Latest / The Media Odyssey / WAGING THE CTV OS WARS with Alan Wolk

Transcript

WAGING THE CTV OS WARS with Alan Wolk · The Media Odyssey

• Alan Wolk: [00:00:00] So if I'm scrolling through Instagram and I see something like the only person who's pausing the video for is me, so if I want to buy it. But if I'm sitting with other people and watching something, I'm not gonna go, oh, could y'all just wait while I buy these sunglasses? Like it'll only take a few minutes. Marion Ranchet: So this week on the pod, I have a new husband. I had to, so for once, I'm not with Eva Shapiro, my traditional co-host we're on a break like Russ and Rachel just for, the both of us to have some nice time off. We've been working hard and so I had to choose, a new friend for this episode. And honestly, it took me a second, so let me welcome Alan walk from [00:01:00] TV Rev to the Media Odyssey. Welcome, Alan. Alan Wolk: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. I have been a big fan of the media odyssey since it started. I was pleased that you guys had name checked me once or twice, and I, because I told you guys I listened to it as podcasts were meant to be listened in the car while I'm driving. Or while I'm walking the dog. So Marion Ranchet: nice to have you as a listener. But for those who know you, you have an amazing newsletter, TV, rev. You write extensively about advertising CTV streaming, you name it. And we have something in common besides, having a really cool jean looking shirt which we said. Alan Wolk: Yes. Marion Ranchet: It's never gonna happen with nne. Eva never has a nice shirt, always a t-shirt. No. I'm loving this, but we have this other thing in common that is that we talk and write at length about the TV os wars. So that's what I wanna talk about today. Just to get started, the one thing when we were preparing for this, [00:02:00] I've been thinking and I've felt it's been quiet on the CTV front. Do you feel the same? Is it me? Alan Wolk: No, it's definitely there hasn't been, 'cause I write a column called The Weekly Review every week, and usually it's obvious what I'm gonna write about. There was a big news story and then all of a sudden the last few weeks it's okay, now we're gonna tackle some big issues. 'cause there's no news that's happened. So I think everybody's just whether it's the new administration in Washington or just the beginning of the year, there is this sort of okay let's just pause for a minute. Marion Ranchet: And I think we had a very eventful 2024 and, last, but not least, an announcement of a new player coming into that space. And I wrote about it in streaming made easy. And to me it made no sense to me. This ecosystem is so fragmented, but, so let's pause maybe for a second. Yeah. On that big news from last year, which is the trade desk. First what's your take on them? Coming into that ecosystem, especially, from [00:03:00] someone like Hugh who's very acute to advertising and, at technology, I. Gene. Alan Wolk: Yeah, it didn't make any sense to me either. And to be honest, I had yet to meet one person who had, who said yo, what a great idea. Yeah. Like everybody is equally as baffled by it. In the US market, they seem to I don't, the other way I can describe it is it, they almost thought, okay, we're building Firefox, like we're building another browser and people can just put it on their tv. And they seem to ignore the fact that no, you can't. Yeah. If you have an LG TV, it comes with the LGOS and that's it. Yes you can put a Roku stick on, but like those are your options. There's really not much room in the US market. There's, there's some room in Europe. It's also, it seems that they forgot that this is a user thing that they, they were very focused on advertisers. I'm gonna make this great for advertisers. And it's but you have to get a consumer. To actually install it and download it and use it. And you haven't given any reason why you [00:04:00] think a consumer would wanna do this? Yeah, it really didn't make any sense. The only theory that I heard, and I think people were just grasping at straws, was like, maybe they're gearing up to try and buy Roku. 'cause they want to say they're in the OS business. And even that was like, I guess if someone held a gun to my head and said, come up with a reason, but. It didn't really, I didn't really buy it. Marion Ranchet: Yeah that's an interesting one. I hadn't heard that. I have to say that they went shopping at Roku not necessarily directly, but a lot of former Roku executive actually joined that secret venture within within the Trade Desk folks who. Were very much present, during the early days of of Roku over 10 years ago including a few more recent folks. So I think, they, what they got right is that they knew they had to, build the right team to go about this. I think, they were a bit optimistic on their ability to have deals. With manufacturers because the one [00:05:00] thing they won't be doing is they're not making their own device, right? Yeah. They're just making the brain and the device. And so their first client, the rumor and it was confirmed a bit later on was Sonos. And what did we hear about Sonos, Alan? What's going on with this thing? Yeah, we're, Alan Wolk: We're not gonna do an OS and who is selling? So that was the other thing they didn't seem to get is that it's a real volume game. Yeah. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. And Alan Wolk: Yeah. So Sono sold some tv, so what are they gonna sell? Like a hundred thousand of them and like what, versus a couple million from everybody else doesn't really get you anything. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. And Sonos is has its own troubles and they've actually decided to scrap that project. And Alan Wolk: yeah, Marion Ranchet: one of the things I wrote about was the price point. I think it was in between set to be between 204 hundreds. There's not room, there's not a lot of room, but certainly there's not a lot of room. For someone who's coming with, a very expensive TV with no prior experience nor, a very high priced setup box. Alan Wolk: It's baffling. Apple has this [00:06:00] weird thing where they clinging to the business model that worked for them in the early OTs, which is somebody else will launch a product and the product will become very popular in the market, but that company will be. Very engineering driven and make a very unusable, unuser friendly product. And we can come in with something that's really user friendly and grab the home market. Yeah. What they did with the iPhone but doesn't work anymore. Like they, they introduced what's they called their home pod up against, Alexa and like Lexi's pretty good there's no advantage to it or even the Google product. There's no, to just, especially to justify the price point. They did the same thing with the streaming TV dev with Apple Music. They did the same thing with Apple Music too, where people like Spotify, there's nothing wrong with the UX or Spotify. People like it. They didn't really offer any great improvement and now the same thing with the tv, like it has always baffled me. That they never rolled out a [00:07:00] lower priced Apple TV device and especially 'cause this is the company that realized 25 years ago, okay, the iPod is probably a little expensive for some people. We're gonna roll out the iPod Mini and then there was an even smaller one to shuffle. That's what it was called. Yeah. It was like $25 or something and like they got it back then it's like, why don't you roll out a stick because the hundred. I think it was 180 then Now it's $130. Now box is just not six x better than a Roku stick or an Amazon fire TV stick. It's, maybe a little better, but 5%. Yeah. But, and the same thing with tv. I think they just don't know what to do. Even with their app, right? Apple TV plus. Like it's got a bunch of hit shows, but there's no library and it's unclear do you see it as a marketing expense? Is it just like a marketing tool for you? Do you want it to actually be successful? Is it a hobby? They just, they haven't figured it out. Then last thing is there's that poor [00:08:00] guy, gene Munster. He's a financial analyst who for years would predict that this is the year Apple's gonna roll out the Apple TV every year. He was wrong and he made more money than everybody listening to this podcast. I'm sure Marion Ranchet: it's actually the first edition I wrote for streaming Made Easy was called Apple tv, or the Im Impossible, breakthrough and I, I. Absolutely aligned with you. I just, I'm not sure I still understand why they couldn't do it. I think one thing would be that, historically they've been very good at, building and innovating from the ground up. Whereas the TV business, it's very much in the hands of, historically the Korean, now the Chinese, even European, have been very good at, making those TVs. And was it too hard for them to disrupt that existing, ecosystem? They didn't want it enough or it didn't fit with their agenda of going very premium, very expensive. Yeah. Let's see. But you were [00:09:00] talking about big tech. And so how do you see Google and, Amazon and this TV OS Wars? Alan Wolk: I think, so they've got different paths. So Amazon is actually already making their own TVs and Amazon has the whole Fire TV ecosystem and the Amazon Prime ecosystem. So they've got a huge ad play. They're pushing out Amazon TVs in the US and especially in Europe. I think a lot of the OEMs have a. Fear with them that, okay, we'll, we'll let them in. And then that's it. Like they'll just kind, it's the last of us they'll just be like that, take over and that's that. And then Google also, I've heard people say, point blank that, hey, they told all our telecom friends, oh, we're not gonna roll out a phone, use ROS. And then they rolled out their own phone and they like, fumi wants, so I think there's a fear with that. Then you've got the, the CE manufacturers, right? Yeah. Samsung and LG that are also selling [00:10:00] their inter, their interface and I think Visio is as well. And again, it's that same thing. It's yeah, it's good. Yeah, they did all the work, what's in it for me? And I think it varies from market to market, depending on how sophisticated the market is as to where people go. And it is an easy solution and obviously there's people buying it, but I think there's also this kind of fear, and maybe we should look at some of these, sort of white label third party companies as well. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. So I think that's a fascinating ecosystem because everyone wants in on it. Hence why it's so fragmented today. Hence why I think there's no room truly, anymore. And actually the best path forward for me would be consolidation. But yeah, the 2025 I doubt this will happen. We're not taking the path of a year where people feel good about making deals. We all wonder why, but, so if you look at that ecosystem. You have the big tech that we covered. You have the historical, hardware manufacturer, Samsung, lg, et cetera. [00:11:00] And this last portion, it's the Indies, right? They like to say where that independent os and we've seen actually those are the companies who've made the news the last few years. May that be TiVo Fox, soon becoming well, tv. Who else do we have? We have Titan. Alan Wolk: Titan. Yeah. Marion Ranchet: So these guys are, so they're, they have different strategies, right? Meaning that. Besides Whale who does pure, they do brand their TVs, but also have white label offerings, Titan, TiVo, they're very much in the business of doing what Hoku did that is to have a co-branded device, right? So that's gonna be a Phillips Titan Sony, Titan TiVo Sharp, et cetera. What do they have in your opinion to Yeah. Have a shot right. Running, going at this so late for some of these guys. Has been around the block for [00:12:00] years with Fox Zoom, but a Titan, a TiVo. We're talking two, three years. Alan Wolk: Yeah, I mean I think what they have going is that, they're not Amazon, Google or a big, another big company. In other words that if you are a small TV manufacturer Yeah, and you don't want to spend money developing your own os, it's a great solution. It gives you something that's outta the box. Development costs are spread out across a number of, different clients, and they all have their own sort of little, niche. So Titan is very much focused for now on the European market and saying, Hey, we have local knowledge. We'll get that. Whales, as you noted, has been doing it for a while. They've got, everything figured out. And Xper, which is TiVo is also like they've been, my kids always laugh and I say TiVo used to be a verb. Yeah, I'm gonna ti he would say I TiVo it. And they have a very advanced interface. And they've been doing a lot of stuff recently about advertising and monetization. So that's, that's their [00:13:00] play as well. And I think for a lot of these smaller, smaller manufacturers, that could be an in, it's like, why are we different than the other guys who've got this hot Os and not my, that. And then that's where the innovation is happening, right? Yeah. Like at some level I don't see Amazon and Google innovating as much as just pushing their own stuff. Yeah. Marion Ranchet: What I've noticed with this guys, because they're coming in, late to the game, huh. So to say, because we've been doing TVs for for years. They're taking a bit of a shortcut. And I think that's an interesting one in the sense that they're looking at their peers and from the get go, they have they're positioning their brand very strongly. They're building hubs, content hubs, and not just the apps. They're all going to build fast, enable hubs from the get go, understanding that they wanna have more skin in the game than just licensing the US. And then, giving it over to to the tvb the TV manufacturer. What have you seen, within that [00:14:00] ecosystem in terms of those companies making those content plays? So what's your number one, why do they do this besides what I've just said, but, and what have you seen? That is new, exciting in that space from from these guys, from the TBOS guys? Or you can, yeah. Even a manufacturer, an LG and a Samsung would Alan Wolk: be a, yeah, I think that, for the lgs, so the, for the manufacturers that what they're doing is easy in that it's a way to bring down the cost of the tv, right? Yeah. So the margins on a TV set are very slim. So Roku had come up with the ideas, oh, you can have a second revenue stream that's gonna make Wall Street, it's actually gonna confuse the hell out of Wall Street 'cause they never quite got wait. They have advertising and they sell a device, but. But with an lg, Samsung, Visio, all the different com, so many different companies have, vda Yeah. Is Hisense, it's, it is an alternate revenue stream that helps bring down the cost of the tv. [00:15:00] It's something that is very much desired by the, by the different, media companies. So if you're Netflix, if you are Warner Brothers and you can promote, you can pay LG to promote your shows on their home screen, that's a win. If you can have a little ad. Display, even a display ad and things like that. So that's a win. And then for their fast services, it's just, it's a way to create stickiness. Yeah. It's a, and again, it's a way, get them in the ad game, use their data. They all have a lot of a CR data, from, so that, that's their thing. Amazon's got, its Amazon's its own thing. So yeah, just to. I'm sure most of you know this just 'cause you've, it's happened to you but LA But around this time last year, Amazon did this little slate of hand. It's okay, everybody's now on the ad supported version. If you want the ad free, you've gotta pay more. And I think a lot of people are like the only thing I watch on here is sports which has ads anyway, i'll just stick with the ad free. It was, they had a very low ad load and they still do, Amazon [00:16:00] knows everything. The joke is always Google knows who you wanna be face, Amazon knows who you really are, right? Yeah. So Google knows what you're searching for, but Amazon knows exactly what you buy. And so the amount of data they have is pretty incredible. And I think for everybody, the notion of fast is, for consumers is a big thing. It's Hey, I want to turn on the TV and just have something to watch. Yeah. It's not that lean in, it's that lean back. I'm making dinner, I just wanna watch, have something, some noise in the background if you can say, Hey, here's a pretty well done free service. And especially if you're outside the us, a free service in your language, even better. Marion Ranchet: And one reason why I think a lot of these guys are launching their own hubs is for most of them, one of the biggest app on the platform is YouTube. Alan Wolk: Yeah. Marion Ranchet: And YouTube is a bit of a free rider, right? It's not like they're sharing their very generous with their partners when it comes to distribution. And that means that you have a big portion of [00:17:00] that. Time spent that you can't really monetize. It's being monetized by by YouTube. And so I, I saw that kind of firsthand when I was at Roku. That's when, we started, building up and beefing up the Roku channel. And it now is, I think, a top three app, within the cool ecosystem. And so when you have Netflix. Number one or two, YouTube again, number one or two, and you're number three, you are in a really good spot. So that's where I don't understand why Wall Street does not get that. I think if KU did not have that business, they wouldn't have much to show for, right? If you look at their earnings earnings report, this is where the money is coming from, the platform revenues, so anything else is catching your attention. There's a promise on CTV that it's, targeted, personalized, contextual, you know that it is amazing. Is it truly delivering on that promise in your opinion? Alan Wolk: It's starting to, there's still a lot of problems. There's a lot of [00:18:00] problems with the data, right? Yeah. So in other words, it's not so much from the TV guy, the OEM side, but from the brand side that they don't have great data for, for their audiences. A lot of them are relying on first party data sets that are out of date. There's a company called Truth Set. That has analyzed them and found that, maybe 30% of the people are still living where they're supposed to be living or fall into the category that they, that they're supposed to fall into. Some of it is based on things like loyalty programs that are several years out of date or things people just signed up for one time. So that's been really tough. We're starting to see a number of other plays come in though that, that might make this better. So whether it's contextual targeting Yep. Or emotional engagement. There's a company called Media Probe that measures that. There's a, but we just I'll give a little plug tv. Rev just did a big report on contextual targeting and how that works. And contextual is everything from the genre to what's happening on the screen. [00:19:00] To the emotion of the scene. Know there's a funny scene, you have a funny ad, you wanna put a funny, it in a comedy scene. So all of that stuff, I think is gonna make it a little bit easier and a little bit, and make the ad experience better. But right now the biggest thing holding it back is, the. Data and then also the measurement problem. Yeah. That there's no easy way to measure from platform to platform. There's a lot of grading, our own homework. There's also a lot of gaps. Like I just wrote about this the other day that like, yeah, white Lotus has been, doing gang, ha having the best ratings ever, but their ratings are still nothing compared to a lot of the shows. Yeah. On linear. And the difference is that on linear. All those viewers are ad supported, whereas on Max, I would guess maybe 20%, 25% of the people watching the White Lotus are seeing ads and everybody else is on ad free. So you still have a lot of ad free viewing on streaming and they, they have to figure that out that. The faster, not ga Yeah. Faster [00:20:00] are good for extending reach, but not for getting that initial reach. Marion Ranchet: Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah we did an episode on on measurement a few weeks back. And I think there's a challenge in number one, agreeing right on key definition across the industry then choosing, one, two, the right three companies who can become this source of truth across the board. And honestly, if there's one thing where I can't follow, it's the amount of partnerships, between a hook who, and a and, video and the, all of these guys. I feel like there's always something new within that ecosystem. A new partnership. Alan Wolk: Yeah. Marion Ranchet: And from a distance, I'm not a buyer. That I feel it's getting more complicated by the day. So there's a question also is it easy to buy CTV inventory from, what people are telling you? Alan Wolk: No, it's not. That's their problem is that, I. It used to be, especially if you compare it to [00:21:00] where linear was, that linear was just like, you made a chart, you bought, then, networking cable and broadcast and Prime, it was very easy. It was a sort of thing. And AI could do. And AI could buy nineties, TV nineties, linear tv. Yeah. Like pretty easily. So now they've got all these, all these. Different services, they're all measured differently. They're all using different, there's, currency is even a term that, like what is, different people have different meanings for it. Yeah. Then you then throwing, which is a whole other ball of wax that Google keeps like raising their hand and going, no, YouTube, we're actually tv. See how many people watch it on tv. And the buyers are like, but skip ads. Skip ads. Like how do we measure that? What do we do? And so it's all over, it's really, it's a mess. And that's what they need to figure out is just an easy, simple way. And they've been working on this seemingly forever. And a lot of it, and I harp on this a lot, is they don't cooperate with each other. No. They all think they're gonna win. They all think I'm gonna be the company that wins. [00:22:00] And they don't realize that, you know that your enemies are not the other media companies. It's Google. It's Amazon. Yeah. It's Meta Mac. Microsoft. It's not, cb it's not Paramount is not the enemy of Comcast. Just, yeah, you compete in some level, but if you, all Disney, Warner, if you all like work together, you could actually have something and take those guys on. 'cause that's, that's their sweet spot is they know content and yeah, they had to make good shows. Marion Ranchet: But How about Universal Ads, which was announced at cs, right? Isn't it? An attempt to, make it easier amongst peers. To your point, I think Hokus part of this maybe Disney and others, Alan Wolk: yeah, it's a it's a start. It's just, not everybody is on board yet. Yeah. And it's still unclear how it's all gonna work and, and all that. That, that's the problem with all of it. They all keep basically reinventing the wheel. There's a bunch of industry councils. There's open ap, there's the jic, it's just come together. Not everybody belongs to the jic and, and [00:23:00] all that. And that's really what it's gonna be. And there's a thought that sort of in the way that, 30 years ago with digital, some big companies like Procter and Gamble, I think, and I forget who else said, okay, if you guys want us to run ads. You need to come up with standards and make it, standard banner sizes, how you're measuring them, and then we'll buy ads from you. There's a thought that at some point that's gonna have to happen again too. Like just a bunch of big S and go, okay, you need to pick a measurement and how long? What's a view? And then give that to us. And we don't really care how you do it, but just pick something. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Interesting. So would be coming from the buyer yeah. Themselves. Interesting. One thing that was very, hot last year was shoppable tv. Where are we at? I feel like I'm not hearing much about it. Any cool things being developed? Any initial results? I'm thinking, this year maybe we're gonna see Vio, Walmart coming as one, so what's cooking in [00:24:00] that space? Alan Wolk: I think it's a slow process. I think it's, with everything in this industry takes longer than you think it would. Yeah. But I think that shoppable is the sort of thing that, you need to slowly bring people into it. It's not gonna be the sort of thing that they store. The other thing I think a lot of the, I think that, the media companies haven't been thinking through is this notion that TV is not a solo activity. So if I'm scrolling through Instagram and I see something like the person who's. Who I'm, stop, who I'm pausing the video for is me. So if I wanna buy it, but if I'm sitting with other people and watching something, I'm not gonna go, oh, could y'all just wait while I buy these sunglasses? Like it'll only take a few minutes. So I think there's a lot, that needs to be. Figure it out. And I think it's as basic as just having a, an app, some sort of app on the TV on the OS where you can click, buy later or whatever and that kind of thing. And then just getting people used to it, it's, it's a behavior that's gonna take some time to develop. I mean we're, we're seeing, companies like [00:25:00] Curve are doing some innovative. Stuff where they're able to mash their catalog. But yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna, take a while. The other piece too, and I know that say LG has announced, for instance, that they're gonna have something similar to an basically an LG wallet. I forgot what exactly they're calling it, but basically, okay, if I wanna buy something. Off of my LGTV, my data will, my info will be stored in there and I don't have to reenter my credit card, my shipping address every time. Marion Ranchet: I would say about time. Yeah. Because if you think of it, the TV OS guys, and for those listening to us, the difference being, it's that software layer, those guys came in right away with. A payment solution, may that be whole copay, Google Pay, Amazon, et cetera. And two things. That data is first party data, and you can, this is actionable data and very valuable data that you get about people using your TVs. Number two, it's making the process of consuming, content. May [00:26:00] that be buying something transactional, getting a subscription, pay per view, whatever, and later shoppable much easier. And right now I feel like the. The legacy or the historical TV manufacturers they were more focused on hardware, less on software, and therefore they have millions of TVs without yes, without an account, without payment details, without all of this. So I think it's fascinating. It's great that LG is putting some effort into that. The team came on the pod and they spoke to that, they were amongst the one who were the most pushy about shoppable, actually, yes. Samsung has been pretty quiet on this. So let's see what comes out of that. Okay, so we're coming to an end. We're about to, we were saying it at the top when we were prepping. We're about to go traveling the world for, events, et cetera. Is there anything that you are, expecting to come out within the CTV landscape in the next few months? Anything you've been privy to, under the, [00:27:00] anything you wanna share about what's gonna happen in the next few months? Or are we gonna be more in, quiet time people are head down, getting stuff done. Alan Wolk: So I'm very curious to see what possible is gonna be about the possible show in Miami. 'cause suddenly, it seems to have just blown up this year. And I'm curious if anything, any announcements are gonna happen about that or if it's just gonna be a lot of people in Miami going, God, it starts to be in the warm weather. And. And then what happens during the upfronts? 'cause there's, there's all the un let's, let's be real. There's all this uncertainty in the world since last week and how does that impact the upfronts? What is this, what are people thinking? How does it in, all of these companies are international, so how does it impact the industry, this whole tariff thing. And that's really the thing that I'm keeping my eye, my eyes on over the next couple months. Marion Ranchet: I'm thinking for the upfront, super keen to see what comes out of Amazon, because as you were saying, they will be, a year in their, ad supported [00:28:00] venture. So it's gonna be interesting to see if, they have anything interesting, any new, formats, et cetera. And a bit of data to, for us to chew on. And I think those who will be noisy about CTV advertising, it's YouTube. Alan Wolk: Yes. Yeah, very much. They're gonna, because that's been the whole thing is, they wanna push YouTube is tv. Yeah. And it's not for the, it is not for you and me or the, it's okay, media buyers. Think of us as tv. Put us in your TV plans. Yeah. Brands put us in your TV plans and the TV's pushing back and all. I also suspect we'll hear a lot about this at the Stream TV show. Yeah. In Denver, where we will both be in June. Yeah. Marion Ranchet: That's gonna be awesome. Do you wanna share, because I think you have a specific CTV event happening during Yes. We have something the Alan Wolk: first day called it kicks off the show. It's called The Future of Stream Genomics. It's a. Two and a half hours of programming about actually a lot of the topics we discussed today. We're gonna be going over [00:29:00] contextual, fast, local tv, and everything that's going on. It's almost like a, if you go to this and you go to the rest of the show, you're like, okay, this sort of prime me for the rest of the show. Yeah. Marion Ranchet: I'm up to speed. Okay, cool. I'll be there. Count me in. Awesome. Very good. Alan, thank you so much. It's been it's been amazing. Very much of a discussion on the topic. We both love. You are gonna have to come back maybe next time you can come back and have a chat with Evan or we'll have, a chat, the three of us. Alan Wolk: The three of us. Yeah. Open up the relationship there, Marion Ranchet: yeah. Yeah. Absolutely Love it. So guys you are gonna see this episode in a few weeks time. We're gonna push it on TV rev. TV rev can be fair. That tv rev.com on LinkedIn? Yes. Alan Wolk: Yes. And e either or under me on LinkedIn we put it, we push it everywhere. Marion Ranchet: Cool. And my newsletter is streaming Made Easy. I'll be pushing this episode as well. Thank you everyone for being with us this week. Tell us, how much you loved having Mayo and Allen instead of [00:30:00] Mayo and Ivan, good change. Vote for us. Vote Allen. Yes, Alan Wolk: Yes. I'll even actually, I won't shave my head. No, Marion Ranchet: but No, that's not gonna work, unfortunately. Even I cannot make it work. I don't know how he does it. But Alan, thank you so much for everything. Alan Wolk: Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Cheers. I.