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The Hacker Who Moved to Mexico City · onefjef

• 0:01
  We grew up in the streets.
• 0:02
  I mean, it was- Wow … it was rough.
• 0:03
  So, like, gunfire?
• 0:04
  Gunfire.
• 0:05
  We, we started carrying knives at age seven.
• 0:07
  Wow.
• 0:08
  But that was a good thing because then people were reluctant to beat the
• 0:11
  shit out of each other 'cause, that they knew everybody might have one.
• 0:14
  Right.
• 0:14
  So it was like detente.
• 0:16
  It was like the cold, cold war with, like, Gorbachev and Reagan.
• 0:19
  Everybody's carrying weapons that nobody's… Like, so it
• 0:21
  was actually an improvement.
• 0:22
  Problem solved.
• 0:25
  This
• 0:26
  is episode 62 of onefjef.
• 0:29
  Episode
• 0:31
  62. Episode 62.
• 0:35
  Episode 62.
• 0:37
  Hello de nuevo, mis amigos.
• 0:40
  Hello again, my friends.
• 0:42
  Here we are again.
• 0:44
  Here we are.
• 0:45
  Aqui estamos.
• 0:47
  I hope you're thriving, as I always do, and happy beginning
• 0:52
  of autumn to those who celebrate.
• 0:54
  Autumn in Mexico City feels much like the summer, except that the nearly
• 0:58
  daily rainstorms are no more, which is good, although I now have to water
• 1:04
  the plants on my terrace instead of letting Mother Nature take care of them.
• 1:08
  I'll get through this.
• 1:10
  Honestly, the rainy season here didn't feel as rainy as I thought it
• 1:13
  would, although it was apparently one of the rainiest summers ever here.
• 1:18
  Mexico City is very large, though, and so I guess it rained more in
• 1:23
  other areas than it did in mine.
• 1:26
  Or maybe I'm just not a good gauge of rainfall totals.
• 1:29
  Whatever.
• 1:31
  I will miss autumn in Ohio, though, what with the changing of the leaves and
• 1:36
  all, but I won't miss the eerie dread of another Ohio winter approaching.
• 1:42
  Not at all.
• 1:43
  It's gonna be a bit strange to not experience a horrible,
• 1:46
  cold winter this year.
• 1:49
  Good strange, though.
• 1:51
  Not bad strange.
• 1:53
  But I digress.
• 1:55
  I met today's guest in a Spanish class this past spring.
• 2:00
  The very same class that I met Jonathan the Hitchhiking German in episode
• 2:05
  58, which you should go back and listen to if you haven't yet, after
• 2:09
  you listen to this one, of course.
• 2:11
  Ted is not a hitchhiking German.
• 2:14
  He is, in fact, a retired computer hacker from Boston, which is why he asked that I
• 2:20
  don't use his last name in this podcast.
• 2:23
  I obliged.
• 2:25
  My conversation with Ted proves my theory that expats are an
• 2:30
  inherently fascinating bunch.
• 2:34
  Because this conversation is truly, well, fascinating, and I'm willing
• 2:41
  to bet you're gonna think so too.
• 2:43
  But before that conversation, might I remind you of the Patreon page that I have
• 2:49
  been reminding you of for 62 episodes.
• 2:52
  Well, 61 episodes, but now this is the 62nd time.
• 2:56
  But there's bonus episodes I've reminded you in, so quite a few times.
• 2:59
  Some of you, the elite, have heeded my Patreon call and gone to
• 3:04
  patreon.com/onefjef and signed up.
• 3:07
  Others of you have not.
• 3:10
  So once again, I humbly ask you, go to patreon.com/onefjef and sign up for as
• 3:15
  little as $5 a month, and support this fledgling little wee baby of a podcast
• 3:23
  as it tries to find its feet, tries to find its audience, and tries to find some
• 3:29
  money for all the hard work that I put into it every single week just for you.
• 3:37
  Go to patreon.com/onefjef and sign up.
• 3:39
  Thank you very much.
• 3:40
  And to my ongoing Patreon subscribers, the elite, the best of the best,
• 3:47
  I love you all, I appreciate you all, and thank you once again.
• 3:52
  Thank you for listening.
• 3:55
  Thank you for being here.
• 3:57
  Here is my conversation with Ted from my Spanish class
• 4:03
  My girlfriend got pulled over by the policia.
• 4:06
  Oh, really?
• 4:07
  And she, uh, she held her ground.
• 4:09
  She, quote-unquote, "ripped them a new one," as we say in the States.
• 4:12
  Wow.
• 4:12
  What,
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  what did she get pulled over for?
• 4:14
  Um, allegedly, like, the little frame around the license plate.
• 4:17
  Oh.
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  But she got pulled over for a bribe, or she w- they wanted a bribe.
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  How much did
• 4:21
  she have to pay?
• 4:22
  Nothing.
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  She said, "Tow my car.
• 4:24
  I'm not paying a bribe." And, uh, the guy went back to his car and came back and
• 4:30
  said, "Well, we'll just give you a warning this time." 'Cause she called his bluff.
• 4:34
  That was here in Veracruz?
• 4:35
  That was about 10 miles outside- Wow … the city.
• 4:37
  Uh, so Ted, we met in, uh, Spanish class.
• 4:41
  Yes.
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  Uh, one of the stranger
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  I mean, I haven't taken a lot of Spanish classes, but that class
• 4:45
  is, uh, it's got some character.
• 4:47
  Oh, yeah.
• 4:47
  It's got some … Yeah, yeah, has some spice.
• 4:49
  Anyway, what, uh, what brought you to Mexico City, Ted?
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  Uh, I retired around four years ago.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Early retirement.
• 4:56
  Ah, very well.
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  I highly encourage it if folks can do it.
• 4:59
  I'm doing my best, Ted.
• 5:00
  Let me
• 5:00
  tell you.
• 5:01
  Um, and, uh, I never wanted to, uh, experience a Boston winter again.
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  That was one of my- Totally,
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  yes
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  … uh, must, must avoid things.
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  And I had a friend, uh, Juan-
• 5:14
  Hmm
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  … who went to MIT m- many years ago.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And we were having dinner, and, uh, Juan said, "Hey, I grew up and my
• 5:22
  family still lives in Mexico City.
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  Why don't you check out Mexico City?"
• 5:25
  Right.
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  " The climate is perfect, and it's a great place." Hmm.
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  So about four years ago, I, uh, hopped on an airplane and came here and-
• 5:35
  Huh … rented a couple of Airbnbs-
• 5:37
  Huh
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  … and, uh, instantly fell in love with the city.
• 5:40
  What was your first impression of the city?
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  I think, uh, in this area especially, just the, uh, I d- you, you s- you think
• 5:47
  of a large city and 20 million people.
• 5:49
  Yeah,
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  yeah,
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  yeah.
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  But then the green.
• 5:51
  Yeah.
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  Just the- Yeah, yeah … the, the beautiful, you know-
• 5:54
  Yeah
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  … floras and-
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  It's like we're in a forest.
• 5:57
  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  In a, in a, in a very urban city.
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  Right.
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  So, yeah.
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  It's very, very lush.
• 6:02
  So you came to Mexico City for, for how long?
• 6:05
  Um, I think the first time was, uh, I, I spent a couple weeks in Cancun
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  'cause I just wanted to lay on a beach.
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  Of course,
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  right, right.
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  And then a couple of weeks here.
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  I met up with my friend Juan-
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  Yeah
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  … and his wife Carol, and, uh, they showed me around a bit.
• 6:18
  Mm-hmm.
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  And, uh-
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  And that was what year?
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  This was … So four years ago, I guess.
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  2018.
• 6:22
  Okay, so right after COVID.
• 6:23
  So the- Yeah … flood had begun by this point.
• 6:26
  Yeah, exactly.
• 6:27
  Yeah.
• 6:27
  Yeah,
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  yeah.
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  Uh, there were, uh, muy, muy Americanos there.
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  Muchos Americanos,
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  si, si.
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  Um,
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  so yeah.
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  What did you do?
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  Were you just a tourist?
• 6:35
  Yeah, yeah.
• 6:36
  All right.
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  I just walked around, and it's, it's interesting.
• 6:39
  The f- the first Airbnb I got was in, uh, Juarez.
• 6:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:43
  Um-
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  Same
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  … and, uh, I'm a book lover.
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  Right.
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  And I was looking for some books in English-
• 6:50
  Yeah
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  which sometimes can be a little challenging.
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  For sure, for sure.
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  Or you get, like, one shelf-
• 6:54
  Right
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  … which is understandable.
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  And I googled this bookstore called Under the Volcano-
• 7:01
  Uh-huh
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  … based on a Malcolm Lowry novel- Uh-huh.
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  Okay … which I actually read this year.
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  All right.
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  Yeah, it was pretty cool.
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  All right.
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  And I said, "Well, gee."
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  So I wandered down from Juarez-
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  Uh-huh
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  … and I found the bookstore, which is a, a highly recommended bookstore.
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  It's in an old American Legion-
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  Oh,
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  cool … kind of stucco building- Oh … with all these World War II-
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  Right on
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  … pictures and stuff.
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  Huh.
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  And it's got big, uh, big iron grates.
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  Yeah.
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  And there was a sign outside to say, "If you're coming for the bookstore,
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  yell into the gates, 'Books.
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  Books.
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  I want books.'"
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  Is it just an English bookstore?
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  It's a all English used bookstore- All English, all right … used bookstore.
• 7:41
  Oh, right on.
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  By the o-
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  You have to, I have to get that address, 'cause that's,
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  uh- Yeah … that's amazing.
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  It's a gem.
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  Yeah.
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  And, uh, so I yelled upstairs, and, uh, this young woman came down and let me up.
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  Yeah.
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  And she said, "Have you been here before?" And I said, "No." And she basically
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  said, "Okay, all the books are used.
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  The prices are marked." Hmm.
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  "We take, uh, efectivo, cash." Yeah, right, right, right.
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  "Or PayPal." And then she picked up her book and started reading.
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  Yeah.
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  And I, this bookstore was just ama- I'm a bookstore guy, and this- Tons,
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  big, big?
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  Uh, no, just one large room.
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  Oh, just full of books.
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  But full of just amazing fic- I'm a fiction guy too- Yeah … so
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  this was, this was very near- Oh … and dear to my heart.
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  Books,
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  man
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  So, so what happened, I, I bought… Uh, let's think.
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  I think I picked up, uh, Salman Rushdie's first book.
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  Okay.
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  Midnight's Children.
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  All right.
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  Good book.
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  And then, uh, so I, I get out of the bookstore, and I say, "Well, I'd like
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  to read this book." And I looked at the map, and there was Parque Mexico- See?
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  … for my first time.
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  And, uh, they have those nice little reading areas.
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  Uh-huh.
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  And I sat there and read this book and wandered around that
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  park and, and, and I was sold.
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  Magic.
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  I was sold.
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  Magic.
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  For sure.
• 8:49
  Yeah.
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  So how many times have you been back?
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  Uh, every year since then.
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  Every year since then
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  for the- Every year.
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  And then you're gonna move here.
• 8:56
  Uh, I'm thinking of moving here.
• 8:58
  Absolutely.
• 8:59
  W- what do you think it is?
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  Like, for me, I think it's the, um, the, the randomness of it, right?
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  The architecture's amazing, but it just like one street to the next it'll
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  be these crazy old colonial houses, and then suddenly you're seeing like
• 9:13
  modern buildings, et cetera, et cetera.
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  I kinda love that.
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  It feels very like, uh, you never know what you're gonna find.
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  You know what I mean?
• 9:19
  I see.
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  Plus the food.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Uh, I, I, the, the architecture- Yeah, yeah … as you
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  mentioned, is just amazing.
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  Yeah.
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  You got the Spanish architecture- Yeah, yeah … then a modern duplex.
• 9:28
  Yeah.
• 9:28
  And then cru- some crumbling building that just has so much character.
• 9:32
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Or you, you peek down a little, uh, eh, through somebody's, uh, doorway
• 9:37
  and there's this huge courtyard-
• 9:39
  Yeah
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  that they have.
• 9:40
  Yeah.
• 9:40
  Yeah.
• 9:40
  Um, I g- I, one thing that always gets me is is I kind of think of the city,
• 9:45
  I guess this is a, a metaphor perhaps, if you go to Parque Mexico, there's a
• 9:50
  big kind of, um, amphitheater there.
• 9:52
  Yep, yep.
• 9:53
  And if you go, the, I think the best time is Sun- Sunday evening.
• 9:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:57
  There's no rules.
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  Yeah.
• 9:59
  If you have a pu- pit bull and you wanna play catch with the pit bull
• 10:02
  in the middle- Do whatever you want … there's, there's little four-year-olds
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  l- learning how to ride bikes.
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  There's guys whipping Frisbees across- Oh, yep … maybe 100
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  yard, you know, the amphitheater.
• 10:12
  Right, right,
• 10:13
  right.
• 10:13
  Guys doing tarot card readings.
• 10:15
  There's chara- Yeah, yeah … tarot card.
• 10:16
  And then a- around the, uh, perimeter there's salsa dancing.
• 10:20
  Yeah.
• 10:21
  You can pay for those classes.
• 10:22
  Yep.
• 10:23
  Incredibly sensual, too.
• 10:24
  Yeah.
• 10:24
  I mean, it's just like you, you- It's a vibe … you w- I always joke, I
• 10:27
  say, "This is like, this is hotter than porn." Just watching, watching these
• 10:31
  people do this amazing, exotic- Yeah
• 10:33
  sensual- Yeah … um, salsa dance.
• 10:35
  Yeah.
• 10:36
  So, yeah.
• 10:36
  Yeah, it really, it is a vibe, uh, Mexico City, and I don't really
• 10:39
  know how else to describe it.
• 10:40
  And, and, and Parque Mexico is really, the dog park there is,
• 10:43
  there's like, I watch it for hours.
• 10:45
  Yeah.
• 10:45
  Um, so many dogs.
• 10:47
  Have you been mugged?
• 10:48
  I have never been mugged.
• 10:49
  Okay.
• 10:50
  Uh, I've never had a problem with, uh, anybody.
• 10:53
  Yeah.
• 10:53
  I've been on, I've been on beaches around Mexico, and I leave my bag there.
• 10:57
  Yeah.
• 10:57
  I leave the passport in the hotel.
• 10:58
  Yeah,
• 10:59
  yeah, that's a good idea.
• 10:59
  But-
• 11:00
  Yeah
• 11:00
  … I have never had, uh, remotely any problem.
• 11:03
  And I, I often tell folks when they, uh, mention the dangerous, the alleged
• 11:08
  dangerous factor- Yeah … I said, "I honestly feel safer on a Saturday night in
• 11:13
  midnight or 1:00 AM in Mexico City- Yeah
• 11:16
  downtown- For sure … versus downtown Boston."
• 11:19
  Yeah.
• 11:19
  I do think, and I've heard more stories that have surprised me lately of people
• 11:23
  saying, "Just, you know, be careful. Don't walk down-" Yeah … dark streets
• 11:26
  in the middle of the night, you know, 'cause it's not the criminals necessarily,
• 11:30
  it's the police that shake you down.
• 11:32
  Yeah, I see.
• 11:32
  Especially if you're a foreigner.
• 11:33
  Mm. But they t- I've decided if e- that ever happens to me I'm just
• 11:36
  gonna act like I don't s- I, I don't, confused, or act like I speak French
• 11:39
  or something, and they'll eventually be like, "I don't care." Yeah.
• 11:41
  "You know, this is not worth my time." Did you start learning Spanish right away?
• 11:44
  Uh, I, it, it's in fits and starts.
• 11:47
  Yeah?
• 11:47
  So at the time I had an American girlfriend-
• 11:50
  Ah,
• 11:51
  does this help … who was fairly fluent in Spanish.
• 11:52
  Oh, well, that
• 11:53
  does help.
• 11:54
  Um, however, my attempts were, uh, met with laughter in many cases.
• 11:58
  By her?
• 11:59
  By her and- Oh,
• 12:00
  that's helpful
• 12:00
  … the Americans were much more stricter than, uh, Mexicanos.
• 12:04
  Oh,
• 12:04
  really?
• 12:04
  That was just- Of course … my, my take.
• 12:06
  Of course.
• 12:06
  They were very like, "No, no, it's pequeño." You know, like- Yeah,
• 12:08
  yeah, yeah … very, very precise.
• 12:09
  Gotta follow the rules, man.
• 12:11
  Yeah.
• 12:11
  Yeah, yeah.
• 12:11
  So that was a little bit discouraging.
• 12:13
  So I'd kinda start on and off.
• 12:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:15
  Um, sometimes I went i- uh, tried to learn, uh, Español to the point where
• 12:19
  I'm almost getting a migraine like- Yeah
• 12:21
  like two or three years ago.
• 12:22
  Yeah, yeah.
• 12:23
  And sometimes I'm q- I'm an older guy, so I-
• 12:25
  Sure
• 12:26
  … think it's a little more- Yeah … difficult, uh- Yeah … you know?
• 12:28
  Um, but I met this, uh, this friend Lima.
• 12:32
  Okay.
• 12:32
  And, um, so her story was her dad was from Lima, thus her name.
• 12:38
  That's convenient.
• 12:38
  Lima Peru.
• 12:38
  Yeah.
• 12:39
  And her mom was from Okinawa.
• 12:41
  Oh, wow
• 12:42
  … Japan.
• 12:42
  And, uh, she was here working for the United Nations.
• 12:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:47
  And she was like, I don't, I forget, the B2 level Spanish.
• 12:50
  Right.
• 12:50
  So she spoke fluent Japanese, really good English-
• 12:53
  Right
• 12:53
  … and incredible Spanish.
• 12:55
  So I kind of, I was like, "Geez, I wanna do that." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:58
  And it's, it's as, as you know, it's- It's hard
• 13:00
  it's a challenge.
• 13:01
  Yeah.
• 13:01
  It's- It's, it's really hard.
• 13:03
  But it's rewarding.
• 13:03
  Mm. Like, when you understand something else- Oh … and you're on the street and
• 13:05
  you're like, "Oh, I actually understand that now." I'm like, "Oh, it actually, it
• 13:08
  actually works." It doesn't happen very often, let's be clear, but when it does
• 13:11
  happen, it's a magical, magical time.
• 13:13
  Do you know there's 17 tenses?
• 13:16
  I-
• 13:17
  17, Ted.
• 13:18
  I- I'm working on- Sev- … the first or second one.
• 13:21
  When, when my teacher told me that, which was just this week, he
• 13:24
  was like, "You shouldn't ask, but 17." And I was like, "Oh my God.
• 13:27
  No thank you." You grew up in Boston?
• 13:29
  Yes.
• 13:29
  I grew up in, uh, Chelsea, Massachusetts.
• 13:32
  It's a, uh, little gritty town- Yeah
• 13:34
  right over the bridge from Boston.
• 13:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:36
  In, um, in the '70s.
• 13:38
  Yeah.
• 13:39
  Thoroughly middle class.
• 13:40
  We, we grew up single- Yeah … single welfare mom.
• 13:42
  Oh, yeah.
• 13:43
  Tough streets.
• 13:44
  What
• 13:44
  happened to your dad?
• 13:44
  Just-
• 13:45
  Uh, alcoholic.
• 13:46
  Oh.
• 13:46
  Left.
• 13:46
  Did you ever, do you remember him or did he leave?
• 13:48
  Ne- never met him.
• 13:48
  Oh, wow.
• 13:49
  No.
• 13:49
  Are you ever curious?
• 13:50
  Um, I, I always think about, like, people who are adopted-
• 13:54
  Mm-hmm
• 13:54
  … and that f- they'll track down folks- Yeah … and they'll go to every length.
• 13:58
  Eh, my mom raised us.
• 14:00
  Um-
• 14:00
  It's also like if he didn't try to find you, why should you go find him?
• 14:03
  Exactly.
• 14:03
  Right.
• 14:04
  Exactly.
• 14:05
  Yeah.
• 14:05
  But, um, yeah.
• 14:06
  Grew up in a really gritty town.
• 14:09
  My brother still, now that we're both thoroughly middle
• 14:11
  class, he'll still- Right
• 14:12
  he'll still send me an email, um, uh… It's, the city's a
• 14:15
  little, little, uh, nicer now.
• 14:18
  Yeah.
• 14:18
  Um, but he would say, "Hey, we beat Compton," meaning when
• 14:21
  they would list the top 10 crime cities- … Chelsea, Massachusetts-
• 14:25
  Wow … would be above Compton.
• 14:26
  So, so it, oh, so
• 14:27
  it was really-
• 14:28
  Oh, we were, we grew up in the streets.
• 14:29
  I mean, it was-
• 14:30
  Wow
• 14:30
  it was rough.
• 14:30
  So, like, gunfire?
• 14:32
  Gunfire.
• 14:32
  We, we started carrying knives at age seven.
• 14:34
  Wow.
• 14:35
  But that was a good thing because then people were reluctant to beat
• 14:38
  the shit out of each other 'cause, that they knew everybody might.
• 14:41
  Right.
• 14:41
  So it was like detente.
• 14:43
  It was like the cold Cold War with, like, Gorbachev and Reagan.
• 14:46
  Everybody's
• 14:47
  carrying weapons, like nobody's…
• 14:48
  So it was actually an improvement.
• 14:50
  Problem solved.
• 14:51
  Right.
• 14:51
  So did you ever get in any s- any scuffles or anything when you were-
• 14:55
  We were always fighting.
• 14:56
  Really?
• 14:58
  We were always fighting.
• 14:58
  The, the, the challenge in a community like that, and, and I've reflected
• 15:01
  a bit back, actually I was talking to my, my girlfriend about this
• 15:04
  recently, is that, you know, if you grow up in that type of like South
• 15:07
  Side of Chicago- Sure, sure, sure
• 15:08
  or, you have two choices.
• 15:10
  Well, uh, technically three.
• 15:12
  Uh-huh.
• 15:12
  You can either be a lion or you can be a lamb- Or the third choice, that's,
• 15:17
  this is a, a, a smaller percentage- Right … you can be a comedian.
• 15:21
  Ah, fair enough.
• 15:21
  Yeah.
• 15:22
  ' Cause if you're a comedian, you kind of get both sides-
• 15:23
  Yeah … are kind of- That's
• 15:24
  kind of what I-
• 15:24
  living through this … got through high school.
• 15:25
  Yeah.
• 15:26
  So honestly, I didn't like being a lamb, so, uh, I was a, I was a tough kid.
• 15:31
  And you weren't funny enough to be a comedian- I, I, no … so you had to- No,
• 15:33
  I wasn't … you had to carry a knife.
• 15:34
  So do you ever, like, did you usually win the fights?
• 15:37
  Um, here's the situation.
• 15:40
  So when you and I was about seven or eight-
• 15:42
  All right
• 15:42
  … and this was, this was badass, you know- Sure, sure
• 15:45
  … ' 70s.
• 15:45
  Yeah.
• 15:45
  Yeah.
• 15:45
  And I, I tell my son the challenge at that time was that, you know, and people
• 15:50
  don't realize how important abortion is.
• 15:53
  Yeah.
• 15:54
  You know, this was generations of kids who if there were abortions, we probably
• 15:59
  none of them would have ever existed.
• 16:01
  Right.
• 16:02
  And all the dads were out of this- Right … neighborhood.
• 16:03
  These neighborhoods were entirely women
• 16:06
  centric.
• 16:07
  Oh, like single moms and all that?
• 16:07
  Yep.
• 16:07
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:08
  They were all single moms who- Wow … we used to joke, uh, I joke
• 16:11
  with my friend now, I say, "Geez, back in the day they should have
• 16:13
  taken one of those dust croppers-
• 16:15
  and, and, and just, and just thrown Prozac out of- … 'cause all the m- We
• 16:20
  joke every- Right … every mom back then would lay on the couch- Be depressed.
• 16:23
  Yeah, yeah, yeah … with a cigarette and watch the soap operas and-
• 16:25
  Yeah, yeah … the telenovelas.
• 16:27
  Yeah.
• 16:27
  So yeah.
• 16:27
  Yeah, yeah.
• 16:28
  Yeah.
• 16:28
  But, um, yeah, I fought enough.
• 16:29
  If you keep fighting somebody, especially if they're older than you-
• 16:32
  Yeah
• 16:33
  um, the neighborhood looks at it as like, how many times are you
• 16:37
  gonna beat up that little kid?
• 16:38
  Uh-huh.
• 16:39
  So at a certain point, I did get a reputation.
• 16:42
  Yeah.
• 16:42
  I, I, I'm the same height I was when I was 12, so- Right … hope that I-
• 16:46
  That
• 16:46
  helps … started early.
• 16:47
  Yeah.
• 16:47
  And I had a, I had a very sharp tongue.
• 16:50
  I cringe at… So my, my main weapon was my tongue.
• 16:54
  Okay.
• 16:54
  Yeah.
• 16:54
  I could not repeat what I would say.
• 16:55
  Your mom, blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 16:57
  blah.
• 16:57
  Oh, yeah.
• 16:58
  That's light, but yeah.
• 16:59
  Wow.
• 17:00
  Wow.
• 17:01
  Uh, that's unexpected.
• 17:02
  Anyway.
• 17:02
  Unexpected touch.
• 17:04
  Were there ever guns?
• 17:05
  So some of us, we were, we had about a gang of 10 people.
• 17:10
  All right.
• 17:10
  Um- Did you have
• 17:11
  a name?
• 17:11
  Was there a name for
• 17:12
  the gang?
• 17:12
  No, no, no.
• 17:13
  Okay.
• 17:14
  If we were all Black kids-
• 17:16
  Uh-huh
• 17:16
  … we would've been a gang.
• 17:17
  We would've been in jail.
• 17:18
  Oh,
• 17:18
  so the white people- We- … made it not a gang.
• 17:20
  The cops would come by, and most of the cops were white and racist-
• 17:23
  Oh … and say, "Oh, just-"
• 17:24
  I
• 17:25
  see … "All right. Just go home."
• 17:26
  Huh.
• 17:26
  " Go, go over there and- Yeah, yeah … you know- Crazy kids
• 17:28
  go to that parking lot and drink." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:30
  Just leave us alone.
• 17:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 17:30
  We're gonna-
• 17:31
  Get the Black people.
• 17:32
  Yeah.
• 17:32
  Yeah, yeah.
• 17:32
  Sadly.
• 17:33
  So we were never labeled a gang, but we had about 10 or 12 of us, and
• 17:38
  there were really big, tough guys.
• 17:40
  Uh-huh.
• 17:40
  And that saved us from… We really didn't have to fight,
• 17:42
  'cause we all protected each other.
• 17:45
  Oh, wow.
• 17:45
  So f- and, and the other thing is we were a good crew.
• 17:47
  Right.
• 17:48
  We didn't, we didn't fuck anybody over.
• 17:50
  Right.
• 17:50
  We didn't deal heavy drugs.
• 17:51
  Right.
• 17:52
  Are there knife fights?
• 17:53
  I don't like to talk a lot.
• 17:55
  The, the… I-
• 17:56
  There were some knife
• 17:56
  fights?
• 17:56
  There were some knife fights.
• 17:57
  Wow,
• 17:58
  dude.
• 17:58
  But, but also, uh, yeah, but- Yeah, I'd rather
• 18:02
  Yeah, that was, that was-
• 18:02
  Wow.
• 18:02
  When did you realize that your childhood growing up was different than the-
• 18:08
  I'll defer to my brother recently told me this story.
• 18:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:10
  So he's in his mid-50s, and he said, um … And just, you know, we're white
• 18:15
  guys- Yeah, yeah, yeah … because we're on, you know- Yeah … The Voice Only.
• 18:18
  My brother had this really interesting observation, and he shared this
• 18:22
  with me only about three years ago.
• 18:23
  He said, he goes, "Ted," we were, you know, we were watching TV, and, uh,
• 18:28
  maybe he was, like, eight or nine.
• 18:30
  Right.
• 18:30
  And Good Times-
• 18:31
  Mm-hmm
• 18:32
  … was a, I'll-
• 18:33
  I remember,
• 18:33
  yeah … give some background here for folks
• 18:35
  … old, old sitcom, uh, I forget-
• 18:36
  An old sitcom.
• 18:37
  What was
• 18:37
  the plot of that?
• 18:38
  A working class/poor African American family- Uh-huh
• 18:42
  who lived in housing, housing projects.
• 18:44
  Right.
• 18:45
  And the janitor would come up and make jokes.
• 18:46
  Right, right, right, right.
• 18:46
  It was a
• 18:47
  comedy.
• 18:47
  Yeah.
• 18:48
  And what was interesting, my brother said, he goes, "Geez, Ted, you know, I
• 18:52
  was like eight or nine," or, you know, whenever that came, show came out.
• 18:55
  And he goes, "And I was watching the show, and it wasn't a race thing, like
• 19:00
  we were white and they were Black."
• 19:01
  Right.
• 19:01
  He goes, "I was really listening to the jokes they made, and they were making
• 19:05
  jokes about how poor they were." And he goes, "Then I looked at our, our family.
• 19:09
  I said, 'Wow, we're really poor.'" "Because this family's," you know, so
• 19:13
  that was the poorest kind of thing he saw.
• 19:15
  Wow.
• 19:15
  You know?
• 19:15
  Yeah.
• 19:16
  Wow.
• 19:16
  Yeah.
• 19:16
  We-
• 19:17
  Um, interesting.
• 19:18
  Interesting.
• 19:18
  So did you go to … Like, you finished high school, I assume.
• 19:21
  Yeah.
• 19:21
  Yeah.
• 19:21
  Yeah.
• 19:22
  And then you went, did you go to college?
• 19:23
  Yes.
• 19:23
  Where'd you go to college?
• 19:24
  What'd you go to college for?
• 19:25
  So I went to, um … So the, the real benefit of growing up in the Boston area-
• 19:30
  Mm-hmm
• 19:30
  … ton of colleges.
• 19:31
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:32
  And back in the '80s, they were ver- public colleges were cheap,
• 19:36
  affordable, and excellent.
• 19:38
  Yeah.
• 19:38
  We can only dream.
• 19:39
  Yeah.
• 19:39
  Right?
• 19:39
  Yeah.
• 19:40
  So, um, in high school, um, I was still a tough kid.
• 19:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:44
  I would s- you know, there was, uh, I was, I was telling my, my girlfriend, I
• 19:48
  said, we were doing a theater production.
• 19:50
  Uh-huh.
• 19:50
  And me and my friend, we were so tough we could do anything.
• 19:53
  Yeah.
• 19:53
  We could skip rope.
• 19:54
  We could hang out with the gay kids.
• 19:55
  Right, right, right.
• 19:56
  Nobody was gonna m- you know?
• 19:57
  Right.
• 19:58
  You know, nobody's gonna mess with us.
• 20:00
  So we did the theater production.
• 20:02
  Wow.
• 20:02
  We did the background, and we didn't, weren't actors, but we did the- Oh, right.
• 20:05
  But still
• 20:05
  … sets and the lights- Yeah, yeah … and everything, and we loved it.
• 20:07
  Right.
• 20:07
  Yeah.
• 20:08
  And, um- What was interesting was, is that, um, there was one point
• 20:13
  where I got up in class and I said, "Hey, I'd like everybody to go to…"
• 20:15
  It was Peter Shaffer, The Private Affair.
• 20:17
  Okay.
• 20:17
  Not your s- typical high school-
• 20:19
  Yeah, never heard of it.
• 20:20
  Yeah
• 20:20
  … great, great play.
• 20:21
  And I said, you know, "Hey, I'd like to have people come to the play," and there
• 20:26
  was, um… There's a longer digression around- Of course … Boston and racism.
• 20:29
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:30
  But there was this, um, guy who, you know, basically was like, "Fuck you.
• 20:33
  Why should we go to this play?
• 20:35
  It's for pussies."
• 20:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:36
  And at that point I said, "All right. After school, let's go." So this is
• 20:39
  what… You know, you're, you're, you're trying to get folks to go to a play.
• 20:42
  Like threatening them to go to the play.
• 20:44
  And,
• 20:44
  and, and they're like, you know, like… Anyway, so.
• 20:47
  Did he go to the play?
• 20:48
  Uh, he never went.
• 20:49
  Oh, boy.
• 20:49
  He should kick
• 20:50
  his a- But the background is, um, it was a Catholic high school,
• 20:52
  all boys Catholic high school.
• 20:54
  Ah,
• 20:54
  that it… Yeah.
• 20:55
  Um, it was a very, very tough high school in East Boston.
• 20:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:59
  And the background is, is that busing occurred in the '70s in Boston.
• 21:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:04
  So every racist white family didn't want their kids to go to
• 21:08
  school with Black kids- Right
• 21:09
  all these horrible kids.
• 21:10
  Of
• 21:11
  course.
• 21:11
  So they sent them to the Catholic school that accepted anybody at that point.
• 21:14
  Hmm.
• 21:14
  So it was kind of me and kind of our multicultural crew- Right,
• 21:18
  right,
• 21:18
  right … against all these- Right … white racist kids, which
• 21:20
  was another kind of- Huh … dynamic.
• 21:22
  Yeah, for sure.
• 21:23
  But that said, the priests were dying off, so we got-
• 21:25
  a couple of teachers, and who were really just genuinely, "I
• 21:28
  wanna give back to my community."
• 21:30
  Uh-huh.
• 21:31
  And I had one teacher who basically, since the priests
• 21:34
  were… Well, that's another story.
• 21:36
  Mm. Wow.
• 21:36
  Um, doing their thing.
• 21:39
  This guy could teach anything, and he grew up in the same kind of community.
• 21:43
  Uh-huh.
• 21:43
  And he taught, um, political thought and, uh, economics to us-
• 21:47
  Okay
• 21:48
  and Marxism.
• 21:49
  Of course.
• 21:49
  And, uh, you know, the, the- That's how
• 21:51
  they get you.
• 21:51
  Right.
• 21:51
  Right.
• 21:52
  There you go.
• 21:52
  Right.
• 21:53
  And he was really a mentor to me.
• 21:55
  Uh-huh.
• 21:55
  And I read, I read Plato's Republic.
• 21:57
  Wow.
• 21:57
  How old were you?
• 21:58
  Uh, 16, 17.
• 21:59
  I've never even read Plato's Republic.
• 22:01
  Yeah.
• 22:01
  Yeah,
• 22:01
  yeah.
• 22:01
  And I just, I was hooked on philosophy.
• 22:04
  Oh, wow.
• 22:04
  So, um- My brother and I took two very different paths.
• 22:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:09
  So we grow up with- when we were hung- growing up, we were
• 22:12
  hungry, there was no heat.
• 22:13
  This was the real-
• 22:13
  Right,
• 22:14
  right, right … the real deal.
• 22:15
  So my brother and I, back to TV, he loved TV, and he watched Leave
• 22:20
  It to Beaver and Father Knows Best.
• 22:22
  Me too.
• 22:22
  Yeah, yeah.
• 22:22
  These iconic American, the perfect family, and the-
• 22:26
  Yeah
• 22:26
  … the wife's always got the hair up, and it's- Yeah, yeah,
• 22:28
  yeah
• 22:29
  … there's some little issue with a young boy.
• 22:31
  Right.
• 22:31
  The most minor issue of all time, right.
• 22:33
  And so my brother just fell in love with that lifestyle.
• 22:37
  He said, "This is a window to a different world."
• 22:39
  He liked the idea of, like, the very stable family that
• 22:42
  was portrayed as a TV show.
• 22:44
  Exactly.
• 22:44
  Right.
• 22:44
  He totally was hooked on that.
• 22:46
  He wanted to be Wally or The Beaver, do you think?
• 22:48
  Um, I, I was more The Beaver.
• 22:50
  Yeah.
• 22:50
  He's Wally.
• 22:51
  Maybe he was more, more Wally.
• 22:51
  Yeah, yeah.
• 22:51
  All right.
• 22:52
  So he went to … It's a really interesting story.
• 22:54
  He, he said, "I wanna make money. I wanna have nice things."
• 22:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:58
  " I wanna live this middle class life that I've seen on TV." So he went to the
• 23:02
  library, and he looked up careers that paid the most after four years in college.
• 23:08
  Okay.
• 23:08
  And it was mechanical engineering-
• 23:10
  Oh, well, that checks
• 23:10
  out … of all things.
• 23:11
  Yeah.
• 23:11
  And he's still a mechanical engineer.
• 23:13
  He's got the white picket fence- Wow … the big mansion.
• 23:15
  He did it.
• 23:16
  Wow.
• 23:16
  For me, I just fell in love with reading and literature and philosophy.
• 23:20
  Uh-huh.
• 23:21
  And I said, "I'm gonna go study philosophy."
• 23:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:23
  And I almost wasn't gonna go to college, but my mentor was like, "Ted, go."
• 23:26
  Sure.
• 23:26
  "It's not as bad as this jungle you're in." Yeah.
• 23:28
  "You're in high school. Go." That
• 23:29
  was a good advice.
• 23:30
  Yeah.
• 23:30
  And, uh, I think it was about $1,000 a year.
• 23:33
  Jesus.
• 23:33
  Where'd you go to school?
• 23:34
  Uh, University of Massachusetts at Boston.
• 23:36
  Oh, nice.
• 23:37
  Nice.
• 23:37
  Um, no dorms.
• 23:38
  Oh.
• 23:38
  So it was really a urban- And you commu- you were commuting
• 23:40
  commuter,
• 23:40
  commuter school.
• 23:41
  So I'd hop- Wow … on bus.
• 23:42
  It took me about an hour and a half to get there each day.
• 23:44
  So
• 23:44
  you're still living in the, you know, the neighborhood.
• 23:46
  Well, that's the thing, you know?
• 23:47
  So I'm going and studying Wittgenstein and Heidegger and Lovingman- Right,
• 23:50
  right, right … and reading J.H.
• 23:52
  Florence, and then you go back home and, you know, the guys be-
• 23:55
  the drug addicts beeping the horn saying, "Oh, you wanna buy some-"
• 23:58
  Right
• 23:58
  … " stuff?" You know?
• 23:59
  Right, right.
• 23:59
  Or we're just drinking on the corner.
• 24:01
  So it was a, it was- Huh … still that kind of-
• 24:03
  That's really interesting
• 24:03
  … dichotomy.
• 24:04
  Yeah.
• 24:04
  It must have been eye-opening, though.
• 24:06
  Yeah
• 24:06
  … like going to, yeah.
• 24:08
  Interesting.
• 24:08
  When I was in college, they would, they would basically say, you know,
• 24:11
  I was an English lit major, and they would say that there's only one degree
• 24:14
  that's more useless than a English lit degree, and it's the philosophy degree.
• 24:18
  Yeah.
• 24:18
  Um, so what did you… I ended up teaching English in Korea.
• 24:21
  What did you end up doing- Oh … with your philosophy degree?
• 24:22
  So I had my philosophy degree.
• 24:24
  Um, I was an active alcoholic at the time.
• 24:26
  Okay.
• 24:27
  Graduated, and as any good philosophy major does, I became a, uh, messenger
• 24:31
  in Boston, in downtown Boston.
• 24:32
  Oh, like r- doing the bike thing?
• 24:34
  Yep, yep.
• 24:34
  Oh, cool.
• 24:35
  Bike and walk of some of the-
• 24:36
  What's that movie called?
• 24:37
  There's a movie about that with Kevin Bacon.
• 24:38
  Remember?
• 24:38
  Quicksilver.
• 24:39
  Quicksilver.
• 24:39
  Quicksilver.
• 24:40
  Remember that?
• 24:40
  Yeah.
• 24:40
  Was it just like that?
• 24:42
  Um, it, it, it was, it was always a heavy drinking crew.
• 24:46
  Oh.
• 24:46
  And, uh- Are you drinking while you're biking around?
• 24:48
  Um, no.
• 24:49
  We'd usually wait till- Wait till after … after.
• 24:50
  That's probably for the best.
• 24:51
  But there was a little pub, we'd all go afterwards.
• 24:52
  Uh-huh.
• 24:53
  And, you know, you'd s- then, and sooner or later everybody would get injured.
• 24:55
  Luckily I- Right … I switched over to walking messenger.
• 24:58
  Oh, that's smart
• 24:59
  Because then I could go into bookstores and wander around and- Right
• 25:01
  … that was that.
• 25:02
  It looked like a very dangerous job.
• 25:03
  I mean, the, the movie made it look very dangerous.
• 25:05
  So yeah, I was a messenger after, uh, with my philosophy degree.
• 25:08
  And, and the back- I just wanted to study philosophy and read, and I ha-
• 25:12
  I never kinda had that middle cl- I didn't even think about money at all.
• 25:15
  I just figured, oh, I'll go back- Huh … to a fa- I'd, I'd done factory work-
• 25:18
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
• 25:19
  in, in high school and college.
• 25:20
  I did a
• 25:20
  little of that,
• 25:20
  yeah.
• 25:21
  Well, maybe I'll go back to the factory.
• 25:22
  I just wa- I just loved philosophy, I loved literature, yeah.
• 25:25
  But there wasn't even, like, a dream job that you were thinking about when-
• 25:28
  Maybe writing.
• 25:30
  Yeah.
• 25:30
  That was it.
• 25:31
  All right.
• 25:31
  Yeah.
• 25:31
  Never had any kind of… No future, yeah.
• 25:34
  Right.
• 25:34
  Very, very, here I am.
• 25:35
  So when did computers enter your life?
• 25:37
  I was graduating college, it was '88- Mm-hmm … and the library was starting
• 25:41
  to install digital card catalog.
• 25:44
  They were taking out-
• 25:45
  Oh,
• 25:45
  right … the old long index cards … I remember that.
• 25:46
  Yeah, the really
• 25:47
  crappy digital- And I was like, "Oh, that looks interesting."
• 25:49
  Yeah.
• 25:49
  I was just inter- I was like, "Wow." Yeah.
• 25:50
  Now that I'm graduating.
• 25:51
  For sure.
• 25:52
  And, um, my friend had a, uh, an old, these were old, old
• 25:56
  laptops, just, uh, like a-
• 25:58
  Yeah
• 25:58
  … green screen, no, no graphics.
• 26:00
  100
• 26:00
  pounds.
• 26:01
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  Yeah, yeah.
• 26:01
  Big huge thing.
• 26:02
  He said, "Hey, Ted, do you want… You know, I'm upgrading.
• 26:04
  Do you want my laptop?"
• 26:06
  And I was, uh, I got fired from my messenger job for
• 26:10
  trying to union organize.
• 26:13
  Hey, you know- Hey … fight the power, bro.
• 26:14
  Yeah.
• 26:15
  The, the, the unemployment statement was, um, Ted's motivation is incongruent
• 26:19
  with the firm's larger ideals.
• 26:21
  That's true.
• 26:21
  It's true.
• 26:22
  True statement, right?
• 26:23
  Yeah, yeah.
• 26:23
  You can't argue.
• 26:24
  So, uh, I got this computer and I was gonna write, you know, I, I've still
• 26:28
  jour- to this day, I journaled just now.
• 26:30
  I d- I've been journaling my whole life and writing short fiction.
• 26:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:33
  And, and I said, "Oh, good, I can write stories on this computer- Sure … rather
• 26:37
  than writing down or using my type- typewriter." Well, I don't know.
• 26:39
  Typewriter, good Lord.
• 26:40
  Yeah.
• 26:41
  Um, so the computer had a little, um, opening that you could
• 26:46
  put a phone line in, a modem.
• 26:48
  Right.
• 26:48
  It had an old modem.
• 26:49
  Right,
• 26:49
  right.
• 26:50
  And my friend, uh, Dr. Dave from Ohio-
• 26:53
  Mm-hmm
• 26:53
  … uh, said, "Oh, geez, my, my, one of my roommates," and in Boston
• 26:57
  you live with five or six people.
• 26:58
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:59
  It's just kind of the- Expensive, yeah … you know, post-college life.
• 27:01
  And he said, "Oh, geez, my, uh, my roommate, uh, used to be a
• 27:05
  hacker," and this is, like, '92.
• 27:07
  Wow.
• 27:08
  ' 91 maybe?
• 27:09
  Yeah.
• 27:09
  He was an early hacker.
• 27:10
  Yeah, that's a long time
• 27:10
  ago.
• 27:10
  And he goes, "Oh, yeah, bring over the computer." And, and this guy was like,
• 27:14
  "Oh, man, you can connect this to a phone line." And he showed me how to-
• 27:17
  Uh-huh
• 27:17
  … connect the, the internet was not acceptable, a- a- accessible-
• 27:20
  Right
• 27:21
  … except university and some businesses.
• 27:22
  Yeah,
• 27:22
  you had to, like, dial into the specific- Yeah … Freenet thing
• 27:25
  or whatever.
• 27:25
  Or even, yeah, even then it was, this was, like- Yeah … this was bulletin
• 27:28
  boards, which for the listeners, computer enthusiast- Uh-huh … would get a second
• 27:33
  phone line, and they would hook up a computer with some software, and people
• 27:37
  could call into directly, no internet.
• 27:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:39
  You could call into this person's phone number, and there was
• 27:42
  some kind of directory somehow.
• 27:44
  Yeah, it was like BBS kind of a thing.
• 27:46
  Yeah.
• 27:46
  I forgot what they
• 27:46
  call it.
• 27:46
  Exactly, BBS.
• 27:47
  Yeah.
• 27:48
  And you could get a menu.
• 27:49
  It was, then this is all-
• 27:50
  Yeah
• 27:51
  … menu-driven.
• 27:51
  All text.
• 27:52
  Yeah, you- Yeah … could get some kinda files if you wanted,
• 27:55
  or just maybe if it was advanced, you could chat with somebody else.
• 27:58
  Yeah, it was just, a lot of those were just, like, a conversation,
• 28:00
  just like a, a message board kind of a thing was all it was.
• 28:03
  Exactly.
• 28:03
  And then there'd be files that you could l- you know, kinda get from
• 28:06
  the message board and so forth.
• 28:07
  Yeah.
• 28:07
  It was very rudimentary, but it was incredible.
• 28:10
  Oh,
• 28:10
  it- Incredible
• 28:11
  … it blew my mind.
• 28:12
  Yeah, yeah.
• 28:12
  So instead of writing, I really got into this bulletin board thing,
• 28:15
  and then my friend who sold me the computer said, "Hey, Ted, there's
• 28:20
  this new thing called the internet." And we live in Boston, we're lucky
• 28:24
  enough where there's connections.
• 28:25
  Right.
• 28:26
  So, and these modems were like- 2400 or something
• 28:30
  Yeah, like-
• 28:30
  So that's, yeah
• 28:30
  28, eight I think.
• 28:31
  Oh, yeah And 14, 14, 4 is 28.
• 28:32
  That was,
• 28:32
  that was getting good.
• 28:33
  Yeah, yeah That was all right.
• 28:34
  And 56 was amazing.
• 28:35
  Yeah, yeah.
• 28:36
  Yeah.
• 28:36
  Because the, the, the, my, my friend's friend showed me the modem,
• 28:39
  and he had gotten busted for credit card theft, believe it or not.
• 28:43
  Wow.
• 28:43
  'Cause there was no security, and he was a early…
• 28:46
  I don't know if Boston has a lot of-
• 28:47
  Right.
• 28:48
  It's like you're… It's just… For some reason you're always
• 28:50
  end, end up being s- you seem like you've been around, like, criminals-
• 28:53
  That is the case
• 28:54
  … for most of your life.
• 28:54
  Yes.
• 28:55
  Right, right.
• 28:55
  Well, you made w- made, you made good use of it.
• 28:57
  I'm, I'm, I'm-
• 28:58
  Yeah.
• 28:58
  So-
• 28:59
  So keep going.
• 28:59
  I'm sorry.
• 29:00
  So, yeah.
• 29:00
  No, no, no, no.
• 29:01
  So he had showed me, like… You know, he had told me, "You, I used
• 29:04
  to hack," but he really knew comp- Yeah … so he told me the modem.
• 29:06
  Yeah.
• 29:07
  My other buddy says, "Hey, Ted," for I don't even know how much
• 29:09
  it was an h- it was hourly rates.
• 29:11
  Internet was not unlimited.
• 29:13
  I remember.
• 29:13
  This was like- Yeah
• 29:14
  probably one of the first internet connections in Boston- Mm-hmm … just
• 29:17
  kinda two hippies smoking weed would be like, "Yeah, we, let's, let's-
• 29:20
  Right … give people the internet."
• 29:21
  Right.
• 29:22
  And me and my friend Steve started to do it, and back then, which I've, I
• 29:25
  think on, you would go to the bookstore and buy books on early in- Yeah.
• 29:30
  You would actually buy a
• 29:31
  paper
• 29:32
  book- Yeah, for sure … 'cause there was no
• 29:33
  resources.
• 29:33
  How
• 29:33
  to use the internet.
• 29:34
  Yeah.
• 29:35
  Yeah.
• 29:35
  So we- I forgot about that.
• 29:36
  Yeah
• 29:36
  … we bought a book, and we got these internet accounts.
• 29:40
  And we just love, we love the idea.
• 29:43
  You can go to France and get a file from France, so you can-
• 29:46
  Yeah … chat on what's now-
• 29:47
  Yeah
• 29:47
  IRC, Internet Relay Chat, which is- I
• 29:49
  always hated IRC,
• 29:50
  but yeah … maybe Discord.
• 29:51
  You, you know your stuff.
• 29:52
  Yeah,
• 29:52
  Discord.
• 29:52
  Yeah.
• 29:52
  That's
• 29:53
  right.
• 29:53
  Yeah.
• 29:53
  And we just became hooked, just for the passion, just, just as a hobbyist.
• 29:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:57
  We would be up all night figuring something out or-
• 30:00
  Yeah, yeah
• 30:00
  … you know, you… Et cetera.
• 30:02
  I'm not gonna- Yeah, yeah, yeah
• 30:02
  get too geeky, but-
• 30:03
  What… No, feel free
• 30:04
  … we loved it.
• 30:05
  Yeah.
• 30:05
  Right?
• 30:05
  So I'm living in Cambridge, in Inman Square at the time.
• 30:08
  I'm, I'm, I'm a unemployed messenger- … with a philosophy degree.
• 30:11
  I'm like- Right, right … "Where am I gonna go from here?"
• 30:13
  Right.
• 30:14
  And back then you would get the Sunday Boston Globe, which
• 30:17
  was about three inches thick.
• 30:18
  Yeah.
• 30:18
  Yep.
• 30:19
  And you'd pull out the Help Wanted section-
• 30:21
  Mm-hmm
• 30:21
  … and you'd get your red pen.
• 30:23
  Circle.
• 30:23
  I know.
• 30:23
  Is this like-
• 30:24
  God
• 30:24
  … man, I'm old
• 30:25
  … so retro.
• 30:26
  We would circle these things, and I saw this thing that said,
• 30:29
  "Delphi Internet Services."
• 30:31
  Uh-huh.
• 30:31
  Right?
• 30:32
  And it was the f- arguably, you know, these things.
• 30:35
  You know, arguably the first company that offered public internet access.
• 30:38
  This is before AOL did.
• 30:40
  Okay.
• 30:40
  Yeah.
• 30:40
  The AOL was our main competitor.
• 30:42
  Right.
• 30:42
  And it was right down the street on Mass Ave from me.
• 30:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:45
  So I said, "Hey, let me apply. This, this-" Why not?
• 30:47
  Yeah.
• 30:47
  "Wow, I love doing this.
• 30:49
  Let me apply." And I had an interview and they said, "Do you know how to
• 30:52
  transfer a file?" And I said, "Yes, I do.
• 30:55
  I know this and that, and I know…" Lynx was… There was no web browsers- Yeah,
• 30:59
  yeah, yeah … really considered then.
• 31:00
  Yeah.
• 31:01
  But there was a appli- all command line Unix links, L-Y-N-X.
• 31:04
  Yeah.
• 31:05
  And you would get hypertext.
• 31:06
  And that was cool 'cause you could tab and ta- uh, t- tap a
• 31:09
  different color to a URL, right?
• 31:10
  Yeah, I remember.
• 31:11
  I
• 31:11
  remember.
• 31:12
  And they were like, "Oh, you're in. You're hired."
• 31:14
  Yeah.
• 31:14
  So I would suppo- I was a support person.
• 31:15
  It was that easy.
• 31:16
  You just need to transfer a file back then and you're Ex-
• 31:19
  exactly.
• 31:19
  Yeah.
• 31:19
  "Can you trans- Okay, you're in." You're… Yeah.
• 31:20
  The… 'Cause there were no courses on internet tech.
• 31:23
  And this is in- Of course, yeah
• 31:24
  this is, this is Mass Ave between M- I- Right … literally,
• 31:27
  this place was between Harvard and MIT on Mass Ave. Right.
• 31:30
  Right, right.
• 31:31
  So I started that jo- I loved that job.
• 31:33
  'Cause I had done… I was a meat packer.
• 31:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:35
  I was a… I made boxes.
• 31:36
  I had done demo.
• 31:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:37
  I had done a lot of tough jobs in my- Right … my life.
• 31:40
  This was nice.
• 31:41
  You had, like, kind of a little cubicle and- Right.
• 31:42
  You're sitting
• 31:42
  down.
• 31:43
  Yeah, yeah
• 31:44
  … talking to people.
• 31:45
  Uh-huh.
• 31:45
  And we would teach people how to use the internet and connect to modems.
• 31:48
  So you,
• 31:48
  you were like customer support?
• 31:49
  Exactly.
• 31:49
  Okay.
• 31:50
  Yeah.
• 31:51
  And, um, since I, uh, I n- I guess I knew enough, and I was
• 31:55
  quickly promoted to manager.
• 31:56
  Wow.
• 31:57
  And, um, yeah, it was really interesting 'cause we would, uh, we
• 32:01
  would someti- since we're in Cambridge, we would hire kind of drop-out
• 32:05
  or burnt-out Harvard or MIT kids.
• 32:07
  Right.
• 32:08
  And we had to teach them 'cause there was, there was no- They didn't
• 32:10
  know … course in internet back then.
• 32:11
  Right.
• 32:12
  Right, right.
• 32:12
  Especially if we get to internet security.
• 32:14
  Right.
• 32:14
  Nada.
• 32:15
  Right.
• 32:15
  They were in programming.
• 32:16
  Yeah.
• 32:16
  You'd go to college and they would teach you how to program.
• 32:19
  Yeah, people didn't know what the hell it was.
• 32:20
  Yeah.
• 32:20
  I was on the internet probably about the same time- Yeah … '92, '93, '91 maybe,
• 32:24
  'cause I gradu- anyway, it doesn't matter.
• 32:26
  My cousin Joe gave me a extra computer that he had, this Commodore computer
• 32:29
  with a modem, and there was the Cleveland Freenet, which I think is one of the
• 32:33
  longest running Freenets in the world.
• 32:35
  It just closed down finally, unfortunately, but I think it was
• 32:38
  com- Case Western Reserve So we logged into that, and I remember
• 32:43
  going into the chat thing, which was all very confusing to look at.
• 32:46
  It didn't look user-friendly whatsoever, of course, and typing a message to what
• 32:49
  I knew was my cousin Joe's username, and then we typed back, and I was like, pff.
• 32:53
  My mind just- Yeah … you know, I just- Oh … typed in something in the
• 32:56
  screen, and it showed up on my… Yeah.
• 32:58
  Amazing.
• 32:59
  Yeah.
• 32:59
  Amazing.
• 32:59
  Yeah.
• 32:59
  I mean, it was a, it was an exciting t- … I would have worked that job for free.
• 33:02
  Right.
• 33:02
  That's how much I loved doing it back then.
• 33:04
  Yeah.
• 33:04
  I mean, it was just amazing.
• 33:05
  I mean, seeing what's happened with the internet now, I'm not sure how
• 33:08
  excited I would have been back then, but at the time it felt very exciting.
• 33:11
  Uh, exactly.
• 33:12
  Yeah.
• 33:12
  And, and, and one thing I was thinking back to when I was doing customer support
• 33:16
  and, you know, managing a team, um, the beauty of the internet, there was
• 33:20
  Usenet- Yeah … which is the equivalent of Reddit, so it's message forums.
• 33:23
  Yeah.
• 33:23
  And there was, uh, there was no moderator.
• 33:26
  No, they didn't need it.
• 33:26
  There was no mo- Right … you know, your moderation was if your words
• 33:29
  were reasonable, then there you go.
• 33:32
  Right.
• 33:32
  And if they weren't, you'd dismiss it.
• 33:33
  Right.
• 33:34
  But the… And then there was, um, Gopher, Gopher for fi- finding files.
• 33:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:40
  There was links- Vaguely remember
• 33:42
  this,
• 33:42
  yeah … to theoretically the web.
• 33:44
  Yeah.
• 33:44
  This was the early HTML.
• 33:46
  And, uh, that was about… And the IRC to chat.
• 33:49
  That was really the internet.
• 33:50
  Yeah.
• 33:51
  But I came into work one day, and they s- and they said, "Oh my God, the
• 33:54
  internet's exploded." And I said, "What happened?" And this is where, this is,
• 33:57
  like really I'm still processing this.
• 34:00
  It was the first advertisement in the history of the internet.
• 34:04
  So some law firm, an immigration law firm- Yeah, of
• 34:07
  course
• 34:08
  … spammed, spammed, that word was just becoming- Right … in use then.
• 34:12
  Right.
• 34:12
  Spammed Usenet forums.
• 34:14
  So it's like basically- Uh-huh,
• 34:16
  yeah
• 34:16
  … putting an ad. They, they somehow got wind of there's this internet thing- Mm-hmm
• 34:19
  … and we're gonna use… But that was the very first time theoretically- Right
• 34:24
  you could see an ad.
• 34:25
  Huh.
• 34:26
  And it's been all downhill since.
• 34:27
  Yeah, it really has.
• 34:28
  Yeah, yeah.
• 34:30
  Yeah, they really sold us the internet as this way to connect the world, and we'd
• 34:33
  all be more connected and have this global community, and as it turns out, it's
• 34:37
  just made us hate each other even more.
• 34:38
  Wah, wah, wah.
• 34:41
  So you're a manager at this, uh, internet company.
• 34:44
  You're selling internet.
• 34:45
  You're helping people- Yep … with internet.
• 34:46
  And, uh, and then, then what happens?
• 34:48
  Like I said, I loved the job.
• 34:49
  I think, don't quote me, but I think I… So I came up with an idea, 'cause it was
• 34:53
  so frustrating doing customer support.
• 34:55
  Nobody had to use the internet.
• 34:56
  Right.
• 34:57
  So I think I came up, and they advertised it in news- newspapers literally, I
• 35:01
  gave one of the first internet-based courses on how to use the internet.
• 35:05
  Oh, look at that.
• 35:05
  I would do, like, a internet chat- Ah … and teach people how to use the service.
• 35:09
  Yeah, yeah.
• 35:09
  So-
• 35:09
  Wow
• 35:10
  … that's my claim to fame, I guess.
• 35:12
  Wow.
• 35:12
  And, and I had a early enough website that I just put the site up, me and
• 35:16
  my friends started figuring out HTML.
• 35:19
  Right.
• 35:19
  Right, right.
• 35:19
  And you would get, like, 42 million hits from all over the world.
• 35:22
  Sure,
• 35:22
  ' cause it's
• 35:23
  the only website.
• 35:23
  Because there weren't many- Yeah, yeah.
• 35:24
  … it wasn't, it wasn't my content.
• 35:26
  Yeah.
• 35:26
  There wasn't many websites
• 35:27
  then.
• 35:27
  Do you remember the URL?
• 35:29
  Oh, you got me on
• 35:30
  that one.
• 35:30
  No?
• 35:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 35:31
  No.
• 35:31
  Yeah.
• 35:32
  Wow, yeah, it used to be a pain in the ass to make websites.
• 35:34
  So to answer your question, um, so part of the challenge was it was
• 35:38
  $20 for 20 hours, and then- Crazy
• 35:40
  an hour, a dollar, a buck an hour or something like that.
• 35:42
  Right, right, right.
• 35:43
  So all of these kids would sign up with their parents' credit cards.
• 35:46
  They would get addicted to this thing.
• 35:47
  Of course.
• 35:48
  And then their parents would get a bill for, like, 400 bucks.
• 35:51
  Right, right, right.
• 35:52
  And they would, you know, the tick of- Yeah
• 35:53
  you know, and that was it.
• 35:54
  So then they learned how to hack back i- they became hackers.
• 35:57
  That was the first-
• 35:57
  Ah
• 35:58
  … ' 93, yeah, '94, that was the first wave of hackers.
• 36:03
  They learned how to get in without paying.
• 36:04
  So you, they could do a credit card generator, which back then- Oh, yeah, I
• 36:08
  remember … you put your credit card in.
• 36:09
  It wouldn't actually see if it was valid.
• 36:12
  Right.
• 36:12
  It would, there was a- Just
• 36:13
  give you
• 36:13
  a… Yeah … just a checksum.
• 36:14
  And then…
• 36:15
  And they quickly knew.
• 36:16
  Yeah.
• 36:17
  So these kids started hacking the hell out of my service.
• 36:19
  So I'm doing customer support, but then I was like, "Man, let's go." Yeah, we go.
• 36:23
  Yeah.
• 36:24
  Yeah,
• 36:24
  yeah.
• 36:24
  This, this bec- this was fun.
• 36:25
  Right.
• 36:25
  So we, we'd, we'd have, like, a, an old-school map on the wall, and we
• 36:29
  would pinpoint the different hackers and track them down, and that's- Oh,
• 36:32
  there were so many hackers.
• 36:34
  Oh, yeah.
• 36:34
  Right.
• 36:34
  These kids loved to, to, to hack, yeah.
• 36:36
  Right.
• 36:37
  And they were good.
• 36:38
  They were, they're, they were, they were really good.
• 36:39
  They were very creative.
• 36:40
  They would rat each other out, which made it easier on us- … 'cause
• 36:43
  there were always wars.
• 36:45
  And, uh, I remember one time this kid was just, he was setting up 50 accounts
• 36:49
  every day- Wow … because he knew it would kill off so many of them quickly.
• 36:53
  Right.
• 36:54
  So it took some work.
• 36:55
  I finally tracked him down.
• 36:57
  I finally caught him 'cause I found his original account that
• 36:59
  his father had the credit card in.
• 37:01
  Yeah.
• 37:02
  And I said, "I'm calling this kid's dad. That's it." In some
• 37:05
  little town in Pennsylvania.
• 37:06
  Right.
• 37:07
  I call the, I call up the middle and he goes, uh, "Reverend
• 37:11
  Williams here." I go, "Oh, hi.
• 37:14
  Hi, Reverend.
• 37:15
  How you, how you doing?" I said, "Do you have a son and, you know,
• 37:18
  named Johnny or something?" Right.
• 37:19
  "Yes, I do." I go, "Does he have a computer?"
• 37:21
  "I got him that computer to, to do good in school-" "… and to go to college." Wow.
• 37:26
  I go, "Well…" So then I had to explain that there was a telephone wire-
• 37:31
  Right, right … in
• 37:31
  the, in, in- Right, right … in, in he s- and, and he, uh… We
• 37:34
  ended the conversation with, "Well, thank you kindly, sir. I'm gonna
• 37:37
  take him out to the woodshed."
• 37:40
  Wow.
• 37:41
  That was the- Beating him with a slice … punishment hackers got back then.
• 37:43
  Right.
• 37:44
  So you basically taught yourself how to hack?
• 37:46
  Uh, yep, yep.
• 37:48
  There w- Or how to prevent hacking, I guess.
• 37:49
  To prevent.
• 37:49
  Right.
• 37:49
  So first I played defense, but in order, if you play good
• 37:52
  defense, you gotta play offense.
• 37:54
  Gotta try.
• 37:54
  So I learned all of the tricks and, and it was interesting too, um, I was older
• 37:58
  then, so I wasn't as, you know, I, I…
• 38:01
  And I had full access to anything on the internet.
• 38:04
  Right,
• 38:04
  right,
• 38:04
  right.
• 38:04
  And still.
• 38:04
  But it was always intriguing that even back then in Boston,
• 38:08
  you could, um… There was a util- Unix utility called Finger.
• 38:12
  Okay.
• 38:13
  Bad, bad phrasing perhaps.
• 38:15
  But you could, quote-unquote, "finger" anybody on any computer
• 38:18
  in Boston networks- Right
• 38:19
  Harvard, Tufts.
• 38:20
  Right.
• 38:21
  And you could see if they were online by typing in finger space and their username.
• 38:24
  Right.
• 38:25
  I think they've discontinued that term.
• 38:26
  I think they stopped that- Yeah, yeah, yeah … a, a ways back.
• 38:28
  Yeah.
• 38:28
  But yeah, so I, I lear- I was just intrigued by just
• 38:31
  more theoretically really-
• 38:32
  Mm-hmm
• 38:33
  … kinda how did, how did they do it?
• 38:34
  I'd find out their methods.
• 38:35
  Yeah.
• 38:36
  And then they would actually… So AOL was our competitor, and some kids partic- they
• 38:41
  actually wrote a program called AO Hell.
• 38:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:44
  And it was like a graphic interface that you could hack just using buttons.
• 38:48
  This is the first kind of graphic hacking tool- Wow … as opposed to-
• 38:52
  I see
• 38:52
  commands.
• 38:52
  Yeah, yeah,
• 38:53
  yeah.
• 38:53
  And I just, I just was really intrigued by all this stuff.
• 38:57
  S- so, uh, I, I hesitate to ask this question- No, sure … but I am curious.
• 39:02
  Like, like how did they hack back in these early days?
• 39:05
  Yeah.
• 39:05
  Like, how were they hacking into AOL back in those early days?
• 39:09
  Again, a lot of times it was the, um, they didn't validate credit cards, so
• 39:13
  the checksum could get you pretty easily.
• 39:15
  So they
• 39:15
  never did?
• 39:15
  So they never va- I mean, if you had a car- oh,
• 39:17
  wow.
• 39:17
  You could just generate a different credit card every time it, it did the checksum.
• 39:21
  Right.
• 39:21
  And then you would just, you'd have to make up an address that somebody didn't
• 39:24
  have before, 'cause well, there was, there were very primitive controls.
• 39:27
  Right,
• 39:28
  right,
• 39:28
  right.
• 39:28
  This address is gonna get flagged 'cause some- there was
• 39:31
  already been a bogus account.
• 39:32
  Yeah.
• 39:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:32
  So it would have very primitive, like, kind of blacklist or something.
• 39:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:35
  And then once they were in there, as long as they behaved,
• 39:39
  which they usually didn't.
• 39:40
  Right.
• 39:40
  And, but the other thing is we would do some tracking as far
• 39:43
  as cr- um, phone numbers, 'cause kids would have to call- Sure
• 39:46
  from the same phone number.
• 39:47
  Sure.
• 39:47
  So that was kinda the equivalent of the IP address back then.
• 39:49
  Right, right, right.
• 39:50
  Um, but yeah.
• 39:51
  But,
• 39:51
  but, but that was the main way.
• 39:52
  They would just do fake credit cards?
• 39:54
  Yeah, yeah.
• 39:54
  I mean, a- as a parallel side, there was a whole other with
• 39:58
  Kevin Mitnick is a hacker.
• 40:00
  Uh, he, he died a couple years ago, but he was what's called a phone phreaker.
• 40:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:04
  So his angle wasn't necessarily the internet.
• 40:07
  He wanted to get into telecoms.
• 40:09
  Okay.
• 40:10
  There's a whole history of phone phreaking.
• 40:12
  There was, um, there was a whistle.
• 40:13
  You could go to a payphone, and you could-
• 40:16
  Ah, right, and make the
• 40:17
  sound of a modem … play the whistle, the sound of a modem- Yeah, yeah,
• 40:19
  yeah … and get a free phone call.
• 40:20
  There were different phone numbers that you could call back.
• 40:23
  And even in my community, there were all these numbers that you could f- 'cause
• 40:26
  long distance, amazingly, was pricey.
• 40:28
  Yeah, it was.
• 40:29
  It
• 40:29
  was really pricey.
• 40:30
  It's crazy.
• 40:30
  It's crazy.
• 40:30
  So if you could beat a f- a long distance phone code, you know, this… So there
• 40:33
  were all this kind of- Right, right
• 40:34
  ad hoc-
• 40:35
  Right
• 40:35
  … kind of hacking.
• 40:37
  Um, I think I initially was intrigued by hacking as I grew up, and everybody
• 40:40
  was a car thief in my neighborhood.
• 40:42
  Right.
• 40:42
  I mean, I'm, it all kinda connects together.
• 40:44
  It's, it's, it's a, they- Yeah … how do you hack?
• 40:46
  What's, how do you hack a car?
• 40:47
  Yeah.
• 40:47
  How do you hack, you know, getting welfare?
• 40:50
  How do you hack?
• 40:51
  Right.
• 40:51
  So I was always intrigued by-
• 40:53
  Right
• 40:53
  … how to beat the system or something.
• 40:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:55
  You know, or shoplifting, or okay, you take this little tab off, and it-
• 40:59
  Yeah,
• 40:59
  yeah, yeah, yeah … the thing won't go,
• 41:00
  stuff like that.
• 41:00
  When did you go full-time as the ha- as the anti-hacking hacker?
• 41:04
  Or
• 41:04
  whatever you wanna call it.
• 41:04
  So, um, after that job, um, that, that service lost to AOL.
• 41:10
  And then at that point, since I had a background in Unix and, um, hacking-
• 41:16
  Mm-hmm … and et cetera, I, um, you know, I had a recruiter, and they
• 41:20
  said, "Hey, there's this, uh, there's this company on Route 128," which
• 41:24
  was technology highway at the time.
• 41:26
  It was all these, you know, Boston had all these techno birds.
• 41:28
  Of course.
• 41:30
  And
• 41:31
  this is dot com, dot com rumblings here.
• 41:31
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:31
  And AOL and, um- Yeah … you know, Yahoo, et cetera.
• 41:35
  M-
• 41:35
  mid-'90s we're talking about?
• 41:36
  Yeah.
• 41:36
  Yeah, mid-'90s.
• 41:38
  And, um, they said, "Why don't you apply to this firewall company?" And these
• 41:41
  were the first generation firewalls.
• 41:44
  Wow.
• 41:44
  ' Cause you ne- suddenly people said- Yeah
• 41:46
  we need firewalls.
• 41:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:47
  Now, you could build your own and whatever, but-
• 41:49
  Sure
• 41:49
  … companies finally said, "We need…" The internet was, you
• 41:52
  know, it was going crazy and-
• 41:53
  Mm-hmm
• 41:54
  … there were firewall companies.
• 41:55
  So I applied and I said, "Yeah, I know Unix, and yeah, I do…" And
• 41:59
  they were just drooling over me.
• 42:00
  They're like, "Yeah, when can you start?"
• 42:01
  Wow.
• 42:01
  ' Cause back then it was like- Yeah, nobody knew
• 42:03
  … nobody
• 42:04
  had this.
• 42:04
  Nobody knew.
• 42:04
  Nobody knew this background.
• 42:04
  Yeah.
• 42:05
  So, uh, I trans- trans… It was a, it was a small startup.
• 42:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:09
  And you could… And I loved these atmospheres too be- 'cause you
• 42:12
  could wear whatever you wanted.
• 42:13
  Right.
• 42:14
  And, uh, so I got a job at a, a firewall company And, uh, loved doing it.
• 42:20
  Again, customer support.
• 42:21
  Okay.
• 42:22
  Teaching folks how to configure firewalls- Right,
• 42:24
  right, right
• 42:25
  … and et cetera.
• 42:26
  And, you know, our customers still would get hacked because they would
• 42:29
  misconfigure- Of course … the firewall.
• 42:30
  Of course.
• 42:30
  So I still had… And then, and what we would do, too, that's w- when I
• 42:34
  got kind of pen tested and put on my hacker hat, you would have to
• 42:37
  do a penetration test against the firewall to make sure- Ah, I see
• 42:40
  it was a pretty damn good firewall.
• 42:41
  I see.
• 42:41
  You're selling this thing- Yeah, yeah, yeah … to, you know, really
• 42:43
  big companies- Yeah, yeah … right?
• 42:45
  But it was still very homegrown.
• 42:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:47
  40, 40 people chilling out- Yeah … you know, throwing balls
• 42:50
  at each other and- Yeah, yeah, yeah … goofing around, and- Yeah, yeah.
• 42:53
  I got some stock options, and I, I think- Oh, nice
• 42:56
  the ex-wife probably got those, but-
• 42:57
  Ah,
• 42:57
  that's too bad … I forget how that played out.
• 42:58
  Yeah.
• 42:58
  But anyway, but I loved doing it.
• 43:00
  Yeah.
• 43:00
  It was a great job.
• 43:00
  Yeah, yeah.
• 43:01
  So I was just happy.
• 43:02
  I was like, "Wow, I'm…" You know, I came from this poor- Right … background.
• 43:05
  I found my place.
• 43:06
  I've got a car.
• 43:07
  Yeah.
• 43:07
  They treat me w- I can wear whatever I want.
• 43:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:09
  I can be myself.
• 43:10
  It's a little chill company.
• 43:12
  Yeah.
• 43:12
  They loved me there.
• 43:14
  Money's decent, I imagine.
• 43:15
  The money was decent.
• 43:16
  Yeah.
• 43:16
  The stock options, right?
• 43:17
  Yeah,
• 43:17
  yeah.
• 43:18
  And what was inter- I was just happy there.
• 43:20
  I d- again, I never had no future- Right … trajectory to do anything.
• 43:23
  I was like, "Oh, this is cool." And I had, I had my, my son was born,
• 43:27
  and I said, "Things are good."
• 43:28
  Yeah.
• 43:28
  Life is good, right?
• 43:30
  Um, but then I had two colleagues, Dileep and Hermeng.
• 43:34
  Mm. And they were really hardworking guys from India, and they were actually,
• 43:38
  they were like, "Ted, Ted, um, we're getting our Microsoft certifications."
• 43:43
  And the funny thing is, is the, the building was this little building
• 43:46
  on Route 128, and the Microsoft certification center- Right next door
• 43:49
  was across the parking lot- Right, right … literally.
• 43:51
  Right.
• 43:52
  So it became… It was just more like something to do, really.
• 43:55
  I was like- Sure … "Oh, I guess I'll do that, too," and he go-
• 43:56
  Yeah … "Oh, you c- you can make money and get a better job." And I- Yeah,
• 43:59
  yeah.
• 43:59
  " Oh, okay.
• 44:00
  Okay, Dileep.
• 44:01
  I guess I'll do that." 'Cause I had no… I had never had a computer course.
• 44:05
  Sure.
• 44:05
  I used to teach.
• 44:06
  I would, you know, I would teach people.
• 44:07
  Right.
• 44:07
  Um, and I was the instructor for the firewall company to teach the-
• 44:10
  Right, right
• 44:11
  … young folks.
• 44:12
  So we would go across the… W- at lunchtime, you'd go across the parking
• 44:16
  lot, and you'd take your Microsoft certification, and it was, it was
• 44:19
  the walk of shame if you failed.
• 44:21
  But- It was just like wor- like, like Windows and this kind of thing?
• 44:23
  Yeah, yeah.
• 44:23
  Yeah, yeah.
• 44:23
  Like Windows Server, Windows- Right.
• 44:25
  So I became a Microsoft certified engineer.
• 44:27
  So- I-
• 44:28
  I mean, early on, too.
• 44:29
  Yeah
• 44:29
  … and I figured this, this sounds good.
• 44:31
  Can't hurt.
• 44:31
  I don't know Dileep.
• 44:32
  Yeah.
• 44:32
  And then Dileep said, "Ted, Ted, you can get a better job."
• 44:35
  You know, he goes, "We're stuck here with H1s or something, but you can
• 44:38
  go." Like, they were really… So the, the, the interesting thing about,
• 44:42
  you know, immigration, th- these, these folks really were responsible.
• 44:45
  I still see them on LinkedIn.
• 44:46
  They were responsible for getting my career, 'cause I
• 44:48
  was- Wow … just kinda like.
• 44:49
  Wow.
• 44:50
  They were like, "No, Ted. Now, you know, go, go get a better job."
• 44:53
  Okay.
• 44:54
  I said, "Oh, okay, okay." Yeah.
• 44:55
  So I updated a resume, and I don't even know what you did back then.
• 44:58
  Monster.com, I think.
• 44:59
  Sure.
• 45:00
  Monster.
• 45:00
  Yeah, that was the
• 45:01
  one.
• 45:01
  Yeah.
• 45:01
  The monster reared its head.
• 45:02
  Yeah.
• 45:03
  And by that point, financial services had realized the Internet's coming around.
• 45:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:09
  We have a lot of money.
• 45:10
  We need to protect our money.
• 45:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:12
  So, um, I got a job at, um- A financial service firm in downtown Boston
• 45:18
  Mm-hmm
• 45:18
  And back then there was no, uh, you're just like, "Oh, you
• 45:21
  are, you know that?" Right.
• 45:22
  "Come on in."
• 45:22
  Right.
• 45:23
  That's it, you know?
• 45:24
  Right, right.
• 45:25
  And so then I had to get a suits.
• 45:26
  They, there was still- Oh … suits days … fuck, yeah So I was kind of bummed out.
• 45:29
  Man, that sucks.
• 45:30
  But I had a son, and I figured, oh, I'm making more money.
• 45:32
  Right
• 45:33
  And I had more technical know-how than anybody in the IT… These IT departments
• 45:39
  were these huge armies of- Yeah … people who really didn't know much
• 45:42
  Have an idea what they were doing, yeah.
• 45:43
  Yeah.
• 45:43
  Yeah.
• 45:43
  So I knew what I was doing, so they were, you know, it was like, wow.
• 45:46
  So I transitioned, I did information security.
• 45:50
  Uh-huh
• 45:50
  Uh, it's information security, yeah, it's- And you're setting
• 45:52
  up firewalls and stuff- Yeah … for these companies, yeah Yeah.
• 45:53
  Yeah.
• 45:54
  And, um, just defending against the hackers.
• 45:57
  And- And
• 45:58
  back then, were there a lot of people trying to hack into this bank?
• 46:01
  So, you know, here's the thing, like, with, with, with investment
• 46:04
  firms it's a little tricky.
• 46:06
  So the, most of these were investment firms or banks.
• 46:08
  Right,
• 46:09
  right.
• 46:09
  It's really hard to steal money from these, uh, big money.
• 46:12
  It's really hard to steal big money.
• 46:14
  Right
• 46:15
  You know, to get, like, a huge transfer.
• 46:17
  Right
• 46:17
  But they would nibble, you know?
• 46:18
  They could maybe grab something or, you know, and, and these com- 'Cause
• 46:22
  the big tr- big transfers all get flagged, I imagine.
• 46:24
  Ex- Right, right … most of them.
• 46:25
  Yeah.
• 46:25
  Wire transfers sometimes you could get beat.
• 46:27
  They'd
• 46:27
  be- But if you were to set up a system where you were getting
• 46:29
  little tiny pieces of money every, like, hour, that would maybe-
• 46:33
  So that's called salami slicing.
• 46:35
  Oh.
• 46:35
  There's actually a name for that.
• 46:36
  Wow, that's quite another- Yep … unfortunate name
• 46:37
  … where somebody would just- Yeah … round up the penny.
• 46:40
  Oh, right.
• 46:40
  That they stole There was a movie where they did that.
• 46:41
  Yeah.
• 46:41
  Yeah, yeah,
• 46:42
  yeah.
• 46:42
  The irony of the… You know, yeah, this company actually, um, some of
• 46:46
  the senior management was indicted-
• 46:49
  and because they were kind of, they were a lot more shadier than the, the hackers.
• 46:53
  Right, right . And, and the hackers had other… Back then
• 46:55
  it was still hacking for fun-
• 46:57
  Yeah, yeah, yeah … and
• 46:58
  joy.
• 46:59
  But, I mean, there were probably people that were doing bad
• 47:01
  hacking all, I mean, there, yeah,
• 47:02
  yeah Yeah, we would see, like, you know, you would go into a firewall log and you'd
• 47:05
  see a bunch of stuff from- Random people
• 47:08
  you know, Russia, and you'd raise a flag, and you'd have a- Mm,
• 47:10
  right … Ukraine was really, really good hackers, and Eastern Europe.
• 47:12
  Oh, really?
• 47:12
  Oh, wow.
• 47:12
  They were the best.
• 47:13
  Wow.
• 47:14
  Um- I
• 47:14
  wonder why that is?
• 47:15
  Uh, yeah
• 47:17
  Yeah, I mean, chess champions too, so it's gotta be some connection there.
• 47:20
  Yeah,
• 47:20
  there's, there's-
• 47:20
  Yeah, yeah
• 47:20
  really, they were just really-
• 47:21
  Yeah
• 47:22
  … good at it.
• 47:22
  Yeah.
• 47:22
  And sometimes, like I said, for fun, not… N- now it's
• 47:24
  more, it's all monetized now.
• 47:26
  Why would you do this for fun?
• 47:28
  Yeah,
• 47:28
  yeah.
• 47:28
  There's no more fun in the world.
• 47:30
  Well,
• 47:30
  yeah.
• 47:31
  Yeah, anyway.
• 47:31
  I mean, I- Well, they were like… It
• 47:32
  can be
• 47:32
  now.
• 47:32
  Out- outside of the community.
• 47:33
  Yeah, yeah.
• 47:34
  Um, so yeah, I, I, I started at that company and I put
• 47:38
  on the suit and everything.
• 47:39
  Yeah.
• 47:39
  And then, you know, just not gonna name any names, but, um, you know,
• 47:44
  I started, I would say, "Oh, you…" Some other firm would want me.
• 47:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:47
  And they said, "We'll give you this much." Right.
• 47:48
  And, and these, these Boston firms have a lot.
• 47:51
  I mean-
• 47:51
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 47:52
  I mean, Wall Street does the trading, but I always say Boston is the
• 47:55
  one that decides the investment.
• 47:57
  Right,
• 47:58
  right.
• 47:58
  If you think Fidelity, State Street, et cetera- Those are all… Yeah … tho-
• 48:00
  those are the folks that figure out- Yeah, that's true … what trades to make- Yeah
• 48:04
  … and then they send it to Wall Street.
• 48:05
  Yeah.
• 48:06
  So at that point I was a, you know, I was… I headed up all these information
• 48:10
  security departments of very tri- I mean, billions to trillions of dollars.
• 48:14
  Right.
• 48:15
  And-
• 48:15
  Right
• 48:16
  … they trusted me somehow- Right … I guess so.
• 48:17
  Did anything terrible ever, or any, ever get through?
• 48:20
  Um-
• 48:21
  On your watch?
• 48:22
  I ke- I kept a pretty tight ship.
• 48:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:23
  And like I said, it was very convoluted.
• 48:25
  You'd have to… I mean, trading is interesting, right?
• 48:29
  Because you'd say, well, if you can get into the trading desk-
• 48:32
  Mm-hmm … you can figure out what a company is gonna trade- Sure … and
• 48:35
  you can make money off of that trade.
• 48:36
  Of
• 48:36
  course.
• 48:37
  So if like… And I never worked for Fidelity, so I'll
• 48:39
  use the Fidel- Fidelity example.
• 48:40
  Fair
• 48:40
  enough.
• 48:41
  You know, if Fidelity's gonna move, you know, 7 billion of IBM tomorrow,
• 48:46
  and you know about that- Right, you can make a ton … you can place bets.
• 48:48
  Yeah.
• 48:49
  And you can, you know it's gonna go up.
• 48:50
  For sure.
• 48:51
  So stuff like that.
• 48:52
  So there were, you know, there was always kind of, uh- theoretical stuff.
• 48:57
  But it's- Right
• 48:57
  it's, it's very hard to do even if you got through a, a, a firewall or something.
• 49:01
  Um- I mean, the, the… most of my job was just, uh, desktop viruses.
• 49:05
  I mean- Oh, wow.
• 49:06
  Yeah … it wasn't very sexy, but, like, okay, a virus which… or
• 49:09
  a, there was a… What was it?
• 49:10
  Oh, this was horrible.
• 49:11
  SQL Slammer.
• 49:13
  So this was a, a hacker wrote a hack about, um, a database, SQL database.
• 49:18
  I know what's SQL,
• 49:18
  yeah.
• 49:19
  And it was so damn good, it- the unintended benefit is it took down
• 49:23
  half the internet because it scanned.
• 49:25
  Its scanning capability, not the hacking- Ah, I
• 49:29
  see … it was mis- a misconfiguration.
• 49:29
  Right.
• 49:29
  Right, right.
• 49:30
  So things like that, that would, you know, keep me up at night.
• 49:32
  And when we did have incidents, I was the p- you know, the…
• 49:35
  I'd get the call at- Right … 3:00 AM.
• 49:36
  They're like, "Ted-
• 49:37
  Right
• 49:37
  … fix this stuff," you know.
• 49:38
  So… And the other thing we would do is we would hi- I would
• 49:41
  hire penetration testing firms- Another- … to hack into our banks.
• 49:45
  Another unfortunate term … those are the terms I was-
• 49:46
  There's a lot of interesting terms they use.
• 49:48
  Finger, I think- Pe- penetration … salami slicing, penetration.
• 49:50
  Yeah,
• 49:50
  interesting.
• 49:51
  The, the, the, the Boston Catholics would… I would have these
• 49:53
  big board meetings to explain- Oh … where they're, "Can we change
• 49:55
  the name on those things?" Yeah,
• 49:56
  yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:57
  Yeah, they,
• 49:57
  they're very, very Catholic in Boston.
• 49:58
  Yeah.
• 49:58
  Yeah.
• 49:59
  I mean, I'm not arguing with that, quite honestly.
• 50:01
  Yeah.
• 50:01
  Yeah.
• 50:01
  But, um, so yeah, so what… Part of my role was to, um, hire, um,
• 50:07
  penetration teams to hack into our banks or investment firms or whatever-
• 50:11
  Uh-huh
• 50:12
  … find the holes- Right … so we could patch them before the
• 50:14
  hackers could leverage them.
• 50:15
  Right.
• 50:16
  Right.
• 50:16
  And, uh, that was always interesting because there was a clash of
• 50:21
  old-school hackers with, you know, stuffy- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
• 50:25
  suit-and-tie Boston Brahmin-
• 50:26
  Yeah,
• 50:27
  yeah, yeah, yeah … business
• 50:28
  people.
• 50:28
  Yeah.
• 50:28
  I always did a twofold approach.
• 50:30
  Uh, social engineering- hacking, and then the computer engineering
• 50:35
  And what's the social engineering?
• 50:36
  So the social engineering really involves, um, how can you hack without a computer?
• 50:41
  Mm.
• 50:42
  So the, I, the perfect example was, uh, at one point we hired this guy called Mr.
• 50:46
  Mojo.
• 50:47
  If he's out there, hello Mr. Mojo.
• 50:49
  Really cool guy.
• 50:50
  So this was like this dude from Texas with kind of a strag- straggly…
• 50:55
  The ponytails were big back then.
• 50:55
  How'd you find this guy?
• 50:56
  I had connections and, you know- All right.
• 50:58
  Fair enough … we would network.
• 50:59
  Fair enough.
• 50:59
  And I knew who… And, and the other thing is there were enough
• 51:02
  forums out there where you could find who was good and who wasn't.
• 51:04
  Sure.
• 51:04
  'Cause there was a lot of bullshitters-
• 51:06
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
• 51:06
  … who loved to… They couldn't do jack shit.
• 51:08
  Yeah, yeah.
• 51:08
  So basically we hired Mr. Mojo to do, uh, physical hacking.
• 51:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:13
  Social engineering hacking.
• 51:14
  Right.
• 51:15
  And, uh, I was sitting in my office in a building in downtown Boston, and
• 51:19
  he was supposed to appear at 3:00.
• 51:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:22
  And I'm doing whatever I'm doing, and I look up and I see kind of this tall guy.
• 51:26
  He's got the ponytail back so he looks a little-
• 51:28
  Right
• 51:28
  … appearance.
• 51:29
  Right.
• 51:29
  Right.
• 51:29
  And, uh, this, this, this raincoat he must have got out of Goodwill- … 'cause he
• 51:33
  had no, he never wore a tie or anything.
• 51:36
  Sure, sure.
• 51:36
  And he was like, "Dude, Mr.
• 51:38
  Mojo here.
• 51:38
  Yo." And I was like, "Um…" 'Cause usually the protocol is they call,
• 51:42
  you know, "Ted, somebody's here to see you." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:45
  "Okay, I'll come down and…" Yeah, yeah.
• 51:46
  You had to come down and get them.
• 51:47
  Yeah.
• 51:47
  And, you know, these were- He
• 51:48
  just got right in.
• 51:49
  Just…
• 51:49
  Yeah.
• 51:49
  Yeah.
• 51:49
  And I go, "How'd you get in?" He was like, he was like, "Smoking, dude."
• 51:53
  I go, "Oh, h- hold on here.
• 51:54
  What do you mean smoking?" He goes, "Well, wherever building I go into, the
• 51:59
  smokers always… If you hang out with the smokers- Mm … the visitors who visit
• 52:04
  the building will have a visitor sticker."
• 52:05
  Yeah, yeah.
• 52:06
  " And after they smoke their cigarette after the meeting, they throw
• 52:09
  their visitor pass in the trash."
• 52:10
  Oh,
• 52:10
  right, right, right.
• 52:11
  So he slapped it on his raincoat- Right … and just walked
• 52:14
  in like he owned the place.
• 52:15
  Like, "Hey."
• 52:16
  And what did he steal?
• 52:17
  Did he steal, like, s- important documents or something?
• 52:19
  Well, so what we would do is we would call it trophy hunting.
• 52:22
  All right.
• 52:22
  So we would give them some trophies to get.
• 52:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 52:25
  And the two trophies were the HR systems, and HR at the time was
• 52:31
  adamant about not going computer 'cause they didn't trust it.
• 52:34
  Oh, right.
• 52:34
  May- maybe for some good reason.
• 52:35
  Probably.
• 52:35
  And of course the trading desk 'cause-
• 52:38
  Right
• 52:38
  … that's where the money is.
• 52:39
  Sure.
• 52:39
  Right?
• 52:40
  So I said, "Dude, you gotta, you… I, I want you to, um- hack, try to
• 52:46
  hack the, get into HR, get a folder-
• 52:49
  Mm-hmm
• 52:49
  I think, uh, you'd probably… And get a trophy you'd give one
• 52:51
  of the big- Sure … whigs' names.
• 52:52
  Sure,
• 52:52
  sure, sure.
• 52:53
  And get into the trading desk and, I don't know, take a picture of the trading desk.
• 52:58
  Yeah.
• 52:59
  It's a trophy.
• 53:00
  Yeah.
• 53:01
  Trophy, right?
• 53:02
  He goes, "All right, dude." He goes, he goes, "Uh, can I come back
• 53:03
  later?" He's like, "I'm trying to quit smoking and I need a cigarette."
• 53:06
  "All right. Whatever you want, Mr. Mojo." Right.
• 53:08
  Right?
• 53:08
  So before he left, what later I found out, is he went into the stairways
• 53:13
  and he put masking tape on o- all of the locking doors, you know, how the-
• 53:16
  Uh-huh … the little lock would come up.
• 53:18
  Uh-huh.
• 53:18
  On the floors he needed to do.
• 53:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:20
  And then he went out and had a cigarette, you know, had a cigarette or whatever.
• 53:23
  He ca- snuck back in later of course, 'cause it- Right … wasn't
• 53:25
  a big deal for him to do that.
• 53:27
  And for the HR basically, he, uh, the cleaning people will
• 53:30
  always let anybody anywhere.
• 53:31
  Of
• 53:31
  course, yeah.
• 53:32
  So I think he got… The door, the door was already open,
• 53:35
  said hi to the cleaning person.
• 53:36
  Right.
• 53:37
  And we were, one of the security measures I implemented was shredding.
• 53:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:41
  You're gonna shred these documents.
• 53:42
  Wow.
• 53:42
  Early on, yeah.
• 53:42
  So we had these, these big, you know, garbage cans with shredding.
• 53:45
  Yep.
• 53:46
  So he took the, uh, the an- the, the security measure
• 53:49
  and turned it anti-security.
• 53:51
  He pushed the big shredding bin against the wall and, you know, businesses
• 53:55
  have those drop-down square- Yeah
• 53:57
  ceilings.
• 53:57
  Yeah,
• 53:57
  horrible ceilings.
• 53:58
  Yeah.
• 53:58
  So he pushed it against the HR room, bumped himself through the ceiling into
• 54:02
  the room- … and grabbed the trophy.
• 54:05
  The, the HR documents.
• 54:06
  So that was pretty easy.
• 54:07
  That's pretty awesome.
• 54:08
  And then, um, for the trading desk, either the… Sometimes just, it was so easy.
• 54:12
  Sometimes the cleaning person would let them in.
• 54:14
  Right.
• 54:15
  Right.
• 54:15
  They didn't know.
• 54:16
  Or he would, um, there were a couple of ways to break into
• 54:19
  these, uh, doors at the time.
• 54:21
  Um, one time you could take a, you'd get a coat hanger from the coat room-
• 54:25
  Mm-hmm
• 54:26
  … and just grab- Always there … a piece of paper out of a Xerox machine-
• 54:29
  Yeah
• 54:29
  … and stick it on and wave it over the, you know, stick it through the glass
• 54:32
  doors and wave it over the sensor- Ah
• 54:35
  and the doors would open, 'cause it was a- Always a coat hanger … motion detector.
• 54:37
  Yeah,
• 54:37
  yeah, yeah.
• 54:38
  Mr. Mojo was very popular.
• 54:40
  Hm.
• 54:40
  And, um, then- How much
• 54:41
  does a person like this get paid for that kind of a job, do
• 54:43
  you know?
• 54:43
  They do okay.
• 54:44
  Yeah?
• 54:44
  However, Mr. Mojo might not have known his true worth, 'cause
• 54:48
  he's just doing it for fun.
• 54:49
  Right.
• 54:49
  Right, right.
• 54:49
  This is the generation-
• 54:51
  Yeah.
• 54:51
  I wonder how Mr. Mojo got started in that.
• 54:52
  That's interesting.
• 54:52
  So yeah, we sent him to Dublin.
• 54:54
  We said, "All right. You can hack Dublin." He was psyched.
• 54:56
  He's like, "Dude, I never been to- All the way to Ireland … never
• 55:00
  been out of Texas." Wow.
• 55:00
  We sent him to Dublin, and Dublin had an interesting system.
• 55:03
  To get through the doors, you needed, um, it was a heat activation.
• 55:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 55:07
  It wasn't motion, 'cause they wanted to get a human b- Oh … a live human being.
• 55:10
  Right,
• 55:10
  wild.
• 55:11
  So again, it's always a cat and mouse game.
• 55:13
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:13
  Okay, you can take the coat hanger.
• 55:14
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:16
  So he got a… He saw the cleaning per- these cleaning people, you know,
• 55:19
  they're- Always the cleaning people
• 55:20
  they're, they're, they're very important.
• 55:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 55:21
  He grabbed the plastic bag and he s- he slid it through the glass doors,
• 55:25
  and he blew it up and the, the heat from his breath- His breath … was
• 55:28
  enough to open the- … the door.
• 55:30
  So then we sent him to Milan.
• 55:33
  And we said, "How'd you do there?" And I got a early digital picture of him
• 55:36
  in the lunch room with a cappuccino and, like, a top secret trading manual.
• 55:41
  And I said, "How'd that go?" He goes, "Well, I just said I was from
• 55:43
  the US office, and they let me in.
• 55:44
  They showed me- … they gave me a seat.
• 55:46
  They were, they called IT to set me up, and then they showed me
• 55:49
  a cappuccino." It's, it's Italy, so you gotta have a cappuccino.
• 55:52
  Yeah,
• 55:52
  yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:53
  So they showed him the lunch room.
• 55:54
  Did you ever go to, like, any hacker conventions back in the day?
• 55:57
  Uh, yeah, yeah.
• 55:58
  So n- the, geez, early.
• 56:00
  '99 DEF CON was the hacker convention.
• 56:03
  That's what
• 56:03
  it's called?
• 56:03
  Yeah.
• 56:03
  DEF CON.
• 56:04
  No, I went in '99.
• 56:06
  It started in the '90s probably.
• 56:07
  Yeah, sure.
• 56:08
  And it was still the Wild West back then.
• 56:09
  Now it's very corporate.
• 56:10
  Right.
• 56:10
  Even Vegas, though, back then was kind of the Wild West.
• 56:12
  Yeah.
• 56:12
  So, um, yeah, I went in '99.
• 56:15
  The company paid for my trip.
• 56:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 56:17
  And it was, uh, the, the… I, I guess at the big management meeting they
• 56:20
  were joking that this was the, this was the least expensive conference they
• 56:24
  ever encountered, 'cause it was, like, $25 for, like, a cool hacker badge.
• 56:29
  How many people were there?
• 56:30
  Thousands already, even by- Wow … '99 was st- it was n- '99, so this is
• 56:34
  kind of just before the dotcom.
• 56:36
  Yeah.
• 56:36
  And the, and hacking was huge then, you know, everybody was huge.
• 56:39
  Mm. And it was really still kind of the Wild West ethos where the
• 56:43
  kids would get drunk and throw the furniture into the pool.
• 56:46
  And they'd go to the shooting range and shoot guns and everything.
• 56:50
  And, uh, this was early stages.
• 56:52
  So right now these conventions have become n- you know, they're corporate now.
• 56:57
  Right.
• 56:57
  And also the, sadly they're a pipeline for the NSA to get early talent.
• 57:02
  Oh, wow.
• 57:03
  Yeah.
• 57:03
  Because back in the day-
• 57:05
  That's fucked up
• 57:05
  yep, back in the day, the FBI would come.
• 57:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 57:09
  And they would be these pudgy, middle-aged, white, balding guys-
• 57:13
  Yeah, with beige suits or something … with a, with the fanny pack- Yeah,
• 57:14
  yeah
• 57:15
  … and the khakis and the boat shoes.
• 57:16
  Right.
• 57:17
  And, uh, at the time they would have a contest, spot, spot a fed.
• 57:21
  Spot a fed.
• 57:23
  And it'd be like, you'd be the, you know, they'd have, like, a
• 57:25
  conv- you know, would have…
• 57:26
  It was, you know, seminars.
• 57:27
  And s- like, s- this hippie dude would be like, "Dude, that's a fed. That's…"
• 57:30
  And this guy could not not be a fed,
• 57:32
  right?
• 57:33
  Right, right, right, right.
• 57:33
  And then they… But it was a very kind of, it was a very fun thing.
• 57:36
  Like, they'd say- And friendly … "Come on up, come on up."
• 57:38
  Right.
• 57:38
  And they'd be like, "Okay, are you a fed?"
• 57:40
  And the guy would just show his badge and like And they'd both get T-shirts and hug-
• 57:44
  Right … and it was a different vibe.
• 57:45
  It's a different time, yeah.
• 57:46
  Yeah.
• 57:47
  So now the, uh, yeah, now the NSA find, that's, that's where they find- Find
• 57:52
  talent.
• 57:53
  Yay … the,
• 57:53
  the talent.
• 57:54
  But the first, the opening ceremony was about 3,000 people, and as my son
• 57:59
  always says, like, when we go to Micro Center in K, like, the hackers in com-
• 58:03
  they're the smelliest people on earth.
• 58:05
  True.
• 58:05
  And these were the smelly people of the smelly people.
• 58:07
  Yeah, I can only imagine.
• 58:08
  And, um- Las Vegas in August
• 58:12
  Oh, right.
• 58:13
  Unclosed- Right?
• 58:13
  Yeah.
• 58:14
  Yeah.
• 58:14
  And suddenly they start the convention and you hear, like, all these, like
• 58:19
  … Right.
• 58:20
  And we say, and everybody's just looking at each other, and within, like,
• 58:23
  three minutes the temperature started inching up by a degree every minute.
• 58:26
  Oh, they took out the AC.
• 58:27
  They took out the AC.
• 58:28
  Yeah.
• 58:28
  Some had … They, and you see people playing with it.
• 58:30
  Right.
• 58:30
  So, like, "Oh, this is gonna be un-" People were about to … I was going,
• 58:33
  "I'm out of here then." Right, right.
• 58:35
  I'm like, "This is, this is deadly." Yeah.
• 58:35
  "And they smell. Everybody smells." Oh, God almighty.
• 58:37
  So suddenly the, the MC comes on, "All right.
• 58:40
  Hey, kudos.
• 58:41
  I tip my hat to you.
• 58:42
  We salute you.
• 58:43
  Can you please turn it on?" Yeah, yeah.
• 58:44
  You, you got the first hack of the conference, right?
• 58:46
  Yeah, you did.
• 58:47
  'Cause they'd, they'd always be hacked.
• 58:48
  Every … That was the other game- Right … to hack the hotel- Hack
• 58:51
  the hotel … the CRM, and hack the … And suddenly a couple people
• 58:55
  went and they brought it back up.
• 58:56
  So, um, but that was, that was the vibe back then.
• 58:59
  That's hilarious.
• 59:00
  So it was, like, actual bad hackers, not, you know, uh, uh, criminal
• 59:03
  hackers, and good hackers combining it
• 59:06
  up.
• 59:06
  It, it was e- everybody and anybody.
• 59:08
  And again, most of the, most of the presenters were just really,
• 59:11
  um, intellectually curious people.
• 59:14
  They weren't … They did, they didn't- Right, right … understand
• 59:16
  that, like, you could go and end up making $2 billion and doing a startup
• 59:21
  creating penetration testing tools.
• 59:23
  Right.
• 59:23
  That was f- the furthest thing from the mind.
• 59:26
  In fact, um, so in Boston, Boston was a hotbed for hackers, and,
• 59:31
  uh, there was a, uh, group of hackers called L0pht, L-O-P-H-T.
• 59:36
  Okay.
• 59:37
  And at the conference I attended, um, they released, uh, The Cult of the Dead Cow.
• 59:42
  I love these names.
• 59:43
  It was ca- it was called … What was it called?
• 59:45
  Oh, my God.
• 59:47
  Back Office was the Microsoft- Uh-huh … new amazing thing.
• 59:51
  Yeah.
• 59:51
  So they renamed their old hacking tool Back Orifice.
• 59:55
  Wow.
• 59:55
  Great name.
• 59:55
  Lot of, uh, yeah.
• 59:56
  So they could take over any Windows machine.
• 59:59
  Uh-huh.
• 59:59
  And there was this guy Hobbit who I know.
• 1:00:02
  Of course.
• 1:00:03
  Hobbit is an interesting guy.
• 1:00:05
  He refuses to wear shoes.
• 1:00:07
  Ah, yes.
• 1:00:07
  He just, his whole career he said, "I'm never wearing shoes.
• 1:00:10
  I don't like to wear shoes."
• 1:00:11
  Yeah.
• 1:00:11
  Okay, it's
• 1:00:11
  Hobbit.
• 1:00:11
  I
• 1:00:11
  think
• 1:00:11
  Steve Jobs didn't wear shoes either, I think.
• 1:00:13
  Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  So he ended up cracking Microsoft's, uh, password encryption for the hell of it-
• 1:00:18
  Wow
• 1:00:19
  uh, back in the '90s with this other guy called Mudge.
• 1:00:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:23
  And Mudge ended up in the defense industry or some- Of course … you know, so.
• 1:00:26
  But these were just a group of guys, and, and I, I always, when
• 1:00:29
  people always say, it's like, "Well, how about computer science?
• 1:00:32
  Did they study at MIT?" Mm. I was like, "Mudge was a Berkeley guy."
• 1:00:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:36
  Hobbit was Hobbit.
• 1:00:38
  I don't think he ever went to college.
• 1:00:39
  Mm. Right.
• 1:00:39
  So I always say the best hackers are a music background-
• 1:00:42
  Huh
• 1:00:43
  … or philosophy.
• 1:00:44
  Why do you
• 1:00:44
  think
• 1:00:44
  music?
• 1:00:45
  Music is patterns, and think of a symphony that's all about pattern recognition-
• 1:00:50
  Oh,
• 1:00:50
  yeah … when you're playing an instrument.
• 1:00:51
  Yeah.
• 1:00:52
  So it's very easy to detect an off-key or find a flaw in the-
• 1:00:55
  Oh, right.
• 1:00:56
  Interesting.
• 1:00:57
  Yeah.
• 1:00:57
  Interesting.
• 1:00:57
  I've found great hackers with music backgrounds, so.
• 1:01:00
  Huh.
• 1:01:00
  Huh.
• 1:01:01
  But- How, how, um, how did it change?
• 1:01:03
  Like, how long, when did you, when you retired, what'd you
• 1:01:05
  retire from, one of the banks?
• 1:01:07
  What was the last job you worked at?
• 1:01:08
  Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  I w- I was working at a large investment firm, and, uh, I had had enough of it.
• 1:01:13
  My son was my, I was able to send my son to art school.
• 1:01:16
  Right.
• 1:01:17
  Right.
• 1:01:17
  And I had just, it wa- you know, I- How long
• 1:01:19
  ago did you retire?
• 1:01:20
  I retired four years ago, but, um, got of, got out of financial services
• 1:01:25
  maybe around, uh, 10 to 15 years ago.
• 1:01:28
  Okay.
• 1:01:29
  It just, I'd had enough with it.
• 1:01:30
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:30
  Financially, I was, I was doing well.
• 1:01:32
  I'm sure.
• 1:01:33
  Yeah.
• 1:01:33
  So I did some consulting after that.
• 1:01:35
  Like hacking consulting kind of things or
• 1:01:37
  just computer related?
• 1:01:37
  No, or setting up, so same thing, kind of in a management role where-
• 1:01:40
  Yeah … I would get Pen testers and, uh, the, the, like, the, just to kind
• 1:01:44
  of close the loop, uh, the la- so Mr. Mojo would do this physical engineering.
• 1:01:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:50
  The easiest way to do it now is social engineering- Yeah … which
• 1:01:53
  means you call the help desk-
• 1:01:54
  Mm-hmm
• 1:01:55
  … and you pretend to be a bigwig, and you demand you take off
• 1:01:58
  two-factor authentication, and you need to get this file now.
• 1:02:02
  Right.
• 1:02:02
  And this help desk person is shivering.
• 1:02:04
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:04
  So that's kind of the new wave.
• 1:02:06
  Huh.
• 1:02:07
  And it's much more sophisticated now.
• 1:02:09
  But I- I think they're
• 1:02:09
  doing even AI voices to do that now as well.
• 1:02:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:12
  Yeah.
• 1:02:12
  And to close the loop now, I, I, I don't follow the industry closely.
• 1:02:16
  Yeah.
• 1:02:16
  I don't have any interest-
• 1:02:17
  Yeah,
• 1:02:17
  yeah … in, in it anymore, but, um, you know, I do every now and then I'll take
• 1:02:21
  a look, and AI is really good at hacking.
• 1:02:23
  So at this point- Yeah … you don't need the humans.
• 1:02:26
  All these-
• 1:02:26
  Yeah
• 1:02:27
  … kids and Mr. Mojo, it's just-
• 1:02:29
  Yeah
• 1:02:29
  … go to AI and say, "Find vulnerabilities in this particular
• 1:02:32
  version of blah, blah, blah."
• 1:02:33
  Well, yeah, they released that version of Claude.
• 1:02:35
  I don't know if you kept, keep up with this- Yeah … but they
• 1:02:37
  released that version of Claude that was, like, just, like, was able…
• 1:02:39
  It, it was built to be able to look at the security weaknesses of
• 1:02:42
  every company, and they… Yeah.
• 1:02:44
  That seems dangerous to release.
• 1:02:46
  That seems like not a good idea maybe.
• 1:02:47
  They, they, they handed it out to the, um, like Oracle and- But
• 1:02:50
  of course it's gonna leak.
• 1:02:51
  Yeah.
• 1:02:51
  I mean, it's of course gonna leak.
• 1:02:52
  It's just- Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:53
  Or s- And I think it did leak.
• 1:02:54
  Yeah, or somebody will figure it out.
• 1:02:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:56
  So I-
• 1:02:56
  Right.
• 1:02:56
  Yeah, I'm not as close to it now, but I, I still write short stories on a computer.
• 1:03:00
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:01
  So it's, it's been, uh…
• 1:03:02
  I often wonder how many people are hacking at any particular time.
• 1:03:06
  Yeah.
• 1:03:07
  Um, well, the, the… So there's more sophisticated hacks now.
• 1:03:11
  So here, here's one that, um, I've heard about and people struggle to defend.
• 1:03:18
  So now, um, you can still hack a wire transfer if you're good at it and
• 1:03:22
  you know the right numbers and know how to do a good old wire transfer.
• 1:03:24
  All right.
• 1:03:25
  So what a hacker will do is they will break into, like, the
• 1:03:29
  accounting people's accounts, like the finance and accounting- Mm-hmm
• 1:03:33
  of a co- any comp- any company.
• 1:03:34
  Yep.
• 1:03:35
  Investment firm.
• 1:03:36
  And what they'll do is they'll go into Microsoft and set a, a… Send me a
• 1:03:40
  copy of any email with the keyword invoice, wire transfer- … blah, blah.
• 1:03:44
  You know, they have a whole list.
• 1:03:45
  Right.
• 1:03:46
  Right, right.
• 1:03:46
  And after they set these things up, they just sit there, "Let's just…"
• 1:03:49
  I don't wanna pick on the Ukraine, but say they're just sitting in their ba- Yeah
• 1:03:52
  … mom's basement in Ukraine, and they just set up all these kind of feeders.
• 1:03:56
  Yep.
• 1:03:57
  And once, once they get the email that says wire transfer- Mm-hmm … so
• 1:04:02
  s- you know, this company has to pay another company 200,000.
• 1:04:05
  Yep.
• 1:04:06
  They quickly forge an email to say, "Oh, by the way, our
• 1:04:09
  wire transfer number changed."
• 1:04:12
  And there's no reason not to trust that because-
• 1:04:14
  Right.
• 1:04:15
  Right, right
• 1:04:15
  … the accounts payable person just said, "Hey, you owe this."
• 1:04:18
  It, it's a level of trust.
• 1:04:20
  Right.
• 1:04:20
  And they say, "Oh, okay, we'll send it to another account." Yeah.
• 1:04:24
  And, and that money's poof.
• 1:04:25
  You ain't getting that money back.
• 1:04:26
  That's, that's a legitimate-
• 1:04:27
  Wow
• 1:04:28
  thing that's happening today still.
• 1:04:30
  Wow.
• 1:04:31
  Interesting.
• 1:04:32
  And you don't miss it?
• 1:04:33
  I don't miss it at all.
• 1:04:34
  No?
• 1:04:34
  Well, the early days were the best, like I said, I would've- I'm
• 1:04:36
  sure … done it for free, but- I'm sure … after a while, I, uh-
• 1:04:39
  Yeah.
• 1:04:40
  On the course of my career, it's interesting, people always ask me, since
• 1:04:43
  I've done firewalls, I've, I've reviewed hundreds of thousands, millions of, of,
• 1:04:47
  of what people surf the web, 'cause if people don't un- the firewall shows every-
• 1:04:52
  Everything
• 1:04:52
  employee going everywhere all the time.
• 1:04:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:55
  And they say, "Well, what is it?
• 1:04:56
  Is it intra-…" And I go, "The people are boring." Hmm.
• 1:04:59
  They go and they go on Amazon, and then they go to PayPal.
• 1:05:02
  You know, it's just- Yeah … or they go to buy some shoes or something.
• 1:05:05
  Right.
• 1:05:05
  So it, it's not, uh, sometimes it sounds a lot more exciting than, than it is too.
• 1:05:09
  Yeah.
• 1:05:10
  Yeah, I guess so.
• 1:05:11
  Yeah.
• 1:05:11
  Yeah.
• 1:05:12
  That stuff used to be really hard to set up too, those firewalls and everything.
• 1:05:14
  Oh.
• 1:05:15
  I remember it used to be, like, so complicated.
• 1:05:16
  Even using drivers, I remember back in the '90s- Oh, yeah … you have to set up
• 1:05:19
  these driver, there'd be conflicts- You gotta- … and the right downloads and-
• 1:05:22
  Give me-
• 1:05:22
  It was like that was half of using computers back in the day- The driver
• 1:05:25
  was just keeping it running properly, the stupid drivers.
• 1:05:28
  And fun, you know, funnily enough, I realized, 'cause I've been working
• 1:05:30
  as an editor, so I've been working with computers for years, and it
• 1:05:34
  used to crash all the time, but, like, you don't e- I haven't even
• 1:05:36
  really noticed until I thought about it, it doesn't crash anymore.
• 1:05:39
  That's right.
• 1:05:39
  They're, they're making them better.
• 1:05:40
  They're solid, yeah.
• 1:05:40
  Crazy, right?
• 1:05:41
  Do you think there'll ever be, like, a, a catastrophic hack
• 1:05:45
  into the system of some sort?
• 1:05:46
  I wonder, wonder, like, they always talk about it, like one little
• 1:05:48
  hack into the electrical grid or something could, could take down-
• 1:05:51
  Uh, you know, that's where it gets interesting because you, y- one, one last,
• 1:05:56
  kind of on a global level, just to shift gears, here's an interesting idea of a,
• 1:06:01
  of, of a theoretical great hack, right?
• 1:06:03
  And this is actually very relevant with Iran, right?
• 1:06:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:06
  So the American NSA or something-
• 1:06:09
  Sure
• 1:06:10
  … they said, "We wanna, to this day, we wanna, we wanna break down their
• 1:06:14
  capacity to build a nuclear weapon."
• 1:06:16
  Right.
• 1:06:16
  This is called, I think it's Stuxnet, but don't quote me on this one.
• 1:06:19
  It's been a while.
• 1:06:20
  So basically the, the, the U- the United States government
• 1:06:23
  said, "How can we hack…
• 1:06:26
  What can we do to hack into the Iranian infrastructure-
• 1:06:29
  Mm-hmm
• 1:06:29
  … to slow down their nuclear power aspirations?" Right.
• 1:06:33
  Right?
• 1:06:34
  And there, and I don't understand, but there's a centrifuge that spins a lot.
• 1:06:38
  To create uranium, you've need these centrifuge- Sure,
• 1:06:41
  yeah … things that spin at 5,000
• 1:06:45
  RPMs a side into a- I have no reason not to
• 1:06:45
  believe you,
• 1:06:45
  yeah
• 1:06:46
  something like that.
• 1:06:47
  And these things spin around and they create uranium or something like that.
• 1:06:50
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:51
  And again, this is just secondhand knowledge.
• 1:06:53
  Whatever,
• 1:06:53
  yeah.
• 1:06:53
  But the US government said, "Hey, wouldn't it be neat to…" And they,
• 1:06:58
  and, and, and these are air-gapped.
• 1:07:00
  Air-gap- Mm-hmm … the definition is it ain't hooked up
• 1:07:03
  to the internet theoretically.
• 1:07:04
  Supposedly,
• 1:07:05
  yeah.
• 1:07:05
  So the US probably had some spy or a two- double agent.
• 1:07:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:10
  And they took the old floppy, and they were in the air-gapped Iranian
• 1:07:13
  network, and they plugged in this virus.
• 1:07:15
  Right.
• 1:07:15
  It's
• 1:07:15
  called Stuxnet.
• 1:07:17
  And it, instead of the, the centrifuges spinning at 5,000 RPMs, the hack was
• 1:07:24
  the, the virus had it spin at 10,000.
• 1:07:27
  Clever.
• 1:07:27
  And they all shit the bed.
• 1:07:28
  Very clever.
• 1:07:29
  So very clever.
• 1:07:30
  And part of US's thinking was like, "Well, you know, they don't
• 1:07:34
  have the capability we have."
• 1:07:35
  Yeah.
• 1:07:36
  And then two, two years later, it's, I think this is public knowledge.
• 1:07:40
  So two years later we found out, yes, they do have that capability.
• 1:07:43
  Uh-huh.
• 1:07:44
  So now bo- this stuff is all behind the scenes- Right
• 1:07:47
  from when you look at the news today.
• 1:07:49
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:49
  Very intri- I forgot all about this, how relevant this is.
• 1:07:52
  But then Iran at the time said, "We really hate Armaco," which is the, uh, sovereign
• 1:07:58
  wealth fund- Yeah … of Saudi Arabia.
• 1:08:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:00
  And they took down, Iran took down their entire network.
• 1:08:03
  Wow.
• 1:08:03
  So these are things kind of happening behind the scenes.
• 1:08:05
  Yeah, yeah,
• 1:08:06
  yeah.
• 1:08:06
  Yeah.
• 1:08:06
  It's always a cat and mouse game.
• 1:08:08
  Yeah.
• 1:08:09
  Um, but to, back to your question, can somebody do a full- A real full-scale.
• 1:08:15
  True hackers say probably not- Yeah … because you have such a diversity of-
• 1:08:20
  It's all disconnected, yeah.
• 1:08:20
  Yeah.
• 1:08:20
  Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  There's, there's a benefit of having a diverse- Or- … ecosystem
• 1:08:23
  there's
• 1:08:24
  not one grid.
• 1:08:25
  One thing.
• 1:08:25
  It's many, many grids kind of, yeah.
• 1:08:26
  But y- I think as part of warfare, you're gonna see that more and more.
• 1:08:31
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:08:31
  Yeah.
• 1:08:31
  Maybe under the, under the covers.
• 1:08:34
  Right.
• 1:08:34
  Well- I mean, look at the Israeli a- hack where they, um- The phones
• 1:08:37
  and- … distributed phones and they blew up in people's faces.
• 1:08:40
  That's a- Y- yeah … what's that?
• 1:08:41
  That's a hack.
• 1:08:42
  That's kind of terrifying, actually.
• 1:08:43
  Yeah.
• 1:08:43
  Yeah.
• 1:08:43
  I know.
• 1:08:44
  Yeah.
• 1:08:44
  So, um-
• 1:08:45
  Well, remember when, was the Sony hack by North Korea when they
• 1:08:47
  hacked into Sony's and all the movies came out- Yeah … early and-
• 1:08:50
  Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  Yeah.
• 1:08:51
  Um, if I, if I was gonna do, if I was gonna put on my bad
• 1:08:54
  guy hat, how would I do it?
• 1:08:56
  I, what I would do is, so there's, um, all of the Internet, think of a
• 1:09:01
  pyramid, and at the top- I'm gonna
• 1:09:02
  get, I'm gonna get on a list because of this podcast episode.
• 1:09:06
  Uh, think of a pyramid.
• 1:09:07
  Yeah.
• 1:09:07
  And at the top of the Internet pyramid is what's called certificates.
• 1:09:11
  Okay.
• 1:09:11
  These are the cryptographic- Yeah, mm-hmm
• 1:09:12
  keys that- Like SSLs or whatever.
• 1:09:14
  Yeah … SSL, got it.
• 1:09:14
  Yeah.
• 1:09:14
  Yeah.
• 1:09:15
  And there's, there's core keys, and there's actually a few inter- there's
• 1:09:20
  this elaborate ritual that's part show that 12 people have to go and pass
• 1:09:25
  security and- Okay … you replace and update these keys, but there's been a
• 1:09:29
  number of smaller hacks, like somebody was able to grab Microsoft's keys.
• 1:09:33
  Okay.
• 1:09:34
  So if you really wanted to pop everything, if you could grab those top
• 1:09:39
  level pyramid keys- Get all the SSLs, yeah … if I was, if I was really
• 1:09:42
  a- Yeah … um, like I s- I'm just a dude hanging out in Mexico- Sure.
• 1:09:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah … City now.
• 1:09:46
  But if, uh, probably That, that might be juicy, as we would call it.
• 1:09:51
  Huh.
• 1:09:51
  That might be a juicy- Huh
• 1:09:52
  juicy target, I guess.
• 1:09:53
  Huh.
• 1:09:54
  Well, if anybody is, uh, looking to do that- … do not reference
• 1:09:56
  my podcast when you get caught.
• 1:09:58
  You will go to jail.
• 1:09:59
  You will go to jail.
• 1:10:00
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:00
  You will, you will not pass go and you
• 1:10:01
  will go to- Well, you might, you might not.
• 1:10:02
  Right?
• 1:10:02
  I'm sure some hackers don't get caught.
• 1:10:04
  They probably been doing it for years.
• 1:10:05
  Oh.
• 1:10:05
  Yeah,
• 1:10:05
  yeah.
• 1:10:05
  So one interesting case where hackers never get caught, 'cause most of
• 1:10:09
  the time hackers will get caught.
• 1:10:10
  Right.
• 1:10:10
  You're always gonna trip over something.
• 1:10:13
  Right.
• 1:10:13
  The two biggest cases, there was, um … And maybe, I don't know, 15 years
• 1:10:17
  ago, there was a, a, a group called Lu- Lutz, Lutz SEC, and they … Lutz, S-E-C.
• 1:10:23
  Interesting name.
• 1:10:23
  And they just did it for fun.
• 1:10:24
  Yeah.
• 1:10:25
  Again, back to the fun.
• 1:10:26
  And it was a guy who lived in a house of proj- housing projects on the Lower
• 1:10:30
  East Side, and how the FBI finally got this guy is one time he forgot
• 1:10:35
  to connect to IRC with encryption.
• 1:10:37
  Huh.
• 1:10:37
  He forgot-
• 1:10:38
  One time.
• 1:10:39
  You're gonna get busted.
• 1:10:40
  Yeah.
• 1:10:40
  Now, just to … If these listeners are, have aspirations, in fact.
• 1:10:43
  Yeah.
• 1:10:43
  You're gonna get busted.
• 1:10:44
  There's one guy I know of, there's others, but his name is Phineas, Phineas Fisher-
• 1:10:49
  Mm-hmm
• 1:10:49
  … and he's a good guy in that he hacks, like, the bad Israeli defense company-
• 1:10:56
  Oh, good
• 1:10:56
  … companies.
• 1:10:57
  Good, good.
• 1:10:57
  Yeah, I like that.
• 1:10:57
  And he says, "Fuck you. You're … You know, you're … What you're
• 1:11:00
  doing is having people killed."
• 1:11:02
  Right.
• 1:11:03
  To my knowledge, he has never been caught.
• 1:11:06
  In fact, the latest exploit, he's been quiet for a while, he robbed a bank.
• 1:11:11
  He really did break into a bank, grabbed money.
• 1:11:13
  Wow.
• 1:11:13
  And he held that up as a bounty.
• 1:11:15
  If people did good things and hacked into bad banks, he would give them the money.
• 1:11:19
  So Phine- Phineas Fisher, I think, is still-
• 1:11:22
  Oh, wow
• 1:11:23
  … is still loose these days.
• 1:11:24
  I'll look that one up.
• 1:11:24
  But that's the exception.
• 1:11:25
  Wow.
• 1:11:26
  And you know this guy?
• 1:11:27
  I do not know him personally.
• 1:11:28
  Oh, you don't know him personally?
• 1:11:28
  But I, I follow, I used to follow these things too.
• 1:11:30
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:32
  Yeah.
• 1:11:32
  Wild.
• 1:11:34
  And you're moving to Mexico City when, did you say?
• 1:11:36
  Uh, probably- Two or three months?
• 1:11:37
  … next September.
• 1:11:38
  I need to go to the embassy when I get back home.
• 1:11:41
  Anything else to say about Mexico, Mexico City?
• 1:11:43
  Uh, things you love, things
• 1:11:45
  you hate.
• 1:11:45
  I gotta say beautiful people.
• 1:11:46
  I was, I was just in Veracruz-
• 1:11:48
  Oh,
• 1:11:48
  yeah, yeah, yeah … over the weekend.
• 1:11:49
  Yeah.
• 1:11:49
  Took a little getaway.
• 1:11:50
  And ev- everywhere I go, it's just … It, it, the … Not just Mexico City,
• 1:11:54
  but this is a beautiful country.
• 1:11:55
  Yeah.
• 1:11:55
  Well, Latin America, I think, is just a general vibe.
• 1:11:58
  Yeah.
• 1:11:58
  Yeah.
• 1:11:58
  Not just the shore.
• 1:11:59
  Yeah.
• 1:11:59
  And, uh, the cost is reasonable.
• 1:12:01
  Yeah.
• 1:12:01
  That folk- folks think it's, like, dirt cheap.
• 1:12:03
  It's, it's getting worse.
• 1:12:04
  Yeah.
• 1:12:04
  It, it is getting worse.
• 1:12:05
  Yeah.
• 1:12:05
  But- I was in Polanco, uh, last week.
• 1:12:07
  Wow.
• 1:12:08
  And, like, that was, like, America prices.
• 1:12:10
  It was kind of ridiculous, actually.
• 1:12:12
  Exactly.
• 1:12:12
  And when you come here, be nice, and as we're doing, try, try
• 1:12:15
  to learn some Spanish, I guess.
• 1:12:16
  Yeah, learn the language.
• 1:12:17
  Do, do what you can do.
• 1:12:18
  That's the problem.
• 1:12:19
  A lot of people don't even try to learn the language.
• 1:12:20
  Learn the language.
• 1:12:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:22
  Go wherever you want.
• 1:12:23
  Uh, the final question I usually ask, I usually always ask everybody who comes
• 1:12:26
  on the podcast, gonna be a bit of a, of a, of a, uh, curveball, but, well,
• 1:12:30
  you're a philosophy major, actually.
• 1:12:32
  That's good.
• 1:12:33
  What do you think happens when we die?
• 1:12:35
  So I, I, I refer to myself as an atheist Buddhist.
• 1:12:38
  Okay.
• 1:12:39
  So from my philosophy background, I'm a hardcore atheist- Mm-hmm … as we say.
• 1:12:43
  Right.
• 1:12:43
  Uh, so I don't think anything happens when we die.
• 1:12:46
  Okay.
• 1:12:47
  But, um, but that really, uh, stresses how we live now.
• 1:12:52
  Sure.
• 1:12:52
  Yeah.
• 1:12:52
  So it puts more stress on you.
• 1:12:54
  You got this life… I was telling my son I was in Lima, Peru for a couple weeks,
• 1:12:58
  a couple months ago, and the American, you know, the kind of, the American ethos
• 1:13:03
  is, "Oh, I'm gonna retire at 75, 'cause I'll get maximum Social Security- Yeah
• 1:13:08
  and then I'm gonna see the world."
• 1:13:09
  Yeah.
• 1:13:09
  I mean, you're told-
• 1:13:09
  Well, that's not gonna happen.
• 1:13:10
  No.
• 1:13:11
  So the advice is, since there is no God, according to my, my philosophy-
• 1:13:16
  Right
• 1:13:16
  … do it now.
• 1:13:17
  Because when I was in Lima, Peru, I'd go around and I'm going on
• 1:13:20
  all these TripAdvisor tours.
• 1:13:22
  Yep.
• 1:13:22
  And I'm in my early 60s- Yeah
• 1:13:24
  and I was the oldest person.
• 1:13:25
  I didn't see any of those 75-year-old Americans- Right.
• 1:13:28
  Right
• 1:13:29
  … um, you know, surfing down the sand dunes- Right.
• 1:13:31
  Right … of, uh, Peru.
• 1:13:32
  Yeah.
• 1:13:33
  Yeah.
• 1:13:33
  So.
• 1:13:33
  The, the whole saving for a future is- Do it … there's no there there.
• 1:13:37
  Do it now.
• 1:13:37
  Do it now.
• 1:13:38
  Do it now.
• 1:13:39
  Ted, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 1:13:41
  Appreciate you.
• 1:13:42
  Fascinating story.
• 1:13:43
  Um, I don't imagine you have anything to promote.
• 1:13:46
  Kindness and peace.
• 1:13:47
  Ah,
• 1:13:48
  lovely.
• 1:13:49
  Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  Lovely.
• 1:13:49
  Be kind to
• 1:13:50
  each other.
• 1:13:50
  All right, Ted.
• 1:13:50
  Thank you so much.
• 1:13:52
  My pleasure.
• 1:13:52
  Cool.
• 1:13:56
  And there you have it.
• 1:14:00
  Fascinating conversation with Ted from my Spanish class.
• 1:14:04
  From my Spanish class is not Ted's last name.
• 1:14:07
  As I said in the intro, I withheld his last name on request because
• 1:14:12
  he was a hacker, and you know.
• 1:14:15
  You know.
• 1:14:16
  Thank you once again, Ted, for taking the time to come on my podcast.
• 1:14:20
  I truly appreciate it.
• 1:14:22
  As someone who was on the internet at a very young age, this whole
• 1:14:26
  conversation was just fascinating to me.
• 1:14:29
  If you also know somebody who was on the internet at an early age and
• 1:14:33
  would also find this conversation fascinating… I've used that word too
• 1:14:37
  many times, but once you start going with the word, you just gotta keep going.
• 1:14:41
  Won't you share this episode with them?
• 1:14:43
  Send it to them right now.
• 1:14:44
  Say, "Hey, this is an interesting episode about a guy who worked on the internet
• 1:14:48
  before anybody knew what the internet was.
• 1:14:50
  You'll love it." Or, "Hey, blank, you like computers.
• 1:14:54
  You were on the internet early on.
• 1:14:56
  You might enjoy this episode of this podcast I love."
• 1:14:59
  It- Just a few suggestions.
• 1:15:00
  Just some thoughts.
• 1:15:02
  Growing a podcast like this is difficult work, and it takes a village,
• 1:15:07
  and you, person listening to this right now, are the village at this
• 1:15:10
  moment, so please do share it with the rest of the village of yours.
• 1:15:17
  Did I make that as convoluted as possible?
• 1:15:19
  I think, I think that I did.
• 1:15:22
  If you would like to follow the podcast on Instagram, and I know
• 1:15:25
  you would, go to Instagram and go to @onefjefpod, O-N-E-F-J-E-F-P-O-D.
• 1:15:32
  Or TikTok.
• 1:15:33
  Oh, you like TikTok?
• 1:15:34
  Well, have I got a TikTok page for you.
• 1:15:38
  @onefjefpodcast.
• 1:15:38
  You gotta add cast to that one.
• 1:15:40
  If you'd like to email the podcast, you can do so at onefjefpod.
• 1:15:43
  This is all in the show notes in case you're trying to…
• 1:15:46
  You know, don't run for a pen.
• 1:15:48
  Or best of all, if you would like to call and leave a voicemail message for
• 1:15:52
  the podcast telling me anything at all about anything at all, that phone number
• 1:15:57
  would be country code 1-669-241-5882.
• 1:16:07
  Ugh.
• 1:16:08
  That wasn't bad.
• 1:16:09
  1-669-241-5882. I may or may not play your voicemail message on the air.
• 1:16:16
  Isn't that exciting?
• 1:16:17
  That is very exciting.
• 1:16:19
  Finally, please do like, rate, subscribe, and review.
• 1:16:22
  These things help more than you realize, or more than I realize.
• 1:16:26
  I honestly don't know how much they help, but I feel like every podcast,
• 1:16:30
  they say it, so I feel like I should say it too or be left behind.
• 1:16:33
  So please do do that.
• 1:16:36
  Maybe I can get Ted to, uh, hack into the podcasting thing
• 1:16:40
  and up my ranking or whatever.
• 1:16:43
  I'll talk to him about that.
• 1:16:45
  And finally, I'm going to leave you with a quote from the late,
• 1:16:48
  great Tom Robbins Our lives are not as limited as we think they are.
• 1:16:55
  The world is a wonderfully weird place.
• 1:16:58
  Consensual reality is significantly flawed.
• 1:17:01
  No institution can be trusted, but love does work.
• 1:17:05
  All things are possible, and we could all be happy and fulfilled if we only
• 1:17:10
  had the guts to be truly free and the wisdom to shrink our egos and quit
• 1:17:15
  taking ourselves so damn seriously.
• 1:17:19
  I'll see you next week
• 1:17:21
  Very good, Jeffrey