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WHO RAPED &MURDERED 3 GIRLS SCOUTS AT CAMP? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Summer camp, the great outdoors,
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Speaker 1: swimming into lake, campfire, cooking, late nights with flashlights and tents,
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Speaker 1: friends old and new. But three little girls were robbed
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Speaker 1: of that and so much more. Three girls just eight,
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Speaker 1: nine and ten, strangled, dead, dumped in sleeping bags, their
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Speaker 1: lives cut short by a real life monster or monsters.
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
0:42
Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation. In series X
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Speaker 1: one eleven, we follow the exclusive new Fox Nation series
0:48
Speaker 1: The Girls Scout and Murders all week on Crime Stories.
0:52
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. These woods in northeastern Oklahoma
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Speaker 1: are the site of one of the war crimes imaginable.
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Speaker 1: Two busloads of Girl Scouts left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott,
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Speaker 1: a girl Scout retreat located on the Cherokee Reservation some
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Speaker 1: fifty miles away. Among the girls were ten year old
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Speaker 1: Denise Milner, nine year old Michelle Gouse an eight year
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Speaker 1: old Laurie Farmer. What happened next is unthinkable. Three young
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Speaker 1: girls being sexually assaulted, murdered. There are children's names you
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Speaker 1: always remember, Laurie and Dennisa, Michelle, They're there and they're
1:42
Speaker 1: never going to go away. Joining me right now. Sheriff
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Speaker 1: Weaver's son, Herb Weaver, Herb, thank you so much for
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Speaker 1: being with us. You were actually at the crime scene, correct,
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Speaker 1: What if anything did you observe the morning after that happened.
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Speaker 1: I just happened to be at a cast station getting
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Speaker 1: some coffee and one of my dad's deputies pulled in
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Speaker 1: the fuel up and he said there was something going
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Speaker 1: on down at the girl scout camp. My dad had
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Speaker 1: summoned all of them to come down there. He did
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Speaker 1: not know what was going on, so I just jumped
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Speaker 1: in his cruiser with him and went down there and
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Speaker 1: came upon those little girls. And to the best of
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Speaker 1: my memory, when I got there, there was probably sixteen
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Speaker 1: eighteen people there, my dad's deputies, my dad, OHP was there.
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Speaker 1: OSBI had not showed up yet, but we were visiting
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Speaker 1: yesterday about a strange footprint that didn't match mister Hart.
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Speaker 1: And I can see very well how that could have happened,
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Speaker 1: because it was pretty chaotic, as you can well imagine.
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Speaker 1: It's something I wish I never would have been involved.
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Speaker 1: Why did you say that, her, Well, just because just
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Speaker 1: the scene itself Nancy, that's something I don't want anybody
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Speaker 1: ever has to see. What did you see? Well, three
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Speaker 1: little girls murdered, just it's just senseless. Were the bodies
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Speaker 1: dragged out of the tent? They were outside the tent
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Speaker 1: my recollection they were in three separate locations, but Faith
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Speaker 1: told me that they were all three together. But it's
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Speaker 1: been forty five years ago. So when you say they
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Speaker 1: were outside of the tent, were they in their sleeping bags? Yes,
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Speaker 1: it sounds like someone dragged them all to the general
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Speaker 1: same location to get rid of the bodies, which would
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Speaker 1: be unusual if someone were simply on foot. How can
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Speaker 1: you get rid of three bodies if you're on foot
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Speaker 1: as opposed to a vehicle. When you say the scene
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Speaker 1: was chaotic, Herbweaver, what do you mean by that, Well,
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Speaker 1: there is several people around, and I mean this is
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Speaker 1: something that you don't when you get up and go
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Speaker 1: to work in the morning, you don't expect to see
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Speaker 1: it seemed like this. So I mean, how do you
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Speaker 1: prepare yourself or something like that. I don't think that
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Speaker 1: you do or that you can. When you say you
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Speaker 1: would not wish that site on anyone, it's I'm trying
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Speaker 1: to take in three little girls, dead in their sleeping bags,
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Speaker 1: dragged out of the tent. Where exactly were they? From memory, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: it seems to me like they were probably I'm going
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Speaker 1: to say, thirty yards away from the tent. Wow. When
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Speaker 1: you looked at the girls, were they obviously dead or
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Speaker 1: did they look like they were sleeping? No, they were dead.
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Speaker 1: How did you know instinctively that they were dead? Well,
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Speaker 1: number one, they weren't breathing, so you would assume they
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Speaker 1: were dead. Were they in odd positions they wouldn't be
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Speaker 1: in if they were alive. Yes, it was a terrible scene.
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Speaker 1: Did the girls families know yet? You know, Nancy, I
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Speaker 1: cannot answer that. I wouldn't want that job, Herb. No, No, madam.
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Speaker 1: I want to say when I got there, it probably
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Speaker 1: around eight o'clock, something like something of that nature. Seventy
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Speaker 1: thirty or eight in the morning. Yes, ma'am. So the
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Speaker 1: girls had not been dead for very long. In fact,
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Speaker 1: it's my understanding when they were first discovered, at least
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Speaker 1: one of their bodies was still warm. I can't answer that.
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Speaker 1: I don't know about that. How has this haunted you
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Speaker 1: over these years, Herb, Well, I've got at the time
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Speaker 1: I had one more girl. I think I think Danielle
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Speaker 1: was two or three. So it because of those events.
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Speaker 1: It changed our lives, the way we raised our kids.
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Speaker 1: You know, crime has changed my wife too, the way
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Speaker 1: I raised my twins and you know her. But Weaver
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Speaker 1: when they went to Scout camp for the first time,
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Speaker 1: I went to and made my husband go. We went
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Speaker 1: three weeks of training to be volunteers. Yeah, because of
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Speaker 1: this case. I just couldn't let them go. Guys with
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Speaker 1: me is Sheriff Weaver's son, Herb, who went to this
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Speaker 1: crime scene seeing the girl's body still there just a
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Speaker 1: couple of hours after they were all three raped and murdered. Today,
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Speaker 1: two unlikely sources confess long kept family secrets. It begins
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Speaker 1: when Fate Phillips gets a call from Kimberly Baker, the
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Speaker 1: niece of suspect Jeane Hart. He was charged and then
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Speaker 1: acquitted of all three child rapes and murders. Take a
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Speaker 1: listen to this. As far as we knew, Schriff Weaver
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Speaker 1: had railroaded the investigation, had planet evidence, had done all
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Speaker 1: these things to win the case Ince Gene for whatever reason,
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Speaker 1: I don't know. As I started to learn a lot
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Speaker 1: more about him. I learned that Jean wasn't this football
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Speaker 1: star angel personality that I had been taught. A narrative
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Speaker 1: that I was given about him was not correct. He
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Speaker 1: was a dangerous individual. He was somebody, according to close
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Speaker 1: family members, who they did not trust. They were scared
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Speaker 1: of him. That information that I had from my family
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Speaker 1: growing up, and then seeing the new pieces of the
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Speaker 1: puzzles I got to put together, I realized that they
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Speaker 1: were right to be fearful. They were right to look
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Speaker 1: against this person as as a dangerous individual because things
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Speaker 1: that he had done, had confessed to, had been convicted of.
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Speaker 1: Tell the story of somebody who was able to full
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Speaker 1: and make fearful to his siblings and his family. You
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Speaker 1: are hearing the voice of Kimberly Baker. Kimberly Baker is
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Speaker 1: the niece of Jeane Hart. Now curious to you, herb Weaver.
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Speaker 1: When you hear claims that Sheriff Weaver had railroaded Jeane
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Speaker 1: Hart and even planet evidence, do you believe that? No,
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Speaker 1: not at all. I don't believe that. I know that
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Speaker 1: this whole case completely consume my father, as it should
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Speaker 1: ask But I was raised by an honest man and
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Speaker 1: in my opinion, there was no planet evidence. I'll tell
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Speaker 1: you how how consumed he was when they captured mister Hart.
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Speaker 1: I asked one of the OSBI agents, who has since passed,
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Speaker 1: I said, why didn't you call my dad to go
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Speaker 1: with you to apprehend me? And he told me he said,
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Speaker 1: because we knew that he would kill Jean Hart, which
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Speaker 1: should tell you how consumed he was by the whole affair.
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Speaker 1: I hear you. It took me a while prosecuting violent
10:22
Speaker 1: felonies day in day out, until I got to the
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Speaker 1: point where I understood why law enforcement would just as
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Speaker 1: soon kill the defendant that could do something like this,
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Speaker 1: And there's always a chance the defendant will get out
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Speaker 1: and strike again on another little eight year old girl.
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Speaker 1: Not condoning it. I just understand it. Time stories with me.
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Speaker 1: It'sy Grace and joining me right now, two very special guests.
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Speaker 1: You heard the voice of Jean Heart's niece, Kimberly Baker.
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Speaker 1: She is joining us and you can find her at
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Speaker 1: kim Baker artwork dot com and on Insta along with me.
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Speaker 1: Baker the great niece of Jean Heart. She is a
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Speaker 1: grad student of Oklahoma State University and a grief outreach
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Speaker 1: worker at University Counseling Services to both of the Baker guests. Welcome, Kimberly.
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Speaker 1: What do you mean by Sheriff Weaver planet evidence? I
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Speaker 1: think that for the most part, growing up, that was
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Speaker 1: sort of implied by my family that there were rumors
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Speaker 1: that Sheriff Weaver was very embarrassed that Heart had escaped
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Speaker 1: and while under Weaver's direction of those institutions, and that
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Speaker 1: he had a sort of vendetta against Heart, and that
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Speaker 1: one of a likely you know, seeing that, well, they
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Speaker 1: planted evidence. Okay, so do you know of any evidence
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Speaker 1: that was planted? You said implied rumors. Yes, there were
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Speaker 1: implied rumors. There were rumors that there was a glove
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Speaker 1: found at the crime scene that was owned by my
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Speaker 1: uncle Jean, and that that was planted there at the scene. Okay,
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Speaker 1: hold on, let's address that. Faith Phillips joining me, Cherokee,
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Speaker 1: screenwriter and author of Now I Lay Me Down? Who
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Speaker 1: really reignited the Girl Scout Martyrs case? Faith? Was there
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Speaker 1: a glove at the same The answer to that specific
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Speaker 1: question is a no. But there's a lot of other information, Okay,
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Speaker 1: a lot of other information. Okay, let's just take it
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Speaker 1: one by one. So Kimberly Baker, you stay and this
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Speaker 1: is gene Hart's niece suspecting the murders, tried and acquitted.
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Speaker 1: You say rumors evidence was planted and that it was implied.
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Speaker 1: So there was no glove at the crime scene, so
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Speaker 1: that wasn't planet. Is there any other item that you
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Speaker 1: can think of recall remember that you believe was planted. No,
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Speaker 1: unfortunately no. So the whole thing about planning evidence being
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Speaker 1: a glove, that's not true. Okay, maybe Meg knows something
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Speaker 1: about this, Meg Baker, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: It's been stated that Sheriff Weaver planted evidence. What evidence
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Speaker 1: could that be other than the glove which doesn't exist?
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Speaker 1: So from what I recall from like reading several books
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Speaker 1: and several I'm watching a lot of two documentary and
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Speaker 1: you know, just some information of that, like implied rumors.
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Speaker 1: I do recall there being like a compact like a
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Speaker 1: mirror and something some kind of shaving thing that being
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Speaker 1: like rumored to have been planted, right, a mirror. I'm
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Speaker 1: not sure if it was like a mirror or like
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Speaker 1: a compact mirror or like some glasses as well. Okay,
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Speaker 1: let's address that and my mind is completely open. I
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Speaker 1: don't have a dog in this fight. I don't have
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Speaker 1: any skin in the game. I just want to know
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Speaker 1: the truth. Okay, Faith Phillips, So what can you tell
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Speaker 1: me about the mirror and the contacts or glasses? Okay,
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Speaker 1: So here's the situation with the mirror and the corn
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Speaker 1: cob pipe. Both of those items were in a trunk
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Speaker 1: with one of the campers at the scene. So then
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Speaker 1: we have the OSBI apprehending Jane Hart at the Pigeonhouse
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Speaker 1: after you'd been on the run for nine months, and
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Speaker 1: at that time, they executed a search and they didn't
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Speaker 1: produce anything that they felt tied Jean Heart to the
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Speaker 1: scene at the Pigeon House. Then months later they go
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Speaker 1: back and execute a second search for the Pigeon House
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Speaker 1: and in that house they find a corn cob pipe
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Speaker 1: and a mirror. So this is extremely complicated. Nancy Grace, Well,
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Speaker 1: let me ask you a question right off the bat.
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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the crime scene. Yes, evidence planted at
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Speaker 1: the crime scene. You're referring to a pipe that was
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Speaker 1: found at the Pigeon House where Heart was ultimately apprehended.
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Speaker 1: So that's not the crime scene. That's right, the reason
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Speaker 1: why at the crime scene. We also have photographs, these
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Speaker 1: two photographs that are at the cave, and there's testimony
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Speaker 1: in the Prelimbs later says that those photographs had been
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Speaker 1: seen in the Sheriff's office after Jeane Hart had escaped
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Speaker 1: from prison. So these are the things that have never
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Speaker 1: been explained. Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, I'm
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Speaker 1: asking you about evidence planted at the crime scene. Absolutely
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Speaker 1: no evidence planted at the crime scene. Okay, that was okay,
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Speaker 1: Just so you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm a JD,
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Speaker 1: not a DDS. I don't know how to pull teeth.
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Speaker 1: So we're right now dealing with the accusation against Sheriff
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Speaker 1: Weaver that evidence was planted by him at the Girls
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Speaker 1: Scout murder crime scene. That would be around the tent
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Speaker 1: and where the bodies were found. Let me just go
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Speaker 1: it out. There is anybody on this panel know of
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Speaker 1: evidence planted at the crime scene by Sheriff Weaver or
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Speaker 1: anyone else, not me? Okay, good, good to know. So
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Speaker 1: now Faith, you're telling us about other evidence photos that
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Speaker 1: were found and Sheriff Weaver's office of the cave slash
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Speaker 1: Roots seller where Jane Hart was hiding out. Is that correct?
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Speaker 1: That's correct. There's later there's testimony in the pre lens
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Speaker 1: that say that those photographs were seen in the sheriff's desk.
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Speaker 1: And what would be wrong with that? He's investigating the case.
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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't there be photos of where the purpose apprehended
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Speaker 1: the alleged purp. If this is true, this testimony that
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Speaker 1: those photographs were in the sheriff's desk, then that would
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Speaker 1: indicate that gene Hart would have had to have broken
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Speaker 1: back into the sheriff's office to get those photographs to
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Speaker 1: put them in the cave that's used to tie him
17:38
Speaker 1: to the crime scene. Where were the photos allegedly found
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Speaker 1: to start with? The photo after the murders? The photographs
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Speaker 1: are found in this root seller that everybody refers to
17:48
Speaker 1: as a cave. And why would thus not have been
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Speaker 1: in the sheriff's office to start with? After the search
17:53
Speaker 1: the allegation the testimony indicates. Okay, so this testimony is
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Speaker 1: from an employee of Sheriff Weaver, and he says that
18:01
Speaker 1: he saw those photographs in the sheriff's desk after gene
18:06
Speaker 1: Hart had escaped from prison. Right you understand, So the
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Speaker 1: photographs are found at this cave and this root seller.
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Speaker 1: So if that testimony is true that the photographs were
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Speaker 1: in the sheriff's disk, then gene Hart would have had
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Speaker 1: to break back into the sheriff's office get those photos
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Speaker 1: and take them to the cave. Interesting, interesting accusation, guys,
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear more. Take a listen. Throughout
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Speaker 1: my life, there were occasional discussions amongst the adults that
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Speaker 1: I would overhear. I recognized a name from the list
18:41
Speaker 1: of names that you've shared with me as being a
18:44
Speaker 1: member of a family that we were close with in
18:47
Speaker 1: our neighborhood. I had interactions with this person as a child.
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Speaker 1: I knew this person, and it was also a person
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Speaker 1: that another member of my family had made a statement
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Speaker 1: about at some point in my life as being had
19:04
Speaker 1: having some involvement or knowing something. And then as I
19:12
Speaker 1: got older, a family member that I trust shared that
19:17
Speaker 1: name with me as being involved in a private conversation
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Speaker 1: that we had, as well as two other names, which
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Speaker 1: are the list you're hearing. Kimberly Baker describing conversations she
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Speaker 1: would hear she was growing up about other potential suspects.
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Speaker 1: Who are they Kimberly, I don't feel very comfortable naming
19:40
Speaker 1: those names since they never came up, as far as
19:43
Speaker 1: I understand, in an official capacity. Okay, wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: So you are telling me you think that there are
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Speaker 1: other suspects that murdered and rape three little girls that
19:52
Speaker 1: you won't give the names, not in an unofficial capacity. Okay,
19:56
Speaker 1: well hold on. Maybe Fate Phillips is familiar with what
19:59
Speaker 1: you're saying. What about a fight. Well, this is this
20:02
Speaker 1: has been the issue consistently, is that we want if
20:06
Speaker 1: there are suspects who are associated with the case, we
20:10
Speaker 1: would like for them to have a fair trial. Of course,
20:14
Speaker 1: we want to exhaust all leads, and there is an
20:17
Speaker 1: active investigation at this time, and so we don't want
20:20
Speaker 1: to repeat what happened in nineteen seventy nine when that
20:22
Speaker 1: trial happened. We want a fair trial as guaranteed by
20:26
Speaker 1: the constitution. My question, do you fight this? Do you
20:29
Speaker 1: know who she's talking about? Yes, I absolutely know exactly.
20:32
Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with these names. I've been hearing them
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Speaker 1: over and over again for the last two years. Are
20:37
Speaker 1: they being in I mean, are you sharing them with us?
20:39
Speaker 1: Are we going to all still being the dark about
20:42
Speaker 1: who may have martyrd three little girls and write them too.
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Speaker 1: I'm happy to tell you the name of Buddy Bristol,
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Speaker 1: who's he talked about that and he apparently confessed that's right,
20:52
Speaker 1: and there's next. I'm not gonna I think I would
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Speaker 1: undermine the investigation at this point, that which is active
20:59
Speaker 1: if I name these people in public. Okay, Nathan Clark
21:03
Speaker 1: joining me, high profile lawyer out of Tulsa. You can
21:07
Speaker 1: find him at Rhodes Okla dot com with Rhodes hieronymous Nathan.
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Speaker 1: This is exactly why the law is constructed after hundreds
21:18
Speaker 1: of years of jurisprudence that if the defense has a
21:23
Speaker 1: particular alternate theory, like if there's another suspect they don't
21:28
Speaker 1: think their client did it, they're not allowed to just
21:31
Speaker 1: throw things out in Courtla. I heard when I was
21:33
Speaker 1: growing up, So somebody did it, but I can't tell
21:36
Speaker 1: you the name, and I can't don't know anything else
21:38
Speaker 1: about it. That cannot come into court. A phantom cannot
21:43
Speaker 1: be brought in as a defense. There has to be
21:46
Speaker 1: a name, like Buddy Bristol is a very strong suspect,
21:50
Speaker 1: I think. But as long as people won't give names.
21:54
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why that type of speculation is not
21:57
Speaker 1: allowed in court. Well, think that there's a fascinating component
22:03
Speaker 1: to all this that involves this change in the investigation. Yes,
22:07
Speaker 1: for all these years we've had the Oklahoma State Bureau
22:10
Speaker 1: of Investigation with having primary investigative jurisdiction. With a recent
22:16
Speaker 1: US Supreme Court case McGirt versus Oklahoma, that investigation has
22:21
Speaker 1: shifted as to the Native suspects to the Cherokee Marshals
22:27
Speaker 1: and a federal Bureau of Investigation. That shift is leading
22:32
Speaker 1: to new outcomes. That shift is leading to new information
22:36
Speaker 1: that's currently actively being investigated, and I think that's what's
22:41
Speaker 1: trying to be protected, is to give that process a
22:44
Speaker 1: real chance to proceed, even after all these years and
22:48
Speaker 1: after this knee processes implies as anybody come forward with
22:52
Speaker 1: another name, I know there are other people who are
22:55
Speaker 1: actively being investigated by the Investigative fact Department. Was that you, Yes,
23:00
Speaker 1: there are four names that have come up in the investigation,
23:04
Speaker 1: and all four have been turned over to the authorities
23:06
Speaker 1: in a current an active investigation, And so I feel
23:10
Speaker 1: like it's my duty to make sure that I don't
23:12
Speaker 1: interfere with that investigation. In any way. So there are
23:15
Speaker 1: four names. Kimberly, Baker and Meg Baker may be right
23:22
Speaker 1: that someone else was involved. I don't have any reason
23:26
Speaker 1: to believe that Sheriff Weaver planted evidence, but those two
23:32
Speaker 1: are not mutual exclusive. They can both be true. Sheriff
23:36
Speaker 1: Weaver may not have planted evidence because there's nothing to
23:40
Speaker 1: suggest that he did, and gene Hart could be innocent.
23:45
Speaker 1: So both of those things can be true at the
23:49
Speaker 1: same time. And I also heard something that I found
23:52
Speaker 1: really interesting that a motive for Sheriff we were to
23:57
Speaker 1: have planet evidence is that he was in charge of
24:00
Speaker 1: the prisons or jails from which Heart escaped. Is that
24:06
Speaker 1: true faith, was he in charge of the jail. Yes,
24:11
Speaker 1: Sheriff Weaver was running the prison at that time White
24:15
Speaker 1: the prison or the county jail. Sheriff Weaver was operating
24:19
Speaker 1: the county jail in May's County at the time Jean
24:22
Speaker 1: Heart escaped. Twice. Herb did Heart escape from the county
24:27
Speaker 1: jail or the penitentiary county jail. He was brought from
24:30
Speaker 1: the penitentiary back to the county jail, got it to
24:33
Speaker 1: be tried for some other fans that really hard to believe.
24:37
Speaker 1: That your dad would plant evidence because of inmate escape.
24:41
Speaker 1: But I've certainly been surprised before about so many things
24:46
Speaker 1: in criminal in criminal law, listen to this. I always
24:49
Speaker 1: had like this feeling that he had done it, or
24:53
Speaker 1: that he was involved at least I know that there
24:59
Speaker 1: was like something. But Kim and I talked about on
25:01
Speaker 1: the phone about like some alternative hypotheses. I know that
25:06
Speaker 1: my friend in high school, her dad even had said,
25:09
Speaker 1: like there's some other person that had seen like two
25:12
Speaker 1: other people plus Gene walking down the road like the
25:15
Speaker 1: day of the crime. My jaw kind of dropped when
25:21
Speaker 1: Megan mentioned hearing about the men walking down the road
25:24
Speaker 1: the morning of the crime. This all tracks with what
25:28
Speaker 1: former sheriff Paul Smith shared with me, and I'm trying
25:31
Speaker 1: to get my mind around this. Could it be possible
25:35
Speaker 1: that everything we believe about this case is wrong? And
25:40
Speaker 1: who is willing to go to the mat to seek
25:43
Speaker 1: the truth. One thing that concerns me, Doctor Scott A
25:47
Speaker 1: jousts with me. Forensic psychologists out in Minnesota thirty two
25:51
Speaker 1: years experience addressing matters just like this author of When
25:56
Speaker 1: I Love You turns violent and physical abuses sex offenders.
26:01
Speaker 1: You can find them at Forensic Consultation dot org. Doctor Johnson,
26:05
Speaker 1: how many times have you heard it said, oh Jay
26:07
Speaker 1: didn't do it, please stop, or oj Son did it
26:12
Speaker 1: with him, or somebody else did it, or there's a
26:17
Speaker 1: police conspiracy. No, there was no police conspiracy. You think
26:22
Speaker 1: those cops could have kept their yap shut this long
26:24
Speaker 1: that I have a multimillion dollar book deal if thera
26:27
Speaker 1: betic conspiracy and Simpson did not act with anyone else,
26:31
Speaker 1: his son didn't do it, he did it. I mean,
26:35
Speaker 1: I've heard so many conspiracy theories. What is it with
26:38
Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories? Well, I think everyone's got their five
26:41
Speaker 1: cents to add to it, and what makes sense to
26:44
Speaker 1: someone who's not really educated about investigation, ETCeteras. They kind
26:49
Speaker 1: of run with wealth in their head, what makes sense
26:52
Speaker 1: or what they want to believe or what they want
26:54
Speaker 1: to believe, and then they look at a crime and
26:57
Speaker 1: say one person couldn't have done this alone, when in fact,
27:00
Speaker 1: they very well could do it well, especially if they're
27:03
Speaker 1: jacked up on something like crick, cocaine or PCB. Now
27:07
Speaker 1: we're talking about potentially true allegations that someone else either
27:14
Speaker 1: helped Heart or was completely responsible for these murders. Remember,
27:19
Speaker 1: Heart was acquitted at trial. Does that mean he didn't
27:23
Speaker 1: do it? No? Does that mean someone helped him do it? Maybe?
27:28
Speaker 1: Does that mean he's innocent? Maybe? Now you're hearing from
27:32
Speaker 1: Meg Baker and Kim Baker, the niece and great niece
27:36
Speaker 1: of the suspect, jene Hart. Remember acquitted. Listen to this.
27:41
Speaker 1: I think that the lead up to the crime, you know,
27:45
Speaker 1: was orchestrated by my uncle. I think that he enjoyed
27:51
Speaker 1: being able to control others to do his bidding in
27:54
Speaker 1: this respect, So the incitement of fear, through the stalking,
27:59
Speaker 1: through believing of different effigies and clues and things like that.
28:06
Speaker 1: I have heard through some family members that the people
28:11
Speaker 1: other than my uncle bat acted in this case were
28:16
Speaker 1: totally out of their minds, on massive like for several days,
28:23
Speaker 1: out of their minds, and that they went to the
28:27
Speaker 1: camp that Jane did most of the acting. He controlled
28:33
Speaker 1: them to get there. You know, you may think this
28:35
Speaker 1: is far fetched, and it does sound far fetched that
28:38
Speaker 1: gene Hart planned the whole thing and somebody else did
28:40
Speaker 1: it sounds crazy to me, but think about it. That's
28:43
Speaker 1: exactly what Charles Manson did. He whipped up his followers
28:47
Speaker 1: got them all high on drugs, and then they went
28:51
Speaker 1: and committed horrible, horrible mass murder while he laughed in glee.
29:00
Speaker 1: Is what happened. It's in my experienced dealing with similar crimes,
29:04
Speaker 1: not one of this magnitude, but similar. It's not uncommon
29:08
Speaker 1: there's multiple people involved, and even looking at the details
29:12
Speaker 1: of the crime scene. Again, I'm not a police officer
29:14
Speaker 1: or investigator, but certainly to have subdued three people, Oh,
29:21
Speaker 1: come on, they're eight years old and they're a sleep
29:23
Speaker 1: How hard is that. I could take my son in
29:26
Speaker 1: a sleeping bag and drag him out of the tent
29:28
Speaker 1: and put him in the pond and he wouldn't uti
29:29
Speaker 1: he got wet. All I'm saying is there may have
29:32
Speaker 1: been others involved, and it's not uncommon that there's multiple people,
29:36
Speaker 1: especially like you said, they're doing drugs or things like that.
29:40
Speaker 1: Especially this whole thing started as a robbing spree. They're
29:45
Speaker 1: gonna all creep around and get into counselors tents and
29:48
Speaker 1: find things. I could see more than one person being involved.
29:52
Speaker 1: It's called a robbing crew. That happens every day. But
29:55
Speaker 1: three people agreeing to rape and murder three little girls
29:59
Speaker 1: ages eight ten. That's a little it's a little tougher
30:02
Speaker 1: pill to swallow. Time stories with Nancy Grace. I want
30:20
Speaker 1: to go back to Kim and Meg Baker, Kimberly Baker
30:23
Speaker 1: and Meg Baker, Kim the niece of murder suspect Jean Hart,
30:26
Speaker 1: Meg the great niece, and they're telling what some would
30:30
Speaker 1: think it's a fantastical story that multiple people were involved
30:34
Speaker 1: in this. It has happened before. And I am not
30:37
Speaker 1: poo pooing the idea, Baker ladies, I'm not. I think
30:42
Speaker 1: it's a stretch logistically, But when you think of a
30:46
Speaker 1: robbing crew going in, that's not hard for me to imagine,
30:50
Speaker 1: like two or three guys getting together, we're gonna go
30:52
Speaker 1: rob everybody while they're asleep. But three people intending to
30:56
Speaker 1: go in and rape and murder and keeping quiet about it,
30:59
Speaker 1: that's a whole other animal. What did you what did
31:03
Speaker 1: you mean in your statement, Meg, that you have always
31:08
Speaker 1: heard that other people were involved at anything other than
31:12
Speaker 1: gossip or raymer lead you to the conclusion that your
31:16
Speaker 1: great uncle is innocent. Um, Well, I would say that
31:19
Speaker 1: it was more just like when I was trying to
31:23
Speaker 1: understand or conceptualize how this kind of crime could happen.
31:28
Speaker 1: I was thinking about, like logistically kind of similar to
31:32
Speaker 1: like what we've been talking about. In my viewpoint, it
31:37
Speaker 1: seems like that would be really difficult to manage three
31:42
Speaker 1: girls in keeping them quiet and so. And also just
31:47
Speaker 1: like from some conversations with my own mother, who is
31:52
Speaker 1: the person who originally pulled me to the side and
31:54
Speaker 1: told me that our family was involved in this kind
31:59
Speaker 1: of crime, it was kind of like essentially that it
32:05
Speaker 1: was just like my logical thinking. Okay, so not any
32:08
Speaker 1: firm evidence, but other than my friends conversation, yeah, okay,
32:12
Speaker 1: what about it, Kimberly Baker, the idea that they purps
32:17
Speaker 1: or hopped up on acid days ahead of time, that
32:20
Speaker 1: your uncle was the puppeteer. I find that theory to
32:24
Speaker 1: have some validity if it feels correct to me based
32:29
Speaker 1: on my observations and my own research, my own you know, journaling.
32:36
Speaker 1: When I think about what my family has told me
32:38
Speaker 1: over the years about this person, it seems like it
32:42
Speaker 1: could be possible, possible have been, okay, to be the puppeteer.
32:47
Speaker 1: And of course Nathan Clark, partner at Rhodes Hieronymous in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Nathan.
32:54
Speaker 1: Of course you and I know as trial lawyers that
32:57
Speaker 1: it's beyond a reasonable death out. That's the standard. Not possible,
33:03
Speaker 1: not probable, not what the conclusion you came to in
33:07
Speaker 1: your journaling. Everything must be founded in fact correct, and
33:12
Speaker 1: that's the challenge with a forty five year old investigation. Man,
33:15
Speaker 1: you're not kidding, Nathan Clark. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
33:19
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott, Is it possible that one
33:24
Speaker 1: person did this? Is it more probable that three people
33:27
Speaker 1: did this? Quickly? Yeah? I think that it's very difficult
33:31
Speaker 1: to say that one person would have necessarily have done
33:34
Speaker 1: this Where you're controlling these three little girls, and so
33:37
Speaker 1: the idea is that you find them not too far
33:41
Speaker 1: away from the tent. It seems as though that this
33:44
Speaker 1: was an incomplete attempt to remove them from the location.
33:48
Speaker 1: I agree goes back to Buddy Brustol that fate told
33:51
Speaker 1: us about right who would plan to put them in
33:53
Speaker 1: this VW and dumped the car in the water, and
33:57
Speaker 1: that car coincidentally disappeared from all registry or all, no
34:03
Speaker 1: one has ever seen it again. I hear you that
34:06
Speaker 1: disposal issue, Joe Scott Morgan right once again dragging the
34:10
Speaker 1: three bodies out, and then suddenly, why would you drag
34:13
Speaker 1: the bodies out and leave them in plain view if
34:15
Speaker 1: you were not going to go dispose of them. That's
34:18
Speaker 1: a theory that rears its ugly head when Faith Phillips
34:23
Speaker 1: told us about another potential suspect, Buddy Bristol. Speaking of
34:26
Speaker 1: Faith Phillips, listen, I just got out of my meeting
34:30
Speaker 1: with the Cherokee Nation Marshals, and I feel heard They
34:33
Speaker 1: listened to the whole story from day one all the
34:37
Speaker 1: way through day three eighty four, whatever today is, and
34:42
Speaker 1: I can tell that they believed what I said. They
34:46
Speaker 1: looked through the evidence. They were a little bit overwhelmed,
34:49
Speaker 1: I think because of the volume of evidence, But I
34:52
Speaker 1: told them that's okay. I've been overwhelmed by myself. Now
34:58
Speaker 1: that the marshals are in possession of everything and McGirt
35:02
Speaker 1: has determined that they do have jurisdiction, they've promised to
35:06
Speaker 1: go through it all and determine if they will open
35:08
Speaker 1: the investigation, which goes back to what Nathan Clark told us,
35:13
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Tulsa, that under new laws,
35:17
Speaker 1: the Cherokee Nation is investigating this. So Faith Phillips finally
35:22
Speaker 1: gets a call that Cherokee Marshalls are creating a task
35:25
Speaker 1: force dedicated to the Girls Scout and murder investigation. What
35:30
Speaker 1: does that mean to you, Faith Phillips. Are the potential
35:34
Speaker 1: for suspects still alive? Do they still live in and
35:37
Speaker 1: around Locust Grove? Yes, we still have the suspects living
35:41
Speaker 1: in and around Locust Grove in this area. And that's
35:44
Speaker 1: really what drove me from the beginning. I said, you know,
35:47
Speaker 1: if there's even a chance that someone who was there
35:51
Speaker 1: that night but saw what happened was involved in whatever way,
35:55
Speaker 1: that they're still in my community. And that had been
35:58
Speaker 1: kind of the undercurrent all of this time. You don't
36:01
Speaker 1: stir up this case. They're these rumors that we keep
36:04
Speaker 1: talking about that keep swirling around. And that's the worst
36:07
Speaker 1: thing you can do is tell me that I can't
36:09
Speaker 1: do something. Fate Phillips really reignited this investigation. Was Jeane
36:14
Speaker 1: Hart guilty? He was acquitted? What about these four potential suspects?
36:20
Speaker 1: Fate Phillips is living there knowing these people are walking
36:25
Speaker 1: and breathing, still alive. Did they take part in the
36:30
Speaker 1: murder and rape of three little girls and why are
36:33
Speaker 1: they still walking amongst us? We follow the very latest
36:37
Speaker 1: developments in the brand new Fox Station series The Girl
36:40
Speaker 1: Scout Murders here at Crime Stories all week tomorrow. Why
36:44
Speaker 1: has it taken nearly fifty years to find the truth?
36:48
Speaker 1: Plus would there be a different outcome in solving the
36:51
Speaker 1: Girl Scout Murders? Now in twenty twenty two, we wait
36:56
Speaker 1: as justice and faults Nancy Grace crimes story signing not
37:00
Speaker 1: he advised