Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.249 'Facebook Groups For Massage Therapists: Helpful or Hateful?' - Part 2 Panel Debate

Transcript

Ep.249 'Facebook Groups For Massage Therapists: Helpful or Hateful?' - Part 2 Panel Debate · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
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back into soft tissue therapy.
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Music.
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Hey people, how are you doing? Welcome to the Sports Therapy Association videocast and podcast.
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It's episode 249 and my name is Matt Phillips, host of the show,
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creativerunchecklife.com and as always this episode is
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being recorded live at eight o'clock on a tuesday
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on the sports therapy association youtube channel and
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on facebook so if you are listening to the podcast then
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you are and you fancy joining us live and that's what you need to do head along
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to youtube or facebook at eight o'clock on a tuesday because if you do join
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us live for example and bring up some comments on the screen imi tester is with
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us here evening i'll be listening in on my way home from work as usual until
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i lose signal fantastic glass is definitely half empty in that one there,
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We've got Angela L. Thompson, who's joined us. Good evening, all.
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Nikki Mansfield is here as well. It says, evening, all, watching from my kitchen,
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still making dinner. Fantastic.
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It's lovely seeing you all, and thank you very much, as always.
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If I don't thank you enough already, then thank you for joining us live.
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It really makes a big difference, particularly tonight, because tonight's episode
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is going to be a continuation, part two of the debate we are having about Facebook
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groups, massage therapists in particular.
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Are they helpful or hateful?
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Before I get into that, I'd just like to say thank you to last week's guest, as always.
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If you missed it, then as always, it's available on YouTube.
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If you want to watch the video, or you can catch it up on all popular podcast apps.
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And it was Sophie Gover of The Run Doctor.co.uk. So I'll say that a bit slower,
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The Run Doctor.co.uk, who joined me in the studio to discuss her journey in
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setting up a gait analysis service for her running clients, and how our past
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episode 146, in which I kind of took the seat, and Gary Benson,
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the founder of the STA, interviewed me,
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how listening to that helped her along with her journey.
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It was recorded back in 2023. And I'm pleased to say that much of what was said
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back then hasn't really changed.
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And it's a fascinating insight into how Sophie has set up her marketing and
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her goal setting and her business.
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And I would recommend, particularly if you work with runners or you want to
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work with runners, then do have a listen or a watch of that.
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And if you are interested, a little plug here for myself, because I'm told I
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don't plug myself enough.
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If you are interested in setting up your own gate analysis service, then
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my cpd course i've got one starting in october okay analysis for runners modern
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approach it's two days online as always and then one day this time in scotland
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in calendar so if you're interested in that or indeed suggesting any location
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then just go to runchecklive.com or to the stschool.co.uk.
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Right then, back to tonight. So like I say, we're going to have part two of
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a fascinating debate that's really topical at the moment.
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Part one was about three or four weeks ago, in which we listened to some really honest,
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and we thank our panel for sharing some horrible experiences that particularly
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newer therapists, less experienced therapists have had when they've gone into
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support groups for soft tissue therapists.
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They shared experiences of being kind of shot down pretty quickly,
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made to feel a bit stupid, even though it wasn't the intention of the commenter,
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I'm sure in many of the cases, they did feel like that.
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And for a lot of them, it was almost like them putting the plug on their business
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and thinking, what's the point?
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What we're doing now in part two is obviously the panel tonight has listened
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to that. And hopefully a lot of you listeners have listened to it.
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And we're going to have a chat about it, recognizing it.
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And most importantly, what can we do about it? How can we stop it?
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Because I don't think anyone's intention is for any therapist who has chosen
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this very altruistic kind of way of living their life for not much money,
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but helping others to give up their career.
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So, but we, people are feeling like this. So that's what the chat is going to be at tonight.
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Most importantly, if you have joined us live and do please share experiences,
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bring some questions for our guests that you're still coming through the lounge
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door, which is lovely. Sir Glenn Murphy, MBE is this evening.
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Oh, he's here as well. Hey, Sir Glenn, thank you very much for coming.
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So yeah, do give, bring those questions in.
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Right. That's it for now. So I think without further ado, We shall start bringing
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up the panel in no particular order, and then we'll introduce them.
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Music.
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Think we're all here thanks so much everybody for joining us the same
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as last time I think what we'll do is just give you maybe just a
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minute to introduce yourself most importantly just say where you are in
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the world whether it's the UK or otherwise and yeah what your role is in the
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industry so no particular can we start off with maybe Cecily hello good evening
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my name is Cecily I am a former beauty therapist and now sports massage therapist
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I live on the eastern edge of Bob Minmore when it's very,
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very wild and surrounded by lots of mine shafts.
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And I primarily work from home. There you go. Marvellous. Thank you very much,
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Cecily Hislop. Hannah Tabram.
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Hi, I'm Hannah Tabram. I'm a sports massage therapist. I live down in Norfolk,
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right in the east of England.
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Mostly I also work from home, but right now I don't because my home is a building
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site. I've seen thrassled.
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Once again, in fact, yeah, people who are familiar with Hannah's voice or the
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vision, I was going to say.
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Yes, the vision we've got here on our street because you gave us a wonderful
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introduction into your house when you converted the garden, wasn't it,
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into a house? So looking forward to being able to work there again.
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It was great. It was a great episode that people still talk about.
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So thank you very much for us. Welcome back, Hannah. Thank you very much.
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Stevie Barr, you'd be so kind.
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Good evening, folks. My name is Mr. Stephen Barr and I am a massage and movement
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therapist. I'm based up in Glasgow.
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Thank you very much, Steve, or Mr. Stephen Barr. Thank you very much.
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I'm used to calling you that. It's very professional. And last but by no means least, Mr. Gary Benson.
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Hi, Matt. Hi, everybody. I'm Gary. I founded the STA quite a number of years
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ago with the intention of it being a nice safe space and a small club for people
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who didn't want to be in a big club.
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I live in rural Lincolnshire where we sometimes fluctuate between electricity
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and not and sometimes between Wi-Fi and not.
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So hopefully we'll last for the whole duration.
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Marvellous there we go so a wonderfully honest and diverse
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panel as always here on the sports therapy association podcast thanks
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for joining us everybody um just a get well message to
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tristan attenborough who's going to be on the panel as well tonight who unfortunately
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due to covid yes it's still out and around so watch out people owner of move
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massage pro in northamptonshire can't be here unfortunately a great educator
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and we wish him well he will be speaking at the sta southwest regional conference
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um in association with the hands
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on hub and the st school on september the 20th and the 21st in Exmouth.
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Tickets available at thestschool.co.uk.
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But yeah, get real soon. Tristan, right then. Thanks very much for joining us
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in the panel, everybody, as I say.
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I thought briefly, time's going to go so quick tonight.
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So I thought we'd get straight into it and just have a recognition of if you
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did manage to listen to last week, so catch even a little bit of it,
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what was your initial impression of seeing these five therapists kind
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of sharing some pretty horrible experiences and what
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are you feeling when you listen to it anybody can answer we'll go in preference
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of who wants to jump in first i wasn't surprised by it matt i i see these comments
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all of the time we've discussed before that that social media is is extremely
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polarized you'll only attract comments from those who love what you're doing
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or hate what you're doing.
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I thought it was really sad it was really sad and i could definitely although
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i haven't had those sorts of experiences myself I know what it feels like to
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feel like social media is almost,
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you know it's making it's you feel like you're being undermined almost even
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though you're not even though that's not someone's intention and I just thought
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that was really it was really sad.
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Thank you very much Hannah Tappum I thought they were pretty brave oh Stevie go on Stevie,
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I thought they were pretty brave by showing up for a start and then relaying
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their experiences which obviously, for some of them, were quite hurtful.
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Especially the one, if I remember correctly, where somebody then looked up their
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own business and started having a go at them. That was awful.
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You know, where are we if that's what we've come to?
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So pretty brave of them to get stuck in like that, I thought.
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That's a good word, brave. Yeah, it was really cool with the panel.
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And if you haven't listened to that episode yet, then don't worry, don't stop this one.
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We're going to have loads of stuff on this one for you to listen to.
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But do go back and listen to part one of the debate. Really worth listening to. and Cecily.
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To be fair, I don't think I can add anything to what anybody else has said. It,
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I did feel actually quite shocked by it, particularly, I guess Steve just said,
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the girl who had somebody stalk her on a business page and criticize her.
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I think you can forget that times that people can do that. I mean.
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I've been lucky in my experiences. I've never had that with anything on my business page.
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So perhaps we shouldn't be so naive to think that it's not happening,
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but when it does, it is surprising and it isn't acceptable.
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And i can't imagine pardon my language
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how crappy she must have felt yeah and i
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think to do that anonymously as well is really cowardly yeah there
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are some times where you where you wander isn't there but yeah
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that was a good example of where things shouldn't be happening
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so i'm sure we'll we will go into this in deeper
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detail because i know we could talk about even
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just that for an hour i've put down some strategic points which
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were kind of picked up in that episode so we're addressing them because all
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of you here who joined us have got a wealth of experience in the industry and
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everybody here including myself all started without much
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knowledge like they were saying in the panel we've been through it all and we and you
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know we've all suffered and still suffered imposter syndrome and we
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all question ourselves we all still get up in the morning thinking what have I
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got to help these people we all get flummoxed completely with certain
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clients and stuff those who are still treating so we've all
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been there so hopefully we'll be able to provide not just
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empathy but also come up some solutions the first thing
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I wanted to give to you panel dear panel is one
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of the common things that came up was the idea
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of or the the topic point of what can massage what massage can do for people
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indeed i think what led to that person suffering from somebody jumping onto
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a business page and saying basically this is false this is false it's not evidence-based
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you're lying to your clients and this is terrible which is way over the top it all boiled down to.
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A lot of misconceptions out there and stuff, which we all talked about what
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massage can do for people.
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So I thought just to start off, what are some of these misconceptions?
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And we need to say these a bit gently because there might be listeners here
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who've just come off a course and they've probably learned it unless they've
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been on a forward thinking kind of modern course.
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They've probably learned some of these misconceptions about what massage can do.
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So I want to have a little think whilst I'm just finishing off the question and think of one,
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or think of a lot because somebody might grab yours and then let us
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know why it's erroneous information and
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where the harm potential harm in saying these
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things or believing these things can be i'll start
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with stevie because he's probably got five on his hand already because you're
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well clued up and i know i say that not not not with any bad intent because
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you're in the scottish therapist facebook group and you see this all the time
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and you have to deal with people who are probably saying these things so yeah
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what's one that particularly you think is common and why is it a problem.
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I think the notion or
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idea that we can change things
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underneath the skin when all we can do is
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touch the skin and we're talking about
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tissues here not the nervous system we
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appreciate that by touching the skin we're
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involving the nervous system but the idea
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that we can move fascia Lenten muscles
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Fix scars You know scar tissue
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Adhesions You know these sorts of things Where we
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know We know we just don't have either The physical power in our hands To do
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it Like fascia for example Or it's just not either physiologically Or logically
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possible To do the things that we used to think That we could do.
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If it was so easy to do these things we would never have survived as a species we just wouldn't,
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And I think that's still a hard thing to get past people because the information
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is still being taught out there that, you know, we can do these things.
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And it's also being supported by people who either won't look or just don't feel the need to look.
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And they are happy to stick with the narrative that they have.
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Okay. And we will make sure the links in the resources in the show notes,
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there's links to pieces on this.
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What is the harm of a therapist telling clients that they can break down scar
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tissue or linten a muscle or release kind of muscles and things?
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I think it's the fixer thing where we are used to having things fixed.
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And then if we have a therapist who says that they can do these things,
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that, you know, I can fix that.
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I can do this and I can fix that. But, you know, we operate on a word-of-mouth
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business quite a lot of the time.
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And so the word-of-mouth then spreads around, it'll go to therapist A because he can fix things.
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And so then we then perpetuate our own myth, if you like, by not using a more
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up-to-date narrative that would help us as well as the clients that we see.
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So what word would you prefer, or not you prefer,
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but what word do you think would be a healthier more kind of try not
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to say evidence-based because that's coming up later on but a better
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word to use rather than I'm going to fix you what would you say to a client
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I would be more inclined to think of me working with them rather than me doing
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something to them I need their buying and their input and and their response I feel like,
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Rather than it coming from me to them It
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has to come both to each other Otherwise you'll get that situation Where you
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can do the same thing to five clients One after the other And you won't get
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the same response from them all Because something's missing between Maybe you
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and client number three It just didn't happen.
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So the idea that we can work with a client to meet their goal rather than do
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something to them to fix a problem, if you like, I guess, is the way I would like to put it.
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Okay, brilliant. Right, well, there's enough on there to talk in that round
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now. We're not going to. We're just going to drop that in there.
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And I think it was done in a nice, gentle way. I don't think there was anything.
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It may come as a shock to some people because you probably said to a client
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yesterday, yeah, I'm going to fix you. Maybe you've got it on your website.
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It doesn't mean close your business up. It doesn't mean throw everything out.
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It just means basically you're going to change the way you approach your dialogue
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with the client to say working with them because they're responsible because
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they're going to have to take responsibility of doing their exercises of sleeping,
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of eating better and so on and so on rather than just lying back and thinking
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that you're straightening their spine out or putting their posture perfect or
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something. So yeah, very succinct. Thank you, Mr. Stephen Barr.
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We'll go around the corner. Gary, anything in your mind about what massage does
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that often can cause problems on social media when people say it?
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Well, I think what we've got to do, Matt, we've got to go behind that.
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We've got to go back and understand that these therapists have,
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in good faith, booked onto a course that's been advertised by our industry, by our awarding bodies.
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And at episode 168 in October 2023, we spoke about the changing pace of qualifications
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who or what can we trust now generally speaking and I'm not saying courses are good or bad.
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Generally speaking, what you'll find is that when I'm speaking to between 30
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and 40 members a week and prospective members, they talk about Googling,
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you know, Ofqual approved or Ofqual regulated.
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And unfortunately, that is no longer the badge of honour that it once was.
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And we spoke about the pros and cons of both the awarding organisation qualifications
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and of in-house training provision with in-house certification.
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And and what we're finding at the moment is
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those small independent schools who
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can't commit compete commercially because they
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can't get funding you know the advanced learner loans
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that people can access they haven't got the marketing budgets
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but generally speaking those in-house training
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providers are more evidence informed than the
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sort of seven-year academic cycle of the awarding organization
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so we've got to understand that first
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and i think there is a there is a an
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onus on the on the person booking onto courses
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to do their due diligence you know i spoke to somebody yesterday
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who'd who'd spent several thousand pounds on
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a level five diploma in sports therapy and
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within six months of working in multidiscipline clinic had had her whole practice
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turned on its head because she was using terminology like breaking down scar
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tissue and stretching muscle fibers and releasing fascia and you know i think
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if anybody's ever asked me my title.
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Over the past 20 odd years is i've
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always tried to to infer that
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i'm the facilitator of change rather than the
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fixer of problems because as steve
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said it's it's the negotiation with the client it's
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the education it's the listening skills it's the validation of
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their past experiences and their pain of their
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presenting condition it's about how can we
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make somebody more confident and touching them nicely whilst we're doing a little
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bit of educating and motivating and encouraging and in some cases counseling
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you know that's what we're facilitating change rather than fixing problems but
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I still see it every day on social media that you know if you want fixing come and see me.
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Yeah, it's very true. And I think, I mean, that's something which we've all,
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people who are commenting need to bear in mind that people have spent a lot
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of money. And it was raised in part one, wasn't it?
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Where some people said, I've just spent 1500 or 2000 pound and now I'm being
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told what you've learned.
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Sometimes word for word is rubbish or is, I hate saying this word, but it's bullshit.
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That's my little word, which I don't like at all, but that's used.
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So I think as commenters now, being devil's advocate a little bit,
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we've got to refrain from using words like what you've paid for is sadly rubbish or bullshit.
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You've got to think of it as the same as telling your patient that their knee
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is buggered or, you know, or they've got no stability in their spine. It's important.
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What we're finding now is there are a number of training providers who do deliver
19:03
the awarding organisation qualification.
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And they're now realizing or they have
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been realizing for some time that a lot
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of what is being taught or delivered is
19:15
out of date and so what they what they're doing and
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and i'm pleased that they are doing it but
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in itself it creates a problem because if if you're if you're
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teaching somebody a qualification and you're
19:27
you're you're moving away from the syllabus for example
19:30
the scope of practice your insurability
19:34
is based on the overarching qualification so if you're
19:37
adding in extra bits that you might
19:40
think are valuable and people are
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introducing them there is a danger that they
19:46
are uninsurable because they're not within the overarching qualification syllabus
19:50
so it's a very thin line and and a lot of my work is spent talking talking to
19:56
training providers about how they can facilitate a somewhat better learning
20:01
experience for their delegates.
20:04
Yeah, it is tricky. And if you're a listener and you're a tutor on a course
20:08
and you're thinking, I use these words and I'm teaching students this, again, don't worry.
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You're probably an amazing tutor because again, you've devoted your life to teaching.
20:17
All we're hoping they're going to do, not just in this program,
20:20
but all we try and do through the Sports Therapy Association podcast and through
20:24
the coffee chats we do and all the other ways of communicating with our members
20:28
is just gently explaining how tweaking a few things can really help.
20:32
Because at the end of the day if you're a teacher you want your students
20:35
to go on and become great therapists and help loads of people and have
20:37
a successful business and at the moment with the outdated ideas which
20:41
do need tweaking you see therapists thinking
20:45
they're doing everything great but in reality 50% of their clients are doing
20:49
well and the other 50% don't come back and this is why so many therapists burn
20:52
out when they don't get returning clients or they only have a few clients who
20:56
they see once a week every kind of week for a year so we're not saying chuck
21:00
everything out at all we're just tweaking it slightly.
21:03
Hannah and Cecily, sorry to leave you down there for so long.
21:05
I just want to know, is there something which you think is commonly mentioned
21:08
in posts, which can create a confrontation with regards to what massage can
21:12
do for people? And how do you think we should rephrase it?
21:15
I mean, I think I agree with what Gary was saying. A lot of it is people have
21:20
done these courses in good faith.
21:21
People are not setting out to kind of mislead or to tell their clients the wrong thing.
21:28
I know that when I qualified, which to be fair, is not all that long ago,
21:31
I was definitely taught things like you can lengthen a muscle.
21:34
I was taught that it's a sports massage, it's meant to hurt.
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You know, things like this, which are, I now know differently, but I didn't know that.
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And that didn't make, that wasn't my fault that I didn't know that.
21:45
And people shouldn't feel that they are to blame.
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If you've done a course in good faith and you've been given this information,
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that's the information you've been given.
21:53
You can't blame someone for knowing that. There's no point in getting cross
21:55
with somebody because the difference between you and them is perhaps just time
21:58
and a little bit more reading.
22:01
But yeah, yeah, I think it's supposed to hurt. It's not supposed to hurt.
22:06
Oh Hannah that's what you've been told it's a good one it's a good one I remember doing my level four,
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and I was stripping some chaps IT
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band that was the thing to do you know proper yeah
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really and I made this poor man cry
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yeah absolutely cry with the pain and the
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teacher said yeah that's fine that's what it's meant to you someone did
22:27
that to me when I was oh someone did that
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same thing to me when I was doing my level three and it made me feel sick the
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next day I had to go and have a lie down i had bruises all the way down my leg
22:35
that's a good one so yeah so so yeah we'll move on this but basically if you
22:42
have done a course and they were talking about lengthening a muscle and you've
22:45
got that basic thing of doing a manual therapy technique and then assess,
22:48
reassess there's no point in a wasted stroke all these kind of
22:51
things which are taught on traditional courses you know
22:55
if you it's like the same you could do any
22:57
pretty much anything to anybody if they believe it's going to make a difference and
23:01
you've relaxed the nervous system down you could do anything to them and then measure
23:04
their legs they'll be the same length or look at their shoulders they'll be the same level
23:07
but there's a there's a follow-on effect which really you should be shown on
23:10
a course in that just because their shoulders are level doesn't mean that the
23:14
pain in the neck is necessarily going to go because symmetry doesn't equals
23:17
kind of no pain and stuff like that so but don't throw it out like we say if
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you have been taught yeah you're supposed to put up with the pain doesn't mean
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you have to stop doing everything it's just.
23:26
Slowly fade out those things which are maybe provoking the patient's nervous
23:30
system and making them hurt because it's not really probably going to be a good
23:34
thing even if they believe it it's going to hurt more next week and the techniques
23:37
you've been taught are probably good techniques exactly just using a slightly
23:41
different way that's a good point right wonderful,
23:45
it's kind of linked in as well another thing which comes up in forms which was mentioned in part two.
23:50
Was mentioned in part one was the reply
23:53
often is you need to be more evidence-based and you've
23:56
got to change the narrative and it's almost like the feedback i
23:59
got was these were kind of sound bites which mean a lot to us
24:02
for example if someone says be more evidence informed or be evidence-based we
24:05
can even distinguish evidence informed from evidence and based so it makes sense
24:09
to us but for the therapists who just come out from a traditional course sadly
24:14
tragically they haven't been introduced to evidence probably because yeah it
24:18
would be a problem during the course but,
24:20
so it's almost as if we should change these if we are educators we shouldn't
24:24
jump in with that you need to be evidence-informed.
24:26
Have you found a problem with this? Can you think of an alternative to jumping
24:29
in and saying, well, that's not evidence-based?
24:31
Anybody? I think it's about the language. And I read some posts from people who I know.
24:39
And sometimes they use language that I might not.
24:42
So what I'm always doing, and for anybody who reads my posts,
24:47
I always post in my personal name on Facebook.
24:51
But I say, if you want to discuss this privately and
24:55
have an independent view please send a
24:58
direct message to my work profile just for transparency
25:01
so people know who i am and and the sort
25:04
of angle that i'm coming from but it's it's it's
25:07
difficult and i know we're going to be talking about anonymous posts later on
25:10
so i'll leave my comment about that but but yeah sometimes people should you
25:16
know if they are frustrated by something then write a reply but please don't
25:21
send it until the next day until you've slept on it because they are anxiety invoking sometimes.
25:27
That's always a good one, isn't it? In life in general. Yeah,
25:29
write it under your pillow and read it the next morning.
25:33
I think if you're going to,
25:35
post something up that you feel that you have to have an input to.
25:43
There's no point in doing it unless you give the person somewhere to go.
25:47
So there's no point in saying, oh, you need to be evidence-informed,
25:50
you need to be evidence-based, you need to change your narrative.
25:53
If you don't then follow that up by saying a good place to go for you to see
25:58
where you can pick this up is A, B, and C.
26:02
Go and look at these areas here look at what they have to say and why they're
26:08
saying it and then think about it think about how they have reached the conclusions
26:15
or the views that they have and if it still,
26:20
means that you're going to stick to your guns a little bit at least you've taken
26:24
the time to look at somebody else's viewpoint but I think the newer therapists,
26:30
I don't think they would stick to their guns They will go and they'll absorb it.
26:34
But you've got to give them the opportunity to see that there are people out
26:39
there, there are places that you can go, there are things that you can read
26:43
that will settle them down.
26:46
That's maybe not the phrase I'm thinking of, but it will make them just take
26:52
a step back and then think about the whole process.
26:55
Because at the end of the day, that's what we have to do. We have to think about
27:00
what it is that we're trying to achieve.
27:03
If we're working with somebody's body, how on earth do we manage that by just touching them?
27:10
That's the thing. So if you don't give them somewhere else to go,
27:13
then you're doing them a disservice, a big disservice, because you're not giving
27:18
them even half the story. You're just giving them a little taster and leaving them to it.
27:21
That's not fair. If I could just come in on that, instead of suggesting go to
27:26
A, B, and C, suggests that they go to the sg and the a and let's go there's the sound right.
27:35
I mean i think
27:37
you have to recognize as well that i i agree i
27:40
think it's really important to try and point people in the right direction because not
27:43
everyone has the same capacity in terms
27:46
of time or just mental bandwidth to go out there and say well now i will google
27:50
this and i will read this research and this and this and this and this you know
27:54
you don't know what someone has going on behind their screen then you only see
27:58
a snippet on social media and it's normally quite a carefully curated snippet
28:02
and so to just assume that you can say well you should be evidence-based,
28:06
and that's fine and everyone's going to go yes i should be evidence-based so
28:10
i know exactly what that means and now i will go and read this thing you can't
28:14
do that that's just not a helpful thing to do and i think at the end of the
28:16
day we do most of us we do want to help people well you know you You don't want
28:22
to jump up and down on someone and make them feel terrible.
28:25
So pointing someone in the right direction is really important.
28:28
And if you don't have time to do that, don't jump in. Don't comment because somebody else will.
28:34
We don't have to correct every time someone is wrong on the internet.
28:38
True. I kind of want to almost rephrase being evidence-based as being open-minded.
28:45
And I think that's a lot where it comes from.
28:48
I mean, Matt, we've discussed before my beauty therapy training,
28:53
which was 1994, properly old school.
28:56
You know this is you know the flushing toxins the moving lymph the stretching muscles and,
29:04
although that wasn't necessarily changed when i was doing my sports courses
29:07
sports muscles courses again from following the sda and other sources it's like
29:13
well okay that's not what i'm doing and it has been a bit of a battle to kind
29:18
of take what i've learned and realize it can be different.
29:23
I mean, I'm not one for looking at research articles. I have the attention span of a five-year-old.
29:28
I think, what was it, Alan Maria wrote one about 18 months ago.
29:31
It's still on my laptop on my desktop to be read because I look at it going,
29:35
yeah, I'm going to do that.
29:36
Oh, no, I can't be doing reading it.
29:39
So I think that's what people have got. It's just an open mind.
29:43
And hopefully, I mean, Hannah's point is great, but unless if your comment is
29:48
going to be actually really sarcastic and you can't back it up, just don't.
29:52
But at the same time if people are asking the questions maybe they
29:56
need to look at the answers and accept the answers you don't have to agree
29:59
with it but and again
30:02
like Steve said there are other avenues in there but having that open
30:05
mind is the basis for being evidence-based or evidence informed and that's the
30:10
most difficult thing because again what you're taught you want to believe in
30:15
what your tutors teach you what the curriculum says on your paperwork and as
30:21
we all know, that isn't necessarily accurate or up to date.
30:24
So it's just going, you know, okay, this may not necessarily be right,
30:29
but that's okay that it's not right.
30:31
And again, putting out these feelers, looking at what other people are pointing
30:36
to, say, well, actually, look at this or do the CPD. And that's probably the key.
30:42
I like that. Yeah, that's true. It's so difficult, isn't it,
30:45
with words because the right phrase, you're never going to know for the person
30:51
who's asked you because you don't know that person.
30:53
You could say, you know, you need to be a bit more open-minded to one person
30:57
and they'll take that on board. The other person is going to go straight away.
31:00
Oh, so now you're saying I'm closed-minded, you know, and that's the problem
31:03
with social media, isn't it? Until you know that person and you spend some time with them.
31:06
I think Tristan mentioned this or somebody did when
31:09
we were chatting before is a lot of the time it's going
31:12
to be impossible to give a person who is a bit stressed out
31:15
and trying to find an answer an answer that's not going to annoy them because
31:17
on social media they're going to read it in a certain way or you're going to
31:21
write it away which doesn't appeal to them so we're kind of there's a little
31:24
bit of doom in in using social media groups as a question and answer place anyway
31:29
do you think should we looking at an alternative if somebody has got a problem
31:32
with their business or they want to check this.
31:34
Is the social kind of support group the best place to kind of hang out their
31:38
question what i what i think matt is that that these people who respond in language that i don't,
31:46
necessarily support i i encourage
31:49
them to think of the the original poster whether it be the anonymous poster
31:53
or as their client now if your client said something to you in clinic that you
31:58
didn't necessarily agree with you wouldn't shut them down you know in one sentence
32:03
you'd have a you know, an open and honest discussion with them.
32:07
And as Hannah said, you'd signpost
32:09
them somewhere else. So it's a metaphor for our clinical practice.
32:12
You know, if we get somebody in who we're not understanding and,
32:16
you know, we might not be the therapist for them at this time,
32:18
but what we do is we say, okay, well, I'm not the person to help you now,
32:22
but I think I know who I can refer you on to.
32:25
And if everybody used that mentality when they're answering social media,
32:29
I think it would be a lot better place.
32:32
That's really good. That was something that was raised in part one is like,
32:36
one of the questions by onlookers was, this person's acting really kind of quite
32:40
violently now, communicating quite violently.
32:42
Is that how they treat their patients? That's more experienced.
32:45
So yeah, good answer. I mean, I think it's worth, so before I did this job, I was a lobbyist.
32:51
So it was my job to try and persuade people to agree with me, essentially.
32:54
And I did that for nearly 10 years. And I can count on the fingers of one hand,
32:58
the number of times I actually argued with anyone.
33:01
I debated with people a lot. I discussed things with people a lot,
33:03
and I didn't always agree with people but once you get
33:06
to the point of being an argument you're not going to change anyone's
33:09
mind and those times those few times i had an argument with
33:12
someone even though each time it was someone who came for me spoiling for a
33:16
fight i still count those as a failure because i didn't talk that person around
33:19
because i couldn't once you bring that kind of energy into a discussion you've
33:24
already lost them it's a good point yeah yeah i also think that the if you're in a group,
33:31
in a forum that we are, and the SDA community is brilliant.
33:36
I mean, some of the support that you get in there is top class. It really is.
33:42
When you move out of that into some of the forums, the people who are giving
33:48
the answers have to accept responsibility for what they're doing.
33:54
They've got to accept that you can't just chuck in evidence-informed or evidence-based
33:59
and leave it to that. You've got to give something.
34:02
You can't just shut people down and say, what you're saying is rubbish or whatever.
34:06
You can't do that either.
34:08
You've got to accept responsibility for the answers that you give.
34:12
And part of it, or a big part of it that I see, is that we are being irresponsible.
34:19
We mentioned this before, Matt, that people are giving out advice on a matter
34:26
Where they haven't seen the client.
34:29
Haven't spoken to the client And haven't touched the client They know absolutely
34:35
nothing about that person And yet they have accepted that it is almost their right.
34:43
To go in and say, right, you need to do this. And I think that's where the forums
34:49
have the biggest problem.
34:50
Not the people asking the questions because they don't know what they don't know.
34:54
But the people answering them are not accepting the responsibility that they
34:59
have as experienced therapists one way or the other.
35:03
They should be accepting the fact that you shouldn't be giving out advice online,
35:08
about a person you've never met, never spoken to, and definitely not touched.
35:12
And I think that's where when you get that,
35:17
clash if you like of a conversation that starts off perfectly fine,
35:22
somebody asks a question, they don't know what they don't know and then two
35:26
or three people pile in and say you need to do this you need to do this,
35:30
you need to do that and they're all different and then other people say well
35:33
actually we need to think about this we can't be given that and then it just
35:38
goes into a mishmash after that and the person who's asked the question,
35:41
Legitimately at the beginning Because as I say, they don't know what they don't
35:45
know They could have been signposted They could have been given somewhere to
35:49
go And had a look for better information That might have answered the question
35:53
for them Without any of the nonsense that goes on behind it And that's what
35:57
I think We're falling down now.
36:00
It's a good point. A very good point. That is one of the problems in these groups, isn't it?
36:03
People kind of giving their advice on what to do with a patient.
36:06
It seems, again, these forms are used for that. I've got a client who's suffering
36:09
from this. What should I do?
36:10
Oh, you need to do this. And everybody kind of sort of says basically the last
36:15
course they did, this will be what the problem is because this is in my mind now.
36:18
So how do we discourage that then? I mean, that's something.
36:21
If we're going to make, I mean, a lot of people,
36:24
one of the things that came out in the part one as well was a lot of therapists
36:27
who work by themselves particularly they they need
36:30
these groups they're not haven't got a physio or an osteo even
36:33
another massage therapist sports therapist next to them to actually have
36:36
a little chat and some peer kind of learning so they
36:39
come to these groups to kind of reach out and get some support and
36:42
they're labeled like massage support group so as
36:48
educators we kind of it'd be nice if we
36:51
could kind of mold these groups to
36:53
be a little bit better how do we discourage this people jumping
36:57
in and and kind of diagnosing and
37:00
saying what people should do what's the sort of
37:03
without kind of creating an argument what kind of stuff should
37:06
we be saying i think that what we've
37:08
got to do is we've got to acknowledge that educators
37:13
educate support groups support people
37:16
and so sometimes when those responses to
37:20
some of those inquiries are commercially driven i'll do come and do my course
37:24
or you know i use xyz technique because it works for everything i think sometimes
37:29
that's at best misleading and sometimes dangerous but you know the whole idea
37:35
of professional associations and the sj is one of many.
37:39
There's so many acronyms out there but what what we have tried to create is
37:44
a safe space to support those people so that they can ask those questions without
37:49
fear of judgment And my fear is that in an open forum.
37:53
You're getting opinion from people who are sometimes not well-informed.
37:59
You know, I saw one the other day, so can somebody explain to me the difference
38:02
between level 3 ITEC and level 5 XYZ?
38:06
And some of the answers on there were totally misleading, and so I put on there
38:11
that I'm happy to have a chat with a person, and I was signposted by two or
38:15
three other people as a person to come to to get an independent view of that.
38:20
So while some of these support groups are really good, some of them I don't
38:26
think are very good at all. They allow anything.
38:29
And I don't want to be a spoiler alert, but when you see an anonymous post,
38:33
if you're the admin of a group, you have to permit Gary Benson to post anonymously.
38:39
So we know who those people are if we're the admin of the group.
38:42
And what I've found is that some people in conversation with me have said that
38:48
they're posting anonymously.
38:50
Because they don't want their training provider to realise it's them asking
38:55
questions about their training that they've just completed.
38:57
So you can understand why people are wanting to post anonymously,
39:00
but also, we've discussed it before, it's about the fear, the anxiety of the
39:06
responses that we're getting.
39:08
So I think the admins have to do a better job because they're the people who run the groups. Yeah.
39:17
Sort of going back also to the advice that's given, I'm thinking of a particular
39:20
post on one forum about three or four months ago.
39:24
Client is a taxi driver, so obviously sitting down on their backside quite a
39:28
bit of the day. In spinal flexion, they're getting a burning pain.
39:32
So we have everything from weak glutes to strengthening your core,
39:37
mentioning your hammies, mentioning your quads.
39:40
More than likely, a bit of psoas work was in there because, let's face it,
39:43
the psoas rules everything.
39:44
And what was slightly scary was
39:47
everybody was ignoring the fact that this chap has a burning pain and again
39:53
it highlights mass i mean i actually i do think having facebook groups is really
39:57
important as a sole trader myself and when i was starting out i found them really
40:02
beneficial again it's that sense of community and having people who you kind of hope to support,
40:08
but you're right you get scary answers at
40:11
times and so I think what the
40:14
more experienced I have to go actually you know what this doesn't sound right
40:18
this might not be within your scope of practice what I think is the best thing
40:23
to do is actually find out what is going on with this person first because that
40:29
actually doesn't sound pretty normal to me and again it's that phrasing it.
40:33
I mean, I'm not going to say anything that I've not already openly said on Facebook here.
40:39
Yes, sometimes questions can sound pretty inane. And quite frankly,
40:44
a lot of the answers can sound pretty inane too.
40:46
But when you think where they've come from, i.e.
40:51
An absolute lack of understanding or knowledge, which isn't necessarily the
40:54
author's fault, but as you say, they need a bit more regulation as to,
40:59
Or maybe they're rephrasing as to what's being asked and the advice being given.
41:04
And if somebody is giving poor advice, I don't think there's necessarily a problem
41:09
in going, actually, you know what, that's not really good.
41:12
But again, there's a way of phrasing it to think, well, actually,
41:16
again, this person giving the advice might be lucky in their knowledge.
41:20
And it's really, really difficult. I mean, I'm a moderator of a whopping great
41:26
big Facebook massage group.
41:27
But i know stevie's on it too so you know exactly what i'm talking about
41:30
and boy at times
41:34
stuff gets really heated and if
41:38
you without if you if you think we can be moved
41:41
in the uk oh my gosh americans can turn that
41:44
volume up to 11 if you get the reference and you
41:47
know they can really really attack each other verbally
41:51
and it's scary because all the as you say all all
41:54
one person wants to do to have a little bit of knowledge and get a little
41:56
bit of experience so they're important but yeah
42:00
gotta kind of keep them in check a bit yeah there's
42:03
a huge sorry please carry on Hannah sorry I
42:06
was just gonna say yes I think a lot of us are working on
42:09
our own right from day one and that's really scary and
42:13
actually having a group of people you can just just reach
42:16
out to and feel like you're not completely on your own is really important
42:20
but yeah I completely agree that sometimes
42:23
may and I speak as someone who's not
42:26
a Facebook group admin so feel free to like
42:29
throw me from all your groups in disgrace but maybe sometimes
42:32
admins need to hit people over the head a little bit more often and just say
42:35
no that's not okay stop it oh the group I'm on trust me we're very good at that
42:41
I thought you might be I did imagine that might be the case yeah I've been introducing.
42:47
Them to Cornish slang and let's not see how that's going down.
42:51
I mean, what I was going to say there, just to back up, is that in the UK so
42:59
far, there are few ad hominem attacks.
43:04
So there's not really very many attacking the man type of replies rather than the message.
43:11
But in the States, you get that all the time. It gets really bad and really heated.
43:14
So we tend not to go down that route very often, which is pleasing.
43:20
To see but still things can get out of hand pretty quickly just too quickly and yeah I think.
43:30
I'm as guilty as anybody else is taking a step back sometimes and taking a breath
43:36
and then thinking you know what I'm now going to just put this in and that's
43:40
less than I was going to do because actually that's the right thing take a step
43:46
back and a breath and then,
43:49
post up after that But sometimes it's challenging. Hmm.
43:55
Matt, I feel sorry for the tutors out there.
43:59
Post-COVID, where we moved to a more blended learning delivery system,
44:07
tutors are now being asked to deliver a robust qualification in a matter of days.
44:14
And it's not possible, irrespective of the amount of online learning opportunities there are.
44:19
And so I think there's been a dramatic increase since
44:22
COVID on this type of insecurity with people
44:26
with qualifications and the the imposter syndrome you
44:30
know tomorrow tomorrow night the SDA are hosting
44:33
a life after uni sort of seminar
44:36
where we're going to be discussing you know what what to expect in the next
44:40
three to six months you know where are you going to get your support and we're
44:43
going to be talking about the toxicity of some of the of the responses we're
44:47
going to be talking about how uh you know and i my personal opinion is that
44:53
other other associations.
44:55
Have a business model the sta thrives
44:59
on a support model and i think that's where
45:02
we're different and that's where we're gaining the respect in
45:05
this this very podcast is being used in a lot
45:08
of professional standards modules for colleges and universities now so i think
45:16
you need a safe space you know that's what we're trying to create and and sustain
45:20
we need people who are supportive,
45:26
who can be you know
45:28
i always say things like they are and sometimes you
45:31
know i upset people with that and i'm learning to
45:34
be more diplomatic but i understand that i'm not the right person
45:37
for everybody and the fda is not the right vehicle for
45:40
everybody and that's why there are so many of us but but
45:43
yeah i feel really sorry for the tutors being asked to deliver
45:46
robust qualifications which in my day took six months
45:49
or a year full time to complete is now being asked
45:52
to be done in seven days so it's extremely difficult i
45:55
know there's three days steve i didn't want to mention that some of them three
45:59
yeah okay so i want to turn our attention to i mean an awful lot was said there
46:06
and there was kind of solutions and suggestions mixed up with it now but what
46:09
i want to try and address in the last five minutes is kind of how we,
46:14
us personally, or how associations or maybe anybody involved can work.
46:22
Help support groups for therapists become better places because we've got anonymous
46:27
posts where people are too fearful to actually post,
46:30
which is something which I think once you realize when we heard part one,
46:34
why some people are posting anonymously after what they've been through, it's not surprising.
46:38
So we have to kind of accept that some people will start off being anonymous.
46:42
What we do with that person, maybe as an admin, administrator or moderator or
46:46
something, when we see their posts anonymously might be an interesting conversation,
46:49
but what can we do to try and help social media support groups become healthier,
46:55
less toxic, kind of more supportive and useful places for our industry.
46:59
Have a little think in your minds of what you'd like to suggest.
47:03
Whilst that's going on, I want to give you time to think of how you think we
47:07
can improve these social media groups.
47:08
I just want to mention to listeners that if you are interested in becoming an
47:12
SDA member, then do please use the code podcast25.
47:17
So that's podcast, P-O-D-C-A-S-T, 25, the number, as that will give you three
47:22
months extra if you join for a single year.
47:25
So rather than, oh yeah, so for £75, which I have to repeat,
47:28
£75, because a lot of people have emailed me saying, seriously,
47:31
surely that's wrong, but it is just £75 for an annual membership.
47:34
But you will get 15 months instead of the normal 12 months, as long as you join
47:39
up for a single membership.
47:41
It's only valid for new members. And if you're a level three qualifying after
47:45
2014, then do make sure that you opt for associate member when you join up.
47:50
If you've got any questions, as always, just email either matt at the sta.co.uk.
47:54
No, email me matt at the sta.co.uk because I like to keep an eye on who's actually
47:59
learning from this podcast.
48:01
So there you go. Podcast 25 for an extra three months.
48:04
Okay, everybody, how are you going to improve the world and set peace in support
48:08
groups of therapists? Cecily, your lips are pursed.
48:11
I don't have a paper base at all. I think it's remembering where we all started
48:18
off and putting yourself in the person who's asking the question's shoes.
48:25
And again, understanding that
48:28
they might not understand. They don't necessarily know all that we know.
48:34
There's nothing wrong in sharing your knowledge. I mean, again,
48:38
I think it's one of those things, if I think I can add value,
48:40
I can give an answer or help, I will say it.
48:44
I try not to, if I don't think I can, sort of add anything.
48:47
But again, it's just that understanding where this person is coming from.
48:51
And then also not being afraid to call out bad behaviour.
48:58
If you see somebody else being rude, you know, okay, it's not necessarily your argument.
49:04
But I don't think, I think people should be kind of afraid. So actually,
49:09
mate, steady on, you know, that's a bit harsh. There's no need for that.
49:13
You know, we all have a responsibility to ourselves because everything is out
49:17
there and it is so public.
49:19
And again, written word can be misconstrued and you're talking to somebody who's
49:23
mostly told off for sending emails when she worked in an HR department because
49:26
she came across as being a bit too antagonistic. So I really understand it's so easy to do.
49:34
But, oh, again, kind of getting soppy, we're all part of one community and we're
49:38
all here to support each other.
49:39
That's the whole point of being on social media and being on these forums,
49:42
is to provide our support.
49:46
Even 30-odd years are doing this. I don't know everything. And again,
49:50
as I said to you, Donkiska, I can learn from people who have been doing this longer than me.
49:54
I can learn from people who, quite frankly, freshly qualified because they're
49:58
going to be generally younger and the memory is going to be better than mine.
50:01
And we just need to remember that we're all here to support.
50:05
And quite frankly, if you don't like that idea, shove off.
50:10
Okay. So, yeah, anyone who's thinking of commenting,
50:14
yeah anyone thinking of commenting to think twice before you comment that's
50:17
that's something which we all need to do especially on social media so that's
50:20
great and and also you added in there another one which was
50:22
don't be afraid to maybe just gently mention
50:26
if you think someone's being a little bit abrupt again don't start off
50:29
a side argument but maybe just message them if
50:32
you can personally or something so hannah what
50:34
do you think how can we improve the comment i'm going
50:37
to steal nikki mansfield's idea that she's put
50:40
on the comment because i think that's a really good idea which is
50:43
do Facebook groups need their own scopes of practice yes I
50:46
think they probably do I think that's a really good idea because there
50:50
are some groups I'm on where you know
50:53
I'm on one that was a particular course I did a particular CPD
50:56
course that I did and we started a little Facebook group and
51:00
so if I had a question about a shoulder I would probably go to
51:02
that group because everyone's been on the course and the tutors on the course who
51:06
was on the course is on that group and so I would feel that it's totally within
51:09
the scope of that group to give me a few pointers whereas there are others where
51:14
probably not so much and then the other thing I would sort of encourage as well
51:21
is if you are stuck on a case and you don't want to post on Facebook.
51:26
Do one of the coffee chats one of the zoom coffee chats because I have done
51:30
that with cases I've been absolutely frazzled with and just thought I don't
51:33
know what to do with this person and it's been so helpful because having that
51:37
back and forth conversation with someone is so much easier on a screen even
51:41
than it is trying to type it out.
51:44
And the other thing, you see, you've set me off now. Turn off notifications.
51:49
What have you done? What have you created, Matt? Let the rant out, Hannah.
51:54
No, we haven't got time. We'll be here for a week.
51:57
Turn off the notifications on your phone because they create a false sense of
52:00
urgency and they nudge you into keeping responding and keeping responding and
52:04
keeping responding because that's what the algorithm wants.
52:06
And that is not the way to have a nice measured discussion.
52:10
Turn the bloody things off.
52:12
Interesting. Good point. That's a real functional point, isn't it?
52:15
If you are involved in this discussion, then switch them off for a while and
52:18
allow your mind to mould something over rather than feeling,
52:21
I need to reply to them now. They've just said something else. It's a very good point.
52:24
That's a really good one. I like it. Can I just add to that?
52:26
No, you can't say something. We need to move around the clock.
52:29
They have set up a massive list of words.
52:32
So if any of these words are mentioned, it flags up automatically whether we
52:36
allow the comment or not.
52:39
Okay, a lot of time in practice has gone into that, but it's quitting.
52:43
Because you know if somebody's you know if he uses the
52:45
word stupid okay are they
52:48
calling somebody stupid or they're calling something stupid at that
52:51
point you can look at it you can moderate again no that's fine they're
52:54
calling something stupid rather than a person stupid and you
52:56
can either let it go or remove it
52:59
and again that's a little tool i think maybe admins
53:03
perhaps should set up okay it takes time but
53:07
then it makes moderating things so much easier because actually you
53:10
can look at it quickly go right i can take that out or let
53:12
it go nice point it's a good advice there for people if
53:15
they are moderating groups so yeah admins and moderators actually
53:18
if that's your role then it's quite a task it's
53:21
quite an important task it's a responsibility and you haven't got time to
53:24
do it or time to devote to it then give it to somebody who has
53:27
but yeah looking into things like that very good right let's
53:30
move around let's go to gary what do you think i've got
53:33
a sort of a personal policy Matt and it's to do with my own sort of mental health
53:38
and how frustrated I used to get and I had a sort of an epiphany moment where
53:43
I thought the only thing I can control is how long I participate in this behavior
53:48
so if there is you know a negative comment in there.
53:54
I'm not going to respond to it because I don't want to waste my
53:57
positivity on dealing with somebody who's
54:00
negative so i will instead of you know responding
54:03
to a negative post and throwing fuel onto the
54:06
fire i will either send the direct message to the original you know to the author
54:10
of the original post and say look if you want to discuss this and have an independent
54:14
view i'm happy to give you half an hour of my time and opinion do with it then
54:20
what you want at least you'll be able to make an informed choice so i think
54:23
we should stop engaging with the negativity,
54:27
and create that positive cycle of feedback.
54:31
Yeah, I think that's a good one. We mentioned that before. Maybe there should be more...
54:35
Yeah, it'd be lovely if...
54:37
The only thing i worry about is if people do get involved in direct messaging
54:40
then people can get all sorts of people in there dming them
54:44
and stuff and like you said like the people with a commercial interest in that
54:46
but maybe some again of the moderators and the
54:49
admins should have the time to do that
54:52
and say look it's a serious thing you're talking about if you want to message me
54:55
and maybe i can source you out to somebody else who
54:58
could help you with this so yeah good idea not putting it all out the public i
55:00
like it worth mentioning matt that a lot of
55:03
these moderators and admins of these group are doing it voluntarily yeah
55:07
it's hard isn't it it's true it's not like they're getting paid for
55:10
it which is a which is true very true so like
55:13
tools like cecily mentioned things like that i mean i i
55:17
i think i mentioned in part one that i think it's not
55:20
going to happen because facebook almost likes arguments doesn't it facebook loves
55:23
black and white it's how it makes money the more hate without
55:27
sounding too cynical and the more anger and the more
55:30
polarized debates and the more clicks and the more advertising everything so
55:33
it's not set up to for debate and and
55:36
thoughtful constructive advice because it'd
55:39
be lovely if if along with your profile in a facebook group
55:42
like in most other forums i've been in you can put
55:45
a little tagline of what your level experience is or you can put for example
55:49
bear with me i could be very abrupt at times please don't take it personally
55:53
just something like that if you know that's your personality or whatever because
55:56
i think anna maria as well raised an interesting point before with with some
56:00
people, like it might be a mental health issue.
56:03
It could be time of the month. It could be anything.
56:07
If you've got no way of letting that person know that you can be quite abrupt,
56:11
that you do see the world in different colors and you can speak out in a different
56:14
language that people might take personally, then it'd be nice to be able to
56:17
say that under your name or in your comments automatically as a little signature.
56:21
I think it would help a lot of people, your level experience in that, but it doesn't.
56:24
In Facebook, it's just an emoticon
56:26
and then a load of words which can be taken the wrong way. So yeah.
56:31
Okay. Anyway, that's me babbling on. Stevie, for you.
56:35
What do you think we can do to stop the problems we've discussed?
56:39
I think that we need to take more responsibility for the answers that we give.
56:47
If we want to give people the support that they're asking for,
56:53
then we need to take responsibility for how we do that.
56:56
So if we are going to answer something then be responsible behind it, you know,
57:02
offer links, offer places to go offer encouragement that you know,
57:07
that we can understand why they're asking the question and they may not necessarily
57:12
give them the answer that they're looking for but there is a reason for that
57:15
and be responsible about how you put that across,
57:20
because I think Gary summed it up at the very very start actually which I thought
57:23
was really cool the STEA is a support network,
57:27
I mean that's what it's that's what it's there for. It is to support people.
57:31
And we should be thinking about supporting people when we're giving them responses
57:37
to questions that they've asked.
57:39
Not shooting them down, but actually supporting them because it goes back to the same thing again.
57:45
They don't know what they don't know. And if they're in over their head...
57:50
Then we need to be able to say, as Cecil said, we need to be able to say,
57:53
look, actually, the best thing that you can do would be to refer that out because
57:56
I certainly wouldn't want to give you an answer that would mislead you.
58:00
And perhaps, you know, by doing so, you might get the answer that you're looking for.
58:06
But we can't just dismiss people and, you know, being new is not their problem.
58:12
You know, giving out bad answers, that's our problem.
58:17
You shouldn't be doing that. and we need to stop it and stop it very quickly
58:21
because it's getting out of hand, I think.
58:23
Matt, can I add in that we work in an unregulated industry.
58:29
We have got a lead council for soft tissue therapies.
58:33
I don't see comments from them about anything, but my role, I suppose,
58:40
is to support the STA members, to inform the prospective members,
58:46
but also to police the existing members
58:49
and and if i see a comment from one of
58:51
our members that borders on being a
58:54
personal attack that stevie was talking about i will
58:58
quite simply pick up the phone have a chat with them and
59:01
about how our code of conduct and professionalism
59:04
has a social media policy within
59:07
it and if they are you know going against
59:11
that code of conduct my only power in an unregulated industry to revoke membership
59:15
but I seldom revoke membership unless it's something that's a danger to the
59:20
public what I try and do is educate the person and give them some guidance as
59:25
to a more appropriate and supportive way of answering the questions,
59:30
Yeah, that's a great point. Very good. And it's worth pointing out that we are
59:34
all learning all the time. Like nobody is the finished article.
59:38
And even if we talk about being evidence-based, the evidence will not be the
59:42
same tomorrow as it was today.
59:44
It's not a fixed point in time. So it's worth remembering that everyone's got something to learn.
59:52
It's very true. Tristan Attenborough, who sadly couldn't be here today,
59:55
he sent me a few little notes, which I haven't read out or mentioned enough,
59:58
but it's because the points are being covered but he kind of summed it up
1:00:01
saying you know watch out if you are
1:00:04
one of the people who is kind of jumping in and commenting on every clumsy naive
1:00:08
and absolutist comment you read on because someone has said something that's
1:00:12
not true then don't think that you're fighting the good fight for the benefit
1:00:16
of the industry because you're being delusional you're harming it as well as
1:00:19
wrecking the opportunity for constructive discussion so,
1:00:22
that's why we need a twist here today really to put it just eloquently like
1:00:25
that but it is tempting to think you're fighting for the industry by, you know,
1:00:29
negating everything which isn't evidence-informed, but often you can do more harm.
1:00:33
Emma B., thanks for joining us. It's nice to see you in the show.
1:00:35
Emma B. was from panel one. Emma B.
1:00:37
Says, yes, Stevie, people should take responsibility for how they reply.
1:00:40
Thanks for joining us, Emma, and thanks for being in the panel.
1:00:43
Great, great points. I mean, Angela Thompson as well, who's in the live lounge,
1:00:47
has said, it is all of our responsibility as evidence-informed practitioners
1:00:52
to question uninformed advice and signpost to good resources and education.
1:00:56
But yeah, I think there is an ethical duty to kind of to help and to share,
1:01:03
whether it's just for the people who are being treated by other therapists, but for the industry.
1:01:09
But yeah, we just got to be careful how we do it, don't we? Like you say,
1:01:11
signpost to good resources and education.
1:01:15
Yeah, great point. Thank you, Angela.
1:01:18
Right, it's 9.05. So we've gone over the hour for the first time in ages, but it's a great topic.
1:01:23
And thank you for everybody in the live lounge who has added comments.
1:01:26
If you're listening to the podcast and the things you want to add to the debate,
1:01:29
then don't let it end now.
1:01:31
I would recommend that you go to YouTube and leave something in the comments
1:01:33
there. That's kind of the best place, the biggest shelf life.
1:01:36
And also comments in there show up in Google as well. So the more you can add
1:01:40
to the questions and we will get people to answer in YouTube,
1:01:43
then the more it will kind of appear on Google when people do put in searches
1:01:47
on what's a good association to join where we're going to feel included and supported.
1:01:52
Take the S to the TA. I like that. Right. I'd also like to thank our panel tonight,
1:01:56
Stevie Barr, Gary Benson, Hannah Tabham and Cecily Hislop. Thank you so much, everybody.
1:02:01
We will put contact details for everyone in the panel in the show notes for you.
1:02:07
Normally it's an Instagram link or a Facebook link or something.
1:02:09
So in case you do want to get in contact with them, if there's anything they've
1:02:12
said, which you'd like to continue the conversation.
1:02:14
So it just leaves me to let you know that next week on Tuesday,
1:02:17
eight o'clock on July the 29th, and that's going to be our last episode before
1:02:22
a couple of weeks off for the summer holidays and it's going to be an STA catch-up
1:02:27
with myself and Gary Benson who you've been listening to tonight and Gary's
1:02:31
going to be in the guest seat and giving us information on what is happening
1:02:35
in our industry at the moment,
1:02:36
what part of the Sports Therapy Association is playing in that,
1:02:39
and as Gary kind of alluded to earlier on how we can provide you with support throughout the year.
1:02:44
It'll be interest not just to STA members but to anybody who's a soft tissue
1:02:48
therapist working in our industry.
1:02:50
Anybody who's maybe interested in
1:02:51
joining the STA, it'll be a lovely opportunity to hear about what we do.
1:02:54
So do join us live if you can at eight o'clock on Tuesday on either YouTube
1:02:59
Sports Therapy Association channel or the Sports Therapy Association Facebook page.
1:03:04
And you can put your questions to Gary, put it in your diary and join us.
1:03:08
Otherwise, as always, it'll be down as a podcast.
1:03:10
Right. Thank you again, panel. Have a great evening. Thank you.
1:03:14
Thank you. Thank you very much. thank you and let the conversation continue
1:03:18
people on youtube if you've got any comments or experiences you want to share
1:03:22
hopefully we'll see some of you next week thank you and take care of each other bye.
1:03:28
Music.