Latest / The On Purpose Podcast / Ep. 346 - Jenny Chan

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Ep. 346 - Jenny Chan · The On Purpose Podcast

• speaker-0: You are listening to the On Purpose Podcast. There's a moment in every man's life, especially for veterans, first responders, and men called to lead when the uniform comes off but the mission doesn't end. Too many try to navigate that transition alone without structure, accountability, or brotherhood. That's why I'm proud to partner with Missions Purpose, a community built for men who refuse to drift. Inside the school platform, You get live calls, challenges, frameworks, and disciplined brotherhood that pushes you to rebuild purpose, direction, and daily structure. If you're ready for the next chapter of your mission, click the link in the show notes to join us inside the Missions Purpose Community on School. You are never meant to walk this road alone. If you're a business owner who feels like you're doing everything yourself, this is for you. Our friend, Dr. Elise Rigney, who we trust and have learned from personally over the years put together a free 25 minute training on how she runs multiple businesses with a virtual team that works even while she sleeps. It's the exact three step framework she's used to stop being the highest paid administrative assistant in her own company and actually step into the CEO role. If you're tired of juggling emails, scheduling customer service and a little task that drain your energy, this training will show you how to build a team that handles it for you. It's free, it's practical. and it's waiting for you. Grab your spot through the link in the show notes and start getting your time back. What's up, everybody? Welcome to this week's edition of the On Purpose Podcast, where you know it's our mission to show up each and every week to get you moving, get you thinking, get you questioning. And you're learning from the lives around you and challenging the status quo. And this week, I'm super excited to be joined by Jenny Chan, the co-founder of Pacific Atrocities Education. Her work began when she discovered her grandmother's wartime of artist acts and realized how much of what she had learned through our school system was not reflective in the history that her family experienced. And you guys know I love history. I love studying things. I also love questioning things. And I'm super excited to get Jenny on here to share what she learned about her family, what we can learn from her, and more importantly, what we don't want to forget. So, Jane, welcome to the On-Purpose Podcast, my friend out of you today. speaker-1: I am doing well, thank you so much for having me. speaker-0: It's a privilege to be here and to get to share your story. I want to start by thanking you for choosing to share your story and not to let it remain silent, but be in public with it so we can all learn from it. Because I think the greatest way to not repeat history is to make sure we don't forget about it to begin with. speaker-1: I think so and also what is never again when the first time was never learned So yeah, and it's interesting that like when I was in school and we were learning about World War two We just really learned about like 90 % Hitler and then we watched a movie about Pearl Harbor and I didn't even realize that Pearl Harbor and the occupation of Hong Kong were actually the same war really and ⁓ Yeah, and so that's what got me interested in learning more about World War II in Asia and whatnot. speaker-0: I'm excited, Jenny, to learn from you and to hear what your family experienced. But before we do, I got to see the warm-up questions for you. like to get us thinking, us moving, get everybody ready to go. So are you ready for the warm-up questions? speaker-1: Sure. speaker-0: All right, Jenny, what's something you've learned about yourself lately? speaker-1: I learned that I need to be more patient. We have been, I've been dealing with bureaucrats in terms of like, you know, these paperwork and I called every day and they're like, ⁓ Ms. Chan, you need to stop calling. And we're already on. And I'm like here with like my blood pressure high, you know, I'm like, ⁓ Why can't they get this done already? But yeah, I need to be more patient speaker-0: I love it. What's a small habit of ritual that's been giving you energy lately. speaker-1: Walking my dog, I think my dog is more like my part of life now. I'm so grateful to have such an incredible dog too. I think my dog just like feeds off of my energy too. Like if I'm feeling sad, I can see his face. He's kind of like sad. I'm like feeling kind of, I was like just kind of under this like really fog of sickness and he would just like lay next to me like while I'm in bed, he's like laying on the floor. ⁓ Believe it or not, I found a purebred German shepherd on the side of the road and that's what I have. And it's so incredible to have such a... I feel like my dog is an empath. It's so good to have such a... I feel very blessed to have such an incredible well-behaved dog. speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. And you rescued him? You found him, huh? Yeah. speaker-1: he was dying from parvo. speaker-0: ⁓ wow. speaker-1: Yeah, but here he is. He's healthy. speaker-0: You gotta watch them after they're done with this tonight. speaker-1: Exactly, it's beautiful today. I don't want to waste the sunshine. He's quite upset that I haven't walked him yet. speaker-0: I mean, what's or who's someone in your life that's a bit inspiring or influencing your thinking lately? speaker-1: I have been reading a lot of books lately. ⁓ I think Meureschmeyer, I don't know if you've read his thing on hegemony. What's his name? What's his name? John Merschmeyer, think is one of the very interesting books that I've been reading. I've been reading one of his books about why leaders lie and it's very illuminating. He has a lot of books on hegemony and also like... Especially now that we're so involved in so many regional fights in America right now that I'm just like, wow, know, this is... I need to learn about the reasoning for this. And so yeah, I've been learning a lot from him. speaker-0: What's been one of the things you've learned or takeaways that you're like, ⁓ I hadn't thought of that. speaker-1: Yeah, that leaders are always going to lie to their people. You think that it's going to be a foreign leader who lied to you, but it's actually like nine out of ten times that the domestic leader is more likely to lie to its own people than a foreign leader is lying to other people. speaker-0: Really? What's insane the reason for that is? speaker-1: So because like in, for example, in the democracy, you really need your people's support to, for example, go into a war. And also, if you're campaigning and you're saying, like, oh, we're going to have a war with certain country, then people are not going to vote for you. So you have to tell, promise people low prices, peaceful time, blah, blah, in order to get elected. Then you just kind of do whatever you want. speaker-0: Yeah, that makes that. ⁓ Unfortunately, we thought for it all the time. ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. We just fall for it all the time. you know, we were promised cheap gas. Now gas is like you live in an RV so you can really feel the gas prices, right? speaker-0: I don't come to California. You guys' gas is crazy. speaker-1: Yeah, I know I just passed by a gas station yesterday it was like 649 speaker-0: no. Yeah, well, I'm in Suburna, Arizona right now. It's still expensive, but yeah, we just don't travel as much. You just slow down. speaker-1: How much is it now in Arizona? speaker-0: ⁓ diesel is like 520 gallon. Yeah. Not what you guys are paying. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, we're paying a lot more, think. At least a dollar's a dollar. Yeah, gotta slow down, I think. speaker-0: Yeah. Alright Jane, one last one-up question for you. When you think about the season you're in and this phase of a stage of your life, what word or phrase best describes it? speaker-1: Hmm, the phase of my life, I think it's somewhat more transitional, ⁓ think, you know, ⁓ but I think every phase of life is very transitionary, know, like we, you change a little bit. I mean, like you live in an RV, so you get that, you you go to a different pace or like go through a different like thing. And I feel like because our nonprofit is so small that we're always doing kind of different things and trying out different ways of like doing things. And so then I feel like, you know, we're always transitioning, but in a way, you know, we're transitioning and growing at the same time. speaker-0: Yeah, you and I, I think you're right. I that's true. Life is always about transitioning. I mean, it really never stays the same. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, think about it, right? Like right now, I almost feel like the whole country is transitioning. Maybe when I just look at the gas price, I feel like, wow, it's so crazy. mean, and it's just like, you know, we just don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. And yeah, it's definitely a little bit of a sense of uncertainty. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, I might use to go back to your earlier answer. The fact we are told all these other things versus what's really happening is, ⁓ that's probably the most disheartening thing. also one of reasons why I think your lessons are so important is because we're not always told the truth. What they say, what's what they do. And we can't forget our path. speaker-1: Right, right. definitely. ⁓ speaker-0: So let's talk about that, Jenny. Talk to me about, cause you're right. Like I was, when I was preparing for our conversation, I can, I know so much about World War II and the European theater because it was most of the movies. It was what we were taught in school. And I learned so much as getting ready for our conversation. I hadn't even thought about in Asia and the Asian theater. So talk to us about your early encounters with your family history and how it wasn't matching up to what you were being taught in school. speaker-1: Yeah, so it's interesting because my grandma would always get so upset about like, if I watch anime, for example, or like if I'm reading manga, comic books, and she would tell me that these Japanese people are evil and I would be like, ⁓ you know, there's no way. And I was just thought that she was going through some kind of senile period of her life. And I kind of like ignore what she was saying and ⁓ but she wasn't upset if I'm watching like Winnie the Pooh she's upset about like certain anime like Japanese anime and so then when she passed away I found like ⁓ Her stuff her military yen and also like the rice rationing coupon and I realized that what she was saying probably had some ⁓ Probably had some like there were some legs on what she was saying. And then I read more about it. And like I had a really boring job. So I was reading The Rape of Nanking and like The Rising Sun by John Tolan. And yeah, it's very interesting, like what you learn when you start reading about history, especially. And also like my My education, I think, has only been about like, you know, ⁓ 90 % of it is like Holocaust. And then like, we watched one movie on Pearl Harbor. And I didn't even realize that Pearl Harbor and like what my grandma was describing, were like the same war. And so, and so I, and so it's just interesting that like, we learn little lessons in history, but then we don't learn like the big picture. speaker-0: Hmm. What was, what was your grandma specifically telling you about or, what artifacts does she have for you? speaker-1: Well, when I was a kid, she would tell me things like, ⁓ I remember I really want... I like watching samurai anime and she would be like, ⁓ know, these Japanese people were chopping people's heads. And you know, if you're a kid, you're not going to be like, ⁓ tell me more, you know. You just want to watch your little cartoon. ⁓ And then when I found her like rice rationing coupons and also like military yen, real and I googled more about the military yen. was like people were forced to trade whatever they owned into like ⁓ whatever money they had into this like military yen, which then became like nothing after the war. so So it was like inflating throughout the war, but then by the end of the war, it was worth nothing. so for I think it's, that's something that, and the fact that she kept like a whole box of it, know, even like decades after the war, she probably was holding on to like the hope that one day it will be worth something again. So just living that kind of like, time, I think, and also like, you know, facing that kind of brutality on a daily basis, right? Like if she was telling me on passing that people were chopped, people's heads were being chopped off. I think it must have meant a lot in terms of like her traumatic experience. speaker-0: And so your grandma was in Hong Kong during World War II? Yes. Okay. And for the community members that are listed, not up on World War II history or maybe lacking a little bit or forgotten. So Japan invaded Hong Kong. speaker-1: Yes, right after Pearl Harbor, like eight hours after Pearl Harbor, because if you think about, if you look at a map, Hawaii is actually pretty close to Hong Kong. And so like by Christmas time, by December, that Christmas time, Hong Kong was then handed to Japan. speaker-0: So what did, Jenny, what did finding these materials make you want to learn? speaker-1: more about like my family history and also what had happened in Asia because this is something that, you know, we haven't learned before in, at least in my classroom setting. so then it kind of, and when I was starting then reading like the rising sun and whatnot, I realized that my grandma's experience was not unique in the sense that like 30 million other people died. You know, that's like the old low estimate ⁓ in Asia and that her experience was pretty common and that's kind of the experience that I kind of dismissed and we think about World War II in terms of like 1941 or like you know 1939 to 1945 but what But in like, and then Hong Kong was was occupied between 1941 to 1945. But before that, like even 10 years before Pearl Harbor, if we just swing it back a little bit, there was also the Manchuria ⁓ that was occupied by Japan 1931 until 1945. And so then and those men, people in Manchuria experienced kind of what my grandma experienced. And this is like millions of people who have experienced this kind of wartime occupation and whatnot and we never learn about it. so I started getting more interested and I realized that like the quantum army that had occupied Manchuria was then like the leading force in why Japan had occupied Manchuria in the first place, but there was no literature on the Quantum Army. They might talk about that in a little chapter of a book, but then there's not really a big, huge chunk of literature on it. And so our organization actually researched and published the first book on it about Quantum Army. speaker-0: Really? And what did you learn in your research for that? speaker-1: that so in what we learn about China in terms of like Chinese history is very there's like a huge gap you learn about the opium war and then you learn about the rise of Mao there's like this huge gap and I learned that there must be a reason for that because during this time of China it was like a warlord era basically every warlord that controlled different parts of China were then funded by foreign governments. And then the foreign governments were trying to basically take control of different parts of China or like back different warlords into taking this piece of land. And because it's big enough that they believe that they can slice it into melon and... What I learned is that it's actually very similar if you think about it like the Middle East It's almost like warlord era in in China if you think about it ⁓ and it's ⁓ It's very interesting to think about because you know, we need to learn from history to know about what's happening today speaker-0: I think we also got a question what we're being told. Right? Not just learn it and accept the fact someone tells you is the facts as they are, but understand those are interpreted facts by one side. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. And I think that, like, for example, I was researching about Unit 731, which was like this biological weapons program. And everyone knows about Oswitch, right? Like, we all know about Joseph Mengele, but then we never learned about Unit 731. And I realized that there's a reason for it. It's because, like, after the war, the scientists had made, like, kind of an immunity deal with the American government and they got like, they basically got payout and they were never really prosecuted. ⁓ So that's why like there's like Victor's justice and then there's also this kind of justice where they trade for their own. So even though that Japan didn't win, a lot of their people were able to trade for immunity deal with the Victor. speaker-0: Saucerman Wolbers Unit 731. What was that? speaker-1: Yeah, Unit 731 was basically a biological weapons program that was happening in Japan-occupied Manchuria, and they were doing biological... research basically on humans. ⁓ And so they would capture like Chinese, Russians, because Manchuria so close to Russia, ⁓ and like Koreans, and then they would do like vivid section on them. Vivid section is like doing ⁓ human experimentation without anesthesia, because they believe that if you use anesthesia, they would, ⁓ they would ⁓ it was dumb, dumb down the germs. And so then they were doing research on like, you know, pressure chamber to see how, ⁓ to see how to develop airplanes so that the pilots can survive certain kind of maneuvers in terms of G-force. They were also tying victims to stakes and then just basically on the ground, the anti-testing ground to see how to develop these ceramic flea bombs. ⁓ And so then they were like breeding rats so then they can have fleas and then the fleas would get like plague and then they would put it in these ceramic flea bombs. And at one point they were like incentivizing people to like raise rats so then they can breed more fleas. And then they also, you know, do testing on like syphilis. They would force like a pregnant woman to, you know, they would force like a capture human experimentation kind of person and then they would like put syphilis in him infect him with syphilis basically and then like force him to rape a pregnant woman to see if the syphilis would pass and then they were also like testing anthrax and like glanders and the plague and ⁓ yeah it was that kind of experimentation that was happening in World War II in Asia. speaker-0: And the Japanese were doing that. speaker-1: Yeah, the Japanese were doing that. speaker-0: This is crazy. Did you find, so one the things I love about your mission is either write it somewhere, like it's not to accuse, it's just to document what we know already happened. Right. And that's what means you guys are digitizing over a million pages of archival material. So like the stuff you're talking about, you're, finding documentation for that and you're, you're helping preservers so that people can study it in the future. speaker-1: Mm-hmm, yes. speaker-0: What's that emotionally, what's that been like for you Jenny to find? Man, these are human beings that are treating like science experiments. Like what is that being like for you to sit and wait and ponder? Especially, know, knowing that like my grandma was talking about this, but I didn't know. speaker-1: Good question. Yeah, I think for me, it comes up with a lot of like ethics and also like science advancement questions in terms of like We live in like this day and age where we're going to, you know, we talk about science a lot. We talk about science advancement a lot. We talk about how science is going to advance our society. But then we don't talk about like how science without ethics can go. Just like unit 731, the chief, the director, Ishii Shirō, read the Geneva Convention and was like, wow, this is if they need to like come up with ways to harness, to rule. That means that germs must be so powerful that I should be able to use it to help Japan to win this war. so it kind of is like, emotionally, I'm wondering like how far can human beings go in terms of like winning? And what does it mean to even win, you know, when you have to go through all this kind of... cover-up and also there's so much sacrifice in this so-called winning. ⁓ And at first, it was pretty gross details and I was thinking, man, this is disgusting. But once I looked past through what was happening, I realized that... We don't talk about it, but like people who have been experimented on, right, there was no survivor. And so we need to talk about that more so then things like that don't happen to other people again. speaker-0: How have you processed it knowing? It starts to my, cause that's the thing. Like sometimes we, we, it's not that we don't know or that we don't realize it happened, but it's heavy, right? Like it's, it's, it's heavy stuff is dark stuff. we're just pretending like we don't see it in continued life over here. But once you read it and you're like, okay, I'm going to document this. I'm not like that. I'm going to create an organization that helps. create a place where people can come to read what took place. What's that? What's that like for you to work through yourself? speaker-1: I think. it became some kind of life purpose for me to talk about this. ⁓ Because when I was after I was, I was working at this really boring job. And like, and that's how I started like reading these history books. And then I'm like, wow, why is there and I was trying to look for a job that would like, maybe I can become an analyst or something at like an organization that talks about this. then like, there was no organization that talked about it, you know, and, and ⁓ And then I was like, well, why don't I go find an organization? Like, why don't I create one so then we can continue talking about this? Like, so it's not just like, you know, in a few books that no one read in the last, you know, five years or whatever, we can continue and have this kind of dialogue and like talk about, you know, this part of history, these hidden atrocities that really no one talk about. and make sure that history doesn't repeat. speaker-0: Yeah. So that's such a big thing, man. And that's, that's one of the things that scares me a lot of times is we're quick to forget where we've been because we're trying to get to where we're going so fast and we make the same mistakes over and over. speaker-1: Yeah. And. And it's also interesting too, because if you think about it, right, nowadays people are talking about AI this and AI that. And for in a way, it kind of reminds me of like, you know, unit 731. And also at that time, everyone was talking about like biological weapon and like, you know, biological research this biological research that because Ishiro, the director of unit 731 was able to raise so much money that it became this kind of like... ⁓ obsession for all these scientists who were going through school and who were learning like what had happened, you know, how Ishii Shirou raised so much money. It almost reminds me of this like AI race that we have today, how like technocrats can then, you know, raise and to get to wherever they want to go to, to make money and then to not hear about what happened to humanity in the future. speaker-0: Hmm. think that's such a good point Jenny, right? Like, because we don't forget our past, because we can learn what happened in the Pacific doesn't mean that knowledge only helps us avoid doing the exact same thing in the future. literally can draw parallels like, wait, I saw traits, I saw human behaviors towards each other. in the Pacific here, I'm seeing that again now with the AI revolution, right? You start to see patterns in how we take advantage of each other and how groups can be marginalized or victimized. And I think that's more important. That's the reason we don't want to forget where we've been. speaker-1: Exactly. And I also find it so interesting that like the immunity deal because like I understand, you know, if you just kind of rush over it and whatnot, but then like the immunity deal was what bugged me the most about this research because like they sent like multiple scientists to go look at what Japan was doing over the war and at the end of the day like these scientists like Norbert Fell ⁓ from like Fort Detrick was then like, ⁓ what they were doing is like not something that we cannot do in peacetime US. And so let's just buy this from, you know, formerly our enemy, even though that they cross a moral line. And the moral line was obviously drawn for a reason, right? But because the research already existed, then they just buy it. what, like, I struggle with that thought a lot. What do you think? Like, if that research is already there, should someone just go and purchase it and then use it for their own institute and whatnot. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it's crazy, right? Cause you got Huntsville, Alabama, where they basically brought the Nazi scientists over as well to take advantage of their knowledge and expertise they had while ignoring the ties they had to what they had done over there. Yeah, I don't know. I think Jenny is interesting, right? Cause we want to think like, That could never happen today because we would stand up for ourselves and we wouldn't let other people be treated like that. But then I always go, would we? Would you really? Because I see things like that and then I'm like, are we standing up for things or are we just being like, oh, it's just what politicians do? speaker-1: Yeah, I don't think we're standing up and like even with, you know, with so much of social media, for example, I feel like it gets led to like a wrong direction even, right? Like, you know, Israel's doing whatever to Gaza and then now we're pointing our thing at like targeting like kind of the Jewish population. And I was just saying that like, I tell my friend that if I was Jewish and I go on social media today, I would like, I'll be like, oh my gosh, we're able to stop a government's like action. But then we pointed at, we cast blame on like a wider population. Does that make sense? And so I feel like we like scapegoat a population, but then we're not able to stop our government. And it's interesting because like sure we can criticize our government and whatnot, but what good does it do at the end of the day? ⁓ speaker-0: That's a good question. It does nothing if we keep voting them in. speaker-1: Well, but then it doesn't sound like even voting them is going to like be any different now because, you know, different lobbies and different interest groups are going to buy both sides. They're going to hedge their bets. And so, you know, I think. At this point, we can just learn from history, but then after we learn from history, what is the next part, right? Can we influence our government in any certain way? How can that even be applied for? And now I'm at this phase where I'm just like, let me just focus on my family and do my research and focus on the good in life. It's just... speaker-0: think that's a thing, Jenny, because there is so much good in the world, and there is so much good around each of us if we actually stop and look for that, and we pay attention to it. But to a point earlier, social media politicians, never going to tell you how good things are around you. They're only going to tell you what to be afraid of, what to be scared of, who to not like, who to like. Yeah, exactly. speaker-1: And I think, especially in this age of AI, we should never outsource our thinking to AI. think, ⁓ yeah, I think we need to really read and think for ourselves and like, analyze, you know, speaker-0: Yeah, let me ask you that. I think that's a great, great point for sure. Let me ask you, so how do you, I guess, how do we, how is your approach and gathering these documents and the evidence of what took place? What are you hoping the younger generations get from that? speaker-1: Yes. So that's a great question. We have had like last year, we've had like high school students reach out to us about enrolling in National History Day for about Unit 731. And they won first place in New Mexico. And they were telling me that like their judges who were like history experts had no idea what Unit 731 was. And they didn't think to win, they just wanted to kind of raise awareness of what had happened in World War II in Asia. I think it's interesting because like doing this work, not only do I get to like kind of work on my life's purpose on like finding and documenting and also like making this part of history accessible. But I can also influence like what young people were doing in terms of like their history projects. And also like, ⁓ it's just, it's just, ⁓ very encouraging to see what young people like young people are very open minded and they want to learn more and it's great to see them stumbling on our like website and our social media and to like learn more about global perspective and about global history. speaker-0: So how do you balance global perspective with local action? speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question too. ⁓ Like I was saying about governments earlier, we can't criticize, but there's nothing that's going to change. But I mean, I think like, be kind to your neighbor. That's like one. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: Yeah, that's one thing, right? Like, look out for one another. You know, if you see different weird, you know, license plate going into your neighbor's house, call them. Let them know. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I mean, in a sense, like, don't be afraid to be called Karen because your neighbor might be like, ⁓ shit, you know, my house was almost robbed because my neighbor called me. You know, I was able to check the security camera. Yeah. But like nowadays, because of social media, we're so afraid to be called Karen for some reason. Like, if I see like some weird, you know, that's what happened to my aunt. My aunt was afraid to be called Karen. but she saw like a whole pickup truck like of guys just like going into her neighbor's like house and she didn't call anyone. And then it's happened that her, was a group of men who were like, of juveniles who were like robbing her neighbor's place. And then later she like spent the whole afternoon at the police station as a witness. And I'm like, well, how you call someone? speaker-0: Yeah, that's tough, right? That balance of when to get involved and when to mind your business. But I think what you said is absolutely right, Jenny. I can be aware of what's happening around the world. I can have empathy and feel things for people around the world and what they're going through. But I can really be kind to my neighbor and make their day. I can be kind to the people at the store. I can be kind to the people I interact with in my circle, in person. and maybe change their day for the better. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. speaker-0: So what, let me ask this and then we'll kind of move on. But why do you think the Asian Pacific atrocities are so underrepresented in our education system of what we teach our kids? speaker-1: I think this Cold War narrative, it goes back to politics because then they need to like teach that China is bad during the rise of Mao, right? And so then, and it's so interesting to me too, because if you think about it, like Chinese people were excluded from this country, there was like, anyone can come to this country at this point in 1882, except for the Chinese, right? And so then by 1882, Chinese were excluded. And then by the time Pearl Harbor happened, China is our number one ally. then during Cold War, they're like, we don't talk to these people again. ⁓ We don't want to talk about these people, even though that they were like our wartime ally. think it's just interesting to look at it in that perspective. And then from Cold War perspective, like they even went as far as to bringing like Nazi scientists into the US for space program, right? And then they had a lot of things that like happened like, ⁓ they even gave Japan the Japanese scientists immunity deal for Dietrich science program. so then it kind of is like this continuing, this continuation of like this narrative change. And like to your point earlier, like you need to be careful of what is being fed to us in narratives. And like for me, for example, I cannot trust anything that came out of the 70s. feel like Yeah, was a time when Cold War was going so strong that like if you read something from the 70s, you really need to like think about it twice. speaker-0: Hmm. That's such a good point. I hadn't even really thought about that, but you're right. It fits a narrative. Because after World War II, Japan becomes our ally. So we don't want people to think negatively about their government and China becomes the enemy again. speaker-1: Yeah. Yes. And I think it's also, yeah, the narrative perspective and also like... You know, what gets painted as a villain, what gets painted as like good guys nowadays is really, it's really, it's really scary. You know what I mean? Like we don't even know who are the good guys, who are the bad guys anymore in a sense. And if you watch Marvel movies, right? Like the bad guys and good guys are always so like black and white, but then in reality it's almost like everyone is kind of in a gray zone. speaker-0: So as you study your work, Jenny, and as you gather documents, what do you see happening in today's world that reminds you of what you're reading and what you're gathering already? speaker-1: Like I was saying earlier, scientific advancement without like ethics. And also like... just, you know, the greed that leads to war and also like this discrimination of like certain race or like people that never goes away. Like, as humans, we really like to like, generalize ⁓ a big group of people. And ⁓ it's Yeah, and also I learned more about the more I learn about governments, the more I'm just like, I'm becoming a libertarian. ⁓ It's just like, okay, so like in 1931, like the OSS already knew that they were doing human experimentation and whatnot, and they never did anything, right? And it's also interesting, like our government knows so much, but then they don't tell us anything. Like in a way that almost reminds me of Epstein, like our government already knew, but then they would redact it and keep it from us. It's just crazy. speaker-0: So what, what is it? So what biggest race right now, as as I read some of your stuff is just trying to preserve documents before they deteriorate and they're no longer effective to read or to, to house. So why are you coming across these documents and how do you do people, if they have stuff like this, that would be of interest to your organization, how do they get it to you? speaker-1: I actually go to the National Archives and scan a lot of those documents, our primary sources, and a lot of the pages are very flicky because what we use in World War II are kind of like flicky compound paper, like they just use whatever that they can find and make it into paper, versus like even Civil War is more like cotton mixed paper. ⁓ And so even Civil War material is in better shape than things that we were scanning from World War II, and I find that very interesting. ⁓ And so that was like our race to preserve a lot of these paper. And like I was talking to the National Archives and because they have no funding, know, we send trillions and trillions to wars, but we have no funding to even preserve primary source documents. ⁓ which then led to us like really fanatically scanning like a million pages. And when you go to like the National Archive, it's not like they put everything so neatly like, hey, I just give you a topic and you go grab whatever for me. It's like, it's always such a struggle. like... you can be trying to find something about POW and then it could be either in the OSS file or like in whatever file. like I was so naive the first time I went to the National Archives, I thought it would take me two weeks and then I can like already, you know, walk out with a USB drive. And then they're like, no, that's not how we work. You need to buy a camera. You need to buy this kind of camera and then you need to like scan it. And then up costing us like six trips to the National Archives to like scan. things that are related to biological research. ⁓ And then I started putting in FOIA requests for Dietrich documents. And those are also very frustrating because 80 % would get rejected. And they would just be like, ⁓ this is still sensitive information. I'm like, how can it be still so sensitive? It's like from the 1950s. so yeah, it's just what earlier what I said, I'm starting to become more of a libertarian just from that. just from dealing with bureaucrats. speaker-0: Yeah, we think so for the community members She's filing floating of Information Act request, right? Because we passed that law years ago that after a certain time documents or algebra will be released and you got to file a request To get them and they're supposed to turn them over. So speaker-1: Sometimes it takes two to three years for them to scan through and to see if there's sensitive information. speaker-0: from the 40s and 50s. way up. That's just 18 years old now. speaker-1: Yeah, and so even from that, you know, cannot get information from like 80 and whatever years ago. what can you, I mean, think about it, it's kind of a... It's kind of difficult dealing with government, to say the least. speaker-0: So what do you, Janet, what do you hope future generations learn from the work you guys are doing? speaker-1: I hope that they learn from like all sides of humanity. I mean the good and the bad and also like what had happened in Asia during World War II because we never talk about it. And also learn about like who's telling, who's crafting the narrative. What kind of political incentive is being done to craft this kind of narrative for people. speaker-0: I think that's such a good question. That's one I, honestly, I wish I'd asked myself when I was younger learning is who benefits me, who benefits from me believing this story. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: Right? Like everybody that tells you a story, there's a benefit to them if you believe that story. speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. And then like, yeah, you need to really think about it because you can't trust. Like I was reading recently about operation Mockingbird. All these like news, news organizations are called entertainment because they actually don't push any real stories. They write this narrative and this bomb and like CIA did a lot of terrible things in like the sixties and the seventies and even the fifties and they don't. talk about that in the news because CIA was sponsoring the news. speaker-0: Right? What was Operation Mockingbird? speaker-1: Basically, to have ⁓ the media fit the narrative of the government, what the government wants people to believe. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: more into it, it's crazy. it's absolutely, I'm like, wow, I'm like, I can't even turn on my news stories anymore because I'm like, I don't know if these people are bought and pay for. And that's why I listened to like podcasts like yours, you know, because I'm not sure if you're actually paid for by CIA. I hope not. speaker-0: If I am, we need to pig more, man. I need more. We need to go to my contract. Well, Jenny, we appreciate it. Let me ask you this as we get ready to wrap up so you can get your dog for a walk. I don't want him getting too mad at you. When we think about the legacy of your work, what's most important to you? speaker-1: I'm still young, so it's hard for me to think about the and whatnot. But I think the truth about what had happened in history is really important to me. speaker-0: to choose what happened to you and families like yours and so many others. And I just want to thank you for the work you're doing, for the research you're putting into it, to the unbiased, like these are the documents, reform what you want and draw your own conclusions, approach your giving, and for having the courage to share it all, to not just hold it to yourself, but to share it so that everybody else can learn from it as well. speaker-1: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. speaker-0: Yeah, work with our audience, connect with you, Jenny, and support the mission and learn what you're up to next. speaker-1: Yeah, they can find us on pacifictrocities.org or on YouTube Pacific Front and Toad. speaker-0: All right, Jay, thank you so much for joining us. Keep up the good work. I can't wait to meet or support you and see what you come up with next. speaker-1: All right, thank you so much. speaker-0: When you're training with purpose, your fueling can't be an afterthought. That's why I use NeverSecond, the simplest, most reliable system I have found for staying energized, hydrated, and steady through their long efforts. Their C-Series carbs take the guesswork out of performance. No stomach drama, no complicated mixing, just clean, consistent fuel that actually works when the miles get long. If you want to train with more intention and recover without feeling wrecked, check out NeverSecond. Click the link in the show notes to get dialed in. And remember team, life is far too short to live any other way than on purpose. We'll see you all again next week.