Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / Kathleen Marshall - The Cat Queen Murder

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Kathleen Marshall - The Cat Queen Murder · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: In early nineteen ninety eight, a respected veterinarian vanished from
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: her daily routine without warning. Then days later, friends arrived
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: at her home to check in on her, but instead
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: they discovered a horrifying scene that would pull investigators into
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a world of bitter rivalries, strange coincidences, missing animals, and
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: a mystery that seemed to grow more complicated with every
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: answer that they uncovered. What followed was one of Australian's
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: most unusual murder investigations, one that would ultimately raise both
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: answers and questions that are still being debated decades later.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: This is the story of Kathleen Marshall.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Following content material more audience listener discretion. So as a husband,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I can confidently say one of the best things ever
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in my life happened the other day. You made me
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: banana bread, or made us banana bread. But oh, okay,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: when a wife makes a husband banana bread, oh my god,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: what is this going to be? You're working on a
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: banana bread recipe. It was delicious and I appreciated it,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: and it was euphoric.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am recipe testing to get the perfect banana bread, which.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Is going to eventually go on our cookbook that will
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: eventually come out with We are still working on that.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: By the way, I have talked about it before.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I'm damn close to I think I just have two tiny.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Tweaks, tiny tweaks.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: The next time I make banana bread, I think it's
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: gonna be damn perfect.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I thought this one was damn perfect.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: You gave it a pretty good rating. It's kind of funny.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I had like a rating scale for bin I got.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: It was like moisture, I can't remember what. There was
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: like four things on there and you had to rate
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: them out of ten.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like there was appearance, there was moisture,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: there was texture, there was something else I can't remember,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it was. It was very high rated across.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: The board, and you even the next day changed your
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: rating to be I did rier because you were anticipating
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: this banana bread to dry out and not be quite
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: as good later. But it didn't, and it was fantastic.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Not to knock your banana bread. But like you know,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: when you have something fresh out of the oven and
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: it's like ooh nice and like soft. When it cools down,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: it dries out a bit. That heat evaporates with moisture
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: that he goes away with moisture and stuff. So yeah,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I was anticipating it might dry out slightly and it didn't.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: It was beautiful, I.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Know, and it looked it like, looked really good too.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Going to put a picture in Patreon for our Friday photo.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: There we go, There we go.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: But I feel like we might have hyped it up
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: too much and people be.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Like, oh, that looks like shit, it just looks like
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: banana bread. But it was. It was really good, really
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: good like texture, consistency, deliciousness. It was also amazing. Even
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: had chocolate in it, and it was a good amount
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: of chocolate.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: The one thing I was just going to bring up
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: this chocolate is I didn't use chocolate chips because chocolate
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: chips they just kind of stay in the form of
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: chocolate chips, right, Yes, So I actually just got like
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: a pretty high end chocolate.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Bar and I like like a Lindoors.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just chopped it and I had like finer and
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: larger pieces like chalks and stuff, and I think that
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: was awesome.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: It was amazing. You need to make it again today specifically.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I was kind of hoping to have a piece
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: yesterday and then it was just gone.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I finished it off.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but we don't have any more chocolate.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: So we can go get some. But you need to
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: perfect that recipe. So you gotta be making it like
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: every day, you said, right, So here we.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Go every day. We're going to start looking like a
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: loaf of bread.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the Nana bread aside, it was delicious. But
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I think we have a murder case. We got to
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: get to here.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: We do. I think that's why we're here.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: This is a bit of a I don't know how
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: to really describe this without giving I'm not going to
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: give much away actually now I think of it. It's
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: just it's a rat race of information. There's dead ends,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: there's open ended questions and answers that don't quite seem
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: to fit together. So what is an interesting tale when
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: it comes to making sense? Because it honestly doesn't.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Well, and this is the case that patrons voted on.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: It is. So we had We've got a little chat
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: with like recommended cases and stuff in Patreon, and I
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: took some three cases that kind of caught my attention,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: put a little pole up, and this is the one
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: that was the most voted on. So I went down
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: the rabbit hole and like I said, there's not a
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: whole lot of answers in this story. I mean there is,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: but they're debatable.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, interesting, Yeah.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: So you better put your thinking cap on for this one,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: is what I'm saying.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Huh, okay, and form our own opinions exactly so whenever
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: you're ready, I'm ready.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's do this. On the afternoon of Sunday,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: March first, nineteen ninety eight, several members of the Cat
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Protection Society of Queensland, Australia drove towards a quiet home
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: in the Brisbane suburb of Wilston Now. The property sat
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: along Main Avenue, tucked into a sloping hillside overlooking the city.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Even though downtown Brisbane was only a few kilometers away,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: the place felt strangely isolated. There were dense trees and
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: tangled vegetation surrounding the home so heavily that parts of
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: the house were almost hidden from the street entirely. The
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: property here belonged to a fifty two year old veterinarian
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: doctor Kathleen Marshall. To the people who knew were Kathleen
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: was intelligent, outspoken, and very passionate. She was a very
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: deeply devoted person when it came to animals. To others,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: she was difficult, intense, and impossible to argue with. But
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: whether people loved her or hated her, one thing was undeniable.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Kathleen was unforgettable, and her home, while it reflected that personality,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: A narrow path twisted through the overgrown front yard towards
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: a staircase leading up to the front door. Upstairs was
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Kathleen's living space. Downstairs. Built beneath the home between two garages,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: was a small veterinarian clinic she operated privately. Now, the
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: clinic was mostly used to care for her own animals
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: and for occasional appointments with friends and acquaintances. Kathleen lived
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: there surrounded by rescue cats and dogs, many of which
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: were sick, abandoned, or elderly. Inside the upstairs residence there
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: was old newspaper, paperwork, boxes, and scattered furniture and animal
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: cages that cluttered the floor, but Kathleen didn't seem to care.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: She was far more concerned about the animals she cared
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: for than the appearance of her living space. An antique
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: k Stein piano sat prominently in the lounge room, surrounded
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: by the controlled disorder of her life. Now that Sunday afternoon,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: the members of the Cat Protection Society weren't arriving for
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: a social visit with Kathleen see. Earlier that day, she
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: had failed to appear to an important society meeting, which
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: was unusual for her. Despite the growing tension and discourse
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: within the organization, Kathleen was known for being heavily involved
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: in its operations, and after she failed to arrive, several
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: directors planned to meet her at her house. As they
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: pulled up the driveway just after three pm, something immediately
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: felt wrong and a foul odor lingered in the air.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: At first, they assumed it was coming from some overflowing
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: garbage bins outside the house, but as they walked further
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: up the property, the smell became stronger. Several deliveries had
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: even been made to the home, and they were left
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: untouched near the front entrance of the home, including newspapers
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: and cartons of milk that had been sitting out there
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: for what it seemed to be day. The group knocked
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: on the door and called out Kathleen's name, but there
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: was no answer. They knew Kathleen suffered from something called
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Cushing's disease, which is caused by a benign pituitary tumor.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: It's a medical condition that often left her exhausted or
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: even unwell, so concerned that she may have collapsed or
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: become seriously ill, one of the women walked around to
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: the back of the house towards an area where she
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: knew Kathleen had kept a spare key. As she approached
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: towards the downstairs clinic, flies were buzzing heavily around, and
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: then she stopped abruptly in her tracks. There in front
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: of her, she saw blood that was smeared across the
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: frosted glass door in front of her. She called out
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: to the others immediately, and as they peered through that glass,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: at first nobody could understand what they were looking at,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: but then they noticed what appeared to be a human
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: arm jetting out, laying motionless. Police were contacted immediately, and
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: when officers arrived, they knew something violent had happened right away,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: as far as the appearance in the outside showed. There
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: were blood stains near foliage. There was a rubber door
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: mat near the door that it was covered in blood,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: but strangely, there was no obvious bloody footprints leading away
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: from the scene. And then, in a frustrating twist of events,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: something happened. Automatic sprinkler systems. Yeah, it suddenly activated on
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: the property and the water began spraying across parts of
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the driveway and surrounding area, washing away any potential evidence
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: before the crime scene could even be fully contained and secured.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I would never have thought of something like
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: that happening.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: But yeah. Now, the downstairs clinic had two entrances, the
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: frosted glass front door and a sliding glass door at
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the rear. There was no internal access from upstairs to downstairs.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: This was the only way to get into the area,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: and the front door appeared to be jammed shut from
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the inn side side. As officers circled the property, they
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: noticed a small garage window where several of the covering
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: slats had been snapped apart, with the glass broken out. Now,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: at first glance, it looked like someone could have broken
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: into the clinic through this spot. However, the shattered pieces
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: of glass were laying outside beneath the window, so it
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: looked like whoever damaged it had likely broken out. Not
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: in peering through that opening, officers then saw Kathleen. She
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: was laying face down in a massive pool of blood,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: right on the floor beside the clinic's exam table. Now
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: long before this, Kathleen was known throughout Brisbane as a
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: fiercely intelligent veterinarian who dedicated nearly every part of her
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: life to animals. She had been born Kathleen Lamberne in
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Brisbane in nineteen forty six and grew up academically gifted.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty eight, she graduated from the University of
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Queensland with a Bachelor of Veterinary Science with honors, entering
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: a profession that was still heavily male dominated at the time.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Friends and colleagues described her as exceptionally capable and highly
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: driven too. She was the kind of person who threw
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: herself completely into the things that she cared about, and
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: over the years that list of things she cared about
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: it grew long, but animal welfare certainly became the defining
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: focus of her life. She was heavily involved in numerous
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: charities and advocacy groups, focusing on preventing cruelty to animals
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: and improving welfare standards. By the late nineteen nineties, she
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: had become president of the Cat Protection Society of Queensland,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: which was one of the most prominent feline welfare organizations
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: in the state. She also founded Friends of the Vet
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: School at the University of Queensland and regularly participated in
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: fundraising events and environmental campaigns. However, Kathleen's passion often came
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: with intensity. People who admired her described her as fearless, generous,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: brilliant and completely committed to causes that she believed in.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: But people who disliked her, well, they used very different words,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: words like abrupt, controlling, demanding and difficult. The truth, honestly
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: was probably somewhere in the middle, but I certainly don't
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: mean that in a bad way by any means. Now,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Kathleen had extremely high standards and she wasn't afraid to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: say exactly what she thought. She could be blunt to
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the point of offending people, especially in meetings or disputes.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Some friends believe she struggled socially because she often approached
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: relationships with the same sort of approach problems that she
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: had you know, with veterinary medicine, there's got to be
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: a direct, analytical way and without much patience for emotion.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Is how she kind of went about things, trying to
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: find a solution, not understanding, tiptoeing emotions in between. Her
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: home life reflected that same single minded focus. By nineteen
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: ninety eight, Kaen was living alone in a large weatherboard
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: house on Main Avenue in Wilston. Her marriage had ended
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: in divorce years earlier, and she had become a strange
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: from much of her family following disputes after her father's
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: death decades ago. According to relatives, reconciliation attempts had been made,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: but they failed, largely because Kathleen was keeping her distance. Instead,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: her life revolved around her work, her causes, and of course,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: her animals. Now at any given time, her home contained
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: large numbers of cats and dogs, many rescued or requiring
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: medical care. She reportedly owned at least sixteen cats and
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: three dogs at the time of her death. Some animals
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: were kept upstairs in the living area, while others were
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: housed downstairs in the clinic. The property itself had slowly
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: transformed into something resembling a hidden sanctuary, with thick vegetation
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: and overgrown trees surrounding the home so densely that neighbors
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: actually sometimes came plane the foliage block pathways and roads,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: but Kathleen didn't care. She was deeply passionate about environmental
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: preservation and fiercely protective of the natural shrubland surrounding her property. Now,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: despite living in near constant clutter and isolation, Kathleen was
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: not antisocial. In fact, she actively tried to build social
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: circles around herself. One of her projects was a professional
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: singles dining group called Lepeicure, which organized upscale dinners around
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Brisbane for adults over thirty five. Kathleen carefully managed every
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: detail of those events, from reservations to membership requirements, and
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: being selective about who was allowed to join into the group.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: To some this came across as elitist, but to others
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: it was simply Kathleen being Kathleen. Now by early nineteen
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: ninety eight, she had built a life completely on her
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: own terms. She was respected in veterinary circles, influential in
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: animal welfare organization, financially stable, and deeply involved in causes
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: throughout Brisbane. But over the previous year, Kathleen had become
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: entangled in increasingly bitter internal disputes within the Cat Protection
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Society of Queensland. You see, behind the public image of
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: rescue work and feline advocacy was an increasingly toxic internal war,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: fueled by accusations and personal grudges. With power struggles in
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: disputes over money, members took sides, friendships collapsed, meetings turned hostile,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: and some people inside the organization would later describe the
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: atmosphere as paranoid and poisonous. At the center of it
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: all were two women who had once been allies, Kathleen
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Marshall and Virginia Houston. They first crossed paths around late
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, and they seemed very similar. Both were intelligent,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: outspoken women who cared deeply about animal welfare and environment
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: mental causes too. Both lived near the Ithaca Creek bushland
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: area surrounding the Ignaugura Reservoir. Both were heavily involved in
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: activism and community causes, and both had very strong personalities
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: that naturally pulled attention towards them. At the time, Virginia
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Houston was already deeply embedded within the Cat Protection Society.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: She served both as a director and the society's treasurer,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: but the organization itself had been slowly fracturing for years
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: amid allegations of internal corruption, missing money, and bitter personal rivalries,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and Virginia began believing that Kathleen could actually help stabilize things,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: so she encouraged Kathleen to join the organization, hoping her
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: intelligence and professional reputation would help restore order to the
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: increasingly chaotic society. At first, that relationship between the two
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: women in the organization was positive, but that didn't last long.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Virginia reportedly wanted Kathleen to focus on investigating the society's
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: financial problems and helping mediate the growing fighting between members,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: but instead, Kathleen became far more interested in reforming the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: organization as a whole itself. She pushed for stronger animal advocacy,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: expanded rescue efforts, and structured changes within the society, and
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: very quickly the organization split into factions. Some members rallied
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: behind Kathleen, believing she was dragging the society back towards
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: its original purpose, which was helping animals, but others viewed
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: her as arrogant, controlling, and openly insulting towards people who
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: disagreed with her.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: See I'm sitting here just loving Kathleen.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Oh so am I Like she seems.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Frick and wonderful. But I can also kind of understand
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: why she rubs people the wrong way. I suppose.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean when you're fighting against people being assholes
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: to animals. Well, yeah, like, if you're speaking out against
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: abuse and all this sort of stuff, you can come
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: across as a bitch. I can get it.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Uh huh.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: But I totally support her. She's right, you know, trying
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: to push for advocacy for animals and how they are
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: cared for.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: That's a good thing, and it's kind of sad that
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: they have the society that has these kind of issues
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: in there. So she's like, no, like, let's get back
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: to the root of why.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: We started this exactly. So she in every every ounce
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: of the word, she is a gem. You may not
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: like it, but she is.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Anyone that is that fierce for protecting animals I think
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: is a gem.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I agree, But to be fair, I will say it
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: goes beyond just the protection of animals with her, like
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: even like, hey, can you trim some hedges because it's
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: like encroaching my property. Fuck off. I can see that
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: being a bit of a conversation, you know what I mean.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I guess I think she's someone who doesn't take anyone's bullshit,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and she will openly say what she thinks.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: She lives the way she wants to live, and that's that.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Which I appreciate wholeheartedly. By mid nineteen ninety seven, meetings
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: had become deeply hostile within the Cap Protection Society. Arguments
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: broke out regularly, members accused one another of misconduct, vote manipulation,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: and financial wrongdoing. At one particular important vote in August
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety seven, Virginia was actually removed from her
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: positions as director and Treasurer by a crushing margin.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Who she would not have been happy about that.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she was devastated, to say the least. Virginia actually
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: responded by filing complaints with the Australian Securities and Investments Commissions,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: alleging many irregularities and vote rigging within the society. From there,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: people inside the organization took sides even more heavily, and
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the fighting increased to spilling beyond just meetings. Weeks before
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Kathleen's death, even Virginia arrived unexpectedly at Kathleen's home carrying
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: paperwork related to societal matters. Kathleen reportedly refused to let
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: her inside, and the confrontation escalated physically. According to reports,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: the two women shoved each other, grabbed at one another's hair,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: and argued loudly enough that Kathleen eventually had to call police. Now.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: During the triple O call, which is Australian's equivalent of
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: nine to one one, Kathleen allegedly told operators quote, there's
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: a mad woman in my house end quote, And despite
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: claiming she injured her hand during the altercation, Kathleen ultimately
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: decided she was not going to press charges against Virginia,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: But afterwards friends noticed a change in her behavior. Kathleen
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: began telling people she felt uneasy. She reportedly believed someone
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: was watching her property. On one occasion, even while standing
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: on the back veranda of her home, she claimed she
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: smelled cigarette smoke and became convinced someone was trespassing behind
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the house near the bushland, and she specifically mentioned Virginia
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Houston several times now. According to multiple people who later
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: spoke to investigators, Kathleen openly said that she believed Virginia
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: was capable of harming her. At one point, she even
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: told another society member that Virginia capable of quote taking
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: a knife to her whoa. The hostility between the two
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: women became an open secret inside the cap Protection Society,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a secret within the society, but everyone within knew. And
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: it wasn't even the only dark cloud hanging over the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: organization either, you say. Sixteen years earlier, in October of
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, another member of the society named Frank
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Castanola was murdered. Frank had recently changed his will to
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: leave behind his estate worth more than two hundred thousand
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: dollars to the organization before he was shot dead while
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: sitting on his porch.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Are you serious? What the hell is this organization?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And that murder was never solved?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Oh my, okay, that's really messed up. Shit.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Over time, rumors and suspicions surrounding the money inside the
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: society grew and grew and just continued to get worse,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: and by early nineteen ninety eight, some members believed funds
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: were disappearing. Others accused people within the organization of trying
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: to turn the society into a business rather than a charity.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Old grudges mixed with financial disputes and personality clashes. It
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: all had a constant cloud hanging over it. Almost everyone
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: had a reason to hate someone there, and many of
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: them hated Kathleen.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Oh this is almost pissing me off here, because what
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the hell is this? This is literally just supposed to
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: be an organization that helps animals, and what the hell
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: is happening?
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but unfortunately things get political, and things get business like,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and money gets in the mix, and then it gets
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: to people's heads and things just grow and greed. That's
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: what I hate about our world, is the sense of
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: everything that's happening here.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, humans, they have some issues, that's for sure. Some humans,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I should say, Yeah, not.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: All mom, But there's a lot of humans out there
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: who suck. Let's put it that out now. All this
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: brings us to Friday, February twenty seventh, nineteen ninety eight.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It appeared to begin like any other ordinary day in
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the life of Kathleen Marshall. Most of the people who
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: encountered her that day later told investigators she seemed completely
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: normal as she moved through her usual routines around Brisbane
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: that morning, at around ten fifteen am, Kathleen was seen
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: in the Wilston shopping area by a woman named Katherine Stevenson,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: and she was an old acquaintance. She had known her
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: since they were kids in school, so she recognized her immediately.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: While inside the shopping area, Kathleen stopped to place a
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: poster in a window advertising a missing pregnant cat. Throughout
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the day, witnesses would later report seeing Kathleen moving normally
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: around the suburb, you know, handling errands and continuing with appointments,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: all that sort of regular stuff she was always doing.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, however, investigators would eventually become deeply
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: interested in one particular entry that was written inside Kathleen's
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: appointment book. A final completed page was dated Thursday, February
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: twenty sixth, and among the scheduled appointments was at one
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: o'clock one pm, a consultation for a man identified as
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: John Wilson and his cat. Now, veterinarians regularly deal with
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: unfamiliar clients, and there was no reason for police to
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: initially view this name as suspicious or anything, but after
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: she died, detectives quickly discovered they could not locate any
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: legitimate client connected to that appointment. No known John Wilson
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: ever came forward, and no records clearly identified him, and
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: nobody in kathleen circle appeared to recognize that name either,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: and so investigators began considering the possibility that appointment itself
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: may have been false. Now that theory gained more attention
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: after police interviewed Victor and Pauline Lachardi, a married couple
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: connected to the Cat Protection Society. The pair told investigators
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: they had briefly visited Kathleen's Main Avenue property shortly before
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: one pm on Thursday afternoon. While speaking with Kathleen outside
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: the house, they noticed a man approaching the property. He
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: was carrying a seal point Siamese cat in his arms.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Both later remembered the animal verily, very clearly, because it
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: was unusual to see someone carrying an unrestrained cat that
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: distance by foot. Usually you have it in a carrier
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: or a kennel or something yea. Now, the man himself
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: did not stand out to them otherwise, but the image
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: of that Siamese cat remained fixed in their memory long
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: after Kathleen had died. At the time, though the sighting
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: meant very little As Friday afternoon approached, Kathleen still appeared
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: to be continuing through her normal day, and she reportedly
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: was seen driving through the area during the after noon
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: with an unidentified man sitting in her passenger seat of
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: her vehicle. Her dogs were also reportedly inside the car.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Some friends later claimed Kathleen's dogs were highly protective and
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: selective around unfamiliar men, specifically. One of the most important
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: witness accounts from that evening came from Kathleen's longtime neighbor,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Warren Smith, who had lived across from her for nearly
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: two decades. At around four forty five pm, Warren was
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: outside collecting his bins and mail when he heard the
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: familiar sound of Kathleen's Toyota station wagon approaching the property.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: He later explained that he knew the sound of her
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: vehicle so well after twenty years that he recognized it
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: immediately before he even looked up and saw Kathleen return home.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: As the evening then settled over Main Avenue, the neighborhood
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: remained quiet. Kathleen was expected to attend that lepicure dinner
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: that she had booked for later that night, one of
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: the social dining events she personally organized. Then, sometime around
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: six pm, several neighbors reportedly heard screams coming from the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: direction of Kathleen's property. Now, the exact details varied slightly
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: depending on the witness spoke to, but some remembered hearing
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: screams of a single person, while others believed there were two.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: But the witnesses generally agreed on one thing. The sound
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: appeared to come from Kathleen's house. At least three people
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: later reported hearing the disturbance while standing outside nearby, but
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: not one of them called police. Later that evening, Warren
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Smith would also reportedly hear Kathleen's front door shut around
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: eight pm. By then, however, Kathleen had already failed to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: arrive at her dinner. Management members of the Lepeicure group
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: attempted to contact her repeatedly throughout the evening, but every
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: call went unanswered and rolled directly into her answering machine. Now,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: at first, nobody believed anything terrible had happened. Friends simply
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: assumed Kathleen had become busy, forgotten about the event, or
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: changed plans unexpectedly. But as Friday night slowly turned into
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Saturday morning and nobody heard anything from her, Concern gradually
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: began to build among people who knew her. Calls to
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: her home continued going unanswered, but that alone was not
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: enough to spark panic. See Kathleen was known for becoming
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: consumed by her work, ignoring messages, and disappearing into her
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: own routines for some stretches of time. Friends and colleagues
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: may have found it unusual that she missed the Lepecure
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: dinner the night before, but nobody imagined the explanation could
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: be violent. By Sunday afternoon, however, concern had started to deepen.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Members of the Cat Protection Society of Queensland were scheduled
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: to attend a director's meeting, and after Kathleen once again
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: failed to appear to respond to calls, several society members
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: decided to go directly to her Main Avenue property at Wilston.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: The group arrived some time after three pm, and almost
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: immediately after arriving, they sensed something was wrong and that's
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: when they found the scene and police were called. When
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: officers from the Queensland Police Service arrived at six six
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Main Avenue, they quickly realized they were dealing with an
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: exceptionally violent scene. They found the blood outside the clinic entrance,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the automatic sprinkler systems washed away sections of the potential
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: crime scene, and then peering through that broken window, that's
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: when police finally saw the full horror waiting inside. Kathleen
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Marshall was lying face down beside the examination table in
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: an enormous pool of her own blood. Her blue and
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: white striped sun dress, one that she was already reported
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: to be wearing by witnesses on Friday, had been pulled
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: upwards during a violent attack, and one of her hands
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: remained tightly tangled in her own hair. Blood covered the
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: clinic floor so heavily that investigators later had to place
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: boards down to avoid contaminating the scene while moving through
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the room. Furniture inside the clinic had been overturned during
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: what appeared to be a fierce struggle to a cat
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: cage had been shoved up against the door from inside,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: partially blocking it, which explained why the door wouldn't open. Then,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: near a sink, investigators discovered a diluted blood stain. There
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: was a bucket in fact, containing bloody water, a cloth,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Kathleen's glasses, and a single running shoe. Now that matching
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: shoe sat nearby on the floor beside a plastic bag,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: which was also stained with blood. Two investigators it appeared
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: that somebody had attempted to clean themselves up after the attack,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: washing away potential evidence. But blood was also found on
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: a cardboard box positioned near that broken window, further strengthening
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: police's suspicion that the killer may have escaped through the
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: window after becoming trapped inside the clinic, because remember that
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: cage had jammed up against the door. Now, as detectives
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: slowly worked through the downstairs, other officers began searching the
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: upset stairs of the residence. What they found there painted
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: a very vivid picture of Kathleen's isolated life. Animals wandered
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: through cluttered rooms and packed boxes with paper and cages
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: and furniture everywhere. Many of the cats and dogs had
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: clearly gone unfed since Friday evening when the attack occurred,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: and some were distressed and dehydrated, but other than that
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: they were very well cared for. But then investigators noticed
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: something upstairs that made them stop in their tracks, and
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: many of them would never forget. Sitting on Kathleen's antique
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Bechstein piano was an open music score. There was a
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: book that she bought, brought back from London years earlier,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and there it sat open and on the page it
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: was left was on Choplin's funeral March.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Oh, man, this whole scene is just eerieus shit.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Eh, yeah, Now, this whole situation, it became clearly obvious
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: they were dealing with an unusually violent and care chaotic homicide.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: But that detail was ominous on top of everything.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: So it was just sitting on the piano bench.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: No, I believe it was sitting on the piano like
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: as if it were to be played. You know how
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: there's a little like shelf, many shelf for the sheets.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Now, during the post mortem examination of Kathleen's remains, pathologists
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: determined that she had suffered approximately fifty two stab wounds,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: concentrated mainly around the upper part of her body. The
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: injuries covered her chest, face, neck, abdomen, arms, and head. Now,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: many of the wounds were relatively shallow, measuring roughly two
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: to four centimeters deep, but the sheer number of them
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: painted a picture of a frenzied and deeply personal assault.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Fifty two that's a lot.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: That is a lot. Now, several wounds on Kathleen's arms
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: and hands were identified as defensive injuries, which strongly suggested
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: that she fought desperately against her attacker before she come
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: to her wounds, but ultimately, one of those wounds severed
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: her cardioid artery, causing catastrophic blood loss. Investigators immediately noticed
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: signs that the violence had spread across nearly the entire clinic.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Blood stains appeared on walls, furniture, doors, and equipment throughout
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the room. Some stains suggested movement during the attack, while
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: others indicated Kathleen had remained alive and bleeding for a
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: part of the struggle as she moved around the clinic
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: attempting to defend herself. Near the clinic entrance, police found
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: smear patterns across the frosted glass door and surrounding surfaces
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: on the walls. Initially, detectives struggled to understand how the
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: killer could have moved through the scene without leaving a
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: more obvious trail of bloody shoe prints leading away from
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the property. Now the details surrounding that smashed nearby window,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: police believed the killer may have become trapped after the
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: struggle and smashed it to escape. In fact, blood was
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: discovered near the window and appeared to support that possibility,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and investigators while they considered the possibility that the killer
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: may have actually cut themselves climbing through that broken glass,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: and that theory soon became critically important because mixed among
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: the extensive blood evidence inside the clinic was something investigators
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: had not expected to find, blood belonging to an unknown
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: male now. At first, police collected blood swabs from throughout
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: the room, simply attempting to separate which blood belonged to
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Kathleen and which did not. The sheer volume of blood
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: made the process extremely complicated, and in total, investigators eventually
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: cataloged more than two dozen separate blood samples from different
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: parts of the clinic, and most were assumed belonged to Kathleen,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: but several small drops recovered from key locations inside appeared different.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: One sample sat near the broken window area, others were
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: found near the sink and clean up materials. Some appeared
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: mixed with Kathleen's blood, and this discovery immediately changed the
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: direction of the investigation, because detectives now believed the killer
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: had likely injured themselves during the attack, and if the
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: killer had bled inside the room, investigators believed there was
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: a chance they could eventually identify them through DNA. Now.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety eight, however, forensic DNA testing was still
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: relatively new territory in Australia, especially in homicide investigations. Modern
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: rapid DNA analysis did not exist yet, and testing was slower,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: more labor intensive, and far more controversial than they are now,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: But detectives still recognized its potential and the blood quickly
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: became one of the most important pieces of evidence in
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: the entire case. Meanwhile, pathologists and forensic specialists worked to
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: determine exactly when Kathleen had died, but that proved surprisingly difficult.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: By the time her body was discovered on Sunday afternoon,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: decomposition had already begun. Insects and maggots were present on
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: the body, prompting police to bring in a forensic entomologist
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: named Russell Luke to estimate the probable time of death
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: based on insect activity and development stages. After examining the scene,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: he estimated Kathleen had most likely died sometime between approximately
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: nine pm Thursday night and three am Friday morning. However,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: not everyone agreed with that timeline.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Well, of course, not everyone agreed with that, because unless
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: I'm mistaken, wasn't she seen Friday morning?
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Correct?
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Doing errands and stuff right?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Correct? Okay, Okay, But the entomologist said it was between
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: nine pm Thursday and three am Friday. So there's a
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: discrepancy in what witnesses say and what the entomologists says.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: No kidding, I told you there'd be a lot of
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: questions and you got to put your thinking cap on.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, because here is did you get that wrong? No?
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: I did not get that wrong. That is the two
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: conflicting timelines, Like several witness placed Kathleen alive and active
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: all through Friday. There were sightings during the morning, afternoon,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: and even into the early evening. So if you remember,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: there was the one neighbor, Warren Smith, who insisted he
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: saw Kathleen return home around four fIF sorry, four forty
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: five pm because he remembered even the sound of her
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: car even before he looked up. Multiple other people also
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: reported hearing screams near the property around six pm that
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Friday evening. So those conflicting accounts, they create a very
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: big problem that investigators would well basically wrestle with for years.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: No kidding, because that's a big range of time.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: It is because if those witnesses are correct, Kathleen could
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: not have died Thursday night like the anomologist seems to think.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: And if Kathleen had actually been a live Friday evening,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: it potentially changed the entire timeline of the whole murder. Now,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: as news of Kathleen's murder spread across Brisbane, investigators quickly
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: realized they were stepping into far more than just a
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: straightforward homicide investigation. Within days, detectives began uncovering the tangled
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: web of personal grudges, internal rivalries, accusations and long running
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: feuds connected to that Cat Protection Society of Queensland, and
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: the media immediately seized on the bizarre nature of the story.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: You have a prominent veterinarian, a hidden clinic beneath an
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: overgrown hillside, more than fifty stab wounds in the victim,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: a charity organization consumed by feuds and rumors of missing money.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Even experienced detectives admitted the case felt like a theatrical
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: performance compared to typical homicides. Now, very early on in
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: the investigation, police's attention focused heavily on Virginia Houston The
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: hostility between Virginia and Kathleen was already very well known
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: throughout the organization, and detectives quickly learned about the feud
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: between the two of them, and the most concerning incident
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: for investigators was that physical confrontation that occurred at Kathleen's
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: house only weeks before the murder. To detectives looking at
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: the case in those first days, Virginia was immediately on
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: their radar. She had motive, she had history, and so
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: investigators moved in fast. Virginia's home and vehicle were searched.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Police examined drains, reservoirs, and surrounding Bushlin, looking for any
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: sort of possible murder weapon or anything. Luminol testing was
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: conducted on areas connected to her property and her vehicle.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Detectives interviewed numerous members of the Cat Protection Society, attempting
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: to map out any sort of alliances or rivalries within
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: the organization, and what they discovered was absolute chaos. Nearly
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: everyone seemed to suspect someone else. Some members accused Virginia
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: of orchestrating a campaign against Kathleen. Others insisted Kathleen herself
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: had bullied or alienated people inside the organization, but investigators
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: also learned about another disturbing piece of organization's history, the
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two unsolved murder of Frank Castanola. Although detectives
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: found no direct evidence linking the two killings, the revelation
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: added another unsettling layer to the atmosphere surrounding the whole
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: situation and the Cat's society alike. And at this point
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: it seemed like no matter the lead the investigators followed
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: or the information they tried to uncover, it just led
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: them down a dead end. And by the spring of
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, they had no clear suspect. They had
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: no murder weapon, or eyewitnesses for the attack itself, nothing
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: just some unknown male's blood. Essentially, now, most of the
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: blood clearly belonged to Kathleen, the sheer amount of it
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: made that unavoidable, but scattered amongst those larger stains were
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: several tiny drops investigators believed had come from somebody else.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Forensic scientists at the John Tongs Center began working in
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: isolating the unknown blood profile. At the time, DNA testing
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: was still relatively new in Australia's homicide investigation, particularly in
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: cases where prosecutors hoped to build an entire murder case
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: around biological evidence alone, and as testing progressed, detectives launched
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: a large scale elimination process men connected to Kathleen, the
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Cat Protection Society, and the veterinarian Clinic everything surrounding investigation.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: They were gradually asked to provide blood samples for comparison testing.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: In some cases, police approached people voluntarily. In others, tensions
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: rose quickly once individuals realized they were effectively being treated
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: as a potential suspect in a high profile murder investigation. Eventually,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: around forty men were tested, and one by one, the
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: samples were eliminated. As detectives continued reviewing Kathleen's appointment diary
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and the witness statements collected after the murder, that named
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: John Wilson, that was written in that book, that appointment,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: It hung in the air. They didn't know what to
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: make of it. At first, investigators had very little to
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: work with. Investigators could only provide a limited description of
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: a man carrying a Siamese cat up to the house
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: around the appointment time that this John Wilson was scheduled for.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: But that Siamese cat stood out clearly in their memories.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Detectives soon learned that a woman connected to both the
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Cat Protection Society and local spiritualist circles named Ruth Bennett
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: owned a pregnant Siamese cat that had recently gone missing.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Around the same time, Kathleen had been putting up missing
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: cat posters around Wilston. Remember her old school friends saw
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: her putting up this poster.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, so they're thinking maybe the person that was walking
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the driveway with the cat was the missing holding the
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: missing cat.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Correct, Okay, could be a link, yes, So investigators looked
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: further into this Ruth Bennett and the connections surrounding Ruth,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: and they discovered she was associated with people involved in
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: spiritualists and meditation groups around Brisbane. Detectives also uncovered phone
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: records which showed that several calls had been made from
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the Windsor Spiritualist Church to Kathleen Marshall shortly before she died.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: So we now have a cat and phone calls made
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: from this Spiritualist church that are connected directly to Kathleen.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Could be could be. I don't want to say the
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: cat is directly connected. It's a Siamese cat, it's a
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: lead okay.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm I'm not meaning to chuckle, but it
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: just seems like this case is just, I don't know,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: just a web of a bunch of things saying that's.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Exactly what it is. Trust me, it was hard to
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: write because it was a web a bunch.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Of things, and it seems like things that she was
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: involved in shouldn't have been things that got her murdered. Yes,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: so it's almost just I don't know, it feels almost
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: not real.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I guess a question here is too, is are the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: things she's involved with are they actually related to her murder?
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: As well? We don't know, and you I'll give you
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: some more information as we go through this and you'll
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: be able to make your own opinions. But I can
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: certainly say it's a web of bullshit information or however
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: you put it, that's exactly what this is. It is
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: all over the place. You need your thinking cat.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it doesn't seem like it should have been
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: like her. I guess her lifestyle doesn't seem like it
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: necessarily should have been put her in this position to
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: get murdered, and also be this difficult to potentially.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Solve for sure, But if she was getting close to
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: money issues. If she was potentially taking away opportunities for
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: people to launder money through this rescue, you know, then
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: things could get dark.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Now, Andrew fitz Herbert was another name connected to that
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: same spiritualist circle and was also Ruth's husband. He had
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: reportedly been present at the church around the time some
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: of the calls were made to Kathleen. From there, investigators
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: began focusing more heavily on Andrew and his possible connection
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: to the unidentified man who was seen carrying a Siamese
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: cat towards Kathleen's clinic. Now, Andrew was an unusual figure
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: even before police began looking closely at him. He described
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: himself as a spiritualist and a palmist and had founded
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: something known as the Queensland's Palmistry Guild, and acquaintances described
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: him as deeply involved in seances, tarot readings, meditation groups
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: and many alternative spiritual practices. He was not known to
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: be a violent man. In fact, some people who knew
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: him considered him very gentle eccentric, sure, but he was
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: strongly anti violence. Now detectives quickly became interested in one detail.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Andrew allegedly denied ever knowing Kathleen Marshall at all. Now,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: that answer immediately stood out to investigators as odd, because
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: police believed they had multiple reasons to suspect otherwise, not
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: to mention that witnesses had seen a man carrying a
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Siamese cat towards Kathleen's property and his wife, Ruth owned
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: a pregnant Siamese cat that had just gone missing, and
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: she was.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Hanging posters for it. So of course they would somewhat
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: know each other, right if it's the same cat, yes, well,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: but still even if she's hanging those posters, he would
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: like know.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Of her, correct, because she's clearly working for Ruth, like
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: helping trying to find this cat, right, So clearly they
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: were acquainted in at least some manner.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Detectives also discovered phone calls had been made from the
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Windsor Spiritualist Church to Kathleen's number shortly before her death.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: And Andrew, as I mentioned, was reportedly present at the
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: church when those calls had occurred. Now, none of it
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: proved any sort of murder, mind you, but it was
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: enough to push police towards obtaining his DNA, trying to
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: rule him out, to say the least. Now, Andrew initially
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: refused any sort of voluntary blood sample or anything, which
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: only intensified police's suspicion over him, so investigators attempted legal
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: avenues to compel a sample to be given, but the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: process became complicated and eventually slow, so police executed a
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: search warrant at Andrew's home, and during the search, investigators
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: seized a handkerchief containing mucus that forensic scientists believed they
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: could use to obtain his DNA, and when the testing
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: results came back, detectives believed they finally had their breakthrough because,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: according to forensic scientists, the DNA profile recovered from that
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: handkerchief matched the unknown male blood found inside Kathleen Marshall's clinic.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Dunt dun now.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: The statistic probability of the matched figures presented by experts
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: they were staggering. Now. They did range when they talked
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: about it in court, and estimates range from one in
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: one hundred thousand two figures reaching into the trillions, even
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: on the odds of it being someone else's blood or house. Okay,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: so you have a one in one hundred thousand chance
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: at the very bottom end of the range of probability
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: but either way, I need to highlight that the range
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: was staggering. It was like, the odds are almost certain,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: but that's the key, almost certain.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: But it's pretty obvious that it's most likely his yea.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Most likely.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: That's okay.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: We can't say for sure. The odds are almost certain,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: most likely whoever you want to hide it, but it
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: is not one hundred percent. It is nearly one hundred percent. Now,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: as the investigation intensified, detectives became increasingly convinced that the
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: strange appointment listed in her diary could hold another key.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: According to Kathleen's appointment books, she had scheduled a consultation
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: involving the cat and a John Wilson for Thursday, February
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: twenty six, But as we know, no obvious John Wilson
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: connected to Kathleen could be identified, and they suspected that
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: he never existed at all. So if John Wilson was false,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: then the man carrying the Siamese cat may have deliberately
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: concealed his identity before arriving at Kathleen's property. Now Victor
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: and Pauline Lachardie, who were the witnesses who saw this
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: man approach the property around the appointment. They both eventually
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: identified Andrew as resembling the man they had seen carrying
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: the Siamese cat towards Kathleen's home. Neither identification was presented
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: as absolutely certain, but investigators considered the resemblance very significant,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: significant enough to care continue aggressively pursuing him.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Well, that's two things now.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Exactly then, According to some accounts, Andrew allegedly even had
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: injuries on his hands not long after the murder occurred.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Three things, three strikes.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Hey, Yeah, everything now seemed to circle back towards the
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: blood evidence that they had just connected to him. In
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: their theory, Andrew had arrived at Kathleen's clinic under the
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: pretense of bringing the Siamese cat. Something inside the surgery
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: escalated into violence, and during the struggle he cut himself,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: leaving behind traces of blood throughout the room before attempting
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: to wash up and escape through the broken window. There
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: was still one major problem, though police could not establish
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: a convincing motive. Investigator's knew Kathleen and Virginia had a
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: long and bitter history that conflict made immediate sense to detectives,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: but Andrew himself had no obvious direct grievance against Kathleen.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Friends and acquaintances described him as eccentric but generally non
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: vi and some even considered him deeply pacifist. The more
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: detectives looked at him, the stranger the case became. But nevertheless,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: detectives believed the DNA evidence was strong enough to move forward,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: and in July of nineteen ninety eight, Andrew fitz Herbert
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: was arrested and charged with the murder of Kathleen Marshall.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: And with that arrest, the investigation entered an entire new face.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Andrew stood trial for the murder of Kathleen in nineteen
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: ninety nine, and it had become a landmark forensic case,
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: one that many people believed could fundamentally change how criminal
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: prosecutions were conducted in the future. And the center of
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: all this was a simple but deeply controversial question, could
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: a person be convicted of murder almost entirely on DNA
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: evidence alone? The prosecution they believed the answer was yes.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: By the time the court proceedings began, investigators had spent
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: more than a year building their case around the blood
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: evidence recovered from Kathleen's clinic. Prosecutors argued that the crime
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: scene itself told a story of what had happened, and
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: it was not pretty. According to the Crown's theory, Andrew
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: had visited Kathleen's clinic under the pretense of bringing that
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Siamese cat connected to the mysterious John Wilson appointment. At
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: some point during the encounter, something escalated violently inside, leading
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: to the savage struggle that ended with Kathleen suffering more
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: than fifty stab wounds. The prosecution believed Andrew injured himself
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: during the attack, most likely either during the struggle itself
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: or while escaping through the shattered glass, and as a result,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: they argued that he left behind traces of his own
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: blood throughout the clinic while Kathleen fought for her life. Now,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: jurors heard extensive testimony from forensic scientists working at the
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: John Tong Center regarding the blood evidence collected from the scene.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Investigators had recovered more than two dozen blood samples from
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: very locations throughout the clinic, including the floor, walls, sink area,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: clean up materials, broken window area, and nearby objects inside
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: the room. Most of the blood was assumed to belong
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: to Kathleen Marshall, but several small samples were identified as
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: male blood that did not belong to the victim, and
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: those small samples, often described later as five drops of blood,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: would ultimately become the foundation of this entire prosecution case.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: One sample found on a plastic bag near the sink
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: area was described by forensic witness as containing a mixture
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: of both Kathleen Marshall's blood and Andrew's blood together. Prosecutors
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: argued this strongly supported the theory that both individuals had
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: been bleeding simultaneously during the struggle, meaning they were both
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: present at the same time bleeding at the same time.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Well, honestly, I think that's fair to think that's enough
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: for sure that if this is a crazy scene and
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: there's someone else's blood left there, I think that kind
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: of almost. Yeah, of course it.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Should, theoretically speaking, say that this other individual, the second
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: person's DNA, means that they were involved in the attack. Now,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: the jury also heard evidence regarding the mysterious Siamese cat
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: and the appointment made under the name John Wilson. Victor
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: and Pauline Lachardi identified this man as resembling Andrew approaching
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: the property carrying that cat. Now, investigators connected this testimony
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to the missing pregnant Siamese cat belonging to Ruth Bennett,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: Andrew's wife, as well as the phone calls placed from
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: the Windsor Spiritualist Church to Kathleen right before she died.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Although much of the case was circumstantial outside the DNA evidence,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: prosecutors argued that the pieces fit together in a very
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: coherent sequence of events. The defense, however, focused heavily on
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: the enormous gaps that still existed in the prosecution's theory.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Andrew continued maintaining his innocence and denied murdering Kathleen Marshall.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: His legal team repeatedly highlighted that police never found a
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: murder weapon, they never identified a clear motive, and they
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: never produced a witness who actually saw Andrew commit the murder.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Even the timeline itself remained disputed. Forensic entomologist Russell Luke
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: estimated Kathleen likely died some time between Thursday night and
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: the early hours of Friday morning, based on insect activity
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: present on the body, but several witnesses claimed that Kathleen
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: was seen alive throughout Friday afternoon and even into the evening.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Neighbor Warren Smith insisted he saw Kathleen return home around
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: four forty five pm Friday, while multiple people reportedly heard
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: screams near the property around six pm. Those contradictions created
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: serious uncertainty around the actual time of death, and the
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: defense also challenged aspects of the forensic evidence too. At
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: the time, DNA only murder prosecutions were still extremely rare worldwide,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: and the scientific techniques involved were unfamiliar to most jurors,
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: so questions were raised regarding laboratory interpretation, probability calculations, contamination safeguards,
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: and the broader reliability of using such small biological samples
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: as the primary basis for a murder conviction. Still, prosecutors
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: remained confident throughout the proceedings, and the Crown repeatedly argued
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: that while motive may remain unknown in some murders, physical
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: evidence did not lie, and from the prosecution's perspective, the
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: most important fact in the case remained unchanged. Andrew fitz
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Herbert's blood had been found inside the clinic where Kathleen
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: was brutally murdered. After hearing the evidence, the jury retired
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: to the liberate and the verdict came back only a
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: few hours later. Andrew fitz Herbert was found guilty of
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: the murder of Kathleen Marshall. The conviction immediately became historic.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: It was widely considered as the first murder conviction in
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Australia cured solely through DNA evidence, and one of the
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: earliest cases of its kind anywhere worldwide. During sentencing, Justice
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Mackenzie acknowledged the groundbreaking nature of the prosecution, remarking
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: that Andrew likely would never have been convicted quote but
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: for the recent explosion in knowledge in the field of
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: genetics end quote. To many people watching the case, the
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: verdict represented a major triumph from modern forensic science. Investigators
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: had solved a brutal murder without eyewitnesses, without a confession,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: without a murder weapon, relying and set on microscopic traces
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: of biological evidence invisible to the naked eye. But not
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: everyone walked away convinced. One of the biggest problems involved
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: the timeline of Kathleen's death. We heard during the trial
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: that prosecutions relied heavily on the forensic entomology evidence, estimating
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: that Kathleen most likely died sometime between nine pay and
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: three am Friday, but several people reported seeing Kathleen alive
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: throughout Friday, so how can that be possible? Katherine Stevenson
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: stated that she saw Kathleen shopping at Wilston Friday morning
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: while wearing that blue and white striped sun dress she
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: was later found dead in neighbor Warren Smith insisted he
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: saw Kathleen return home around four forty five pm. Multiple
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: witnesses heard the screaming at six pm, and Warren again
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: later claimed he heard Kathleen's front door shut around eight pm.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: If those sightings and sounds were accurate, then Kathleen could
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: not have died Thursday night, and that contradiction became one
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: of the central arguments raised by people questioning Andrew's conviction
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: and if Kathleen was actually killed Friday rather than Thursday,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Andrew reportedly had a much stronger alibi for Friday. According
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: to several accounts discussed after the trial, Andrew spent portions
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: of Friday night attending meditation sessions and spiritual gatherings gatherings
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: with other people, so there were witness to say he
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: was somewhere else. Then came the growing controversy surrounding the
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: DNA evidence itself. At trial, prosecutors presented the DNA evidence
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: as extraordinarily powerful, but after the conviction, outside experts and
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: critics began examining the forensic evidence a little more closely,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: and several troubling questions emerged from it. One major issue
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: involved the interpretation of the blood samples recovered from the clinic.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Critics argued the findings in Andrew's DNA at the crime scene,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: finding it there was not necessarily the same as proving
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: that he committed the murder itself, and that argument became
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: especially important because of the Siamese cat appointment. Some experts
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: later suggested that if Andrew had previously visited Kathleen and
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: her clinic with a cat and maybe been scratched or
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: cut during the appointment, it would explain the presence of
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: his blood there without him being the killer. Ironically, though,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: there's a bit of a twist with that, because Andrew
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: repeatedly denied ever knowing Kathleen, and that fact may have
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: actually strengthened the prosecution's case against him because it eliminated
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: innocent explanations for his blood evidence being at the crime scene.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: If he did say I did know her, if he
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: did say I was there in an appointment, and he did
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: say I got scratched by a cat. It could mean
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: his blood was there innocently.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Jeez, but why would he But then the fact that
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: he is lying or saying he didn't know it makes
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: him appear way more guilty exactly like definitely guilty almost now.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: Questions also emerged about the laboratory procedures used during the
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: testing at Jongtong Center. At the time Kathleen Marshall was murdered,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: the laboratory was not accredited by the National Association of
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Testing Authorities. Later reviews and criticisms pointed towards alleged irregul
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: sularities involving evidence handling, documentation, process, contamination safeguards, and the
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: interpretation of DNA profiles. Some highlighted reports suggested the laboratory
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: records contained crossed out results, incomplete notes, and disputed interpretations
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: of mixed DNA samples. One particularly controversial issue involved claims
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: that one blood sample may have initially produced a male
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: DNA profile different from Andrews, before later being excluded or considered.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Then Kathleen Marshall's own DNA reportedly was never fully profiled
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: against all of the blood samples recovered from the scene,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: several female blood samples were effectively assumed to belong to Kathleen,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: without complete comparison testing ever being done. They saw it
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: was female DNA and assumed it was Kathleen's.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Oh boy.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: And critics also pointed to bloodied shoes that were covered
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: from the scene that were never conclusively linked to either
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: Kathleen or Andrew through sizing or additional forensic analysis. We
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: don't know whose shoes those were.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Huh. Okay, I just had this thought though. I could
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: see maybe Andrew just lying because like, imagine being asked
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: that question right when the person has literally just been murdered.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: You could just be like kind of freeze and be like, oh, no,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know that person at all kind of thing
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: because you just don't want to go there. You don't
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: want to be involved for sure.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: But then your defense would be like, well, no, under
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: the pressure, like we talked about it, he does actually know,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: you know, but he's firm he didn't know her.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: If he caved and said, you know what, my mistake.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: I was a little scared at the time, and then
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: he said it, that would still help him in court.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: It would.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So as the years passed, the Kathleen martial case
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: slowly evolved from a celebrated forensic breakthrough into something far
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: more complicated and far more controversial. For supporters of the verdict,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: the case remained simple. Kathleen Marshall had been brutally murdered
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: inside her own clinic. The killer had bled during the attack,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: and that blood matched Andrew fitz Herbert to them the
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: conviction it represented exactly what modern forensic science was designed
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: to accomplish. Even without eyewitnesses or confessions, microscopic evidence had
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: identified the killer, but for others questions surrounding the investigation,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: The timeline and the evidence continued growing. As the years passed,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: legal appeals and reviews continued to be challenged, varying through
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: aspects of the case. Andrew himself maintained his innocence throughout
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: his imprisonment, and during one appeal he represented himself in
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: court and accused forensic scientist Ken Cox of fraud involving
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: the DNA evidence, But without independent evidence proving misconduct or contamination,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: the conviction remained in place. Still, the broader debates around
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: the case never fully faded. Over time, the Kathleen Marshall
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: case became increasingly cited in discussions surrounding the prosecutor's fallacy,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: which is a concept warning against confusing the rarity of
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: DNA match with an absolute proof of guilt. And that's
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: where I'm talking about it's likely his DNA, not it
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: is his DNA.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Well, honestly, the fact that this is the first case
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: you know that had used this kind of method honestly
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: makes it seem not so much like a slam dunk,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: really like there could have been errors.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: There could have been. Now. It's not to say that
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: it was not being used otherwise, it's just the first
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: time it was used to prosecute this way in court,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: But still, even so, it being so new does kind of,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: you know, I guess, give you a little bit of
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: potential doubt in your head.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: Room for error. Yeah, for sure. Critics argue the jury
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: also may have been overwhelmed by massive statistical probability figures
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: without fully a prehating the limitations and assumptions underlying the
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: forensic analysis itself. Even some people connected to the original
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: trial later expressed uncertainty, with at least one juror eventually
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: questioning whether Andrew had truly received a fair trial given
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: the complexity of the scientific evidence present during the proceedings.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: But now more than two decades after Kathleen Marshall was
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: murdered inside her VET clinic on Main Avenue, the case
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: still remains one of the most debated and controversial murder
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: investigations in Australian criminal history. On one level, the case
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: appears solved. Andrew Fitzherbert was convicted of murder in nineteen
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: ninety nine and sentenced to life imprisonment. Courts upheld that
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: conviction despite appeals and ongoing criticisms surrounding the forensic evidence.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: From a legal standpoint, Queensland's authorities considered the case solve,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: but in many ways, a public conversation surrounding Kathleen's death
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: never truly ended. Meanwhile, Kathleen Marshall herself slowly risked becoming
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: overshadowed by the controversy surrounding her death. Before she became
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: the center of a landmark forensic case, she'd spent decades
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: building a reputation as a veterinarian animal advocate, fundraiser and
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: activists deeply involved in causes throughout Prisbane. Friends and supporters
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: remembered her as fiercely intelligent, passionate, and uncompromising. She dedicated
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: enormous amounts of time and money towards animal wealth, for
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: organizations and veterinary causes, often prioritizing rescue work and advocacy
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: over her own comfort. Even people who found Kathleen difficult
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: or abrasive generally acknowledged her commitment to animals was genuine.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: In the years following her death, efforts were made to
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: preserve that legacy beyond the circumstances of the murder itself.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, the University of Queensland officially
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: opened the Kathleen Lamberd Building in its Saint Lucia campus,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: naming it using her mating name. Funds from Kathleen's estate
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: contributed significantly towards the project, and a portrait of her
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: was later displayed inside the building. Former colleagues at the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: university described her as someone who threw herself completely behind
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: causes that she believed deserved support, whether helping animal organizations,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: fundraising for veterinary programs, or campaigns for environmental preservation, Kathleen
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Marshall had rarely done anything with only half of her effort. Meanwhile,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: the cat Protection Society itself, however, never escaped the shadow
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: cast over it by the case. The organization had already
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: been deeply fractured by Kathleen's murder, and the investigation only
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: intensified the paranoia and bitterness that existed between members. Years
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: of disputes, accusations, and public scrutiny damaged the society's reputation permanently. Now,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: what makes a Kathleen martial case so enduring is not
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: simply the brutality of the murder itself, though the violence
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: was definitely the extraordinary, to say the least. Nor is
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: it only the bizarre mixture of spiritualists, cat rescues and
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: forensic genetics, internal rivalries, many conflicting timelines, all of it.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: It endures because the case leaves people uncomfortable. There is
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: no clean ending, no universally accepted explanation ties every single
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: loose thread together perfectly. Even after the conviction, lingering questions
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: continued hanging over the investigation. Why was the murder so frenzied?
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: Was the timeline wrong? Was the DNA evidence interpreted correctly?
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: Why was there never a convincing motive? Did investigators become
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: too focused on one suspect once the DNA pointed towards him,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: or did the science reveal the truth. Despite the confusing
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: surroundings and the rest of the case, those questions have
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: never fully gone away, and perhaps that's why the murder
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: of Kathleen Marshall continues to fascinate people still to this day.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: The case represents both the incredible power of forensic science
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: and the dangers of placing too much certainty and evidence
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: that still depends on human interpretation. All we know is
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: that somewhere inside the overgrown Australian property on Main Avenue,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: hidden beneath the cluttered rooms, frightened animals, broken glass and
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: blood covered clinic floor, a woman lost her life in
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: an act of horrifying violence and what followed afterwards became
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: one of the most controversial forensic murder cases that Australia
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: has ever seen. And that's the story of Kathleen Marshall. Hmm,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: So what do you make of that one? I told
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: you it'd be all over the place, controversial in questions
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: and it.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: Was a lot to follow, for sure. I think that
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: that should definitely be It seems like it should be
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: a murder mystery like game of sorts.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: I feel like you're saying that more and more often.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: You think, I think, so, well, this one just I
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: don't know to follow this right in all the pieces.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: It's very difficult, it is. And well, the problem is
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: if we turn this into a murder mystery, it's not
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: like we're gonna solve it. Everyone goes home not knowing
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: what happened.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: True, Okay, So the one thing too that is sticking
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: out in my brain is technically there could have been
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: a female DNA other than hers there because they didn't
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: test that, correct. And what was that lady's name that
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: she had the beef with again?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: Was it Victoria or something with a V. You're catching
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: me off guard here, I gotta go back through my notes. Virginia.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: It was Virginia, Okay, Virginia. So technically, yeah, like they
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: just assumed it was a man that did this and
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: it was just a singular man and they didn't test
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: to see if there was maybe also like a female.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: Accomplished or something accomplice.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: Accomplice.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, allegedly that is correct.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: Huh, because it is very difficult to understand the just
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: the lack of motive right.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: With the other with the guy well, and that's the thing.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: It seems like there is some shady shit going on
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: inside this cat society.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: Which bothers me a lot.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: But and I mean, okay, just for argument's sake, here,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: let's put Virginia at the helm of this. Say she's
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: got the one with the motive because she does so,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: say she wants Kathleen dead. Okay, why didn't she do
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: it herself? Why this guy? Maybe she did do it herself,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: we just looked down the wrong avenue. Or maybe she
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: did hire this guy. And if she hired this guy,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: why would she hire this guy? Wouldn't she hire someone
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: who doesn't know Kathleen at all? Clearly he does know
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: because the little little uh missing cat poster thing, you know.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: So like there's so many open questions that just do
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: not make sense.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: But also I feel like whatever was going on in there,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: I don't I just don't feel like it would have
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: been enough either to kill but it had happened previously too,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: possibly right, so that that organization has some shady ass
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: shit going on in there.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: But I do have I do got to say something.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: I do think you're onto something by saying, well, it
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: could potentially be female I actually think it likely was,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: is my guess. Maybe there was two people present, not
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: just one, that's my guess. And I think it was
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: a female who attacked. We have over fifty stab wounds, correct, Now,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of them were very shallow, which says to
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: me the person could be of eve, of similar height
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: and strength as Kathleen, but simply overpowered her because of
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: a weapon. Now, if it's a man, not saying it's
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: every man, but typically men are generally stronger. Speaking, yep,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: I think there would be less stab wounds if it
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: was a man because I think he would have been
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: able to overpower her quicker, and there'd be less superficial injuries.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Now that's not a guarantee theory, but that is a
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: theory I have in this case.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, they also do say like that kind of
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: amount of wounds. It's like emotional too, right, So there
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: would have been you would imagine some sort of quite
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: some hatred.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: Right. So I imagine a good fight between two people
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: who are of equal stature and size and strength. The
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: only difference is one was caught off guard and the
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: other has a knife, huh, or a weapon of some
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: sort of implement to cut who knows, So I think
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: I think it could likely be a female perpetrator.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: I also think that Andrew has something to do with it,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: because his blood is there clearly, and he said he
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: didn't know her at all, so then why is your
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: blood there?
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: But unless there is just like you know, in that area,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: there's probably one other person that maybe has similar right, Yeah,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: that is the possibility. Yeah, very unlikely, but it's there.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: Well, And the problem with this is there's so many possibilities,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: so many avenues, so many questions, so many unanswered questions,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: and like so many things we just do not know,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: and even the things we do know, they're not even
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: that certain.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: Hmmm. Thet's quite bizarre.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: The only certainty we have is that Andrew's blood was
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: likely found in there.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: It was probably his blood, not going to say it was,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: but it was probably his blood and why was it there?
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: And he has no answer for that?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: So well, Yeah, it's quite sad because she doesn't seem
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: like someone you know, like she was doing like good,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: good important work and like we need people like that
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: in this world, and so it's pretty shitty that she,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: you know, got taken down like this. For I feel
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: like it can't be for that good of a reason.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: No, it was probably for money, protecting money, protecting things
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: going on behind a corrupt group of people. Jeez. So
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: that was an interesting want to research and write. Hopefully
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: I got all the information across appropriately. If you guys
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: have any thoughts or concerns or anything, if you have
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: an idea on what you think happened, shoot us a message.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: Would love to hear it. We've got our social links,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: we have our new website up, We've got all the
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: stuff in the description of this podcast. You can check
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: it out. You can give us a review or an
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: independent show. It goes a long way. And as always,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: thank you for being here. And again, as always, stay wicked.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: A B.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: A B.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: A B B o