Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / How To Change Your Life: Build Confidence By Taking Action | Success | E544

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How To Change Your Life: Build Confidence By Taking Action | Success | E544 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What is my purpose in the world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I'm doctor Lisa Marie Bobby. This is love, happiness and success.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: And here's the deal. If I were to ask you, friend,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: what do you really need to do in order to
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: move the needle and get where you want to go?
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: You would probably be able to tell me at least
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: least part of it, because you know what you need.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: To do it straight on.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Another another thing, it's a the harder part oftentimes is
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: doing the thing.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: I was always sort of like wired for success, and
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: until I was in my thirties is I was really
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: just kind of like ascending up this corporate ladder.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: And figuring out not what to do, but like why
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: haven't I done it already? And that is the question
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: we're going to be tackling today about how to do
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the things.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Why am I choosing this as opposed to medicine or
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: consulting or something completely different like poker.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: And my guest has the answer. You're going to love her,
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Kate pull. She is a former Supreme Court lawyer and
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: the number one female poker player in the world.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: And I just loved the strategy of it. I loved
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: the psychology of it, interpreting people's body language and they're
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: timing and.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: The author of you can just do things. So I
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: think she knows a little bit about how to make
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: stuff happen. And her whole message is agency, personal agency,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: and the things that happen to us are not luck.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: We can make things happen in our lives, and that's
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: what she's going to be teaching us today.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Agency ultimately is really about getting over the psychological hang
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: ups that keep us from being more free. So that's
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: like loss of identity, fear of embarrassment, fear of rejection,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: and failure by other people, by the world.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: So excited to talk to you, Kate.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Thanks, I'm so excited to be here, really looking forward
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: to this conversation.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you, like on a personal level,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: when I read your autobiography, at first I thought it
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: was a joke. I was like, and Cia spy, you know, like,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: am I getting pranked right now? Like you have so
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: many different layers of accomplishment in your own life, and
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I was thinking, well, this girl must practice what she preaches,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: and so you know, take us into this like you've
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: been applying this principle.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: I have definitely just done things in my life with
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: great success. Yeah, So a lot of what I think
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: about and write about in the book that I've coming
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: out is like how to approach personal agency and developing
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: personal agency from the perspective of somebody who wasn't born
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: with it naturally. And I think that might be surprising
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: if you go through my biography and you see, well,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: I've had success in a bunch of different fields. But
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's one of the really interesting things about
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: agency is I was always sort of like wired for success,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: and until I was in my thirties, I was really
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: just kind of like ascending up this corporate ladder. I
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: went to law school because I got into a good
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: law school. I did the clerkships, I did the practice
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: at like an elite firm in DC, and I was
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: very successful, but I was very low agency. I wasn't
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: really thinking about why am I doing the things that
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I'm doing with my life. I was just sort of
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: an autopilot. The ten plus years since then has really
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: been about stepping off that letter, stepping back and figuring
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: out what do I want out of life and then
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: going and getting it. And the answer to what do
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I want has changed a lot over time. It's been
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: poker and biotech, than philanthropy, than writing. But I have
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: cultivated this responsiveness to the answer to that question for
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: me and then like a willingness to go out and
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: figure out how to get that thing.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: I cannot wait to crack into this story before we do. Though,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: just for our friends who are here with us today, Kate,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: who who might not be familiar with the term that
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: we're talking about, you know, agency, let's define that. How
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: do you see agency? What does it mean?
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Great? I love it because it's like it's it's
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: kind of having a moment in the discourse right now.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: But everybody has a slightly different definition that they're working with.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: The one that I prefer is the capacity to both
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: see and act on degrees of freedom that other people overlook.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: So it's like noticing that you actually have optionality in
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: life where you might otherwise not, and then having the
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: courage to act on that realization.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Amazing. Okay, So, like nerdy psychologists like me call that
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: the locus of control, meaning this belief that your action
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: will have impact on the world. You're taking this a
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: step further though, You're saying not just that you do
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: have the ability to change, but this seeing the opportunities
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: is also part of it for you.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I think that's a huge part of it. And I
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: think that is like coming to see the world in
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: terms of a thing that you have responsibility for your
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: life and the rest of the world is sort of
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: the fundamental shift that I'm talking about. And you can
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: think about that as like shifting the locus of control
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: from something that is external to something that is internal.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: It's really like a matter of changing the orientation that
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: you have to problems where instead of thinking somebody should
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: do something about this, you think like, oh, maybe I
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: could do something about this, and you you change the
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: world around you as a result of that.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Flight. This is so good. You're saying that. The shift here,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: and this is the big one, is that there's a
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: we can get into this headspace when we look outside
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: of ourselves and like see a wall and think I
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: can't because of this mountain, this obstacle, this whatever. Somebody
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: should do something because otherwise, you know, I'm just going
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: to have to stay here. And the real shift is
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: this energetic one. It's like I could do something.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: This is actually my absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And I think
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: you know it's a it's a wall that lives on
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a completely like it exists on a completely unconscious level.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: So it's not like we consciously consider oh am I
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: the person to do that. No, it's somebody else. It's
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: just like sort of inherent in the structure of our
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: relationship with the world that like if if there's a problem,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: you know, with the quality of water in my town,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: like I think, man, the city council should get on that,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Like somebody should fix that, instead of thinking like what
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: can I do to change it? And it's it's so
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: subtle that it is almost like the structure of reality itself.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: The structure of reality itself. Man, I've known you for
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: like four minutes, Kate, We're already like going so deep.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I love this. It's really good though, because it's like
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: this energetic perspective I've I've tried to have this conversation
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: sometimes with clients who I will now be recommending your
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: your book to, by the way, but like the metaphor
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: is like a bubble screen, like you're you're underwater and
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: there's like this this wall of bubbles floating up and
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: it looks you get up to it, it looks solid, but
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: actually it's just bubbles. You can't pass right through it.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: And when you talk about like the nature of reality,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: that's what I just thought of. But take us more
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: deeply into how you think of this, as like the
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: way you perceive something actually creates your reality.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this idea. I am. There are so
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: many different ways I could go at this, because it's
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: a concept that I think about a lot, Like how
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: does the structure of your own psychology influence your understanding
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: of the world. And I think it's the case that, like,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: the more I think about it, the more committed to
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: this view of reality, I get, maybe appropriately, like people
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: have a default shape that they approach the world with
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: and that influences the way that we see everything. So
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: like the somebody will have a default shape that implies
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: one thing about their personal relationships, it also applies something
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: applies something about their professional domains. It's like, to give
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: a concrete example, I am. I am a warrior by nature,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: and I worry about things blowing up, and so I
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: approach my personal relationships with this perspective where I want
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: to make sure that there's like no friction in the relationship.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I approach world problems from this perspective, or I'm constantly
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: worried about, like what are the tail risks that could
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: go wrong? My husband is the absolute opposite. And there
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: are different ways of thinking about the structure, but like
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: attachment theory is one, that aneagram is another.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: We were just visiting about them. I'll just share with
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: our friends who are here with us. Before we started
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: talking and I was like, you've done actually all these
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: things in your life. Are you at any agram three?
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: And you said, no, I'm a one. You're one, which
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: is which is kind of like, you know, rule bound,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: and it's sort of the right way. I'm at anyagram seven,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: which is like the opposite, which is why people like
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: us are like the best of friends with each other.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And so you're seeing that in your dynamic with your husband. Absolutely,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of different ways to explain those differences.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Some of them are hardwired personality traits, certainly self life experiences,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: attachment as you brought up. So please continue.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think it's a really interesting it's a
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: really interesting way of viewing the world in terms of
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: these default shapes. Yeah, And it's it's especially interesting from
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: the perspective of somebody who is attempting to write personal
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: development or self help because the different default shapes that
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: people bring to the process of self examination really affect
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: the types of strategies that are going to be useful
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: for them. So, like the self improvement strategies for a
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: seven that are intuitive and comfortable are different from the
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: self improvement strategies for one that are intuitive and comfortable.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And also like the things that are unintuitive and uncomfortable
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: but also very potentially fertile ground for self improvement are
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: also different. And so you kind of need to bring
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: this awareness of the default shape into whatever journey of
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: self improvement you're on.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that it starts with with knowing yourself really is
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: what you're saying, And maybe we can can unpack that further,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: you know, so our friends can get some visibility into
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: strategies that would work for them. But you know, as
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: a doorway into this, if this is okay, if I
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: have your permission here, I'm wondering if you could share
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: more about your own journey, because I find it so
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: fascinating that, you know, even just in our beginning of
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: our conversation, you said that there was a long period
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: in your life where you were just kind of doing
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: the next thing without a lot of I don't know
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: if intention is the right word, but without a perception
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: of personal control, and then you had this shift and
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: it led all this magic happening in your life. Would
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: you take us more deeply into that is, to give
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: us an example of what it can look like.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: So.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: I think that I always had the sense that I
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: was in control of my destiny in this like narrow sense,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: like I was able to succeed at whatever the life
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: path I was on. And I sort of picked the
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: law because it was an obvious thing and just kept
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: doing it because it was there. I didn't have this
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: larger sense of like what is my purpose in the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: world and why am I choosing this as opposed to
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: medicine or consulting or something completely different like poker. And
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I think, sorry, it's really like great equivalent of running
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: away to join the circus a little bit, which.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Is also a good idea.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know somebody who did that. I like
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: to do, really ran away to drain the circus.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Very seven thing to say.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, that'll be the next buck you guys, stay tuned.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Lisa and Kate joins the Zerkus thing.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: So I mean I I was practicing law in DC,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: and I was getting to a point where I was
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: pretty close to making partner at the firm that I
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: was at.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And I think I was just looking around and noticing,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I really want to be doing this.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I envy the lives of the
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: people who I see succeeding at this. Yeah, what am I?
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: What am I doing here? And honestly, that is when
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I discovered psychedelics, which were like, are you from Colorado?
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: In Washington, d C? They're everywhere?
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Really? Yeah, I did not know that.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: And that was a really really important for me into
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: the world of agency because I think that, like, there
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: are many different doors that you can walk through to
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: become more augentic. I hope this book is one of them.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I think for a number of people, psychedelics are one
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: of them. And that's because psychedelics give you the capacity
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: to step back from your life and ask what is
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: this for? Why am I doing this? And I did
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: that and I realized I don't care about this world.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't really want to be in this world.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And so leaving law was for me a question of
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: just fleeing from that. Before I got like stuck in it,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: and I ended up going to play poker professionally because
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: it was like the thing that was of genuine interest
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: to me at the moment that I decided to leave LAW.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: I don't think I had this. I didn't have this
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: arc in my head of like I will go and
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: be a successful poker player. It was more just like,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I've been doing these things that I don't care about.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: What do I care about? What do I really enjoy?
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: And let me run towards that instead. And so that
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: was how I ended up playing poker. Kind of was
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: an escape patch and then I just loved it and
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: it was one of the most gratifying experiences of my life.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Playing poker professionally.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: It was what about it was gratifying.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I have to know, so fun, It's just so fun
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: to play poker. Like I am very competitive by nature.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I don't always allow myself outlets for that, but there
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: is something very nice about a poker table where everybody
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: has sort of agreed to like we're all.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: We're here to destroy each other, We're.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Here to story each other, yes, and it's just like
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: part of the social contract. And it was really comfortable
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: and I just loved the strategy of it. I loved
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the psychology of it. My favorite thing was like the
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the art and the science of live reads, so like
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: interpreting people's body language and they're timing and twitch exactly
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: exactly the Oreos and the Rounders movie, if you've seen that.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: I just got really interested in the like physical reads
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: and the psychology it implied and the theory of mind
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: that it required, and I fell in love with that.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that is so interesting. Did you have
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: like super cool sunglasses to like hide your eyes? Yeah
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: you did.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I found that almost nobody. I found it ultimately
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: not necessary to do that, because almost nobody knows what
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: to look for and live reads respectfully, and so even
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: not really trying very hard to disguise what you're doing
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: turns out to be fine. But it took me a
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: while to realize that.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Just like making a mental note to have you back
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: on the show for a part too, where we're going
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: to talk about that dimension of your expertise, Kate. Oh
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: my goodness, so so anyway, not to derail your story.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: I was just so interested and so that you had
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: this really powerful spiritual experience that led you to see
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: a disconnect between who you were, what you wanted, and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: the path of law. And then there was this really
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: just interesting kind of fun space and poker, and then
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: that the story continued on, but also highlighting the thing
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: here there was also this guiding I mean there must
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: have been that. It's like, I don't have to do
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: anything I don't want to do. I could go do
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: that instead. Oh yeah, you're applying the agency.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I loved that. I love that feeling of just not
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: being beholden to anybody and right, you know, you wake
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: up every morning and you do what you want and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: ultimately you are responsible for the shape of your life
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: in a way that has mostly not been my experience
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: when I've been working regular jobs. You know, like there's
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: nobody telling you what you should do. I love that. Yeah, amazing,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: That's how I've how I've gotten into entrepreneurship as well.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so wonderful. So listen, we need to take
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: a super fast break. But on the other side of this,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I would love to dig in more deeply to some
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: of the practices. I mean, you know, it's not just
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: that you had this experience that lived it in your
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: in your own life. You've been able to articulate it
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: and put it into a series ideas and practices that
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: can help other people take hold of their own power.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: And I would love to crack more deeply into that
• 18:24
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  Speaker 2: Two that's q U i ncee dot com slash lhs. Wow. Okay,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: so you guys, we are back with my very special guest,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Kate Hall. She is the author of the new book
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: You Can Just Do Things here to share with us
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: for wisdom around how to create really you know, magical, amazing,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Sometimes profound shifts actually happen in our lives. So, Kate,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: you were just sharing before we took a break, you know,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: some of the life experiences in your own eras your
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: own chapters when you grabbed hold of your own agents. See,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: and if it's okay with you'd want to dig more
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: deeply into this, you know, not not just what, but
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: but how? I mean, come out to Colorado eat a
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: bunch of mushrooms that we could start there, but like
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: what else?
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So I mean I think at the broadest level
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: and we can get more tactical. I'll give like the
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: broadest answer first. I think there are a number of
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: ways that people can kickstart their agency, and like roots
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: that people go through, psychedelics is one of them for
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of people.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I just to say, anybody who's having like, you know,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: feelings about that right there, please go back through my
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: feed and look for an interview with doctor Scott Shannon.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Not only can psychedelics really support the type of personal
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: transformation that Kate is talking about, there is a lot
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: of and also emerging research around the impact on sometimes
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: very like mental health, stuff that nothing else can touch.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Medicine doesn't help, therapy doesn't help. Psychedelics can actually help
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: in a very durable way. Go back through my feed
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: find the one with doctor Scott Shannon. Okay, sorry to
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: interrupt you, Kate. I just want to say that out
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: loud because I think some people aren't aware of the
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: legitimacy of it. Right.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: It's like, there is a tremendous amount of research these
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: days on a variety of psychedelics ANDDMA and katamine for
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: addressing various mental health issues, also just improving quality of
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: life generally. So I would encourage anybody who isn't familiar
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: already with that research to check it out, because I
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: think that's really changed in the last ten to twenty years. Yes,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: so psychedelics one door. Just incidental contact with people who
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: are hire an agency like that was really important for me.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I happened to work with people who just really were
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: high in this strait and I absorbed some of it
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: from them, like their way of living. I also think that,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: like for me, a part of the story was desperation actually,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: so post poker, not with psychedelics but with other drugs,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I fell into a period of serious drug addiction that
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: lasted about three years. And I think about this as
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: like as sort of the low point of agency in
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: my life, I've had a lot of swings in terms
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: of agency high and low. This is definitely the low point,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: and figuring out how to get out of that trap
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: and recover and rebuild my life from a pretty low
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: point was the thing that most helped me develop agency
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: as like a system of approaching the world. And I
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: think that people like desperation is not really a recommended
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: prescription for anybody. I wouldn't go out and cultivate a
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: sense of desperation, But there is a silver lining today
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: and this is like a thing that you hear in
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: work recovery programs a lot is people talk about the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: gift of desperation, and that's because desperation can be incredibly motivating.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: It can cause you to implement changes in your life
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: that you otherwise would not and re examine things at
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: a very deep level. And I think that ultimately, like
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: where I ended up in life is a product of
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: that period of desperation and needing to rebuild as much
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: as it is a product of any successful period that
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I've had. So like learning to get past the identity
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: related self concepts that keep us stuck in who we are,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I think that becomes a lot easier and more natural
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: if you're in a position of desperation because you don't
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: really have that much that you're holding on too. And
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I think agency ultimately is really about getting over the
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: psychological hang ups that keep us from being more free.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: So that's like loss of identity, fear of embarrassment, and
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: fear of rejection and failure by other people, by the world,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: and you learn through habituation or deliberate practice to get
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: over those things.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: your story, but also I think illuminating the power of
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: a very dark place and dark emotion that I have
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: so much respect for, because I think a lot of
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: times in our culture, you know, people want to push
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: these things away or like I shouldn't feel that way,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: or I don't want to acknowledge that, when in fact,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: there's such powerful GUIDs and that motivation that I think
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: can only come when you're like I cannot do this anymore.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: There's power there. And so what you're saying is that
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: like going into that place and harnessing that motivation allowed
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: you to re engage with a sense of agency that's like, yes,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: I can have this be different, I can get through
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: these you know obstacles, But can I okay, can I
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: ask you this part and just transparently and I say this,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: I've been addicted to things as well, and so I
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: think that one of the hardest parts for me looking
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: back into that is like it really damages the trust
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: that you have with yourself, you know what I mean?
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Like you almost need to repair your relationship with yourself.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: So many failures and like, no, I can't. I can't
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: have it be different. I can't get away from this
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: thing even though I know it's not a good idea
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: and that desperation is one of the things that can
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: like like, no, it has to be different, But like,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: can you take us into how to rebuild agency when
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: you know your lived experience with yourself has been I
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: am someone who cannot be different?
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Right? Does that under Do you understand what I'm saying there?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Completely understand that? Completely understand that. I think this is
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: like one of the most substantial barriers to recovery for
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of people is not being able to feel
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: compassion for oneself and the position that you're in. Also,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: this like practice of comparing one's current circumstances to pass
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: circumstances and feeling like, man, what a loser I am
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: that I let things get so bad, Like I'm never
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: going to be the person that I used to be.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I've wasted all this potential. All of these cycles are
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: incredibly self defeating obviously, and they really keep people trapped.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: And one of the techniques that I talk about in
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: the book actually is very well keyed to this. It's
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: something that I developed as I was trying to recover
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: from addiction. Many times I call it the crisis manager mindset,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: which is basically, like you like play act as though
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: you have been dropped into your life as a third party,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: neutral observer, not responsible for any of the mess that
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: you currently see around you, simply somebody who is there
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: to help solve the problem. You're a hired gun based
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: all right. And I think that that finding a way
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: to detach from the past in that way and say,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: what is the challenge immediately in front of me? What
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: is the next step that will allow me to address
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: that challenge and make progress? That little bit of play
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: acting can really help focus you on taking the next
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: best action, which is a huge part of recovery is
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: just starting to like accumulate progress against your goals. And
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: see that it is possible.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Wow, I love that technique. That's so good. I mean,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: just to go into that, like if I were being
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: hired to solve this problem, what would I do? And
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: mobilizing the sense of agency and possibility through that mental exercise,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I could see that being really effective.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: It can be really effective. And you know, there were
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: there are many occasions where I would like wake up
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: after a night of binging on drugs and just see
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: the mess around me, and I'm like I can't you know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I can't deal with this, and having the attitude of
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: like all right, well, like time to get to it,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: like I'm not I don't know what happened last night,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: but I'm here to help. It's like a little bit silly,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: but it is also extremely effective and that's kind of
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: all that matters when you're in a position like that.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I hear that your book is chock full
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: of different ideas and strategies to help people reclaim a
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: sense of agency, And you know, I wonder if you
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: could speak more to this. And also I'm going to
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: pull up I like to I like to post questions
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: to listeners in advance. Sometimes O great reviews on Instagram,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: and so I'd like to speak to some of their situations.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: But I'm also curious to know what types of mindsets
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: or strategies or even shifts of perspective have you found
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: to be helpful in you know, I think in this
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: day and age, I think so many of us are
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: looking around and aside from wanting to make change in
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: our own lives, right like, there's so much just crazy,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: big stuff happening, and that it can be easy to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: feel victimized. And I think I would argue you may
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: feel otherwise, but like that it's like the opposite of
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: agency is a sense of like I am a helpless victim.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Things are being done to me that I have no
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: control over. And certainly that is a lived experience for
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: some people at certain chapters. But I think the more
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: important part is how do we, even if you have
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: lived through those moments, come back into finding your power
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: and finding the moments where you do have some control
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: over your own life. Where do you even start with
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: people who have been experiencing that victimization to help them
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: reconnect with their control.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a really good question. I think
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: not everybody is starting from the same baseline. And cultivating
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: agency is not equally easy depending on your life circumstances,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: you know, And so I think I think that really
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: focusing on what does incremental improvement looks like look like
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: can be really beneficial for people. You know. When I
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: was deep an addiction and had like unemployable, had lost
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: all my friends, was like living in the trash like
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: trash department on the verge of losing it. I did
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: not aspire at all to the life that I have
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: today because that seemed like ludicrous. I focused on what
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: the incremental improvements that are available to me. I think
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: there is this like flywheel effect where if you're able
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: to prove to yourself that you have a bit of
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: control over your life, that proof point can become additional
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: motivation and you can sort of get this virtual cycle
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: going where you realize that you have control over your life,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: you exercise that control to improve your life, and your
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: ambitions just sort of like grow and grow. And that
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: has been my experience. I think that there is I
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: have yet to meet a person that is not able
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: to benefit from thinking more seriously about agency and where
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: they can exert it, and you know, it is I
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: think it's like totally fine to not aspire to be
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: some superhuman extra agentic person, but just to increase your
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: agency and the demands of life where that is available
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: to you at the time that you are trying to
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: front your problems and like go from there, and it
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: does become this virtual virtuous cycle.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like what I'm hearing in there is
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: almost retraining yourself on like who you are and what
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: you're capable of. When you do these little actions and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: you do this thing, other stuff begins to feel possible
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: that that just even starting has power.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, just getting started is actually a lot of
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: the problem. I'm not going to say most of the solution,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: but it's definitely a huge part of it, because then
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: like identity and self concept can get recruited in a
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: useful way as opposed to a self defeating way where
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: you're like the kind of person who is overcoming your
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: problems and that becomes self. What's the opposite of self
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: defeating empowering? Empowering?
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, yeah, no, But but then you know, and
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: there's actually a lot of science to back this up,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: is then i think I'm a psychologist right offered therapy,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: and I think that self awareness is so key, and
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: just to have a space to talk through things could
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: be very helpful. And there's also a lot of research
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: that suggests that taking action and having an experience like
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: the one that you're talking about can oftentimes get you
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: further faster than certainly talking about change. There can be
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: this belief that I need to feel a certain way
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: before I could take action, or I need to i
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: don't know, be different before I could take action, When
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: what you're saying right now, and what the research supplies
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: is that the taking of the action is what will
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: eventually help you feel a different way that it doesn't
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: happen first. Is that what you found as you were
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: working through this book in your own life.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely been my experience, and it's the thing
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: that I've had to learn over and over again as
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: I get to more subtle layers of self limitation that
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: I'm practicing. My husband, who is a coach, has this
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: way of describing it. I'm not sure if he came
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: up with it actually or not, but it's like the
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: contrast between thinking your way into acting better and acting
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: your way into thinking better. And I really like that
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: because I think there can be a temptation. With people
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: who like intellectualize their problems the way that I do,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: there can be this temptation to think, oh, if I
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: just am able to think the right set of thoughts
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: in the right order, I will see the wisdom of
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: the solution that is like out there for me, and
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: then I will naturally feel like taking the right steps
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: to change my situation. And I think that for many
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: of us, the opposite approach is actually the right one
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: and the one that is going to bear fruit, which
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: is like, regardless of how you feel about it, just
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: do the thing that you know is correlated with feeling
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: better and see how it goes and start like developing
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: that body of evidence about yeah, I.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Love that, and that's a sign on the door you
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: can just do the thing. And that is that one
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: of the main messages from your book, like you just
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: just stop thinking about it and just go do some things.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: I see. It's a lot of it. I think that's
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of it. Also, this this idea of like
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: a species of this is overcoming your fear of rejection
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: and fear of failure. I think that it is you
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: can you can really understand on an intellectual level that
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: rejection and failure are not that bad and they don't
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: mean that you are worthless as a person, and maybe
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: even oh yeah, it's a part of you know, getting
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: what I really deserve in life is asking for big
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: things and allowing myself to fail. But the thing that
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: actually works for getting over those those fears is experiencing
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: failure and experiencing rejection. And you can get used to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: that feeling pretty quickly, and it's not that bad once
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: you're habituated to it. But I think that like believing
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: that that rejection and failure are never going to are
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: going to like not hurt if you figure out the
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: right way to think about them is a mistake and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: it will keep you stuck, and instead you just need
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: to go out there and fall flat on your face
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: a little bit fail fast.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But so what you're saying is that a lot
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: of what keeps people stuck and in action is actually
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: this like anticipatory fear of how much things are going
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: to hurt or what's going to happen, like taestriphizing all
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: these things, And what you're saying is you know it
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: might and so what like, is it actually more painful
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: than being stuck here?
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly exactly.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: This is such good stuff. The other thing I will
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: share it. I'm sure that you came across this researcher
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: in your book as well, that like, when we think
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: about how we're going to feel in any given situation,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: either how happy we're going to be or how devastated
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: and upset we're going to be, that is actually more
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: significant in our minds than it actually is when we
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: live it. There's a lot of research that shows that
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: that that anticipatory feelings, And so what you're saying is
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: let yourself have the experience and find out because in
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: that there's this opportunity to develop and grow and restore
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: agency that and you kind of need to have that.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And I think you can also, Like
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: it may not be possible to ever completely overcome the
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: feeling of being rejected and like feeling that in your heart, yeah,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: but with habituation to that feeling and experiencing how bad
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: it is and how bad it isn't, I think you can.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: You can learn to overcome the anticipatory dread that you
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: feel about failure, which is so much of the total
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: like aggregate suffering that you experience with failure is just
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: the anticipation before it happens.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's so much of it. And I
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: think that you can address that form of suffering much
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: more easily than you can address the form of suffering
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: that comes from like feeling temporary pain when you actually feel.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or the pain that comes from being stuck in
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: something that is not not good. This is also good, Kate. Okay,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: we need to take another super quick break. On the
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: other side, though, we're going to land this plane, and
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: I would love for you to go more deeply into
• 39:36
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• 39:39
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• 39:41
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• 39:48
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  Speaker 2: recording this right now in my washable silk slip dress
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• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: So friends, we're back with Kate Hall, author of You
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Can Just Do Things, the new book that is preaching
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: the gospel of radical agency. I love it so much.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: And Kate, we've been talking about a lot of different
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: dimensions of this. You've been sharing experiences in your own life,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: and now that we're back on our final stretch, I
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: wonder if you could share some of the most powerful ideas.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously you have been experimenting in the laboratory
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: of your own life. You talked about being in a
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: very very dark place and then founder of a biotech
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: firm like you know, those kinds of things. So give
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: us some of the stratategy jeez that you employed to
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: help yourself get from here to there. And also some
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: of the things that you've seen be like rocket fuel.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: To tie together some of the stuff that we've been
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: talking about and to hopefully lead people some concrete things
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: that they can work on. The habituation to rejection that
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: we're talking about over the break is a great example
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: where you can just go out and get this. You
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: can engineer circumstances such that you are getting exposure to
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: the feeling of rejection in ways that are pretty low stakes,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: and that will do this thing of helping you address
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: and overcome the anticipatory anxiety and pain of the fear
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: of rejection. So a practice that I like and then
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: I recommend in the book is basically just creating circumstances
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: for getting rejected a lot. And that comes from just
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: like asking for relatively audacious things in circumstances where the
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: consequences of not having them granted are pretty low and
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: the overall psychological cost is low. So there's I'll actually
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: like reference another person's look in this which is rejection
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Proof by Ja Jong. He had this experiment where he
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: set a goal of being rejected one hundred times and
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: one hundred days, and the idea is you have to
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: go out in the world and do something make some
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: request such that you are experiencing rejection at least once
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: a day. And the examples he uses are like asking
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: to announce something over an airplane loud speaker and asking
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: the guy at Krispy Kreme to like arrange the doughnuts
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: in a particular shape. It can be kind of silly,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: but the goal is to get used to asking for
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: things that you know are probably not going to be
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: granted and just experience that, like the slight social disapproval
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: that comes from asking for things that are not things
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: that people want to give you. I think that's great.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Another one that ties pretty cleanly to this is the
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: concept of increasing your surface area luck. So a lot
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: of what distinguishes people who are super successful in the
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: world is just that they are creating a lot of
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: opportunities to get really lucky. So they're taking like a
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: lot of shots on goal and life. There are things
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: you can do to increase the amount of contact or
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: making with the world in a way that allows you
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: to get really lucky. So this is like finding opportunities
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: to meet people is really the big one, like going
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: to events, hosting events, writing on the internet in a
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: way that allows people to interact with the contents of
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: your mind, anything that is giving you touch points with
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: reality in a way that increases the number of people
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: you're coming into contact with. It's kind of like networking
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: that I think networking really has negative connotations.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm putting yourself out there, you know,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: people making friends, saying things right, like taking taking risks socially,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: but also like making contact while you do.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible, Like how much of my professional life,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: how much of my personal life has just come from
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: taking meetings where the value of it was not immediately
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: apparent at the time that I agreed to do it,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: and just having sort of an exploratory attitude toward interacting
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: with other people. Steve Jobs has a quote that I
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: really like, which is, you can't plan to meet the
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: people who will change your life. And I think that's
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: exactly right, Like you cannot develop an orderly approach to
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: developing the connections that are going to be meaningful for
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: you and end up steering your life, but you can
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: give yourself just a lot of opportunities to make those connections.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: And so that kind of is related to the courting
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: rejection point. But it's a little bit more of a
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: just increasing your surface area on the world and giving
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: yourself a lot of opportunities.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that you have control over that, not not
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: what happens necessarily, but being available for something.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you have.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, gosh, there is so much here. I
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: feel like, you know, just in talking with you for
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: the short period of time, we've talked about so many
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: important things and big ideas and useful, useful strategies. But
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I also feel like we've only just scratched the surface.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: If you're going into cultivating resilience, cultivating luck, like you
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: know that emotional desensitization, and I'm sure you go into
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: all of this so much more deeply in your book,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit more about that and
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: what else people will find in there that maybe you
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: and I haven't had a chance to get into today.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the idea behind the book for me was
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: trying to put together a sort of menu of practical
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: strategies for developing personal agency from the perspective of somebody
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: who wasn't born with it a lot like, didn't come
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: pre programmed with a lot of it, and who also
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: experienced some periods of super low agency later in life
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: in my mid thirties, and so, you know, those experiences
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: convince me that agency is something basically anybody can learn
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: at any stage of their life. And the idea here
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: is really to come up with a set of strategies
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: that people can apply and get results from. And so
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: it goes into a lot of the topics we've been
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: talking about, like the barriers to agency, overcoming the loss
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: of identity that can happen when you move into a
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: new domain in life, Overcoming fear of failure and fear
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: of rejection, and fear of embarrassment. I think there's this
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: whole host of concerns that keep people from noticing the
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: degrees of freedom they have, and so building the muscle
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: for noticing that is really the first set of strategies
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: that I talk about. And then there's a lot that
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: is just like getting a more accurate view of yourself,
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: getting a more accurate view of the world, and figuring
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: out the tactics that let you make progress on your
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: goals in life. So it's a combination of like you know,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: we started by talking about this two pronged definition of agency,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: which is the ability to see and act on the
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: degrees of freedom that you have. And so the book
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: really tries to address both of those topics seriously by
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: showing you how you can notice the degrees of freedom
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: that you have and then act on them.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. I have one last question for you, if
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: it's okay, and before I ask it, though, you know,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: something did bubble up for me just a little bit
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: as you were talking, and I just I feel like
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: to be a good friend to the people who are
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: with us right now, I need to say this a
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: deeply felt belief that there is no hope and no
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: you can't and even if you did try, it wouldn't
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: work anyway. Sometimes that can actually be a symptom of
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: clinical depression, like a major depressive disorder. And if that
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: is the case, the right thing to do is to
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: seek treatment. Gold standard evidence based forms of therapy. Cognitive
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: behavioral therapy, some medication can be very effective. Psychedelic therapies
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: can be very effective. Because that's like a there's a
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: biologically based almost like lid on your perspective that really
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: does require treatment. And so I just want to set
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: that aside as being a separate category. Then I think
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: in absence of that there's so much power and agency
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: and control that can come from these ideas, Kate, And so,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: you know, the last question for you then, is what
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: would you say to someone who has lost trust in themselves,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: who doesn't feel like they have a lot of power
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: control over their own lives, who's just kind of laying
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: there and maybe taking a more passive approach to the
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: world hoping that something could be different, but you know,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: waiting right, what would you say to them that might
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: be the one idea that could help them sit up? Like, Okay,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: here's what I could do.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I think it's like it's a little bit trite, but
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: it's just that I've been there, Like I've been in
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: a position in my life where I've been completely stock
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: and felt totally hopeless that things would ever be different,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: that I would have a good job, that I'd have
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: a good relationship, that I would ever have money in
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the bank account, you know. And I think that things
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: can get better a lot faster than you realize once
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: you start accumulating evidence that that is the case. And
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: so I would just encourage people to have hope, to
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: know that there are many people who have been through
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: it before, and there really is the capacity for change
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: even if it doesn't feel like it.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: I love that and I think especially coming from you,
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: just like with everything that you've done. But also and
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: thank you again so much for sharing your story, like
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: everything that you've lived through. I think that idea that
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: you know I'm not the only person that's felt this
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: way before, and you know, looking to you as like
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: an example of someone who who was able to start
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: taking action again. And I love that what you just said,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: it goes faster than you think it will, just start.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: So good Kate Hall, congratulations so much on your new
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: book You can just do things. And thank you so
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: much just for sharing your perspective and your wisdom with
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: us on love, happiness and success today. This was awesome.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much for spending this time
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: with me today. And if you have found this episode helpful,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: do your good deed for the day, pass it on,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: pay it forward, Share this episode with someone you care
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: about who might need to hear what you just heard today,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Close your eyes, think about who that is, and then
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: boop hits end now. As for you, if you are
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: feeling inspired by what we talked about today, if you're
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: ready to go deeper, whether it's in your relationship, your
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: own personal development, or maybe even your bigger sense of purpose.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I would love to help you. Come visit me at
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: growing self dot com. I have so many free resources
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: for you, but you can also schedule a free consultation
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: with one of the amazing licensed therapists on my team, who,
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: like me, specialize in evidence based coaching psychology. You can
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: do that. You can also explore the programs that we
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: have designed for you to create real and lasting change
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: in your life in a structured, step by step one way,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: and do not forget to go into my blog and podcast,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: my content collections where you can find exactly what you
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: need to support your journey of growth. And hey, let's
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: also stay connected. If we're not already connected, come track
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: me down. I am on Instagram periodically and would love
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: to hear from you. Or if you have a question
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: or comment about the show, just email me get in
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: touch hello at growyself dot com. All right, until next time,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: you take care and keep growing