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One Medicine: How Human and Animal Health Can Save Lives · Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond

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Welcome to the Paws Between Us podcast, co-hosted by best friends Natalie
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and Sasha. We're lifelong animal lovers and proud pet parents.
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Between us, we share our lives with cats Murray
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and Weaver and Betty the pug.
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In each episode, we dive into the joys and challenges of living with our furry
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companions, sharing honest stories, laughter, and sometimes a few
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tears. We'll also bring in special guests, people who are making
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the world a better, kinder place for pets. Who'll be sharing expert-backed
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tips and proven practices for keeping your pets happy, healthy, and loved.
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Please note, some episodes may touch on sensitive topics or contain strong language.
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Listener discretion is advised.
0:45
Good morning, Natalie. Hello, Sasha. How are you?
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Yeah, not too bad. Thank you. Enjoying the summer?
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Well, it's nicely cooler today, so I'm pretty loving
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it. Uh, we've had a couple of cooler days. We've had no damn rain,
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not here anyway, but it's cooler. Yeah. The grass, like when I'm
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out on walks with Betty, the grass in the parks and just
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looks really parched. I've seen a few people recently having
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left bowls of water outside their homes,
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assume that's for kind of wildlife. And I was in
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a cafe the other day where there was a dog bowl outside for dogs,
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obviously, and there was a pigeon. Enjoying a drink from
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it. It's not just cats and dogs and foxes and things that are getting thirsty.
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I think the birds as well. Um, so really nice to see that. It's quite
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sweet. I tried to get a photo, but it moved before I, I did,
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but it was having lots of fun in this bowl of water. Aww.
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Yeah, we leave out, we leave out bowls of water for our
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wildlife and hedgehogs. We've got hedgehogs, we've got like about 4 hedgehogs in the garden.
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Hedgehogs. Oh, that's really sweet. Do you still have your wildlife cam
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in the garden? Um, yeah, we do. So we pick up a few things occasionally.
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We've got a couple of little meeses in the end of the garden because we
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live near fields. We get quite a few different types of bits and bobs.
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And like, we have had a rat before, but it's never come that close.
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But again, because we live near fields, it's to be expected. But yeah, now we've
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got hedgehogs. We've had some little hoglets, tiny ones.
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They're so sweet. Um, yeah, and plenty of wood pigeons
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and all kinds of birds. So we leave it— yeah, leave a lot of water
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out. We've got a little birdbath thing to make sure they can drink and splash
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in. That's so sweet. 'Cause I know you've picked up things overnight
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on your cam, haven't you? Where you've seen things in your garden. Yeah,
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we had a badger months ago. Not seen one since.
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It's usually just like, uh, the hedgehogs now and the mice pop
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up occasionally. Little field mice, I think they are. I'm not sure. Yeah, but we
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did have a badger ages ago. And we had a fox actually once. 'Cause you
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don't often see foxes here. I know they seem to be more common in cities,
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but There was a fox that leapt over the fence. I didn't realise they could
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jump so high. Really? You see, foxes are everywhere here in the
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city. Yeah. They're sort of just commonplace now. You just, every night we
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take Betty for a walk, there's a few foxes about.
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You kind of get to know them and haven't given them names yet
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though, but yeah. Well, currently Murray and Weaver are chasing off
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the neighbour's new kitten. So, because they don't go out as often and their
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cat's an outdoor cat, it keeps kind of hanging around in our garden because our
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garden's a bit more kind of got bushes and foliage to hide
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in. And our birds come a lot here, whereas there's no birds next door.
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So it's sitting under the bird feeder, but it's, it can quite enjoy itself for
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quite a long, like most of the day because our cats are indoors except when
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we let them out. So like we opened the doors and Murray spots the
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cat, he's after it, chasing it all around the garden. But luckily the
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neighbor's cat could jump over the fence. Murray can't. So she escapes
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and it's all fine, but I'm like, oh, Be friends, Murray, stop chasing.
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It's his garden though. Yeah. Do you think it's more territorial
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or is it more like, I'm chasing you 'cause this is fun and I want
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to be friends? I think, yeah, probably a little bit of both because they
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were seeing each other through the glass doors when the doors were shut
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and it looked fine. There was no growling and no hissing. And I think because
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Murray runs out, the cat runs off, so then it becomes a chase.
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So I think it's more about play. Yeah, I think it's
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just that. I don't think it's too much aggression or— No,
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I can't see them as aggressive pussycats, but how are they both doing?
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Yeah, fine. Oh, well, I say this, I do this
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all the time and I talk about it a lot. I'm trying to get them
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on some more like sort of nutritious, healthy biscuits
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that have kind of got like more real food in
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them. And I suppose they're kind of like natural based and stuff like that.
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But it's upset Murray's tummy so much that we've
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gone very slowly with it. He's had a really bad reaction. He was having smaller
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and smaller poos and now he's literally got diarrhoea. He seems all right in himself.
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We're keeping an eye on him, but I think we're just gonna have to revert
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back to his biscuits that he had before. But the reason we took him off
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them was because his poos weren't perfect. We were like, there's something wrong with the
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biscuits. I think I said this before, the wet food's okay, but the biscuits are
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causing him some upset, tiny bit of upset. But not as bad as these.
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I just thought, get him on some more natural food, it might actually help his
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tummy. And if these food— these biscuits have got probiotics in and prebiotics,
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and I thought that actually that might help as well, but it seems it's upsetting
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more. So we're either after going to go very, very, very, very slow with them
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and introduce them, which we already are doing, but— or we're gonna have to
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just revert and try something different. It's such a nightmare because you just don't know
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really what's causing it, what to kind of take out, and plus then he won't
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eat things. So then you're like, I'm trying to do the best for you,
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but you won't like that, or you won't eat that. So I've
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kind of made a bit of a rod for my own back in a way,
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but we were trying to just get him sort of perfect poos
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and healthy. Weaver seems fine, but Murray's obviously got more
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of a sensitive tummy. And does he need the dry biscuits?
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Is that important to the diet? The main reason
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is it's good for their teeth because it helps to kind of remove the plaque
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and all that kind of stuff. It also helps for them to sort of free
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feed during the day. We measure out an amount and then they can just go
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and graze and eat when they like. So it stops us having to kind of
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be around and give smaller wet meals. Ah,
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okay. Yeah. So it's a bit of a, yeah, a bit of a balancing act.
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So it can be quite helpful. Um, yeah.
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Yeah. I dunno what we're going to do. Yeah. It's a tricky one. And then
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do you try other brands, um, other biscuits or do you,
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do you, I mean, I, I used to give Betty dry and wet food,
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but then realised that it was the dry food
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that was making her put on weight. Like she
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was getting a lot bigger, too big for her frame.
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Um, and pugs, as you know, can easily put on weight.
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And since I've cut the kibble out and just give her the wet food,
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which has still got all the nutrients in, I've managed to keep her weight at
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a healthy level. And it might just have been that with the kibble and the
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wet food together, it was just too much. Maybe if I actually reduced
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the wet food and reduced the kibble, it would be okay. But I had this
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theory. I don't know whether it was true, but it, she has lost some weight.
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Um, but also because she had quite a few teeth removed,
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I just thought maybe it's a bit harder for her to eat and you don't
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want her to gorge feed where she's just hoovering down these kibbles without actually
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like chewing them.
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But yeah, she's not got many teeth now. I thought softer foods may be easier,
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but yeah, what you say completely makes sense. I get that. So do you just
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give her 2 meals a day or? Yeah. Yeah. Do morning
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and evening. And at one point I was giving her a little bit of kibble
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at lunchtime to sort of see her through to the afternoon
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or the evening. 'Cause I think as dogs get older, they do maybe need to
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eat Um, little and often. So I have kind of introduced
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that and I've seen a little bit of a difference because come 5 o'clock she
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is ready for food. She knows it's dinner time and she's getting restless
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and barking. Actually, if I give her a bit of lunch, it's,
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she lasts a bit, a bit longer. And that just
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fits in more with our, with our lifestyle and our schedule. It's not always home
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at 5 o'clock to be feeding Betty, although she'll still be at daycare.
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But anyway, yeah, it's, it's all good and she's doing, she's doing
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well. Um, went out for a lovely long walk today. The will
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is really strong with Betty, even though she struggles to walk. She is still determined
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to walk. I put her in a stroller and she's barking and scratching to get
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out of it. So I take those moments as a positive sign
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that she wants, wants to walk. And then on the days that you could just
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tell she's a bit tired and just, yeah, yeah, it's not into it,
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she'll happily sit in the stroller and I don't push it. So I make the
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most of the mornings and the evenings when she is happy
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to walk, but with the heat, it has been hard this summer getting up super
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early to do kind of 7 AM walks through the park, which are actually beautiful.
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It's really, really nice to be in the park
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when it's quiet. There's no one around. You see the wildlife, see all the sort
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of ducks in the ponds, and yeah, you just get a different perspective
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sometimes when you're out and about a bit earlier. Yeah. And have
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you spotted an old Gallagher for a while? Liam.
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Liam. Liam. I haven't seen Liam for a while. Liam, if you're listening,
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I wanna bump into you. Liam. Oh yeah, I have bumped into Liam Gallagher a
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few times on our walks, which has been lovely, and I've met his dog.
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It's been really nice to see him. So, yeah, but no, not for a few,
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not for a few months. Goddammit. Do you do a visit?
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I do a, yeah, a bump into Liam. Oh, so today.
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Yeah. Today, Nat, tell us about Humanimal, who we are going to
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be speaking to today, 'cause I know you are closely involved with them. So yeah.
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Tell us a bit about them. Yeah. Yeah. So I am
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on, um, volunteer for the Humane Animal Trust. I'm on their Public Guardian
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Involvement and Engagement Board, which is basically,
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um, yeah, the public and people who have
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animal companions getting involved in some of their work and sharing their experiences.
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But the Humane Animal Trust, yeah, I've kind of been involved maybe like 6,
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7 months or so. Um, had a few meetings. I'm just trying
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to get my feet under the table a little bit and understand a little bit
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more about what we're doing in our role. So Alex, who's coming in
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later on, will tell us much more about it, but basically their purpose really
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is to drive like collaboration between doctors.
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So, so doctors who treat humans, vets who look
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after animals and other researchers in both those areas to come
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together to benefit humans and animals in terms
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of medical progress and like finding new treatments and new
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drugs and diagnoses for both of us, but not at the expense
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of the animals, very clearly set And Alex does touch on this, will probably
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touch on this, that it's not about animal testing.
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It's to remove animal testing and any of their work they're doing will not involve
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animal testing. So it's about finding animals who are patients who are already poorly
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and taking them through like a clinical trial to find out
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what will work best for them and learn about
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that in terms of how it might benefit a human population as well and other,
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and other animals. So that's kind of like it in a nutshell. I'm still
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learning and I think probably wouldn't have put that across very, very well. And I
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think Alex will do a lot better, better job for us on that. But yeah,
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I'm kind of involved in the public side because basically it's just about
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making sure that what they're doing actually is
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what the public and what animal guardians want and
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will be engaged with and, and kind of support.
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Um, and the reason I got involved is just because it's quite close to my
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heart because Obviously we even went through a very strange,
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well, I consider quite a strange medical situation
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and it was very worrying. And I just thought, I want more. This can't be
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the end of the road. I want a diagnosis. I want more treatments. I want
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more expertise in this. And I thought this would be a great thing for me
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to get involved in and try and help further the knowledge sharing across
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all healthcare really, so that we can all
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advance things for our pets and for us as humans.
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So yeah, so I think Alex will be coming in and she'll tell us a
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little bit more about what she does, like the science behind it, because it's quite
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complex, and, and maybe like what they're hoping to
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achieve and how well they're doing so far at getting to that goal.
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Yeah, hopefully it'd be interesting. They're all very massive animal lovers. Everybody who's there is
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obviously like either a pet mum, pet dad,
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are in, in the veterinary world, or they are kind of
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in the ethical welfare of animals. They're all kind of engaged
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in all that sort of work and are massive animal advocates. So we're all
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coming together with our love for animals to just try and improve the lives.
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The Animal Trust as well, interestingly, for those who may not know,
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was set up by Professor Noel Fitzpatrick, who is
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Super Vet on the TV. And he's done some amazing things and really
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advanced like medicine for animals. Everybody who
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watches the programme will know like how, how he adores
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his, his animals, his cats, his dogs. He always talks about them and he
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set this up quite a few years ago. So, um, yeah, I think
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it's brilliant that they're, uh, they've got, they've managed to pull all this together and
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hopefully they'll do some amazing things in the years to come. Yeah,
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no, it sounds amazing. And yeah, like you say, he had that, um,
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early vision many years ago about what he wanted to achieve
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and how he set this organisation up. And I love him. I've read some of
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his books. Oh, cool. So yeah, great. Really,
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really excited to hear about an organisation that's trying to make the
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world a better place for our pets. And yeah, good to emphasise
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the fact that we're not talking about animal testing at all here. It's very
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different, um, to the clinical trial work that HumAnimal
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are doing. So yeah, let's, shall we, shall we invite Alex
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in and, and have a chat? Yeah, let's do it.
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Hello, we're here with a new episode of Paws Between
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Us. We're here with Alex from the Humane Animal Trust. So excited.
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Um, as we've just said, I've been involved with them a little while, so still
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learning, but, um, be great to get Alex's more in-depth knowledge on what
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they're doing and the subject matter. So we're here to introduce the organisation and
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the concept of warm medicine. The Humane Animal Trust, interestingly, was set
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up or founded by Noel Fitzpatrick. And some of you may know him as Super
14:45
Vet on TV. But in today's episode, we'll be talking to Alex to understand a
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little bit more about the close connection between human and animal health,
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how both medical worlds can collaborate to save more lives,
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and how this approach is kind of working towards a more kinder, progressive future
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for medical advancements. Would you say that's right, Alex? Welcome.
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I like that. Yeah. Thank you very much for having me. It's nice
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to be here. Nice to see you. Yeah. Welcome, Alex. Thank you. Alex,
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tell us a little bit actually about your background first, like, and your
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involvement in the Humanimal Trust. Okay. So I,
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I'm from the human side originally. So trained to
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be a scientist in kind of human medical research,
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physiology, stroke, That kind of thing. And then I did
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that for a bit and then I realised that actually I really liked talking and
15:35
communicating about science more than doing the
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science. So I moved into more science communication. And then from
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that, I've worked with like a few different charities, mostly small
15:46
ones and companies around science communication and just
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being involved in outreach and that kind of thing. And I came, got involved
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with Human Animal Trust, I think it was 2015 when I
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came on board as a freelancer. Uh, and was, have been in and out
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involved with them ever since. Um, because it's just such a
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great organisation. Brilliant. And, uh, I recently
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came on as the science and research outreach
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manager for them, uh, just in April this year. So I'm
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newly employed, but have been around for
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quite a long time and it's been lovely to watch how it's grown. And somebody
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once You just asked me recently, why did you take the job? And I was,
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I didn't, hadn't really thought about it. And I just thought, I just said,
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'cause it's like the funnest job that I've ever had. Oh,
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amazing. Oh, that's good. 'Cause it's, it's quite a,
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like a, not a heavy topic, but it's quite a serious topic. So the fact
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that it's been, it's enjoyable for you is amazing. That's really good. It's great.
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And I just think it's such an important topic and so interesting because it's
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not really known about. People don't really think about
16:56
it. And then as soon as you mention it, people either go, what? Or they
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go, oh my God, that makes loads of sense and you have sort of,
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people can either straight away get it or don't really get it.
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And there's just so much potential there in so many different ways
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and there's just, just really like it. So yeah. Well, that's good
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because yeah, I hadn't thought of it really
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well. I didn't know the Human Animal Trust existed,
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but was thinking in that way, I think, and was like,
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I really wanna know more about like the health advancements.
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Actually, let's not go into it too much yet. So tell us a little
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bit more about the trust and its kind of mission and the things it's here
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to do. Let's, let's talk about that and then we can go into the nuances
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of it a little bit more. Okay. So the trust is here primarily to
17:42
promote One Medicine. Okay. And not many people know what One Medicine
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is, although more people know now since the trust has been around.
17:50
Good. Doing the job. Exactly. But One Medicine is
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basically quite an old concept. Like I think
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the traditional history of it was This bloke called Calvin Schwab
18:02
invented it or talked about it in like the 1900s.
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It was around that time. Okay. And it's all about how nowadays
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we know that there's vet medicine, medicine for animal patients,
18:15
and we know that there's human medicine, medicine for human patients. But back
18:19
then, actually, the 2 disciplines were much closer in how they worked together.
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And our whole ethos is to say we could have more closeness around
18:28
that for the benefit of animal and human patients. We could
18:31
have more collaboration between doctors and vets and the researchers
18:35
and the professionals around the, around, that are all involved in
18:39
working in human and animal health. We could learn from each other a
18:43
bit more, and we could basically do that for the benefit of
18:46
both animals and humans. So our whole thing is
18:50
to try and, well, it started off as kind of building awareness of
18:54
One Medicine and saying, 'cause it's a lot of people going, what is One Medicine?
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And One Medicine is kind of catching on a bit more now,
19:01
uh, which has been helped by the One Health, whole One Health thing as well.
19:04
So it also moves into showing, but how do we, well, showing how One
19:08
Medicine can help and also how do we do One Medicine?
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How does that actually, what does that actually look like? How do you actually get
19:15
doctors and vets to work together? How do you actually get research
19:19
to happen that involves both sides that will, is gonna help animals and
19:23
humans at the same time? And also why. Why do we do that?
19:28
A lot of that kind of thing. And as part of that, we,
19:31
uh, we fund some research projects. We fund a little, a couple
19:35
of little research projects. We're doing one this year called the Connections Awards.
19:39
And then we also fund, at the minute we're funding a big research project,
19:42
which is about cancer. Uh,
19:46
and it's called the Cancer Discovery Fund. And that just started earlier this year and
19:49
that's a 3-year project. So that's really exciting. And we also do
19:53
little bits of education and outreach and awareness and just
19:57
generally promotion of One Medicine and investigating new
20:01
areas where we can help. How can One Medicine be involved in
20:04
this? And is there a room, an area for it? Oh,
20:07
it's such a shame that like, well, it feels a shame that if it was
20:10
talked about in the early 1900s, it's taken till now or
20:14
like very recently to bring it back. Like, oh, what a wasted
20:18
time. Probably all this tape and all these regulations that have
20:21
taken it away. Or it's almost like got so specialized,
20:26
right? We've all got so specialized in what we do because
20:31
we— I think that's just the way the human— humans work,
20:35
is we just like to get more and more specialized and more and more specialized
20:38
and more and more specialized. And then we slightly forget the, the beginning, the whole
20:41
aim, which was to improve health of everybody.
20:45
And humans and animals are so connected in everything that we do.
20:49
We live together, you know, we do everything. You can't improve the
20:53
health of one without improving the health of the other. Like, you can't just just
20:56
focus on one and it, we just kind of forget that cuz we all just
20:59
get in our little silos and get on with things. I remember when I was
21:02
doing research, looking back at like thinking, I'm doing this in
21:06
my little tiny, tiny little speciality. How do I
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know that someone else isn't doing that somewhere else? Like, how do I even know
21:13
that? And you can go and look through all the literature and it's easier
21:17
now online. There's loads more online, but there must be other people coming at this
21:21
from a different angle. Yeah. And how do I find those people? And yeah,
21:25
that's what research has always been about. It's going to conferences and
21:29
talking to other people. And, but then if you're
21:32
all just going to the same conferences, the human doctors are going to
21:36
the human conferences and the vets are going to the vet conferences, we're not talking.
21:40
So how do you get that bigger cross-disciplinary knowledge?
21:44
And that just goes 'cause you just get stuck in your little thing. Yeah.
21:47
And carry on with it. And just a question there on that, is there like
21:51
particular disease areas or treatments where
21:54
there is a connection between human and animals.
21:57
So I recently discovered that my dog had been prescribed some tablets
22:02
for her stomach that I have also been prescribed more recently.
22:06
'Cause when I picked up the prescription, I was like, oh, I think I've already
22:09
got some of these. And yeah. Yeah. Because I've been giving them to my dog.
22:13
Yeah. So I now have double the amount
22:17
because I've got my prescription and hers from the vet. But yeah. Any areas
22:21
where there are those sort of shared challenges when it comes to
22:25
health? I think that happens quite a lot. I think,
22:29
I mean, I'm not a vet, but I think there is a lot of,
22:32
um, overlap in the health challenges that the vets
22:36
see compared to the challenges that the doctors see. But like cancer
22:40
is a massive one. And that's also an area of
22:43
work where One Medicine actually has made quite a lot of progress.
22:47
Right. Excellent. Not in this country as much,
22:51
starting to happen, but more in America. And it's
22:55
not really called one medicine, but we can talk about that a bit later if
22:58
you want. But cancer's a big one. And then chronic diseases.
23:02
We're all living in the same environment. Mm-hmm. And we're all kind
23:06
of living in similar ways. We're affected by similar environmental
23:10
toxins. Like, uh, we just funded a very small project
23:15
from somebody in Portugal actually, who was looking Can
23:18
we see what's happening with environmental toxins?
23:21
Can we predict if we measure them in cat wee, can we predict
23:25
how they're also affecting humans? Have we got stuff that's around that's
23:28
affecting our companion animals at the same time as it's affecting
23:32
us? And what can we do about that instead of just thinking about humans?
23:36
What about all of us that's in that household? We're all affected by these similar
23:41
situations. Yeah. So there's that side and then there's, yeah,
23:44
there's, there's so much, there's like mental health and that kind of
23:48
thing as well. Just everybody. Affected because we're all so connected.
23:52
Yeah. That's so interesting. Is, is,
23:55
is the science, the biology similar?
23:59
You know, so like, I mean, I'm sure it's not in every instance, but I
24:03
don't, I don't know how much you know, but like, yeah, a cancer in a
24:06
human, a particular cancer, does it do the same in an animal?
24:11
And is it like, and so effectively the treatment,
24:14
I know the treatments sometimes are the same. But you know,
24:17
the progression that we make in human med— this is where I come from,
24:20
the progression in human medicine, it's obviously what seems to be way
24:24
in advance of the opportunities for pets. And I'm like,
24:27
oh, why can't we do more for our animals and give more treatment options
24:31
that are— but would that work? Do you know if the biology's the same?
24:34
Yeah. So that's the thing is we are
24:38
not saying that the biology is exactly the same. It's obviously not for every
24:42
animal. I mean, and I include humans as an animal.
24:45
Yeah. Yeah. Like we're all slightly different,
24:49
but there are so many, there are a lot of remarkable similarities
24:54
between the, in the same diseases between the different species.
24:58
And these are kind of being discovered more and more
25:01
as well as we get more molecular biology knowledge and we get
25:05
more genetics knowledge and we are looking at the cells. I mean,
25:08
we've always been looking at cells, but we're looking at them in much more detail
25:11
now. And in the, and also as vet medicine progresses
25:16
and we have more understanding about how these diseases behave
25:20
in animals versus in humans. Um, so yeah,
25:24
the, the cancer project that's on a,
25:27
it's a type of melanoma that it affects your head and your neck
25:30
and it kind of, I think you get like tumours in your mouth or in
25:33
your nose and your sinuses. And that affects humans.
25:37
It's very rare in humans. It's, it makes up 1 in 3,000 cancers,
25:41
basically. 1 in 3,000 will be this type of melanoma. But it actually also affects
25:46
many of our companion animals. So it affects dogs, cats, horses, I think.
25:50
And it's actually a bit more common in, in dogs. I think it's 1 in
25:53
every 100 cancers is this type of cancer.
25:56
Wow. And researchers are finding that they develop very similarly.
26:01
Yeah. They have similar horrible outcomes,
26:04
like patients don't do very well with it. It's very difficult to catch early.
26:07
It's very difficult to treat. And that got very similar
26:11
molecular makeup, very similar ways that they grow.
26:14
And so, actually, what's happening with this cancer project at the minute is that the
26:19
researchers, I think they've already developed a test before we funded
26:23
them, and now they're hoping to see
26:26
if they can use this test to determine whether a type of
26:30
treatment, I think it's an immunotherapy treatment, which uses your immune system
26:34
to kind of try and beat the cancer or
26:38
work against the cancer. They've developed this test and they're gonna
26:41
see if they can use it on dog and human patient samples to
26:45
see if they can use the test to determine whether this type
26:49
of tumour will actually work with this type of treatment. So it's a way of
26:52
trying to make sure that both animals and human patients
26:56
get treated quicker. And that's come about because there is
27:00
this similar biology. And there's obviously other diseases
27:04
where there is less similar biology, or where there are some overlapping
27:08
similarities. I remember sepsis is
27:12
a thing where there is, that's the condition where
27:16
you can, I think you can have really serious consequences quite quickly with it.
27:20
It's essentially a blood infection, I think, is where you get a large infection
27:25
that can shut down your body very quickly, and it's very difficult to detect.
27:29
And I remember watching a talk about it where there are
27:33
big similarities between different species and trying to spot when
27:37
sepsis is happening in humans or in animals.
27:41
But also, there are big differences in how the sepsis progresses.
27:45
I think that's right. I may be wrong. But there's definitely differences in either how
27:48
it progresses or how you can spot it, depending on the age of the animal
27:52
and the age of the human. So, it's not
27:57
blanket, we're all the same and we need to, you know, develop a drug that
27:59
works in one that works in another. Yeah. And we should do this. It's more
28:03
about saying there are overlaps and there are real low-hanging
28:07
fruit that we could work with to develop some really good
28:12
ways, new ways of treating humans and also importantly
28:17
the animals. Yeah. And that is starting to
28:21
happen, like I was saying before, in America, especially around cancer. So there
28:25
is a thing called compassionate comparative oncology, which is
28:29
essentially saying we can learn from animals and humans
28:33
and figure it out together about how best to treat cancer.
28:37
Um, and really, One Medicine, we kind of advocate for that
28:41
as well as at the same time making sure that the animals get
28:46
the treatment, get the benefit of helping out.
28:58
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about this, 'cause it's, it's not about a
29:02
test, like giving an animal a cancer. It's about treating
29:07
the animal that already is dealing with this condition and helping
29:10
that to get better. That's right, isn't it? Exactly. It's about giving, helping animal
29:15
patients who already have the cancer. So, um,
29:18
a lot of my experience of it comes from watching what's happening in America,
29:21
where you have a few animal patients, usually dogs,
29:25
Usually dogs still at the minute. And that is something that happened
29:29
that somebody was just talking about recently where it was like, why don't
29:33
we have more stuff for cat patients? And cat
29:36
patients come with their own challenges, bless them. Okay.
29:39
Okay. Maybe we can talk about that in a minute. I love
29:43
cats. But, um, you know, for some reason it seems to be canine
29:48
patients where it has taken off a bit more in America. Like, so basically
29:52
you'll have a new drug treatment and the animal patients can
29:56
try out this new treatment, and that means that they get treatments that actually work
30:00
for them, which there wouldn't be anything for them. So it is still a clinical
30:04
trial. Yeah. And through, the animal patient
30:08
can then get access to this new treatment, whilst the human benefit
30:12
is that then they can get a bit more data of how it works.
30:15
You know, see what's going on. They don't need to use
30:19
so many animal models. To have a look because you're already
30:23
getting some data from the, the real case, animal patients who are
30:27
also then hopefully gaining some benefit. Sometimes it doesn't work.
30:31
Yeah. But then that data that can then be transferred much,
30:34
basically a bit quicker into the human patient trials.
30:39
Mm-hmm. And in that way, there have been quite a few
30:42
little drugs that have been, that have come through the pipeline, especially in America.
30:47
To, that have been helping. And one thing that we're, one thing that we were
30:51
wondering about is, but then with these drugs,
30:54
how many of them then go on to get licensed for the animal patient
30:58
as well? And that's something we are not sure about. Okay. We're kind of having
31:01
a look at. Do you think that'll take a little while to come
31:05
through because of the process, or is it just a
31:08
case of tracking and you doing a bit more kind of digging and finding those
31:11
trails out? Yeah, it's probably not.
31:15
Not, yeah, bit of both. And just not, again,
31:18
is this, it's probably a bit of a blockage with how,
31:23
like it, it then comes onto financial incentives for
31:27
whether you, it's worth doing it for on the wide scale for
31:30
animal patients. Yeah. You know, it's all of this kind of thing. I'm not
31:34
sure, I don't know fully about, but it's that whole thing, which is generally
31:38
the general blockage of One Medicine, which is that kind of managing
31:42
to transfer it. Back to the animal and make sure the animal
31:47
gets its, gets, gets their go.
31:49
Go on, Sasha. And there's probably another layer there, isn't it? Because it's like,
31:52
if you're a human patient, you have access in the UK, at least to the
31:56
NHS, who is able to afford
32:01
the treatment, hopefully. I know not all treatments are
32:05
affordable for the NHS, but then you get,
32:08
you know, you get access to it. But because we don't have an equivalent NHS
32:13
for animals. Yeah. There's that barrier there
32:16
as well, isn't there? 'Cause vet prescriptions seem, yeah, very expensive.
32:21
Very expensive. And it's, it's a completely different, if you
32:24
look at the NHS versus how vets work,
32:28
it's a completely different setup. Completely different setup.
32:31
And that's one of the barriers is how the
32:35
research, you know, research is, for humans, it's much
32:39
better funded, fewer financial issues when it comes
32:42
to the end product. Because as you said, we are more
32:46
like, we're gonna get it funded and the NHS are gonna pay for it as
32:49
long as it's not too terrible. Yeah. Yeah.
32:52
Whereas obviously it's all privately funded for vets or insurance funded,
32:55
but then the insurance gets involved. And so there's a lot,
32:58
there's a lot of barriers. Yeah. That we're
33:02
all, kind of thinking about and looking at. Feels kind
33:06
of like, I find it maybe quite overwhelming because there is quite a few barriers.
33:09
And I think when I've been involved in the work so far, there was a
33:12
lot around the sort of regulation and licensing
33:16
stuff that I wasn't fully aware of. So you've got that on top.
33:19
I mean, maybe we can explain that for some of our listeners in a second,
33:22
but that on top of actual the affordability and the end
33:26
side of it is also a huge consideration on whether parents,
33:31
guardians will actually be willing to pay
33:34
for some of the treatments. I don't know whether that'll change over time. My feeling
33:38
is that people are seeing their pets more and more as family and
33:42
may be willing to invest, but then you've always got people who just don't have
33:45
the money and the capability to go into those sorts of high-level, you know,
33:48
those high-cost treatments. But yeah. Could you say a
33:52
little bit more about the legislation and licensing bit, like the barriers up
33:56
Is it easy to solve? Like, I find
34:00
it really difficult. It is complicated, isn't it?
34:04
That's the thing. It's a big topic. I don't know whether we could like,
34:08
like try and give people a little bit of a window into like why,
34:11
okay, we've got this medicine, it's, it's been okayed for
34:15
people. Yeah. We want it. Why can't we just get it okayed for animals?
34:19
Yeah. So this, and this is actually the focus of,
34:23
we just did a parliamentary event in April, um,
34:27
around this, saying— Perfect. We have,
34:30
say we have a treatment in humans, why is it not coming through for animals
34:34
as well? Especially if animal patients have been used as part of the development
34:39
process. So we know that it works all right in dogs. We know that it's
34:43
safe. Can we not give it a go? Yeah. So actually
34:47
we got some really, really good feedback that we're sort of formulating
34:50
at the minute to try and work out what we're gonna do next, because it
34:53
seems like we were saying, well, there's a problem here. And it seems like some
34:57
people are like, there is no problem. There is no legislation that stops you
35:00
from using this drug in a different animal.
35:04
It's, so people can do it. It's not the regulatory issues. I don't
35:08
wanna go into it too much because I'll end up saying something that is wrong.
35:11
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I'll leave it at is that basically it's not,
35:15
it's a complicated situation and we are not entirely sure where
35:19
the issue is. And what we want to do next is to go and talk
35:24
to everybody involved, basically. Listen to the regulators,
35:28
listen to the people who are on the ground and
35:31
find out where the little blockages are. Because it's not a clear blockage.
35:35
It's like, it's like something's just not going through and we're not
35:39
sure why not. Oh, well, that sounds a bit more hopeful. It is,
35:42
but it's a little bit woolly. I do apologise. Yeah, complex and— No, it's fine.
35:46
No, no, no, no, it is complex. And I wonder if there's like a,
35:49
I don't know, there's something also that you'd have to do with pet parents
35:54
and guardians themselves to have a bit more of an open mind around
35:57
this topic too, because there's probably a little bit of fear. 'Cause I know
36:01
when I had Betty's medicine and I was told it's
36:05
off licence, it's, you know, it's designed for humans, but it can be given
36:08
to dogs, you kind of think, what, can it? Is it safe?
36:12
Is it gonna be okay? And then, yeah,
36:15
there's probably something there around just sort of reassurance and changing attitudes
36:19
that actually, 'cause we're just so used to seeing very specific medicines that
36:23
we get for from the vets for our cats and dogs and then medicines that
36:26
we have as humans. And they are the same, but they do feel very
36:30
different for some reason. I don't know. So there's probably like something there
36:33
around awareness raising and changing attitudes and perceptions as well. And that's,
36:37
that's really interesting actually, because, well, that brings up 2 things
36:40
for me. One thing is the PGI thing that I know you've
36:44
been involved in, that, that is brilliant. I love, I just love this
36:48
whole thing around it because it's about helping companion
36:52
animal guardians, pet parents, pet owners get involved
36:56
in, in having a say and in how their,
37:01
the care is happening for, at the veterinary level
37:04
and specifically actually at the research level. So we want to see
37:08
more vet research happening for animal patients so that
37:12
they get access to more stuff and you end up with more drugs coming through
37:15
and you get more, you know, that pipeline is opened up a bit more.
37:19
And in human medicine, there's a really strong ethical idea
37:24
around involving patients and the public in this because the research is happening with
37:28
human patients. So human patients should be involved and have a say in
37:32
whether, how that research is designed and whether it's gonna be useful,
37:36
whether it's what they actually want. And it's not about actually dictating
37:40
what happens with research, but it's about working with the researchers. And we'd love
37:45
to see something similar on the vet side, and that's what
37:49
what we've been developing is, is an initiative around that that's kind of not modeled
37:53
on the human, but kind of very similar, that is to help,
37:56
uh, people with the companion animals have
37:59
more of a say around this and get more involved. And actually the other
38:03
thing that I was thinking about was I was just talking to my friend
38:08
before this who's a vet, and she was saying that it's really
38:11
interesting now with antimicrobial resistance.
38:16
So there's actually a big push to obviously cut down on antibiotic use.
38:20
She's really noticing how people come in much more,
38:24
much more understanding about it, much more, you know,
38:28
not expecting antibiotics. That's interesting. Because everybody knows, already done
38:32
all the research, already asked Chat about it,
38:35
ChatGPT, you know, and are just much more,
38:38
yeah, medically aware. Yeah. Than previously.
38:42
So already that opening up and that understanding is kind of coming
38:46
on a little bit. That's interesting actually, 'cause I think with the, you know,
38:49
with AI coming now to the forefront, I think
38:53
actually you probably will see maybe more pet owners and
38:57
guardians maybe upskilling themselves on a few things before going
39:00
to the vet and kind of maybe either asking for something or expecting
39:04
something, or kind of like maybe understanding the kind of conditions
39:08
a bit bit, a bit more, maybe be a bit more informed, maybe a bit
39:11
more misinformed, I'm sure. But yeah,
39:15
I wonder whether that will kind of change how people approach healthcare
39:19
for their animals a little bit more. I haven't, I haven't done it myself.
39:22
I would, I don't think I would Google, 'cause I always feel
39:26
it with myself. As soon as I start Googling a condition I've got, I'm like,
39:30
I'm almost dying. You know, I've got the worst case of everything.
39:33
I wouldn't do that with my animal because then I'd start really panicking. It's really
39:37
bad. I know. So I'd be like, off to the vet immediately. I wouldn't wanna
39:40
get, I would want, I would trust their judgement on, on that before I started
39:45
searching stuff. But I bet people probably do do a bit more of that
39:49
and it could help and could also hinder, but. There's a balance, isn't there,
39:52
to be struck, I think. 'Cause I'm sure there's plenty of people that go in
39:55
and annoy their vets, just like you go in and annoy your doctor, 'cause suddenly
39:57
you become this expert. Yeah. But at the same time, you know,
40:01
it is good to be informed and know a bit more about what you're talking
40:04
about, 'cause it can feel overwhelming otherwise. Yeah,
40:08
absolutely. Absolutely. And it's all about working
40:11
together. Exactly. Back to the point of what you talked about
40:14
right at the start of the podcast around One Medicine and bringing
40:18
the right people together.
40:28
You obviously talked at the start about like, we need to bring scientists
40:31
and vets together, human medicine, animal medicine. How, how is, how successful is that?
40:35
Kind of going at the moment? Like, who are the people that are behind the
40:39
scenes? Because I think, I know there's a network, isn't there? A growing network.
40:41
So yeah, yeah. So there's the LinkedIn— well, it's on LinkedIn now.
40:46
It was on a different platform. We've just shifted it over to get some more
40:49
people involved, and it's called the One Medicine Network. That is for professionals,
40:54
and we tend to have— so it's for anyone, anyone who's
40:58
involved in One Medicine, um, and or who's interested in
41:02
One Medicine. From a professional background. So you
41:06
can be really, it's very tenuous. It's as long as you've got any
41:10
sort of professional interest, a nurse, a student,
41:14
a physiotherapist of all different species,
41:17
you know, like anything where you are just interested in the
41:21
similarities and what you could learn from talking to people
41:25
from the opposite side, basically. And what we were just looking
41:28
at the stats when we were moving over, we were just looking at the stats
41:31
from the platform, and we thought,
41:34
'cause we tend to get quite a few, vets tend to pick it up
41:38
straight away because I think they spend, because there's a bit less literature,
41:42
a bit less research done, slightly fewer treatments, they're already
41:45
having to dip into human treatments sometimes, like you just said, Sasha,
41:48
about off-label medicines and stuff. And when you read
41:51
vet papers, they're already looking at the human literature and saying, this is
41:55
what's going on in humans. So I think they're more open to the idea
41:59
of it and probably more like, why aren't we doing this already? And we
42:03
should be doing this more in the opposite direction. So we have a
42:07
lot of vets, but interestingly, it was about half
42:10
and half, or it was about human and animal disciplines
42:14
were split about half and half. And we did have a lot of people from
42:17
the human side who were very interested, particularly GPs. A lot of people
42:20
were GPs on that network. And we've talked about this. Why is
42:24
it that GPs seem really interested? And we're wondering if it's because
42:28
they're quite holistic in the same way that vets are quite holistic.
42:31
So there's a lot of overlap in how you you're treating patients that are coming
42:34
in and you're seeing very similar things and you maybe have to think quite
42:39
dynamically. You're not very, you're not totally specialised into
42:43
it. Yeah. And, but there seems, GPs seem to be an
42:47
interested bunch. So we're wondering whether we can start going
42:51
out and talking to GPs more. Nurses are interested,
42:55
but then we do have, we have a lot of researchers, obviously in research,
42:59
when you get down to the cell level, it doesn't really matter too much whether
43:02
it's an animal cell or a human cell. Um,
43:06
so interesting, Alex, because, um, I'm just sort of reflecting on
43:10
like my journey that I had with Weaver, my cat
43:13
recently, and the specialism as a pet
43:17
owner or pet parent. Terminology keeps changing,
43:20
so I do apologise because I never know quite how or where I sit on
43:24
it. So I don't know, I, I use, try to use all of them.
43:26
Yeah, I think we all do. That's what we've been doing. We want to be
43:30
inclusive and use all sorts of terminology. I still use the word pet because
43:34
it's so natural to me and I'm old now, so. But anyway,
43:37
I do appreciate that the change of language is sometimes good. But yeah, because I
43:41
think what I really got a lot of value out of with Weaver's
43:45
very strange condition that she had at one point, and she still is being treated
43:49
for it, was actually having an expert So like going to
43:53
a heart, I can't remember what the name is,
43:56
but the heart vet that was an expert in that
44:00
area. And then having somebody who was good with musculoskeletal stuff.
44:04
And I kind of, I didn't know they existed. And then
44:08
when I got to the, I got to a sort of a dead
44:12
end and I was like, there must be more. There must be more information I
44:15
can get from somewhere, from someone who knows the condition as well. Yeah.
44:18
And I'm like, where are the specialists? No, the vets weren't really forthcoming at
44:22
the time about there being these people out there. And I had to search.
44:25
And when I found it, I was like, this is just awesome. Like, I want
44:29
this more available. The place, unfortunately for us, was, well, it wasn't,
44:33
it was, I dunno, a 45-minute drive, but taking a cat 45 minutes was very
44:37
traumatic. I was like, I wish there were more of these specialist centres
44:41
nearby. I don't know, like, yeah, how other people feel about
44:45
that, whether other pet parents, I dunno, Sasha, like you, how are you,
44:49
how do you feel about that specialism side of things from an animal's point of
44:52
view? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, I think trying to find someone who can
44:54
support Betty with her spinal compression
44:58
day to day. It's quite hard to find physios
45:02
and people that can do the laser therapy for
45:06
her and also have expertise with brachycephalic dogs.
45:09
But yeah, I, I think vets do
45:14
want to do their best, but I suppose their, their knowledge becomes
45:17
limited. But yeah, it's not easy to find, or yeah,
45:21
they just don't, I dunno if they know if they exist. I know, I think
45:25
specialisms are growing. I think, I think specialisms are growing
45:29
in the vet world. I think it's, uh, again, it's difficult
45:33
'cause once you get specialised, then you also lose speciality in other aspects.
45:37
Yeah. And it becomes too niche, can't it? Because not every pet or
45:41
dog, cat will experience those things. So. Yeah. Well, like you said,
45:45
start the specialism, like you say, you start to lose the bigger picture
45:48
and the dynamic kind of response to their condition.
45:52
It's basically about everyone, I mean, one medicine in general is about about
45:55
communication. It's just about more communication and stronger communication.
45:59
And that's what it is, isn't it? If you even, it'd be great if we
46:03
all are, have great strong specialties and then can communicate
46:08
between each other to make sure that we're not missing things and things aren't falling
46:12
through the gaps. And that reminds me of another boundary.
46:16
Another barrier for One Medicine is the different terminology between
46:19
the, between the two. Ah, different diseases
46:23
cause, called different things. Really?
46:26
Yeah. Like quite funnily, like quite,
46:29
I never really thought that this would be such
46:32
an issue, but it comes up in everything that we do. If we do an
46:35
event where we're looking at what are the problems, or if we do a symposium
46:39
where people are talking about different diseases and you've either got the human or the,
46:43
the animal side, and it's just, just different terminology just
46:46
'cause we've just grown separately and just come up with different words.
46:50
And sort of One Medicine is, is about maybe thinking,
46:54
can we simplify those words a bit more? And especially, or can we
46:57
just make them a bit more transferable between the two? And especially
47:02
around research, I think, because how we do research, can we
47:06
do it in a way, coming back to the PGIE thing, can we do it
47:09
in a way where that makes the data as good a quality as we can
47:12
get? Which then makes it easily transferable between
47:16
the 2 disciplines. So clinical trials and things like that,
47:20
trying to get them to the best standard that they can be done, that kind
47:25
of thing. Yeah. 'Cause for helping people to understand like the PGIE,
47:28
the sort of public and guardian involvement side of it, like, you know,
47:32
okay, what, what can, what can I do as a, as a general person who
47:36
just has, um, who's a pet parent? Like what value do I
47:40
have? But like you say, like designing kind of clinical trials is— All the value.
47:43
Yeah, it's got, it's gotta be, you know, it's gotta be accessible for you.
47:47
It's gotta be appropriate for you and your animal. You've gotta be able to kind
47:51
of trust the system and the setup and be able to administer the drugs or
47:54
whatever it is that's coming through. All of those systems, your voice is important,
47:58
isn't it? Yeah. That's it. Like, is it gonna, is this study
48:02
gonna work? Is this, if we're doing a study that's looking at,
48:05
that involves giving an animal 10 million tablets in the morning,
48:09
is that gonna work? Anyone.
48:13
Yeah. He's not even gonna give one some tablets. No, we can't. That's not
48:17
gonna work. Whereas sometimes if you're coming at it purely from a scientific point of
48:20
view, you're like, right, we'll do this and then we'll do this and then we'll,
48:22
you know, then we can measure that. But the people who are on the ground
48:26
doing it are the ones who can then tell you like, no. Yeah. That's interesting.
48:30
I was speaking to my mum earlier and she's got a little Chihuahua who,
48:33
yeah, will not take tablets. And we were just talking about the
48:37
different types of food that we were, she was gonna hide this tablet in.
48:41
Say that. Yeah. And like you say, Just, you've gotta give
48:45
them more than one. That's very challenging. And yeah, how are the different ways
48:49
in which you can apply that treatment to kind of suit the animal and
48:53
the human? But yeah, it's challenging. It is challenging.
48:57
And also it's challenging in a way that the animal obviously
49:01
does not have a voice. So you have to speak on behalf of the
49:05
animal and think about what's best for the animal. And maybe what's best for the
49:08
animal is not even going in that trial, like not even going in, you know?
49:11
So there's that aspect of it as well, and that's why it's so important to
49:13
have Because to have everyone involved in designing
49:17
this research, because it, you know, is it necessary to do the research?
49:21
If people are going, I just don't think it's even necessary. Yeah.
49:25
Then it's got to be ethical. It's got to be in the animal's best interests.
49:29
That's a, I think that's a really hard decision to make actually,
49:33
because yeah, like as a pet owner, like I
49:37
immediately think I'd do anything above and beyond to like make sure my animal lived.
49:41
Like if there was some kind of condition that I suddenly figured out that they
49:44
had, I'd be like, let's just do anything possible. But then actually, the rational brain
49:48
of mine would be then, well, you know, is the treatment going to actually make
49:51
their life worse? Are they actually going to come out of this as healthy as
49:54
they are at, you know, at this point? Is it going to restrict their movements
49:57
for a year? Therefore, is that actually a life the animal needs?
50:01
And, you know, trying to make that decision is really, really hard.
50:04
Yeah. Really hard. Yeah. You rely on, I think, a discussion with your
50:09
vet and like come up with those decisions together and kind of
50:12
talk through all the options. But yeah, it's tough. It's not easy.
50:16
Yeah. That was one of the things that just came up for me around,
50:20
um, recently around diabetes, because I don't know if either
50:24
of you've got experience with animals with diabetes, because I thought that diabetes
50:29
was actually quite, you know, in my head it's like, oh,
50:33
well, we've got insulin, so it's all fine. Yeah. Yeah.
50:37
I would think the same. We'll treat it. It's all fine. Yeah. And, um,
50:40
But there's many, many people who do have experience of this with
50:43
pets, but I didn't realise. It's possible for pets who have
50:47
diabetes to live long lives, but it's not as easy,
50:51
obviously, as it is with humans. Because it takes a lot of effort
50:54
and a lot of close monitoring to keep blood sugar levels
50:58
right, and to watch what you eat, as a human with diabetes, to watch what
51:02
you're eating and to do this and to do that. And you have a lot
51:05
of support from nurses and you have fancy little gadgets, you know, and you
51:09
can measure your blood and this kind of thing. Even though we've got treatments now.
51:12
For cats in particular I'm thinking of, but animals in general.
51:15
There's things like, you know, the blood monitor things on your, on your,
51:19
that you put on your pet, if you can, falls off or it doesn't stick
51:23
on very well because of the fur. The fur. Or they knock it off because
51:26
why are they gonna wanna keep that on? You know, so it's very little things
51:30
that are sort of, even though we've got the treatment there, it's actually the
51:34
measuring of the blood and it's the managing of the condition that is then
51:38
stopping That's a really good example. Progress. Yeah.
51:41
I just find that, yeah. That's a really interesting example because
51:45
yeah, I can see like owners then balancing, well, can I, can I
51:49
manage this every day of my life? Not only of the cat's life, for example.
51:53
You know? Yeah. And I was thinking like, how do you,
51:57
I don't even know. Do you, if you have a cat with diabetes, do you
52:00
have to stop them from going outside? Do they have to stay inside? Because you
52:04
have to watch what they're eating. Yeah. That kind of thing. Interesting. But yeah,
52:08
it's quite interesting. I've been, we've been reaching out, trying to get in touch with,
52:11
there's a company over in Italy who are doing, who like, they're developing blood glucose
52:15
sensors specifically for pets. And we just wanted to talk to them to see what
52:19
they were doing and how it, 'cause I think it's based on a human one,
52:23
but then they're adapting it. And I just was really interested in how are they
52:26
adapting it. Have they spoke to pet owners? Have they spoke to
52:30
pet owners? Exactly. I was gonna
52:34
say, um, but if you are a pet owner, pet parent listening to this
52:38
and you want to get involved somehow,
52:41
um, whether it's, you know, you've got views to share or your pet
52:45
isn't well and you want to explore, um, opportunities maybe for,
52:49
to be part of trials and things, how do people engage with you?
52:53
Or not you, but the charity. With the charity, well,
52:56
look us up. The Human Animal Trust, online, on LinkedIn,
53:00
on social media. Reach out to me directly. So anything,
53:04
if you've got any suggestions, any ideas, any thoughts, any stories,
53:07
we've got something on, on the website for people
53:11
with stories with companion animals to put in where their own experience
53:16
with different illnesses or what's happened or what they think would be useful,
53:20
or just experiences in general that we can take inspiration from and
53:24
can use really to help push things forward a bit more. But also it's interesting
53:28
that you mentioned clinical trials because that's one thing that is actually lacking
53:32
a little bit. In this country is that there currently isn't
53:35
a registry or any way of really being able
53:40
to know which, what clinical trials are happening in
53:44
the UK for companion animals. And they're
53:48
just currently being, there's one for humans, or there's a couple for humans.
53:51
Yeah. I've seen those. Yeah. Where you can search through and, you know,
53:55
have a look and see if there's something. But honestly, it's almost
53:58
like you set this question up for me because, are you afraid? Well, I was
54:02
just thinking if I had a pet who was poorly and I wanted to help
54:05
them. Well, so there's somebody who is setting
54:09
up, she's, she's involved in the Trust, who's setting
54:12
up the first vet clinical trial registry. Brilliant.
54:15
Okay. Which she's hoping to launch very soon. Very, very soon.
54:20
And if that goes ahead, that would be fabulous because that'll
54:24
be the first time that there will be something for
54:27
the public to search. Oh, great. So if it's say my cat's got a thyroid
54:32
problem, is there any trial going that my cat can, can get involved in,
54:36
or that we can get involved in. You can search through and find, and she's
54:39
working really, really hard to do that. And I will let you know if it
54:43
gets going or when it gets going, I should say, because it'll be really
54:46
good to tell everyone about it, basically. Yeah.
54:50
So very good. That'd be brilliant progress. Yeah. Because, you know, not every vet's
54:54
gonna know what clinical trials are happening, 'cause, you know, they're busy people,
54:58
they've got a lot to deal with and knowing that is a big thing.
55:01
Exactly. And it's also really difficult to actually know. It's just difficult.
55:05
Like there is, even the vets, uh, We had an event where even
55:09
the vets were saying, is there anywhere we can look to see where the trials
55:11
are, to see where, what is going on? There just isn't that collective
55:15
repository basically. So it's really good. I'm really pleased that that's going
55:19
ahead. Congrats. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's probably worth saying,
55:23
like when we talk about clinical trial, we're, we're, it is very different to the
55:27
term animal testing, isn't it? Yeah. I just feel like I just wanna be clear
55:30
on that because— Absolutely. It is very different. So we're not encouraging that. We're saying
55:35
that, yeah, that there are, yeah, trials that could help. A poorly petted,
55:39
poorly animal. Yeah. Poorly animal. And that is absolutely something that
55:42
we have to be really clear on as well, is that we don't advocate,
55:46
Human Animal does not advocate animal testing in any way.
55:49
And in fact, we do, one of the aims of One Medicine is to,
55:53
to reduce animal testing and eventually make it obsolete along
55:56
with, so One Medicine is kind of looking at the spontaneous,
56:01
naturally occurring diseases in animal patients, which will be clinical trials.
56:04
So using the data that's already coming out vet
56:08
clinics, out of studies with animals that are having
56:12
a look at trying new treatments and this kind of thing, to try and reduce
56:16
the amount of testing on non-patient animals, basically, on animal
56:20
models. And we don't ever fund anything that uses animal testing
56:24
and we don't advocate it at all. And that's one of the main aims of
56:27
our charity is to, is to stop animal testing happening. Yeah. Amazing.
56:31
And then also in our vision, we include these things called
56:35
non-animal methodologies. New stuff, like we said before,
56:38
AI, all this kind of thing, animal-free technologies,
56:42
which are, which are getting better and better, you know, stepping in instead
56:47
of, instead of needing animal models. And it's not quite there yet, but it's getting
56:50
there. So yeah. Yeah. We will, we will get there
56:53
one day. It'd be, that's a great ambition, isn't it, for the future?
56:56
Definitely. That's been so interesting. Thank you
57:00
for coming on, Alex, and explaining that to us and having a bit of a
57:04
discussion about it. It's hopefully we've kind of been able to put that across for
57:08
people to understand. Yeah, I think so. Like,
57:12
if people have got any questions, send them in, give us a shout.
57:15
Or if they're like, you know what, I've been listening and what you're saying is
57:18
not true, again,
57:22
we're about challenge and we're about discussion. Like,
57:25
we're about, you know, we're about trying to bring different people together
57:29
who don't normally talk. So we're open to people saying, I don't agree.
57:33
And, you know, know, go for it. Yeah, well, hopefully this podcast
57:37
will go some small way to raising a bit more awareness and understanding of
57:41
the charity and what you're, you're doing, because it is, it's amazing,
57:45
and a lot of it seems to happen behind the scenes, so it's great to
57:48
put a bit of a spotlight on that. Oh, well, thank you. Thanks very much
57:51
for giving us the space. Yeah, thank you for everything that you do.
57:53
And, um, yeah, one very final question. Do you get to
57:57
work with Noel? I see him on the TV with Super Vet. Is he,
58:01
is he quite active? Are you friends with him? He's far too busy.
58:06
Super, super busy. He's super busy. He's in high demand,
58:10
I'm sure. Super busy vet. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, he's amazing
58:14
for pushing this forward. And I, you know, on the website, I watched some of
58:18
his, the interviews he's had with patients, uh, you know, pet parents, and he
58:22
puts it across in a really accessible way. So if people wanna learn a bit
58:25
more about what the whole ethos and drive behind it is, it's quite good
58:30
to go and watch some of those actually. That's really true actually. Yeah. Yeah.
58:33
That's how I first heard about all this is through one of his books,
58:36
I think so. And then I mentioned it to you. Mention it to Nat.
58:38
So yeah, really great work, and thank you so, so much for the
58:41
time today. Really appreciate it. No worries. No worries. Good luck on your mission.
58:45
Yeah, we'll see you soon. Okay, thank you. Take care.