Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / 107: Chris Smith, CRO at Aqua Security, on 7 steps to hiring great sales talent

Transcript

107: Chris Smith, CRO at Aqua Security, on 7 steps to hiring great sales talent · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate what you do.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to be here.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, looking forward to it.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: And today what we're going to be doing is talking about creating a great skills team as you're growing rapidly by being very intentional about bringing the right people onto the bus that could have done this before a different company to be doing it right now at that class.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: But before we get into it, I want to hear from you, the listeners.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: What questions or topics do you want us to cover on future episodes of the podcast?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: What's top of mind?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: What's burning that hole in your brain as you're trying to figure out how can I make this easier?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: How can I do this faster?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: How can I do this better?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can email me directly at andrew at unstuffable.do.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's unstuffable.do, deal.com.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or you can uh message me video audio at zipmessage.com forward slash unstuffable.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Simply go there and record something that's kind of easier like I do instead of having to type things out all the time.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So Chris, to get to know the real you, six questions to get to know you, 10 second answers is all you're allowed.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this is not the time to say it depends or I'm not sure or it's up for debate, right?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So four of them are either ors, and then two of them should be pretty quick as well.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Ready to go?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, dive bar or cocktail bar?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Cocktail.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sweet at the four seasons or cabin in the woods?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Cabin in the woods.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Trickta Jeep or German car with all the gadgets?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Both.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's not loud.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right, German car.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh beach or mountains.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Beach.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: They say that home is where the heart is.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Where is home for you?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Boston.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And how did you first make money as a kid?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Selling at a retail clothing store.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, what type of clothing?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was kind of a gap.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh it was the wannabe gap, uh, but the margins were higher, and I got the job and crushed it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Good for you.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you a quick story about that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I was at high school and we had job placements, right?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Go and learn about the work life, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think I was 15 years old and this is an Edinburgh in Scotland, and everyone in the year went different places.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I got selected to go to one of the department stores in in the UK called Debanum's.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And when I got there, my job on the first day was in the lingerie section of the Debonim's department store.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can you imagine a 15-year-old kid embarrassed, guy, and what am I doing?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, years later, right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: But it's terrible.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, let's go back to your LinkedIn profile.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So when I look at look at your profile, I think something selling for 30 years this year, right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: 92 was the first year you started selling.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: You really got yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me both.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: You first really got going though when you were at uh Mercury Interactive.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you started off there, went through Logic Staff at Mercury in 1998 through about 2005, you then went to ArcSight, and then from there, you've held sales leadership positions at three or four companies.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And these are well-known names in security and Vincia, uh Anomaly, SOFOS, ONAFTIS, and then for the last seven to nine months or so, you've been at Aqua Security.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: What is it about security or cybersecurity that attracts you?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: First, I'm gonna just admit it's just a way cooler conversation at a cocktail party.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just is.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what I love about it, I mean, you you kind of you're doing something that's meaningful, so there's that.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of intrigue around it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't hurt that the unemployment's been zero for the past 15 years in in high tech and in particular cybersecurity.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I it it's just it's just a lot more interesting than a lot of other technology to me personally.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, ever changing, right?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: People do latch onto the the hackerness of cybersecurity and all this sort of stuff, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than if you're saying, you know, web performance management, not quite so interesting, maybe.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not not a lot of movies made it about uh automated testing tools.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell us what Aqua does.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we're in a category called cloud native application protection platform that does not flow from the tongue super easily.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll say it backwards, it makes more sense that way.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're a platform that offers protection for applications and cloud native, and we are the only integrated platform that does that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of noise around vulnerability scanning.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: We started there.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um we we moved to protection because it is the hardest thing to do.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of noise around categorization reporting and compliance.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: We offer that as well.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: But we're the only integrated platform that offers all of that and protection.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you just net it out, if I was on a second elevator ride, I would say this we stop attacks at every level, we guarantee it.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Which is an area that's taken off like crazy right now, right?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the uh the entire transformation that's happening is about uh seven trillion dollars.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the cloud services as a derivative is about 805 billion.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, most of these containers that are being run, the it's it's Kubernetes like 90 plus percent.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think it just crossed 55 last year and it'll be 90 plus percent in two years.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and like many things over the years, the the rush to new technology has gone fast.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then the they being you know, the IT industry have kind of left security to catch up, it seems a little bit, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm just saying last year in the cloud security space there was a five$4.4 billion in financing.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's a hot area.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's number one, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's different segments of the market.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: More money is going into cloud security to fund successful.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I saw that a year ago basically I put a valuation of billions a year ago.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: I had a quick look at your website, felt that it's 30 open scales.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you are in uh in high growth mode right now, you're investing in sales.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I would imagine you're using your experience three or four times of four to get the scale done right because uh the sticks are up there, both in terms of the company, but also in terms of the right thing to do for security, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about what that means, how you're approaching hiring the right team for Aqua.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Many people, when they start off, they start looking at profiles of reps and making sure the the profile fits the profile of the company.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Is that where you're starting as well?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a couple things.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: The I have a fortunate situation, I haven't always had this, but uh the name brand Aqua, if you're looking in cloud native, is widely known.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I I hear so often, hey, I've been following your company when I'm on interviews, which is a great thing.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: But let's let me just uh kind of clear the table of that and go back to okay, what if they don't know about your brand and you're trying to compete in a hyper competitive market?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's presuppose that uh you know you've already looked into the market and the people and the product and you've determined this is the right company to be.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're there, and of course, there are expectations you're gonna bring some of the people that you've worked with in the past.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: However, there is a war on talent.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think we'd all agree that that's what's happening, zero unemployment.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it depends also when what time you're hiring those people, depending on your fiscal year and what when the what that period looks like.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're now up against the most um attractive packages out there, salaries, OTEs, variables, signing bonuses, all kinds of different things are surrounding even moderate to good talent, but that's not what you want.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: You want a talent, right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So so how do you differentiate?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think we in in sales have spent a lot of time figuring out how we differentiate our solutions, our products, our services, our companies, the business values, still need to do that even more.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: But how do we do that for the candidates that are looking to come and contribute to the success of the company?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I I started looking, I had I had done some of these, but I hadn't made it a concerted effort to do all of these things.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I started looking into it.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, first thing I need to do is I need to know, well, what am I going after?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Most people do this.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: The geography, the verticals, is this a velocity play?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is this an enterprise play?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are we, are we, what type of companies are we going to target?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Every company has a certain type of, oh, if we can just hire from that company type of thing, you know, how long does somebody need to have time on bike, which just means tenure and selling?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's enterprises, it's probably north of seven to nine years in that range.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a psychological aspect to it as well.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So again, this is all under the who you're going after, because if you're going after a target, you need to know what the target is, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I'm always looking for a blue-collar work ethic with a white-collar tongue.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what that means is somebody who consistently puts out, but someone who doesn't sound like they just got off of uh, you know, a production line somewhere and then didn't have any schooling and hasn't really had an interface and moving enterprise class products in the C-suite.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first thing.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Second thing is alignment to culture, and I'm gonna tell you, I have not always put uh a lot of emphasis on that, but everything's changed.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: People are leaving companies, and they what we call this the the mass exit or the mass resignation, forget what they call it, but um people are leaving and it's not money, like it's really strange to me because in the Gordon Gecko days, it was all about greed money.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you were making money, you weren't leaving, or if you saw your your path to a lot of money, you weren't leaving.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the case anymore.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So culture of fit becomes a really big factor to this.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the ways that I I make sure we are honest about the way the company is to candidates, because you want that fit, but you don't want the attrition, is that I I go six deep.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I bring them into HR marketing, the S the SEs or SA's, depending on what you call them, customer success, sales peers, and sales management.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm not trying to do is act like everything's perfect here.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: What I am trying to do is be very candid about what it's going to be like, the good and the bad, and what's going to be required.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Less attrition down the road.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to sell some people when they're a prospect and then they start first day, they're a customer, and they find all these bones buried in the backyard.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Number two.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Third thing is I like.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've talked to a number of folks, CRO position people, people holding CR positions, and it's what they all latch on to, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is that you know you can do the other things, but if there isn't alignment on culture, then you know Christian is high.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to really scale because things don't work well together.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: But it it it must be hard though, because what does that mean when you say hire to culture?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's how do you know, how do they know that there's alignment there?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: It gets into very soft and woolly things very quickly.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Any any thoughts about how you really get into that with people?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's actually part of uh another one of my uh kind of seven principles to hiring.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But first of all, do you know?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: What you're trying to do is take a lot of the uncertainty off the table.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and the best way to do that is to find out what somebody actually wants.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it typical questions I'll ask are, you know, what are your superpowers?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what is your business card if they even have those anymore?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: But your digital uh, you know, uh signature on your email, what's it gonna say, you know, 10 years from now?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that tells you kind of where they want to go.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then what motivates them to do what they do?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: If it's just money, it'll be short-lived.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Money is a is the leaf on the tree of success, but it's not the root.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's how we kind of measure if we're doing really good at whatever the mission is.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: But again, back to culture.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do they want a culture that is a you know, turn and burn culture?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think most people do, but there are certainly companies that offer that.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that they sell that coming in, but hey, that's your culture.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: You better hire to a person that's you know coming from that type of culture, likes it or or doesn't vehemently dislike it.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh another way is they're look, they're lifestyle companies.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're never gonna have an outcome, probably never gonna see any MA, you know, the founders are doing really well.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's great for the founders, but you know, if you have a highly motivated salesperson and they want to see an outcome, they're probably not gonna be happy long term.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can point to certain companies that have gone through a maturation in that in the industry.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of questions, but really it's not about, it's always about are you good enough for this position?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the people that I'm talking to in an enterprise class company, they've been doing it at least seven years.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're probably good enough, or they didn't make it to me from a conversation perspective.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Question is, is the challenges that they want and the opportunities they're seeking in alignment with what my protect uh my particular opportunity brings to bear.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I would imagine by letting them talk, you know, elsewhere in the organization, the that's gonna come out, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people someone in those six people is is gonna be more candid than the next person, and they might suddenly say, I connect better with the sales manager.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask them where the the body the bodies are buried, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And really get a sense of what's going on.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh it's amazing.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is yes, and it's why I do it, but it's amazing to me that most sales candidates, or just candidates in general, don't have that as a prerequisite.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, if you go six deep into a company, you get a flavor for what's really going on.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you ask it even mildly to good questions, and I'll tell you, I just made a really uh significant hire, and I I I asked this person, hey, what was the one turning point you where you recognized this was the best opportunity of all the opportunities you have in the table?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this person said, When I saw, I expected this person to say, Oh, when I talked with you, you're so brilliant.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I didn't get that at all.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: What I got was, I got was, hey, your HR person really kind of gave me a very good feel for the company.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And she's been there for years and kind of walked me through, you know, the uh the way business is driven.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that for me was it.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the HR piece is not to be overlooked, not even by a little bit.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, great point.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you're I cut you off before you're about to go on and talk about you know what goes around attracting people when they get engaged with you.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you think about it, we we do a lot of videos about you know our technology, and we we get them out there and we try to entice people to come to our website and to different shows and whatnot.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we do that with people that we're trying to hire?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of so good salespeople do their homework and try to anticipate what questions somebody would ask by putting themselves in their positions.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So what we do, and I think more companies could benefit from doing this, is what are the typical sales uh questions that are gonna come up?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Create a video that essentially answers those questions and don't just put that out there, but get that to your recruiters.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I do that, I've done that before.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I put together uh kind of pamphlets on why this is a great opportunity, juxtaposed to other opportunities out there, and I get that to recruiters.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: I make sure that my internal recruiting uh recruitment recruitment department is also trained on it, and then I also do the same with the different uh hiring sales managers.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's another piece to it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's kind of a pitch deck, if you will.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I would say is, and I was just touching on it, is to augment companies' searches with agencies.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a quote that I have used, and I know this quote pretty well because I've used it to justify this because there's a cost to it, and that is that there's nothing more expensive than a missed opportunity.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there's pushback because recruiting agencies are expensive.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're talking about$20,000 to$30,000 ahead.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, first I'll give you experience.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: As a CRO, even if I reach out to salespeople, I don't get the response that I would want.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason is because most CROs aren't reaching out to salespeople.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Salespeople have their relationships and they have for 10, 20 years with certain recruiters.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if those recruiters reach out and say this is a great opportunity, they'll listen.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: If the brand itself reaches out, it's it's kind of suspect, and there's a lot of noise out there.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think uh for me, I think you know, making a bet with a an agency uh that's outside the company is a really big deal.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So but you made a good point there.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: What I've seen is a lot of reluctance to approve using external recruiters at 20, 30k a pop, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um seemed to be very expensive, you know, beyond the it just makes sense.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Any other thoughts about how to get your CEO, CFO to kind of get that and approve it?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so first of all, I think, especially at high growth earlier stage companies, what they think is you're joining, so you're just gonna have an army of people to join.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there are so many extraneous things that back that up.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, if you're a CRO, you probably have a contract and you probably have some pretty big fences around just bringing in the crew from the last out that you were with.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's one.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Two, how do you know if if all the people are ready to join at that particular time?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's just there's just a lot that goes to that.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so one of the things that I do is first of all, I do that, I negotiate if we're gonna be able to use recruiters before I even start.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: The lifeblood of the company is people, and without the people, you know, you're just sitting there with the quota on the lot, so to speak, doing absolutely nothing.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So number one, I would negotiate up front.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, there are a lot of recruitment agencies now, very creative.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're not just$20,000 to$30,000 or, you know, they will acquiesce if the volume is there on what they'll take, right, as a percentage of a new hire.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's one thing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is they'll also take stock.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are not just about straight up cash.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of different ways to negotiate that.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing I would say is it feels like it's death by a thousand paper cuts if you are, in fact, spending$20,000 to$30,000 ahead and you're hiring out.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you rightfully mentioned that we're hiring out over 30 now.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: However, if you look at it, you're not going to do every head.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're probably going to do 30 to 40% of them through the outside recruitment agencies.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So now you really look at the math, you say, what are we talking about here?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: It usually comes to about half to maybe 60% of a field level assigned quota.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you really put it put it in perspective to the quota out there, it's it's never what it initially feels like, I think.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is right.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And do you do you offer an internal referral program as well, usually?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: We do.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's it's a good point.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I find these internal referral programs are are usually under-resourced, meaning they just don't pay enough.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I've seen in other organizations where they do, they're they're very rich, but nobody knows about it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a two-prong thing.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, train your internal people, tell them why you need them.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: If they like you from a leadership perspective, they're obviously gonna be more willing to refer you, and then tell them what this means.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not about, you know, especially people that are not in a sales role.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them have an allergic reaction to getting uh, you know, told that they're gonna make X amount of dollars by recruiting somebody.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a it's just a thank you for helping us scale and build the company.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, one one thing that I would tell you though, while we're talking about the recruiting of people, is I don't think a lot of people do a good job of preparing what I call the deep end questions.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is if you think about this, Andrew, if you're meeting somebody, how many how many hours does a person spend with the different people they're talking to before they say, I'm gonna spend the next three, four years of my life?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: We might be talking about five hours.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's incredible.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And how are you really supposed to get to know somebody in five hours?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So why call them the deep end question?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not, hey, what was your quota?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: How did you do what's your WT, like all that stuff?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't even need to talk to somebody to get that, right?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: You you can get that pre-qualified before you ever get to them.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's about how do you find out what's going on in the gray matter between their ears?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a signature on my email and it says W2P PTW.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: What it stands for is if you're willing to prepare, then you're playing to win.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, preparedness is uh is a big deal, and I prepare questions.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you some examples, I'll only give you a couple, and I'll tell you that one of them gets me the most amazing responses.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what's your superpower?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think probably a lot of people ask that.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: This next question is an interesting one, not because I'm the person that authored it, but because of the responses it has gotten me over the years.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have found tragedies, uh, you know, amazing things that they've done just by this question.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you not more successful than you are?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm quiet.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you not?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Not more successful than you are.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not you're not successful, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's why you're not more successful.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: What's so interesting about this, and I I purposefully ask it exactly like that every time why are you not more successful than you are?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just go quiet.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I get very comfortable in the uncomfortableness of silence because I really want to see what their first response is going to be.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and basically it comes down to three things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: One, what are you talking about?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really successful.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So first of all, they didn't really hear the question.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: They heard it as, you know, almost a question wrapped in an insult, which is not what it was.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then they go to tell me how they did this, this, and this.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I that's actually not a person that I'm after.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because in their mind, they've kind of peaked.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: They've got their hat hung on the rack, and and it's like they're probably not as wanting to do well in the next role.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they can, but they feel like they've already kind of made it.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not who I'm looking for.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: The second way is they explain away, well, you know, I I just really haven't had the opportunities that this, and look, we've all had bad breaks.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Every one of us, you don't get out of this game without bad breaks.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's where they initially go to, this is this is a person that I say has a chip on the shoulder, and they're always gonna come up with a reason why for bad things.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not it either.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm really looking for is someone that's self-aware, someone that's gonna say, hey, you know what?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: In the first half of my life, zero to 25 didn't do super well.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was after what whatever I was after, partying, this or that, didn't go to the great universities.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: One day I just woke up and I got it.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, this is what I'm doing now, and I'm really good at it, and I I can be better.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's the kind of person I'm looking for.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets back to this is a person that probably has a blue-collar work ethic with a white-collar tongue.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it and and in that deep end of the line of questioning is so critical to jump in somebody's head and run around for a little bit because you're really finding out what makes them tick, and and then you can go back to that alignment.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I really like that thoughtful way you ask it, because it it does tell you a lot, right, about how they think about things.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I think I'm the same with you, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: If if I want someone who's I've been pretty successful, but I can get better, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: I here's here's what here's where I want to go next, and things like that, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: If I had 20K to invest in my career, here's where I'd spend it and what I need to get better on.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the sort of answer I'd be looking for.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know what's strange to me is so I I was uh I interviewed a lot for a lot of different positions before I got here.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was a lot out there.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the uh it was a it was a venture capital firm and they were looking for a serial CRO.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what they I said, well, what are you looking for?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what they said they were looking for is somebody who already made their bones.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I intimated within that, but I said, What do you mean by that?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody who's already made a lot of money and you know they they they're happy, but you know, they want to come work.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, that wasn't super motivating.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And second of all, I said, Do you think that there is an achievement-based CRO out there that has arrived?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: There is no arrival for someone who's an A player.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no arrival, there is no end game.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and even if money was the barometer, which God forbid it should be, it's it's an ancillary benefit.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: But even if that was, then you start hanging around new people and you realize you're poor all over again.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: You there's just no arrival.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: That seems like a strange thing to look for, you know, for you know, when you really try to drive hard, find someone who's you know, fat and happy.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And once you did it again.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't disagree.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Don't disagree.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: I can think of people who are fat and happy that I probably wouldn't want to have it a role like that.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because they don't have the drive, right?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: For this is not easy.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is hard work.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And Andrew, I'll tell you another thing, too.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is more, I'm stepping away from just kind of your your individual contributor hires, which are the lifeblood of company.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not talking about your VP hires.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is completely ripped off from Jack Welch.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: He would never make a hire unless he was sitting down with the significant other of the uh the person that he's hiring.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I there was and then I worked for somebody else that always said, if I haven't had at least a glass of wine and look deep into their eyes and not hiring them.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was a trust thing.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some people uh don't have wine, so but maybe you look deep in their eyes, I don't know.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're scaring them.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is, you're never gonna find out more about somebody until you take them to dinner and you sit down for two to three hours and you look, how do they interact with a significant other?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is there respect there?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are they always talking over them?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a mutual respect?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the the thought from my perspective is and look, life is brutal, so there's no judgment here, but you know, if you're gonna run a very large business, you probably need to have some pretty good interpersonal skills and be able to balance the challenges that you're gonna face in in that business line or business in general, and it's not so different from what you manage at home and sometimes how the home manages you.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it's you know, th it there's a give and take there, and I think there's a maturity that's required in senior level uh positions that you can really tell how the interpersonal uh maturations uh are for somebody.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and nothing like dinner and wine to to pull that out.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And would you do that in all parts of the world?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're hiring the year ahead of Europe, would you go head over there and and do that over there?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: I would, especially in Europe.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you know, if you're not uh if you're not here, you know, it's really hard with the different times.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: EMIA, not so much, but APAC, it becomes hard with the different time zones.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you really need to, you need to, it is a job to make sure that you stay connected.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking email and text that's not connected, to make sure you have that deep uh connective tissue in the relationship.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I absolutely would.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, by the way, the significant other then buys into the company, and that you know, it it be you don't do it for this reason, but it becomes a reason you are highly differentiated versus other folks out there.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, they took the time to get to know me.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: This must be a company that deeply cares about.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if the company wants to succeed and they don't want the traditional 15 plus percent attrition, which costs you way more than you can imagine, they should take it seriously.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the hard road is the easy path.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot to put that all that effort into the hiring process, but it's a whole lot better to put it there than afterwards to try to remedy something you just didn't catch in the beginning.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember at uh various clubs over the years, there was a lot of focus put on thanking the significant others that were there too, right?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I remember when I first started going to clubs, I I wasn't married.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, well, that's kind of weird, you know.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're the ones that did all the work and put up with all the BS to get here.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Where's my thing?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: As I got more mature and the older, like I get it, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean my wife over the years has spent many weeks at home with the kids on her own and do a job herself sometimes and things like that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: I incredible sacrifices.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I heard a story uh Chris the other day where I don't know if it's the head of sales or it's the maybe the president of the company had a had a gift for remembering things.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he would go to a club and he would know everyone's name by type, you know, person qualified and significant others.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: And on the dinner night, he would go around tail by table.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: John and Katherine, thanks for coming in from Cincinnati.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you get two kids at high school and you're away from the kids.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Jim and Laura.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Laura, you know, you did well last year, Jim.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I just knew them all like that.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you said the connection that you had with people when you're just able to thank them like that was amazing.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: I could see that, right?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: As you get in your process, getting to know everyone early, understanding what they're all about will definitely be part of the you know connection to the mission that we're on at the company.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it I think we all have a deep-seated need to, yes, feel appreciated, but to feel that we're a part of something versus, you know, the word employee in in and of itself is is kind of a cold word.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: We don't call any of our family members an employee, right?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: It just has a you know ticker symbol type feel to it, right?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think again, it is an employee's market.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're not doing things that differentiate, you're not competing.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not really.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or not not really for the people that you want that are really going to govern that continual high growth for a company.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean to that point though, I mean, the not differentiating, I'm sure there's simple blocking and tackling to do to keep people engaged and as part of the process, right?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that uh I I wanted to mention, you know, and I don't know if this is just me, I'm not even I don't even know if it's it's it's right or not, but CVs, this used to be resumes.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: We used to call them resumes, and then we upgraded that to CVs and and but it's a piece of paper with all your accomplishments, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we used to get that, we used to review those, and you know, I can remember when I first started hiring, starting from the very back and walking all the way forward in it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and now I I don't think people do that a lot, and and I'm gonna tell you my experience uh in why I go more for LinkedIn.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, LinkedIn.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this a while, you noted that at the beginning.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't have a lot of common connections, something's off, right?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I for almost every candidate, like nine times out of ten, I can call someone that I personally know and trust and and get a backdoor reference.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Which to me are usually better than the ones that are furnished because the ones that are furnished are furnished for a reason, it's because they're gonna give a good reference.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I had an experience with somebody.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we were looking, we had an OEM with Dell at a company called Adminfia a while back.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up getting acquired by by uh um sofos.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the uh the company was with Dell, and I was looking for someone to just manage that OEM.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was looking for somebody that had Dell experience down in Atlanta.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's a gentleman uh that was hiring for that, and he says, I've got the perfect person, then they're you know, we're just at Dell for six years, etc.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great, great.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sends me the CV, I look at the CV, I type in the guy's name into LinkedIn, I'm like, this can't be the same guy.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Completely different, completely different background, and no Dell on it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: No Dell on it, like completely different.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I naturally couldn't wait to take the call.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I took the call and I go, So I'm just trying to understand.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at you digitally and I'm looking at your CV, and they're just I you know, is this the same person?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out it was exactly the same person.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: There was no Dell background what whatsoever there.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I look, that's an extreme example, but my point is when did they start?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: When did they leave?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: What's the reason for the departure?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: What did they do in between?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Does everyone really start and end their new start their new company and end the last company on the same date?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and LinkedIn, you can lie on paper because it's not shipped all over the world.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Not the case when it comes to uh to LinkedIn.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's almost like there's peer review, right?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've looked to some people that I've I know's uh LinkedIn profile and kind of raised an eyebrow at a couple of things.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Job job title inflation is one of the things that seems to happen quite a bit.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: But uh that I guess that's that's what happens, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: I guess they're less likely because they know that others are gonna look at what they're writing, right?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: And say, ah yeah, I can't really claim that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well the LinkedIn are the people that they work with.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the point, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they're good, yeah.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so so they know if they're being truthful.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen some people that have scratched things a bit.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't run around like the LinkedIn police, and but you know, it it's a note.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's noted.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: One more data point, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you one thing that I've uh this is a personal rent, uh more than anything else.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm interested to know how you kind of view this.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what I've seen over the years is a lot of complaints from uh whether it's recruiters or hiring managers saying things like, well, I didn't get a thank you note and I didn't get this, and they didn't do this quite on time as part of the process and therefore they're they're not a great candidate, right?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: The hiring manager.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming and flying all this way to come and meet me.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't want to go fly to go see you.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh where was a thank you note from you saying, I think you'd be a great candidate.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Let's keep talking.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I really liked how you've got that background at Dell that I wasn't appreciated a lot and things like that.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: It just seems like the disconnect where you know in the past maybe the current market is different and it's reblocking and tackling needs to be better.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: But in the past, you know, the hiring company manager could sit back and wait for the flood of resumes coming in, whereas right now you've got to be better than that, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to do a better job of engaging with people to try and attract them as opposed to sit there and wait for them to come with their you know uh cup out saying, please hire me.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the advantage of being old is that you can see patterns.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm seeing patterns uh that my children are wearing clothing that I wore a long time ago that is now back for the third time.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: What's my point?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: The point is when I first started in sales, we used to write handwritten notes to our customers every year.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we used to write handwritten notes pursuant to uh the conclusion of an interview, and the same vice versa.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And even for meetings that you would you would have.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and and why why did we do that?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was a way to differentiate.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's been a mass departure from that, you know, especially I'd say in high tech, but I think in general, everything's digitized, it's a text, it's this long, why?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're all doing so many more things.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, back to the differentiation.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not gonna handwrite a note for every meeting.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I actually started a program here and it it's um it's called Blue and stands for brilliant, leading, unique, and exceptional.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're doing is we're looking at the 17 different stages of interface with our company, also on the recruiting side, but also on the customer side, and figuring out what are the things that we can do to make those touch points, those interactions with us brilliant, leading, unique, and exceptional.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets back to this is nothing new.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is just reheated greatness from the past.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: But it's so important, right?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Especially right now with the shift, right?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: When you're trying, I mean, right now we really need to go and attract the A talent, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: They don't go and post their resumes on Indeed or something like that, right?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: These are the people we need to go and attract, and I love that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a brilliant leading unique and extra exceptional?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Operation Blue.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what does that translate then?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if I'm if I'm applying for a job at uh talking to people at Aqua right now, are there things in my experience that you would say that came from the Blue program?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: There will be.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: There will be.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not uh it's not rolled out yet, but um we're at phase one.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if you put it this way, if you applied in 60 days from today, there would be.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Including things that we would give people that we decided are not the right fit.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And why why would you do that?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because they have a lot of people in their network that probably might be the right fit.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, that actually happened.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting, and I don't think people look at the this piece, it's the false positive aspect of interviewing.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: There was a person that I really liked, but I didn't feel it was the right fit for the job.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I let that person know, called that person, had a conversation with him, let him know I was gonna pass, let them know why, and that I thought I have deep respect for this person and and his accomplishments.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Two days later, he came back disappointed in this, totally understand.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have somebody though that I think would be great for your company.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a recommendation.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that wouldn't, and by the way, we're hiring that person.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't another false positive.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're hiring that person uh that this trusted recommended.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: The point is he was treated with dignity and respect and understood that why we moved in the direction we did, and actually somewhat agreed, disappointed but agreed, and we got we got a referral out of it.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So now, if you're short-sighted, you say I saved$20,000 to$30,000.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're a little bit deeper than that, what you're saying is we're treating people with respect, even though we know we're not going to be on the journey together.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And not only is that a humane thing to do, but that becomes a way to differentiate your brand and at least the way you're treating people, um, even especially when you know you're not going to be gaining from them.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, I ended up gaining.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a big takeaway for me from this conversation is is the blue and how it can govern how you interact not with customers only, but with with your your hiring prospects as well.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else to wrap this up, uh Chris, before we do that?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I think this has been great.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I appreciate what you guys do.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: The reason uh I I thought it made sense to talk about the hiring is because of the deficit in human capital for what we do right now, and it's so critical.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, especially with all the high growth companies, I just think um I think for anyone wanting to differentiate, the interview process is something that shouldn't be overlooked.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I will tell you that you know, partnering with, and hopefully you have a great HR group.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have a great one here, but if you have a great HR group, really bring them into the business.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: You'd be shocked at what an unsung hero they are in the interview process.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, they're they're great people.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you a quick story just on that.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was at a company a few years back that you and I both know, and I was I was I built and run ran the onboarding program for new hires, so the new hire sales training.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get them productive as fast as possible?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we started putting the new hires, the sales new hires through it, and then I think the word spread a little bit.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I got asked, would you mind if RST field came?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Would you mind if uh others came in?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, recruit recruitment were you know, we were hiring a lot of people at the time.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: So uh new recruiters that came in went to the same new hire program at sales new hires.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: So they would learn about what was said and what we were asking them to do and the differentiation and uh the challenges and all the things that you know new hire would face, they were taught the same thing.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for all of that, they it was so much it's so useful when they're uh engaging with prospects to be able to have that in their back pocket to really quickly know uh what's happening in the field there and then uh the final anecdote to that is uh one of the people that we brought in as a recruiter, he actually ate the the first meeting role play that we did at the end of the week.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, kind of first meeting at the end of the week, she ate it for the top four of the whole lot.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I think three or four years later she's now an enterprise tail grip at the company.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: These people, as you say, right, engage with them, bring them in.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's uh it's so much more valuable for them when they're doing what they're doing, and who knows what you uncover, right?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just uh people are just ready for that next step.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Part of the process.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, I've enjoyed this conversation a lot.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: I really like to have final question for you, or final two questions.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what sales question or sales thing have you heard from your the people you've worked with in the years past that you would like to cast into the far outreach space never to hear again?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I can only pick one.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go with one.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's 50-50, 50-50 shot it comes in.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's never been a 50-50 ever.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And 50-50 always means you're losing.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's not coming in.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: So in forecasting, is you know, what was your feeling?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 50-50.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that came maybe it was a 2.0 of split the baby, which is another one I can't stand.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: So 50-50 when forecasting, that's uh you're kidding yourself, right?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then I know the answer to the final question, which is are you hiring at aqua?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone wants to get hold of you personally, where would you send them?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I would send them first to my email, which is chris.smith at aquasec.com.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I have a uh a 24-hour SLA to all emails that come in.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: I usually do a lot better, but in case I'm traveling, I just said a 24-hour SLA.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll get back to you, and I'll probably also get back to you via LinkedIn.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And usually if there's a connecting flight, then I'll just exchange numbers and away we go.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Great stuff.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much for talking to us today.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Some great insights there.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love some of the ideas that you've had that you're implementing there, Equa.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh good luck with 2022.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Andrew, thanks for having me.