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CAK: Your Money, Your Right · The Mwango Capital Podcast

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Good morning,
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good afternoon,
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good evening,
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wherever you're joining us from.
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SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this edition of the Muanbo Spaces.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to start with a conversation here with Peter Muthiki from CAK.
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I know CAK is one of those parts of government that for some
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individuals it might
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SPEAKER_01: not necessarily be that well known.
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SPEAKER_01: It's among the younger regulators that we have.
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SPEAKER_01: Peter, give us an introduction to CAK.
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SPEAKER_01: What do you guys do and why should Kenyan taxpayers pay attention?
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Rama.
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SPEAKER_00: Also,
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SPEAKER_00: thank you to Mwango Capital for hosting us,
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SPEAKER_00: the committee and I,
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SPEAKER_00: for representing the authority.
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SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned,
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SPEAKER_00: yes,
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SPEAKER_00: the truth of the matter is sometimes,
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SPEAKER_00: unless we've made a big announcement,
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SPEAKER_00: penalizing a party here or there,
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SPEAKER_00: or maybe a merger or a requisition,
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SPEAKER_00: which instructions,
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SPEAKER_00: some people don't quite know us.
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SPEAKER_00: Some people may not know about CAK.
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SPEAKER_00: So we are the Competition Authority of Kenya, not CA.
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SPEAKER_00: Competition Authority of Kenya is a regulator.
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SPEAKER_00: We are domiciled under the Treasury, the National Treasury.
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SPEAKER_00: We are located at CBK Pension Towers in town.
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SPEAKER_00: That's along Harambe Avenue on 15th floor of that building.
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SPEAKER_00: We are a multicultural regulator.
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SPEAKER_00: Our mandate, so to speak, is too prompt.
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We deal with matters of competition and also we deal with
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consumer protection.
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I'll just give a brief highlight of each,
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then we'll dive right into the conversation.
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SPEAKER_00: Number one, I've just mentioned mergers and acquisitions.
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SPEAKER_00: We analyze mergers.
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SPEAKER_00: That reaches a certain threshold.
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You have 500 million Kenya shillings in terms of combined
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assets or turnover,
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SPEAKER_00: whichever is higher.
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Then an obligation to seek approval from the authority before
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you merge with
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SPEAKER_00: another company or before you buy another company to become one.
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SPEAKER_00: We have no problem.
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SPEAKER_00: People merging.
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SPEAKER_00: People merge for various reasons.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's a good thing.
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SPEAKER_00: However,
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we are cognizant of the fact that left unmitigated mergers or
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acquisitions can have
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SPEAKER_00: a negative impact on competition.
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SPEAKER_00: For instance,
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SPEAKER_00: if you're just three companies that are in a space,
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SPEAKER_00: perhaps let's talk about telecom sector.
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Imagine a scenario where the bigger player just buys off
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everyone's retailers.
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SPEAKER_00: Assume we only have one retailer operating perhaps in Nairobi.
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SPEAKER_00: You as a consumer, you don't have choice.
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The player themselves would be so big that they could do harm
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to you as a consumer.
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They could price their products or services without more or
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less caring about the
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SPEAKER_00: impact it will have on the consumer.
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SPEAKER_00: That's mergers and acquisitions.
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So think about NIC,
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CBA,
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to become NCBA,
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transactions to do with Coca-Cola.
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SPEAKER_00: There are quite a number in different spaces in the horticulture sector.
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SPEAKER_00: There are so many of them.
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SPEAKER_00: Number two, we have enforcement and compliance.
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SPEAKER_00: So enforcement and compliance is the core of what we do.
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And perhaps people think that's only what we do in terms of
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competition enforcement.
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But that department deals with ensuring that there's effective
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competition in the market,
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SPEAKER_00: that the players in various markets are playing by the rules.
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Think about things like abyss of dominance,
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and you have over 50% of a market.
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And you start behaving in a manner that trying to infringe or
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trying to kill other competitors.
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SPEAKER_00: So once we find evidence that you've done that,
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SPEAKER_00: it's a bridge of dominance,
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SPEAKER_00: a cartelization where several players we did steel two years ago,
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SPEAKER_00: penalized 14 players,
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close to 800 million Kenya shillings for being in a cartel in
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the steel sector.
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SPEAKER_00: There was paints around four players.
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SPEAKER_00: We penalized them around 40 million.
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SPEAKER_00: These are investigations.
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SPEAKER_00: These are just samples.
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That's a catalyzation market allocation where a player says or
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determines that you
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SPEAKER_00: as a rammer,
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SPEAKER_00: perhaps you're supplying,
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SPEAKER_00: you cannot go beyond this region or another region.
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SPEAKER_00: So you as a consumer, again, you don't have choice and all that.
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SPEAKER_00: And competitive conduct,
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that's what actually falls under this department called
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enforcement and compliance.
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The compliance bit of that name in the department is that once
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we make even a
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SPEAKER_00: determination on a merger,
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SPEAKER_00: we sometimes place conditions on the parties.
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For instance,
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don't fire employees within this period,
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maintain contracts with SMEs.
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So the department thereafter comes to check that the rules or
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the conditions we
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SPEAKER_00: applied are being adhered to.
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SPEAKER_00: Again,
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SPEAKER_00: if we find cartels,
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we tell them to enter into a competition compliance program to
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understand the
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SPEAKER_00: benefits for our mandate and the benefits of effective competition.
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So the department goes in after the fact to check that what we
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did or what we
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SPEAKER_00: applied is being adhered to.
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And also if we make a policy,
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more or less a policy change,
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then what happens?
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SPEAKER_00: What happened two, three years down the line?
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Did it have the intended impact or were there unintended
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consequences which we
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SPEAKER_00: perhaps need to revise?
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SPEAKER_00: Then lastly, the technical department we have is called buyer power.
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SPEAKER_00: The most famous case involves one of the top retailers in Kenya.
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We penalize them at some point because buyer power is an
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instance where there's a
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SPEAKER_00: buyer here who has power.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'll explain the buyer.
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The buyer is someone who controls an infrastructure that is so
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important that
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SPEAKER_00: people supplying them with goods or services that they may,
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SPEAKER_00: for whatever reason,
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SPEAKER_00: misuse this power.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think insurance is...
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SPEAKER_00: Companies, an insurance company has suppliers under them.
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SPEAKER_00: So they're the buyer, the insurance company, and they have suppliers.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's assume it's something to do with motor vehicle repair.
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SPEAKER_00: You have an accident or an incident with your vehicle.
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SPEAKER_00: They're garage owners.
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They're motor vehicle assessors who check the costing of the
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damage to the vehicle.
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So these are suppliers to the buyer,
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in this case being the insurance company.
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The people who supply groceries to the supermarket,
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the buyer in this case is a supermarket.
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SPEAKER_00: So this can be replayed obviously across many sectors.
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SPEAKER_00: So the buyer,
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SPEAKER_00: in this case,
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SPEAKER_00: when they're sitting on a bargaining table,
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SPEAKER_00: they tend to hold a lot of power.
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SPEAKER_00: So abuse of that power manifests in various ways.
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SPEAKER_00: They refuse to deal, they don't want to deal with someone.
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they may delay your payments you agree that you'll be paid
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every three months and
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five months down the line they still not paid you and any
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attempt to seek them to
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honor your invoices powers are met with hostility sometimes
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even threatening of the
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termination of the contract or the contract is actually
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terminated so that abuse of
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buyer power is again a key element of what we do so the last
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bit is what the fourth
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SPEAKER_00: technical department is under consumer protection
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SPEAKER_00: This is the focus of our discussion today.
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SPEAKER_00: So as a consumer, you're protected in the Constitution.
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SPEAKER_00: The Competition Act, again, has elements of consumer protection.
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We receive complaints or we go to the market and check that
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people are not
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SPEAKER_00: infringing upon the rights of consumers.
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SPEAKER_00: And that is what Mr.
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SPEAKER_00: Kamiti,
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SPEAKER_00: the manager in charge of that department,
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SPEAKER_00: is going to discuss today.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'll allow him to come in.
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And I think that's about it in terms of an overview of what the
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authority does.
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SPEAKER_00: Mr. Kamiti.
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Thank you,
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Rama,
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and Mwanko Capital,
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and the opportunities on consumer protection issues.
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The Consumer Protection Department and staff are investigating
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and physically
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SPEAKER_02: enhancing the welfare of consumers in the Kenyan economy.
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We get this mandate from the constitution when the provisions
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of the Competition
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SPEAKER_02: Act on Consumer Welfare come into play.
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The various provisions or the various sources to which we
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undertake these investigations
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SPEAKER_02: We have false or misleading representations.
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SPEAKER_02: We run questionable conduct.
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SPEAKER_02: We look at aspects of productivity and inter-productivity.
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SPEAKER_02: We can be able to receive complaints.
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A lot from consumers are yourselves,
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but we also have a mandate to go out into the public.
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SPEAKER_02: We undertake mystery shopping.
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SPEAKER_02: We go out and purchase products or look at services and see whether their
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SPEAKER_01: vaccination is on the range.
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I've just put up a link to the 2023-2024 annual report that CAK
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put out quite recently,
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SPEAKER_01: just so that some of our listeners can essentially just read that and
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SPEAKER_01: At the leisure,
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I'll pull along and see exactly what cases that we're talking
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about when it comes
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SPEAKER_01: to consumer protection.
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SPEAKER_01: Later on,
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SPEAKER_01: as the entire conversation does continue,
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SPEAKER_01: but I want to start with the fundamental things.
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We often really just do not think about consumer rights,
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at least not in this marketplace.
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SPEAKER_01: We have an idea when we've done wrong, built a bad hat.
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SPEAKER_01: in our service, by a service provider, by people we buy things from.
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But what are the key consumer rights that all of us think
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should be aware of?
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It is very true that there are key consumer rights that every
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candidate should be aware of.
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SPEAKER_02: Most of us are not aware of this.
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The first one is consumers have a right to goals and values of
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reasonable quality.
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SPEAKER_02: As I indicated,
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all these rights are entrenched in the article for the state of
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the Constitution of Canada.
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And the second right is that consumers have a right to
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information necessary for
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SPEAKER_02: them to gain full benefit from goods and services,
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meaning that when you go to a supermarket and purchase
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something or you go to a
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SPEAKER_02: financial services sector to get a facility alone,
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SPEAKER_02: then you need to be given information.
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SPEAKER_02: Information.
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You have a right to that information so that you are able to
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gain full benefits
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from the tax that you have bought or the savings that you want
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from the third supplier.
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The third right is consumers have a right to protection of
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disability and economic care.
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SPEAKER_02: In fact,
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SPEAKER_02: when we talk about the rights to the protection of their safety,
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SPEAKER_02: we look at the product fit,
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SPEAKER_02: we look at what you have spent on that particular product or stuff.
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And the last few is the consumer that has a right to
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compensation for loss or
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SPEAKER_02: injury arising from dishes and goods and services.
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because you have a right to be given that balance that is the
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constant of the
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SPEAKER_02: amount that you have paid for that product or service.
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And if there is a channel that will require that you are
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regarded at the money that
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SPEAKER_02: you have spent or the aspect of preplating,
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then you have a right to get that sort of regret for any loss
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or agent arising from
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SPEAKER_02: defects in goods and services.
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SPEAKER_01: One of the things that strikes me,
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just going through some of the cases that CAK has dealt with
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right over the years,
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the impression I get is that companies essentially are abusing
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a position.
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SPEAKER_01: It's an abuser by a part in some senses,
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SPEAKER_01: because a lot of these cases only get resolved once a regulator shows up.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll read some examples here so our audience can follow along.
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SPEAKER_01: Margaret Muhacki versus Chico Sacco.
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The complainant withdrew her membership from the Sacco,
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but she was not refunded the savings.
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But the complainant was refunded only after the authority had intervened.
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SPEAKER_01: In e-commerce,
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SPEAKER_01: for example,
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SPEAKER_01: Colleen Sinjarou versus Killimall,
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SPEAKER_01: the complainant bought two items on the Killimall app.
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SPEAKER_01: One item was missing in the pickup station,
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SPEAKER_01: but the delivery note indicated that both items are not packaged.
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And Killimall was insisting that both items had been dispatched
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to the pickup
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SPEAKER_01: station for collection.
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But only after intervention by CAK did Killimall then deliver
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the item in question.
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SPEAKER_01: And there are quite a few of these that come up.
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Is the general attitude that I guess you encounter that
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companies feel because
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SPEAKER_01: they've not been held to account in the past.
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SPEAKER_01: Therefore,
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there's certain behavior that's become entrenched in the
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marketplace so they feel
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SPEAKER_01: they can get a leap.
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SPEAKER_02: If indeed, that's a great step of fielding authority.
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SPEAKER_02: Yes, each time we handle some of these complaints.
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And that's where our role comes in protecting consumers from a
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business practice.
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Because if we do not come in with them,
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the rights of consumers are greatly violated.
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SPEAKER_02: But even as we resolve these complaints,
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one important thing we do is to be able to create awareness and
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to ensure that we
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SPEAKER_02: answer them.
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SPEAKER_02: is that we go ahead to educate these businesses.
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We sit down with them and educate them about the need to
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enhance the rights of consumers.
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And our role is really spelled out under the Competition Act of
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Parable 4.
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SPEAKER_02: And how do we do that?
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SPEAKER_02: We do that through various ways.
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Other than receiving complaints from consumers,
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we initiate investigation into policy.
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issues,
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and especially those with maybe systemic,
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or that will empower the population.
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SPEAKER_02: Talking about the example that she gave on this hack,
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SPEAKER_02: is that once we receive the plant and resolve,
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SPEAKER_02: we do,
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SPEAKER_02: we work with the regulator,
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SPEAKER_02: because there's a regulator in place,
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where we inform them about this complaint that we have
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conceived and how we have handled them.
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SPEAKER_02: But again,
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we go ahead to look at whether this contract is widespread and
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see that the
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SPEAKER_02: contract is probably widespread,
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SPEAKER_02: then we're coming to take the gap.
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SPEAKER_02: I'll give you an example.
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SPEAKER_02: In the pre-issues of transparency and disclosure,
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SPEAKER_02: transactions conducted by mobile phone,
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SPEAKER_02: then we did not just look at one digital financial service.
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SPEAKER_02: We looked at all the providers of digital services,
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SPEAKER_02: from the telecoms to the digital loan app to the banking sector.
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And then we came up with the requirement where they were
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supposed to disclose feed
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SPEAKER_02: after the transaction was conducted.
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SPEAKER_02: And that was about six months to one year later,
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we noticed that the awareness levels of consumers on feed
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requirements for
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transactions conducted through the mobile phone increased from
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as low as 25% to as
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SPEAKER_02: high of 90%.
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SPEAKER_02: So we deleted that.
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SPEAKER_02: This really impacted quite a number of consumers.
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So we are able to intervene in various ways to carry out
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studies and campaigns to
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SPEAKER_02: engage consumers.
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SPEAKER_02: To be able to point out all these issues that you,
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SPEAKER_02: given the example that you have indicated,
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SPEAKER_02: is that we come in to advise the government upon consumer report issues.
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SPEAKER_02: For example, we give an advice
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But you mentioned the next area I want to go into,
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digital lending,
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e-commerce.
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SPEAKER_02: Here,
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SPEAKER_02: it's fairly ubiquitous now for most Kenyans,
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SPEAKER_02: anyway,
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SPEAKER_02: to be using mobile money by default rather than paying the thing in cash.
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SPEAKER_01: But there's always this interesting example that comes up, or
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SPEAKER_01: non-disclosure of what's charged with a specific transaction.
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SPEAKER_01: So for example, you could pay for parking with your SSD.
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SPEAKER_01: You may not always be told,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: by the way,
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SPEAKER_01: to do this,
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SPEAKER_01: we're going to charge you X amount of money,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: So there'll be the parking fee,
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but then we're going to deduct X amount of money out of your
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airtime in order to
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SPEAKER_01: facilitate the service.
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SPEAKER_01: And that may not be properly disclosed.
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How do we handle that sort of behavior in the marketplace where
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companies will be making money?
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SPEAKER_01: We're not saying they don't have the right to make cash,
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but there's no proper disclosure of all the fees involved in a transaction.
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SPEAKER_02: Indeed,
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all feed and cargings need to be disclosed to a consumer prior
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to conducting a transfraction.
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SPEAKER_02: So you're keen for packing.
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SPEAKER_02: and you're using either a USB or any other phone,
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SPEAKER_02: especially the digital phone,
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SPEAKER_02: then you need to be aware of how to charge.
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We are seeing that we have started receiving what I would say
14:17
is a requirement on this phone.
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And what we normally do as much as we may not have received
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that particular
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SPEAKER_02: complaint from any own consumers,
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SPEAKER_02: what we do is that we proceed to handle that.
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SPEAKER_02: And if you look at specialties and unquestionable conduct or act,
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SPEAKER_02: there's a provision,
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there's a clause that indicates that a supplier who is a player
14:43
of the financial
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SPEAKER_02: services needs to disclose specialties,
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SPEAKER_02: buy-key insurance,
14:48
or any public needs to disclose all the fees and charges
14:52
associated with that
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SPEAKER_02: particular transaction.
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and WorkSphere Authority has started doing as much as we have
14:58
not seen any
14:59
SPEAKER_02: particular complaint on this.
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We have started engaging some of these companies because they
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need to disclose some
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SPEAKER_02: sort of timing at the point where you're making the payment,
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SPEAKER_02: that if you're using USSD to make payment,
15:14
then the transaction cost is going to be pensions because of
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things that have
15:18
SPEAKER_02: recharged customers for such a transaction.
15:21
But what has also been made available is the opportunity for
15:26
you to conduct a transaction.
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SPEAKER_02: I'll give you an example.
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That's why there's the field that is disclosed to conducting a transaction.
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SPEAKER_02: So if you're not happy
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SPEAKER_02: that you're going to be charged 10 units on top of that,
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SPEAKER_02: then you have the opportunity to press 2 to cancel the transaction,
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SPEAKER_02: and then proceed to pay cash.
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SPEAKER_02: You might ask, what if I did not have cash, and you only had that USP?
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SPEAKER_02: Is that, you know, that is the choice that has been created.
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SPEAKER_02: However,
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we still insist that there should be some sort of silence at
16:03
the point of paying,
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SPEAKER_02: saying that while using USP,
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There's going to be a transactional cost that you're going to
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be charged.
16:11
One of the things that a lot of our listeners will see when
16:14
they're reading through
16:15
some of the cases they're referring to in terms of consumer
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protection is that
16:18
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of referral in some cases to other regulators.
16:21
There are cases that end up being handled by the Civil Aviation Authority,
16:24
for example.
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SPEAKER_01: There are others, like for example, you're working with Sanstrat.
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SPEAKER_01: the SACO regulate and so on and so forth.
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SPEAKER_01: How does that usually work?
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SPEAKER_01: So say,
16:33
SPEAKER_01: for example,
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SPEAKER_01: in a hypothetical situation that someone's got an issue with their SACO,
16:36
SPEAKER_01: they come to you with a complaint.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Then what happens at that point?
16:39
Do you have jurisdiction over that matter because it's a
16:42
consumer protection issue
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SPEAKER_01: or does it have to be handled collaboratively with SACO?
16:48
One thing I'd like to indicate is that the competition
16:52
authority obtaining has the
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SPEAKER_02: overall mandate,
16:56
SPEAKER_02: our consumer protection,
16:58
SPEAKER_02: and we look at that across all sectors.
17:00
And when we receive such a complaint is that we have procedures
17:05
which we use to
17:06
SPEAKER_02: assess the complaint.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: And at first instance, we can proceed to handle it.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: But what you do first is that we tell the person who has complained,
17:16
SPEAKER_02: we ask them,
17:17
did you report this matter to that particular undertaking that
17:23
has agreed to you?
17:25
And if they reported that it was not resolved,
17:27
then you can proceed to handle it.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: Because you want to give an opportunity to the accused party
17:33
SPEAKER_02: to resolve the matter.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: But if it has not been resolved, then we can proceed to assessing.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes,
17:40
SPEAKER_02: as we assess the matter,
17:42
SPEAKER_02: we could establish that there is a lot of technical aspects to make.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: There are complaints that we receive,
17:50
SPEAKER_02: for example,
17:50
insurance services that touches on respectable issues relating
17:55
to the insurance.
17:58
Or could they still complain with regarding motor vehicles or
18:01
some physical
18:03
SPEAKER_02: problems that are technically weird?
18:05
SPEAKER_02: And at that point,
18:07
SPEAKER_02: it really invokes the proposition that we have within the law,
18:11
SPEAKER_02: because under Section 668,
18:13
we can be able to form such complaints to the relevant
18:17
government agencies for resolution.
18:19
And we don't just rule our act for the most of the regulations
18:24
that you have indicated.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: For example,
18:27
SPEAKER_02: even Communications Authority,
18:28
SPEAKER_02: Insurance Regulatory Authority,
18:30
SPEAKER_02: EK,
18:31
SPEAKER_02: Central Bank of Kenya,
18:32
SPEAKER_02: we have...
18:33
SPEAKER_02: in a random of understandings that we have changed.
18:37
And it is through that avenue that we are able to forward this
18:42
conference to parent
18:44
SPEAKER_02: people who resolve it.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: So that's how we do it.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: We don't investigate the matter together,
18:49
SPEAKER_02: is that we undertake our first assessment,
18:51
SPEAKER_02: and if it is something that we can proceed with,
18:54
SPEAKER_02: then the ecology proceeds with that work.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: It becomes something that we feel is highly technical in nature,
19:00
SPEAKER_02: then we forward to the relevant everybody to
19:04
SPEAKER_01: The other trend that I see emerging,
19:05
SPEAKER_01: at least in some of the cases that you've had to deal with,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: is a situation where,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: for example,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: someone comes in,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: they've got a constraint,
19:12
SPEAKER_01: but they're not able to substantiate.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: I'll give you an example here.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: There's one in the annual report of Anthony Bambuara versus Mogo,
19:19
SPEAKER_01: where the complainants took a local loan of around $1,600,
19:24
SPEAKER_01: but the sum was dispersed in the cash link.
19:26
He was required to repay it in US dollars using the prevailing
19:29
exchange rate,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: but even after making payments of
19:32
SPEAKER_01: 1,246 US dollars.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Morgos still said he owed them another 630.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And in this instance,
19:38
the complainant failed to provide the evidence in support with
19:41
allegations and the
19:42
SPEAKER_01: case was closed.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: So even if consumers come to the UK,
19:46
SPEAKER_01: at the very least,
19:47
it's important to have all the documentation in hand to support
19:51
the allegations
19:51
SPEAKER_01: that they're making against a firm and so on and so forth.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: The ultimate idea here is that if I'm coming to you as a complainant,
19:57
SPEAKER_01: I need to have the data in hand,
19:59
SPEAKER_01: receipts,
20:00
SPEAKER_01: proof of purchase,
20:01
SPEAKER_01: communication of the firm,
20:02
SPEAKER_01: rather than just showing up and saying,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: so-and-so screwed me over.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: They provided this service,
20:06
SPEAKER_01: so they provided this good,
20:07
SPEAKER_01: or I paid them for a service that they did not deliver.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: But I need to have evidence in hands to prove that case.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: You're very right,
20:14
SPEAKER_02: but some of the consumers that come to us,
20:16
SPEAKER_02: or those who complain to us,
20:18
SPEAKER_02: we realize they did not have any evidence.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: The authority obviously is subject to the Fair Administrative Action Act.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: We have to be fair to all parties, consumers, and both beginners.
20:30
And some of the biggest misconceptions that Kenyans have about
20:33
consumer rights and
20:34
SPEAKER_02: consumer issues is the application of their responsibilities.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: And go ahead and penalize some of these businesses.
20:41
And we found instances where consumers have lodged complaints
20:46
and they do not have
20:47
the evidence or theory that there's an element of where the
20:51
consumer is not telling
20:52
SPEAKER_02: the truth.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: And we are trying to educate consumers as much as possible.
20:58
The first thing that you have indicated that they need to have
21:01
evidential information.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: They need to keep their risk.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: When you make a purchase,
21:05
SPEAKER_02: then you need to keep your receipt,
21:07
SPEAKER_02: you need to keep your warranty card,
21:09
the agreement that you have been given for a service that you
21:12
are thinking we
21:13
SPEAKER_02: better particularly provide them.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: And most importantly,
21:17
SPEAKER_02: the first obligation,
21:19
SPEAKER_02: the first line of defense is you and the consumer purchasing the product.
21:23
When you go to the supermarket to purchase a product,
21:27
you're still obligated to redo the labels.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: If it's the price start on the shelf,
21:32
SPEAKER_02: then you're obligated to know what the price is or the product itself.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: Then you need to work through the list of ingredients or
21:40
the nutritional equal mention and to check whether the equal
21:43
mention that you have
21:44
been given is good enough for you to be able to consume that
21:48
particular problem.
21:49
Then also for services and loans that you have taken from these
21:53
financial providers
21:54
SPEAKER_02: that you find that most consumers do not pay the terms on conditions.
21:59
The appearance of the world will not be able to lead on returns
22:02
and conditions.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: It is because the small in farms or they are too legalistic.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: But what we have seen,
22:08
SPEAKER_02: the trend that is going on nowadays in financial service organizations,
22:12
SPEAKER_02: especially financial service providers,
22:15
have seen that what they need to disclose to consumers is
22:19
information which is very...
22:21
SPEAKER_02: Right now,
22:22
SPEAKER_02: when you go for a loan to any bank,
22:25
then they're going to give you a separate document which shows
22:28
the total cost.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: And that way,
22:30
you're given the information for you to make a decision on
22:34
whether you'd want your
22:35
SPEAKER_02: skills to take up that financing point.
22:38
I keep on speaking about loans because you have seen a lot of
22:41
complaints currently
22:43
SPEAKER_02: from the financial services sector.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: We are finding consumers not really to meet their obligations.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: We know there could be issues with the closure of rapid fees and charges,
22:56
SPEAKER_02: but we are starting to see a situation where
22:59
SPEAKER_02: Consumers are trying to bring a complaint to us.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: And through our analysis,
23:04
SPEAKER_02: we were able to detect that this particular consumer who is complaining.
23:09
And there were some applicable charges that didn't disclose by
23:13
that financial service provider.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: But the complainer did not adhere to that.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: So when they come to the authority, open authority, we come to...
23:25
SPEAKER_02: intervene.
23:26
So those are some of the things that we are seeing and we are
23:28
trying to educate
23:29
consumers on the need for them to really meet their part of the
23:33
bargain or miss
23:34
their obligations so that the authority when it comes to
23:38
undertake an investigation
23:40
SPEAKER_02: then we can be able to be there to work parties.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: Just before we get into some feedback that's coming through on Twitter,
23:47
given the fact that a lot of these conversations between
23:50
consumers and companies on
23:51
SPEAKER_01: one hand,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: a lot of it has to essentially be on record.
23:54
Are you now seeing a tendency where some companies may try and
23:59
avoid having written
24:00
SPEAKER_01: records of conversations that they're having with their clients,
24:03
effectively trying to not have receipt that would essentially
24:06
expose it to any sort
24:07
SPEAKER_01: of legal liability?
24:08
SPEAKER_01: So for example, he's dealing with a client's
24:10
SPEAKER_01: matter on email, they end up having phone conversations instead.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: And that inevitably,
24:15
SPEAKER_01: once this comes up in court,
24:16
SPEAKER_01: it might end up becoming a he said,
24:18
SPEAKER_01: she said situation.
24:19
Are you seeing that sort of avoidance behavior,
24:21
if you may call it that,
24:22
from companies?
24:23
I wouldn't know whether to call it an avoidance behavior,
24:26
but we'd make it a favor.
24:28
But how we handle that particular issue is that when we receive
24:33
a complaint from a consumer,
24:35
SPEAKER_02: then we advise them to write to that particular business.
24:40
We're quite tiny with diverse content that we do to our
24:44
consumers or to any other
24:45
SPEAKER_02: party or else to the authority.
24:47
Then we find that a particular business is really moving fast
24:51
to resolve the issue.
24:52
Why we are happy when the issue is resolved is that we know
24:55
consumers would like a
24:57
SPEAKER_02: resolution which is very tiny and fast.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: And we are happy when it's being able to resolve.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: But again, what authority goes ahead?
25:05
Because we may not have established whether that behavior was
25:09
intentional or non-intentional,
25:11
SPEAKER_02: then we give a warning.
25:13
We can give a warning to the big company,
25:16
and our warnings are quite strong.
25:18
We write a letter and indicate that if we receive such a
25:22
complaint in the future,
25:24
the authority will proceed to impose hashtag on that particular
25:28
busy night.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: So we work on another way around in a process.
25:32
There's an interesting question that I mean in response to the
25:35
space at the moment.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Particularly individual,
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what their specific name or stamp is,
25:54
SPEAKER_01: but I'm just going to read out the complaint here.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: The person says this.
25:57
I bought a microwave from a major Nairobi supermarket on the
26:01
7th of March.
26:02
This supermarket refused to test it or purchase,
26:05
but they assured me of a 14-day return policy.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: The microwave then made strange noises,
26:10
SPEAKER_01: so I went back a few days later,
26:12
SPEAKER_01: but no help was offered.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: On the 19th of March, still within the return period,
26:16
SPEAKER_01: I returned it.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Now they say it'll take 14 days to check it.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: If they refuse to test it at purchase, why should I be waiting now?
26:23
SPEAKER_01: What do consumer laws say about this?
26:26
SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting case here that we're dealing with, committee.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: What should we advise these customers to do?
26:30
The important thing I've gotten from that I've done a quick
26:33
analysis is that there
26:34
SPEAKER_02: was a 14-day return policy that when they return a product,
26:38
SPEAKER_02: they have to be looked at.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And...
26:41
SPEAKER_02: That particular consumer needs to be given a title.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: The supermarket needs to give a title from which
26:49
SPEAKER_02: They agreed to look at the product,
26:51
but the timeline should not be long to prevent the consumer
26:56
from enjoying the
26:57
product that he purchased and the representation that
27:01
particular product was due.
27:03
And what I would advise the listener is if the supermarket does
27:07
not give back to you,
27:08
SPEAKER_02: the audience,
27:09
with ways in which you can be able to reach the authority and
27:12
to launch your complaint.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
27:14
And we'll certainly have a lot of those details coming in
27:17
towards the tail end of
27:18
SPEAKER_01: the space when Pete and Co take over the conversation.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: There's another question here that's actually come in from Samir Tabej.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, look, he's still here.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: He's waiting for someone to refund his money.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: He says that the Civil Innovation Authority has essentially gone quiet.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And the Competition Authority says, look, we've done our part.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: And here's a background to this specific case.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, East African Airways cancels the complainant's flights.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And then they failed to refund him the costs of tickets.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: This case did go to the competition authority.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: It's cited in that particular report.
27:48
And CK says the matter was referred to the civil evasion
27:51
authority and the case was closed.
27:53
So in the event of a case like this,
27:55
Secretary T,
27:56
what sort of recourse does Samir have?
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Does he come back to you?
27:59
SPEAKER_01: Does this now go to a small claims court?
28:01
SPEAKER_02: Drama.
28:02
I'm seeing iterations of the fact that this fund that you have
28:05
indicated were from consumers,
28:07
SPEAKER_02: just having picked it from this particular business,
28:11
SPEAKER_02: or before any other business,
28:13
and when you handle the matter and the reform of the matter to
28:17
your civil aviation
28:18
SPEAKER_02: authority because they're the ones who license these institutions.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: is that unfortunately now the consumer cannot come back to us.
28:26
SPEAKER_02: And the only way they can be able to get a refund,
28:29
SPEAKER_02: because there is a business that has closed due to various reasons,
28:33
SPEAKER_02: is to now put the small court.
28:35
I'm fortunate that some of these businesses are empty and some
28:38
sort of are rent from consumers.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: And we're also receiving complaints, not just from the LA sector, but
28:45
from other sectors that are working in sector,
28:48
and it will not turn back.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: A lot of these cannot be handled within the presence competition part,
28:53
SPEAKER_02: and these complaints or these issues border on fraud.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: So then there is an aspect of where the DTRI needs to come in,
29:01
SPEAKER_02: especially with a company which may be amorphous,
29:04
SPEAKER_02: but there's also an aspect of going to the small players' core,
29:09
SPEAKER_02: especially with a business which has been in existence.
29:15
And really getting the redirect warning to get from the court
29:19
because unfortunately
29:20
SPEAKER_02: for such a matter,
29:21
SPEAKER_02: the competition cannot be able to provide that sort of privilege.
29:25
Peter,
29:25
I know you want to comment a little bit,
29:27
at least in the case of the airline sector.
29:29
Do you want to give us more details on exactly what happened
29:31
with East African Airways?
29:32
SPEAKER_00: What committee has informed you is accurate.
29:34
This issue related to two different or I think there were three
29:38
different airlines.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: So they all went down or closed shop.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: They're small budget airlines.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: So in one case, we actually issued a cease and desist order.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: We found that despite the fact that they know the financial problems,
29:51
SPEAKER_00: they still go ahead and they keep their portal on the website open.
29:54
They collect the tickets ostensibly for flights which they are
29:58
aware they won't honor.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: So there's an element there again for...
30:03
SPEAKER_00: So in this case,
30:04
SPEAKER_00: once we noticed that airline,
30:05
SPEAKER_00: not this one specifically about East Africa,
30:07
SPEAKER_00: we issued a cease and cease order.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: And since it's public knowledge, the order is on our website.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: It was fly 540.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: So in this case, they went ahead and still collected.
30:16
So once the complaints came to our consumer protection
30:18
department to just ensure
30:20
SPEAKER_00: that this problem at least stops,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: we issued a cease and cease order.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: We publicized it quite a bit.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: telling the airline to stop collecting monies from the public.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: I think that helped in this case.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: But what the committee is saying is that sometimes,
30:34
SPEAKER_00: and in that specific issue of Flight 540,
30:37
SPEAKER_00: the truth of the matter is that we actually forward this to KTA,
30:40
SPEAKER_00: and we also forward the same file to the DCI.
30:43
where we find that our jurisdiction is a bit limited or our
30:47
competition law cannot allow us.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: We don't have prosecutorial powers.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: We can't do much about it.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: We forward to the parties or the regulator that has,
30:54
SPEAKER_00: or the government agents in this case,
30:56
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
30:56
SPEAKER_00: the police service,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: the DCI.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: So that was a background about these two or three airlines.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: So then unfortunately,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: Samir,
31:03
it seems the next step for you here will be to head over to the
31:06
sport claims court
31:07
SPEAKER_01: in order to try and get that refund.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: There's a question that's come up here.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: In my case, it came in on WhatsApp.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: What are the consequences for companies that are repeat offenders?
31:15
If you find firms that are repeatedly violating consumer rights
31:19
and breaching the
31:20
SPEAKER_01: law over and over again,
31:22
SPEAKER_01: and they issue a refund here,
31:24
SPEAKER_01: that one small case there,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: but it's a longstanding pattern of them just
31:27
SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better word, dealing their clients a bad hat.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: What happens then?
31:33
SPEAKER_02: What we do is that we evoke now steep penalties.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: We enforce steep penalties on that particular institution.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that we do,
31:43
we can impose a pecuniary penalty up to 10% of the previous
31:48
year's annual growth turnover.
31:50
We have died back for several companies if you go through our
31:54
idle reports,
31:55
SPEAKER_02: especially the promotions from Swiss sector,
31:57
SPEAKER_02: where we have seen complaints coming in,
32:00
SPEAKER_02: and despite that issuing several warnings to the businesses,
32:03
SPEAKER_02: is able to hear the complaints and introduce them,
32:07
SPEAKER_02: and proceed to analyze those companies.
32:09
Another thing we do is we can report our conditions to reverse
32:14
our infringement.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: And as much as we pose the conditions,
32:18
SPEAKER_02: it's that we monitor the compliance with those conditions.
32:22
And also what Ugambi has indicated is that we can proceed to
32:27
form this particular
32:28
file to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution for
32:32
Prosecution under
32:33
SPEAKER_02: Section 17.
32:35
One of the more famous cases that you mentioned that the
32:38
authorities have to deal
32:39
SPEAKER_02: with has been,
32:40
SPEAKER_02: especially in the non-deposit,
32:42
SPEAKER_02: taking lending space with specific
32:53
SPEAKER_01: firms.
32:53
And I know Mogo has been pretty much one of the more common
32:56
ones that we've seen
32:57
SPEAKER_01: pretty much right across the board.
32:58
Can you walk us through exactly what sort of pattern of
33:01
behavior we saw in that particular case?
33:03
SPEAKER_01: Why was it that individuals would come in and say,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: we borrowed X amount of money,
33:06
but the amount of cash that we ended up repaying was way beyond
33:10
what we borrowed
33:11
SPEAKER_01: plus interest?
33:12
Was that just a matter of routine non-disclosure or is it just
33:15
routine overcharging
33:16
SPEAKER_01: of clients that we've seen?
33:18
SPEAKER_02: For that particular matter,
33:19
there was an element of calls or which made in representations
33:24
and what we'd call
33:25
SPEAKER_02: unconscionable conduct,
33:27
SPEAKER_02: where a supplier has a higher bargaining power over a consumer.
33:31
And what we saw from that particular situation is that consumer
33:36
loans were being priced in USD.
33:39
So your repayments were actually priced in USD in such that as
33:42
much as you were
33:43
SPEAKER_02: given your facility,
33:44
SPEAKER_02: In Kenyan shillings, the new requirements were in the US dollar.
33:49
And you remember the time where the exchange rate from the
33:52
Kenyan shillings to the
33:53
SPEAKER_02: dollar was at a higher of about 100 days.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: During those times,
33:58
SPEAKER_02: or that particular period,
33:59
most consumers launched companies because what they were paying
34:03
for as a loan
34:04
SPEAKER_02: charge was basically not sustainable.
34:06
And then the report remained a thick family investigation into
34:10
this particular
34:10
SPEAKER_02: aspect of it,
34:12
SPEAKER_02: and noted that these were those in terms and conditions,
34:15
SPEAKER_02: knowing the load terms or condition.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: And that's where now I come to that.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: But on the report,
34:21
SPEAKER_02: interestingly,
34:22
SPEAKER_02: some of these terms remain a situation that may not have been disclosed,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: but again,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: it was the terms.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: and conditions which probably the consumer was not able to detect.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: But then for that particular issue,
34:35
SPEAKER_02: then the authority came to not only penalize the company,
34:39
but also we imposed a condition where they were required to
34:43
resolve any other
34:44
SPEAKER_02: complaints that they received.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: So far,
34:48
SPEAKER_02: they have been resolving complaints successfully,
34:51
SPEAKER_02: and the ones who took out the loans for that particular company,
34:55
SPEAKER_02: we've been receiving feedback that their issues are being resolved.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: Just to follow up on that,
34:59
was the issue here in terms of disclosure of the precise terms
35:02
and conditions and
35:03
SPEAKER_01: the loans would have to be repaid,
35:05
was it that the terms and conditions were basically written in
35:08
very specific legal terms?
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Legal circles,
35:11
SPEAKER_01: those guys would understand it,
35:12
SPEAKER_01: the lawyers would understand it,
35:13
SPEAKER_01: the listeners would get it,
35:14
SPEAKER_01: but ordinary citizens like you and I will simply not understand it.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Was it also a case of omission in the sense that they say we're going to
35:20
essentially use the prevailing exchange rate or whatever the
35:23
dollar shilling rate be?
35:25
But then they're not specific on how we're defining what the
35:27
prevailing exchange rate is.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: The midpoint is published by the Central Bank of Kenya.
35:31
It's some random brief bank that's known as that the consumer
35:35
is not being told about.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: That lack of clarity in detail, was that also part of the problem?
35:39
It was the lack of clarity of the exchange rate because there
35:43
was no set of
35:44
exchange rates that had been indicated in the time and
35:47
conditions and there was no
35:48
reference to the prevailing rate or what has been provided by
35:52
the Central Bank of Kenya.
35:53
So there was that ambiguity in the language and also the
35:58
failure to really contact
35:59
the consumer and let you know that because the current exchange
36:03
rate has gone up,
36:04
SPEAKER_02: then your loan repayments are going to go up.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: Because ordinarily,
36:08
you will see a reduction in the investor rates or an 8%
36:12
interest rate in the market.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: Ideally,
36:15
the financial service providers should contact you and it
36:19
indicates to you that
36:20
SPEAKER_02: your repayments are going to
36:23
need to be increased or we are going to enhance or to increase
36:27
the period within
36:28
SPEAKER_02: which we are going to repair this loan because of 1,
36:30
SPEAKER_02: 2,
36:30
SPEAKER_02: 3,
36:30
SPEAKER_02: 4.
36:32
So it was a combination of what we call the calls or receiving
36:35
representations by
36:37
not disclosing such information and the unquestionable conduct
36:41
element of using
36:42
SPEAKER_02: that fire by gaining power called Duma.
36:45
And so what has been happening is in the resolution of this
36:49
company is that all
36:50
SPEAKER_02: loan contracts were converted to pay and shillings.
36:54
And that now one of the conditions that was given in the
36:57
settlement agreement with
36:58
SPEAKER_02: the authorities,
36:59
SPEAKER_02: with the company,
37:00
is that all dollar denominated loans should be reversed to pay
37:06
and shillings under undisclosed.
37:08
We're fast approaching at 3 p.m.,
37:09
so I do have to bring the entire conversation to a close.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: Any final thoughts from your end,
37:15
SPEAKER_01: committee,
37:15
on what we should be doing as consumers to try and make sure
37:18
that our rights are
37:19
SPEAKER_01: expected by companies?
37:21
SPEAKER_01: For one,
37:22
SPEAKER_01: there's a whole list of complaints,
37:23
SPEAKER_01: of course,
37:23
SPEAKER_01: that you put out in great detail rather than the annual report.
37:26
But let's say there are individuals who have been listening to
37:27
this conversation
37:28
SPEAKER_01: for the last hour.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: They want to get in touch with CAK.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: They want to file a report.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: How do they go about it?
37:33
SPEAKER_01: My hand on thoughts,
37:35
it is trying to be as innovative as possible to ensure our
37:39
consumers learn about
37:40
SPEAKER_02: what we do and how they can enhance their welfare.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: For example,
37:43
we have embarked on increasing consumer awareness to learners
37:47
in junior secondary schools.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: You know,
37:49
SPEAKER_02: learners are the biggest influencers to power our parents and society,
37:53
SPEAKER_02: and we are hoping that this will enhance their awareness levels.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: How they're doing it is a real warfare.
37:59
the Kenyan Institute of curriculum development to provide
38:03
content on consumer welfare.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: You can be able to reach us in many ways.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: You can write to us directly.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: We complain at cnk.go.ke.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: I would encourage all of you to go through our website at www.cnk.go.ke.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: You can call us, click our landline, or be able to hear complaints.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: But also, you don't have to come to the authority.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: You can be able to lodge or to fill out a complaint hall,
38:34
SPEAKER_02: which you can do that through a portal.
38:38
We're going to put in a brief with some of those contact
38:40
details that community and Pete,
38:41
SPEAKER_01: of course,
38:41
SPEAKER_01: are talking about.
38:42
In case you have specific issues that you'd like the
38:45
conversation authority of
38:46
SPEAKER_01: Kenya to deal with,
38:46
SPEAKER_01: any cases you'd like to deal with.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
38:49
all the details that we've spoken about in terms of consumer
38:52
protection cases that
38:53
SPEAKER_01: dealt with,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: we've listed that in response to the pinned tweet that has a space...
38:58
SPEAKER_01: On it,
38:58
SPEAKER_01: from page 157 of the last annual report from Fiscal 2324,
39:02
there's plenty of details in there that will make it very
39:06
interesting to read in.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the end of our Mango Spaces.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Today, we've been covering the question around consumer protection.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Here in Kenya,
39:15
there's a lot of businesses that are still operating pretty
39:18
much right across the board,
39:19
SPEAKER_01: all in all sorts of interesting new areas,
39:22
SPEAKER_01: e-commerce,
39:22
SPEAKER_01: fintechs,
39:23
SPEAKER_01: insurance,
39:24
SPEAKER_01: and so on and so forth.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: And we often tend to speak about the growth element,
39:27
SPEAKER_01: right,
39:27
SPEAKER_01: that comes in with a lot of these investments.
39:29
But very rarely do we ever speak about your right as a consumer
39:33
to essentially
39:33
SPEAKER_01: safeguard your hard-earned cash.
39:36
Hopefully,
39:36
over the last hour,
39:37
we'll provide a bit of understanding on that particular space.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: But as always, these conversations are by no means definitive.
39:44
There's plenty more than we could cover here,
39:46
but we'll see you around on the timeline.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: And of course, in the next Mongo Spaces.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: Have a good afternoon.