Latest / Rusty's Garage / Calvin Fish - Part 1

Transcript

Calvin Fish - Part 1 · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:17
  I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust, and this is Rusty's Garage.
• 0:23
  I'm Rusty's Garage.
• 0:27
  I recorded this episode in the studio, but my guest was some 13,000 k's away on the east coast of the United States, a place Calvin Fish now calls home, despite being raised in the UK.
• 0:41
  And his accent reflects...
• 0:43
  A bit of both.
• 0:43
  You sense he's proud of his roots and equally of the country he has been based in now for most of his life.
• 0:50
  This episode is well overdue and something of a labour of love.
• 0:54
  You see, Cal is someone who's been like a brother to a good mate of ours on Rusty's Garage, Lee Diffie, since Diff first moved to the States over 20 years ago.
• 1:05
  You might recognise Calvin's name from the commentary team at some very memorable editions of the Le Mans 24 Hour in the past few decades.
• 1:14
  And if you follow sports car racing in the US, you'll be familiar with him.
• 1:18
  He's also been part of the team from Speed Channel that came down under to call the Bathurst 1000 back in 2011 with Mike Joy and Darrell Waltrip.
• 1:27
  What people in Australia and New Zealand mightn't know is that Calvin did the hard graft as a racer too, and he was good.
• 1:34
  good enough to go wheel to wheel with the legendary Ayrton Senna and more.
• 1:39
  Those yarns and his insights into Senna's incredibly competitive makeup away from the track are captivating.
• 1:46
  Calvin chased the dream in America and impressed on that side of the pond as well.
• 1:51
  He's not the kind for shoulda, coulda, woulda, but the conversation will make you think, what if...
• 1:57
  this door opened another way.
• 1:59
  What might it have led to in terms of his driving career?
• 2:03
  He was smart enough to grab a broadcast opportunity when it came out of the blue, and he's never looked back.
• 2:09
  I've watched him work firsthand on the Daytona 24-hour coverage with DIFF, and the rapport between them is brilliant.
• 2:17
  Calvin reads the race so well, offers the driver's perspective with a succinctness that the pit lane really respects,
• 2:25
  But with common cut through, the average fan can relate even if they're not hardcore motorsport followers.
• 2:32
  Those qualities have seen him turn his hand to driver management too.
• 2:36
  More on that in a conversation that I really hope you enjoy.
• 2:39
  It's a beauty.
• 2:40
  I'm so pleased to finally have Calvin Fish in the garage.
• 2:47
  Calvin, welcome to the pod.
• 2:48
  It's great to get you on for a chat.
• 2:50
  Finally, welcome.
• 2:51
  Yeah, it's great to be here, mate.
• 2:52
  Wonderful to see your face and look forward to catching up a bit.
• 2:55
  You haven't changed since we caught up with each other at 24 Hours of Daytona, which I think was crazily now a decade ago.
• 3:02
  We'll get to kind of broadcasting and that life shortly, but can we start with early life for you?
• 3:08
  So I think, is it Norwich in the UK?
• 3:11
  America's now home, but you grew up in the UK.
• 3:14
  And motorsport kind of comes about as a Christmas present in the early 70s.
• 3:19
  Is that how it all kind of kickstarted?
• 3:20
  Yeah, it did.
• 3:21
  I mean, I'd always had an affinity with cars.
• 3:23
  My dad, initially when he left school, worked for English Electrics or like putting up power stations and stuff over there.
• 3:29
  And then he and his best mate got into business together.
• 3:32
  And they used to put up TV antennas on roofs.
• 3:37
  So they got into business together.
• 3:38
  They used to knock out like 20, 30 of these a day and...
• 3:41
  had a good business acumen, and then they got in a used car dealership.
• 3:44
  So you can imagine the shenanigans back then, where a speed odometer was just a thought at no reality to how many miles a car had actually done, all this sort of get people played.
• 3:54
  And so I was always around cars, and, you know, my dad loved cars right from when he was a kid.
• 4:01
  I think he was the first young man on the street to roll in a car, for example, when he was very young.
• 4:06
  And he'd always come home, like, initially, it was like being NGB and NGB GT.
• 4:11
  Then it transitioned into a Lotus.
• 4:13
  And then as he got better, or his business got a little bit more profitable, he'd come home with a Ferrari Daytona or a Lamborghini, a Sparta, which for me as a kid was just like, wow, what are you driving tonight, Dad?
• 4:23
  So loved cars.
• 4:26
  And then we got into the carding game.
• 4:28
  So that was 1974.
• 4:28
  So it was a Christmas gift, just a little bricks and stratton-type runaround thing.
• 4:34
  And so we played around on that for a little bit.
• 4:36
  And then we sort of like did some work on it so we could go racing with it.
• 4:40
  And that's how we all got fired up.
• 4:41
  So got the bug early.
• 4:43
  Didn't really think I was ever going to lead to anything.
• 4:45
  I was just going on an airfield and kicking up some dirt and having some fun.
• 4:49
  And then what happened then, my mom and dad split up.
• 4:53
  And so my dad moved down to the southwest end of the country.
• 4:56
  And his brother, my uncle Simon, used to take me in the van.
• 4:59
  We'd go down and meet at London.
• 5:00
  And my dad and I would both race.
• 5:02
  Initially, him and senior division obviously not against each other, me and juniors.
• 5:06
  And that was how we used to meet twice a month on the weekends to sort of bond and get to see each other because he was in business in the car dealership down there.
• 5:14
  And I was based up in Norfolk living with Mo, obviously.
• 5:16
  So, yeah, so I like the carding and...
• 5:19
  went from there.
• 5:20
  Your other big go was football or as often Aussies call it is soccer.
• 5:25
  Is that right?
• 5:26
  Were you good at school and so on?
• 5:28
  I was actually pretty good at soccer.
• 5:31
  I call it football of course but yeah it was kind of my main sport.
• 5:35
  Weren't very good at rugby, weren't big enough.
• 5:36
  I was brave enough.
• 5:37
  I used to get run over so that wasn't much fun.
• 5:39
  Needed to find something different.
• 5:41
  So soccer is actually quite good.
• 5:42
  There were a couple of the kids that
• 5:44
  There was two young black boys, Justin Fashionu and John Fashionu, who Justin was like one of my best mates.
• 5:51
  He went on to become like the first million pound player in English soccer over there.
• 5:55
  So he was really good.
• 5:56
  And I was like behind him.
• 5:57
  He's a lot bigger than me and stronger and more talented too.
• 6:01
  So he went on to have an amazing career.
• 6:03
  And John, his brother followed him as well.
• 6:05
  And he actually got in the TV games a bit of a personality, John did.
• 6:08
  So I always had an affinity with it, but got a little too chubby during the key years when it was like time for scouts to come and look at you.
• 6:17
  You know, I'd pass someone and then they'd catch me back up and I had to pass them again.
• 6:20
  So I just weren't quite fast enough on the feet.
• 6:23
  But yeah, but that was right in the transition where what was the sport and, you know, the karting was getting bigger and bigger in my life.
• 6:30
  So the soccer kind of went away a little bit and I focused more on the driving.
• 6:34
  Is this about the point maybe where shifter karts actually became a thing for you?
• 6:40
  I mean, I think you raced 250s.
• 6:41
  You raced maybe even for Martin Hines, who's no longer with us and things like that, didn't you?
• 6:47
  Yeah, the 100cc stuff was more on the local level, and then my dad was racing a 250cc.
• 6:54
  And then we got to a point where I made the switch up to the superkarts, as we called them back then, which was great because you're trying to make that jump from if you're going to stay in racing, can you get out of the karting scene and move on?
• 7:06
  And at the time, superkarts really had a great following.
• 7:09
  So the big race that Martin Heinz kind of was the pioneer behind was the British Grand Prix, Silverstone British Kart Grand Prix.
• 7:18
  And we'd have about 200 entries there, mate.
• 7:19
  You'd have an A, B, C, D, E final.
• 7:22
  And so I was racing.
• 7:23
  We were doing it sort of privately.
• 7:27
  And then...
• 7:28
  Martin got in touch with us and said, do you want to come on the team as the Hermitai Zip team, which was a big deal back then.
• 7:34
  So I went and drove with him and it was great.
• 7:36
  I mean, when you move with a big team, I mean, my dad and I used to do everything.
• 7:41
  We thought we knew what we were doing.
• 7:42
  But when you go with a big team, you realize what you've been doing wrong.
• 7:47
  For example, like not breaking the cart chain was a big thing.
• 7:50
  So we upgraded to the perfect cart chain.
• 7:52
  And then we came up with like this treacle, like oil that we used to put on it.
• 7:56
  You could barely spin the wheel on the axle on the cart stand.
• 7:59
  It was probably dragging about five horsepower out of it.
• 8:02
  For sure, our chain wasn't going to break, but we lost about five miles an hour in the straightaway.
• 8:06
  And then you go with the big team and it's all about, you know, losing the friction and all the rest of it.
• 8:10
  So losing the drag.
• 8:12
  So we learned a lot as we moved with the big team.
• 8:15
  We realized what we'd been missing.
• 8:17
  But it was a great time because, as I said, the supercars were getting a lot of attention.
• 8:21
  Typically, I was racing against guys in their upper 20s, 30s, guys like Martin.
• 8:28
  But there were a couple of young guys, myself included, and a guy called John Baller, kind of like just coming up on 20 years old.
• 8:34
  So we used to get a lot of attention.
• 8:36
  Because of that, that really created the transition for me between the karts and car racing.
• 8:42
  So there was a kart called a Dino that was built in Denmark.
• 8:46
  And there was a Greek family who imported it over to the UK.
• 8:49
  And they said, listen, if you leave Martin and come and drive for us, we'll give you some money to go car racing with.
• 8:55
  It was cool.
• 8:55
  AK was the family business.
• 8:57
  They're in the clothing business, but they love racing in the karts and everything.
• 9:00
  So that was really how I made the break into car racing is from the karts just through that transition period.
• 9:05
  I think that was Formula Ford, which we'll come to in a second.
• 9:08
  But there is a story that you shared with the Dinner with Racers boys, who I love listening to, around being on track at the same time as an F1 car.
• 9:19
  You're in the supercar, am I right?
• 9:21
  What the hell was that like?
• 9:22
  Yeah.
• 9:25
  Well, it's crazy science.
• 9:26
  So based in Norfolk, the local track of Snedderton, which my mom lived near up until her passing away last year within three miles of the track.
• 9:34
  So that was our local track.
• 9:36
  And they used to have open test days.
• 9:38
  Literally anything would be out there all day long from eight till five, just run out.
• 9:42
  So you'd have like 60, 80 cars out there.
• 9:44
  And we used to also, because we were local, we had a good relationship with the circuit owner, Peter Steiner.
• 9:50
  It worked for McLaren, ultimately, when he left Snatterton Race Circuits.
• 9:55
  And anyway, he'd let us go out there and he said, listen, you're going to be out there as Roberto Aguero in a Formula One car.
• 10:01
  Of course, with a car, you don't have any mirrors.
• 10:03
  So we're out there and you come down towards the pits and there's a call to call Russell.
• 10:07
  It used to be just about flat out in a supercar.
• 10:11
  And I'm about to turn in and Roberto just passes me on the inside.
• 10:15
  And when you're sitting down in a go-kart, I mean, the rear wheel on an F1 car is up here.
• 10:19
  Do you know what I mean?
• 10:20
  He basically almost run me over.
• 10:21
  But...
• 10:22
  Just magic times.
• 10:24
  I also recall, speaking of F1 and Snedderton, we were there when Lotus and Mario Andretti were showing the track on the same day.
• 10:33
  We went out at the same time.
• 10:34
  They wouldn't allow it.
• 10:35
  Lotus didn't want any part of that.
• 10:36
  But Mario was there.
• 10:38
  They were padded up at the top.
• 10:40
  My dad and I had taken around on the car, and suddenly...
• 10:43
  Mario cruises down and back then I was more into bike racing than I was cars even though I was racing karts four wheels right but it was like the Barry Sheen Kenny Roberts here in mid 70s that was what I was brought up around so why the rag of the week would be motors motorcycle news versus motoring news just because there's more an affiliation between the kart engines and the bike engines but so I didn't really one the keen like
• 11:09
  grand prix watch or anything back then and but my dad was and he's like jesus mario andretti's come and have a chat with us and he was just so cool just like he is today just total legend came up peter walked walked down and mario's giving him out of time why am i only three seconds quicker than this kid in this cart around here and stuff like that so uh yeah just good times i mean snederton was our home track so many brilliant memories and uh
• 11:32
  Ultimately, when I went pro racing, I was with Russian Green, who were the big prep shop.
• 11:36
  They were based there.
• 11:38
  Then we built our own shop next door when we did our second year of Ford 2000.
• 11:42
  So Snedderton was kind of my home track and special place.
• 11:46
  Yeah, very.
• 11:47
  How were you kind of stitching deals together then?
• 11:49
  Because it's sort of early foray and…
• 11:52
  You know, your dad obviously had somewhere with all, but not an open check, did he?
• 11:57
  Yeah, my dad was a huge support.
• 11:58
  I mean, I will be doing what I'm doing today in the commentary world.
• 12:01
  He hadn't come up through racing without my dad's support.
• 12:04
  So he was brilliant.
• 12:05
  He loved it.
• 12:06
  You know, I mean, he wasn't mega wealthy, but anything he could tip in, he would.
• 12:11
  So initially we were paying for the karting ourselves.
• 12:13
  Then we went with Martin.
• 12:15
  So then we got in a sponsored rider in the karts.
• 12:17
  And then even when...
• 12:19
  uh ak came in and gave us the money there to uh race their car and do the racing uh there was still a little bit more that we had to grab so um he had a really good friend uh mickey um he used to sell phone products like phone that you have in the cushion of your seats um so he used to have a phone company uh locally but he and my dad were best mates they'd come on the road and get on the piss and all sorts of uh
• 12:42
  good times, but he used to love the racing.
• 12:43
  He's passionate about it.
• 12:45
  And, uh, never forget.
• 12:46
  He was, uh, we were in Zandvoort racing one year and, uh, I'm coming across the line in qualifying and it spits a rod right at the side of the, of the, of the motor.
• 12:55
  And it lands like right where my mechanic has got his pit board and the,
• 12:59
  Mickey, the sponsor, had to pay for it, but he thought it was the greatest thing.
• 13:01
  Like, he's got this bent and twisted con rod in his hand, thinking, not listening, because I was red hot when it came to the side of the road, but he had that on his shelf because he just loved that.
• 13:11
  Just what it was all the way, keep your foot in it.
• 13:13
  Yes, knock and just go for it, mate.
• 13:16
  So Little Mickey was a huge support, and we got through a couple of years of Formula Ford 2000, and then ultimately, in terms of how did I keep it going, I got the BP F3 ride in 1983, which wasn't a great year for us, but just fast-tracking here a little bit.
• 13:31
  That's how we kept it going.
• 13:32
  So the karting stuff got me in.
• 13:35
  This Greek company helped me out, and then Little Mickey was a huge supporter, and my dad was still helping just a little bit.
• 13:42
  as best he could.
• 13:43
  And then we got the BP deal.
• 13:45
  So that was massive.
• 13:47
  In the midst of all this, you get to meet Ethan Senna.
• 13:50
  And I think, am I right in saying here that when he first kind of arrived on the scene, you both were in different classes though, to begin with.
• 13:56
  Is that right?
• 13:57
  Yeah, so let me think about this.
• 13:59
  So I believe Senna came over to the UK.
• 14:02
  So Chico Serra, who did some F1 driving himself, Brazilian, he was like Senna's mentor, kind of advisor, and he kept telling Ralph Ferman, who I'm with Van Diemen, like, I'm going to bring you the man, and that was his nickname, the man who's going to come to the UK and race, and everyone's like, who's this, the man, you know?
• 14:20
  And anyway, so he finally arrived.
• 14:21
  I believe he did a little bit in 80, and then he did a full season of Formula Ford 1600 in 1981.
• 14:28
  So when I started with the cars, I just did three or four Formula Ford 1600 races in 80, and then immediately switched up to the slicks and wings, which was an easier transition for me from the car over to single-seaters.
• 14:42
  So I did Formula Ford 2000 one year in 1981.
• 14:46
  We ran out of money at the end of the year, so we didn't finish off the year, but then we kind of regrouped for 82.
• 14:51
  So Santa won the Formula Ford 1600 championships in 81.
• 14:56
  As I recall, he went back to Brazil, threatened to Ralph that he wasn't coming back, wasn't prepared to spend his dad's money to go racing.
• 15:04
  Had to be sponsored.
• 15:04
  Ralph said no way because he knew that Ayrton's dad had some money.
• 15:08
  So Ralph was playing the game.
• 15:09
  It was like a game of poker right down to the first race of the year.
• 15:13
  So we got our act together.
• 15:15
  we didn't have the money to buy Van Diemen, which was the car to have.
• 15:19
  So Royale, which was the only other competitor, well, there's two other cars, Delta and Royale.
• 15:26
  That's right.
• 15:27
  So we had three cars in the championship, but it was dominated by Van Diemen.
• 15:30
  They were the car to have.
• 15:32
  So we'd done a deal with Royale, with Alan Cornuk, who owned the company, to race for him in 82.
• 15:37
  And then right at the last minute, like a couple of weeks before the season, Senna was coming back, and Ralph was going to put in the Ford 2000 car.
• 15:44
  So we didn't know we were going to run against him.
• 15:46
  We knew that he was bionic in a Formula Ford 1600.
• 15:49
  So it was like, here we go.
• 15:51
  The goalposts had just been moved.
• 15:53
  We started the year in 82 with the Royale and I managed to finish when we're up to him the first three or four races and then everyone else in the Van Diemen kind of got their act together.
• 16:02
  So suddenly instead of finishing second, we were struggling to be on the podium.
• 16:05
  So we got a deal together.
• 16:08
  Mickey again chipped in some money, scrambled to do a deal with Ralph.
• 16:13
  He wasn't giving any cars away, but he managed to get one cheap.
• 16:16
  And we did the rest of the year in the Van Diemen.
• 16:18
  And then
• 16:19
  It was a good year.
• 16:20
  It was a fun memory, particularly in retrospect, understanding how great Aiton was.
• 16:25
  At the time, he was just another fast Brazilian kid, right?
• 16:28
  But we now know through history how great he was.
• 16:31
  But, yeah, I finished second 15 times in one year, Westy.
• 16:36
  And you can imagine how the majority of those were two.
• 16:39
  So, yeah, he was a little tough to beat, that's for sure.
• 16:43
  Did you get a sense of him as a competitor too?
• 16:46
  I think I'm right in saying you were on pole for one of the early races and come turn one, he was straight across and maybe had taken part of the front wing or the nose off or something or other.
• 16:57
  It was kind of, it was on, wasn't it?
• 17:00
  Yeah, I think that might have been the first race that we did in the Van Diemen.
• 17:04
  I think we got Paul Brands.
• 17:06
  I think I'm correct in that.
• 17:08
  And, yeah, he just, like, he was merciless, do you know what I mean?
• 17:11
  He was just, I mean, he had this self-confidence, quite rightly, because he was that good, that he shouldn't be touched.
• 17:18
  Yeah, he just felt he was at a different level, and no one should even get near him, whether it's qualifying or whatever.
• 17:24
  And, you know, he just felt like he shouldn't be touched.
• 17:27
  So, yeah, he ran over the front wing.
• 17:29
  And then, obviously, I was struggling for grip after that.
• 17:31
  But, yeah, we won pretty early.
• 17:33
  And then it was a struggle.
• 17:35
  I mean, where Ayrton was so good, particularly in the UK, where the weather is not as warm as we're seeing here today in South Carolina, is that...
• 17:43
  Very cool track temps, short races.
• 17:45
  So the opening laps were where he was just on it.
• 17:48
  Yeah.
• 17:49
  He just had such unbelievable car control, his feel for grip.
• 17:53
  Uh, whereas I could get there if I worked up to it, but those early, when I say early like lap one and two was where it gap you a little bit and then you could run the same pace, but.
• 18:05
  He's beat us to 12-lap races all over before you had a chance to eat a sandwich, and he's got another win.
• 18:11
  So that's what I worked on with the team, was to get better and get the confidence that I could do the same thing.
• 18:18
  And then by the end of the year, we were pushing him a little bit harder.
• 18:22
  We had a couple more wins.
• 18:25
  Yeah, he was a sensational talent.
• 18:28
  But, you know, we had another race at Snedderton, actually, which is a big race for us because that was the home base for both Van Diemen, Russian Green, who I had to ran with, our shop, which was right next to Russian Green.
• 18:41
  So we were in each other's space every day.
• 18:44
  Like the local CAF was a place called Ed's CAF, Ed Devlin, who's the father of Ben Devlin, who I actually worked with and managed for a little bit, going back a decade or so.
• 18:54
  So everyone would congregate down there.
• 18:56
  It was a real melting pops.
• 18:58
  You had so many racing teams and manufacturers in that area, and everyone would be in there.
• 19:04
  for lunch and that was not like as healthy as it was these days it was like fried sausage baked beans you know what's your choice today and um i remember one day uh we're in there and everyone's there's no spare table so out on has to come and sit on our table so he sits down and he had a fried lunch as well um but
• 19:26
  We're all digging in, like get the HP sauce, tomato ketchup, splurge all over and tuck in.
• 19:31
  And Aetan sat there for literally about two minutes, putting his ketchup, his salt and his pepper on the individual ingredients around the place rather than just spring on.
• 19:42
  And I'm just sitting there like, what's he up to?
• 19:45
  But that's just the way his mind thought about everything.
• 19:48
  Do you know what I mean?
• 19:48
  And I was like, well, I don't want pepper on my fried tomato.
• 19:51
  I only want on my egg.
• 19:52
  And I don't want salt on my egg.
• 19:53
  I only want on my fried tomato and vice versa.
• 19:56
  And it was just like unbelievable.
• 19:58
  And then after lunch, we'd all go up to the till, the register and pay.
• 20:02
  There's a couple of video games and there'd be his mechanics who I was super friendly with, even though I didn't like the fact that they chatted to me.
• 20:10
  We'd all group around and me and one of the other mechanics were like the better of the games.
• 20:14
  We'd never play.
• 20:15
  You'd just stand at the back of the crowd and have a look.
• 20:19
  And there was this sort of space invader type game.
• 20:23
  We could get to like this advanced level.
• 20:26
  We could never get through this next stage.
• 20:28
  We'd always stumble.
• 20:29
  We'd get a little bit closer to finish it.
• 20:31
  We couldn't figure it out.
• 20:32
  There's basically this little thing coming through a tunnel.
• 20:35
  You had to put it in reverse into fast forward so you could reverse it up to get through this tunnel.
• 20:39
  So we went and watched this and he could see that.
• 20:43
  He figured out what to do to get through the next level, but he'd never play with us.
• 20:46
  So apparently Ed said he would come down in the afternoon when everyone left, get good enough so he could get to our level.
• 20:52
  Then suddenly one day, anyone who won't have a go, he sticks his hand in the air.
• 20:55
  It was like, he never plays.
• 20:57
  And then he shows us how to do it.
• 20:59
  We had the...
• 21:01
  mental capacity to figure out what us pair of dummies were doing wrong every day, but he didn't want to embarrass himself.
• 21:05
  He had to go down, train, practice, then show us.
• 21:09
  That's how you do it and walk down.
• 21:11
  There you go.
• 21:11
  But, um, little insight anyway, it's just small potatoes, but, um, just an insight to what he was all about.
• 21:17
  It's a great story.
• 21:18
  I'm glad that you've, um, that you've shared that.
• 21:19
  You mentioned about the BP sponsorship before and, and F3, I think Martin Brundle is, uh, around in the mix here at, uh, at, at this stage too.
• 21:27
  And this is probably a little bit of a window in, um,
• 21:31
  you mentioned being in the right chassis before and so on and having the right power plant behind you and so on.
• 21:37
  When you got to that phase of your career, it was super imperative at that stage in that class of racing to have the right stuff behind you, wasn't it?
• 21:47
  It was.
• 21:48
  And, you know, it's really an excuse as to why we didn't have a great year.
• 21:54
  I mean, 83, we weren't super competitive.
• 21:57
  I mean, we had like...
• 21:59
  I don't know what it was, eight, nine, ten podiums maybe.
• 22:02
  We have a big year, like 20-plus races, right?
• 22:04
  So I'd say half the races we were on the podium, but we were never really, I felt, a genuine threat to win.
• 22:10
  It was the center in Brundle Show that year, and both Aiton and Martin had Toyota engines, so Aiton ran with Dick Bennett, which was regarded as like,
• 22:18
  the prime team.
• 22:19
  So he always positioned himself and everyone wanted him anyway.
• 22:23
  So he'd naturally have the opportunity to be with Dick Bennett.
• 22:27
  So I think you've had him on your podcast, super impressive guy.
• 22:30
  And Martin had the BP ride.
• 22:34
  I got the BP right on the back of the Formula 4 2000 years.
• 22:38
  So even though I didn't win and Ayrton kicked my backside, everyone recognized how good Ayrton was.
• 22:44
  And the fact that I'd given him a run for his money got me the deal for 83.
• 22:47
  So Martin lost it.
• 22:49
  I think he may have kept a little bit of associate money already.
• 22:52
  managed to wrangle a little bit out of BP, but I got the full sponsor.
• 22:56
  So it was Dave Price.
• 22:59
  God bless him.
• 22:59
  He's no longer with us.
• 23:00
  Dave Price Racing.
• 23:02
  And yeah, we had VW engines.
• 23:05
  So Aiton, Martin had Toyotas, Davey Jones, who finished third in the championship.
• 23:10
  I ultimately finished fourth.
• 23:12
  We had VWs.
• 23:13
  We had different engine builders.
• 23:14
  So
• 23:15
  we were on the back of the first race of the year.
• 23:17
  It was just like you're out there and every gear change, you just lost a little bit.
• 23:20
  So it was a frustrating year.
• 23:22
  I think,
• 23:25
  if I had it to do again, I was kind of shy back then.
• 23:28
  I wasn't really forceful in what I needed and stuff.
• 23:31
  So I just kind of sat back and let all this happen and let the year basically disintegrate.
• 23:36
  And I should have just been more forceful and demanded more and handled it differently, let's put it that way.
• 23:42
  And I'm not sure if anything could have been done, but just had a bit more self-belief.
• 23:48
  And I think it could have been a slightly different story, but they were gonna be tough for me, Nate.
• 23:53
  was incredible.
• 23:55
  Martin just had a brilliant year.
• 23:56
  He really stepped up.
• 23:58
  I think what Ayrton did, he'd, if you were close to him, like he did to me in 82, he got you to step up your own level.
• 24:05
  You dug a little bit deeper.
• 24:06
  You found a little bit more.
• 24:08
  And I think Martin, particularly with EJ on the side, Eddie Jordan kind of egged him on, gave him the confidence to go and give Ayrton a run for his money.
• 24:16
  So I think Ayrton won like the first
• 24:18
  eight or nine races that year.
• 24:20
  And then Martin came on strong like we did the year before, started to give him a run for his money and the championship went right down to the wire.
• 24:27
  But just incredible Formula 3 year.
• 24:29
  It's legendary.
• 24:30
  There's been lots of, you know, media around that year.
• 24:34
  But for me, when I got the BP deal, we also had a commitment, supposed commitment that, because when Tolman was sponsored by British Petroleum at the time, that I was going to get all these test days in the Formula One car alongside the F3 program.
• 24:48
  But right from the first month, that was obvious, like I was in the shadows of Edton and Martin and company.
• 24:54
  So it never, never happened.
• 24:56
  I never got my butt in the car, let alone test it.
• 24:58
  So, um,
• 25:00
  Alex Falkridge was the team manager there at Tallman at the time, and he immediately had his eyes on Ayrton, so even though I had the BP deal, he wanted to go after the Brazilian, which they ultimately got for 84, is when Ayrton started his F1 career with them.
• 25:26
  Enjoyed the walk down memory lane with Calvin who beamed in from the United States?
• 25:30
  Your love, Rusty's Where Are They Now, Epperson with Max Wilson in Brazil.
• 25:35
  What was the champ car thing like to drive?
• 25:36
  And I mean, back then, what are we talking?
• 25:38
  Probably Daria Franchitti, Paul Tracy, and there were some great names in that class, weren't there?
• 25:44
  All of those guys, including Alex Zanardi.
• 25:49
  I had a funny story with Zanardi because actually Zanardi and his manager were the two guys that sort of started my opportunity in America.
• 26:01
  Max went on to race supercars in Australia and fell in love with the place.
• 26:05
  Some cracking stories in that two-parter.
• 26:08
  Not sure why Rusty developed a Brazilian accent during that podcast though.
• 26:12
  Hopefully he doesn't go half British, half American while chatting with Calvin.
• 26:17
  Insert roll eyes emoji here.
• 26:21
  You've ended up doing a bit of driver management too.
• 26:24
  And some of that stuff you talked about there a moment ago around being a little more assertive and things like that, is that something you kind of share with the drivers about the need to be that way around what they need?
• 26:35
  Or is it more just from a managerial kind of position that you come at this?
• 26:41
  It depends on the driver.
• 26:42
  It depends on the person that you're representing.
• 26:45
  I mean –
• 26:48
  relationships are so important uh so i think that's number one i try to tell the guys that being likable is so important as well because i don't care who you are if you're kicking by every year you're gonna have a dip and you need people on your side so they're the things i tell any young driver whether it's someone we represent or just uh someone coming up or you meet in the paddock doing your broadcast stuff and giving some advice to um but it's very individual i mean some drivers you need to
• 27:15
  bring up, you know, when they're having a bit of a lull, you know, just, you know, make them understand, you know, the confidence factor is such a huge thing.
• 27:23
  Don't get too down on yourself.
• 27:24
  We can get this right.
• 27:25
  Can just send you to work on all the right things and you can get it back together.
• 27:29
  So, yeah, I think in general, just...
• 27:32
  having been in the industry for so long on both sides of the mic, obviously in terms of media and, you know, being someone that the media likes, it's not like you should have any favorites, but you've obviously done a lot of broadcasting and these guys you get along with and treat you well.
• 27:50
  And if they have a moment in a race, you should call it as you see it, but you're probably going to give them a softer touch.
• 27:56
  Then, you know, if someone, you know, is a bit of a, has a big ego and doesn't give you a lot of respect in the paddock, you're not going to give them such an easy time on the other side of the mic.
• 28:06
  So having those relationships is super important.
• 28:09
  But yeah, there's been, I wouldn't name names, but there's been a couple of high profile guys who have maybe started the year.
• 28:15
  not on the best footing.
• 28:17
  And I think my experience and just being able to talk to them and be confident and be a mentor to them during those periods is an asset.
• 28:25
  And yeah, but the driver management stuff is nothing that I really went out to try and
• 28:31
  Yeah, I didn't really look at it at the time when I started doing it as the next phase or an aside to the broadcasting.
• 28:38
  Just through having good friends who were drivers, I asked for advice.
• 28:42
  And Dan Wilden came to me back when he was doing like Formula 4 2000 over here in Indie Lights, for example, and asked me to rep him.
• 28:51
  At the time, I was
• 28:52
  way too busy i was broadcasting i was running the mid-ohio school the driving school there i was doing ride and drives i was off all the time and i said dan you need someone who's committed and can do it for you right because once someone says yes they got to deliver and uh so sam fornish's dad came to me and a couple of examples of guys who went on i went indy 500s right and um i said no to and then
• 29:17
  I mentioned Ed Devlin.
• 29:18
  Ben Devlin came to me.
• 29:19
  He was a UK guy who was over here racing in sports cars, so I helped him out a little bit.
• 29:24
  And the first person I really got into, I continue to work with today, is Joey Hand, who was here just yesterday, left this morning, played some golf over the last couple of days.
• 29:32
  So I've been working with Joey since 2011, and I've never really done, it's not like I have dozens of guys, but I've had the most I've ever had at one time is six.
• 29:41
  I've got four guys I work with currently, so...
• 29:44
  I just recognize when you say yes, you better realize, you know, you might got all your article, your other boxes in terms of family stuff.
• 29:52
  And, you know, you're broadcasting this Monday.
• 29:55
  You don't really have a day off if you've got a driver who's out of a ride or you're trying to make the next step for them moving down the line.
• 30:01
  So I don't take those decisions lightly in terms of saying, yes, I'll work with you.
• 30:05
  It has to work on both sides and be a good fit.
• 30:09
  Neil Crompton has a great line about the university of motor racing, right?
• 30:12
  So you've kind of self-taught in, in that regard, but you've come at this from a driver perspective.
• 30:16
  You, you know, you've walked that road, um, as well before.
• 30:20
  Was it a chance thing that sort of, I've digressed from the race career here, which we'll come back to, but was it a chance thing that you ventured into, into that?
• 30:28
  And, and, uh, do you enjoy that side of it?
• 30:31
  Are you talking driver management or media stuff?
• 30:33
  Management?
• 30:33
  Yeah.
• 30:33
  Yeah.
• 30:34
  No, I really do enjoy, I love doing a deal.
• 30:37
  Um, you know, I like,
• 30:39
  being proactive in terms of thinking ahead when I do the broadcasting.
• 30:42
  I love the strategy side.
• 30:43
  I love thinking about what happens now.
• 30:44
  How is that going to affect the race in an hour or two's time, depending on the length of the race?
• 30:49
  And I think working with drivers is just kind of forecasting, seeing the lay of the land, trying to identify where there may be some movement.
• 30:56
  And going from there, it's been a little bit more difficult.
• 31:00
  We do so much of the broadcasting now.
• 31:02
  So when I'm on site at Racetrack, broadcasting is my number one gig.
• 31:06
  But obviously, you're having conversations.
• 31:08
  You're feeling the pulse of what's going on in the industry.
• 31:10
  So you have a bit of a feel for what's going on with movement.
• 31:12
  So we do so much of the broadcasting now remotely from the studio.
• 31:17
  So you're not always in the paddock feeling the pulse quite as much.
• 31:21
  So...
• 31:22
  conversations face-to-face are way different to what you have on the end of a telephone or a text.
• 31:26
  So that's changed the game a little bit.
• 31:29
  But even so, you establish relationships.
• 31:32
  And it always reminds me when you're back on site how many people you do know.
• 31:37
  And the wonderful chemistry within the racing world is really fun.
• 31:43
  I love what I do.
• 31:45
  uh, with the driver management.
• 31:47
  I, I really enjoy the broadcasting.
• 31:49
  We, we work with some great guys in, in terms of our broadcast team and, um, just love the passion that everyone brings to it.
• 31:56
  So it's been great.
• 31:57
  And I think I'm hoping I've got another five, 10 years left in the broadcast booth, but, um, at some point your shelf life is going to end.
• 32:05
  And, um, I've tried to do just from a business standpoint, it's kind of create this other side with the, uh,
• 32:10
  driver representation-wise, continue to do for a few more years after the broadcasting.
• 32:16
  You have retained your youthful looks, you bastard, so you'll be fine in terms of years up your sleeve, I think.
• 32:23
  I'm not dying the bonnet yet, though, so I still...
• 32:26
  I'm not doing that either.
• 32:27
  Don't worry.
• 32:28
  Still original.
• 32:29
  Yeah, exactly.
• 32:30
  Exactly.
• 32:31
  Let's come back to the UK for a second here.
• 32:33
  We're kind of, as we get to the midpoint of your career and the switch to America, I want to wrap up things in the UK.
• 32:40
  a Tommy Byrne story because you get to hang out with him probably, you know, I mean, it's a great book that people must read, Crash and Byrne.
• 32:48
  Just tell us about kind of early crossing paths with him.
• 32:51
  One of the straightest talkers that we've seen in motor racing, which is, you know, man, impacted his career, but boy, he's got some talent and had some talent back then, didn't he?
• 33:02
  Yeah, he really did.
• 33:03
  So when I first started racing Formula 4 2000, we spoke about 81.
• 33:08
  Tommy is my teammate at Russian Green.
• 33:10
  So he was like Ralph's placed guy with Russian Green.
• 33:12
  He was the man.
• 33:13
  Ralph supported that car.
• 33:15
  And I was like a customer car, essentially.
• 33:17
  We were paying for the ride alongside Tommy.
• 33:19
  So Tommy's been and done everything, right?
• 33:22
  But we were good mates.
• 33:23
  I mean, he kind of took me under his wing a little bit.
• 33:26
  And I'll tell a quick story, which...
• 33:30
  Tommy always gives me a hard time by telling that.
• 33:32
  So with the Van Diemen, the rear right height was super important.
• 33:36
  And typically you ran anywhere.
• 33:37
  And it wasn't a massive difference, say an inch and three quarters to two inches.
• 33:42
  So we'd had a rough session.
• 33:43
  Balance wasn't good.
• 33:44
  And we're chatting in the transport.
• 33:46
  And I say, hey, Tommy, what's your rear right height?
• 33:49
  He says an inch and nine eighths.
• 33:51
  I said, inch and nine-eighths.
• 33:53
  He said, inch and nine-eighths.
• 33:55
  I said, Tommy, do you mean two and an eighth or an inch and seven-eighths?
• 33:59
  He said, an inch and nine-eighths.
• 34:01
  I said, Tommy, a couple of inches and nine-eighths.
• 34:03
  I only thought there were ten-eighths and an inch.
• 34:08
  Oh, that's awesome.
• 34:11
  But again, yeah, it's just a teaser, Tommy.
• 34:13
  But just talent, just to burn, no pun intended.
• 34:17
  I mean, he just...
• 34:20
  He was just so quick.
• 34:21
  He had such a high confidence level, like almost to the cocky level.
• 34:26
  He used to piss off the best in the business.
• 34:27
  The Ron Dennis McLaren story is a legendary.
• 34:30
  I think it's about 50% true, some of the stories that have been out there.
• 34:33
  I was there the day when he got the prize McLaren test.
• 34:39
  We'd been testing someone else, and I showed up there at Silverstone, and he was out there and went about a second quicker than John Watson did that day.
• 34:46
  And there are stories about not having full throttle and the rest of it.
• 34:51
  Tommy, you know, I tell Ron Dennis, if anyone can go quicker than that, they can stick their cucumber sandwich up their rear end and stuff like that.
• 34:57
  But, um, but he definitely had that aloofness and that belief.
• 35:01
  And that used to drive my dad absolutely bonkers because my dad's like trying to mentor me and get me to do all the right things.
• 35:07
  And Tommy is like, so outside of that box in terms of pissing people off, but people loved him.
• 35:13
  He's a fun character and, um, but just talent.
• 35:17
  It was incredible.
• 35:18
  And then,
• 35:19
  You know, he always seemed to have the upper hand on me back then.
• 35:23
  And I think when he came to the States, he was super successful, and we kind of met again.
• 35:27
  It was called ARS, Indy Lights, essentially.
• 35:30
  I did it in 88, and Tommy had already done a couple of years.
• 35:32
  So when I competed against him at that time, I think I'd gotten a little bit better.
• 35:40
  I'd got more confident.
• 35:41
  But I think Tommy had softened his demeanor a little bit.
• 35:45
  And I'll be honest with you, I think it took a little bit of edge off.
• 35:48
  So I think Tommy really –
• 35:52
  you know, elevated his game and ran at a much higher level with that brashness and that cockiness.
• 35:57
  That was an asset for him.
• 35:59
  That was a positive thing to have in his arsenal, whereas I think there are some other people that doesn't work that way.
• 36:04
  So everyone, when you asked about, you know, helping young drivers out, I think everyone's different.
• 36:09
  Everyone responds to different things and has different personalities.
• 36:12
  But there were many great stories off the track, which I probably can't really get into in the
• 36:19
  in the public arena here.
• 36:20
  But yeah, let's just say we had a lot of fun times on the road.
• 36:24
  That's for sure.
• 36:32
  That's the end of part one of my podcast with driver, commentator and manager, Calvin Fish.
• 36:37
  Now, because he's a good bloke, he's kindly stuck around for a part two on this feature episode, which is all loaded up and ready for you to enjoy whenever suits.
• 36:47
  Just head back to the garage library and hit the gas.
• 36:50
  There's good takeaways for aspiring racers, those who might have a passion for broadcasting and perhaps even a life lesson or two on reinventing podcasts.
• 37:00
  and committing to that with the same mindset that helped him win races as a junior against a very competitive field.
• 37:08
  And I know there's still lots more laps to come for Calvin Fish.