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“Mitch McConnell does lines." · Pod Save America

0:21
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:23
Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
0:24
Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
0:25
Speaker 1: On today's show, Joe Biden takes new action to fight
0:27
Speaker 1: gun crime. The Trump family may soon face accountability for
0:30
Speaker 1: a bunch of other crimes. And The Atlantic's Mark Leibovich
0:33
Speaker 1: is here to talk about how official Washington has changed
0:36
Speaker 1: since the last time he skewered the city in his
0:38
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller, This Town. But first, check out
0:42
Speaker 1: this week's Offline, where I talk to Twitter co-founder and
0:44
Speaker 1: former CEO Ev Williams about the platform's early years, what
0:47
Speaker 1: went wrong, how to fix it, what the fuck's going
0:49
Speaker 1: on with Elon Musk, and whether Donald Trump should get
0:52
Speaker 1: a second chance. Also, check out the latest episode of
0:54
Speaker 1: America Dissected, where co-founder and executive director of the Detroit
0:58
Speaker 1: Black Community Food Security Network, Malik Yakini joins Abdul to
1:01
Speaker 1: discuss food insecurity, the consequences of the way we produce food,
1:05
Speaker 1: and how this shapes who gets healthy, accessible, affordable food
1:08
Speaker 1: and who doesn't. New episodes of Offline drop every Sunday,
1:11
Speaker 1: and America Dissected drops every Tuesday. All right, let's get
1:15
Speaker 1: to the news. President Biden took action to fight the
1:17
Speaker 1: rising epidemic of gun violence today by announcing new regulations
1:21
Speaker 1: on ghost guns, weapons that are assembled from parts you
1:24
Speaker 1: order online, and nominating Steve Dettelbach, a former U.S. attorney
1:28
Speaker 1: from Ohio, to run the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms,
1:31
Speaker 1: and Explosives, which hasn't had a director since 2015. Here's
1:35
Speaker 1: Biden at the White House today speaking about the new actions.
1:38
Speaker 4: The NRA called this rule, I'm about to announce, extreme. Extreme.
1:45
Speaker 4: But let me ask you, is it extreme to protect
1:48
Speaker 4: police officers? Extreme to protect our children? Extreme to keep
1:53
Speaker 4: guns out of the hands of people who couldn't even
1:55
Speaker 4: pass a background check? Look, the idea that someone on
2:00
Speaker 4: a terrorist list could purchase one of these guns is extreme.
2:05
Speaker 4: It isn't extreme. It's just basic common sense.
2:09
Speaker 1: So, Tommy, there was a story in Politico just Friday
2:12
Speaker 1: about how gun control advocates, among them Senator Chris Murphy,
2:18
Speaker 1: have been frustrated with the Biden administration for not doing
2:20
Speaker 1: more on the issue. How big of a deal are
2:23
Speaker 1: these steps? And is there anything... else left for Biden
2:26
Speaker 1: to do on guns without Congress?
2:29
Speaker 3: I mean, I suspect that even the Biden team in
2:31
Speaker 3: the Biden White House would say that this is a
2:35
Speaker 3: small step in the broader effort to reduce gun violence
2:38
Speaker 3: in this country and to get guns off the streets.
2:40
Speaker 3: But in terms of what the Chris Murphy wish list was,
2:43
Speaker 3: I mean, he got a new ATF nominee. He got
2:46
Speaker 3: regulations to crack down on ghost guns. It sounds like
2:49
Speaker 3: some outside activists want issue of gun violence to be
2:54
Speaker 3: handled by some sort of czar, some sort of leader
2:57
Speaker 3: of a task force inside the White House and not
2:59
Speaker 3: handled through the Domestic Policy Council. But so, you know,
3:03
Speaker 3: two out of three parts of that wish list were
3:06
Speaker 3: handled today, seemingly.
3:07
Speaker 5: Yeah.
3:08
Speaker 1: And it does seem like, again, legislation is going to
3:11
Speaker 1: be the most meaningful action we can take and can't
3:14
Speaker 1: pass legislation without either 60 Democratic votes or 51 Democratic
3:20
Speaker 1: senators who are willing to get rid of the filibuster.
3:22
Speaker 1: So there we are again, no matter how much the
3:24
Speaker 1: Biden administration talks about it, fights, does whatever.
3:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. You hit the nail on the head there.
3:32
Speaker 1: That's it.
3:33
Speaker 2: Even Chris Murthby himself said that he was on the
3:35
Speaker 2: fence about whether or not a kind of coordinator type
3:39
Speaker 2: position was needed in the White House for a while
3:40
Speaker 2: and now thinks it's necessary. But it is like one
3:42
Speaker 2: of those conversations you have a million times, which is like, oh,
3:46
Speaker 2: there needs to be a czar for this and a
3:48
Speaker 2: czar for that. I don't know what these czars are
3:50
Speaker 2: supposed to be doing.
3:51
Speaker 1: Czars are helpful. They bring focus to an issue. They
3:54
Speaker 1: help with organization stuff. But again, it is a pretty
3:57
Speaker 1: small step.
3:58
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not against a czar.
4:00
Speaker 1: No, of course. We've talked before about how crime is
4:04
Speaker 1: one of the big issues Republicans will be running on
4:05
Speaker 1: in the midterms. It's also one of the top issues
4:07
Speaker 1: on voters' minds. Lovett, do you think Democrats should respond
4:12
Speaker 1: by talking about common sense gun control and hitting Republicans
4:15
Speaker 1: for blocking any action to reduce gun violence?
4:18
Speaker 2: No, I think cowering in fear of the issue and
4:20
Speaker 2: trying to change the subject has been going really well. Yeah, look,
4:22
Speaker 2: we have to talk about it. I think that Republicans
4:24
Speaker 2: have this giant megaphone where they've been telling a basically
4:26
Speaker 2: false story that this is like a Biden crime wave
4:30
Speaker 2: or it's a Democratic city crime wave. Neither of those
4:33
Speaker 2: statements is true. Gun violence began rising and crime began
4:36
Speaker 2: rising during the pandemic. gun violence and deaths are just
4:41
Speaker 2: as prevalent in red states as they are in blue cities.
4:43
Speaker 2: In fact, you are much more likely to be murdered
4:46
Speaker 2: if you live in the reddest of red states than
4:49
Speaker 2: in the bluest of blue states. So I think we
4:51
Speaker 2: have to talk about it. We have to make an argument.
4:53
Speaker 2: We have to make an argument about guns. We have
4:55
Speaker 2: to make an argument about public safety and do it
4:58
Speaker 2: on our own terms.
4:59
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
5:00
Speaker 1: Murder rates were an average of 40% higher in 2020
5:03
Speaker 1: in the 25 states that Trump carried in the last elections.
5:07
Speaker 2: And just one other thing I would add, too, is
5:09
Speaker 2: I do think, you know, we don't talk enough about
5:15
Speaker 2: guns and the roles they play in suicide. And I
5:17
Speaker 2: do think that's a place where, again, talking about the
5:20
Speaker 2: hopelessness a lot of people have felt, especially during the
5:22
Speaker 2: pandemic and after, and making that a big part of
5:25
Speaker 2: this conversation is really important, too. You know, gun violence
5:28
Speaker 2: is often, I think we focus on some of the
5:29
Speaker 2: most egregious and violent mass shootings.
5:32
Speaker 1: Those are terrible.
5:33
Speaker 2: They are a scourge on our society. They are a
5:35
Speaker 2: result of failure on every possible level. But at the
5:38
Speaker 2: same time, the most likely way a person is going
5:41
Speaker 2: to die with a gun, it is by their own doing.
5:44
Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes.
5:45
Speaker 1: Is lost as well. Tell me, what do you think
5:47
Speaker 1: about the politics of this issue? I saw, you know,
5:49
Speaker 1: Chuck Grassley put out a statement as soon as Biden
5:52
Speaker 1: had this announcement today saying, you know, it's not guns
5:56
Speaker 1: that are the problem. It's the defunding the police and
5:59
Speaker 1: the Biden crime wave that are hitting all these cities.
6:01
Speaker 1: You know, what do you think Democrats should, how should
6:03
Speaker 1: respond to this?
6:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think we've seen all kinds of
6:07
Speaker 3: evidence that Republicans are going to run on crime. I mean,
6:10
Speaker 3: we're even seeing it here in liberal Los Angeles, where
6:12
Speaker 3: the mayoral race is currently focused on crime and murder
6:16
Speaker 3: rates in the city and a whole set of associated issues. So, yeah,
6:19
Speaker 3: I mean, I would like to see Democrats go on
6:20
Speaker 3: offense on the issue. We just can't be constantly explaining
6:24
Speaker 3: what we are not for. We have to talk about
6:26
Speaker 3: what we would do to make people safer. If you
6:28
Speaker 3: look at 2021 Pew polling, 53% of Americans think gun
6:32
Speaker 3: laws should be stricter than they currently are. you can
6:36
Speaker 3: take smaller slices of the gun issue like support for
6:39
Speaker 3: expanded background checks, support for banning high-capacity magazines or banning
6:44
Speaker 3: assault rifles and get even bigger majorities in support of
6:47
Speaker 3: those issues. And there are two policies in that Pew
6:49
Speaker 3: poll that Republicans support, a majority of Republicans support. One
6:54
Speaker 3: is preventing those with mental illnesses from buying guns. And
6:57
Speaker 3: the second is subjecting private gun sales and gun show
7:00
Speaker 3: sales to background checks. So the point is, you can
7:03
Speaker 3: find ways to make this a wedge issue that puts
7:06
Speaker 3: Republicans on the defensive and that makes them own the
7:10
Speaker 3: increase in violent crime. Because obviously people wouldn't be getting
7:14
Speaker 3: shot as often if their streets weren't flooded with guns.
7:16
Speaker 3: It's a huge problem. We've known this for a long time.
7:19
Speaker 2: There's this woman who wrote an article called How to
7:23
Speaker 2: Murder Your Husband. And then she is currently on trial
7:27
Speaker 2: for murdering her husband. But one of the steps she
7:29
Speaker 2: took was trying to make a ghost gun so that
7:32
Speaker 2: the gun couldn't be traceable. Unfortunately, she did order it
7:35
Speaker 2: on eBay, which sort of backfired, ironically, no pun intended,
7:39
Speaker 2: on her. But she did claim she just bought that
7:41
Speaker 2: for research.
7:42
Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
7:43
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know where Republicans are on this
7:46
Speaker 3: ghost gun issue, but it feels like you could put
7:49
Speaker 3: together a pretty scary ad about how a terrorist could
7:52
Speaker 3: assemble a ghost gun while Republican member Jim Jordan, I
7:57
Speaker 3: don't know who, opposed it. I mean, that feels like
8:00
Speaker 3: a pretty easy way to make this, you know, hit
8:04
Speaker 3: home for people.
8:05
Speaker 1: Again, this regulation that Biden announced today, to go back
8:09
Speaker 1: to Lovett's anecdote, would make, in case you weren't stupid
8:13
Speaker 1: enough to buy your ghost gun on eBay... They would
8:16
Speaker 1: make this traceable. This is what Republicans are against, purely
8:20
Speaker 1: making the purchase of ghost guns traceable. I mean, look,
8:24
Speaker 1: I think it's very easy for Democrats to say at
8:26
Speaker 1: a time when gun crime is on the rise, Republicans
8:30
Speaker 1: want to make it easier for you to get guns.
8:32
Speaker 1: It's for hunting, John. They don't want to hold bad
8:34
Speaker 1: cops accountable. And they don't want to give good cops
8:37
Speaker 1: the support they need to keep our community safe.
8:39
Speaker 2: You don't want these deer knowing where this gun is from.
8:41
Speaker 1: And Democrats in... a bunch of races in 2020 made
8:45
Speaker 1: this point, even as the debate around defunding the police
8:48
Speaker 1: was going on. Raphael Warnock accused his opponent in that
8:52
Speaker 1: race in Georgia of, so you're the one who actually
8:55
Speaker 1: voted to defund the police. I want to hold bad
8:57
Speaker 1: cops accountable. I want to give good cops the funding
8:59
Speaker 1: they need. And by the way, you're going to make
9:01
Speaker 1: it easier for murderers to get guns. Like, it's a
9:04
Speaker 1: pretty simple message for Democrats, I think.
9:06
Speaker 2: Just one other fact, which is... she also tried to
9:10
Speaker 2: collect on at least 10 insurance policies.
9:13
Speaker 3: That seems like a lot.
9:15
Speaker 2: I didn't think she did a good job.
9:16
Speaker 3: Go for like two. Does ATF seem to be one
9:20
Speaker 3: of those old-timey agencies that just has a weird basket
9:24
Speaker 3: of issues like alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives? How do
9:27
Speaker 3: they go together other than don't do all of that
9:30
Speaker 3: at the same time?
9:30
Speaker 2: The original name of the agency was called the Don't
9:33
Speaker 2: Threaten Us with a Good Time Agency.
9:34
Speaker 6: Okay.
9:38
Speaker 1: I was going to say, yeah, it started off as
9:39
Speaker 1: vices and then they added explosives. And I'm like, oh, well.
9:42
Speaker 1: All right. Speaking of crime, the New York Times reported
9:44
Speaker 1: over the weekend that the January 6th committee has concluded
9:47
Speaker 1: that they have enough evidence to make a criminal referral
9:50
Speaker 1: to the Justice Department for Donald Trump's role in obstructing
9:53
Speaker 1: the certification of the 2020 presidential election. The only catch?
9:57
Speaker 1: Some members and staff are reportedly reluctant to sign... a
10:00
Speaker 1: referral because it may look too political. And they also
10:03
Speaker 1: argue that a referral will ultimately have no bearing on
10:05
Speaker 1: whether Merrick Garland decides to charge Trump. Meanwhile, two other
10:09
Speaker 1: January 6th developments we learned about over the last few days.
10:12
Speaker 1: Stop the Steal organizer Ali Alexander has agreed to cooperate
10:15
Speaker 1: with the Justice Department's criminal investigation into January 6th. And
10:20
Speaker 1: the committee has a text from Don Jr. to Mark
10:22
Speaker 1: Meadows two days after the election that says, quote, it's
10:25
Speaker 1: very simple. We have multiple paths. We control them all.
10:28
Speaker 1: We either have a vote we control and we win
10:31
Speaker 1: or it gets kicked to Congress on January 6th. All right.
10:34
Speaker 1: So let's start with the one six committee. Does the
10:36
Speaker 1: reluctance of some committee members to send a criminal referral
10:39
Speaker 1: make any sense substantively or politically? Love it. You want
10:43
Speaker 1: to take this one?
10:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I make three points on this point. Point number one. Hey,
10:48
Speaker 2: stop thinking so hard. And stop assuming the context of
10:55
Speaker 2: Trump's criminality. If this was just a normal committee that
10:58
Speaker 2: was doing its investigation and over the course of its work,
11:01
Speaker 2: it uncovered crimes, it would say, oh my goodness, we've
11:04
Speaker 2: discovered crimes here. In our work of trying to find
11:06
Speaker 2: out what happened in some industry or some part of
11:09
Speaker 2: the government, we've uncovered some issue that leads to us
11:11
Speaker 2: to believe there are crimes here. We better tell the
11:13
Speaker 2: Department of Justice because that's our responsibility. That's it. It's
11:17
Speaker 2: as simple as that. Two, Stop worrying so much about
11:21
Speaker 2: what people who act entirely in bad faith will do
11:25
Speaker 2: when you tell the truth. Stop worrying so much about that.
11:28
Speaker 2: Legitimacy isn't something bestowed by God from above, and it's
11:32
Speaker 2: not going to be given to you by Fox News.
11:34
Speaker 2: Legitimacy is something you create by your conduct.
11:36
Speaker 3: Or you get from David Gergen in agreement.
11:39
Speaker 1: Sure.
11:40
Speaker 2: Or you can maybe get some in agreement with a
11:41
Speaker 2: cup of coffee.
11:42
Speaker 7: That's correct.
11:43
Speaker 3: David Gergen on the Morning Joe set with the legitimacy.
11:45
Speaker 1: He will give you legitimacy.
11:47
Speaker 2: And that's it. I'll just make two points.
11:49
Speaker 1: I will add one, which is, One way to ensure
11:51
Speaker 1: that the press will frame a criminal referral as politically
11:54
Speaker 1: motivated is telling the press that you're worried a criminal
11:57
Speaker 1: referral will be framed as politically motivated. Shut the fuck up.
12:01
Speaker 1: Stop talking to the reporters.
12:04
Speaker 2: I remembered my third point. hey, you know what's a
12:06
Speaker 2: great way to totally fuck up how all your information
12:09
Speaker 2: will be received? Introduce the idea that the most important
12:12
Speaker 2: question is whether or not you include a criminal referral.
12:15
Speaker 2: Just lay it all out there. Whether you do the
12:17
Speaker 2: referral or not is ultimately a sideshow. The most important
12:20
Speaker 2: thing are the facts and the information you'll be sharing
12:22
Speaker 2: with the country, especially if some of it is new,
12:25
Speaker 2: and apparently some of it will be new. Why introduce
12:27
Speaker 2: this whole debate about will they or won't they on
12:29
Speaker 2: a criminal referral? That was the third point.
12:33
Speaker 3: Obviously, Trump and his allies are going to politicize whatever
12:36
Speaker 3: you do or say anyway.
12:37
Speaker 4: So stop, think, start.
12:38
Speaker 3: If you find evidence of a crime, send a referral,
12:40
Speaker 3: make the case in a way that is concise and
12:42
Speaker 3: lay it out in a letter or however you.
12:43
Speaker 7: Want to do it.
12:45
Speaker 3: The weird thing about this whole issue is that apparently
12:48
Speaker 3: the January 6th committee is mad that only one of
12:51
Speaker 3: their four contempt referrals to the Department of Justice have
12:54
Speaker 3: been charged, the Steve Bannon contempt referral. So they're mad
12:58
Speaker 3: at DOJ for not acting, but then worried about sending
13:00
Speaker 3: them a letter asking them to act. It makes no sense.
13:01
Speaker 3: I also just like to use this moment to point
13:03
Speaker 3: out again, that Stephen Miller sued to block the committee
13:07
Speaker 3: from gaining access to his phone records because he's still
13:10
Speaker 3: on his family plan. And he said it was an
13:12
Speaker 3: invasion of their privacy. I just think that is endlessly funny.
13:16
Speaker 1: Thank you for bringing that up because that news was
13:18
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks old and we have not talked
13:19
Speaker 1: about that on this podcast yet, which is.
13:21
Speaker 3: The family plan.
13:22
Speaker 1: Shame on us. Shame on us. You know, we should
13:25
Speaker 1: say on this story. So the only congressperson who's gone
13:28
Speaker 1: on the record of being sort of wishy-washy in this
13:30
Speaker 1: is Zoe Lofgren. Democrat on the committee, a representative from California.
13:36
Speaker 1: Liz Cheney was asked about this story over the weekend,
13:39
Speaker 1: and she said there is no disagreement on the committee.
13:41
Speaker 1: And then she also said, by the way, it's absolutely
13:44
Speaker 1: clear that Trump and a number of people around him
13:46
Speaker 1: knew what they were doing was unlawful, and they did
13:48
Speaker 1: it anyway. So that's what Cheney's saying.
13:50
Speaker 2: And even in the Times piece that explored this question
13:53
Speaker 2: about this debate inside the committee, a bunch of members said,
13:55
Speaker 2: we haven't even talked about this yet. We haven't even
13:58
Speaker 2: sat around a table and had this conversation yet. So
13:59
Speaker 2: this all felt This got a little more public too
14:03
Speaker 2: soon in a really strange way.
14:05
Speaker 1: Don't return the calls. Reporter calls you. Don't return the calls.
14:07
Speaker 1: Don't return the email.
14:08
Speaker 2: John, we're journalists now. I don't appreciate that. All right?
14:11
Speaker 2: Light is the best disinfectant. Democracy dies in the dark, John.
14:14
Speaker 1: Tommy, how big of a deal do you think the
14:16
Speaker 1: Ali Alexander and Don Jr. stories are?
14:19
Speaker 2: Hard to tell.
14:20
Speaker 3: So with Ali Alexander, I mean... He has told investigators
14:24
Speaker 3: that he communicated with some House Republicans. I think we
14:27
Speaker 3: knew about this because they talked about it on live
14:29
Speaker 3: streams and things. But it's like Paul Gosar, Mo Brooks,
14:32
Speaker 3: Andy Biggs, a lot of Arizona represented there. And he
14:35
Speaker 3: also communicated with Kimberly Guilfoyle. But I think the bigger
14:38
Speaker 3: question is he handed over thousands of records and sat
14:40
Speaker 3: for hours of testimony. Depends on what he said. The
14:43
Speaker 3: Don Jr. piece of this is particularly amazing. I mean,
14:48
Speaker 3: the texts from Don Jr. were sent on November 5th.
14:52
Speaker 3: They show that he was focused on overturning the election
14:55
Speaker 3: before the votes were even counted, before the networks had
14:57
Speaker 3: called the election for Joe Biden. Don's lawyer, John Jr.
15:01
Speaker 3: 's lawyer is saying, look, he was just forwarding along
15:04
Speaker 3: an email. Classic case of just forwarding along the coup
15:07
Speaker 3: plan without reading it. But the message from Don that
15:11
Speaker 3: preceded the forward said, quote, this is what we need
15:14
Speaker 3: to do. Please read it and please get it to
15:16
Speaker 3: everyone that needs to see it because I'm not sure
15:17
Speaker 3: we're doing it. So, you know, not a lot of
15:20
Speaker 3: wiggle room there for Don. So, yeah, I mean, look,
15:23
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, like the president's idiot
15:25
Speaker 3: son is texting the White House chief of staff all
15:28
Speaker 3: this stuff. He's also saying fire Fauci, fire the FBI director,
15:31
Speaker 3: put Rick Grinnell, the Twitter troll that became head of
15:35
Speaker 3: the nation's intelligence community in charge of the FBI, name
15:38
Speaker 3: a special prosecutor. So, I don't know. Trump's kids are
15:42
Speaker 3: like deep in this shit and it's pretty disturbing.
15:44
Speaker 1: I will say the same day that Don Jr. sent
15:49
Speaker 1: those texts to Meadows, he tweeted, that the 2024 GOP
15:53
Speaker 1: hopefuls weren't doing enough to help Trump steal the election.
15:57
Speaker 2: Which I believe he also texted.
15:58
Speaker 1: It was all happening in the open. It was all
16:00
Speaker 1: happening in the open.
16:01
Speaker 2: I will say two points about this. One, Mark Meadows,
16:05
Speaker 2: he must just seize up every time he gets a
16:07
Speaker 2: fucking text. His texts are terrible. That's what we've learned.
16:10
Speaker 2: He has terrible texts.
16:11
Speaker 5: Terrible texts.
16:12
Speaker 2: Terrible texts. Two, yeah, Don Jr. 's lawyer pushed back,
16:16
Speaker 2: as Tommy said, by saying he was just forwarding on
16:17
Speaker 2: the plan. And I love that. Like, yeah, man. We
16:20
Speaker 2: don't think Don Jr. came up with the fucking plan.
16:22
Speaker 2: We don't think he's ever come up. Yeah, he came
16:24
Speaker 2: up with the legal framework for a coup.
16:26
Speaker 1: Him and Eric.
16:27
Speaker 2: We know he didn't crack it. We know that someone
16:29
Speaker 2: else is giving him the information. That is not exculpatory.
16:34
Speaker 2: Still a crime.
16:44
Speaker 1: We were also reminded this weekend that the Trump family's
16:46
Speaker 1: corruption extends well beyond stealing elections. The New York Times
16:49
Speaker 1: reports that six months after leaving the White House, our
16:52
Speaker 1: old pal Jared Kushner got himself a $ 2 billion investment
16:56
Speaker 1: from the Saudi royal family's sovereign wealth fund. Despite objections
16:59
Speaker 1: from the fund's advisors, they were ultimately then overruled by
17:04
Speaker 1: Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman himself. Tommy. Jared Kushner, Saudi Arabia.
17:10
Speaker 1: This story is just right in your wheelhouse. You want
17:13
Speaker 1: to talk about why this might present a bit of
17:15
Speaker 1: an ethical issue?
17:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just want to walk everybody through this for
17:19
Speaker 3: one second. So remember that Jared Kushner got to the
17:23
Speaker 3: White House and decided that he was going to become
17:25
Speaker 3: the shadow secretary of state, despite having no experience doing
17:28
Speaker 3: anything in foreign policy or really anything else in life.
17:31
Speaker 3: He had a failed real estate business and a failed magazine.
17:33
Speaker 2: The Saudis.
17:34
Speaker 1: It's.
17:35
Speaker 3: Been reported extensively, a cultivated relationship with Jared before Trump
17:38
Speaker 3: even took office because they knew he was fucking clueless
17:41
Speaker 3: and he was transactional. There are leaked Saudi internal documents
17:45
Speaker 3: that talk about this. So Jared becomes buddies with Mohammed
17:49
Speaker 3: bin Salman, currently the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, but
17:51
Speaker 3: he wasn't then. And they were reportedly like WhatsAppping each other,
17:55
Speaker 3: calling each other. They were thick as thieves. And Jared
17:57
Speaker 3: wouldn't report out any of this to the State Department
18:00
Speaker 3: or the NSC. And Jared even helped Mohammed bin Salman
18:03
Speaker 3: get elevated in the Saudi system. He got him a
18:06
Speaker 3: lunch with Trump. He treated him like a head of
18:08
Speaker 3: state when he wasn't. And then in 2018, when the
18:11
Speaker 3: Saudi government was caught dead to rights for ordering the
18:14
Speaker 3: murder and dismemberment of a journalist named Jamal Khashoggi in
18:17
Speaker 3: their Saudi consulate in Turkey, Jared helped MBS deflect blame,
18:22
Speaker 3: even though he clearly ordered the assassination. So Trump at
18:26
Speaker 3: the time even put out a statement that smeared Jamal
18:28
Speaker 3: Khashoggi after he had been murdered by the Saudi government
18:32
Speaker 3: and defended the Saudis. So Jared was their guy in
18:36
Speaker 3: the White House. It was obvious for four straight years.
18:40
Speaker 3: And then Donald Trump himself went from attacking the Saudis
18:43
Speaker 3: before he got into office to doing everything they wanted,
18:46
Speaker 3: including shoving through billion-dollar arms sales to Saudi Arabia, even
18:51
Speaker 3: when Congress tried to block them. So then what happens?
18:54
Speaker 3: Six months after leaving the White House, Jared gets a
18:58
Speaker 3: $ 2 billion investment from a fund controlled by the Crown Prince.
19:03
Speaker 3: despite the fact that the fund's oversight board had huge
19:07
Speaker 3: issues with it. They cited his inexperience. They cited the
19:10
Speaker 3: fact that the kingdom would be responsible for the bulk
19:13
Speaker 3: of the investment into this fund. That due diligence on
19:16
Speaker 3: the firm's operations found them, quote, unsatisfactory in all aspects,
19:20
Speaker 3: that the fees were too high, that Jared Kushner created
19:24
Speaker 3: a public relations risk for the government of Saudi Arabia.
19:27
Speaker 3: Imagine that one hanging over your head.
19:30
Speaker 1: And.
19:31
Speaker 3: We also know that Mohammed bin Salman also gave a
19:34
Speaker 3: $ 1 billion investment to Steve Mnookin, the former treasury secretary,
19:37
Speaker 3: who actually knows what he's doing in this space. Jared
19:39
Speaker 3: Kushner has never worked in private equity. Again, he bought
19:42
Speaker 3: a building in Manhattan for $ 1. 8 billion right before the
19:45
Speaker 3: financial crisis and.
19:46
Speaker 2: Nearly ran his family- He lost money on New York
19:47
Speaker 2: real estate. Into the ground.
19:49
Speaker 3: But Mnookin's firm got a 1% management fee and Jared's
19:54
Speaker 3: firm got a 1.25% asset management fee. So that means
19:57
Speaker 3: Jared's making $ 25 million per year just by holding onto
20:00
Speaker 3: this 2 billion from the Saudis for nothing. This is
20:03
Speaker 3: the most brazen corruption I have ever seen in my life.
20:07
Speaker 3: $ 2 billion kickback for covering up a murder for a
20:12
Speaker 3: Saudi prince who is a homicidal maniac who chops up
20:15
Speaker 3: journalists with a bone saw. That's Jared Kushner.
20:18
Speaker 1: Smells fishy to me. I love it.
20:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, just the meeting when they're like, hey, we looked
20:23
Speaker 2: at these financials. They don't make any sense. He's a
20:25
Speaker 2: fucking moron who has no experience in this space. And also,
20:28
Speaker 2: we'd be the biggest money in this thing. We'd be
20:30
Speaker 2: taking all the risk. We don't really see why you
20:32
Speaker 2: want to do it. He's like, oh, it's a bribe.
20:34
Speaker 2: We got to do it. I said I would do it,
20:36
Speaker 2: so we got to do it. Hey, what do you
20:37
Speaker 2: guys want to do later? You guys want to ride
20:38
Speaker 2: around in Maybacks, maybe kill a couple of journalists?
20:41
Speaker 5: They are.
20:41
Speaker 3: By the way, Jared said he was going to raise
20:43
Speaker 3: $ 7 billion. So far, he's raised $ 2. 5 billion. Apparently, it's
20:47
Speaker 3: all from overseas. $ 2 billion of that is from the Saudis.
20:51
Speaker 3: Four years in the White House, Jared spent setting up
20:53
Speaker 3: this deal. That was the whole game.
20:55
Speaker 1: Un-fucking-real. And they're out there talking about fucking Hunter Biden.
20:58
Speaker 1: That's what they were talking about. Jared Kushner doing this.
21:00
Speaker 1: Don Jr. 's forwarding coup plans.
21:02
Speaker 2: I'm not a lawyer.
21:03
Speaker 1: Jared Kushner, you know.
21:05
Speaker 2: Look, we know that I'm not a lawyer.
21:07
Speaker 1: All right.
21:07
Speaker 2: That's something we all know. So I'd like, but I
21:09
Speaker 2: think there are lawyers, you know, they work for Merrick Garland.
21:12
Speaker 2: There's somebody looking at this. Maybe when Merrick Garland gets
21:15
Speaker 2: done delicately putting the final touches on the indictment, you know,
21:20
Speaker 2: puts the.
21:21
Speaker 1: He's writing it in calligraphy.
21:23
Speaker 2: Melts the wax and puts the feather in the wax
21:25
Speaker 2: and stamps it with the MG. Yeah, that's important. And
21:28
Speaker 2: then sends it off with a crow. When he finishes
21:30
Speaker 2: with that, take a look at this. Take a look
21:32
Speaker 2: at this. Active corruption.
21:35
Speaker 1: New York Times is just crushing it with these stories.
21:37
Speaker 1: They have the Kushner story.
21:39
Speaker 2: Look, the investigative section of New York Times is at war,
21:43
Speaker 2: is fighting to save our democracy from its op-ed page.
21:46
Speaker 2: That's the fucking situation.
21:50
Speaker 1: Now, you might think that all of this Trump family
21:52
Speaker 1: crime and corruption might send Republican leaders searching for a
21:55
Speaker 1: new standard bearer in 2024. But if Republican voters do
21:58
Speaker 1: nominate Trump again, the party will be right behind them.
22:01
Speaker 1: Here's Mitch McConnell's latest response. to Axios' Jonathan Swan's question
22:06
Speaker 1: about supporting Trump and drawing moral red lines.
22:10
Speaker 6: Help me understand this. I watched your speech last year
22:15
Speaker 6: in February on the Senate floor after the second impeachment
22:18
Speaker 6: vote on Donald Trump. And it was an extraordinary speech.
22:22
Speaker 6: You spoke very powerfully against the most powerful figure in
22:26
Speaker 6: your party, the president. And you said Donald Trump's actions
22:31
Speaker 6: preceding the January 6th insurrection were a quote, disgraceful dereliction
22:35
Speaker 6: of duty, and that he was practically and morally responsible,
22:40
Speaker 6: morally responsible, your words, for provoking the events of that day.
22:44
Speaker 6: How do you go from saying that to two weeks
22:49
Speaker 6: later saying you'd absolutely support Donald Trump if he's the
22:52
Speaker 6: Republican nominee in 2024?
22:54
Speaker 5: Well, as a Republican leader of the Senate, it should
22:57
Speaker 5: not be a front page headline that I will report.
22:59
Speaker 5: support the Republican nominee for president.
23:01
Speaker 6: After you've said that about him, I think it's astonishing.
23:04
Speaker 5: I think I have an obligation to support the nominee
23:07
Speaker 5: of my party. I'm sure you could find someone who could.
23:11
Speaker 6: So moral red lights, where do you draw them?
23:14
Speaker 5: I'm perfectly comfortable with the way I have conducted my
23:17
Speaker 5: political career. And, uh, I'd be happy to respond to
23:23
Speaker 5: any specificity you want to apply to the term. What
23:26
Speaker 5: was it?
23:27
Speaker 6: Moral red lines.
23:28
Speaker 5: Moral red line. Yeah. I'm very comfortable with my moral
23:33
Speaker 5: red line.
23:33
Speaker 1: Now there's someone who is not too concerned with political appearances.
23:38
Speaker 2: That's incredible. What a ridiculous question. I'll put the country
23:43
Speaker 2: after the party. I'll put the party before the country.
23:45
Speaker 2: What are we doing here?
23:46
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you just didn't say moral red lines. I
23:49
Speaker 1: do not have morality.
23:50
Speaker 2: I've never heard the term. It was just immorality. What
23:53
Speaker 2: is that?
23:55
Speaker 1: What?
23:56
Speaker 2: No.
23:58
Speaker 6: He hates me.
23:58
Speaker 2: He says he wants me to be removed from office,
24:01
Speaker 2: but then I'll support him because I don't care. I
24:02
Speaker 2: don't have any ego in this. I'm a shameless creature.
24:07
Speaker 1: Tommy, do you have anything to say about this? I
24:09
Speaker 1: just wanted to play that clip. That's really why I
24:11
Speaker 1: just wanted to bring this story up. That was crazy.
24:15
Speaker 3: Shout out to Jonathan Swan for doing a great interview.
24:19
Speaker 5: Yes.
24:19
Speaker 3: The brilliant part of the interview- was getting that creep
24:24
Speaker 3: on a stage where he couldn't just walk away. And
24:26
Speaker 3: you could repeat your question at him and ask him
24:28
Speaker 3: over and over and do follow-ups. I do want to
24:32
Speaker 3: say to the American media, shame on you. We had
24:35
Speaker 3: to import an Australian man to ask our lawmakers tough questions.
24:39
Speaker 3: Shame on you.
24:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's taking jobs that Americans used to do. Can
24:43
Speaker 2: we get a Southern accent ripping Mitch McConnell a new asshole?
24:46
Speaker 1: What about a Boston accent?
24:48
Speaker 2: I love Jonathan Tyler. He is fantastic in this interview.
24:51
Speaker 2: And you know what else? What else is amazing about it?
24:53
Speaker 2: And it's like, it's not like you look at the
24:55
Speaker 2: questions Biden gets in these fucking briefings. They're like, Mr. Biden,
24:58
Speaker 2: don't you regret everything? And he's like, actually, no, I'm
25:03
Speaker 2: proud of my record. And this is more like, hey,
25:06
Speaker 2: I actually am concerned about this. Help me understand. You know,
25:09
Speaker 2: and he gave him enough rope to hang himself.
25:11
Speaker 1: Unlike Mike Pence. The interviewers that have always gotten Trump
25:18
Speaker 1: or have done the best job are the ones who
25:20
Speaker 1: throw away the rest of the questions, stay on the
25:23
Speaker 1: one topic. And when they dodge, you just keep going
25:25
Speaker 1: back to it and you go back to go back
25:27
Speaker 1: to it. Doesn't matter if you had a bunch of
25:29
Speaker 1: other topics. Who cares? You got them dead to rights
25:32
Speaker 1: on this one thing. Keep at it. Extraordinary.
25:35
Speaker 7: Make news.
25:36
Speaker 2: Way to go, Tom and Swan. Way to go.
25:38
Speaker 1: But yeah, anyway, Democrats, that's what Mitch McConnell does when
25:41
Speaker 1: you try to ask about political appearances. He's like, I
25:45
Speaker 1: don't fucking care. I'm trying to win. Swan also asked
25:47
Speaker 1: him at one point, like, you know, will you be holding,
25:51
Speaker 1: if the Republicans take the Senate and there's another Supreme
25:53
Speaker 1: Court opening and Joe Biden's president, will you hold a hearing?
25:57
Speaker 1: And McConnell goes, I won't be answering that question. This
26:00
Speaker 1: one's like, what do you mean you won't be? He goes,
26:02
Speaker 1: I won't be answering that question.
26:03
Speaker 3: Next.
26:05
Speaker 2: That's it.
26:05
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, his contempt for the press and for voters, it's just,
26:08
Speaker 3: it's endless. It's boundless contempt for all of us.
26:10
Speaker 4: Bottomless.
26:11
Speaker 2: And I just think like Democrats in a room somewhere
26:13
Speaker 2: being like, wait, if we see it just the right way,
26:15
Speaker 2: we'll have legitimacy.
26:16
Speaker 1: Oh no, the appearance of politics.
26:18
Speaker 2: We can't allow this.
26:19
Speaker 1: The 1-6 committee might be tainted by politics. It's fucking
26:22
Speaker 1: run by Liz Cheney. What are you doing?
26:25
Speaker 2: If we get the words exactly right, we'll sneak it
26:29
Speaker 2: through and the Fox News won't see it. They won't
26:31
Speaker 2: notice it.
26:31
Speaker 1: Send the fucking referral, people. Send the referral. All right.
26:34
Speaker 1: When we come back, we will talk to The Atlantic's
26:37
Speaker 1: Mark Leibovich about his new book.
26:39
Speaker 2: Thank you for your servitude.
26:40
Speaker 1: Thank you for your servitude.
26:51
Speaker 6: All right.
26:52
Speaker 1: Since we're back in our nation's capital for the first
26:53
Speaker 1: time in a few years, we thought we'd find out
26:55
Speaker 1: what's been going on from the man who quite literally
26:57
Speaker 1: wrote the book on Washington, D.C.
26:59
Speaker 2: He's the Doyen of this town. The Eminence Grease of
27:03
Speaker 2: the gridiron.
27:04
Speaker 1: The New York Times bestseller, This Town. He has a
27:06
Speaker 1: new book coming out this July about D.C. 's Trump
27:09
Speaker 1: years called Thank You for Your Servitude and a new
27:11
Speaker 1: job writing for The Atlantic. Welcome back to the pod,
27:14
Speaker 1: Mark Leibovich.
27:16
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me, guys. I'm uniquely positioned to
27:19
Speaker 7: tell you exactly what's been going on in Washington since
27:21
Speaker 7: I've been working from home like every single other person
27:24
Speaker 7: in Washington for the last two plus years. No, I'm out.
27:27
Speaker 1: But you've been on Zooms with everyone.
27:29
Speaker 7: No, I'm totally ready to Zoom with everyone. No, I know.
27:31
Speaker 2: You have your weekly Zoom with Tammy and Ed.
27:33
Speaker 7: We do. We get together. It's a private thing, like
27:36
Speaker 7: kind of with the cousins and everything.
27:38
Speaker 1: So you wrote this town in Obama's second term about
27:42
Speaker 1: how greedy and incestuous Washington had become. What changed during
27:46
Speaker 1: the Trump years?
27:48
Speaker 7: Well, in retrospect, this town sort of reads like a
27:50
Speaker 7: comedy of manners, right? I mean, isn't it funny that so-and-so,
27:55
Speaker 7: this Democrat and this Republican are lobbying together after leaving
27:59
Speaker 7: the Senate, and people go to parties and stuff? You know,
28:04
Speaker 7: Donald Trump campaigned on draining the swamp, and this is
28:08
Speaker 7: sort of a book about well, first of all, I
28:11
Speaker 7: think this town, I guess if I'm being self-congratulatory in
28:14
Speaker 7: some way or whatever, I mean, I think this town
28:16
Speaker 7: was kind of a book about the swamp that people
28:20
Speaker 7: might've run against. I don't know if it was Trump
28:22
Speaker 7: or whoever, but Donald Trump perfected the swamp. I mean,
28:25
Speaker 7: he turned it into a gold plated hot tub. I mean,
28:28
Speaker 7: everything that every swampy thing you would ever imagine about
28:32
Speaker 7: Washington came true, um, till the millionth extent under Donald Trump. And,
28:39
Speaker 7: you know, Lobbying thrived. Pardons thrived. Cronyism thrived. I mean,
28:45
Speaker 7: anything you could imagine happened under the Trump banner.
28:49
Speaker 2: This town was, as you said, it was like a
28:51
Speaker 2: comedy of manners about how people contort themselves to get
28:54
Speaker 2: in the good graces of powerful people. But then a
28:58
Speaker 2: lot of those same kind of games were played over
29:00
Speaker 2: the last five years. But these are contortions over issues
29:04
Speaker 2: like sabotaging our elections, breaking the law, abject corruption. Were
29:11
Speaker 2: you surprised by how easily certain people were able to
29:14
Speaker 2: adapt to this new reality by playing the same kind
29:19
Speaker 2: of DC games?
29:20
Speaker 6: Yes.
29:21
Speaker 7: I mean, look, this was I mean, this time was
29:23
Speaker 7: a much more bipartisan book. There was a pox on
29:27
Speaker 7: both your houses vibe to it. The media being one
29:30
Speaker 7: of the houses. I mean, everyone kind of got it.
29:34
Speaker 7: And the comedy of manners was you know, maybe a
29:36
Speaker 7: little gentle in retrospect, maybe a little harsh in retrospect.
29:41
Speaker 7: You know, I tried to hit the right balance. I
29:42
Speaker 7: didn't always succeed. But essentially, it was about the singular
29:46
Speaker 7: and a bipartisan feudal culture of Washington, D.C. This is
29:51
Speaker 7: a much more frankly, Republican book because the people who
29:56
Speaker 7: allowed Donald Trump to happen, Donald Trump to get elected,
29:58
Speaker 7: Donald Trump to thrive, Donald Trump to be rehabilitated over
30:02
Speaker 7: and over and over again and continue to be the
30:05
Speaker 7: most potent force in the Republican Party are largely Republicans.
30:10
Speaker 7: They're Kevin McCarthy. They're Lindsey Graham. They're Ron DeSantis. They're
30:14
Speaker 7: Fox News. And this is the view from the Trump Hotel.
30:18
Speaker 7: I'm not trying to out Bob Woodward or out Maggie
30:22
Speaker 7: Haberman these great journalists on White House intrigue, or I'm
30:27
Speaker 7: not trying to out-psychoanalyze Trump any more than the psychoanalysts
30:31
Speaker 7: who wrote cover stories for all kinds of magazines about that.
30:35
Speaker 7: I write about the culture of enablement, if you'd call
30:40
Speaker 7: it that, within the Republican Party that came to define
30:44
Speaker 7: not only the party, but came to define a big
30:46
Speaker 7: part of Washington and prop up a very dangerous presidency.
30:50
Speaker 1: Of all the Republicans who ultimately bent the knee to
30:54
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, who surprised you the most?
30:59
Speaker 7: That's a great question. I mean, it was a large,
31:02
Speaker 7: it was a lot of people. I mean, first of all,
31:04
Speaker 7: start with the people who ran against him. I mean,
31:06
Speaker 7: remember some of the absolutely catastrophic rhetoric that Lindsey Graham,
31:09
Speaker 7: that Marco Rubio, that Ted Cruz, Chris Christie even, I mean,
31:13
Speaker 7: less so, but they all hurled at him. I mean,
31:16
Speaker 7: these were things where, I mean, there was a moment,
31:17
Speaker 7: I think maybe in March or April where Cruz, Rubio, Trump,
31:22
Speaker 7: and Kasich were left and they were on the debate
31:25
Speaker 7: stage and it was high dungeon. It was, you are
31:28
Speaker 7: the most corrupt person I have ever seen, Donald Trump.
31:30
Speaker 7: I mean, the nuclear codes, you are the most morally
31:34
Speaker 7: hideous person. I mean, like hyperbole, there's so far beyond
31:39
Speaker 7: what you hear, even in a vicious debate that we
31:42
Speaker 7: are used to. And then the last question, I don't
31:44
Speaker 7: remember who the moderator was. It might've been Chris Wallace,
31:47
Speaker 7: but well, having heard what we've heard tonight, will you
31:51
Speaker 7: all support the nominee of the Republican Party, even if
31:54
Speaker 7: it is Donald Trump? Raise your hand. And then Rubio, Kasich, Cruz, immediately. Trump,
32:03
Speaker 7: I don't think, I think Trump, the question didn't apply
32:05
Speaker 7: to Trump because he is Trump. But essentially it was like, oh, okay. Now, yes,
32:11
Speaker 7: this might sound a little different. This might sound a
32:13
Speaker 7: little more extreme, but we're basically playing the same game.
32:16
Speaker 7: Whether Trump cares or not, Like, they need to, like,
32:19
Speaker 7: think about their viability once Trump loses in 2016, which
32:22
Speaker 7: they all fully expect will happen. They might run a
32:24
Speaker 7: run again. You know, Rubio has announced that he's done
32:27
Speaker 7: with the Senate. He's sick of it. He's done with it.
32:30
Speaker 7: He drops out. He's dispirited. He is almost in tears
32:33
Speaker 7: that he lowered himself to making dick jokes about the president.
32:37
Speaker 7: And that's why he's leaving the Senate. And, like, there
32:39
Speaker 7: are all these pieces, all these blind quotes with the staff.
32:42
Speaker 7: I've never seen him more miserable in his life. He
32:44
Speaker 7: can't wait to leave. And, you know— We know how
32:46
Speaker 7: the story ends.
32:47
Speaker 1: But it didn't just happen in 16 either. It happened
32:50
Speaker 1: after the insurrection. You spent some time with Kevin McCarthy for,
32:56
Speaker 1: I think, a Times piece in April of 21. What
33:00
Speaker 1: do you make of that guy? What's going on with
33:04
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy?
33:04
Speaker 7: Kevin McCarthy wants to be Speaker of the House.
33:06
Speaker 1: That's it, right?
33:06
Speaker 7: That's just all he— That is the holy grail. And look,
33:11
Speaker 7: it's this town as it gets. A person wants a job,
33:13
Speaker 7: willing to do whatever it takes to get it. Um, the, the,
33:18
Speaker 7: the central dynamic underwriting this entire book is people who
33:24
Speaker 7: know better, who get the joke, who speak one way
33:27
Speaker 7: in private about Donald Trump, who then go on stage
33:31
Speaker 7: or speak publicly or do press conferences about how Donald
33:34
Speaker 7: Trump is the most powerful figure and we revere him
33:37
Speaker 7: and he's the best president ever. And he should go
33:39
Speaker 7: on Mount Rushmore and he should win a Nobel priest prize.
33:42
Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, these are things that, President Donald Trump
33:44
Speaker 7: literally cared about and people literally went out and said,
33:48
Speaker 7: and Lindsey Graham, who, you know, is a central figure
33:52
Speaker 7: in this book. And in these years, I think from
33:54
Speaker 7: a psychological standpoint, from a political standpoint, from a policy standpoint,
33:59
Speaker 7: from a character standpoint, right. Who would like, you know,
34:03
Speaker 7: literally weeping his way through John McCain's memorial services and
34:07
Speaker 7: then is on the golf course with Donald Trump, you know,
34:11
Speaker 7: within weeks of this. um, you know, he is, he
34:16
Speaker 7: will go on the golf course and he knew all
34:17
Speaker 7: of Trump's erogenous zones. He'd say, thank God for reversing
34:21
Speaker 7: Barack Obama's terrible tragedy. And, you know, and then he.
34:25
Speaker 1: Told me, just say this to Trump, like privately.
34:27
Speaker 4: Yeah.
34:27
Speaker 7: But then he'd tell me, he'd say, you gotta be
34:29
Speaker 7: deft about this. And this is on the record. He'd say,
34:31
Speaker 7: you know, Obama drives him crazy. And so you can't
34:34
Speaker 7: praise him too much because then he'll lose respect for you. And,
34:38
Speaker 7: You know, there was an interview I did with him.
34:40
Speaker 7: Parts of this were in the Times Magazine in, I guess, 2018, 2019.
34:45
Speaker 7: But this was a fuller readout of it in which he, yeah,
34:49
Speaker 7: I mean, he basically just sat down and told me
34:50
Speaker 7: how he was playing the game. He was in South
34:52
Speaker 7: Carolina one day giving a speech to a Republican club
34:57
Speaker 7: somewhere around Greenville. And he was saying, you know, it
35:00
Speaker 7: was after the Kavanaugh thing. He said, they hate us.
35:02
Speaker 7: They hate our way of life. They hate you. They
35:05
Speaker 7: hate us. And literally the next day was up in Washington.
35:08
Speaker 7: I think it was either around the State of the
35:10
Speaker 7: Union or Trump was doing some joint session speech. And,
35:14
Speaker 7: you know, he knew that I got the joke. He
35:16
Speaker 7: knew that his colleagues got the joke. He knew that
35:18
Speaker 7: the people in the hallways got the joke. And this
35:22
Speaker 7: book is about the joke. This book is about the
35:25
Speaker 7: space between what Republicans in Washington, by and large in Washington,
35:29
Speaker 7: there are some elsewhere, how they know better and what
35:32
Speaker 7: they do and what they were willing to do and
35:34
Speaker 7: what they didn't do.
35:35
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I think I think certainly at the beginning
35:37
Speaker 2: of the Trump era, there was more of a conversation
35:39
Speaker 2: about character. Who would show character in this moment? I
35:42
Speaker 2: think it's actually mattered less because so few did. And
35:45
Speaker 2: now the conversation has been more about how do we
35:47
Speaker 2: change the incentives to make all of these craven and
35:50
Speaker 2: despicable and ambitious people act in a more civilized way?
35:54
Speaker 2: But I actually do want to ask you about character
35:56
Speaker 2: because you have spent so much time with these people
35:59
Speaker 2: on the spectrum of complicity, whatever it might be. And
36:03
Speaker 2: if you would have said to us... six, seven years ago, hey,
36:06
Speaker 2: I got a list of the only people that are
36:08
Speaker 2: going to stand up against fascism in America. It's Liz Cheney,
36:11
Speaker 2: Bill Kristol, and Mitt Romney. I'd be like, what? That's
36:14
Speaker 2: a surprising group of people. I do think we spend
36:17
Speaker 2: a little bit too much time psychologizing some of these people,
36:20
Speaker 2: but I am still interested in what made certain people
36:25
Speaker 2: refuse to go along and certain people not. And I'm
36:27
Speaker 2: curious what you've found.
36:29
Speaker 7: Okay. First of all, everyone you just mentioned... Crystal, not really,
36:33
Speaker 7: but certainly Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney were big parts
36:37
Speaker 7: of the book. I mean, I talked to them, spent
36:38
Speaker 7: a fair amount of time with both of them. And,
36:41
Speaker 7: you know, on the question of character, one thing the
36:44
Speaker 7: two of them have in common, and then another group
36:48
Speaker 7: like John McCain, Larry Hogan, the governor of Maryland, they
36:53
Speaker 7: all have family legacies. Liz's dad, you know, Liz's dad,
36:59
Speaker 7: say what you will about Dick Cheney. I mean, he's
37:00
Speaker 7: a historian. Liz is a historian. She worked in the
37:04
Speaker 7: Middle East in developing democracies. Mitt Romney's father was, you know,
37:09
Speaker 7: a great personal cost to his political career. A real
37:13
Speaker 7: maverick Republican in the 60s when that was really hard
37:16
Speaker 7: around Vietnam, around civil rights. You know, Mitt Romney, his career,
37:21
Speaker 7: he thought, ended in 2012 as like the flipping Mormon,
37:25
Speaker 7: as he said in that Netflix documentary about himself, as
37:28
Speaker 7: someone who flip-flopped, who just was seen as opportunistic. And
37:32
Speaker 7: his Senate career gave him a chance to rewrite that
37:35
Speaker 7: ending a little bit. And, you know, I say what
37:37
Speaker 7: you will about Mitt Romney. I mean, he stood on principle.
37:40
Speaker 7: I think he made a difference. You know, Larry Hogan's
37:43
Speaker 7: father was also a maverick Republican during Watergate. He was
37:46
Speaker 7: the first Republican to vote against, to basically come out
37:49
Speaker 7: against Vietnam on that committee. And he lost his election
37:54
Speaker 7: in So there are a bunch. But John McCain's family legacy,
37:57
Speaker 7: and he's talked a lot about it. So I think
37:59
Speaker 7: that's one thing they have in common. Combat veterans like
38:01
Speaker 7: Adam Kinzinger, that's another.
38:03
Speaker 1: There's a bit of a redemption story to all of them, too.
38:07
Speaker 1: Maybe Liz Cheney thinking about her father, Mitt Romney thinking
38:10
Speaker 1: about his legacy after the 2012 election. There would be
38:12
Speaker 1: a little bit of that.
38:13
Speaker 2: There's something kind of upsetting about that as well, right?
38:16
Speaker 2: Because there's something about having the power of a name
38:18
Speaker 2: already behind you to give you the ability to tell
38:20
Speaker 2: the truth. And some of these people that are just
38:22
Speaker 2: coming up being afraid to be squashed. by the Trump machine.
38:26
Speaker 7: Well, you know, it's funny. Congressman Raskin made that point
38:28
Speaker 7: last week when he was actually interviewing Liz Cheney. There
38:31
Speaker 7: was some kind of discussion around the one six committee.
38:34
Speaker 7: And he asked, he said, you know, he said, it's
38:36
Speaker 7: easy for you. You have, you know, you have a name,
38:39
Speaker 7: you have a legacy, you have money, presumably you can
38:42
Speaker 7: do this, you know, but like Mr. Backbencher from Ohio,
38:45
Speaker 7: he can't do it. He can, he just has to
38:47
Speaker 7: like go along in order to keep his job and
38:50
Speaker 7: what have you.
38:51
Speaker 6: Yeah.
38:51
Speaker 7: Maybe there's something to that. I mean, I, I, I,
38:54
Speaker 7: I am one of these people who believes that it's
38:57
Speaker 7: never too late to show character. I believe, you know,
39:00
Speaker 7: it drives me nuts when, you know, liberals say, oh,
39:04
Speaker 7: how can you even talk about Liz Cheney after what
39:06
Speaker 7: happened in Iraq, you know? Um, you know, Dick Cheney,
39:09
Speaker 7: you know, as a war criminal, you know, they go
39:11
Speaker 7: to the sort of the circa 20, there's like a.
39:14
Speaker 1: There's a snide, like liberals, new favorite hero, Liz Cheney.
39:17
Speaker 1: I'm like, Liz Cheney is not anyone's new favorite fucking hero.
39:21
Speaker 1: She just did something right. That's all you can say.
39:23
Speaker 1: You can like, I disagree with a ton of Liz
39:26
Speaker 1: Cheney's policies still.
39:27
Speaker 2: Even though he's not afraid to say it.
39:30
Speaker 1: Not afraid to say even though she did the right
39:32
Speaker 1: thing i still.
39:33
Speaker 7: I don't think we agree on anything i.
39:35
Speaker 1: Don't think she's like i don't she doesn't need to
39:36
Speaker 1: be my fucking hero she just did the right thing.
39:38
Speaker 2: Well it's also just sort of like i'm not looking
39:39
Speaker 2: for republicans to be democrats i'm really not looking to
39:42
Speaker 2: do anything at all but if there are a few
39:46
Speaker 2: who are able to see and be honest about what
39:48
Speaker 2: we're seeing. There's something to be learned from the fact
39:50
Speaker 2: that these people were able to reject or repel the forces,
39:55
Speaker 2: the pressures that are on all of these Republicans, to
39:57
Speaker 2: which Paul Ryan fell to, to which Kevin McCarthy is
40:00
Speaker 2: always succumbing. It's... I think it would matter more if
40:04
Speaker 2: more of them were able to stand up.
40:06
Speaker 7: Oh, absolutely. I mean, someone's made this point. People have
40:09
Speaker 7: made this point repeatedly. I mean, is Donald Trump still
40:12
Speaker 7: so viable within the Republican Party, not to mention like
40:15
Speaker 7: a kingmaker within the Republican Party, because so many putative
40:19
Speaker 7: leaders in the party just waved the white flag and
40:21
Speaker 7: didn't bother, after 2016, didn't bother to even combat him
40:27
Speaker 7: at all?
40:28
Speaker 2: Or is.
40:29
Speaker 7: You know, it's a chicken and egg question, right? But,
40:32
Speaker 7: I mean, Liz Cheney has lost, I mean, you know,
40:34
Speaker 7: she's a pariah in that party. I mean, I went
40:36
Speaker 7: out to Wyoming, I guess, last summer, maybe a summer ago.
40:40
Speaker 7: I mean, her security detail, I mean, remember the secure
40:43
Speaker 7: undisclosed location that Dick Cheney used to hang out in?
40:45
Speaker 7: It was kind of a joke. It's like, you know,
40:47
Speaker 7: after 9-11, you just don't know where he is. She
40:50
Speaker 7: pretty close to has a secure undisclosed location out when
40:53
Speaker 7: she's in Wyoming. Like, she was home for a week.
40:56
Speaker 7: It was a district visit. Her public appearances were not publicized.
41:00
Speaker 7: Her secure undisclosed location when I visited with her was
41:04
Speaker 7: in the Dick Cheney Federal Building in Casper. And to
41:07
Speaker 7: get in there was like getting into a prison. I mean,
41:09
Speaker 7: it was like there were lined, I mean, checkpoints and
41:11
Speaker 7: metal detectors and pat-downs and people lining the hallways. And,
41:16
Speaker 7: you know, she's, you know, threats are through the roof
41:20
Speaker 7: on her. I mean, her security team is large. I mean,
41:24
Speaker 7: it's stunning what's happened there. To someone like that. But also,
41:27
Speaker 7: I mean, look, I will always be inspired by character,
41:31
Speaker 7: you know, no matter what the background is. And, you know,
41:36
Speaker 7: even if it's the bare minimum, like, look, Mike Pence
41:38
Speaker 7: did the bare minimum. Bill Barr maybe did the bare minimum.
41:43
Speaker 7: Brad Raff. I mean, whatever. We talked about this earlier.
41:45
Speaker 6: Yeah.
41:46
Speaker 2: I put Rathensberger in a different category.
41:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Bill Barr, I don't even know. The bear is... Right.
41:53
Speaker 1: He was pretty ready to go along right at the
41:54
Speaker 1: end there.
41:55
Speaker 2: Well, Bill Barr goes into the example of you don't
41:57
Speaker 2: get points for removing a nail you put into the
42:00
Speaker 2: side of the barn, you know?
42:02
Speaker 7: You know, yeah. It's all there. But look, I mean,
42:08
Speaker 7: character matters. I mean, I think we're in agreement on this.
42:11
Speaker 7: And this is a dereliction of character across the board.
42:14
Speaker 1: Here's a non-Trump Republican question that's really important. Do you
42:19
Speaker 1: think it was more annoying to get COVID from the
42:22
Speaker 1: gridiron or to be at the gridiron?
42:25
Speaker 7: I mean, I can't imagine. I mean, I didn't do either.
42:28
Speaker 7: I did not. I mean, I didn't go to the gridiron,
42:31
Speaker 7: therefore I couldn't get COVID.
42:32
Speaker 2: Sort of hesitated.
42:34
Speaker 7: No, I did not.
42:35
Speaker 1: Well, he's been in the studio with us in a
42:38
Speaker 1: closed space for an hour now.
42:40
Speaker 7: I recently.
42:42
Speaker 7: Left the New York times after 16 years. And, um,
42:45
Speaker 7: you know, we were banned from these dinners. Like there
42:47
Speaker 7: was a Dean back. Hey, he said, you know, no
42:48
Speaker 7: more course. And you guys are, you guys are above that.
42:50
Speaker 7: We're total. Well, your Twitter policies and you're not a,
42:54
Speaker 7: you're not attending. I will say this. I agreed with
42:57
Speaker 7: that policy. I loved not going to the white house
42:59
Speaker 7: correspondence dinner. I would go to after parties.
43:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, we love seeing you at the after parties.
43:03
Speaker 7: No, the after parties were great. They were. And also,
43:06
Speaker 7: in fairness, you know, in the correspondence dinners I go
43:09
Speaker 7: to before, I got a lot of work done. Like,
43:10
Speaker 7: you know, you meet people, you see people you wouldn't
43:12
Speaker 7: see otherwise, blah, blah, blah. But I didn't go to
43:14
Speaker 7: the Great Iron. I guess technically I could have, but
43:16
Speaker 7: I'm not a member of the Great Iron. I've never
43:17
Speaker 7: been to the Great Iron.
43:18
Speaker 5: I haven't either.
43:19
Speaker 7: Because I'm so pure and above it all. I've always
43:21
Speaker 7: been above it all. You know this.
43:22
Speaker 4: Of course.
43:23
Speaker 2: Do you regret your attacks on the White House Correspondence
43:25
Speaker 2: Dinner given how terrible the situation became for the country
43:28
Speaker 2: after it was canceled?
43:30
Speaker 7: You know, in retrospect, I do. Think about it. Maybe
43:33
Speaker 7: if Donald Trump could have, you know, joked with the
43:36
Speaker 7: media and like we could have all like raised a
43:38
Speaker 7: toast to the First Amendment, everything would have been better.
43:41
Speaker 2: It's worth thinking about.
43:42
Speaker 7: Because, you know, the toast actually, I guess the formal
43:44
Speaker 7: toast of the Correspondents' Dinner is, ladies and gentlemen, let's
43:47
Speaker 7: raise a glass to the President of the United States.
43:51
Speaker 7: And we did. And it was like such a reverential moment.
43:53
Speaker 7: It always sucked.
43:54
Speaker 1: Last question. what are you going to be writing about
43:57
Speaker 1: at the Atlantic? It's been, I know you started April 1st,
44:00
Speaker 1: April 11th. I've been waiting for a Leibovich piece.
44:02
Speaker 7: Uh, it'll be, it won't be long. I mean, I have,
44:04
Speaker 7: I've been onboarding, I've been signing up for things. I've
44:07
Speaker 7: been learning policies and everything where, you know, we're sort.
44:09
Speaker 2: Of, how's the health plan?
44:11
Speaker 7: Uh, I picked one today. Um, I don't know yet.
44:14
Speaker 7: I guess I'll let you know. No, I'm going to
44:16
Speaker 7: be doing covering politics. I'm going to be covering some sports,
44:19
Speaker 7: some Hollywood. Um, I'd love the magazine. I missed magazine writing. Um,
44:23
Speaker 7: You know, loved the New York Times, but decided I
44:25
Speaker 7: needed a change, and here I am.
44:27
Speaker 1: And the book is Thank You for Your Servitude, and
44:30
Speaker 1: it's out July.
44:31
Speaker 7: 1st, I believe? Well, it's available for pre-order now on Amazon.
44:35
Speaker 7: Thank You for Your Servitude. It is– the subtitle is
44:39
Speaker 7: Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission. You want
44:42
Speaker 7: to give us the pre-sales?
44:44
Speaker 2: You want to give us one little fact, something that
44:45
Speaker 2: hasn't been out there yet? Some little bit of news.
44:47
Speaker 2: Want to goose these numbers? Want to get this thing
44:48
Speaker 2: off the charts?
44:48
Speaker 7: No, it's just an awesome romp of a book. No,
44:51
Speaker 7: I'm not going to do the thing.
44:52
Speaker 1: Something lined up at the top of a playbook, maybe?
44:54
Speaker 7: Give us a little something, huh? There is tension between
44:55
Speaker 7: Nancy Pelosi and, no. Let's see. No, I'm not going
45:01
Speaker 7: to play that game. I'm above it. No, it's a
45:03
Speaker 7: great book. If you like this town, you'll like this,
45:04
Speaker 7: and it's even funnier.
45:05
Speaker 2: It seems like you were close. One little thing.
45:07
Speaker 5: What?
45:07
Speaker 2: Just give us a little nugget. Give us a little
45:10
Speaker 2: punch bowl.
45:10
Speaker 7: Come on.
45:12
Speaker 2: Just put a little juice in our punch bowl.
45:14
Speaker 7: A little juice in your punch bowl. You know... Come on. No,
45:18
Speaker 7: I'm not playing this game. I could. Let's see. There
45:20
Speaker 7: was a... No, I'm not playing.
45:23
Speaker 1: You talked to Paul Ryan? I did.
45:24
Speaker 7: I talked to Paul Ryan quite a bit, actually. What
45:26
Speaker 7: did he say?
45:27
Speaker 6: What?
45:27
Speaker 1: What did he say?
45:28
Speaker 7: There was a thing I... Paul Ryan was talking about, like,
45:31
Speaker 7: watching January 6th from home and just bursting into tears
45:36
Speaker 7: and just, like, seeing his old security detail, like, there and, like,
45:41
Speaker 7: not knowing what to do. Like, how did this happen?
45:43
Speaker 7: I didn't see it coming. And, you know, he was...
45:47
Speaker 7: He was, you know, it was very a human moment
45:49
Speaker 7: in describing this. And, you know, I did sort of wonder, like,
45:54
Speaker 7: did he wish he could have done more? I mean, look, he.
45:56
Speaker 1: And then the next day he went to that Fox
45:58
Speaker 1: News board meeting.
45:59
Speaker 7: Well, that was the other thing.
46:00
Speaker 5: Proceed.
46:00
Speaker 2: You could. I vote I.
46:03
Speaker 7: The Fox News thing.
46:04
Speaker 2: On his whole thing.
46:05
Speaker 7: Was like, that's the kind of lurking thing. Look, Paul
46:08
Speaker 7: Ryan's a complicated guy.
46:09
Speaker 4: He.
46:10
Speaker 2: I know he'd like to think he is.
46:12
Speaker 7: Well, no, I think that Paul Ryan, he left. He
46:15
Speaker 7: is not Kevin McCarthy. Whatever, maybe it's relative.
46:19
Speaker 1: No, it's true. When he was leaving, I remember Pfeiffer
46:22
Speaker 1: and I talked about this. I was like, Paul Ryan's
46:24
Speaker 1: going to leave. And as much as we dislike Paul Ryan,
46:26
Speaker 1: he's going to be replaced by someone who's even worse
46:28
Speaker 1: than Paul Ryan. And sure enough.
46:30
Speaker 7: Oh, you think McCarthy's bad?
46:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, way to the end.
46:33
Speaker 7: I mean, I'm serious.
46:34
Speaker 1: He's not going to last long either. Well, will he
46:36
Speaker 1: get to be speaker? No, I mean, who was it?
46:39
Speaker 7: There was another Republican. I forgot who it is, but
46:41
Speaker 7: he's named in the book. He said, I think he
46:43
Speaker 7: actually will be Speaker of the House, and it's going
46:45
Speaker 7: to be the most miserable existence you can imagine for him.
46:48
Speaker 7: He might last a year.
46:50
Speaker 1: That horror should come to pass.
46:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems almost like a curse by a witch, like,
46:54
Speaker 2: you will be Speaker of the House.
46:56
Speaker 7: Can you imagine being the Speaker of the House? I mean,
46:57
Speaker 7: first of all, the expectation level, I mean, he's expected
47:01
Speaker 7: to win by however many now, but.
47:05
Speaker 7: Yeah, it doesn't look like a fun job, but he
47:06
Speaker 7: wants the job. And he could probably get the Bakersfield
47:08
Speaker 7: Airport named after him if he gets to be speaker.
47:11
Speaker 7: I mean, Bill Thomas has a terminal named after him.
47:14
Speaker 1: That's it.
47:14
Speaker 7: Anyway, Bakersfield. That's what it's all about.
47:16
Speaker 1: That's what it's all about.
47:17
Speaker 7: It's all about Bakersfield.
47:18
Speaker 1: The book is Thank You for Your Servitude. Go pre-order
47:21
Speaker 1: it right now. Mark Leibovich, thanks for joining Pod Save America.
47:24
Speaker 7: Thank you, guys. You guys are awesome.
47:26
Speaker 1: We'll talk to you all. We have our show Thursday
47:28
Speaker 1: night at the Anthem, so there'll be no Thursday pod
47:31
Speaker 1: with Dan and I. There'll be the Thursday night show,
47:32
Speaker 1: and that'll be out Friday. And we'll talk to you
47:34
Speaker 1: all then. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
47:41
Speaker 1: The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is
47:45
Speaker 1: Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producer is Haley Muse, and Olivia
47:48
Speaker 1: Martinez is our associate producer. It's mixed and edited by
47:51
Speaker 1: Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineer the show.
47:55
Speaker 1: Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerard, Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz,
47:59
Speaker 1: Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
48:02
Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and
48:05
Speaker 1: Amelia Montufe. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
48:09
Speaker 1: slash crookedmedia.