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Individualism is Destroying the West | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

• 0:30
  Speaker 1: My name is a germ warfe the battle of ideas.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I'm generally speaking considered to be off the right. My
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: backgrounds in law and linguistics as well. Actually, and I'm
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: an educator. I was more popular. I have a much
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: lower profile today than I did, say, ten years ago.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: What was between seven and ten years ago. You may
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: remember at that time, especially in American politics, this was
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the tail end of let's say, the libertarian moment. You know,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: when a lot of Americans, you know, young Republican voters
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: becoming more interested in figures like Ron Paul let's say,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of youngsters moving towards libertarianism. Also, this was
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: a time especially after Trump, especially as you know, Trump
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: had drawn a lot of that crowd, let's say, towards
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: nationalism of some variety. There was the old right at
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: the time, so this is you know, the the dissident right.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I think people call it more these days, you.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: Know, I remember that, and also and the New right.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, oh yeah, that's true. Yeah yeah. The New
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: rights today kind of more refers to let's say the
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: French kind of right. You know, that's more a continental thing.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: But you know, at the time, there was you know,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the old Right. I mean that kind of split with
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: the old Light they call it. So this was a
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  Speaker 2: kind of maybe more ethno nationalistic, civic nationalistic split that
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  Speaker 2: was going on there. And so I wrote a book
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  Speaker 2: called The Uniqueness of Western Law at that time, and
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  Speaker 2: my aim was more to yes, to get libertarians to
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  Speaker 2: start to reflect more on, you know, why nationalism is important.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: What is it actually hitting at? What's libertarianism and you know,
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  Speaker 2: civic nationalism maybe more portantly, what's that missing? What's that
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  Speaker 2: missing out on? What's it ignoring from Western history, let's say.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: And also where you had, you know, growing paganism, and
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: you had a lot of anti Christians sentiment emerging in
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: the dissident right circles. I also wanted to promote that,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to say no actually to dismiss
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  Speaker 2: Christianity or Catholicism as being a sort of alien interjection
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  Speaker 2: to Western history. That's a complete mis characterization. And you
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: really can't understand Europe, you can't understand Western civilization without
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: seeing this necessary flow. You Knowlicism was in a certain
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: sense a perfection of you know, the Roman project. That
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: was my aim anyway, So I wrote that book, and
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I've written here and there certainly people who
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: were interested in politics at that time and who were
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: interested in maybe more right wing politics since that time.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: You've probably read something I've written. You may not have
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: seen my name, or it might not have been my name,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: but you probably read something that I've written anyway. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: So broadly speaking, that's who I am. I'm a Catholic,
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  Speaker 2: and I always end up tangling with usually actually it's
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  Speaker 2: Pagans on the right. I don't know how or why.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: That was never my intention, but I always end up
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: in the middle of debates there. And at the moment
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: I'm working on two books. One is this debate I've
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: been having with someone who I won't mention at the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: moment about it. Is liberalism actually a resurgence of gnosticism.
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  Speaker 2: Is it like a kind of heresy in a certain
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  Speaker 2: sense from the Western canna, you know, Western tradition. Is
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  Speaker 2: there a spiritual element? I think is what we're really
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: getting at, you know, with liberalism modern liberalism. And the
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  Speaker 2: other book I'm writing about is about civilizational life cycles,
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  Speaker 2: which I think is you know, an area of interest
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  Speaker 2: for you as well, which I'm smiling because I don't
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: get to have those conversations very often, and it's it's
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  Speaker 2: probably my favorite topic. So I think that's really cool,
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, I am coming at it from a Catholic
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  Speaker 2: point of view. I think if you're looking at civilizational
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  Speaker 2: life cycles, you can't ignore religion. You can't ignore the
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  Speaker 2: centrality of religion to human civilization, which is something that
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  Speaker 2: some of the greatest minds, most influential thinkers in linguistics, anthropology, biology,
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  Speaker 2: they're signs to converge on that same truth. I won't
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: say theory, it's unavoidable. So yeah, that's the other book
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  Speaker 2: that I'm working on. Sorry, that was a really long introduction, but.
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  Speaker 1: It's absolutely perfect. You actually cover quite a lot of
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  Speaker 1: territory this, so I'm going to unpack some of that.
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  Speaker 1: I had e Michael Jones on my podcast maybe about
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a week ago, and he's a Catholic too, and I
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: said to him that I'm not a Catholic, but I
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: find myself nodding at just about everything he says. And
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I find myself nodding in just about everything you say,
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  Speaker 1: and I find that interesting. Do you think that's because
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: you are a Catholic that you have those views, or
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  Speaker 1: is in addition to m M.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very good question, very interesting question. I
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  Speaker 2: think it is because Catholicism really tries to integrate so
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  Speaker 2: much of the natural world, and specifically I'm talking about
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: natural law, the natural order, and one of the greatest
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: what can I say, I wanted to use the word advantages,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: you know, because I'm thinking about, you know, if you're
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: as a Catholic trying to proselytize other people. One of
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: the one of the best traits of Catholicism is that
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  Speaker 2: it has it has the greatest system of apologia, you know,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: apologetics of defending itself, of any religion. And the reason
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: for that is because it's so deeply integrated with this
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: let's say Western but you know, I'm talking about its
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: origins in Greece and Rome. This this tradition of rationalism,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: you know, discovering the truths about the world, and so
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: you know, Catholicism really ran with that, and so you know,
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  Speaker 2: the tradition that we have is so rich in terms
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: of the contributions to law, systematizing law especially, but also
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  Speaker 2: in furthering philosophy, you know, furthering Platonic philosophy, and of course,
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  Speaker 2: you know, at one time in our history is we're
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: going back a long way now. But you know, there
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  Speaker 2: was such strong debate between Platonists, Gnostics, and Catholicism, and
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  Speaker 2: Catholicism won out one the day. So and you know,
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  Speaker 2: this is before I even go on to mention that
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  Speaker 2: it's it's primarily Catholics who founded the modern sciences and
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: so many of the faculties that we you know, associate
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  Speaker 2: with academic study today. So you know, one of the
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  Speaker 2: so the reason you're nodding basically is because we're we're
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  Speaker 2: taking so very seriously this this art of trying to
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  Speaker 2: discover the truth, and to do so sincerely, not selfishly,
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  Speaker 2: not with any cynicism, but in order to be obedient
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  Speaker 2: to it. And that the heart is that like the
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: driving principle behind it is charity. So something else you're
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: probably picking up on there is that it's well meaning
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  Speaker 2: that we're trying to discern this truth not for selfish reasons,
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  Speaker 2: but for the common good as well. So there's love
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  Speaker 2: there as well. So you know, without saying anything else
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  Speaker 2: or like you know, trying to like you know, spiritually
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  Speaker 2: oblige you or anything, you know, I think that's probably
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: what you're picking up on there. You know, that's why
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  Speaker 2: you are agreeing with so much.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: So part of your introduction was Western civilization Rome. Now
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: you write a lot about that, and I'm going to
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: come back to them in a second, but I just
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  Speaker 1: want to clarify some terms. When you talk about the
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: West or Western civilization, what are you talking about?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it comes from Greece, I think. But when we
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  Speaker 2: say that, we're missing out on so much because I
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  Speaker 2: think when we're talking about the European spirit, the European mind,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: and what makes that unique, it's something much deeper than
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: to say, oh, it started with Greek philosophy. You kind
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: of almost say, okay, and where did Greek philosophy come from?
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: And why? Now? The namesake of my book, the reason
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I called it the Uniqueness of Western Law, was because
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I was so very influenced by Ricardo du Chen, who
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: was a professor at Oh I've completely forgotten the name
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: of the university in Canada. He was a professor. Oh,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: that's really annoying. He'll be disappointed with me. But he
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: was kind enough to write the afterword for my book. Actually,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: so you know, I developed a friendship with him, thankfully.
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  Speaker 2: His theory is that Indo European nomads. So at one time,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: you know, it's a bit naughty to use this word now,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: but you know, Germans would have referred to them as arians,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: you know, so that automatically is like shock hood.
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  Speaker 3: We can't say that these days.
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  Speaker 2: No, no, I don't know if it's going to be
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: on YouTube, maybe we can't even say that there. But
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  Speaker 2: basically what we're talking about is no mads from somewhere
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: around the Black Sea, without going into all of that,
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  Speaker 2: and they came into Europe. In northern Europe, they basically
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: just eradicated everyone and replaced them because it's cold and
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: they're nomads and they have cattle, and they show up
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and some other guys have just got some animals, and
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: so they just kill them and take their animals. In
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  Speaker 2: the south of Europe, they kind of formed a symbiosis
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  Speaker 2: that kind of became this because they're nomads and they
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: move around, they became a kind of aristocratic protective force
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  Speaker 2: over the peasant the settlers, the group who we would
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: have called old Europeans, that's like a technical term for them.
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  Speaker 2: So this is kind of why you see there is
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  Speaker 2: a bit of a genetic split between the North of Europe.
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  Speaker 2: You know, you see guys, you know, germano Celtic kind
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  Speaker 2: of people. You know, we look a bit fairer, and
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: the South of Europe, you know, you do have that.
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  Speaker 2: You know, like between forty to sixty percent of their
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  Speaker 2: genes are these guys, these Indo European nomad guys, and
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  Speaker 2: the rest is the old Europeans. And nevertheless, you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Europeans are kind of all cousins and you know, I
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  Speaker 2: think half of all Europeans are descended from just one
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  Speaker 2: Indo European guy, so you know, basically everyone's kind of
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  Speaker 2: closely related. And what that did. So what Ricardo de
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  Speaker 2: Chen's theory is to get to the point is that
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  Speaker 2: these nomad warrior type guys, they I mean, these guys
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  Speaker 2: would just strip naked, paint themselves up, and be ready
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  Speaker 2: to fight to the death, you know, over just a
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  Speaker 2: matter of their honor. That requires a certain level of
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: psychopathy to do that. For sure. Yes, it's definitely, you know,
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  Speaker 2: an interesting personality profile. But you know we have to say, okay,
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  Speaker 2: so Europeans are largely descended from those kind of people.
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  Speaker 2: So what's the result. Well, the result is is for
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  Speaker 2: college Schend points out that you have people who are
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  Speaker 2: much more individualistic. And really, what we're getting at when
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  Speaker 2: we're talking about that in terms of what kind of
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  Speaker 2: society they produce, is they want systems of government. They
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  Speaker 2: want laws which recognize them as being rational, discerning people
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  Speaker 2: who care about truth in the world. They care about
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  Speaker 2: objective truths, and they also care about their kudos, you know,
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  Speaker 2: their own glory, you know, like these warrior nomad guys,
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  Speaker 2: they were ready to die, you know, for their image,
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  Speaker 2: right for glory. So what that ends up producing is
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: a kind of egalitarianism amongst amongst the aristocrats. It's this
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  Speaker 2: kind of libertarian sort of I'm not just going to
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  Speaker 2: kill all of my competitors and say, ha, you know
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  Speaker 2: now I'm the despotic king. I actually want to have
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  Speaker 2: some other lords and barons and other guys like that around,
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  Speaker 2: because they're the ones who respect me, you know, they
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: give me kudos. And so this kind of aristocratic competition
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: leads to competition in everything. And so Duschen's theory is, well,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: this is where philosophy, which is this It's this art
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: that grows out of you know, Homer's heroic songs. You know,
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  Speaker 2: who can remember the hero the best and what his
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: achievements were and why they were good, what's objectively good
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: about them? And so out of that emerges philosophy. It's like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: so what art the virtuous principles? What really makes a
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  Speaker 2: man a great man? What makes me my best self?
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  Speaker 2: And so you know this abstraction of thought, that's Greek philosophy.
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  Speaker 2: That's what they were doing, and that produces a certain
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  Speaker 2: kind of law. And the reason I say, okay, but
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: you've got to be careful about just saying, oh, it's
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  Speaker 2: Greeks and Greek philosophy and this is the Greek miracle
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: is because they were kind of doing something very similar
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: all across Europe. And as an Icelandic friend is very
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: quick to point out to me, in the Icelandic sagas,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: they really care about law and these subjective principles and
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: all of that stuff, and you know, what makes a
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: hero and so much of it is just it can
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: even be a bit boring. It's about law. It's supposed
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: to be like a heroic saga, but you know there's
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: sort of like courtroom drama going on, and there's philosophizing,
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  Speaker 2: and so I say, what makes the West so unique? Is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, kind of who our ancestors are, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and how that makes us think about ourselves. And that's
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: not to be mean or to be dismissive of other
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: great civilizations. It's just to be as factual as we
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: can about what makes you know, what has made Europe
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: and it's it's unique attitude towards law what it is,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: and so yeah, there's there's nothing, there's nothing mean spirited
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  Speaker 2: about it. Unfortunately, Ricardo de Shen he was one of
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: those last great scholars of Western civilization, which is kind
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: of like a dying subject now, and actually because he
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: was touching on something which is so sensitive now, he
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: was kind of forced into early retirement, which is which
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: is a bit sad. But nevertheless, you know, he's continued
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: to write, so he's Okay.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: You mentioned Greece and Rome. So basically what you're arguing
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: is that the foundations of Western civilization on linked I
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: suppose to the Roman Empire and to Greco Roman culture
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: and customs and law.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Rome is so important because we get
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: our philosophy in general, let's say, from Greece, but in
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: terms of how that's applied practically, in terms of politics, well,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: we owe that to Rome, and so Rome had the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: benefit of looking at all of the Greek city state projects,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: looking at this policy and that, and saying, well, what
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: did they get right? What did they get right, and
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: trying to create a system which would work. And we're
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: still working on the same system effectively, just adapt to
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: them so slightly here and there, like we're still working
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: on a Roman model. There's a nice book called Ad
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Infinitum I believe it's called, and the scholar writing that
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: book he's mostly looking at Latin, so he's looking at
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: the Latin language. But you know, the conclusion he's coming
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: to is that the Romans gave us just so very
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: much in terms of our practical philosophy.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: You said the Romans gave us that. I'm reminded of
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the one deep Python skitch. But what did the Romans
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: do for us?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: There was a documentary series when I was younger which
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: had that title to it, and I remember at the time,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: you know, so many British people young and old watching
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: this and just being absolutely stunned by how much they
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: did for Britain. And yeah, it's not surprise sing that.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, we know the story of Budhakr and you know,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: this rebellion against the Romans by you know, the British,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Yeah, of course that did happen.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say that they were angels and
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: they weren't terribly cruel in Britain. But I think one
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: of the reasons they were so cruel to some of
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: the people was because you know, some of the other
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Britons were welcoming these guys with open arms, like bringing
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: all this immense technology, baths and which is everything imaginable
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: and so, you know, as well as like the writing,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: and you know, it was like you know, Aliens landing
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: with all this amazing technology, including the cure for cancer,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: and you know, so so many people were saying, well,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: this is brilliant. You know, why wouldn't we want this stuff?
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, so much of the you know,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: the elites, amongst the Breton truebes, they did welcome the Romans.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, this is why we have the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: legends of King Arthur. And this is why I think
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: the you know, British politics has always been you know
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit more liberty oriented as well. I mean,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: you could say there's something about you know, an island
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: people there. But I think that this embrace and you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: running with the Roman political project, I think that's that
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: helps tremendously as well, a lot of hiccups along the way.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: But you know, enough about Britain. I'm just talking about
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: it because I'm from there. It's more personal to me.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: But speaking more broadly, yeah, all of Western civilization is
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: just us dressing up a Roman skeleton in all sorts
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: of different ways, and you know, calling it something maybe
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a little bit different here or there, but but it's
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: it's unavoidable. We can't do without it. And you know,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: you especially see that in the legal system in terms
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: of international law. Okay, yeah, that's that's more of a
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Roman Catholic development. International law is definitely something that Catholicism
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: developed later. But I would argue that Rome made the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: idea of a sustainable global empire, like that kind of vision,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: made it something that was actually possible in a way
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: that Alexander before, you know, couldn't couldn't really achieve. So
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Rome couldn't be more important for our civilization, for civilization itself. Frankly,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Just as an anecdote, I as an African, white African Obviously,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: my anxiety levels go through the roof because I can
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: never decide whether or not I am Western. Interesting though, Yeah,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: going back to what you're talking about the West, why
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: then do all roads appear to lead to Jerusalem?
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Hmmm? Interesting question. Interestingly put, I think certainly since the
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: decline of Catholicism in the West, and you know, people
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: don't speak enough about just how revolutionary the Protestant Reformation
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: was because you know, think of it, think of it.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: You have prior to that, everyone perceiving Europe as this
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: very definite corporate body. It's like a living entity with
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: all of the many different kinds of polities existing within
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: that and everything in between. Actually, because you know, there
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: are all sorts of religious orders and guilds and all
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: manner of different arrangements and organizations you know, which went
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: between all these different jurisdictions, you know, so it was,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: you know, truly a living thing. So when it suddenly
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: became possible, and this idea then had political and financial support,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: when it became possible for an individual to decide for
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: him or herself, you know what, what does the Bible say?
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to absolutely determine that for myself. And
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter what anyone else says or thinks.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Something like that is like kryptonite to European people, who
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: you know, as we've already mentioned, are just naturally very individualistic.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: So this, any any of this kind of egoism or
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: spiritual individualism, when you when you when you talk about
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: when you talk about it, even like in negative terms,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: this really riles up European people, especially British people, who
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: are so concerned. You know, liberalism is so intrinsically tied
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: to the British people's conception of themselves and their tradition
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Angloliberalism is it is synonymous even with nationalism in this country.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: And so you know, when you start to question, you say, well,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: you know, does an individual even really exist? You know,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you you come into this world,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: you're given a language, you are necessarily enculturated like you
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: have to be, and you know your your very thoughts
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: are so heavily informed of everything around you. And you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: let alone the fact that you know this is a fact.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: You know, the vast majority of people are not capable
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: of original thought. I'm not saying that to be mean,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I'm saying that because that's that is a scientific fact.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: You know. We we are just necessarily like group beings
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: in every way, even even thought leaders who you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: can afford maybe to be a bit more aristocratic, a
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: bit more individualistic, you know, even even they, yes, even
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: they are relyant not having community, family, things of that nature.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: They're indebted to, you know, their country and you know
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: where they got their language from, et cetera, et cetera.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: So yeah, sorry, go.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: On, no, no, I can see you thinking, oh, I'm
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: straying away from the point a little bit here, because
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I do think that that is, that is the the crux,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: that's the that's the turning point on which the West
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: started to take a very different course and moved away
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: from a corporates conception of ourselves to you know where today,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: you know, following you know, they're being you know, so
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: political liberalism and the various revolutions over centuries that that
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: that brought. You know, we arrive at this point now
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: where we are hyper individualistic, which is the term that's
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: used to describe the West today. Where we're even at
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: the point now now where it's a commonplace to think
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: in terms of well, you know, soon we're going to
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: be able to transfer our ego from our biological body
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: into a computer. You know, we'll be able to live forever.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: You know, this is like, this is like a trope now,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: it's almost boring, like we've seen it done so many
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: times in sci fi over the past ten years. And
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: so you know, your question was, how do all roads
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: then lead to Jerusalem? I think what we're asking is,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: how is it that you know, the Western mind has
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: so divorced itself from Rome and a corporate conception of
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: itself that international forces, you know, so you know, you
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: know you're talking about you know, Jerusalem in terms of
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: you know, having political influence you know, of a Western countries,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: let's say. And you know, unfortunately we're seeing that play
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: out right now in the Strait of hor Moos. You
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: know where Iran is asking America, you know, hey, can
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: you tell your ally to you please stop attacking Lebanon
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: And they can afford to put that in the agreement
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: because they know, no, America can't really do anything about that.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So it's a clever play. Now. The reason they can't
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: do anything about that, and the reason that the West
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: has its hands tied behind its back in all sorts
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: of different ways today, and we see a complete dissolution
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of anything resembling a Roman identity and everything that we
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: had before that, you know, that corporate concept. We had
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: a very clear understanding of our story as Western, as
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: our story as Europeans. I think that that ultimately stems
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: from a spiritual individualism. That's that would be my answer.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So you mentioned Protestants Protestantism because it's not
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: something that I've thought much about over the years until
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: it came up perhaps a few months ago in conversation,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and how it potentially weakened that Roman identity across the West.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: That's essentially what you're alluding to.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I am, yes. I Now I don't want to you know,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: throw the baby out with the bar forater, as it were,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: because you know, I have lots of Protestant friends who
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: take their country seriously, you know, their patriots, and they
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: they seem to love God, you know, maybe even putting
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: me to shame. You know, they have a strong love
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: of Christ and they and they're well versed in Western
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: history broadly, and so I'm hesitant to say all Protestants
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: like that are you know, enemies of Rome, and they're
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: necessarily anti some kind of Roman identity. I don't want
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to do that, but I can't ignore the fact, you know, necessarily,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: necessarily there is an egoism to this rupture that's happened
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: in the church. Being you know, having been for several
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: years about Protestant myself, I have to say, necessarily, but
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: there is this Necessarily, there's necessarily a lack of a
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: corporate identity in Protestantism, and that is just so obvious
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: from the number of different churches that they have. And
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: this is a whole other debate, and I'm kind of
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: opening a can of worms there a little bit, but
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: it should be no surprise, you know, as a Catholic,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: what I see is that, yes, there's there is this
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: divorce from Rome, you know, literally in terms of from
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the Bishop of Rome within the church, and there is
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: necessarily an individualism, there is a spiritual individualism. And you know,
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: if you read some of my writing, I do go
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: into where I like even some of the more traditional
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: serious sorts of Protestantism, like Calvinism. I do look into
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: similarities between that and you know, Gnosticism and other schools
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: of philosophy and theology which are more individualistic and which
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: are necessarily anti Catholic on that basis, and how that
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: informs the politics, and so why it's completely unsurprising that
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: political liberalism was born from Protestantism directly. So you know,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I can't ignore that. But you know, I do love
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Protestants individually. I know how that sounds. I'm hoping you
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: believe me well.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, you are being remarkably diplomatic, and there isn't
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: a need to. You don't have to be so diplomatic.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: But your point about half individualism in the West is
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: well made. It's something that has bothered me for a
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: long time and I've never been able to put, you know,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: my thumb on it, Like, why has it been the
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: case that the West is so ultra individualized? I was
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: in China last year and it's not like that. There's
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: a sense of community and collective family what's the word prioritization?
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: And yes, it's almost as though hyper individualism, as you
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: refer to it, is a direct attack therefore on what
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: means to be a family unit, a community. You know,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: the kids must leave the nest when they turn eighteen,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: go away. Just everything must everything must just break, everything
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: must break apart. It doesn't seem conducive to a good,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: solid future.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: No, not at all. And I mean you're mentioning the
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: you know, the breakdown of the family, that kind of thing.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: People say, well, what's what's incentivizing this. I think that
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: a part of the genius of Christ was where he
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: presented man's spiritual dichotomy, the struggle. Not it's between you know,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: God and Satan, not like that, Not between you know,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: God and self. He said God and Mammon. He said,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: you can't serve them both, to paraphrase. And that seems
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: to be the mechanism by which civilizations decline and collapse. Yes,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: so many students of civilization or collapse will readily point
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to how the attitude of men it turns from one
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: of so of this to selfishness. But how how you know? What? What?
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: What are the patterns that we see every single time?
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: You know? Why is it? But the greatest students of
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: civilization or collapse will say that they die through suicide,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: not by murder. What's going on there? And I think
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: it has something to do with mammon. I think it
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: has to do with technology, and mammon is that central?
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: How can I put it? Ultimate? Technology? Money is that
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: technology by which we believe we can do anything. Everything,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: everything suddenly appears to be within our control, whereas actually
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: it isn't, you know, and you know it being as
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: foolish as as zicarous. You know, that's what that story
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: is about.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: But you kind of, if I'm following correctly, you're kind
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: of making a parallel then with liberalism and gnosism.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely yeah. And you know, look, Protestantism doesn't get
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: to escape here either. Many authors have talked about how, yes, okay,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: in fairness, that is correct. Capitalism, modern capitalism did emerge
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: in northern Italy, which was Catholic, That is absolutely true.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Why why did it find a new home though, in
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: the Netherlands and Britain Because that was a much more
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: habitable environment for it at that time. Once Protestantism had
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: come on the scene and alliging itself with more secessionist,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: smaller urbanite Calvinist Protestant experiments, it was able to become
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: much more industrious, indeed to start the industrial revolution from
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: those two countries, in particular, in a way, you know,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: far in advance of others, let's say. And so yes,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: this this this spiritual individualism, not only is it just
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: it's yeah, okay, it's you know, kryptonite for white people
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: who are more individualistic. But individualism is the the main
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: symptom of a civilization in decline. It's if it's if
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: you will, it's even the death throw of a civilization
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: or of a you know, a smaller polity, you know,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: like an empire for instance. It all follows the same pattern.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: And so it's where there is success, whether it's victory,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: where there's peace, then where there's trade rather than fighting
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: outside enemies, you know, rather you know, all the enemies
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: outside have been defeated, so a civilization will turn inward.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: The competition then becomes internal, it becomes economic. And where
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: there is the ability because the resources available and a
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: successful empire to develop more technologies, especially in the cities
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: of course, and to massively increase their urban populations, that
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: they're necessarily then is a hubris. There's necessarily a hubris.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: There's far too much leisure, let's say, on people's hands,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: and the idea of needing to have men marshall values
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and masculine men, this becomes something archaic, brutish, vulgar, and
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: so yes, technology, mammon, this is something seductive to us,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: it is something dangerous to us. And so every collapsing
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: empire and civilization follows the same process. And you know,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: this is why it's so politically important to maintain a
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: handle on your technology, you know, to be able to
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: ensure that technology property in everything is nevertheless wielded towards
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the common good, or at least not wielded against the
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: common good. And and you know that involves our money.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: That involves money, and so you know, we live at
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: a time where everything is financialized and even you know,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: desire is something that is generated as as a product.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: You know, you don't need to watch mad Men to
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: get that and to you know, to know what's going on.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, although I don't necessarily want to
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: just go on some massive like anti capitalists screed or
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: something like that, you know, because of course there would
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: be the plenty we could say about the left. You know,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: something that is important to understand is that you know,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: we actually, you know, in what I was just saying there,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: we associate capitalism so much with the right. But but
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: is that correct? Is it right to do so? Is
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: you know, having everything financialized and having you know, international
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: monetary influence over nations. Is that right wing? Now, that's
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: extremely liberal, that's that's liberalism. And yet, well, look look
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: at all the conservative organizations. You know, they're all, you know,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: very pro capitalist, and you have lots of you are
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: lots of Catholic ones as well, actually lots of you know,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: right wing notable Catholic authors, and they are you know,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: fully on board. You know, they sound like like neo
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: cons when they're talking about free markets and this kind
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: of thing. So, yeah, that was a really long, witded
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: answer to your to your question there. But you know,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I do think that that is that that's something important
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: to bring up. You know, I was saying before religion
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: is so important for civilization. I'd say, mammon, in particular,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: that is that's the civilization killer. And that's that's kind
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: of the thing we want to be watching out for.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Talking about more.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: You've mentioned left right labels a few times now. I've
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: argued over the in the past that these terms are
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: kind of redundant these days because nobody can ready define them.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: They had they had a meaning once upon a time,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: particularly around the French Revolution. When you speak about left
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: doing right wing, what do you mean.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's so important. Firstly, I agree with you completely.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: What what do I mean by left wing and right wing?
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean there's no sorry, there's no harm in
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: using the terms if we can define them.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the thing. That's the thing is that
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: they do kind of mean different things to different people,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: and they get co opted, you know, since the Cold War,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: or the term right wing has been co opted to
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: mean exactly what I was just talking about. You know,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: it kind of means small government, free markets. It's like
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: a Reagan, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. You know, they
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: became you know, the dominant right wing figures. But you know,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: is that actually right wing? You know, it's changed so much.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: You know. Another example we might mention is the fact
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: that environmentalism. Environmentalism not that long ago, was something of
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: the right, you know, romanticism, you know, and caring about
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: the environment. This is like a revival of Franciscan Catholic
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: attitudes about the world, and it was perceiving beauty in
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: the world, you know, as this undeniable thing to try
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: and generate a again in the West, higher values, being
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: more objective and virtuous and you know, not atheistic or
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: you know, something like that. So that's completely changed as well.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: So your question was what would I mean when I
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: say left wing and right wing? Now there have been
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: some authors who would say, well, when we're talking about
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: the right or right wing, as Catholics, we would be
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: thinking about Christ sat on the right hand of the father.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: And so when we talk about the right, we're talking
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: about what is right and what is good, you know,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: what is truthful, and so we were kind of talking
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: about everything that is conducive to the common good. Now
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: when we talk about the left, and you have to ask, well,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: what is the word left? Literally, in lots of languages,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Latin languages, it's sinestra. It's it's sinister, so like it
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: means evil, to the point that even when my mother
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: arrest her soul, you know, when she was at school,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: they would, you know, tie left handed children tay their
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: hand behind their back so they can They had to
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: they had to learn to write with their right hand
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: because there was something demonic about using the left hand.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't laugh, it's it's kind of cruel. It's not
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: that funny. But you know, so when I'm talking in
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: terms of the left and the right, I really want
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: to simplify it a lot more, and I want to say,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: we're really talking about, you know, what what builds up civilizations,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: what sustains civilizations, and like I said, what's consucer to
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: the common good? And then what leads to this this individualism,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: what leads to people wanting to take advantage of any
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: of those systems for cynical reasons, for selfish reasons, for
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: mamanistic reasons. And that that's kind of what it means
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: to me. But you know that that just sounds too
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: vague for people. You know, Okay, so what policies are
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: you talking about? What party do I have to vote for?
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: This is where then, you know, people people want to
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: have something concrete and practical. They want to be able
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: to look at someone or some group and point to
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: that and say, right, okay, so this is this is
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: These are the guys, this is this is the group
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: and I and I get it. I think that we
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: do have to be a little bit more discerning. You know,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: colla is upon us. You know, the enemies are within
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: the gates, as people would want to say. You know,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Western countries are in a real dire state, you know,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: the UK, especially for all sorts of different reasons, some
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: of which I probably can't even discuss because I don't know.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's illegal, I don't know. That's just how mad
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: things are at the moment. And so we do have
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: to be a bit more discerning. We do have to
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: get clued up, and we do have to be circumspect.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: So if I'm following correctly, basically, Judeo Christianity is a
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: nonsensical term, it should be Roman.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: As a Catholic, when I'm looking at my tradition and
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at the Church's role in the West and
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: what that is, I do have to recognize, all right, yeah,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: but I mean things have been different. It's the fifteen hundreds,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot's happened since then, and so you know,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I have to recognize then that there are other people
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: who they have views which are by now kind of
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: long standing, and they perceive the West as something completely different.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: And they don't even have to be like Protestants or
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Jews or something, because you know, even Oswald Spengler, who
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: you know, loads of people on the right, you know,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: love him, and you know, to their mind when they're
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: thinking about civilization or life cycles, he's the guy he's
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: the one that they've read and his ideas and his
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: vocabulary is in their head. So he perceives the modern
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: West as a separate civilization too, you know, Roman Catholicism definitely.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: You know, he sees it as a Faustian civilizedzation I
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: believe he calls it. And so he would view the
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: British Empire as being something completely different to the Roman Empire,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: you know, so that they're just they're just far too
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: divorced to his mind. I don't go with that. I
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think that that's I think that's true at all.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I think that British Empire, you know, Napoleon and what
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: he was doing, the Spanish Empire, you know, I think
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: all of that stuff is very clearly built on a
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Roman model. They kind of thought themselves as Roman. So
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: I you know, my my perception of Western history and
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Western civilization is that it's it's the Church. It comes
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: out of Rome and Romans that Romans Romans, that's beating heart.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: And so you know, I look at Roman Catholicism as
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: a continuation of the Roman Empire.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: There are I'm sorry, let me jump in, I'm following you.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Sorry, So when I said Roman, I probably should have
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: said Roman Catholic rather than Judeo Christian.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Well well, yeah, yeah, yeah, So I mean what you
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: were saying was, you know when I say that that
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: it's not we're not built on a Judeo Christian foundation,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: because I mean, that's very popular. That language is really
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: popular at the moment. But you know when you look
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: at academic writing about that terminology, suddenly everyone is willing
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: to recognize that this is a bit of an oxymoron.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: What do we mean by this. It's actually so tentative
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: where this might actually be applicable, this term, that it
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: would be a bit careless just to use it in
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: politics and say, hey, this is Western civilization and then
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: in the same sentence say Judeo Christian, because because it's
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: just dishonest. You know, if I were to have a
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: conversation with Jewish friends and actually some Jewish converts to Catholicism,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: who I know, they would say, yeah, you know, obviously
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: there was this massive, you know rupture where we had
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: two Jewish Roman wars in the first century, and this
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: concluded with Prince Titus getting really cheesed off that the
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: you know, one of these revolutions had just killed so
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: many Romans and so he said, this enormous army just
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: to wipe everyone out, and the Roman Temple was destroyed
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: famously in seventy a D. You know, kind of unforgettably.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: And and you know, if you speak with you know Jews,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: especially due to a you know, practicing you know, religious Jews,
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: or if you speak to you know a lot of
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: folks in Israel, you know, so where you know, their
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: identity is like a strong, important daily part of their lives.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: They remember this, you know, they they look back and
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: they think about the destruction of the temple in seventy
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: a D. And so you know what what happened after that?
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Then okay, well we have a Jewish diaspora where they
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: always welcomed everywhere. You know, has there been this you know,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: great symbiosis everywhere? And it was, well, no, we have
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: we have to acknowledge that there has been a lot
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: of turbulence. Let's say, you know, we can just leave
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: it at that. We don't need to go into any details.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: So we you know, we don't need to offend anyone.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: You know, it should be something that you know, I
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: should avoid. But that's the truth, you know, those are
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: the facts. So you know, when we're talking about Judeo Christian,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: well what do we mean then? Okay, Well, as a Catholic,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: my understanding is that, you know, Christ came, Christ was
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: the Messiah. Now at the time, he was rejected by
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: not all, but you know a number of his people,
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: especially leaders in Jerusalem at the time, and so you know,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: a new kind of Judaism, you know, that's how we
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: call it formed afterwards, and it's you know, it's based
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: on the Talmud and you know, so it has its
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: whole history, but nevertheless it's something kind of post Christian.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: And so the way we perceive it, and you know,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: contrary to what a lot of traditional Catholics actually will
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: tell you, in the Second Vatican Council, you know, sort
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: of sixties seventies time, the documents produced talking about this
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: and talking about our relationship with the Jews. They they reaffirm,
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: you know, what we've always believed, which is that you know,
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: although the covenant that Jews have or had as a nation,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: so that you know that Moses and the Tablets of
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Stone and you know, this particular priesthood and everything like that,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: you know, although that came to an end with the
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: destruction of the temple. You know this promise which was
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: much earlier to the figure of Abraham, which is that
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: you know, don't worry, you know everyone, you know, the
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: whole world is going to start to become a monotheist
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: like you, Abraham. You know, your children will be like
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: the sand of the sea. And you know, don't worry
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: that you're surrounded by polytheists. You know, this is going
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: to win out in the end. That promise to Abraham
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: is fulfilled in Christ. And you know he was the
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Messiah because well look, you know he's He's brought the
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: whole world, you know, to worship one God and to
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: live in peace with each other. You know, you know, arguably,
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: arguably Christianity has been a great force for peace in
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: the world, developing international law, like I said, and you know,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: creating you know, fairer laws and just generally you know,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: our stop stopping, you know, not killing each other in
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: coliseums and stuff like that.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: So you're going to get pushed back though, you know
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: that they're going to say, ah, but look at all
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: the wars that were were caused in the name of Christianity.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean absolutely, absolutely, people going to talk about
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: the Crusades, so they're going to talk about colonization, and
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: you know, all of these all of these hot topics,
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: you know, all these buttons that can be pushed at
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: that point. But I'm just saying, you know what I
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: believe as a as a Catholic, and you know what
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: our view is, and so our story of what Western
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: civilization is as the people who actually built Western civilization
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: is that it's Roman and Roman Catholicism is a continuation
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: of that. It's a continuation of that Roman experiment. The
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Church inherited the Roman Empire. And you know, it would
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: take me way too long to go into that, but
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: there is a great book by someone called Alan Fimister
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: with an M femist and it's called The Iron Scepter
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: of the Son of Man has this long subtitle as well,
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: but it's just absolutely brilliant because this view the way
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: the Church understood the prophecies and how and why Rome
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: had to inherit the Kingdom of God after the Messiah
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: was you know, rejected in the first century a d.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: Why you know all of that. He brings all of
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: that together brilliantly, and I thought was a great book
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: and needed because we've you know, we've just forgotten this
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: story about ourselves. But you know, the other thing is,
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: you know the other thing, Jim is you know, people
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: are gonna look at what I'm saying and they're saying, oh,
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: so you're saying that people who have like this, you know,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Jewish perspective on what Western civilization is and their role
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: in it. Oh, you're saying that they're wrong and they
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: have a false understanding and that when they tell their story,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: what they're doing is they're lying and they're deceiving people
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: or something like that. And it's like, no, I'm not
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: saying that they're out to try and like poison your
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: mind or something. Yeah, obviously, okay, they're going to have
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: their own story. I'm just saying, okay, but what Western
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: civilization actually is is what it was always recognized as,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: which is something that was built on a Greco Roman
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: heritage and Roman Catholicism was a natural continuation of that though,
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: and you know that is what Western civilization was built on.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: You know, just like I'm going to get pushed back,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: I'm sure from some people who love Spangler or some
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: of these pagan guys. I always end up debating, and
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: they're going to say that they have their own kind
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: of pagan perspective on Western civilization, and you know, they
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: think that Christianity was this massive rupture or whatever. You know, No,
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I disagree, and I think it's almost unarguable that the
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Roman Catholic Church built Western civilization, and that you know,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: we should be able to tell our own story and
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: that people shouldn't think that by doing so, we are
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: rejecting them out of hate or something, which is just
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: obviously nonsense.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: How can I follow your work?
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: I'm on x Twitter. If anyone still calls it that,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: you can find me there. I don't think I'm called
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: Richard's Story on there. A lot of my friends call
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: me Rick spelled r I K. Don't ask why some
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: at Rick's Story. You can probably find me on x
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: there under that handle. I think I have a picture
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: of myself biddy guy respects, so you'll be able to
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: see me there. Also. I write a lot for a
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: publishing house called arctose A r K T O S.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: And they published a number of really interesting articles. There's
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: going to be stuff that you know, you're not going
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: to find on maybe other right wing publications, but it's
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: it's a really broad tempt of stuff that they published there,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: including me. You know, they're happy to have me there.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: It's not an exclusively Catholic thing at all, you know,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: by any means. And there's a lot of debate that
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: goes on there as well. But yeah, there's always some
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: you know, interesting content for right wingers there as well.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm starting to write a bit more now,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: so you can probably find my articles there every now
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: and then.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: Richard Story, thank you for joining me in the Drenchers.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure.