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Experiencing Trauma From The Other Side with Dr. Shan Shan Jing · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two, and one. Our folks, welcome
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to the podcast. Very excited and honored to have as
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: my guest today, Dr. Shanshan Jing. Shanshan, welcome.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: with you. Awesome.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Dr. Jing is a consultant plastic and hand surgeon working
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: in a major trauma center in London, where she spent
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: years treating patients with devastating injuries, restoring nerves, vessels, and
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: soft tissues after life-altering trauma. In 2022, while working abroad
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: during the pandemic, she experienced trauma from the other side
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: when she survived a high-speed collision that killed her partner
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: and left her hospitalized with multiple injuries. Her recovery involved
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: navigating profound grief, neurological healing, and the identity shift of
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: becoming a trauma patient within the very healthcare system she
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: had dedicated her career to serving. This experience transformed her
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: understanding of post-traumatic growth, the nervous system's response to catastrophic loss,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: and the hidden burdens carried by healthcare professionals deepening her
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: belief in what she calls the holy trinity of health,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the physical, psychological, and the spiritual dimensions of healing. All right, Shanshan,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: obviously just a little bit about you. Before we get going,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: share with our listeners where you are from originally and
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: where you are currently, and we'll dive in.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for that beautiful summary and introduction.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: So I was born in Shanghai in China, and I
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: moved over to the UK when I was six, seven
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: years old with my parents who are both academics and surgeons.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: My dad was a surgeon, so my mom's doing her PhD,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: so we moved over.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: All right, Shanshan, so let's start. Take us back. How
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: did this start for you, your interest, your passion, your
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: parents' pressure? How did you get into the field?
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, you know, I think it's a common
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: misperception that, you know, with Asian, Eastern Asian parents, you know,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: they'd be dragon parents. They were far from it. They
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: were so busy with their own lives and their own careers.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I always consider myself as a black sheep or misfit
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: of the family. So Unfortunately, I come from five generations
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: of doctors and I didn't intend to be a doctor
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: early on in my youth. I wanted to be a creator.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be an artist from as young as
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I can remember. I loved drawing and doozling and carried
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: through with that, studying up to university along with all
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: the sciences and maths. Of course, you need to enter
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: into medical school. But even in medical school, I went
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: and did art colleges such as Central Saint Martins to
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: carry on my artistic pursuit.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Yes. And, you know, this is where Asian parents sort
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: of kick in a little bit where, you know, they thought, well,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: being an artist isn't going to put roof over my
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: head or food on the table, pay the bills. And
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: it wasn't until that I sort of took the initiative
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: to go to South Africa and where I lived for
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: two months, really living and breathing trauma at first hand,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: and particularly joining the plastic surgery team, had I actually
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: realized the real artistry of plastic surgery. And I was.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: And excuse me, Shanshan, so you did that while you
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: were in medical school?
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. So I think it's true in all schools, actually,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: all medical schools that you would get a six weeks
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: to two months of live experience in a major trauma
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: center of your choosing. I think much easier back in
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: the day than it is now. So certainly I've encountered
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: some very interesting experiences whilst in South Africa. And so, yeah,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: that experience really taught me the foundations of plastic surgery
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: and the fact that it's, in my opinion, is the
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: highest level artistic expression of modern science so I thought
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: you know what this is actually written in the stars
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: my parents rebelled especially my dad because he found that
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: um having been a surgeon he really struggled with the
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: quality of life as even as a male surgeon so
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: he didn't really see it as a useful career I
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: suppose out of out of love for me as.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: His only why Why?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, the long hours. He was a head and neck surgeon.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: So having done head and neck surgery, for example, sometimes,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: you know, you could be in theatre for 10 hours
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: or plus. And the longest operation I've been involved in
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: was nearly 24 hours. So it definitely requires a lot
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: of more mental and physical resilience than one would expect
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: to be a surgeon, especially a plastic surgeon. So I
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: suppose out of love and protection, He thought maybe being
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: a dentist would have been a better job. But I
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: was a quite rebellious child. I was quite anti-establishment. And
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: I wanted to give plastic surgery a try. And here
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I am today. So I've never regressed it.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: So even from that experience in South Africa, you said
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: you saw a lot of trauma. What was that like
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: for you experiencing that and then following through into your
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: current position as a plastic surgeon working with people who've
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: experienced trauma? What is that like for you?
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: I think it set the foundation for me. It set
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: the foundation in the sense that, you know, back in
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the day, South Africa, even in Cape Town, some parts
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: of it, was still very, very rural. They had very
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: little facility. Depending on where you are, there's very much
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: a postcode lottery in terms of the service that you
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: would get. So I was based in Khrushchev, where the
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: first heart transplant in the world happened, of course. And
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: that is a well-established major trauma center. And the volume,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: the sheer volume of trauma, I have never seen any
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: other center since. I've been working my role to be
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: as high as that. You know, literally, it felt like
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: a conveyor belt of managing major burns, major head and
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: neck trauma, or limb trauma. I remember also going to
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: townships in, I believe it's called Kalicha, where I did
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: a night shift there. It's a very rural, remote hospital.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: very dangerous. I remember walking in, it was guarded with
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: barbed wires and a guy on the front gate with
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: a machete gun. And, you know, you had a small
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: desk in the center. There were a few desks.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: But dealing with, Shan Shan, excuse me for interrupting, but
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: dealing with that as a young doctor, you know, there's
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: the cliche example of the Like med student, right? Doing
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: their rotation in the ER and seeing blood or whatever
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: and fainting, you know, and then there's the other person
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: who's just like, get out of the way. I'm ready
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: to do this. Where were you in that? Was, were
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: you just. in shock seeing this? Were you just like,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: all right, put my head down. I got to do this.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: How was it personally for you dealing with that and
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: seeing all that trauma?
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that given
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: my formative years in China, it gave me some sort
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: of background to that. Um, I knew what poverty meant.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: You know, my parents are come from the generational cultural revolution.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: They were, uh, you know, um, sufferers at the time
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: in their younger years as a result of cultural revolution.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, I lived and breathed trauma and hardship, really.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I remember food to a degree were rationed, you know,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: despite my father being a head and neck surgeon, we
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: were paid like something like seven pound a week, which
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: equates to, I don't know, probably $ 12 a day, sorry,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: $ 12 a week. So that was a very little to
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: live on. And I remember, you know, having as a
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: young child, my father giving me some money so that
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I can go buy food from the farmer's market and,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: you know, or go collect meals or meal vouchers. I've
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: been there. So I've seen what hardship means. I see
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: when people don't get the health care treatment that they need,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: what happened to them is quite unconventional now. But back
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: in the day, patients used to visit our homes. And
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: we used to have, you know, patients who can't pay
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: for health care would come and visit. My father would
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: be very kind and see to them. And that is purely,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: you know, out of our personal time and in our home.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: So I sort of faced that as a child. And
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: so going into a much more aggressive, chaotic, violent environment,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I would say even. Yes, of course, initially. There is
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: the shock to embrace, to absorb, to distill and just process.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: But very much from a very young age, I sort
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: of able to compartmentalize. And that's what medical training also
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: give you as well, is that you're able to compartmentalize
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: and deal with a task immediately at hand. and i
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: do remember walking i was shocked at this particular remote
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: hospital because there was a tiny desk in the middle
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: where all the nurses and the doctors really sat around
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: with notes all piled up and there were several hospital
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: beds around but not enough bed spaces to accommodate all
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: the patients So some of the patients were literally leaning
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: against the wall with a bleeding wound that they're just grasping,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: you know, trying to tamponade the bleeding. So probably almost
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: as chaotic as the First and Second World Wars I
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: probably haven't had, I haven't witnessed, but probably not too
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: dissimilar to that. So that was a real shock, but
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: it gave me, an inspiration to do something about it.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: I remember spending pretty much all night trying to stitch
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: up this guy's scalp because he'd got glossed all over
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: his face. And he was also slightly intoxicated and trying
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: to keep him still and suture all the cuts that
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: he had was quite a task. But I saw through
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: that at first hand, you know, how transformative plastic surgery
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: can be how immediately able to transform the patient's lives.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: And I thought, gosh, you know, this is the career
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: that I wish to pursue.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: So, okay, how do things evolve? You decide this is
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: what I want to do. You get through medical school.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: What happens?
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Then it's the grueling years of training. And particularly in
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the UK, and I have worked in different continents, I
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: would say that unfortunately UK does have still the longest
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: training period to get into plastic surgery so that would
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: mean two years of foundation junior doctor roles to then
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: another two years in a breadth of surgical specialties and
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: those who wish to pursue plastic surgery would certainly do
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: some plastic surgery rotations followed by four to six years
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: of plastic surgery training on top of that And to
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: finish that off, you know, people often want to subspecialize
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: in a particular area, whether it being hands, lower limb,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: head and neck reconstructions, breast reconstructions. And trainees will often
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: then go abroad or different locations to get further training
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: before they come back to be a consultant in their
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: own field.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Which you've done.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Which I have done. It makes me feel ancient, but yes, look,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: you know, surgery is one of those manual skills that
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: require a huge amount of experience and experience can only
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: be bought through time.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: So take us to the experience that we're going to
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: be talking about today.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've actually had two trauma. The first one slightly,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: you know, less dramatic than the second one. So back
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: in 2016, I was cycling from an art class actually,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: back home after my shift, and I was run over
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: by a careless young driver. And unfortunately, I had a
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: number of injuries that were missed. And it wasn't until
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I managed to really advocate for myself, and I was
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: really having pain shooting down my leg, And going back
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: to my general practitioner, because I was training, I got
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: balloted for the London Marathon that year, which was quite
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: an unusual opportunity. It was only then that they found
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: a slipped disc that was missed on the initial assessment.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: So I had to recover from that and then rewind
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: the clock to 2022. I was living the best time
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: of my life, I must say, during COVID period in
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: New Zealand. And I met my wonderful late partner who
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: was just my best friend. And I used to do
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: these long journeys to remote clinics because New Zealand's extremely
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: dispersed in terms of its population. And the areas we
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: cover is vast. Um, and on this very remote journey,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: which I would start at six o'clock in the morning,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: it will take me three hours to drive there with
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: no breaks because there is no gas station or barely
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: any gas station that certainly will be open, no toilet. So, um,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: single road down to, to this remote clinic to do
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: a four days work of head and neck, whether it
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: being seeing these patients to doing some surgeries to do,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: multidisciplinary meetings. So it's a pretty long day. And that
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: would then involve me driving all the way back with
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: absolutely no break and reach home by 8 to 9pm.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: So my late partner Mickey used to come as the
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: wonderful support person that he was on these journeys. And
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: it was just very unfortunate that we were hit by
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: a oil tanker. And then Also hit from the other
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: direction by oncoming traffic at high speed.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Simultaneously?
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was a double whammy. Whoa. Yeah.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Whoa. Yeah. Yeah.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: It's truly a miracle when I keep thinking about it,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: how I'm alive today, that I get to be here
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: to live.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: What injuries did you sustain? Um.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I sustained a lot of internal injuries. I do not
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: remember because I passed out and I was airlifted to
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: the hospital. I was in intensive care for my internal
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: organ injuries for about a week, particularly to my chest.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I had a severe crushed chest injury, liver laceration, which
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: was extremely high grade, where they were going to perform
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: an emergency laparotomy on me, which at the last minute
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: they decided not to, to traumatic brain injury. And yes,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: so it's been tough.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: First of all, I'm so sorry to hear about your partner.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I just want to say that. I appreciate you sharing that.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: You get to the hospital, were you conscious then?
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: No. So I was trapped from what the police had
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: told me. I was trapped and I had to be
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: cut out. And then I was airlifted to the main
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: trauma center back in the capital in Wellington. But I
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: have a zero recollection of it. And I was in
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: intensive care for about a week.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: What happens when you wake up?
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: The first time I had any form of consciousness that
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I remember was apparently days later on intensive care and
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: a nurse telling me that Mickey had passed. And all
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: I could remember was this huge amount of overwhelming pain
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: that no words can really describe. And I just remember
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: bawling up and crying my eyes out. And my friend
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: at the time was also a colleague. She stayed with me,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: literally just cuddling me all night on my ICU bed.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: That was my first recollection. I believe it was already
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: several days later after the accident.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: How do things unfold for you, Shan Shan, as you, what?
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: I don't even want to say begin healing, but begin
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: dealing with what's in front of you. What does that
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: look like?
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, when I've spoken to my therapist, it
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: really is, I describe it as a Hiroshima bomb that
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: essentially went off in my life that blew away everything.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I had nothing left. I literally felt that I had
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: everything stripped away from me, from losing my best friend,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: losing who I was. I didn't really know who I was. Losing,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: at that time, a perceived identity of a job as
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: a potential plastic surgeon because I was still in training.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: And being completely out of control and uncertain about the future.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: So recovery is never linear, I'm sure you've heard. And
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: it is never, it is messy, it is chaotic, no
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: matter how much trauma books, support groups that you go
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to or books that you read, nothing, will prepare you
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: for what actually ensues. And it wasn't just a physical,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I think out of everything, the physical aspects of the
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: recovery was probably the easiest part for me. Because I
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: knew what to expect. I had foresight into my problems.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: It was also unfortunate that I was on my own
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: in a foreign country after major, major car accident and
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: not really knowing what it's like, how the New Zealand
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: healthcare system works for trauma as a patient, not as
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: a provider. I had to go through a lot of
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: bureaucracy with that and experiencing the delays in rehabilitations. And
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: it really required me advocating for myself and calling on
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: friends who are experts in their field back home in
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: the UK, really to try and rally some help for
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: me had I made it through. So as I say,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the physical was not a problem for me. I knew
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: what to do, what sort of exercises I needed. I
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: went through intensive periods of hydrotherapy that I knew I
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: had to have and just following YouTube channels. You know,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: nobody was ever going to teach me that. Just following
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: YouTube channels and understanding my trauma, understanding my injury and
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: really just use Google. You know, it was Dr. Google
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: that supported me the most through my physical recovery. And
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: then it was.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: How is New Zealand's healthcare system generally? Are they considered great, good, poor?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Every health system has its challenges. I would say New
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Zealand is quite unique.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: That's the diplomatic answer. Let me rephrase the question. Did
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: you want to get back to the UK ASAP?
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that I just
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: wanted escapism because the healthcare I was really struggling with,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I couldn't get the right access to care. When I
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: was calling up, I was very much labeled as a patient,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: not as a specialism. So I was told that I
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: should not be making self-referrals when actually those referrals were correct.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: They were also then facing with COVID challenges, sort of
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: a lag a few months behind.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Which meant that I couldn't even find a GP who
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: was able to look after me. So I was doing
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: the job of a family practitioner, collecting all my notes
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: and trying to beg anyone who's willing to prescribe painkillers
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: for me, whether it being at workplace or, you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: alternative GP. So I think I just felt through the
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: safety net of the little net perhaps that they even
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: had because, um, even though they do get a huge
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: amount of trauma, the trauma network is not as mature
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: as the UK and perhaps the US. And they deal
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: with the essential aspects of trauma, but many other parts,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: including rehabilitations, chest physio, or particularly for trauma psychology, a
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: huge amount of that was missing. And I had to
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: spend a lot of time sort of really doing a
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: lot of research myself in finding the right people to
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: really try to help me. And they have a sort
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: of a national insurance service, which covers trauma, which, unfortunately, again, it's,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: I would say it's not just specific to New Zealand,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: but they treat people patients as the injury codes you
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: know like the ICD numbers rather than actually seeing a
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: holistic person who is just in need of desperate help
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: and that might need a combination of treatment so I
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: think it's just being characterized to be a patient that
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: made me feel very very vulnerable that I was not
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: able to get the healthcare that I need at a
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: critical time because so much we know about trauma is
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: recovery and recovery takes time. The sooner you jump into recovery,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: the quicker and the better you will be and the
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: better the long-term outcome. And this is why, again, you know,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: even for my trauma psychology, I was hugely thankful to
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: people like Gava Mate, who, you know, I'm a huge
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: fan of. And he's been on your podcast, I know.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: And when he talked about trauma and the definition of
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: trauma and the myth of normal, it sort of demystifies
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: so much of trauma that I was experiencing at the time.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And it allowed me to give that authenticity to myself
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: a lot more and becoming myself a lot more. Or
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: reading books at the time, The Body Keeps the Score. Um,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: and that was hugely helpful as well about the long-term
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: effects of, you know, physical trauma to, to your brain,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: to your body and how you may recover from that. So, um, yes.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Let me, this sounds so crazy. I mean, first of all,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm expect, uh, are you,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: how are you now?
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I'm a lot better. I'm great, actually.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Okay. All right. I love to hear that. Thank God.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: And it's so great to have you here. And I
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: so appreciate you coming on here and sharing this story.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: And as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, if you,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: as someone who's an experienced, your trainee, plastic surgery, going
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: through this, you're having this issue. I can just imagine what,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: you know, people who don't have your experience have to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: go through. But having said that, you're dealing with the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: horror of having lost your partner, the psychological impact of that,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: the identity impact of that, and then the physical aspect
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: of healing, and then the emotional. How did you manage to...
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: take a step forward. What was going on in your mind?
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Do you know, I mean, yeah, I mean, I look
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: back now and I do not know how I made it.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And especially the fact that I made my work as
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: part of my rehab. And I went back to work
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: three months after my accident, which nobody, no one would
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: really believe. And I think I'm always somebody who just
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: don't take the backseat. I always believed in myself. And
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: my previous training, you know, whether in the NHS or
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: in low-income countries, from South Africa to Uganda to Malawi
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: to Bangladesh to, you know, most recently this week, I've
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: just come back from Zambia. Those years and hardships, I
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: must say, and adversities have taught me so much about survivorship.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: And it's literally... doing the next right thing for me.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I made rehab my full-time job. And don't get me wrong,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: sometimes I had five, six, seven, eight appointments a day
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: for a variety of reasons. And I would go on
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: these long walks just so that I can embed myself
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: in nature, getting the fresh air that I need, developing
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: my mental health, and listening to experts and on trauma psychology,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: on trauma recovery in the process. So I was my
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: own physician. I was a patient. I was my own physician.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I was my own advocate. And it was very, very,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: very busy.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Was there any time during that process where either a physician,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: like that amazing physician came to you and said, Okay,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: let's do this. Or was there a therapist at some point?
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong. Even though I say there are
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: a number of things missing, I had some core system
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: in place, absolutely. After weeks and months of waiting, I
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: had a neuropsychologist. I had a trauma OT. And that
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: was from the beginning where she was able to give
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: me some guidance And I did have some home help,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: because literally, I could not move. And, and I did,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: you know, I reached out to specialists, you know, had
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: a neurosurgeon involved. And I did my own chest physios
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: by going to hydrotherapy and going swimming, going from the
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: slowest lane to then the middle lane to the fast lane.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: And that just took time and effort. So not to
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: say that I was completely lost and had no support
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: network whatsoever. I had the essential framework, if you like,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: to really help me along.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: What about psychologically though? You talked about YouTube and Dr.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Google and Gabor and Bessel van der Kolk's book. But
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: was there a therapist at any point? And was there
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: an incredible therapist at any point that you found that
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: helped you?
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a neuropsychologist who came into the picture
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: weeks later. And this is where New Zealand is particularly
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: struggling because they struggle with the manpower. they don't have...
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: A problem I think is not just unique to New Zealand,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: but across the globe, is that there is a real
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: lack of neuropsychologists at the moment, and then high, high demands,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: and given how many patients suffer from trauma, there's just
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: not enough of them. And certainly this was the case
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: in New Zealand. I had one session a week with her,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: and there was so much to go through that by
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: the time I left in New Zealand... we didn't really
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: cover all the grounds and the basis. In fact, in
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: the UK, I'm still on the wait list for a
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: trauma-specific psychologist to support me in the process. So this
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: is very much a pandemic problem and not an endemic problem.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And I think it was through a lot of listening
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: to a lot of motivational speakers, listening to people, you know,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: the stoics, you know, reading books, listening to podcasts, had
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: it really, you know, doing all those things helped me
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: in being a lot more recovered today than I would have.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Looking back, what do you wish you'd had? What kind
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: of resource? What kind of person? What kind of therapist
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: or physician? What did you need to hear?
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: That I was a patient, not just that I was
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: a person, not just a patient, that I was more
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: than just a case number, all my injuries.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: We all... Sounds so simple, doesn't it? Yes.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, that would be the ideal care, having the
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: right care at the right time that is encompassing for
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: all your injuries, whether it be mental or physical injuries.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: and working on spiritual health as well. So the hospital
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: chaplain was also somebody I leaned heavily on at the
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: very start of my journey to help me, you know,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: navigate through faith. And faith, I would say, it's not naive,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: but essential, you know, it's more than just religion. I
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: think it's the anchor that so many people need through adversity,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: no matter what you believe in, having faith in that,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: that will really give you the courage to sort of
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: walk in the dark alone and making through.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So sitting here now, Shan Shan, what have you taken
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: from that experience? What do you bring into the work
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: you do now? What is important for you to share
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: and communicate with the people that you work with?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: I think I'm a completely different person out of my
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: experiences than I was before. You know, this is why
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I talk about post-traumatic growth. And I think people think
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: of it in a too simplistic way in that, you know,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: it's beyond then just being more productive, more successful. coming
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: through but it's it's about being honest being honest with
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: who you are and bringing the best version of yourself
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: to the job not just as a clinician but also
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: to manage you know patients mental and spiritual health along
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: with the physical in that process and that is absolutely
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: critical you know we all probably know the book that
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: is written by Maxwell Maltz on cyber cybernetics he's a
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: psycho psych sabonetics sorry i'm a little bit nervous today
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: so you know talking about something that is um i
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: didn't quite expect we would dive quite deep into.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Yes chances what this is about.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Diving heavy editing on this um because it wasn't kind
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: of content that i was kind of expecting to talk
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: about But psycho-cybernetics, right, is understanding the internal self as
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: well as managing the external is, for me, my process
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: of rediscovering myself and rediscovering my identity has really taught
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: me is how, through surgery, am I going to restore
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: someone else's identity and help them along with that process?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: And that is... the most important thing for me going
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: forward as a plastic surgeon.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: So with that, having said that, what changed in your
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: interactions with your patients?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: I think I'm a lot more empathetic. I listen more
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: just because I was dismissed on so many occasions in
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: my own care. And knowing that the patient opposite me
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: at the point of care could have been me, I
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: pay a lot more attention to the person. You know,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I just happen to walk on a chapter they're in
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: and often a very vulnerable time, otherwise they wouldn't be there,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: is giving them that empathy, that compassion, that understanding. Look,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I'm here. I'm also a human. I understand. And I
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: would use my skill set in the best way possible
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: in providing the best care that I can.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Shenshen, come on. Seriously, you're such an inspiration. You really are.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, all of your accomplishments. Yeah, those
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: were amazing. But to hear you talk about this transformation,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: this journey that you went on in the wake of
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: this horrific accident is amazing. It's so inspiring. Thank you
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: so much for being here and taking the time to
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: do that and to share it, really.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. And I think it's important
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: to speak out. I had been nervous before in talking
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: about it because it's not just managing myself. A big
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: part of actually trauma recovery is managing other people's expectations
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: of you. And the challenge I have in a very
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: high-stakes job is that it's being misperceived. That is unfortunately
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: the hypocrisy that we face in healthcare a lot. And
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: that is causing huge amount of problems internationally. So I
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: think being vulnerable, right? Just like Brene Brown said, being
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: vulnerable is a true marker of courage. And so if
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: my story has helped someone else out there, to any
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: of the listeners, to people who may be interested in
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: trauma or understand it from Somebody like me who has
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: experienced the duality of healthcare, both as a provider and
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: a patient, will hopefully give them a glimmer of hope
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: and treat patients in a slightly more empathetic and human way.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Because at the end of it, that's what humanity is.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Beautifully said. How do people learn more about you?
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: How do people reach out to you?
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: So yes, you can reach out to me by LinkedIn
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: or my professional Instagram account. And I also have a
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: website called Dr. Shan Shan.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: All right. And we'll have those linked up here at
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Shan Shan, pleasure.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Love to have you back at a later time. Come on.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: You're freaking amazing. Really, you are. Thank you for being here.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: You've been too kind. And remember, I'm not the first.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not the last. There will be somebody out there.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: So please give them love and care.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Take care.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Bye.