow tie followed a little bit shortly
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  after that.
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  >> Yeah. One New Year's Eve, I just had to
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  figure it out to put it on. And no
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  kidding, since then, I haven't changed.
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  You know, you're at you're at Indiana
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  Donor Network today and I know we'll
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  talk about that as part of your story
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  and we'll get there, but you when you
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  and I first met, obviously the mustache
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  is memorable. The bow tie is memorable
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  colors. I love the colors of the bow
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  tie, by the way. But I was generally
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  surprised that it was kind of like a
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  later in life thing.
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  >> Yeah, exactly.
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  >> You know, a lot of times you see bow tie
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  guys, they start early and the handlebar
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  mustache start early. You embraced it
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  late.
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  >> I did. Never could not tie a bow tie
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  before.
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  >> That's the science guy. If you want to
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  learn how to do boat a tie bow tie,
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  watch his YouTube video.
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  >> Oh, no kidding.
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  >> Absolutely. As you're already dropping
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  knowledge for us. I love it. So, all
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  right. So, your role before we go back
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  to your beginning, your role today at
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  Indiana Donor Network is I'm the chief
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  medical director at Indiana Donor
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  Network.
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  >> That's awesome, man.
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  >> All right. Okay. Let's go back to the
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  beginning. Where you from originally?
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  >> I was born and raised in Griffith,
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  Indiana.
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  >> Griffith, Indiana. I actually don't know
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  a lot about Griffith. So, is that up in
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  the Northwest?
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  >> It's up in the region.
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  >> Okay.
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  >> All right. Right by Hammond Gary area
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  was Chicago. Okay. So the region area
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  Okay. So high school up there. High
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  school up there and then I went to Wbash
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  College. Okay. So I actually was just in
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  W Bash talking to the mayor the other
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  day of Wbash which wall I was in
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  Crawfordville.
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  >> Yes. I was in Crawford'sville.
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  >> Exactly.
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  >> And uh talking to the mayor there. Great
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  guy by the way. So all right let's go
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  back to high school. So before you
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  decide to go to W Bash, what's high
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  school look like? And before you get out
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  of high school, what are you thinking
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  you're going to do? Is college obviously
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  W bash, but where do you think your
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  career is going to go?
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  >> I was one of those weird people that
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  grew up wanting to be a doctor.
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  >> Really was there weren't a whole lot of
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  alternative pathways that ever passed
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  through. I was fortunately good at math
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  and science.
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  >> Okay. So, you were naturally good at
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  those things, but where was the genesis?
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  Why, you know, was it was there a family
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  member or something you had seen? what
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  was there? There probably was, but even
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  before then, but at a young age, my
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  mother was very sick with a disease
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  called lupus,
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  >> all sorts of illnesses from it, and it
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  was early in long enough because I'm
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  old. So, it was long enough ago that we
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  didn't have good treatments for it.
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  >> Okay. So, it was supposed to be a fatal
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  disease.
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  >> Yeah.
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  >> Fortunately, she went to up to Mayo and
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  and to uh Rush Crusher or St. in Chicago
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  and I got connected with some very good
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  neurologists and rheumatologists and was
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  started on a novel therapy at the time
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  cytoxin
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  >> which I've used multiple times since
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  then. Sure. It was brand new and and not
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  well studied. She was fortunate because
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  it saved her life.
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  >> No kidding. So, so some of that in there
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  clearly continued to push the direction.
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  >> Yeah. So, at a young age, emotional,
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  right? mom's sick and and but is able to
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  go and in your eyes you're seeing people
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  help her right and so you're think okay
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  this is where I want to go so good in
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  all the things you need to be good in
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  naturally math science those types of
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  things you finish up high school why
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  decide go why why wall bash why go there
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  >> wash I I hadn't heard of first of all
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  Griffith you don't hear much about wash
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  >> okay
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  >> dad saw that that year interesting three
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  of us went um which was pretty good size
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  for that class uh but you know you went
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  to the different colleges look around
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  and W bash was one where you felt like
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  you were getting knowledge you were well
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  well cared for if you did well at Wab
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  Bash you would do well at what you do
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  next
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  >> okay yeah I think it the mayor maybe
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  said they don't they don't teach you how
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  to something they don't teach you how to
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  they don't teach you things they teach
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  you how to learn there was some kind of
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  thing he said about it
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  >> you definitely learned to be a leader
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  there
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  >> yeah maybe that's want to know and and
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  the it was much different than you know
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  it's a small obviously small liberal
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  arts college you have a male which
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  >> we could discuss it a little different
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  >> but uh you you you were you were
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  directed and you were were helped it's
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  where I first learned I couldn't talk
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  region anymore couldn't speak region
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  anymore
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  >> okay wait a second so so you couldn't
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  speak region so you had to lose like
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  your region accent
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  >> I gave my first speech at my in my
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  speech class there
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  looked said that was fine you did a very
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  Good job. You say dem's or dos anymore
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  and you're going to get an F.
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  >> Dem D's or so. So So you had you had a
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  region accent. I had a region accent. It
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  had to go quick.
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  >> No kidding. Oh my gosh, that's
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  hilarious. By the way, okay, so four
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  years there, Waw Bash. And as you're as
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  you're finishing up, always kind of
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  wanted to go into medicine, but as
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  you're finishing up Waw Bash, where do
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  you where do you think you want to go?
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  what what area of medicine and and where
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  do you want to go and what happens for
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  you next?
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  >> Yeah, it was interesting because I
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  didn't know. Right. Again, you're
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  learning and moving in a process. I
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  didn't come from a family of physicians.
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  >> Yeah. Right.
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  >> Uh and uh I always thought, well, gee,
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  I'd be a family practitioner, some small
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  town taking.
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  >> Okay.
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  >> Okay. Turns out nobody wants to marry a
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  man that just takes chickens for pay.
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  So, so, so going going to but but you
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  were kind of thinking going to a small
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  city,
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  >> small small place. Yeah. Care of
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  patients, taking care of people.
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  >> Okay. All right. So, that's what you're
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  kind of thinking, but what do you
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  actually do when you get out of school?
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  >> Then I I I went to medical school.
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  >> Okay.
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  >> Also a great place to for the next part
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  of my career. And uh you just pay
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  attention, right? And you're learning
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  what you want to do because I was open
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  to almost anything, right?
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  >> So, at that point, you're an open book.
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  I am. You're willing to listen and take
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  in some knowledge obviously, but you're
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  not exactly sure where you want to go,
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  >> right?
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  >> Is there a point when you're at IU
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  medical school where anything clicks or
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  or what happens there?
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  >> Yeah, I I was always leaning towards an
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  internal medicine subsp specialty oral
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  medicine as a career even as a primary
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  care doctor. Uh and I went that way. I
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  love surgery. I had a great time in
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  surgery, but it cleared that was not
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  going to be a long-term career for me,
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  right? Um
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  so then I went into internal medicine
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  that internal medicine you get a chance
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  to look at the subscology
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  or kidneys
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  >> okay
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  >> struck me for a lot of reasons one is
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  there's math to it there's logic to it
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  if you understand how the body works do
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  kidney really so so it was it felt that
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  way and people tended to respect you but
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  more importantly to me I was able to see
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  that you could take care of people for
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  longer periods of time. I didn't just
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  want to sculpt you or fix your heart and
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  then never see you again.
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  >> Oh, incest or kidney patients. I I would
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  follow them literally for decades when I
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  was practicing. No, no kid. I still get
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  occasional texts from patients I had
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  that had children because I helped take
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  care of them because that kidney disease
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  was difficult to be pregnant and carry a
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  pregnancy. And every every holiday I get
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  texts. So, thank you so much. and she
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  sends me pictures of her kids and it's
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  the kind of experience you want, right?
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  It's just getting people better, taking
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  care of them through it,
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  >> both while they're ill and getting
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  better, but also at the end of life,
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  which is an important part of medicine
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  in my opinion.
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  >> You know, it's it's fascinating by the
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  way. So, I've had a lot of folks that
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  have assist sat in this chair and had a
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  conversation with us and first doctor,
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  right? first doctor that I've had come
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  through and when you talked about like
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  the the kidneys and how that's something
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  if you understand how the body works and
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  those things I didn't really think of it
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  as being like mechanics right right
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  understanding that you know this
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  function because of this and this is
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  this and this is this and so but to you
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  it was the long-term patient care
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  >> right
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  >> that you're really interested in so that
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  that's okay that's interesting so you
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  finish up your school IU Bloomington is
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  where you went that was actually
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  Indianapolis
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  >> Indianapolis Okay. So, I use I believe
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  let's go.
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  >> All right. So, at this point, you've
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  moved from the region, you went down to
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  Crawford'sville. Now, you end up in
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  Indianapolis. All right. Finishing up IU
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  Indie. Where do you go? What's What's
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  your first job look like?
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  >> Well, after you finish medical school,
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  you do your training.
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  >> Yep.
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  >> So, if you're in internal medicine, you
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  do three years of residency, internship
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  in residency that I also did at the
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  school of medicine.
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  >> So, when you do that, I've heard, are
• 9:25
  there opportunities where you have to
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  travel for that? Were you lucky to do it
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  at IU School of Medicine? Were you able
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  to take it anywhere you wanted to?
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  >> You put in what for a match, right? And
• 9:35
  list where you want to go. Yeah. You
• 9:37
  list who who they want. Y
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  >> the computer figures out where you're
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  going to go.
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  >> So where were the places you were
• 9:42
  looking at? You remember?
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  >> I was mostly Midwest.
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  >> Midwest. Okay. So I wasn't around here.
• 9:46
  There there are lots of great medical
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  schools and residencies in the Midwest.
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  You know, most the academic type places
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  because I wanted to stay in academics.
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  >> Okay. Gotcha. Not the small hospital but
• 9:57
  more the yeah the university programs.
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  >> Gotcha. So you do your three years IU ND
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  you finish up there. So now so now you
• 10:04
  are ready to go and and go out into the
• 10:08
  world and you're right doctor and I
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  could be an internist at that point at
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  that point.
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  >> But if you want to then subsp
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  specialcialize goiology gastronurology
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  endocrinology yeah or kidneys any of
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  those subsp specialties you then take a
• 10:22
  fellowship. So, so let let me follow the
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  So, four years a while back.
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  >> Hey, it's a long time,
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  >> right?
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  >> Three years at IU.
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  >> Four years.
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  >> Four years IU,
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  >> right?
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  >> Three years of uh res
• 10:36
  >> residency. So, now we're 11 years and
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  you've got to go now how many more years
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  >> fellowship. I did a three-year
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  fellowship.
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  >> Okay. The fellowship was out here in
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  India also.
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  >> Oh, that I went to University of Iowa.
• 10:45
  >> Okay. University of Iowa. And you have
• 10:47
  to do that in person. So, you
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  >> Yeah, that was Yeah, that was travel and
• 10:50
  move. and I was relatively newly wed and
• 10:53
  my wife wasn't overly excited about
• 10:54
  moving to Iowa City, Iowa, but we
• 10:56
  learned to love it.
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  >> All right. So, so all right, let's talk
• 10:58
  a little bit about that. Right. So, it's
• 11:00
  a little bit of family and that kind of
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  stuff. So, you get married here in
• 11:04
  Indie,
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  >> right? And uh you decide, okay, now I've
• 11:08
  got to go out and do this next thing.
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  So, you've got to pick up your young
• 11:10
  wife,
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  >> right,
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  >> at that point and move her to Iowa. And
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  I'm assuming she's not from Iowa.
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  >> No, she is from Northwest Indiana as
• 11:16
  well.
• 11:17
  >> Okay. All right. So, so yeah, we were we
• 11:20
  we got married midway through medical
• 11:22
  school. So, so two years into medical
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  school, third, second, third year. So,
• 11:25
  we were married two years and had one
• 11:27
  two children at that time.
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  >> Oh, no kidding. So, not only not only
• 11:31
  having to pick up your young wife, you
• 11:32
  got to pick up two kids and move to
• 11:33
  Iowa,
• 11:34
  >> right?
• 11:34
  >> Okay. So, now you're in Iowa.
• 11:36
  >> We've been married five years. I got to
• 11:37
  get it right. Pick up my years right,
• 11:39
  but yes.
• 11:39
  >> Okay. So, this is right about five
• 11:40
  years, but young young family,
• 11:43
  >> young family and we moved to Iowa.
• 11:44
  >> All right. We're going to Iowa. And so,
• 11:46
  all right. So, so now out in Iowa, how
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  many years were you there?
• 11:49
  >> Three. Actually, I was there three for
• 11:51
  fellowship and then a year and a half as
• 11:53
  a faculty member.
• 11:54
  >> Okay. So, half alltogether.
• 11:56
  >> Okay. All right. So, after was 15 years
• 11:59
  total, give or take.
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  >> Yep.
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  >> Okay. After 15 years, you now are
• 12:04
  prepared to be able to do to work with
• 12:07
  folks and help them with their kidneys.
• 12:08
  Is that right?
• 12:09
  >> Right.
• 12:09
  >> Okay. All right. So, out of out of Iowa,
• 12:12
  you finish up, you got a year and a half
• 12:14
  there. where's the story go next? How do
• 12:16
  you end up back out here in India?
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  >> So, I always enjoyed academics.
• 12:19
  >> Okay.
• 12:20
  >> Stand a little bit of the cutting edge,
• 12:22
  a little bit of research, do the things
• 12:23
  and still, you know, even though all
• 12:25
  that years of experience, there's still
• 12:27
  a lot to learn, right? And so, I wanted
• 12:29
  to stay in research for a while. So,
• 12:31
  that's why I stayed at Iowa a year and a
• 12:33
  half. And okay, there I was working on
• 12:35
  animals and cells and things like that,
• 12:37
  figure out how things work. And I
• 12:39
  realized that
• 12:40
  >> I'd prefer taking care of people. So,
• 12:42
  okay. I wanted to go still to an
• 12:45
  academic institution but move more from
• 12:48
  the basic science research to
• 12:50
  administrative and patient care.
• 12:52
  >> Okay.
• 12:53
  >> And so opportunity opened up at Indiana
• 12:55
  University. So I came back in ' 92 in
• 12:58
  November of '92 to Indiana University
• 13:00
  where I stayed for an awfully long time.
• 13:02
  >> And that's really where I mean at the
• 13:03
  beginning at your genesis, right? So
• 13:05
  your your mom has lupus, you see the
• 13:08
  doctors help her, you realize you want
• 13:11
  to be able to help people, right? And so
• 13:13
  you want to go into medicine. Now you're
• 13:15
  back at at um Indiana school. You're at
• 13:17
  the Indiana um IU medicine, right?
• 13:20
  Right. So you're at the hospital and
• 13:23
  what's that role look like and what's
• 13:24
  the journey because you were there for
• 13:25
  how many years? For just over 25.
• 13:27
  >> Okay, gotcha. So what was that? What
• 13:29
  would that look like for?
• 13:30
  >> Yeah, it is an interesting journey,
• 13:32
  right? And the beauty of going to a
• 13:34
  place that a is growing and is on the
• 13:38
  edge is you can position your job to fit
• 13:42
  what makes you happy.
• 13:44
  >> So wow. So you know I'm able to find
• 13:47
  roles, start new programs and I'm
• 13:49
  willing to start work aggressively with
• 13:51
  transplantation at the early time
• 13:53
  because the
• 13:54
  >> the medicine part of transplant we
• 13:56
  weren't quite there yet at Indiana
• 13:57
  University. So I helped bring that up
• 13:59
  and grow it and gave it to people
• 14:00
  smarter than me. Okay. Uh and a lot of
• 14:04
  leadership and administrative roles came
• 14:06
  my way. So I was able to become the
• 14:08
  clinical chief of neurology over time.
• 14:10
  Oh and I ran the dialysis units and
• 14:12
  diialysis organization. Worked very
• 14:14
  closely with IU Health as it was
• 14:16
  growing. You went through went from IU
• 14:19
  to Clarion Health and I I was there
• 14:22
  through that transition.
• 14:23
  >> No kidding. So you you got a chance and
• 14:25
  I like how you said that and whether
• 14:27
  you're in medicine or or in business,
• 14:29
  you had a chance because of a
• 14:31
  forwardthinking organization to be able
• 14:34
  to go do something that really energized
• 14:37
  you, right? That you wanted to do in
• 14:38
  your career. So you got 25 years of and
• 14:41
  I was fortunate our our as chiefs
• 14:44
  changed because they come and go in
• 14:45
  medicine. We we got we be we were fairly
• 14:47
  stable and I worked under Dr. Molarus
• 14:50
  >> who was our chie chief of nefrology. I
• 14:53
  became the clinical chief under him. Uh
• 14:55
  and he was an excellent leader that kind
• 14:57
  of would give you the ability to
• 14:58
  succeed.
• 14:59
  >> Yeah.
• 14:59
  >> Micromanage and
• 15:01
  >> allowed me to grow as a leader and learn
• 15:04
  as well as grow the program and we made
• 15:06
  huge strides. Went from a relatively
• 15:08
  small clinical organization to a very
• 15:10
  large clinical organization.
• 15:12
  >> Wow.
• 15:12
  >> And built a very large dialysis unit
• 15:15
  outside of the the big change which I'll
• 15:18
  go to next. Yeah. Yeah. We were among
• 15:22
  people that weren't in big chains. We
• 15:23
  were among the top 10 or 15.
• 15:25
  >> No kidding.
• 15:26
  >> Yeah. And that was just the Indiana
• 15:28
  area. We grew that from virtually
• 15:30
  nothing.
• 15:30
  >> Yeah. It it's it's great to hear and to
• 15:32
  translate again from from medicine back
• 15:34
  into like into the business world for
• 15:36
  folks that are listening. You had a a
• 15:39
  leader, right,
• 15:40
  >> who was a didn't micromanage, allowed
• 15:42
  you to go be successful. Again, that
• 15:45
  that's that translates across any type
• 15:46
  of business out there, right? leadership
• 15:48
  and you see what people that work for
• 15:50
  you have.
• 15:51
  >> You allow it to to excel and exceed,
• 15:54
  right? Yeah. He could have said no to
• 15:56
  most things I asked them to do. It would
• 15:58
  have then dwarfed me and probably
• 16:00
  changed my career. But he understood
• 16:02
  >> we both had similar passions and goals.
• 16:04
  We wanted to see the growth. He was a
• 16:07
  very strong basic scientist,
• 16:10
  >> academic physician. I was strong
• 16:12
  clinically. So I was able to take the
• 16:14
  lead at the clinical arm. He drove the
• 16:16
  academic armor. worked together very
• 16:18
  closely.
• 16:18
  >> Ah, it's terrific. And again, not to
• 16:21
  beat a dead horse with this point
• 16:22
  though, but like you understood your
• 16:25
  real, you know, things you could do well
• 16:27
  and he understood his strengths and the
• 16:29
  ability to put those things together.
• 16:31
  One, it takes the right kind of people
• 16:32
  to do it. And two, it takes the right
• 16:34
  kind of leader to surround themselves
• 16:36
  with the people that can do the things
• 16:38
  they can't do, right? That that's
• 16:39
  terrific to hear. So 25 years give or
• 16:43
  take over over there and then kind of a
• 16:45
  big change. So what happened that
• 16:47
  >> big change? Yeah. I went from academics
• 16:48
  to industry.
• 16:50
  >> Okay.
• 16:51
  >> I used to call the dart site.
• 16:52
  >> So So you make a big change. I mean that
• 16:54
  that's a big change.
• 16:55
  >> Your wound change. Yeah.
• 16:56
  >> So So what's that change? What's it look
• 16:58
  like for you?
• 16:59
  >> Well, I I went there for a particular
• 17:02
  reason. I I I ended up specializing or
• 17:06
  really closely specializing in home
• 17:07
  heodiialysis to and home para dialysis,
• 17:11
  but being able to do dialysis at home.
• 17:13
  >> I'm a patient. I want freedom. I want
• 17:16
  ability to take care of my medicine. I
• 17:18
  want to feel better and do abnormal
• 17:20
  things, work full-time. Sure,
• 17:22
  >> it's very hard to do in a diialysis
• 17:24
  chair three times a week.
• 17:25
  >> Oh, because you've got to be there for
• 17:27
  some long period. That's only there four
• 17:29
  hours, three times a week. It usually
• 17:30
  you feel terrible for the next 24 hours
• 17:33
  or six to 24 hours.
• 17:35
  >> Okay.
• 17:35
  >> But imagine trying to work a full-time
• 17:37
  work schedule and three days a week
• 17:39
  you're shot. Um when you do home
• 17:41
  diialysis, you can do it when you want,
• 17:43
  right? It's on your schedule and I
• 17:45
  learned quickly and taught my patients
• 17:47
  quickly that it was about physiology. It
• 17:49
  was about mimicking closer to what we do
• 17:52
  every day. So frequency of dialysis
• 17:54
  matters rather just three days a week. I
• 17:56
  convince my patients five and six days a
• 17:58
  week we're better dialysis.
• 18:00
  >> Oh, so you actually change. So instead
• 18:02
  of being for example four hours on a
• 18:04
  machine three times a week, they're on,
• 18:06
  you know, five times a week, but it's
• 18:07
  two hours.
• 18:08
  >> Two and a half to three hours usually
• 18:10
  because you got to take time to get the
• 18:11
  fluid off. Okay. But doing slower and
• 18:13
  longer or more frequent
• 18:16
  >> is better for the heart, better for the
• 18:17
  system. You don't have postialysis
• 18:19
  fatigue. You can't feel great. You work
• 18:21
  full-time. You travel. You do the things
• 18:24
  you want to do. And you have as close to
• 18:25
  a normal life as you can have, but
• 18:27
  something is hard to do as dialysis.
• 18:29
  Well, it's inter like like it's
• 18:30
  interesting you mentioned you went to
• 18:31
  the dark side, but you can hear in that
• 18:35
  story why you would have wanted to go
• 18:38
  over there because it's about the
• 18:39
  patient care and the long-term health of
• 18:42
  that patient. That's what energizes and
• 18:43
  what you like.
• 18:44
  >> Right. Exactly. And at that time,
• 18:47
  CMS, which is the government payment
• 18:49
  system, most people, not all, but most
• 18:51
  people on diialysis are on Medicare. So
• 18:53
  CMS controls dialysis and how it's paid
• 18:56
  for. They were looking at the home
• 18:57
  diialysis world because I was growing it
• 18:59
  fast enough with industry uh at Indiana
• 19:03
  that it was hitting somebody's radar
• 19:05
  screen.
• 19:06
  >> Uh and frequency was hitting their radar
• 19:08
  screen because they'd pay every time you
• 19:09
  do dialysis.
• 19:10
  >> Okay.
• 19:10
  >> So, they wanted to propose legislation
• 19:13
  that would limit that. So, they wouldn't
• 19:16
  pay for the frequency of dialysis in a
• 19:18
  way that made sense to me. M
• 19:20
  >> and so I went I actually filled my car
• 19:22
  with uh two patients and one wife care
• 19:25
  partner and we drove from Indianapolis
• 19:27
  to uh Madison to talk to the MAC which
• 19:31
  is the small part of CMS that pays the
• 19:34
  insurance.
• 19:34
  >> Okay.
• 19:35
  >> And we they gave us 10 minutes to talk
• 19:38
  about we believe and so I spoke for 10
• 19:41
  minutes. My patient spoke for 10
• 19:43
  minutes. We're driving back there asleep
• 19:44
  right late. So,
• 19:46
  >> sure.
• 19:46
  >> And and I'm thinking I got to do
• 19:48
  something that impacts more than just
• 19:51
  the patients I care for, the patients my
• 19:54
  fellows care for, training that I do,
• 19:57
  >> which was very rewarding, but I felt I
• 19:59
  needed to do something bigger.
• 20:00
  >> Yeah.
• 20:01
  >> And I couldn't do that and still be tied
• 20:03
  at the academic. So I moved to industry
• 20:05
  through the company that did the
• 20:07
  dialysis next stage medical and I worked
• 20:10
  for them until they were bought by
• 20:12
  first.
• 20:13
  >> Okay.
• 20:13
  >> Medical care and I work for first.
• 20:15
  >> Gotcha. Okay. All right. So So you're
• 20:16
  you're on the dark side.
• 20:18
  >> Yeah.
• 20:18
  >> But but actually for you it it's exactly
• 20:20
  where you want to be at that point in
• 20:22
  time. I do helping patients.
• 20:24
  >> You work a little bit for the
• 20:25
  organization that acquired you guys. And
• 20:28
  so it is the next step. What what's the
• 20:30
  next step for you after that? So at next
• 20:33
  stage we I worked both on the dialysis
• 20:36
  side as well as device side and we
• 20:38
  helped and we talked about how we're
• 20:39
  linking the device how we approve it and
• 20:41
  the shared things and worked I would you
• 20:42
  know it's was small enough company I
• 20:44
  worked marketing sales and really had a
• 20:46
  very nice time learned a lot right yeah
• 20:48
  again that's part of the world that I
• 20:50
  hadn't done and forcious is a much
• 20:52
  bigger organization it's the world's
• 20:54
  largest diialysis organization
• 20:55
  >> okay
• 20:56
  >> um so it was a yet still different and
• 20:58
  there I moved a little bit away from
• 21:00
  device I still talk to them and worked
• 21:02
  with them, but it wasn't I was more in
• 21:04
  charge of growing home dialysis
• 21:07
  in the United States.
• 21:09
  >> Oh, I see. So, so actually you're kind
• 21:12
  of rounding out a lot of your career at
• 21:13
  this point, right? Because now you're
• 21:15
  seeing lots of different areas of
• 21:17
  medicine in different ways to be able to
• 21:19
  help. Okay. And so you're in this role
• 21:22
  and eventually we know you end up at
• 21:24
  Indiana Donor, right?
• 21:25
  >> Yeah. So I I was there for seven and a
• 21:27
  half eight years and then there was a
• 21:28
  reduction in force and just like many
• 21:30
  people the medical office goes through
• 21:32
  that as well. Sure. I was asked to look
• 21:34
  for another job. So I said thank you
• 21:36
  very much. I will I was asked to asked
• 21:38
  to go seek employment somewhere else. We
• 21:40
  a lot of folks have been there.
• 21:42
  >> So So I was looking around and trying to
• 21:43
  find what I wanted to because I'm I'm at
• 21:45
  an age where most people would retire or
• 21:47
  some people would retire. I'm not there
• 21:49
  yet.
• 21:50
  >> Yeah.
• 21:50
  >> Um and so I was looking around and what
• 21:53
  what would be exciting to me? and talked
• 21:55
  to a couple other dial diialysis
• 21:57
  organizations. I started a little
• 21:59
  consulting firm.
• 22:00
  >> Okay.
• 22:01
  >> Which I did a little bit of work on
• 22:02
  which was actually nice. It's and but I
• 22:04
  had to think is that the kind of thing I
• 22:06
  want to do where just going from job to
• 22:08
  job
• 22:09
  >> maybe not a consistent source of income
• 22:12
  and didn't really fit my lifestyle. I
• 22:14
  don't think so.
• 22:15
  >> Yeah. Well, I was I was able to do some
• 22:18
  things that were successful there. I
• 22:19
  wasn't I I need something that's
• 22:21
  grounded. Right. Well, also if you think
• 22:24
  about it, everything I've heard so far,
• 22:26
  you're you're a helper, right? You you
• 22:29
  enjoy
• 22:30
  a long-term journey with folks and
• 22:32
  helping them live, you know, more
• 22:35
  sustainable lives or or healthier lives
• 22:37
  or whatever the case is, right? Or a
• 22:39
  more uh being able to work a full-time
• 22:41
  job, right? So, for you, it's wanting to
• 22:44
  be able to help and just, you know,
• 22:47
  sitting on the sidelines retired. That's
• 22:48
  going to be tough,
• 22:49
  >> right? And I want a job that has
• 22:51
  purpose. Yeah,
• 22:52
  >> sure. A friend of mine was actually the
• 22:54
  interim chief medical director there.
• 22:56
  >> Okay.
• 22:56
  >> He was covering but didn't want to
• 22:58
  forever. He before he was the network
• 23:00
  for a long time, but for for a year and
• 23:03
  a half or so, I he was the interrupt.
• 23:06
  >> And another friend of mine had called me
• 23:07
  and said, "This job's open. You need to
• 23:09
  look at it. It's okay. It's made for
• 23:11
  you." So
• 23:12
  >> So a couple of folks that have known you
• 23:14
  for years said, "Hey, mine's like this
• 23:16
  is this is really right up your alley."
• 23:19
  >> Right. So now Okay. It's an IUNDF at
• 23:21
  Indiana Donor Network and I think I mean
• 23:24
  obviously we see the building when we
• 23:25
  drive down the road, right? And maybe we
• 23:27
  think we know a little bit about it, but
• 23:29
  I mean tell us more about Indiana Donor
• 23:31
  Network. What is it you guys do?
• 23:32
  >> Yeah, I'm I'm going to back you up there
• 23:33
  for a little.
• 23:34
  >> Bring it on. Show us that and you
• 23:36
  remember because you you visited me
• 23:38
  there. You walk in into the atrium.
• 23:41
  >> Yeah.
• 23:41
  >> Right. Then you you feel the mission of
• 23:44
  of Indiana Donor Network. We have the
• 23:46
  the uh donor memorial tree.
• 23:48
  >> The tree. Yeah. which is four stories
• 23:49
  high with 82 lanterns on it. Uh and we
• 23:53
  put each donor in there so families can
• 23:55
  Yeah. And
• 23:57
  >> remember and memorize and memor
• 24:00
  fond memories of their donor heroes,
• 24:02
  >> right?
• 24:02
  >> Uh and we've got all the donor heroes
• 24:04
  listed.
• 24:05
  >> Yeah. And in the computer system and
• 24:07
  it's just it says this is what we do,
• 24:10
  right?
• 24:10
  >> Yeah. I take care of people at their
• 24:13
  while they're not Yeah. families at
• 24:15
  their worst moments and then we care for
• 24:18
  them long term.
• 24:19
  >> Yeah. Uh and we provide the lanterns
• 24:21
  each represent the gifts that we give to
• 24:23
  people that get transplant that either
• 24:25
  donor uh organ donors or tissue donors.
• 24:28
  Uh and it just hits all those things and
• 24:31
  you see that and
• 24:32
  >> the first thing you do when you walk in
• 24:33
  and you know that's the right place,
• 24:35
  right?
• 24:35
  >> Yeah. You know, I I I remember the first
• 24:37
  time I mentioned we walked in there and
• 24:40
  we we walked in and I thought, "This is
• 24:41
  this is a beautiful
• 24:44
  art, you know, decoration type thing."
• 24:46
  That's what I'm thinking originally.
• 24:47
  Sure. Right. As we begin to walk around,
• 24:50
  you tell me the story and what it means.
• 24:51
  I remember standing there and hearing
• 24:54
  the sounds, right, all the different
• 24:56
  things and kind of just looking and
• 24:57
  especially when I looked up and you
• 24:59
  could see the rest of the tree. There
• 25:01
  was there was an emotional piece.
• 25:03
  >> Absolutely. for for a period of time
• 25:05
  there that was just I know I was struck,
• 25:09
  right? And so I think anybody who would
• 25:11
  walk into that building would be struck
• 25:12
  as well. Then we went over and looked at
• 25:13
  a screen and you could see the donor
• 25:15
  heroes there. And then I got an
• 25:18
  opportunity to sit down and talk to you
• 25:19
  to learn more about just how you guys
• 25:21
  operate and what you do, right? And and
• 25:23
  how you're able to help people like you
• 25:25
  said, you're in some of the worst times,
• 25:28
  right? How you're able to come in and
• 25:30
  what you guys do. So, you know, I think
• 25:33
  it it's it it would be great to
• 25:35
  understand, you know, a little bit more
• 25:38
  about the services you guys preserve,
• 25:40
  right? Those types of things. And then
• 25:41
  also maybe some ways that people don't
• 25:44
  know how they could maybe get involved
• 25:45
  might be interesting, right?
• 25:46
  >> Absolutely. So, so everybody thinks they
• 25:49
  understand transplant, right? Yeah. An
• 25:50
  organ you replace an organ that's not
• 25:52
  working and and it's good, but they
• 25:55
  don't understand the process of recovery
• 25:58
  of the organs and how important that is.
• 26:00
  And even when they think about it at
• 26:02
  that time and thinking about 30 seconds
• 26:06
  of operation over six six hours
• 26:09
  operation gets and putting it in a
• 26:11
  cooler and sending on its way. It's
• 26:13
  nothing like that. Right. Right. So the
• 26:15
  process of doing this is is important.
• 26:18
  So it's you know it's 365 days a year
• 26:20
  247. Yuck. Always our services are
• 26:23
  always on to cover the entire state of
• 26:25
  Indiana.
• 26:26
  >> So So our people are going somewhere
• 26:28
  every day. Right.
• 26:29
  >> Yeah. Right. Um, and so you've got to
• 26:33
  have people that are able to talk to
• 26:35
  families at this time, you know,
• 26:38
  understanding when the right time is to
• 26:39
  talk to the family, understanding how to
• 26:42
  talk to the family. So those are tend to
• 26:44
  be more of our social workers. We have a
• 26:46
  much of them that goes around the state
• 26:47
  as well. Uh, then you obviously have to
• 26:50
  have people that care for the patient
• 26:51
  after the family has authorized and said
• 26:53
  yes, please go ahead with donation. Uh
• 26:56
  so we have that group of people another
• 26:58
  set of people that do that help in the
• 27:00
  operating room.
• 27:01
  >> Yeah.
• 27:02
  >> And then we take care of the donor
• 27:04
  families afterwards like I said. So we
• 27:06
  have after care which will
• 27:08
  >> we'll contact you a couple three weeks
• 27:10
  after the the surgery and we'll ask you
• 27:13
  how you're doing, what you need and ask
• 27:15
  if you want any more interventions or
• 27:18
  how you want to and we try to follow
• 27:19
  people for at least two years if not
• 27:21
  longer. Mhm.
• 27:22
  >> And it gives them that option, the the
• 27:24
  ability to adjust to the death, right?
• 27:27
  Uh and understand what their gifts
• 27:30
  belong and what they've done and how
• 27:32
  wonderful of a gift that was to be able
• 27:34
  to donate.
• 27:36
  >> Um and and over time, people you you can
• 27:40
  see that they change. They do that. So
• 27:42
  many of our donor families volunteer to
• 27:46
  work with us. I know kid volunteered to
• 27:48
  talk to other donor families,
• 27:49
  volunteered to help us education,
• 27:51
  volunteer in making the the teddy bears
• 27:53
  we have up there,
• 27:54
  >> which by the way that that's cool.
• 27:56
  Awesome. It's may maybe share a little
• 27:58
  bit. I know not this one here in our
• 27:59
  studio. We're just a little bit behind
• 28:00
  that.
• 28:01
  >> So So part of the afterare and the care
• 28:03
  of the donor families is we we do things
• 28:05
  for them around the time of the donation
• 28:08
  as well as again afterwards. You know,
• 28:10
  when we meet visit you in the hospital,
• 28:11
  we have blankets. We have things that we
• 28:13
  give you, but we also give what we call
• 28:16
  the the heart heartbeat bears.
• 28:19
  >> And what we'll do with that bear is
• 28:20
  we'll take the heart we'll record the
• 28:22
  heartbeat of your loved one and then
• 28:24
  we'll put it in the bear so you always
• 28:25
  have that we'll give you as many as you
• 28:27
  need, right? Yeah. And when you need to,
• 28:29
  you can hear that heartbeat, right?
• 28:31
  Yeah.
• 28:31
  >> And bring back your loved ones.
• 28:33
  >> Yeah. If it's so it's so interesting
• 28:36
  that some of the donor families, right,
• 28:38
  come back and end up wanting to be part
• 28:40
  and help the organization because, you
• 28:43
  know, they they've been through that
• 28:45
  that whole process and there's nothing
• 28:48
  better than talking to folks that have
• 28:50
  been through it and now been on the
• 28:51
  other side because you you can see that,
• 28:54
  you know, all seasons change, right?
• 28:55
  >> Right. And so it's great that those
• 28:57
  folks come back and get involved,
• 28:59
  >> right? And there's so many ways to help,
• 29:01
  right? Sure. So, so we do that and we
• 29:03
  work with families forever. We have a
• 29:05
  huge volunteer organization that does
• 29:06
  this desk does they collect donor pairs.
• 29:09
  It's awesome. The shs and the other
• 29:10
  things are cool too. And so it is
• 29:14
  impressive to watch. And another one
• 29:16
  great program we do which has got
• 29:18
  nothing to do with donation directly but
• 29:21
  again caring for the families. We have a
• 29:23
  donor camp
• 29:25
  donor hero camp. Okay. Donor kid donor
• 29:27
  family camp. I'll get there. It's for
• 29:28
  the kids. Also, every summer we have a
• 29:31
  camp where the kids can go with other
• 29:33
  kids that are of donor families and they
• 29:36
  could talk about things maybe they were
• 29:38
  uncomfortable at home. They could talk
• 29:39
  about their old ones and it's part of
• 29:42
  that grieving process and they come back
• 29:43
  year after year.
• 29:44
  >> Yeah.
• 29:45
  >> And this year I think we're extending
• 29:46
  the duration to almost a week. So it's
• 29:48
  going to be all your old K.
• 29:50
  >> Oh wow. Oh, I mean, what what a great
• 29:51
  opportunity for those kids to come and
• 29:54
  have, you know, a place to share with
• 29:56
  others and and those things and just
• 29:59
  realize they're not alone.
• 30:00
  >> Yeah.
• 30:00
  >> And that they're normal.
• 30:02
  >> Yeah.
• 30:02
  >> And maybe say things and share things
• 30:04
  that they were comfortable sharing
• 30:06
  before because they're they're get, like
• 30:07
  you said, I'm somebody who's been
• 30:09
  through this. It's not
• 30:10
  >> Yeah.
• 30:10
  >> just you anymore.
• 30:11
  >> What What a what a what a great
• 30:12
  opportunity. and and for you like like
• 30:14
  you said the couple of folks that you
• 30:16
  you knew said this job would be you know
• 30:18
  perfect for you and and your role what
• 30:21
  what's what's your role look like? What
• 30:23
  what's what's your day-to-day and and
• 30:26
  how are you kind of operating amongst
• 30:28
  the team over there at Indiana Network?
• 30:30
  >> I I have a a specific job I I'm kind of
• 30:33
  in charge of everything, right? Because
• 30:35
  I'm the chief medical director, but the
• 30:37
  most important part of what I do is make
• 30:39
  sure what we do is safe. Yeah.
• 30:41
  >> Right. both for the donors.
• 30:43
  >> Yeah.
• 30:44
  >> For their families and then obviously
• 30:45
  for the recipient to the organs, right?
• 30:47
  >> Yep.
• 30:47
  >> So I evaluate the patients with my care
• 30:50
  my team of of care team personnel that
• 30:54
  uh you know they go to the hospitals
• 30:56
  they call me. So every day I'm going
• 30:57
  through the list looking at people who
• 31:00
  are potential donors perhaps to share
• 31:02
  people that are authorized for donation
• 31:04
  and we go through the medical care and
• 31:06
  help with the medical care. Okay. uh if
• 31:09
  they're brain dead and we can get back
• 31:10
  to that. We moved it if we can to our
• 31:13
  center. We have a six bed ICU here in
• 31:15
  downtown Indianapolis. If you're not at
• 31:17
  a transplant hospital, we we prefer to
• 31:19
  move you there and I'll take care of
• 31:21
  them there. I'll be their doctor if you
• 31:22
  will.
• 31:23
  >> Okay. Gotcha.
• 31:24
  >> Uh so ensuring the quality of
• 31:26
  transplantation, ensuring the safety of
• 31:29
  the transplant is my most important job.
• 31:32
  >> Yeah.
• 31:32
  >> And then we look at how we're going to
• 31:34
  grow, what's important. already exchit
• 31:41
  all those things. Yeah. We're doing
• 31:43
  things correctly.
• 31:44
  >> But but you could tell when you and I
• 31:45
  first met, you could tell that this job
• 31:47
  is just something that's just it's it's
• 31:49
  you love this. This is this is you're
• 31:52
  able to do everything that you've been
• 31:53
  skilled at over the years. in general
• 31:55
  nefology to eventually ICU care. I did a
• 31:58
  lot early on and then I learned about
• 32:01
  home dialysis and grew that nationally
• 32:03
  as well as locally.
• 32:04
  >> Yeah.
• 32:05
  >> Uh and moving back to transplantation
• 32:07
  just makes perfect sense.
• 32:09
  >> Yeah.
• 32:09
  >> It is by far the best way to take care
• 32:11
  of patients with endorgan disease and
• 32:13
  chronic illness and we just don't have
• 32:15
  enough organs. So making sure that we at
• 32:17
  Indiana Donor Network do everything we
• 32:20
  can get the most or organs for patients
• 32:23
  that need it. give the most care for
• 32:25
  patients needed is what we do.
• 32:27
  >> Yeah.
• 32:27
  >> And you you know obviously patients when
• 32:29
  they're in that state, they're pretty
• 32:31
  ill.
• 32:32
  >> We have to work to make them healthy
• 32:34
  again. We have to make the lungs better
• 32:35
  than they were maybe when we first met
• 32:37
  them. We have to make sure the heart is
• 32:39
  good and do what we can to make the
• 32:40
  heart better.
• 32:41
  >> We got to keep the kidneys profusing,
• 32:42
  the liver going. So it is really
• 32:44
  intensive intensive care which is good
• 32:47
  >> and and uh it was nice to get back to
• 32:50
  taking care of patients and then knowing
• 32:52
  that that that patient was then going to
• 32:54
  help anywhere from you know one to eight
• 32:57
  individuals with organs and up to
• 32:59
  another 75 with tissues.
• 33:01
  >> Yeah. See that that's also something I
• 33:02
  didn't realize that you know they could
• 33:04
  help up to you know 70 or 80 particular
• 33:07
  people and that that's amazing that one
• 33:10
  you know donor hero right has the
• 33:12
  ability to touch the lives of so many
• 33:14
  individuals right
• 33:15
  >> and there you when we organs we all
• 33:17
  think about because it's sexy right
• 33:19
  transplantation organs we know heart
• 33:21
  lungs liver pancreas kidneys and
• 33:23
  sometimes intestine but we don't think
• 33:25
  of tissue yeah it's also exceedingly
• 33:27
  important um but you know things like if
• 33:30
  you have an ACL and you need uh can have
• 33:33
  our ACL maybe from a dead person.
• 33:36
  >> That's where it comes from.
• 33:37
  >> Yeah. Right.
• 33:38
  >> People allow us to get skin, bone,
• 33:42
  >> ligaments, vessels.
• 33:44
  >> Yeah. And so it goes to other people and
• 33:46
  helps so many people.
• 33:48
  >> Yeah. It it's the the thing that touched
• 33:50
  me. I I just remember walking in and and
• 33:52
  seeing the tree and all the different
• 33:53
  things and then and then thinking about,
• 33:57
  you know, you guys call them donor
• 33:58
  heroes. That's truly what they are.
• 34:01
  Absolutely. Because at the end of the
• 34:02
  day, they're they're the hero for 7 8 9
• 34:06
  10 12 15 people, right? That are now
• 34:09
  going to have um you know a different a
• 34:12
  different uh life going forward, have a
• 34:14
  different opportunity. Some of these
• 34:15
  folks are very ill and this is going to
• 34:17
  give them an opportunity to be recovered
• 34:18
  and those things. And they truly are
• 34:20
  heroes. And im and immediately I
• 34:22
  remembered that emotion that kind of
• 34:24
  came to me was you know you think of in
• 34:27
  one way it's extremely sad for one
• 34:29
  family for another family it it's it's a
• 34:32
  blessing
• 34:33
  >> right
• 34:33
  >> right and so you can see good in all of
• 34:36
  those things and it's terrific I
• 34:37
  remember when you and I chatted I'm like
• 34:39
  and this is a job you should do that
• 34:41
  this is something you could tell that
• 34:42
  this was is something you truly enjoyed
• 34:45
  and believed in and and really really
• 34:47
  really loved doing and so it was so neat
• 34:50
  to hear that the first time And I think
• 34:51
  our our uh viewers and listeners will
• 34:54
  like that as well. One of the things
• 34:56
  that we talk about, you know, on this
• 34:58
  show is we talk a little bit about
• 34:59
  technology.
• 35:01
  >> And from a technology perspective, it
• 35:04
  it's it's interesting to hear
• 35:06
  nonprofits, for-profits, large or small
• 35:08
  companies talk about tech. But how's
• 35:11
  tech evolving in your space that's maybe
• 35:14
  helping you guys move things forward or
• 35:16
  grow or change or help people even more?
• 35:18
  technology has expanded rapidly in a
• 35:21
  very short period of time.
• 35:22
  >> Okay,
• 35:24
  >> probably in the last five years. It's a
• 35:25
  complete and I had this conversation
• 35:27
  this morning. It's completely different
• 35:28
  world than it was 5 years ago.
• 35:30
  >> Uh it allows us to do things better and
• 35:34
  again make the most of each gift we get.
• 35:36
  Right? If your donor hero is going to
• 35:40
  donate, we want to make sure we we can
• 35:43
  make the most benefit from that. And
• 35:45
  technology is how we get there. So
• 35:48
  simple things you know we think about
• 35:49
  television everybody's got a place
• 35:51
  school cooler with a heart in it. It's
• 35:52
  not the world anymore, right? All techn
• 35:55
  all technology the we don't put things
• 35:58
  on ice as much. It still happens. We do
• 36:00
  have ice in boxes, but most organs now
• 36:03
  work perfusing and we're putting them in
• 36:05
  a technology that keeps the organ a
• 36:07
  specific temperature
• 36:09
  >> because think about ice. You put a heart
• 36:10
  on ice, you can get ice free in the
• 36:13
  freezer, you know, insistent
• 36:15
  temperature. We can fix that. We know
• 36:17
  exactly the temperature. We can peruse
• 36:19
  organs.
• 36:20
  >> Okay. uh while they're being going
• 36:22
  profusely keeps the organ better because
• 36:24
  it's not just setting.
• 36:25
  >> Sure. Uh so we have devices that peruse
• 36:28
  kidneys, peruse hearts, peruse livers,
• 36:30
  protrudes even lungs and even expand it.
• 36:33
  >> So so now it's it's a it's a healthier
• 36:36
  it's
• 36:36
  >> and and and does it does it can now can
• 36:39
  these be used all over the United States
• 36:41
  now?
• 36:42
  >> Couple things for us. One, it makes the
• 36:44
  organ a better organ because again we
• 36:47
  talked about safety to the recipient.
• 36:48
  Yeah, sure. makes it so the organ is
• 36:50
  more likely to do well for longer.
• 36:52
  >> Okay.
• 36:53
  >> Uh and to as you said, it allows us to
• 36:56
  transport farther.
• 36:57
  >> Yeah. So we're not limited by miles as
• 37:00
  much as we were in the past. We talk
• 37:02
  about 250 nautical miles. Why we do
• 37:04
  nautical miles? I don't know. Go. We
• 37:05
  talk about 250 nautical miles. Uh as our
• 37:08
  general capo, okay, we sent a a kidney
• 37:12
  to a a a child that needed it uh and
• 37:15
  couldn't be matched elsewhere to
• 37:17
  California. No kidding. It's just an
• 37:19
  amazing story, right?
• 37:20
  >> So, a hero here in Indiana was able to
• 37:22
  donate a kidney to a kiddo in California
• 37:25
  because of the way the technology does.
• 37:27
  And also importantly, the technology is
• 37:30
  improved. So, we can monitor that. We
• 37:31
  don't have to be watching it, right?
• 37:33
  Yeah. We can monitor it from
• 37:34
  Indianapolis as it flies all the way to
• 37:35
  Los Angeles, gets to where it needs to
• 37:37
  go and make sure the organ does have
• 37:40
  changes in temperatures or profusion,
• 37:42
  fix things if there are changes, right?
• 37:44
  Yeah. Change the way the fluid flows.
• 37:47
  Um, so it it allows that to happen that
• 37:50
  didn't before.
• 37:52
  >> So, so it should as we continue to grow
• 37:54
  allow us to help more people with more
• 37:57
  equity. Yeah. Right. Uh, and by
• 38:00
  profusing both in the O and separate,
• 38:03
  we're able to do more organs and people
• 38:05
  that we wouldn't have done before. So,
• 38:07
  we
• 38:08
  >> we will look at donor heroes of all
• 38:10
  ages. We don't have an age restriction.
• 38:12
  >> Okay. We uh recently did a donor. It was
• 38:15
  an 83 year old person that donated it
• 38:17
  their liver.
• 38:18
  >> No kidding.
• 38:19
  >> It's amaz.
• 38:22
  >> Wow. So now the availability is going up
• 38:26
  because like you said, we don't we don't
• 38:27
  have enough,
• 38:28
  >> right?
• 38:29
  >> And so we need more, but the technology
• 38:31
  is allowing this to be able to to bridge
• 38:33
  that gap.
• 38:34
  >> The number of BC donors went down last
• 38:36
  year. Lots of reasons, but one is that
• 38:38
  we uh are better at treating drug
• 38:40
  overdoses. Yeah, it's a good thing,
• 38:42
  right? That's right. Yeah. So, deceased
• 38:44
  donors have gone down, but organs have
• 38:46
  not because we're able to get more
• 38:49
  organs.
• 38:49
  >> Oh, no. Can
• 38:50
  >> Okay.
• 38:51
  >> Open the doors for more potential.
• 38:53
  >> So, the technology is really evolving a
• 38:55
  way that that
• 38:56
  >> Okay. It makes it so it works. Yeah.
• 38:59
  >> We now have a system and we're the only
• 39:01
  or human organization has one now where
• 39:03
  we peruse lungs so we can keep them
• 39:06
  longer. We then look at them and if
• 39:08
  they're not quite ready for transplant,
• 39:10
  they would be not transplantable before,
• 39:13
  we can take them to the Indiana Donor
• 39:15
  Network. We put them on a machine for
• 39:16
  three, four, five hours and then we can
• 39:18
  get them accepted and transplanted
• 39:20
  someplace else.
• 39:21
  >> No kidding.
• 39:21
  >> Yeah. So that's an amazing technology to
• 39:23
  watch.
• 39:24
  >> Wow. I that's just I mean just to think
• 39:26
  about when you when you started your
• 39:28
  career and the some of the things you're
• 39:30
  doing now just the evolution
• 39:32
  >> is amazing. It absolutely is. Yes.
• 39:34
  >> And so Wow. That's so cool to think
• 39:36
  about how tech is moving and what it's
• 39:38
  doing to allow you guys to support more
• 39:40
  families. So, next thing we talk about
• 39:42
  is a little bit about community.
• 39:44
  [clears throat] Obviously, we know you
• 39:45
  ser you're serving the community, you're
• 39:46
  serving the families,
• 39:48
  >> you know, your organization, the culture
• 39:49
  at Indiana Donor Network, but I seem to
• 39:51
  remember there was
• 39:53
  >> uh bicycle right
• 39:55
  >> for that I have to do. Yeah. So, so
• 39:57
  there there's some a nonprofit maybe or
• 39:59
  something you like to support. Is there
• 40:00
  there's there's a couple thing you know
• 40:02
  when COVID hit I was stuck in my
• 40:04
  basement. when I was working precinius
• 40:06
  at the time. So I need to get some
• 40:08
  exercise. That was clear. And uh so I
• 40:11
  got a stationary bicycle. Yeah, that's
• 40:13
  one of one of the big programs. I rode
• 40:15
  that and I'm pretty good at it for about
• 40:16
  three months and was enjoying it. I
• 40:18
  said, "Well, if I can ride a bicycle,
• 40:19
  one wheel, I should be able to ride one
• 40:21
  with two that rides again." And it's
• 40:23
  been mind you 40, 50 years since I rode
• 40:25
  a bicycle with any real resentment.
• 40:28
  And uh so I bought a bicycle and I
• 40:31
  enjoyed it. I just kept riding and
• 40:32
  riding and uh eventually bought another
• 40:35
  bicycle because you can't have two of
• 40:36
  course. So, right. Uh but I find what I
• 40:39
  want to do is besides just the daily get
• 40:42
  out and ride type stuff is is to support
• 40:44
  organizations that need it. So, I'll
• 40:46
  look for for charities that have bike
• 40:50
  rides and I'll write with them. So, in
• 40:53
  town IU Momentum does something and they
• 40:56
  have a little bit of a charity that I
• 40:57
  tend to write in July. Uh in June I tend
• 41:01
  to ride with uh the Grand Rapids,
• 41:03
  Michigan where my youngest is in her
• 41:05
  island and I'll I'll ride a 80 mile bike
• 41:08
  ride with them for the Mary Bird Free
• 41:10
  Hospital which does uh
• 41:13
  and uh and develops the for the amput so
• 41:18
  they can do sports, they can do walking,
• 41:20
  you know, surely how to do it. So it's
• 41:22
  economical. So that's a great charity.
• 41:25
  So I'll donate to that as well. And then
• 41:26
  I I had been doing um Pen Mass Challenge
• 41:30
  which is in Massachusetts. I used to go
• 41:33
  from Sturbridge all the way up Province
• 41:35
  Town. So over two days about 185 miles.
• 41:38
  >> Oh my god.
• 41:39
  >> They have hills in Massachusett. It's
• 41:41
  not like here. No, they do. Yeah.
• 41:44
  >> So So it's the most they go up and down.
• 41:46
  Uh and I did that for about four years
• 41:48
  and no car is close to $20,000 for them.
• 41:51
  Um but they're the world's largest
• 41:53
  organization for charitable sports
• 41:55
  events. So it it's actually very good.
• 41:57
  Met goes to uh uh Dana Farberware cat
• 42:01
  center out Massachusetts. So it goes to
• 42:04
  good cancer research. This year I'm
• 42:06
  going to change it a little bit because
• 42:07
  my daughter my daughter was just
• 42:08
  diagnosed multiple scerosis about a year
• 42:11
  ago. That's nine months ago and they do
• 42:15
  what's called Jack and back in in uh
• 42:17
  Kentucky in September.
• 42:19
  >> Okay.
• 42:19
  >> So it's 75 miles to the Jack Daniels
• 42:21
  facility and then 75 miles back the next
• 42:24
  day. Oh. Okay. We'll see how that goes.
• 42:26
  >> Okay. All right. I'm told Vanville, too.
• 42:28
  >> Well, I'm told that, you know, that's a
• 42:30
  lot of mileage, but it it's a lot of fun
• 42:32
  to be able to support th those
• 42:34
  communities as well.
• 42:35
  >> And it ties in giving with something
• 42:38
  good for you and actually enjoyable.
• 42:40
  >> Yeah. Something you enjoy in the giving.
• 42:42
  And you can hear that all through your
• 42:43
  career. It it's it's always interesting
• 42:46
  when I get a chance to talk to people
• 42:47
  there. There are some who knew pretty
• 42:51
  early, you know, what they really wanted
• 42:53
  to do. others had no idea. Right. Right.
• 42:56
  And and it's just your story going back
• 42:58
  to the beginning and wanting to be a
• 43:00
  doctor and kind of seeing how people
• 43:02
  helped, you know, your mother with lupus
• 43:04
  and and those types of things. And to
• 43:06
  see your career progression, it's just
• 43:08
  it's it's excellent. And it's always
• 43:10
  amazing how things happen to where you
• 43:13
  know the right thing comes at the right
• 43:15
  time and the right person and all of
• 43:17
  those happen. and an Indiana donor
• 43:19
  network happens to be that place for you
• 43:20
  and it's terrific the work that you guys
• 43:22
  are doing that those folks mission is
• 43:25
  good the vision is good the people there
• 43:27
  are wonderful to work with uh and we
• 43:29
  understand what we're doing and the
• 43:30
  importance of it
• 43:31
  >> absolutely and it's just you you go to
• 43:34
  work every day and you enjoy it
• 43:36
  >> yeah so before we close out let's talk
• 43:38
  about what's fun right we talked a
• 43:40
  little bit about family so we know we
• 43:41
  know you're uh you're married um how
• 43:44
  many kiddos I have four children that's
• 43:46
  right and and remind me are are they
• 43:48
  here where they there none of them
• 43:49
  they're all good I was either a really
• 43:52
  good father that gave them the ability
• 43:54
  to take care of themselves and
• 43:55
  self-esteem to move on or I was a
• 43:58
  terrible father to get the hell out real
• 43:59
  quick
• 44:01
  the first so my my oldest is in the
• 44:04
  Vegas area
• 44:06
  the next one's in the Atlanta area and
• 44:08
  coming
• 44:08
  >> okay
• 44:09
  >> and the third one is in Scottsdale
• 44:12
  >> okay
• 44:12
  >> fourth one is the closest that she's in
• 44:14
  Grand Rapids
• 44:15
  >> oh my gosh so four of them all around
• 44:17
  And uh any grandkids yet?
• 44:19
  >> I have five.
• 44:20
  >> Five grandkids. That's awesome. So good
• 44:22
  for you. So So what's fun if you're not
• 44:24
  working? I was the Indiana Donor
• 44:25
  Network. If you're not working, what are
• 44:26
  you guys doing for fun?
• 44:28
  >> Well, we're kind of pulling people. I
• 44:29
  love riding my bike. So I I'll that's
• 44:32
  obviously fun. My wife is in community
• 44:34
  theater.
• 44:35
  >> Okay.
• 44:35
  >> So watching her act is is she's
• 44:38
  unbelievably fun. Uh so uh we we support
• 44:41
  community theater as she does props and
• 44:43
  things that I don't care about props but
• 44:45
  when she's acting full to watch I love
• 44:48
  going to the so and we go to that as
• 44:51
  well.
• 44:52
  >> Yeah. Um
• 44:53
  >> and visiting the grandkids is just the
• 44:56
  best. Yeah that's the best. Right. All
• 44:57
  right. Well Michael thank you. I I it's
• 45:00
  been fun to learn their journey to to
• 45:02
  listen to how you've progressed through
• 45:04
  your career and for me personally it was
• 45:06
  great to learn more about in the outdoor
• 45:08
  network and all those things you guys
• 45:10
  are doing and one one thing I you know
• 45:12
  as as your listeners and watch your
• 45:15
  viewers think about this think about
• 45:17
  transplantation a donation because
• 45:19
  that's so important. Yeah.
• 45:20
  >> If you have questions call us you can
• 45:22
  sign up the BMV you can sign up but it
• 45:26
  >> that's where I was going to go right. So
• 45:28
  the if you think about how people can
• 45:31
  get involved, right? I'm a donor. My
• 45:33
  wife's a nurse, right? I believe it was
• 45:35
  when I went to get my license and those
• 45:37
  types of things.
• 45:38
  >> But my assumption is much like me, most
• 45:41
  people don't know what how those types
• 45:44
  get involved.
• 45:45
  >> So maybe if you could go through that
• 45:46
  again, just where people what could
• 45:48
  where could they find you? What would
• 45:50
  they do if they have questions? And
• 45:52
  maybe what are some of those options
• 45:53
  they could do to get involved with Well,
• 45:55
  they they can always call us at the end
• 45:56
  of their owner network and we'll back to
• 45:58
  them and that's a good way to do it. Uh
• 46:00
  you can search for things online, but
• 46:02
  you know it it's difficult sometimes to
• 46:04
  get through it all, but we have a very
• 46:06
  nice website. So, okay. And Indiana
• 46:08
  network website's very good actually and
• 46:10
  reads well
• 46:11
  >> and it'll tell you what we did last year
• 46:13
  and where we're going and talk about
• 46:14
  technology and our ambulances and our
• 46:16
  airplanes and all the fun things that we
• 46:18
  have. Yeah.
• 46:19
  >> Um,
• 46:20
  >> so you've got that baseline and but
• 46:23
  understanding why you want to give,
• 46:25
  >> right?
• 46:26
  >> And that you want to give is important.
• 46:28
  Yeah. But the next step is very
• 46:30
  important is what you tell your family.
• 46:32
  >> Oh yeah.
• 46:33
  >> Spouse, your kids, your parents,
• 46:35
  whatever. Yeah.
• 46:36
  >> Because they're the ones when
• 46:38
  >> you can't say what you really want.
• 46:40
  Yeah. They have to deal with it. So yes,
• 46:42
  >> but if you haven't told them
• 46:44
  >> that you would like to be a donor, they
• 46:46
  will sometimes we have to come to grips
• 46:48
  with that, right? And try to figure out
• 46:50
  what it's much better to know that than
• 46:52
  advance. Only about.3% of the people
• 46:54
  that die can be donors. It's not
• 46:56
  everybody that can be a donor. You you
• 46:58
  have to die
• 46:59
  >> on a ventilator and you have to have
• 47:02
  unfortunately put it's usually a
• 47:03
  catastrophic illness that gets you
• 47:05
  there. So it it is very hard on the
• 47:08
  family. These these aren't people that
• 47:10
  are
• 47:10
  >> have slow chronic illnesses in general.
• 47:13
  Something just horrible happened.
• 47:14
  >> Yep.
• 47:15
  >> Uh and so there's a lot of emotions, a
• 47:18
  lot of thoughts to go through. So you
• 47:20
  owe it to your family y to say, "Look,
• 47:23
  I've signed up. I've signed up every
• 47:25
  every time I got my license since I was
• 47:26
  18." Right.
• 47:27
  >> Yum. I think that's what it started. But
• 47:30
  uh so it's important that your family
• 47:33
  knows that so they can support you in
• 47:34
  that decision
• 47:36
  because yeah I mean it's just it's very
• 47:38
  important.
• 47:39
  >> It is and I communication is key right
• 47:41
  making sure your family knows and if
• 47:43
  you've got questions obviously reach out
• 47:44
  to you guys at Indiana Donor Network and
• 47:47
  I appreciate you sharing your story with
• 47:49
  us. Appreciate the bear it'll say it'll
• 47:52
  set up on there and it'll be in the
• 47:53
  podcast as we go forward and so folks if
• 47:55
  they ask about that I'll be able to
• 47:56
  share the story. Appreciate you. Thank
• 47:58
  you.
• 47:58
  >> Thank you. Appreciate it.
• 48:00
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• 48:02
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