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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 40 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother. Nancy Guthrie
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Speaker 1: missing day forty tonight, an elite squad at Quantico, the
0:14
Speaker 1: FBI trying to create a shoe cast. This as we
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Speaker 1: learn the FBI has returned to a particular restaurant to
0:25
Speaker 1: reinterrogate restaurant employees. And what about the possibility of retinal
0:32
Speaker 1: scanning of the porch guy? And this as apb All
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Speaker 1: points bulletin on a mail trying to have a full
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Speaker 1: sleeve removed, a full sleeve tattoo removed. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:51
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
0:54
Speaker 1: being with us.
0:55
Speaker 2: The stalkers cannot help but write about their relationship with
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Speaker 2: the victim, some of the victims' families. This perpetrator had
1:02
Speaker 2: gleaned a lot about Nancy Guthrie's life.
1:06
Speaker 1: The perp likely has a criminal history. Maybe the stalker
1:11
Speaker 1: did glean a lot, but what evidence did the purp.
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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced he's a stalker of Nancy Guthrie. I
1:17
Speaker 1: think that he is a con trying to make a
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Speaker 1: quick dollar or a million. What clues did he unwittingly
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Speaker 1: leave behind. We have analyzed him from the top of
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Speaker 1: his head to the soles off his shoes. Enter Professor Forensics,
1:32
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, author of
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Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a
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Speaker 1: hit podcast series Body Bags. With Joseph Scott Morgan, I
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Speaker 1: was concerned about any possibility of a shoe print because
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Speaker 1: the walkway to Nancy Guthrie's home, if we could see that,
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Speaker 1: I believe is gravel. But let's start with a and
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Speaker 1: nd at z. What is a shoe cast and what
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Speaker 1: is electromagnetic lifting?
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Speaker 3: Okay, there's any number of ways to raise a shoe print,
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Speaker 3: if you will. Traditionally what we think of and we
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Speaker 3: still do this, Nancy. If you think about a foot
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Speaker 3: going into a soft malleable surface like mud, soft dirt,
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Speaker 3: even sand, you leave behind an impression, okay, and we
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Speaker 3: can cast that. We can put dental stone in there,
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Speaker 3: let it dry, pull it out, and you have this
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Speaker 3: image of the shoe print. Here we have an example,
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Speaker 3: for instance, of an electrostatic lift. This is completely different.
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Speaker 3: This is where we put down a charged sheet of
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Speaker 3: my laar and it actually goes over an area where
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Speaker 3: there is a suspected print that's generally left in soil
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Speaker 3: or dust. That's not really you're not able to see
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Speaker 3: it with the unaided eye very well. But what it
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Speaker 3: does is that there is a magnetic charge and that
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Speaker 3: lifts that print off of that surface and you can
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Speaker 3: pull it up and you can actually examine it. Here
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Speaker 3: we have an example of an electrostatic lift being conducted
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Speaker 3: just yesterday at Jacksonville State And for my money, in
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Speaker 3: this particular case, Nancy, I'm leaning more into the electric
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Speaker 3: electrostatic lift here because you know, you don't have a
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Speaker 3: lot of soft mud around there or soft dirt that
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Speaker 3: you're going through. But even if you look at that porch, Nancy,
3:25
Speaker 3: look at that porch, those are tiles out there. Now,
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Speaker 3: there would be a myriad of prints out there. But
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Speaker 3: what if they went in there and actually did electrostatic
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Speaker 3: lifts there. And also if they can determine where the
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Speaker 3: point of entry is in this house, go to the
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Speaker 3: interior of the house and do those lifts there. If
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Speaker 3: there's an area around her bed where you've got kind
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Speaker 3: of a smooth, non porous or less than poor surface
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Speaker 3: like a ceramic tile there, which a lot of houses
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Speaker 3: in the southwest. Have you do that around her bed?
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Speaker 3: You see if there's any kind of weird, weird prints
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Speaker 3: that are there, like a and sneaker in print that's left,
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Speaker 3: and that is possible, you can do that. I just
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Speaker 3: hope it's not too late. I hope that they protected
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Speaker 3: that scene initially, But I got to tell you, hope's
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Speaker 3: deming as far as I'm concerned.
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Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan, don't you remember at the get go
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Speaker 1: where anybody and their little sister could walk up to
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Speaker 1: the front porch and take photos because Nanas did not
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Speaker 1: secure the scene, not once, but twice did not secure
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Speaker 1: the scene. Gules were going up and taking photos of
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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's blood on the front porch. This is from
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Speaker 1: our forensic kold. And as a matter of fact, someone
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Speaker 1: tried to deliver a pizza to the crime scene. That's
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Speaker 1: how unprotected it was. How is that going to affect
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Speaker 1: any hope of a shee cast tremendously?
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Speaker 3: As you know as an attorney, Nancy, Once you take
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Speaker 3: that tape down, it is open season. At that point.
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Speaker 3: Any attorney worth their salt can argue, hey, look, anything
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Speaker 3: can be planted in there. You want to know, real
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Speaker 3: big evidence of this and the carelessness that was taken
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Speaker 3: with the scene. I'll always go back to this is
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Speaker 3: when you see that blood deposition on the on the
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Speaker 3: surface of that portico area there, Nancy, the one thing
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Speaker 3: you always see and you can see the purpse standing
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Speaker 3: on it like there, look at that, Look at that
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Speaker 3: standing on that mat, Nancy. We saw images of that
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Speaker 3: mat adjacent to the blood. They did not collect that
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Speaker 3: mat the first time out. You know, I sit there
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Speaker 3: and I think of it. Does your mind work? You know?
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Speaker 3: That's that's that's crime scene one oh one. Why was
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Speaker 3: not the mat collected at that point in time? Because
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Speaker 3: you have any number of things that can be transferred
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Speaker 3: onto that surface. I hope somebody went back and collected it.
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Speaker 3: But once you've taken the guard, the guardrails down. At
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Speaker 3: that point in time, it's open. Anybody can walk up
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Speaker 3: and take a photo anybody, and it can be argued
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Speaker 3: in court that you can plant stuff. At that point
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Speaker 3: in time. It is paramount that you protect that scene.
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Speaker 3: And there's just by virtue of the fact that you
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Speaker 3: did not value that matt anymore than they obviously didn't.
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Speaker 3: Then you're at risk here from losing valuable evidence, and
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Speaker 3: anybody can have access to it. Any lawyer worth their
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Speaker 3: salt can say, yeah, stuff was planned, they secured it,
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Speaker 3: they took the tape down. Lord only knows who got
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Speaker 3: in there.
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Speaker 1: What is an electrostatic lift?
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Speaker 3: Okay? So what you're doing with this sheet of my
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Speaker 3: law is that you're actually placing a charge on that sheet. Okay.
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Speaker 3: And as you place that charge on there, what happens
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Speaker 3: is it attracts. It attracts the underlying dust particles, lifts
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Speaker 3: it onto that sheet and boom, it's permanently there.
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Speaker 4: Okay.
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Speaker 3: So you for and this is the beauty of it,
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Speaker 3: for a moment, for a moment, you have frozen in
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Speaker 3: time that image of that shoe impression that's there. Now
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Speaker 3: here's the trick. Can you take that image that you've
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Speaker 3: frozen on that sheet, okay, and take it back and
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Speaker 3: compare it?
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Speaker 4: Well?
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Speaker 3: Can you profile that footprint? Like can someone that is
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Speaker 3: a footprint expert say, okay, we're looking for somebody that
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Speaker 3: pronates superinnates. Can we categorize the shoe print? Can we say, okay,
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Speaker 3: this manufacturer created this sole okay, and you can say
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Speaker 3: whatever manufacturer you know, insert company there, all right, And
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Speaker 3: if you can begin and again, as you know, Nancy,
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Speaker 3: with investigations, it's a big investigative funnel. You want to
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Speaker 3: try to narrow, narrow, narrow, and narrow at all times.
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Speaker 3: We want to try to exclude as much stuff as
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Speaker 3: we more stuff. We want to try to exclude as
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Speaker 3: much as we possibly can to narrow our field. Can
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Speaker 3: they take images, for instance, of those shoes that we
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Speaker 3: see right here captured at the scene the steel shots.
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Speaker 3: Can they profile those shoes and say, okay, this is
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Speaker 3: the manufacture of those shoes. Automatically, you've narrowed your field.
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Speaker 3: And can you say if you do the electrostatic lift,
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Speaker 3: can you say, is it a possibility, is it a
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Speaker 3: possibility that that particular brand is shoe could leave this
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Speaker 3: kind of in pro Well, now you have really, you know,
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Speaker 3: kind of fine tuned your target area at this point
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Speaker 3: in time. The trick now is to find out who
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Speaker 3: belongs to those shoes, who was wearing those shoes at
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Speaker 3: that point.
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Speaker 1: I know it works in a lab, but given the
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Speaker 1: fact that the general public could go right up onto
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Speaker 1: her porch, and how many people from the Sheriff's office
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Speaker 1: were in and out of the home on the interior
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Speaker 1: I don't know that we can get this type of evidence.
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Speaker 1: There's still a chance. Straight out to Dave Mac joining
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Speaker 1: US Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me
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Speaker 1: about re emerging video of the interior of Nancy Guthrie's bedroom,
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Speaker 1: which I'd like to point out has a window right
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Speaker 1: there on ground level. You can look right into and
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Speaker 1: see her bedroom, the layout, everything, how close her bed
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Speaker 1: is to the door, the window, the works. What is this,
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Speaker 1: Dave Mac.
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Speaker 5: What you're seeing is when the Today Show went they
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Speaker 5: were trying to show the closeness of Savannah Guthrie with
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Speaker 5: her mom, Nancy, and showing this side of Nancy Guthrie,
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Speaker 5: the mom showing how she taught Savannah to make a bed,
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Speaker 5: and that's why you see her doing the corners there.
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Speaker 5: But what this was done in an effort to, you know,
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Speaker 5: make it more personable and connecting with their audience. But
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Speaker 5: what it's showing is that is her bedroom, Nancy Guthrie's bedroom,
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Speaker 5: and she's been in this home since the nineties. She's
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Speaker 5: been in the same bedroom, same layout ever since. So
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Speaker 5: as you pointed out, the window is right there, we're
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Speaker 5: looking at Savannah Guthrie's mom Nancy Guthrie in the room
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Speaker 5: with the bed might been pulled out of the night
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Speaker 5: she was kidnapped, and.
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Speaker 1: We see what she keeps on her bedside table and
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Speaker 1: more hate. Dave mac megan Kelly found this and brought
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Speaker 1: it to everyone's tension. When was that taken? When was
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Speaker 1: that shoot? From our friends at Today with missus Guthrie.
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Speaker 5: It was in twenty thirteen.
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Speaker 1: Because I started to say, she's getting around really well
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Speaker 1: and does not seem to have any mobility issue. But
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Speaker 1: you know, many years have passed since then. Let's take
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Speaker 1: a look at that video again, because whoever searched Savannah
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Speaker 1: Guthrie's salary in Nancy Guthrie's home address may very well
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Speaker 1: have pulled up video just like this. What clues can
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Speaker 1: we glean from this video? A lot a lot from
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Speaker 1: our friends at Today Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to
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Speaker 1: Joseph's got Morgan Professor forensics. What do you learn from this.
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Speaker 3: Just looking well, you look at the nature of the
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Speaker 3: flooring and it's really hard to kind of kind of
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Speaker 3: pick up and try to understand it. Has it changed
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Speaker 3: over that period of time? Is it a smooth, kind
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Speaker 3: of semi porous floor that we could go in and
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Speaker 3: collect anything relative to shoe prints. You know, one of
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Speaker 3: the things that you begin to think about is that
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Speaker 3: folks were saying that she was taken from her bedroom.
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Speaker 3: First off, I don't understand how they source that information particularly,
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Speaker 3: but it.
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Speaker 1: Certainly so because Savannah said it in one of her plates,
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Speaker 1: she said, my mom was taken out of her bed.
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Speaker 3: Well, you have to take that. You have to take
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Speaker 3: that and utilize that as and I'm sure that they
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Speaker 3: already have because if she's saying that that that's rooted
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Speaker 3: somewhere factually, so you're going to look at any kind
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Speaker 3: of physical evidence that might be associated with an outside
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Speaker 3: party that's there. And it could be anything from dusty
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Speaker 3: prints that are left behind by shoes, it could be
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Speaker 3: any kind of trace evidence, any kind of fiber evidents
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Speaker 3: where they're putting hands on somebody to move them around.
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Speaker 1: We also see that betspread if she still has the
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Speaker 1: same one, and obviously an MBAC would have to be
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Speaker 1: used on that. It is a porous material to get
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Speaker 1: potential DNA straight out to Bria. It's Gibbons joining us.
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Speaker 1: He is Director Operations USP, a nationwide security leading a
12:25
Speaker 1: team of investigators that specialize in missing people and go
12:29
Speaker 1: around the world finding them rescuing them. Particularly, he has
12:34
Speaker 1: an expertise and extractions from Mexico. He is a former
12:38
Speaker 1: marine and Iraqi war vet. Brif it's Gibbons. I can
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Speaker 1: learn a lot from that video, and so could anybody,
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Speaker 1: including the Purp.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, certainly, and we see that the Purp would have
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Speaker 6: access to this readily online.
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Speaker 4: Uh, you know, is he looking to see?
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Speaker 6: Are their camera locations inside of the house, are their
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Speaker 6: avenues of entry or egress in that room? And all
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Speaker 6: this should be caveat with the fact that there was
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Speaker 6: an incredible amount of tension drawn to missus Guthrie with
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Speaker 6: Savannah's visit and the visit to that restaurant that the
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Speaker 6: FBI is now conducting interviews again with restaurant staff.
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Speaker 1: At some point he reaches up to dismantle or up
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Speaker 1: the door camp. I see black and gray work.
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Speaker 5: I can see some subtle shading on the edges.
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Speaker 1: And when he does that much is revealed. Joining us
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Speaker 1: now a special guest, Jeff Garnett, co founder Inkless Tattoo
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Speaker 1: Removal Centers, English Tattoo Removal dot Com. Jeff, I know
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Speaker 1: that you, like me, have studied carefully. The porch guy's
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Speaker 1: risked tattoo. Got a question for you, jeff Y, have
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Speaker 1: you ever been asked by a perpetrator to remove a tattoo?
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Speaker 7: Yes, actually we have.
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Speaker 8: We didn't know at the time that it was a perpetrator,
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Speaker 8: but in twenty twenty one, there was a shooting death
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Speaker 8: outside of a famous hotel in Manhattan and it.
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Speaker 7: Was all caught on surveillance camera.
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Speaker 8: The perpetrator was His picture was shown on the news
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Speaker 8: and everyone kept commenting on the fact that he had
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Speaker 8: these full tattoo sleeves. Later the following week, a detective
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Speaker 8: came in and questioned us because they had arrested him
14:42
Speaker 8: and they found our aftercare instructions in his car. So
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Speaker 8: what had happened is the shooting had happened, I think
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Speaker 8: on a Thursday, It was all over the news the
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Speaker 8: following morning, and that Friday he came into one of
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Speaker 8: our locations trying to get his sleeves removed. So we
15:02
Speaker 8: didn't know at the time, but they were able to
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Speaker 8: show that that was his attempt to cover up the
15:07
Speaker 8: identifying marks.
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Speaker 1: So the video caught him with two full sleeves yes, wow,
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Speaker 1: okay in his car they found your after care instructions. Okay,
15:21
Speaker 1: how long would it take to remove a full sleeve?
15:25
Speaker 1: Jeff Garnett.
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Speaker 7: It takes a long time.
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Speaker 8: It's not an instant thing where you come in and
15:31
Speaker 8: laser it and it's gone instantly. You know, we would
15:34
Speaker 8: all love for the technology to get there, but we're
15:37
Speaker 8: not quite there at this point, probably at least a year.
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Speaker 8: There are a lot of variables, different ink colors, different
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Speaker 8: ink saturation levels, locations on the body, how healthy someone's
15:49
Speaker 8: immune system is. These are all factors that can impact it.
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Speaker 8: But basically, the laser is breaking the ink into microscopic
15:56
Speaker 8: particles that are much easier for your immune system to remove.
16:00
Speaker 8: So we're pretty much just speeding up the natural fading process.
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Speaker 8: When I started doing this fifteen years ago, it would
16:08
Speaker 8: have easily taken three years.
16:10
Speaker 4: With the newer.
16:11
Speaker 8: Pico technology, it's cut that in half, but it's still
16:15
Speaker 8: a year.
16:15
Speaker 7: To a year and a half.
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Speaker 1: Bolo be on the lookout for a mail trying to
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Speaker 1: have two full sleeves or at least one full sleeve
16:28
Speaker 1: out of the Catalina Hills area. Removed back to Jeff Garnett,
16:33
Speaker 1: joining US co founder Inklis tattoo removal centers, so it
16:36
Speaker 1: takes a long time to finally get a full sleeve removed.
16:43
Speaker 1: Could you rush it? If someone said I've got to
16:45
Speaker 1: have this thing off in forty eight hours, could you
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Speaker 1: do it? Is it physically possible?
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Speaker 7: Not with laser technology.
16:53
Speaker 8: The only way to do it instantly would be a
16:56
Speaker 8: surgical procedure called decision or.
17:00
Speaker 7: They would have to cut it out.
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Speaker 8: And if that was a small tattoo, they'd be able
17:03
Speaker 8: to cut it out and it would be replaced with
17:06
Speaker 8: a scar, and that would be done by a purgeon.
17:08
Speaker 8: If you're talking about a full sleeve, it would get
17:11
Speaker 8: into skin grafts.
17:12
Speaker 7: It just wouldn't be possible. Laser technology can remove that,
17:17
Speaker 7: but it's going to take long time.
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Speaker 8: Now we're assuming the has a sleeve, because you're seeing
17:23
Speaker 8: that risk portion and it looks as if.
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Speaker 7: It's part of a much larger tattoo. Could that small
17:29
Speaker 7: portion be cut out surgically?
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Speaker 8: Yes, it could, but there would definitely be a large
17:36
Speaker 8: scar in the place.
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Speaker 1: Once you have the tattoo completely removed, are there any
17:43
Speaker 1: traces left behind? You have an example on your net?
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Speaker 8: Correct, Yes, I used to have a tattoo right here
17:51
Speaker 8: and there's nothing. There's no scar tissue, there's no shadow
17:55
Speaker 8: or skin discoloration.
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Speaker 7: You know, it depends there.
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Speaker 8: There's certain ink colors are easier to remove than others.
18:04
Speaker 8: But it looks to me like this is a black
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Speaker 8: tattoo on black ink tattoo, and.
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Speaker 7: Black ink responds really well to the laser.
18:12
Speaker 8: Black absorbs the full spectrum of light from the laser,
18:15
Speaker 8: so usually black ink can be removed complete.
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Speaker 1: It's a black and gray, which of course is just
18:20
Speaker 1: variations on black. So you're absolutely correct. I'm just curious
18:24
Speaker 1: what was the tattoo you had removed?
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Speaker 7: It was a bat. It was a silly bat hanging
18:30
Speaker 7: upside down.
18:30
Speaker 1: Behind me, a bat, as in the bat that flies
18:34
Speaker 1: out of a cave and jumps in your hair and
18:35
Speaker 1: tries to buy you. Correct, Okay, why did you have
18:39
Speaker 1: a bat on your neck?
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Speaker 8: I tend to a lot of my tattoos are kind
18:45
Speaker 8: of time stamps of different parts of my life. And
18:47
Speaker 8: I had moved temporarily to Austin, Texas, and there's a
18:51
Speaker 8: bridge in Austin that has about a million bats that
18:55
Speaker 8: live underneath it, and that dust they all come flying out,
18:58
Speaker 8: So that was kind of my hostin in Texas tattoo.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not a strength. I can't analyze that. I'll
19:06
Speaker 1: just take it for what it is, for the primitive value.
19:09
Speaker 1: But why do other people have tattoos removed?
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Speaker 7: Typically, there's a wide range of purposes.
19:18
Speaker 8: Sometimes people get a tattoo and don't like the way
19:20
Speaker 8: it came out, so they almost immediately want to get
19:24
Speaker 8: rid of it. There's the stereotypical boyfriend and girlfriend get
19:29
Speaker 8: each other's names and then break up.
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Speaker 7: The most common one is people just outgrow it.
19:35
Speaker 8: You know, you get something in your team's your twenties,
19:37
Speaker 8: and then in your thirties and forties, your taste change
19:40
Speaker 8: and you're.
19:40
Speaker 7: A different person.
19:41
Speaker 8: But there also are some really more psychological reasons as well.
19:47
Speaker 8: You have really said things like victims of human trafficking
19:51
Speaker 8: that have property of tattoos, and that's some of the
19:54
Speaker 8: things that we do pro bono for people. You have
19:58
Speaker 8: radiation tattoos for people cancer survivors from when they had
20:02
Speaker 8: their procedures.
20:03
Speaker 7: So there really is a wide range.
20:05
Speaker 8: But the majority of the clients we see got something
20:08
Speaker 8: when they were younger, they've outgrown.
20:10
Speaker 7: It in their tastes have changed, and they're just a
20:11
Speaker 7: one person.
20:19
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray. Jeff Garnett is joining us.
20:26
Speaker 1: He is the co founder of Inkless Tattoo Removal Centers
20:32
Speaker 1: with multiple branches. Be on the lookout please Jeff Garnett
20:37
Speaker 1: full sleeve removal. That said, this leads me to another process,
20:43
Speaker 1: that process being a I used to create a ransom note.
20:49
Speaker 1: But first before I get into that. With Christian Hammond
20:52
Speaker 1: from Northwestern University, Dave mac, what can you tell me
20:55
Speaker 1: about the last forty eight hours where the FBI descends
20:59
Speaker 1: upon a restaurant to reinterrogate employees a full two days
21:06
Speaker 1: of reinterrogation.
21:08
Speaker 5: Nancy Guthrie and Savannah Guthrie went out to dinner back
21:13
Speaker 5: in November when the Today Show came to town and
21:15
Speaker 5: was filming Savannah back in Tucson. They went to Elcharro,
21:19
Speaker 5: which is their favorite Mexican restaurant. Well, the FBI has
21:23
Speaker 5: been back in interviewing employees of the restaurant, specifically asking
21:29
Speaker 5: them if they noticed anyone standing around, maybe trying to
21:34
Speaker 5: ingratiate themselves with the cast and crew, anybody that acted weird.
21:39
Speaker 5: They were asking those types of questions of all of
21:42
Speaker 5: the employees in the Elcharro trying to determine if anyone
21:46
Speaker 5: was there that shouldn't have been or was acting inappropriately
21:50
Speaker 5: while they were there.
21:51
Speaker 1: From our friends at today, you know, I'm very curious
21:55
Speaker 1: about their line of questioning to these restaurant employees, if
22:00
Speaker 1: they saw anyone there that day that was unusual, if
22:03
Speaker 1: anyone hung around, you know, to braf It's Gibbons joining
22:08
Speaker 1: US Director of Operations USPA Nationwide Security, that must have
22:14
Speaker 1: been a memorable day for a lot of people. To
22:15
Speaker 1: have a big star like Savannah Guthrie roll in very memorable.
22:21
Speaker 1: So it's not just the employees. They're going to be
22:26
Speaker 1: questioned about other people that were there that day to
22:29
Speaker 1: watch the filming. I guarantee if It's Gibbons, they're going
22:32
Speaker 1: to be asking does anybody have a son a black
22:36
Speaker 1: sheep son? Does anybody have a bad seed brother in
22:40
Speaker 1: law or son in law or cousin where the mom
22:44
Speaker 1: comes home and says, hey, guess what happened today Savannah
22:48
Speaker 1: Guthrie was there with her mother, or guess what's going
22:50
Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow? And what I want to do with that,
22:53
Speaker 1: braf It's Gibbons is overlay it onto that Google trend
22:57
Speaker 1: search where someone thought to question Savannah Guthrie's salary and
23:05
Speaker 1: in the same search the home address for Nancy Guthrie
23:10
Speaker 1: and then connect that person to someone we may find
23:13
Speaker 1: out about through the restaurant employees.
23:17
Speaker 6: Certainly a focus of those questions is going to be
23:20
Speaker 6: who did you tell about this? Did you text anybody?
23:23
Speaker 6: Did you call anybody? Am I able to look at that.
23:26
Speaker 4: Text to see who? How did they respond? Right?
23:30
Speaker 6: It may not be that they're focused solely on that
23:34
Speaker 6: restaurant employee, but who's on their periphery, who's in their
23:38
Speaker 6: circle that they told about this event, and they told
23:41
Speaker 6: about missus Guthrie living in Tucson being connected to Savannah.
23:46
Speaker 1: So it's not just limited to the employees. It's who
23:49
Speaker 1: they know, who they're related to, who may have been
23:52
Speaker 1: in the restaurant at that time. The line of questioning.
23:57
Speaker 1: I'm very curious about what that is, what it means,
24:01
Speaker 1: what we can glean from the FBI spending not one
24:05
Speaker 1: but two full days at the restaurant, So we believe, well,
24:10
Speaker 1: there are two restaurants in play that we know of
24:13
Speaker 1: right now. Of course, this is us on the outside
24:16
Speaker 1: looking in Brian. There is the restaurant connected to that
24:21
Speaker 1: glove that was found about two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home.
24:25
Speaker 1: The glove was connected back to in a restaurant employee,
24:29
Speaker 1: and that employee was cleared. There's that restaurant, and there
24:34
Speaker 1: is the restaurant at which Nancy Guthrie and Savannah Guthrie,
24:39
Speaker 1: let's see that video had the Arizona homecoming where Savannah
24:43
Speaker 1: went back home and she was with her family. They
24:47
Speaker 1: went to their favorite restaurant. They spent time in missus
24:50
Speaker 1: Guthrie's home. Which restaurant are we talking about, Brian.
24:56
Speaker 6: We're talking about this restaurant that you see here. And
24:59
Speaker 6: you have to remember this isn't Hollywood, right, this is Tucson, Arizona.
25:03
Speaker 6: So you have a film crew, Savannah Guthrie, a nationally
25:07
Speaker 6: recognized TV show host, rolls into this restaurant. This would
25:12
Speaker 6: be quite an event for that restaurant and the people there.
25:16
Speaker 6: And I think it's important to mention it's unlikely that
25:20
Speaker 6: it was happenstance that an abductor happened to be in
25:24
Speaker 6: the restaurant that day, you know, and saw Missus Guthrie.
25:27
Speaker 4: The most likely scenario is that somebody who.
25:30
Speaker 6: Was there be it staff or a guest actually communicated
25:35
Speaker 6: about Hey, I saw Savannah Guthrie with her mother at
25:38
Speaker 6: this restaurant. Another thing that law enforcement is undoubtedly doing
25:43
Speaker 6: is looking at the checks from that day. Who else
25:46
Speaker 6: was in the restaurant, who paid with a credit card?
25:49
Speaker 6: What information does the restaurant have about the other guests,
25:53
Speaker 6: And then they're going to go out that one additional
25:55
Speaker 6: layer and start asking everybody who was there who they
25:59
Speaker 6: communicate with about this.
26:01
Speaker 1: Another possibility, Brian Fitzgibbons, is surveillance video if it can
26:08
Speaker 1: be pulled down from the cloud of what was happening
26:11
Speaker 1: in the parking lot. If there let's just go with
26:15
Speaker 1: me on this. We know we have that video from
26:18
Speaker 1: a neighbor of cars zipping by around the time that
26:22
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker stopped connecting to the bluetooth and her home,
26:26
Speaker 1: you know, two three o'clock in the morning. There are
26:28
Speaker 1: people heading back and forth toward her home, toward that street.
26:34
Speaker 1: This is from our friends at Fox News. By the way, we.
26:36
Speaker 9: Too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in
26:39
Speaker 9: the media.
26:42
Speaker 1: As a family, we are doing everything that we can.
26:48
Speaker 1: We are ready to talk. Joining me now, Christian Hammond
26:53
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence expert. He is a professor of computer science
26:57
Speaker 1: at Northwestern University. Again not shabby, Christian, director of the
27:03
Speaker 1: Center for Advancing Safety on Machine Intelligence. Christian, thank you
27:09
Speaker 1: for being with us. What I'm getting at is I'm
27:14
Speaker 1: narrowing down who I'm looking for. I'm looking for a guy,
27:20
Speaker 1: what do we say, jackie between five nine and six feet,
27:27
Speaker 1: at least one sleeve, one full sleeve, likely two full sleeves.
27:33
Speaker 1: I'm looking for someone that has that Ozark backpack. I'm
27:39
Speaker 1: looking for that receipt. I'm looking for someone from the
27:43
Speaker 1: Twuson area because they have a soft spot for two
27:48
Speaker 1: Tucson TV networks that maybe they grew up watching. I'm
27:55
Speaker 1: looking for someone that has a knowledge of Nancy Guthrie
27:59
Speaker 1: and her home, maybe maybe connected in some tenuous way,
28:05
Speaker 1: not necessarily an employee of that Mexican restaurant. I believe
28:10
Speaker 1: we're looking for someone that may have a criminal record.
28:14
Speaker 1: And now I'm looking for someone that may have conducted
28:18
Speaker 1: that Google search we talked about early on that looked
28:21
Speaker 1: for Nancy Guthrie's home address and Savannah Guthries salary. Okay,
28:29
Speaker 1: that's a lot of data. Christian Hammond think about the
28:35
Speaker 1: ransom note. Could the purp if the ransom note is
28:39
Speaker 1: in fact connected, have used AI artificial intelligence to disguise
28:45
Speaker 1: their identity, Well, certainly.
28:50
Speaker 9: I mean the power of the power of the language
28:53
Speaker 9: models is that you can have them say something that
28:56
Speaker 9: you want to say, but in a tone and in
28:59
Speaker 9: a in a cadence of words that is not yours.
29:03
Speaker 9: And so you can certainly disguise yourself that way, and
29:06
Speaker 9: you'll leave a little bit of a trace in doing so.
29:09
Speaker 9: But that trace is so minute and is so washed
29:12
Speaker 9: out in terms of all the other activity that's going
29:14
Speaker 9: on that it's.
29:16
Speaker 4: It wouldn't be.
29:16
Speaker 9: It wouldn't be you wouldn't be able to find it.
29:19
Speaker 1: And so yes, okay, Christian, we established earlier that year,
29:26
Speaker 1: you know, a lot years ahead of all of us
29:30
Speaker 1: mere mortals. When it comes to this. I heard you.
29:34
Speaker 1: I know what all those words mean, but in the
29:36
Speaker 1: context of your sense, I don't know what you're saying.
29:40
Speaker 1: You're telling me that Google can look through trillions of
29:46
Speaker 1: data points and they can find Nancy Guthries doorcam, and
29:53
Speaker 1: they can resurrect like Lazarus video footage we thought didn't
29:58
Speaker 1: even exist. Well, we listen to Now that was our
30:00
Speaker 1: first mistake. But that said, and we can't put all
30:04
Speaker 1: of these facts together and come up with that artificial
30:08
Speaker 1: intelligence request.
30:11
Speaker 9: Yeah, so finding finding the images is a targeted task.
30:18
Speaker 9: That is, they know where they should be looking, they
30:21
Speaker 9: know the features that are really important there, and that
30:26
Speaker 9: really gives them a lot of constraints in terms of
30:29
Speaker 9: what they're looking for. But when you're looking for an
30:34
Speaker 9: arbitrary query against a language model, where there are dozens
30:37
Speaker 9: of language models, some of them are local, some of
30:39
Speaker 9: them anyone can use of finding a tiny little piece
30:44
Speaker 9: of a request is an untenable I mean, there's too
30:50
Speaker 9: much to search. And in the midst of all this,
30:53
Speaker 9: there might be other people who are going, I wonder
30:54
Speaker 9: what it's like.
30:55
Speaker 7: I wonder if you could generate a.
30:59
Speaker 9: Ranch note, And so they're generating them and we will
31:03
Speaker 9: find them as well. And so it's we're really in
31:06
Speaker 9: a place where there's not enough focus to in terms
31:11
Speaker 9: of what we're looking for to find the right thing.
31:15
Speaker 9: And I think it's actually in the movie. In the
31:19
Speaker 9: movie about about Touring and all of the work he
31:22
Speaker 9: done did in terms of decrypting, there was a moment
31:25
Speaker 9: where once he identified a target that they knew they
31:29
Speaker 9: they were looking for a particular thing in a particular
31:32
Speaker 9: in a particular message that gave them the ability to
31:34
Speaker 9: figure out what was going on. But if you don't
31:36
Speaker 9: have a target, it's incredibly difficult to find the right
31:41
Speaker 9: thing at the right time that gives you the right
31:43
Speaker 9: kind of information.
31:45
Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, you are the artificial intelligence expert. In
31:52
Speaker 1: a perfect world, what would I need to track down
31:56
Speaker 1: that AI request to write the ransom note?
32:00
Speaker 9: Well, a perfect world would be that we would be
32:04
Speaker 9: able to take a look at all those all the
32:06
Speaker 9: logs of all the interactions trivially. Uh.
32:10
Speaker 7: The But that's a perfect world in.
32:13
Speaker 9: Terms of one thing, and that's finding stuff. But it's
32:16
Speaker 9: not a perfect world in terms of privacy, in terms
32:19
Speaker 9: of data leakage, in terms of I'm feeling like I've
32:23
Speaker 9: been using a system and I'm not telling it my
32:25
Speaker 9: entire life, and that life will be shared with everyone.
32:28
Speaker 9: So there are I've always been privacy issues. So even
32:32
Speaker 9: with the finding the you know, finding the images associated
32:36
Speaker 9: with this particular camera, there are privacy issues. That is
32:39
Speaker 9: that she didn't have a subscription and so they should
32:41
Speaker 9: not have been holding onto anything, but they were getting
32:45
Speaker 9: to the all the camera, all the footage associated with
32:48
Speaker 9: the cameras in her neighborhood. That's a privacy issue, that
32:51
Speaker 9: is that unless you've signed off for your camera to
32:54
Speaker 9: be used, you can't use it.
32:56
Speaker 7: And so there's always this.
32:57
Speaker 1: True I understand, So there really is no perfect world
33:00
Speaker 1: in finding that AI request. Okay, let me ask you this.
33:04
Speaker 1: Many people have suggested there's a possibility of doing a
33:07
Speaker 1: retinal scan on the porch gud. There's some great shots
33:11
Speaker 1: of his eyes. What do you make of that? Let's
33:14
Speaker 1: see the shots.
33:17
Speaker 9: Yeah, the the problem is is that they're they're good,
33:21
Speaker 9: but they're not magnificent. So retinal scans usually are done
33:27
Speaker 9: using infrared light to begin with, and they're they're marvelous.
33:30
Speaker 9: I mean, they're incredibly powerful in terms of being able
33:33
Speaker 9: to identify individuals. But you need that as the target.
33:37
Speaker 9: That is, if I'm if I've got a new if
33:40
Speaker 9: I got a new image and I could get a
33:42
Speaker 9: retinal scan out of it, I've got to find I
33:44
Speaker 9: have to have a thing to match it against, and
33:47
Speaker 9: we we don't really have that.
33:49
Speaker 1: The other thing is that even if there was enough
33:52
Speaker 1: data Christian to get the retinals scan and you're saying
33:57
Speaker 1: it's just beyond enhancing it from images. We have to
34:01
Speaker 1: have something to compare it too, Like fingerprints. You may
34:04
Speaker 1: have a great fingerprint, but you got to ask somebody
34:07
Speaker 1: to compare it too.
34:09
Speaker 9: So he could leave fingerprints and DNA and footprints and
34:13
Speaker 9: all sorts of things. But if they're not if there's
34:15
Speaker 9: not a target for us to match them against, it
34:18
Speaker 9: doesn't help us unless we have him in hand.
34:21
Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, I want you to go back to
34:24
Speaker 1: your think take at Northwestern University and come up with
34:27
Speaker 1: some answers for me. Christian Hammond, Jeff Garnett, Bryan Fitzgibbons,
34:33
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, and Dave Mack thank you for being
34:35
Speaker 1: with us. Everyone. If you know or think you know
34:39
Speaker 1: anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll
34:42
Speaker 1: free eight hundred two two five five three two four
34:46
Speaker 1: to remain anonymous. Five two zero eight eight two seven
34:49
Speaker 1: four sixty three. There is a one point two plus
34:52
Speaker 1: million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of
34:57
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. Arrest, conviction not acquired. We remember American hero
35:03
Speaker 1: police officer Jamie Roman Philly p D shot and killed
35:07
Speaker 1: in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife
35:12
Speaker 1: turned widow and children sentenced to life without their dad.
35:18
Speaker 1: American hero police officer Jamie Roman. Nancy Grace signing off
35:25
Speaker 1: goodbye friend.