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The Oscars and Fantasy Movies · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to Mythbakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creators
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  brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding, I'm an
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  author and screenwriter and I also run the centre and I'm joined today with my frequent
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  podcast partner Jacob Renica, who's based over in Seattle. He works in the game making industry
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  as in board games, Ravens Berger, but he is also an expert on all things Tolkien.
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  So Jacob, we are in the Oscar season and I was thinking about the relationship between
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  awards and fantasy films because it's often said that fantasy is one of those genres which is
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  not rewarded by those who hand out on the Oscars. Do you think this bears out when you actually
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  look at the list of films that have been winners? Do you think that thesis is correct?
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  Yeah, I think so and it's the purpose that the question is who's doing the voting, what's their
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  expectations when watching a film and as a very specific and certainly the slant is toward films that
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  are more serious that are tackling big questions and especially that have actors that are tortured
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  in some way, some variety of ways, right? Those are the ones that they're looking for like the type
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  of performances that they get. So yeah, so I think it bears out in some sense as a closer that
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  fantasy and fantasy adjacent films get to touching on serious and meaningful subject matter
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  and actors who have some sort of sense of torturedness in their role.
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  That's where we get some of the fantasy films, directing, acting, happening.
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  Usually it's different, right? The directing and visuals, that's kind of like a separate one,
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  but we're talking about like major films like Best Picture. Yeah, I'm best actors.
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  Yeah, I think we should restrict ourselves to talking about the acting awards and the best picture
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  awards because when you actually dig down, obviously, we don't even need to talk about special effects
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  very often, they sweep the balls. And also, I was checking through the animated feature films.
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  Of course, most cartoons are just because you can draw or things, but actually purely fantasy,
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  things like spirited away, wonderful films are one, the Oscar for Best animated feature.
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  Just go and check, there's what's a wonderful Disney product, you know, just really good film.
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  So let's put those to one side. What is lacking in the Best Picture winners? And I was thinking
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  this because I went and had a look in the foyer of the Dolby Theatre back in January and they've
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  list the Best Picture for each year. There is no smash hit there for the fact that there's no Marvel
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  film, for example. And there is a strange choice of those which I would say for slightly
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  uneasily under fantasy films with one exception. So the shape of water, if you remember that
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  rather odd film, that is obviously a fantasy of sorts, but it's very offbeat, very weird.
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  Third man, that's a mixture of fantasy imagination and sort of, but you could say it's within the
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  world of the actor who's in it. That's what I'm saying, it doesn't fit quite. Last year's winner,
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  everything everywhere, all at once, is a kind of sci-fi high concept.
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  But yeah, I suppose you could say that's fantasy. A border on fantasy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  So maybe when they do have that element in them, it doesn't stop them winning,
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  but with the only absolute mainstream total, yes, that's a fantasy film is obviously
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  Return of the King, which won the Oscar in 2004, I think it was. And yeah, everybody agrees that's
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  a fantasy film, whereas the others you might describe more as a hybrid of other sorts of genres.
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  But to the performances, and there you really do come up against a problem of them not rewarding
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  performances in a fantasy film. Right, yeah, yeah. And that's yeah, that's to be expected.
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  And with these, I think you're right on with the blending of genres, makes it more palatable,
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  but if it's heavily, it's a genre piece that's heavy fantasy or sci-fi, or even to be fair,
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  like you said, you know, like an action film. If it's kind of a big budget blockbuster action-filled
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  comedies, westerns even, what westerns more so because I think they can get to more of that
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  serious slash, you know, meaningful and tortured performances. But a lot of those kind of like a
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  big budget, mass audience films, those aren't the ones that are being considered here rewarded.
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  So for the actors, it's the same thing. So it's really interesting what the actors
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  in this most recent Oscar round coming up in Barbie, which is a fantasy film,
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  has nominations for best picture and two supporting actors in adapted screenplay, but not for
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  best director or best actor. So Margot Robbie is not even getting a nomination, even though the film
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  is nominated and the supporting actors is really fascinating looking at those, the supporting actors
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  right, Ryan Gosling and Marika Ferreira as kind of like more tortured. Yes, it is Barbie story,
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  but if you look at what characters themselves are having to wrestle with more intensively and
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  that's what they're in, in that degree of supporting actor, not in the primary actor, it's really
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  interesting on how Margot Robbie and the main character for the film would not be nominated,
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  but it's the same film and the same storyline, but the two supporting actors from that fantasy film
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  are nominated. So there's really interesting, I think that's a good demonstration of what is
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  because like Margot Robbie's character is Barbie, most of the way through, right, it's kind of her
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  performance is fairly even and level, whereas the other two are characters that are kind of like
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  yanked from their world and you see them wrestling, at least it's more intensively because I think
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  perhaps less screen time on them, you can see the wrestle a little bit more, it's kind of intense
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  that over the entire film, but yeah, I bet it's a song. Yeah, right, exactly, exactly, the song
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  doesn't matter, but yeah, so the individuals and performances, yeah, so we have like with Lord
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  of the Rings in particular, with as many Academy Awards as it did receive, including your best
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  picture, best director, best screenplay for Margot Robbie King, the only actor nomination or
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  award that you got was for Ian McKellen, just from Fellowship of the Ring, was the only one that
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  was won there. So it's interesting looking at, yeah, the different characters there and there's,
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  yeah, it's, it's hard to say, but that's just an interesting trend. So did Ian McKellen,
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  sorry, did he win something for it? Or was he just nominated? I don't, I thought they was,
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  I didn't think any of them got an acting award. He didn't, he didn't get an award, but it was
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  that it was a nomination. So he was the only one that was nominated, didn't win, but that was
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  even the only nomination across all three films was just Ian McKellen for the, for Fellowship of the
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  Ring. Oh, I've forgotten that. I'm just looking through the list of people, the men who won the
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  acting role. I need to pull up the women because I'm having them back in my mind that maybe Michelle
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  you won one for everything everywhere all at once. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a woman winning a main
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  if we allow that to be a fantasy. Of course, you're like him Phoenix one for being a walking
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  Phoenix. And that's exactly what he said, that it's the tortured. Yeah. And the only, and I'd say
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  like even for like doing like a big budget or even yeah, big budget, Joker versus Dark Knight.
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  So you have two, the only, I would say you're like the two best actor roles in a fantasy type
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  or a fantasy edition film. You have Pete Ledger for the Joker and walking Phoenix for the Joker,
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  both of which performances are these again, like tortured individuals that are vacillating between
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  two different worlds. And so, but it's really interesting that it's the same character
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  that is winning both of those roles. Even though it's different franchises, it's within the same
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  story world of Batman, but that's where you get these Batman is never nominated for or isn't
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  does never get this award for and only can think nominated for best actor. Whereas the villain,
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  the more kind of emotionally complicated and tortured to keep going back to that word, but yeah,
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  so that's that's kind of a anomaly in the best actor wins. Yeah, because I was thinking that
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  Harry Potter was didn't didn't get in the running for any of these. And I was just thinking about
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  the performances, particularly in the later films and in the very last one, which in a way is a war
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  movie. And I do think that Daniel Radcliffe actually acts incredibly well. And we need to turn out
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  to be such a smashing actor. He learned in front of us all, didn't he? And I think that when he
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  actually goes at the end to offer up his life in a way is incredibly moving and is like some kind
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  of war film sacrifice, but nobody ever said, oh, well, maybe Daniel, after having done
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  seven, how many films was it seven or eight films? Maybe he should be given a nomination at least.
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  Nobody, I don't remember that being. Oh, because he's a wizard. Harry. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
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  There's somehow you're in a different role. Yeah. And it's great. You know,
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  snake being the source. Yeah. Yeah. That one's one I think would come probably closest to actually
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  happening because of everyone not being halibutman and thinking he just Alan Rickman for right.
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  So if you look it and then I think to just emphasize this point, even more looking at James Cameron
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  films, right? So James Cameron recognized as, you know, one of the influential filmmakers of the
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  past, you know, three decades. You have for Titanic, he does a show on, you know, a film about a
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  historical event, period piece, wins 11, you know, 11 Oscars for Titanic. But and including
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  two best and best and best actor for that film. But for the his other films, right? For the,
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  you know, alien, the abyss, Terminator Avatar, you only get one acting nomination that's for
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  Sigourney Weaver. And there, but it's just even though these films are recognized as being ground
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  breaking and important and significant visually. And then directed the actors in those films that
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  received said praise were not nom and were not even nominated with the exception of Sigourney Weaver
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  there. So you there is definitely a, I would say, I guess bias is an okay word to use, but it's
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  just the sensibility of what they're looking for. I don't know if it's the visual, if they're then
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  if it's put, the film is put into this visual medium rather than the acting medium. But there are
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  those that break through and cross over what we just mentioned with the walking Phoenix and
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  Heath Ledger for Joker, even though those were, but again, both of those films weren't high
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  fantasy. Those were very grounded approaches to the superhero genre. They're very, very grounded
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  with, I don't even think with, especially with Joker, that one being kind of devoid of any sort
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  of technology, any sort of kind of superheroism, it was just kind of more of a character study,
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  whereas the Heath Ledger was set within, clearly, superhero genre, but it was a grounded
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  Christopher Nolan's very grounded approach to storytelling and the superhero genre,
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  as opposed to Marvel films, which is a different beast entirely.
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  Yeah, I mean, looking, I, we obviously need to look at other wards to, I'm looking at the Oscars
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  here, but looking at the acting nods go very, very often, more often than not, it's for somebody
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  who's playing somebody from real life. So you can tell how good they are at being that person. So
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  Brendan Fraser was playing that guy, the, you know, the one with the white issue. Will Smithy,
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  before that was the tennis coach, King Richard, I think it is, isn't it? That one.
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  Rami Malek, Bohemian Rhapsody, obviously, Eddie Mercury, Gary Oldman,
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  Darkest Hour, that's Winston Churchill, Eddie Redmayne, that's Stephen Hawking, I can go on,
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  Lincoln, Daniel Day Lewis, Colin Firth, playing the King, and so on. So it does seem as though
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  that's an easier, it's very hard to judge, fantasy performances when you don't know what they're
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  based on. Maybe that's part of it that we can tell that our fellow actors have done a really
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  good job because we know what they're trying to get at. Maybe it's just easier. You feel more
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  secure in saying, oh, let's vote for Colin Firth, then let's vote for a wizard, you know. I don't
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  know, that might be part of it. But anyway, let's be different from the sort of general Oscar lineup.
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  And let's think about which fantasy performances that have been neglected, would we nominate?
• 15:24
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  You can go back as far as you like, but who are the ones who actually when you think about it in
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  the long view which we now have, you think actually that really deserved a nod at the time and
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  nobody nates us. Didn't get it. Yeah, that's a good question. So I think going going part of the far
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  of the spark would be seventh seal. Okay, right. Right. So in the night. Five, seven, right. So yeah. So
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  so that's one. So this incredibly filmed this, you know, this incredibly acted and it didn't get
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  any at the time, no Oscar nominations whatsoever. So that's one that's kind of people have returned
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  to time and again for being incredibly influential piece of cinematography and you know,
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  storytelling and acting. So that's one going way, way back. I know we didn't have acting
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  nominations from Wizard of Oz, Judy Garland or anyone else supporting there, right? So that's
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  one that you didn't have anything there. I am, I am happy that we're on the same time, you know,
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  about two terrible long white Mary Poppins, Julie Anders, one best actress for that. So we did have
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  a female enough fantasy film leading there in 64. But yeah, yeah. So those are some of the older
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  generations. What's kind of coming up more recently in terms of the film and acting.
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  Well, I need to I need to stick one in before we get too much. Yeah. I think actually in retrospect,
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  Harrison Ford in the very first Star Wars as a best supporting actor because he totally
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  revolution, you know, the that he grounded that film. Everybody else is playing, you know,
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  heroic roles with great, great stakes and being all very noble and he's the there as the hustler,
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  the guy who's kind of made it feel real. Because you could understand his motives,
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  he wasn't being powered until, of course, he could come through, you know, that's his arc,
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  his arc is very pleasing. So there's all sorts of things about that performance, which I think
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  really set up the whole Star Wars thing right from the start. So I'd give him a best supporting
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  actor nods if not the prize got anywhere else was around that year, but
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  have been recognized. And you do have Alan Guinness as Ben Kenobi, as we want Kenobi is there,
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  that who actually gets a nomination for support best supporting actor for Star Wars.
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  Oh, does he? Yeah. So you get that nomination there. So then you're so in again,
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  that part, so that that character, right? So like Consolo is being kind of like a archetypal
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  character that brought so much to that role and pivot all of that role, I think being a successful
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  and appealing, just many people did, but Obi-Wan Kenobi, again, this character who's torn between
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  trying to be, you know, a hermit, you know, a hermit, removing himself from the larger stage of
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  intergalactic interplanetary conflict. We then it's forced to come out of that and then ultimately
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  sacrifices his own life. So that that that range of performance and, you know, the caliber of actor
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  that he was. And yeah, he had talks in he. Yeah, right. So so he's doing he's approaching that
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  film with those sensibilities and not seeing it as necessary like a genre piece, but that he's
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  bringing the gravitas of a Shakespearean actor, which is what Ian McKellen did for a gandal,
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  yeah, and Patrick Stewart has that for the ones who's in as well. Exactly, exactly. So I think that's
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  a yeah, so so they're so I think so I'm glad that justice was done to at least Obi-Wan Kenobi,
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  but I would like to say thank you for because I hadn't remembered that. So okay, let's go a bit more
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  up to date. I mean, the world wasn't ready for it, but in retrospect, Gollum, Andy Slash, Andy
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  Circus should have got best supporting actor. Absolutely. Absolutely. Return as the king or
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  two towns. I don't know. I'm not fast to which one they pick, probably two towns actually,
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  because it's more more screen time. And wouldn't it have been fun to see Andy Circus go up with the
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  like leader animator. And the award in the voice of Gollum, I mean, it just should have happened.
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  Right. Yeah, or the tuxedo with little dots on it. Motion capture dots on the tuxedo itself.
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  Yeah. No, that would that I think yeah, absolutely. And that's one that I think now there's more
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  openness to that actually being considered acting. And that's what if you read the book that we
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  actually referenced in another episode on New Zealand, there's a book that the anything you can
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  imagine Peter Jackson making a middle-earth by Ian Nathan talks about that and the complexities of
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  dealing with an actor being seen from the academy and people evaluating, is this a cartoon? How
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  are you evaluating this? Because it's not the person themselves on screen, but it's a motion
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  capture of the person. So there's a whole kind of unexplored area between what is a performance,
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  what's considered and eligible to be considered for an award in a performance. So I absolutely
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  agreed there. I would highlight just a little bit before that, I'm say Groundhog Day with Bill Murray
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  1993. So this is a fantasy film, a timely one of the first like yeah, fantastic though. Yeah,
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  right. And he is an actor beginning because of the comedy kind of a situational high concept,
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  situational comedy, the high concept might fly, but because it's a comedy that almost like removes
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  the consideration because it's comedic, but the arc that he goes through in that film
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  as a character and the, you know, kind of like the philosophical turn that he makes is fantastic.
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  I appreciate that, but other ones, I think one, again like more recently,
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  a monster calls, did you ever see that one? So 2016, a monster calls, film adaptation of the book.
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  This is how I've been Patrick Ness, collaborating because she wasn't outside.
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  Exactly. Yeah. So that one, that that one is, I saw it in the theater and was actually able to
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  see it kind of as an advanced screening of that one. And because I love the book so much and it's
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  one of the books that I give to people is a monster calls, most frequently that I gift to other
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  people because the combination of the written word and the art that's in there, with Jim Kay,
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  who does the art, who does the art for the illustrated Harry Potter edition.
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  Oh yeah. That come out. So you know, monster calls are just like the powerful interplay between
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  the word and art. But so what they did there, story wise, incredibly moving story, but translating that
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  into film, Patrick Ness did the screenplay for that as well. And so it captures the same sensibilities
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  and as an adaptation into a different medium, he adds something visually and character wise that
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  you don't have in the books that really layered the performance and the story itself and made it
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  kind of a different creature, but like the performances there of Felicity Jones and incredible
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  performance as a, you know, young mother dying of cancer and the the her child is, I can't
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  remember the name of the actor, but he just gave a stunning performance and I don't know what the
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  youngest actor that's been nominated for a one of these awards are, but we have had some, you know,
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  instances or one in the piano, it was very young, wasn't she? Yes, yes, yes, yes, but it's
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  it's a rarity, but you have some and especially now today, child actors are so good,
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  that yes, that's the one that I would like to see, Patrick or Connor O'Malley, the character's name
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  and monster calls the child. He was phenomenal and so see other Felicity Jones or
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  or him and a monster call would be wonderful, well, we're even being considered for best pictures,
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  visual J.E. Boyena, who did, who actually, so he was the director, who also directed the first two
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  episodes of Rings of Pout, so that and like artistic sensibility that he brought to that
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  that cinematically is what's on on display there in a monster call, so yeah. I did not know that
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  connection, so thank you, that taught me something there, so I was wondering, going on your,
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  it has to be a torture performance, I did wonder about the film Logan, because it had Patrick's
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  and yeah, and in it, plus also that young actress, Stephanie, she's got an unusual name,
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  Keen, is that her name? Anyway, she's, so the three of them all give very nuanced proper acting,
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  proper acting performances and I don't, yeah, I think that was one that could have
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  got the nod at some point. Yeah, yeah, with Hugh, Hugh Jackman's performance in that is and even
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  Patrick Stewart for supporting when he's there in the film, both of those, yeah, or again,
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  like that's another one of these superhero genre, but I'll put that in the same class as Joker,
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  yeah, fucking Phoenix, right, that's, that's, that's very grounded and, really, and just more
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  about character study than an emphasis on the fantastical world that these characters are in,
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  it really kind of zeroes in on the character and their internal world and internal journey.
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  So just around this up, I'm going to allow you two picks for films that you think should have
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  been fantasy films from previous eras that should have been in receipt of the best picture
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  for their year, looking at it in retrospect. Yeah, I would necessarily, if I had to,
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  yeah, for that, I would, I didn't think Green Knight most recently a couple of years ago,
• 26:35
  it's another one that was really good. Really? Oh, yeah, the one with the, the Sagaway in
• 26:40
  retelling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that one, the performance there, yeah, um,
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  was a div hotel, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was, that was truly excellent. So if we're looking
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  at, especially I think like, yeah, more recent films and performances, I would have, yeah, I would
• 26:58
  as wild didn't happen and might never happen, but I would, yeah, go with Green Knight,
• 27:06
  depth of talent, Green Knight, and the actor that Connor O'Malley in Monster Calls.
• 27:11
  Yeah. So I'd go a little bit further back. I was thinking of between ET and close encounters
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  that both of those are actually quite artistic films when you actually look at them now.
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  Maybe ET because, um, it also had the popularity thing behind it, but it says some very profound
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  things. And also the performances of the children, again, were wonderful in that. Yes,
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  incredible. I watched it as a child. So I wasn't analysing it then, but looking at it now, it's,
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  it hasn't aged particularly badly at all. It's still got a lot of legs to it, that one.
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  So yeah, that would have pleased me if that had won a best picture.
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  And I think more recently, well, I don't know, they should give,
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  if going back to my Harry Potter point, it'd be quite nice if they gave a well done having made
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  all those films award because they were very influential films. I don't know that all of them,
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  each one was particularly perfect, but perhaps the one that should have won, one was the third one.
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  The Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, because it up the game, the clever use of the time
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  turner, the sensibility of it, the Gary Oldman, he doesn't think his performance that was great,
• 28:27
  but I think it was. And also the children, the young people by that stage were getting into
• 28:34
  their stride as actors. So that was a pretty good film. And the director, yeah, when
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  then that one in particular, it sounds like that's Alfonso Quaron, who directed that one,
• 28:46
  who has gone on to direct a number of other, even Oscar-winning best pictures. So the film maker
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  that they brought on, tonally, it's different, right? Yeah, from Chris Columbus. Yeah, right,
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  from the earlier, from the first two films, it's very tonally very distinct. And you know what he
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  used getting there, but Alfonso Quaron brought a different sensibility to that. And so it is
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  a little, it grants it like in the story, it does kind of move a little bit, you're following the
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  kids and it makes sense where you're starting out with having this director in this kind of tone
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  and field for the film, because they're kids and they're entering into this one world that's
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  slowly becoming complicated, but then now you're really fully moving into more significant
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  plot complications, as well as age-wise these kids are aging up and teenagers that sort of
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  complicated emotions that they're learning to navigate for the first time is I think an excellent
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  pairing of director that has kind of a different vision and the acting of performance system
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  itself. So absolutely agree there. I mean, I kind of also wanted to say Iron Man as well, but
• 29:54
  anyway, I've gone with Harry Potter, why not? But there is an argument to be made for the first
• 30:01
  Iron Man, which I think is a really good film. Anyway, you could go on, couldn't we?
• 30:08
  We better draw a line there. And if you're listening and you think we've missed a really obvious
• 30:13
  thing that we should have said, I mean, I haven't even mentioned the Hunger Games or any of those
• 30:17
  dystopians been off. We ran out of time. Let us know. But in our fantasy tit, Jacob, which of
• 30:26
  these films would you send people scaring off to see if they haven't seen it yet?
• 30:32
  I would, I mean, I talked a lot about a monster calls. I would absolutely recommend that film for
• 30:38
  an effort and especially for this audience, for a fantasy, creatives and fans, that the film itself,
• 30:48
  the visuals are stunning. You have different Liam Meeson does the voice of the monster.
• 30:56
  And so I'm a big fan of Liam Meeson's voice. If you like the Aslands voice in
• 31:01
  Narnia films, it's the same voice. If you like Jedi Masters, it's the same voice. But just like so,
• 31:08
  the CGI is great. So just like the sensibles are brought there. But then you also have,
• 31:14
  it's a story about telling stories and the stories we tell ourselves and how stories,
• 31:17
  unexpected, how stories might not be what they seem and how they can help pull us through
• 31:24
  difficult times. And so they have within the film, there's a few short animated sequences.
• 31:31
  The premise of the story is the monster comes to this child who's struggling with a parent
• 31:36
  who has cancer and he tells him three stories. And these three stories, powerful names of
• 31:43
  themselves and interesting and playing with expectations. But in the film adaptation,
• 31:50
  these stories are presented as animated sequences that have these beautiful, colorful,
• 31:57
  not too dissimilar from the Deathly Hallows animated segment in the theater.
• 32:07
  That's right. So this is a quite shadow puppetry. It's animated, but not like a fully rendered,
• 32:13
  it's kind of softer, kind of impressionist approach to that. But storytelling
• 32:20
  of two different types within the same story about the stories we tell and how they impact us and
• 32:26
  can help us through the most difficult times that we have in our life. That would be my absolute
• 32:32
  recommendation if you haven't seen a monster calls 2016. Do yourself a favor and go see that
• 32:42
  and bring a box of tissues probably with it's not a light popcorn fair. It's definitely one that
• 32:50
  that will do a stick with you. Yeah, so I might go just to sort of contrast with that. I might go
• 32:59
  into like sci-fi because we haven't really spent much time. I know people say
• 33:05
  2001 Space Odyssey is like the most amazing film. I never actually particularly liked that film
• 33:12
  so I'm not going to recommend it. I think you have to watch it if you're a film buff just to say
• 33:17
  you've watched it. But actually I'm sort of torn between two and three. So I'm going Star Trek
• 33:26
  because Star Trek occasionally produces something really, really interesting. So Star Trek first contact
• 33:35
  is one of the Patrick Stewart ones. Has some really interesting questions in it about artificial
• 33:41
  intelligence and the nature of feeling and the nature of being human is well acted. A lot of
• 33:52
  Patrick Stewart who I think is a great actor but a great supporting cast. So that's my favorite
• 33:58
  of the Star Trek films until the reboot because the other one I was going to say is Star Trek
• 34:03
  one reboot with Chris Pine is great. Just such a good film about how to do interesting science
• 34:12
  fiction keeping the focus on relationships and not spectacle. I kind of get a bit lost
• 34:20
  sometimes in the Star Wars films when they go in for lots of starscapes. I prefer the Star Trek
• 34:28
  relationship emphasis. But it's always got to be when I come down to it, it's always got to be
• 34:34
  Galaxy Quest. Yes, to bring someone back into it. I've said it before I'll keep on saying it
• 34:44
  until the whole world has watched Galaxy Quest and laughed because that is such. It's got Scorney
• 34:49
  Weaver. It's got Alan Bickwin. Oscar nominee. Yeah. It's just such a fabulous well-constructed
• 34:58
  hilarious film and it's the one which I I won't tire rewatching and it is obviously a fantasy film
• 35:06
  but it also has fun of fantasy. It makes fun of fantasy. It's certainly self-aware.
• 35:14
  Yeah, so if ever you want to cheer yourself up and think I fancy something which is
• 35:19
  funny but also fantasy that is a good one to go for. Right, well Jacob thank you very much
• 35:26
  for talking this through with me and good luck to everybody at the Oscars.
• 35:36
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• 35:42
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