Latest / The Starfish Storytellers / Season 4, Episode 7: Going Beyond Bias - Sensitivity, Authenticity & Inclusive Storytelling with Stacey Parshall Jensen

Transcript

Season 4, Episode 7: Going Beyond Bias - Sensitivity, Authenticity & Inclusive Storytelling with Stacey Parshall Jensen · The Starfish Storytellers

0:00
Welcome to the starfish storytellers the podcast
0:03
that makes a difference one story at a time by
0:05
bringing storytelling to life One of my earlier
0:23
clients when I first began actually professionally
0:26
doing sensitivity reads. I had a publishing company
0:31
reach out to me with a YA novel that they wanted
0:36
me to read. And it was, it's an Indigenous story,
0:41
Indigenous characters and stuff, but it's contemporary.
0:44
And they were just hoping, you know, oh, and
0:46
the interesting thing too is that the author
0:49
is also Indigenous. So they still wanted someone
0:52
to read all of it through and look for anything
0:55
that might, you know, reveal some type of a hidden
0:58
bias or stereotype and stuff. And so I got this
1:05
novel and I started reading it and it was so
1:08
good and it was so moving. And I was so excited
1:13
for it. I actually did something that I haven't
1:16
done with any other client, like working with
1:19
publishers and agents and stuff for this one.
1:23
Because when I wrote the review, there really
1:24
wasn't much in there that I needed to address,
1:26
you know. But I wrote, you know, sent the report
1:29
and I told them that it was so vivid and that
1:32
I was seeing, you know, just really seeing the
1:35
scenes and really feeling the characters and.
1:40
I asked if anybody had optioned it to write for
1:44
a screenplay, because I'm also a screenwriter.
1:48
Because it was like, this is the kind of story
1:49
I really want to see to do the adaptation on.
1:52
And so it's a larger publishing company. So what
1:55
they wrote back and said, well, that department
1:56
is over here, but what they're doing is this
1:59
part. And they appreciated the compliment and
2:02
whatever and stuff, which is like the long way
2:05
of saying. we're not looking for you to do this,
2:08
you know, and I was like, okay, you know, I'm
2:10
like, well, maybe the conversation has happened
2:12
already. So then the book gets published and,
2:16
um, it just takes, you know, takes off by storm
2:20
and it's actually the fire keeper's daughter.
2:23
Um, yeah, but what is it? Um, Bolle, I want to
2:27
make sure I get her name right. It's Angeline
2:28
Bolle and to watch her take this book and the
2:34
kinds of places she could go with it. And the
2:38
audience, the wide -range audience that she was
2:41
reaching about, you know, this life on this particular
2:46
reservation and what is happening with these
2:48
teenagers and stuff. And then to write the sequel
2:50
of it, which I have not read yet, but it's on
2:53
my list to get to. I actually bought them from
2:57
my niece and they're in Minnesota, so I want
2:59
to go and read them when I'm there with her so
3:02
we can discuss them as I go through it and stuff.
3:06
But this company, the publishers, they came back
3:09
to me before it was published. They came back
3:11
to me after I sent the report and they asked
3:13
me to review all of their media publications.
3:19
So I reviewed the... the front cover, the summary,
3:26
the back cover, you know, the posters, you know,
3:29
everything, you know, as they were getting ready
3:31
for it. And at the time I couldn't like tell
3:34
anybody, you know, I didn't necessarily sign
3:37
an NDA, but for my own clients, I just don't
3:40
reveal names and books and stuff. Now I do have
3:43
an agreement and an NDA for sure. But at that
3:46
time I just did it. So I had to wait until it
3:49
came out. And then, you know, I could proudly
3:52
share that this is, you know, an opportunity
3:55
to really be part of something amazing, which
3:58
can happen with any story. You know, you never
4:01
know. You know, even authors who have bestselling
4:06
books, you don't know what the next story is
4:08
going to be, what it looks like. And you don't
4:09
know when someone's going to write a story that
4:11
just really, you know, touches a lot of hearts
4:13
and goes in places that they might not have even
4:15
dreamt of. So it's just exciting to be part of
4:18
the team to really help. rostered that along.
4:23
So that was one of my favorites. and welcome
4:51
to the Starfish Storytellers. I'm the CEO of
4:53
the Black Dog Group, a MarCom and project management
4:56
firm headquartered on the East Coast of the U
4:58
.S. in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
5:01
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling.
5:04
I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next
5:06
generation of storytellers. We've named ourselves
5:08
the Starfish Storytellers after the Starfish
5:10
story. The moral of the Starfish story is based
5:13
on the power of one. No matter how big the challenge,
5:16
each action we take makes a difference and has
5:18
an impact. One step, one starfish or one story
5:21
at a time. Every episode, we welcome a new storyteller
5:24
who will share their story meant to inspire and
5:27
connect with you. And we break it down and offer
5:29
tips for any listeners who are ready to tell
5:31
their own stories. So thanks for tuning in. Now
5:34
let's get started. Today's episode is going beyond
5:37
bias, sensitivity, authenticity, and inclusive
5:41
storytelling. And with me today is Stacey Parshall
5:44
Jensen. She's a writer, screenwriter, and novelist.
5:48
whose work explores themes of race, oppression,
5:51
women, families, love, and hope across crime
5:54
fiction, suspense thrillers, and character -driven
5:57
drama. But her impact goes far beyond. As a sensitivity
6:01
reader, diversity editor, and cultural consultant,
6:05
she helps authors, producers, and publishers
6:08
identify hidden or unconscious bias in their
6:11
work. With compassion and clarity, she offers
6:14
thoughtful feedback and actionable solutions,
6:17
ensuring stories are not only powerful, but also
6:20
respectful and inclusive. So welcome to the show.
6:24
I'm so happy you're here. Thank you. Thank you
6:27
for having me. I'm really happy here to, you
6:29
know, tap with you, too. Thank you. So when we
6:32
start every episode, we have our guests introduce
6:35
themselves. Would you mind telling our guests
6:36
a little more about you? OK, sure. So Yes, Stacey
6:42
Parsons Jensen. I'm originally from Minnesota.
6:47
Right now, I live in Los Angeles, but I'm from
6:49
Minnesota. I grew up in a really small town in
6:53
the middle of a cornfield. In that it's like
6:58
40 minutes to South Dakota border, five minutes
7:00
to Iowa. So that's where I was born and raised,
7:03
population like 10 ,000. I'm Mixed Blythe. I
7:08
am Mandan and Hidatsa. I'm indigenous from the
7:12
three affiliated tribes in North Dakota, the
7:15
MHA nation. And then my father was black. So
7:18
growing up in this teeny tiny town, I, and this
7:21
was, you know, the seventies, I could list like
7:24
on one hand, the families of color. So it was
7:28
difficult at times to say the least. But what's
7:33
interesting as a storyteller, I keep going back
7:37
to telling stories from that perspective, from,
7:40
you know, growing up in a small town and something
7:44
about the community or lack of community or just
7:47
the world view when you go from someplace small
7:50
and you are exposed, like, what is it? You know,
7:55
fish out of water exposed to something larger
7:58
and you encounter different cultures and different
8:00
people and stuff. So had you told this 11 -year
8:08
-old little girl with a bag full of library books
8:13
that someday she was going to be a storyteller
8:17
and would go to school for it and be a writer
8:20
and stuff. Had you told that little girl that,
8:23
she would have been just shocked and she probably
8:26
wouldn't have believed you because it was hard
8:27
to see how I would get there. But for me, my
8:31
journey was when I left, left there, went away
8:34
to college. First time out, I went to school
8:36
for mass communications. I wanted to be a journalist.
8:41
I actually wanted to write for the Rolling Stone.
8:45
That was like the big dream. I was going to go
8:47
to New York City, write for the Rolling Stone.
8:49
I didn't quite make it there, but I ended up
8:54
going back to Worthington and then going up to
8:57
move into the cities. when my daughter was born
9:00
and I went to school and went back to school
9:04
and got a BA in Human Services Administration,
9:08
where I was focusing on women and children and
9:10
became a children's advocate. And so I worked
9:14
in the front line. I worked in domestic abuse
9:17
shelters. I worked on boards. I created children's
9:20
programs. I did crisis counseling with women
9:23
and children. It was hard, cathartic work. I
9:28
was also a single parent raising my daughter
9:29
at the same time in a very structured nonviolent
9:36
world. I built that for her, which we laugh about
9:41
now because years later, decades later, I write
9:44
crime and fiction and I pretty much watch all
9:47
the crime and fiction I can get, whereas there
9:49
was no violence when she was little. I left working
9:56
in the field to go to grad school. Might I add,
10:00
I was the first person in my family, history
10:03
of my family to go to grad school. And I got
10:07
a master's of liberal studies and interdisciplinary
10:10
child social policy and took my children and
10:13
women's advocacy to another level. I love the
10:18
work. I still consider myself an advocate, you
10:21
know, in the stories that I tell and then also
10:23
in the work that I do as a consultant. You know,
10:26
I'm very much an advocate when it comes to women
10:28
and children and communities of color and, you
10:33
know, traditionally marginalized populations.
10:37
You know, I'm definitely an advocate for that.
10:40
But when was it? Probably 2000. Yeah, in 2000,
10:45
I listened to a call that I had to go back to
10:50
school and write. And I applied for the MFA program
10:56
at Hamilton University in St. Paul, Minnesota.
11:00
And I applied with poetry and then with some
11:03
non -fiction essays. And they looked at my poetry
11:06
and said, no, not that. So poetry has never been
11:09
my thing. But they looked at the essays and were
11:12
like, there's a voice here, there's something
11:14
you're saying and this is good, we can do this.
11:17
So I started the classes and stepped into my
11:21
first fiction writing class and was just blown
11:24
away with the ability that is given to us as
11:29
storytellers to create a world where you see
11:33
you can create characters do something that you
11:35
can't do in your own world. you know explore
11:38
something and this is the cathartic part of it
11:40
explore something that you may not actually be
11:43
in or you're worried about or you just want to
11:46
see and you can give those attributes in that
11:48
plot and so on to your characters um it's a way
11:52
to obviously way to connect with people you know
11:55
the goal is like i just want to entertain them
11:56
with this fantastical story about you know generations
12:00
all the way back to slavery and and whatever
12:03
you know huge huge stories You can do that too,
12:06
or you want to just be introspective about your
12:11
life if you were an ant. You can do all that.
12:16
I absolutely love fiction, and so I switched.
12:20
And then in 2005, I got my first MFA in Creative
12:26
Friday. At the same time as I was finishing up,
12:28
I was working in theater in Minneapolis, and
12:32
I was... learning to be a playwright and, you
12:37
know, among my friends and so on. So I, you know,
12:42
I think I did okay. There was a couple fellowships
12:44
and, you know, a couple productions and stuff,
12:46
but my heart was really in cinematic storytelling,
12:50
which meant for me a move, a big move from Minneapolis
12:54
to either Tisch in New York City or to a school
13:00
out here in Los Angeles. So I... made my applications,
13:06
and 2008, I was accepted into USC's School of
13:19
Cinematic Arts for the screenwriting program.
13:23
I was also accepted into UCLA's writing program.
13:28
And so I had the immense joy of exploring both
13:32
programs and choosing which one I wanted. And
13:34
I chose USC because I felt like it was just closer
13:38
to the industry at the time. That's what I felt.
13:42
So I went to school, got my second MFA, continued
13:46
storytelling, continued working my voice. I thought
13:52
I was up against some big, you know, some big
13:56
possible obstacles, wanting to tell stories with
14:00
women of color leads. So this was, you know,
14:03
like I said, 2009, 2010, there was not a lot
14:06
of film and television that was just doing that
14:09
necessarily. But those are the stories I wanted
14:11
to tell. And so my husband and I formed a small
14:16
production company called Through the Wilderness
14:18
and The first thing we did was shoot a 28 minute
14:25
short action, because that's important to me
14:28
too, a short action film with an indigenous women
14:32
lead cop. We shot this short film and it won
14:40
some awards. It did the award circuit, the festival
14:43
circuit for a good year or more, which was really
14:46
exciting. because I was telling the stories that
14:49
I really wanted to tell, which I think if there's
14:53
any point through this or any time I get a chance
14:55
to talk to another writer, another storyteller,
14:58
I always tell them, because we worry, we're like,
15:01
well, what do my readers want? What will my audience
15:03
want? What are they into? But if you write to
15:05
that, you could lose something because it's not
15:08
necessarily the story you need to tell or you
15:10
want to tell. So I'm of the club of just go for
15:14
it. Your your best writing and best storytelling
15:18
will come when you're when you're saying something
15:20
that's important and vital to you you know, which
15:25
is what I tell my clients to so that to give
15:27
them a a Sense of you know how much I'm understanding
15:33
what they're going through, you know, it's like
15:34
this is this is hard writing. It's not easy and
15:37
People think it is, but it's like once you're
15:40
in it, it's not easy. And you work hard at your
15:42
craft and I get it. And I want to help you with
15:46
that, you know, without telling you what you
15:49
should do or without worrying about your readers
15:51
or something. Just this. This is the story you
15:54
want to tell. So let's get in it, get into it,
15:56
make it better, make it authentic and make it
16:00
respectful. Those those things are still very,
16:02
very important to me. So. Yeah, so this is me.
16:06
I'm now in Los Angeles, TV project in development.
16:12
A couple more things I'm writing. There's an
16:14
inkling in the back of my head to pull up one
16:16
of my unpublished novels. It's really timely
16:22
now with the state of the country. So it either
16:26
could do well or it could just still be too.
16:31
too hard, you know, so I'm still trying to figure
16:34
that out. But, you know, always telling, always
16:38
writing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Such a great story.
16:42
Thank you. Just thank you for sharing your story
16:45
and your history with us. I first of all, it
16:50
was very cool that you worked on that book, you
16:52
know, and that book that took off, you know.
16:55
Yes. And, you know, we have some similar sort
16:58
of paths, you know, I My previous life was in
17:02
social work, working with children and families.
17:05
That's my bachelor's. I didn't know that. It's
17:07
wonderful. Yeah. And so my master's is in journalism,
17:11
mass communications, PR and communication. So
17:14
I started wanting to be a journalist, but journalism
17:18
doesn't pay the bills. So I became a marketer.
17:24
And I think at this time, in our season of life,
17:32
our era that we're in, the kind of work you're
17:35
doing is even more important. And, you know,
17:42
so I think I really appreciated you sort of sharing
17:44
your journey and how you got to where you are.
17:47
And it seems like you just kind of took everything
17:49
was a building like a stepping stone. Everything
17:52
was a building block. It sounded like as you
17:54
what you were very intentional in as you moved
17:57
through. your decisions with your journey professionally
18:01
and what you wanted your life to look like and
18:03
how you wanted to become a storyteller, which
18:05
I think is wonderful. I think, you know, I hear
18:07
stories sometimes, people that have very disjointed
18:09
journeys, and it just doesn't sound like that
18:11
was yours at all. So that was very cool. Thank
18:16
you. Thank you. So in this episode, we want to
18:19
dive into the world of inclusive storytelling
18:21
and what it means, why it matters and how as
18:25
writers we can do better because I think we can
18:27
do better. Oh, yes. And then, you know, we want
18:30
to talk about like, you know, when authors and
18:32
creators are shaping more authentic characters
18:35
and they're avoiding unconscious bias, they're
18:38
going to be able to tell stories that are going
18:40
to reflect that richness of real world experience
18:44
says that. that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
18:47
So I'm really excited to hear from you today
18:50
about how do you help your clients with their
18:53
character development? Because that's really
18:54
important. Because we did talk about this when
18:58
we were prepping, what happens when somebody
19:00
wants to write outside of their own cultural
19:03
lens? And then how do you just guide people through
19:07
their complexities? I think it is a very complex
19:11
thing, because like we talked about when we were
19:13
prepping, anybody who says they're unbiased is
19:16
lying. We all have bias. Everybody has a bias.
19:20
We all do. So let's jump in. Let's get right
19:25
to this. So you talked a lot about your history.
19:29
You've got a lot of titles, but you're a writer,
19:32
sensitivity reader, DEI consultant, developmental
19:34
editor. But at the heart of it, you're a storyteller.
19:38
And you talked about the little girl with the
19:42
with the book with the bag of books. Yes. Yes.
19:46
You know, is that is that where the journey started
19:50
for you, would you say? Like, did you feel like
19:52
you knew then that you wanted to be a storyteller?
19:56
Yes, I think so. I don't think I was aware enough
20:02
to say, I want to do this. I definitely didn't
20:05
say it out loud. I found an essay. This is when
20:09
I was applying for that first MFA. And I had
20:11
found this essay and a bunch of old things that
20:13
I wrote. And it was actually from when I was
20:15
13 years old. And there's a really bad drawing
20:18
self. you know, images I drew of myself, you
20:22
know, big, you know, big glasses and my attempt
20:24
at, um, varifacet curls, you know, curled hair,
20:27
whatever. Um, but in it, I said, you know, that
20:31
I wanted to be, um, I wanted to be an actress
20:35
and I wanted to write, um, and I wanted to, uh,
20:41
be on stage. you know and so in this teeny tiny
20:45
town I didn't feel and you know because of that
20:48
and then just my family I mean because we were
20:50
very poor and and stuff that I just didn't feel
20:52
like it was it wasn't even enough to say that's
20:56
a dream like I couldn't define it as a dream
20:58
that like those types of of of this is something
21:03
I really want I'm going to work towards didn't
21:04
come until much later so as a little girl I didn't
21:09
approach it that way um but the the power of
21:14
the books that you know those stories you know
21:17
I spent a lot of time at our library. Mrs. back
21:21
our library and she she would like keep books
21:25
aside or she's come to me tell me this is something
21:27
that she found I might be interested in because
21:29
she was very much an avid reader and you know
21:32
summertime program I always worked hard to have
21:34
like the longest caterpillar you know with a
21:37
little construct construction people around saying
21:39
which book you read and that was really important
21:42
to me and I am. I was actually teased for reading
21:48
as much as I did, which ensure a lot of young
21:50
kids still encounter or may encounter. But this
21:54
is by like my siblings and the kids in the neighborhood.
21:57
And it would be, you know, well, why don't you
21:59
just go read a book? Because I had an apple tree
22:02
in the backyard and I would climb up in the apple
22:03
tree with that bag of books. And then my cat
22:06
would join me and I'd sit up there and I would
22:08
read. Once everybody got older, they came to
22:11
their own educational philosophy, they were like,
22:16
oh wow, I probably shouldn't have said that to
22:17
you when you were a kid because I'm really glad
22:19
that my kid reads as much as they do because
22:21
they got Auntie always buying all the books for
22:24
them. It's like, I know, but when your kids,
22:27
you know, there's, there's a higher value in,
22:29
you know, kickball than there is in, you know,
22:33
following, following along, you know, with the.
22:37
you know, Bopsy Twins or Nancy Drew books. Oh
22:41
boy, Nancy Drew. Yes, yes. I was just, I was
22:45
like, she's so smart, you know? But yeah, I think
22:49
that's, that's where it started. And then after
22:52
that, I always just read for fun. Like I've always
22:56
had. novels and stuff, you know, like I read
23:00
everything Stephen King ever wrote until I got
23:02
pregnant and then it scared me and then his story
23:05
started to scare me. I think as far as it and
23:07
then I was like, okay, I need to like back up
23:11
and try to figure out I'm going to tell and I've
23:12
read plenty of his books since then. But even,
23:17
you know, when I was away at college and I may
23:20
not have been doing so well in other classes,
23:22
I was still reading. I always had a library card.
23:25
I always need to know where my stack of books
23:28
were. It's always been very important to me.
23:33
So let's talk about bias for a minute. Because
23:42
like I said, when we were preparing, we talked
23:43
about that. Can you talk about how everyone has
23:47
bias and how that shapes the work that you're
23:50
doing? Yes. Like we just said, or like you said,
23:57
somebody who says that they're completely unbiased
23:59
is they're not being truthful about themselves.
24:04
Because everybody has biases, just the way we
24:07
are. And they could be so ingrained in us that
24:10
you're not aware of them, just this automatic
24:14
like... walking through the grocery store and
24:18
the things you automatically think when you see
24:20
people, you know, it's just like, oh, there's
24:22
an elderly woman, da da da da, and there's a
24:24
man doing this and there's a, you know, a young
24:28
family and there's a, you know, Latino family
24:31
or Asian American family, whatever it's like,
24:34
all of that stuff just kind of pops in because
24:37
it is in us, it's been formed through our experiences,
24:40
which include the things we've had. perhaps just
24:46
drowning us as we grew up, what you see in television
24:49
and marketing and products and film and games
24:57
and stuff. All of that definitely has an impact
24:59
on how we're developed. Of course, you're going
25:01
to create biases. One of the things that I do
25:06
when I first hear from a client who may be hesitant
25:09
because sometimes I'll get an email that will
25:12
say, You know, I really want to tell the story.
25:17
But, you know, I am, you know, a white woman.
25:22
You know, I'm not sure if I should or or something
25:29
will say it's very important to me to tell this
25:30
respectfully. I just don't know how and I don't
25:33
know if I am. And I can feel how hesitant they
25:37
are. And along with that, along with the hesitancy,
25:40
I think there is often a large amount of shame
25:43
and even guilt, you know, because as storytellers,
25:49
you go on a journey, an internal journey, every
25:52
story that you write, everything that you're
25:53
creating as artists, it's our journey. And so
25:56
I believe and know that if someone's writing
25:59
a story and it's outside of their own race or
26:05
cultural identity, community or population or
26:09
however they want to define it, it's part of
26:12
their journey exploring something, whether it's
26:17
family dynamics or racial relations or socioeconomic
26:23
status or whatever it is, you're exploring something
26:26
and you can feel really vulnerable. And in that
26:30
state of discovery, will most likely find the
26:33
times where you're like, wow, I was not so kind.
26:37
Or I think I said or did something that I didn't
26:40
know what it was, but now I do. And so there
26:46
comes the shame and the guilt. And yet, as an
26:48
artist, you still are really driven to tell this.
26:52
And so I always just put that all on the table
26:57
and be like, everybody has a bias. We all have
27:00
biases. I do for sure. And sometimes it doesn't
27:05
make me feel that comfortable knowing them and
27:07
stuff, but I believe we can all do better. And
27:11
what you're doing by reaching out and taking
27:14
the time and the money to find a sensitivity
27:18
reader, if not myself, somebody else, to really
27:22
go in and help you with your story so it's respectful
27:25
is a... is an act of growth and it shows your
27:30
dedication. It shows your commitment to just
27:35
bettering the world or the teeny tiny part of
27:38
the world that you have access to and you have
27:40
a responsibility to. And as an author and as
27:44
a writer, we do have a response. I believe we
27:46
have a responsibility to our readers, too, to
27:48
what we're putting out there. So it's like you're
27:50
taking responsibility by saying, I'm not so sure
27:53
I'm doing this the right way. I just need you
27:55
to take a look at it. I'm nervous. And I'll say,
27:59
great. Thank you so much for reaching out to
28:01
me. I'm so glad your story sounds intriguing.
28:04
These are the reasons why I like it. This is
28:06
what's popping out. And I want to know more about
28:09
you. And I try to make them as comfortable as
28:12
possible from the very beginning in the process.
28:16
Yeah, because it's not easy. We know it's not
28:19
easy to have the conversations, even when you're
28:21
like minded with people. It's hard. It's not
28:23
easy to have conversations about, you know, race
28:26
and other social issues and the desire to be
28:30
inclusive. You know, it's it's that's not it's
28:33
not an easy thing to do. And I think right now
28:37
with what we have seen happening in our country,
28:41
that's it's so it's triggering. And privilege
28:47
allowed a lot of people to not see it and to
28:49
not having to deal with it. I believe as people
28:55
of color, we've had to maneuver those waters
28:58
because that's the world that we live in and
29:02
to survive in it, we've had to figure out a lot
29:04
of this already. But because everything's so
29:08
big and in our face right now, the work and the
29:13
work and the strive to being inclusive is even
29:16
more necessary, even more vital. Absolutely,
29:21
yeah. For us, yeah. Yeah, just a couple of things
29:25
you said. You know, first you talked about the
29:27
internal journey as a storyteller. Every time
29:30
you tell a story, I was in a certification class
29:35
for guided autobiography because I wanted to
29:37
teach people how to write their memoirs. And
29:39
I'm having this wonderful opportunity right now
29:41
where I've been getting to meet with seniors
29:45
and kind of drawing that out of them with very
29:51
sensitizing questions that are prompts and getting
29:54
to hear sort of where they're going with some
29:57
of this stuff. But when I went through the certification
30:01
class, we had to do a lot of writing and we had
30:03
to sell our own stories. And it was like every
30:05
time I had the prompt, it brought me right back
30:09
to that moment as I was telling that story and
30:13
just how today, how I see things is very different
30:18
than where I was sort of in those moments of
30:21
time. I'm glad that you raise the reality of
30:25
shame. I think a big part of people's denial
30:30
around bias is tied to that. I think that a lot
30:33
of people, I don't know about bias. I don't know
30:35
about bias. It's like, you know, because they
30:37
have that sort of also internal shame that goes
30:40
with it. I think about mentality and I feel like
30:45
we really do need to continue the march towards
30:50
kindness. We need to continue the march towards
30:55
inclusivity. So it's just really powerful. I
31:01
really appreciate you kind of talking about that.
31:05
When you're working with somebody, So you have
31:08
reading or editing that you have to do, right?
31:13
You'll provide an explanation for a suggested
31:16
fix on something. There's got to be a way that
31:19
you're doing this, you know. So I guess my question
31:22
is, you know, what is the fixing look like? What
31:26
is your process for that? And I would assume
31:30
I mean, I'm assuming here's a bias, right? I'm
31:32
assuming that people come to you because they
31:35
want your help. So they're going to be open to
31:38
your feedback, but, um, I mean, do you find that
31:41
people generally are just open to feedback? Um,
31:45
yes, I do find generally people are, um, but
31:48
there's been a few cases where, um, people weren't,
31:51
you know, and that, that has been unfortunate
31:55
because wherever they're at in their journey
31:57
has, you know, they're stuck someplace and, and,
32:01
um, but there was only so much I could do. You
32:04
know, I make a point of my clients all knowing
32:07
that is all suggestion because. Even, you know,
32:13
whether it's to sensitivity read or if it's more
32:15
of a diversity editing or something, this is
32:17
all suggesting because ultimately they can make
32:19
the decision for themselves because it's still
32:21
their story. You know what they're going to do
32:24
if they're going to, you know, change that character
32:26
or, you know, change that description or, you
32:30
know, shift on some perspective or or whatever
32:34
it may be. I also think that that the whole process
32:39
is. Very educational, of course. So first and
32:44
foremost, because of that, I make a point of
32:46
saying this is the reason why this reveals a
32:50
hidden or unconscious bias. Like one of the biggest
32:54
ones that I think it goes in almost every report
32:57
that I review and write, every book I review
33:03
and write is about identifying characters by
33:09
their race. Because, and I think I told you this
33:13
before we talked about this, I think, maybe,
33:16
that in literature, every character is assumed
33:20
to be white unless they're identified as non
33:23
-white. Because if you pick up the, you know,
33:27
pick up books, you know, maybe not more contemporary
33:29
ones, but you pick up other books and stuff,
33:31
they won't describe, they won't say if somebody
33:33
is white or whatever. It's just kind of a given.
33:37
That they are and that's because of the lens
33:39
that storytelling has been historically, you
33:42
know, and and that's not just this country that
33:44
I'm talking about. Like the canon literature
33:46
has been like, oh, you know, everybody it's told
33:50
through a white lens. And so all the characters
33:52
are white. I was going to ask that as you were
33:55
saying that I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I
33:56
was going to say, is it do you think that that's
33:58
just in America or do you think that that's global?
34:02
And you're saying unless they're identified as
34:04
people of color, it's pretty global. Yeah, I
34:07
think I think it's pretty global. You know, fascinating.
34:12
I think that they're, you know, saying that I
34:15
think internationally there may, you know, maybe
34:18
it's different when you have somebody who's like
34:20
writing in their language. And it's not English,
34:24
maybe somebody that is, you know, it's more apparent,
34:30
you know, but my point that I'm getting to is
34:33
that to be very clear. And to actually build
34:37
the best character is to just tell us, you know,
34:42
show us, you know, that, you know, this is, this
34:44
is a character. Um, you know, these are, these
34:48
are the races of these characters because you're
34:50
creating this like mosaic, you know, this picture
34:54
of, you know, every scene where you've got, you
34:56
know, these two people. bakery or something and
34:58
they're talking and stuff you want to see them
35:00
as clearly as you can so you can stay engaged
35:02
in that story so our job is to like well tell
35:05
me what they are and what they look like and
35:08
stuff take keeping things in mind that things
35:10
like hair color and eye color um are things that
35:15
can be changed you know skin color does not denote
35:18
what your race is you know but a lot of writers
35:22
who a lot of white writers are not aware of that
35:26
And so they will either only identify the non
35:34
-white characters by race, or they will sort
35:40
of identify them and write something that could
35:43
be more stereotypical about the texture for hair
35:46
or something. And it's like, but all of that
35:48
can be changed. And none of that says exactly
35:52
what somebody is. And so that does reveal a bias,
35:57
and the bias is for the characters to be white.
36:02
So just starting there, I let them know that,
36:09
yes, this is a hidden bias, but it's been in
36:11
literature for so long. It's been in your store
36:14
so long. And I do believe it's globally that
36:16
you certainly find it in a lot of literature
36:18
from other countries and throughout time. So
36:20
it's like... you know this is not me going oh
36:23
shame on you you did something wrong because
36:25
you don't know this it's like no this is huge
36:27
and this is the way it has been um and this is
36:30
why it's also necessary to support you know own
36:34
voices and people telling you know people telling
36:37
stories of their of their own in their own cultures
36:39
in their own language and instead of support
36:42
that too um so what i do you know back to the
36:46
report you know i'll list i'll say that um I
36:51
also make mention that, you know, the suggestive
36:55
fix would be to go and just identify everybody,
36:58
you know, and yours, I'm like, and here's where
37:01
your creative creativity come in, you know, this,
37:03
did you get a chance to really describe somebody,
37:06
you know, or, you know, it's just okay to say,
37:09
you know, he's white, you know, just say it so
37:12
we know and then just go it's like that works
37:14
too, you know, you just need to find it in your
37:17
own voice and, and And, you know, I always give
37:21
like examples, you know, so I'll give an example
37:25
how that will work. And then I as I go through
37:31
the novel. or the manuscript. When I read it
37:35
the first time, you know, I'm just highlighting
37:36
all of this, but I always highlight every character
37:38
to make sure that I can go back and really look
37:40
at each character to see how they're being developed,
37:43
you know. So in the report, I will say, you know,
37:47
on page 86, we meet so -and -so. And, you know,
37:53
here's the description of how they're, you know,
37:56
how they're being described. You know, the suggestive
37:58
fix is to include, you know, to identify them
38:01
by their race. You know, and so I will do that
38:05
for every character. So sometimes there, you
38:07
know, there can be two or three pages of just,
38:09
you know, the characters, many characters that,
38:12
you know, are being introduced and when they're
38:14
being introduced and why it's necessary for us
38:17
to see this. Um, and the educational part of,
38:21
you know, she's described with blonde hair, but
38:24
blonde hair does not necessarily mean that she's,
38:26
you know, white or, or Scandinavian or whatever
38:29
you say it is just, you know, identify them more.
38:36
Like I said, that is one of the first things
38:38
that I do. It's one of the biggest parts of the
38:42
report. And then in the highlighting, like I
38:46
said, I pick out anything that could reveal that
38:48
bias or anything that's a stereotype. And then
38:53
in the second read, after I read the whole thing,
38:54
I understand the context where it's like, oh,
38:57
and I get to know the narrator's voice. And and
39:02
understand like what the big picture is, you
39:04
know, like say, for instance. Like in historical
39:09
fiction, I get a lot of reviews for historical
39:12
fiction and in those reviews, perhaps if there
39:16
are like black characters or African American
39:18
characters, their dialogue could be very. Clipped
39:25
for lack of words, you know, it's. It's really
39:29
poor, poor grammar. Sometimes it's to a point
39:32
where it's just not understandable. But everybody
39:38
else speaks like we're speaking right now. And
39:42
so I make a point of, let's take a look at that.
39:46
Because if that's the only way that it's happening,
39:47
that is revealing a bias. And I understand that
39:53
these characters, at that time, this is how they
39:56
would speak. But that also means this is how
39:59
the white characters would speak too, which they
40:01
are not doing. So it's coming across as the ignorant
40:04
character is the character, you know, the black
40:07
character. Yeah. So it's just a fix would be,
40:09
you know, to address that. Perhaps these are
40:12
places where you can change the dialogue. And
40:15
I'll give an example, you know, instead of them
40:17
saying this isn't this, they could possibly say
40:18
this isn't this. Yeah. But it's always adjusted.
40:22
It's always a perhaps they could say this, perhaps
40:24
they can do that. And then the author gets to
40:26
decide from the south. what they want to do if
40:29
if it lands with them and they go oh yeah that's
40:31
right and then they start making shifts that's
40:33
fine if not then i think the risk is that once
40:39
you get published if you can get published you
40:42
know um but once you get published there there
40:45
could be backlash there could be you know, people
40:49
could come back at you and say, you know, that's
40:52
not right or the description is so stereotypical,
40:55
it's so awful and whatever. And if that's the
40:57
press you're going to get, you know, your book
40:59
is not going to live the way you want it to live.
41:02
So let's do the work right now. You know, I often
41:06
will make that point too, especially when there's
41:09
a lot of it. It's like, well, let's stop and
41:12
think about it. Your goal is to be published.
41:14
This is what could happen when it gets published.
41:16
Yeah. No, I'm glad that you're bringing that
41:18
up. No, I'm glad that you're bringing that up
41:20
because I think, A, if somebody's coming to you,
41:24
they're coming to you, obviously, to try to avoid
41:26
that. And B, I think that goes back to the question
41:28
of like, are people open to the feedback? You're
41:31
going to want them to be open to the feedback,
41:33
especially if it's going to be a story where
41:35
there's where there is that sort of dialogue
41:39
going on that you just described. There was one
41:42
question I had for you. Yeah. So when somebody
41:47
wants to write outside of their own identity,
41:51
their own ethnic identity, their own racial identity,
41:54
what do you say to them about that, especially
41:59
if their story comes to you and is definitely
42:02
outside of that cultural lens? It's interesting.
42:07
I started having this conversation about who
42:09
writes race years ago. when I was lucky to be
42:15
in the company of other playwrights. We became
42:20
very close friends and I became a fellow for
42:27
Many Voices program through the Playwright Center
42:28
in Minneapolis. And that was just for... um it
42:33
was like secured safe space for just playwrights
42:36
of color and so we were able to begin to explore
42:38
this and um since then still having that conversation
42:42
like who who writes it and I first can understand
42:48
the drive you know why somebody would want to
42:51
write you know there's something about this story
42:53
that is pulling them in you know um If you write
42:57
350 pages of something, you're in it. You're
43:02
really trying there and stuff. So I will ask
43:09
them, what is driving you to tell this story?
43:14
What is your connection to telling this story?
43:18
Especially if there's some very obvious biases
43:21
that show up. in the dialogue or actions that
43:30
are very stereotypical. I just recently reviewed
43:34
a book where one of the Indigenous characters
43:38
was raised by his grandma because his mother
43:41
was an addict and she left him as a kid. And
43:49
it's like, well, there's a stereotype about Native
43:51
women. doing that, you know, native women being,
43:54
you know, native people being, you know, drunk
43:58
or addicted and, you know, abandoning their children.
44:01
That is a negative stereotype. Understanding
44:04
where that comes from, that's for the author,
44:07
you know, and so I, you know, ask, you know,
44:09
something, you know, can you stop and think about
44:10
why you want to tell this picture, this particular
44:13
story and why you created this woman to to be
44:17
like this. And a suggestive atom would be To
44:23
give her, you know, you can still tell the story
44:26
of this, this person, this character being growing
44:29
up with an arrested development because they
44:31
were, you know, they lost their mother when they
44:33
were very young. And they have those universal
44:36
feelings of being abandoned and fear of being
44:38
abandoned. And, you know, all those other things
44:40
that can all still exist for the character, but
44:44
turn it on its heel. And is there a different,
44:47
different reason why the mother? you know perhaps
44:50
she did die but she died because of a disease
44:53
or she was serving in the military or it was
44:57
you know car accident not not if you're doing
44:59
you know so i try to give them other ways to
45:01
still hold their story but look at why they are
45:06
drawn to tell the story the way they did and
45:09
a lot of times it reads like they it's purely
45:12
stereotypical because they just don't know um
45:15
Which is why they come to me and that's which
45:17
is why I'm like, well, here's an educational
45:19
thing that's happening here But I think the most
45:24
important question really is like why why why
45:26
do you feel driven to tell this story? Yeah,
45:31
I Think I kind of go back and forth between being
45:34
of the camp of because they certainly support
45:36
and want Definitely want more stories to be told
45:39
and you know own voices. Yeah, you know, yeah,
45:43
and I read a lot of read a lot of literature
45:46
and fiction and support authors of color, for
45:49
sure. And stories that are cultural and different
45:58
world perspectives. And I definitely support
46:00
all of that. And I also understand to some extent
46:05
why people want to tell a different story. And
46:08
if it's outside of their race, if it's romanticized,
46:13
well, that definitely comes across. And then
46:15
there's work to be done. And the overall big
46:18
bias is, well, this is a romantic and inaccurate
46:23
and disrespectful view of this particular population
46:28
or this particular community. So then let's break
46:32
that down. And these are the examples throughout
46:34
your manuscript. These are some suggestive fixes.
46:42
These are some questions to ask yourself. So
46:47
I will list questions of the character, questions
46:51
of the story, questions for the author. It's
46:54
like, let's just really think this through and
46:56
do it now. Yeah, before I publish this. So a
47:01
couple of questions came up for me when you were
47:02
talking. You talked about the example that you
47:06
gave of the indigenous mom who was an addict
47:08
who... You know, the child was raised by the
47:10
grandparent because the mom had this problem.
47:13
She had this disease. Would you ever recommend
47:18
in a like in a scenario like that with that character,
47:22
would you ever recommend something like, can
47:24
we further develop mom's history? Like, what
47:28
got her there? Because I think. There are people
47:32
who are addicts who are in different cultures,
47:36
but there are some that like, you know, their
47:38
upbringing, their childhood was so rough, you
47:42
know, maybe or maybe they've tried to get into
47:45
recovery multiple times or do you know what I
47:48
mean? Like, would you ever recommend something
47:50
like that? So that's one question. So hold on
47:53
to that one for a second. And then when you when
47:57
you see somebody writing outside their their
48:01
ethnicity and their race and you ask them, why
48:05
do you think you need to tell this story? What
48:07
is their answer? For your first question, yes,
48:13
I have done that. Oftentimes, the characters
48:20
that are based purely on a stereotype or are
48:24
completely biased, they don't go that deep. It's
48:32
very much like a surface stereotype and you can
48:34
just read it and know it. And then, but then
48:38
I think in those cases, I looked at, you know,
48:40
I look at the whole story and like in all the
48:42
characters is like, this is one character color
48:45
is the only one that is suffering or the only
48:48
one who did this, you know, let's explore what
48:51
that means. If you're writing about a community,
48:54
you know, say to follow this, this, you know,
48:58
example gauge. So you're writing about a community
49:02
of indigenous people and you have other characters.
49:06
who have different set of attributes and stuff,
49:09
and you still want to be real, then perhaps you
49:16
still keep her as an addict or an alcoholic.
49:19
But then you also tell the story of why. Is there
49:27
the impact of poverty or the impact of pain or
49:31
her father's death when she was younger and she
49:35
um had a huge impact on her and she was never
49:38
able to recover from it or you know even if it
49:41
was an act of violence i mean because that's
49:43
a human i mean that's humanizing i think yes
49:46
for sure thinking it's real and that's real life
49:49
i think yes yep and you know and i was just going
49:51
to say that every stereotype comes from people
49:54
who actually fit it you know i mean you know
49:57
years ago i went to a um I had a film in, I think
50:03
it was like the Pan -African Film Festival or
50:05
something. And I heard Lena Waite, you know,
50:09
and this was when she was still staff writer
50:12
on some shows before she started, you know, blowing
50:15
things up with her incredible storytelling. And
50:18
she was talking, and I'm going to paraphrase
50:20
her. So it's not a direct quote, but she said
50:23
something about like, when we talk about this
50:25
question, that, you know, the stereotype may
50:29
be, you know, like, you know, the old man shorty
50:33
is drinking on the corner. But the reality is,
50:38
old man shorty does drink on the corner. You
50:41
know, so it was like, yes, you know, it's true,
50:45
it comes from someplace, you know, but yeah,
50:48
humanizing it, which is character development.
50:52
Like, let's just go deeper, let's give them layers.
50:55
Yeah, give them layers, you know, figure this
50:58
out and write to that in a way that is respectful.
51:06
So yeah, so when it's like, well, let's talk
51:08
about the stereotypes, where they came from,
51:10
and let's talk about why you as a writer are
51:13
telling this particular story, you know, and
51:18
let's explore that and see, you know, and in
51:22
some cases, back to what I was saying though
51:23
about like, Sometimes I suggest a fix as well,
51:28
to move away from the whole stereotype. It's
51:33
this context thing, it's a story thing, it's
51:35
a gut thing, where it's like, I think for this
51:38
particular author, it just may be easier for
51:40
them to have the parents die in a car crash.
51:44
Just avoid the whole poverty, alcohol, and alcoholic
51:49
addiction. And that's something that comes from
51:53
the whole context of all of it, where it's like,
51:57
there's always so much that can be done. And
52:04
maybe being able to go deep enough to figure
52:05
that out and tell that part of the story could
52:08
just open up more stereotypes, could just open
52:11
up more biases. It could just open up things
52:14
that are harder for them to work through. the
52:20
actual value of this character in this story
52:24
can still happen at this level. Does that make
52:27
any sense? Yeah, absolutely. No, I can see what
52:29
you're saying. Like you said, it's all about
52:33
context. Like, what is the rest of the story?
52:36
So this character is sort of the driver for the
52:40
rest of the story. The mom... It's a story unto
52:45
our own. And like you said, it can absolutely
52:47
open up more. If somebody's reading it and they
52:49
don't really understand addiction, they don't
52:50
really understand indigenous history. They don't
52:53
understand reservations. They don't understand
52:55
any of that. It could. It could almost plant
53:01
something that maybe wasn't there. Like I'm not
53:04
saying people aren't bias, but you know what
53:05
I mean? Like you're serving it up in the essence
53:09
of trying to humanize unless somebody is ready.
53:12
to to to have that, you know. Oh, right. Totally.
53:16
Totally. So so we're running out of time here.
53:19
I could talk about this all day long. But I guess
53:23
the last question just to answer that second
53:25
half was when you say to someone, why do you
53:29
feel the need to do this? What are some of the
53:32
answers that you've gotten? A lot of times it's
53:38
somebody who actually like grew up adjacent to
53:42
a reservation, you know, and have friends or
53:48
family who are Indigenous and they're, you know,
53:50
they've been fascinated with this. It could be
53:53
inspired by stories they heard in their own family.
53:57
Like, you know, my grandmother always told a
53:59
story about this, this and this. And it's like,
54:02
so I get that. I understand that. And it's really
54:06
not, it's really not about me judging. You know
54:10
is that a good reason why to tell the story is
54:12
that not a good reason it's more about what have
54:14
you thought about why. You know and. If there's
54:20
a bit of a pushback that comes across you know
54:24
and that says something and it also says something
54:26
about how we're going to work together. You know.
54:31
You know like me you know put on a little bit
54:34
of kid gloves at certain times and really pay
54:37
attention to that. versus somebody who says,
54:42
who's like, I've just been fascinated by this,
54:49
or I've always loved this story, I've always
54:51
read this and whatever. And it's like, okay,
54:54
I see you like, and then the answer includes
54:58
them saying, but I'm aware of the fact that me
55:01
being, writing outside of my own culture, could
55:06
be painful for a reader when my intention is
55:09
not to do that. So I'm asking for help, basically.
55:15
They're just like, I'm aware of it, I'm looking
55:16
for help. And it's like, okay, well then, if
55:18
we're starting from there, then this is how we're
55:21
gonna begin this work process. It just depends.
55:26
I've never had anybody really come back extremely
55:32
defensive about that. You know, a couple cases
55:35
where something had come up was interesting because
55:39
it's like sometimes people say, you know, I just
55:41
want to be really respectful, but I'm telling
55:43
the story with these characters and stuff, these
55:45
Indigenous characters. And then I get to get
55:48
through reading it and there's nothing in it
55:50
that even identifies them as being Indigenous.
55:53
So it's weird, like this whole, like, I think
55:55
I'm telling this story, but they pulled so far
55:58
back, they're not even touching it. I had a case
56:02
like that where I was explaining to them that
56:05
just by giving a name, that name does not equate
56:12
them being Indigenous. There's absolutely nothing
56:15
that says. And he took great offense to that
56:19
and was very angry and actually kept half the
56:22
pay. wasn't worth going to court for it or anything,
56:27
but it was like, okay, you're, you're, you're
56:29
on your journey. You're working through something
56:32
here. I'm just telling you that if you want to
56:34
tell the story about this great relationship
56:35
with these indigenous characters and these, you
56:38
know, in this particular world with these, with
56:40
these other white characters, it's not happening.
56:43
What's on the page is not what you think it is.
56:46
Yep. Yep. And then you, and as you know, there'll
56:49
be, there'll be a outcome. when the public publishes,
56:53
you know, as a result of that. So, yeah, yeah.
56:57
You know, what can I do? Yeah. Well, that is
57:02
all the time we have for today. I like I said,
57:04
I could just talk about this all day. I know
57:07
it's good stuff. I have tons of questions I didn't
57:10
even get to because it was just so good. But
57:13
thank you. I would love to talk to you again.
57:15
I would love to. I would love to do that. Yeah.
57:18
Yeah. Yes, for sure. For sure. And I would love
57:21
to stay in touch with you too. Yes, absolutely.
57:23
You're doing amazing work. I appreciate you.
57:26
I appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
57:28
you. Thank you. And to our listeners, whether
57:31
you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford,
57:34
Massachusetts or across the globe on such podcast
57:36
channels as Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Amazon
57:39
Prime, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed
57:42
this episode and we'll see you next time. Happy
57:45
storytelling. .