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Body Bags: Dead at Daddy's Hands · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Death Investigator, Professor Forensics,
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott Morgan has been on over
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Speaker 1: ten thousand death scenes, and now he takes a part
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Speaker 1: in a way that only he can the homicides that
0:20
Speaker 1: we are all investigating. Whether you're in the thick of
0:24
Speaker 1: it with the police department or the FBI, or you're
0:27
Speaker 1: an arm chair sleuth, Joe Scott Morgan will give you
0:33
Speaker 1: answers Body Bags Joe Scott Morgan. Following subscribe now on
0:39
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you've listened to
0:44
Speaker 1: your podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's an
1:05
Speaker 1: old Bible verse that talks about a man whose quiver
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Speaker 1: is full, it is truly blessed. I've always taken that
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Speaker 1: to mean that a man that's been blessed with children
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Speaker 1: is a man that throughout his days will be happy
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Speaker 1: and whole. In this case, we have a man that
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Speaker 1: took those arrows out of the quiver and literally snapped
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Speaker 1: them into discarding them like they were nothing more than rubbish.
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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body backs. I'm
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Speaker 1: joined today with my good friend. Jackie Howard, executive producer
1:48
Speaker 1: of Crime Stories, would Nancy Grace Jackie, what can you
1:52
Speaker 1: tell us about this case? Joe? This is a particularly
1:55
Speaker 1: difficult case to talk about. Timothy Jones Junior had five children.
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Speaker 1: Children treated very poorly. Jones killed his children one at
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Speaker 1: a time and then traveled with their bodies across the South.
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Speaker 1: Let me lay out for you the order that these
2:12
Speaker 1: children died. Jones, thirty seven years old, exercised his six
2:17
Speaker 1: year old boy, Natant, until he died. It began with
2:22
Speaker 1: a broken electrical outlet in the home. The father, again, Jones,
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Speaker 1: thirty seven, made the boy run around their home until
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Speaker 1: he collapsed. The oldest child eight year old Mara, and
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Speaker 1: then there was seven year old Alliance, strangled to death
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Speaker 1: by their father. Then he choked two year old Gabriel
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Speaker 1: and one year old Abigail as well. After the children
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Speaker 1: were dead, Jones wrapped the bodies in plastic and then
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Speaker 1: drove around the southeast for nine days before dumping their bodies.
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Speaker 1: It's hard to understand, Joe, how someone can hurt another human,
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Speaker 1: let alone their five children. Give me an idea. This
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Speaker 1: poor child, a six year old brand was made to exercise.
3:12
Speaker 1: Tell me what was going on with his body? You know, Jackie,
3:15
Speaker 1: we've we've covered cases like this in the past where
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Speaker 1: we have individuals that just absolutely collapse as a result
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Speaker 1: of total and physical exhaustion. And when you begin to
3:24
Speaker 1: think of the physiology of say a young child, you
3:28
Speaker 1: think that they can, you know, kind of go on
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Speaker 1: forever and ever, that they're I'm not going to say
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Speaker 1: necessarily bulletproof, but their young bodies are not inhibited by
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Speaker 1: some of the factors that come along with age. But
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Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a potential for terminal event with
3:42
Speaker 1: any child or whatsoever. And so when you begin to
3:46
Speaker 1: press a child into this constant state of movement, and
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Speaker 1: he actually did this. He Jones actually described how he
3:55
Speaker 1: would make this child run in place, run around the
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Speaker 1: exterior of or mobile home, and then do something called
4:02
Speaker 1: wall sits, which is where he makes the child sit
4:07
Speaker 1: with his back like he's sitting in an imaginary chair
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Speaker 1: with his back placed against the wall. And it puts
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Speaker 1: incredible strain upon the skeleton and the muscles. And not
4:19
Speaker 1: just that, but you have to also factor in this
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Speaker 1: idea of fear. Can you imagine this little child he
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Speaker 1: is at the mercy of this grown man telling him
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Speaker 1: how worthless he is, how he's possessed, perhaps by demons.
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Speaker 1: This has been brought up at some point in time,
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Speaker 1: and the adrenaline is pumping in this little boy's body
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Speaker 1: and he's sitting there in total and complete fear. So
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Speaker 1: you've got these two factors that make up a perfect
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Speaker 1: storm here physiologically where you are wearing this child down
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Speaker 1: physically and then emotionally and mentally. He's being driven to
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Speaker 1: exhaustion just by this over of things like dopamine and adrenaline,
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Speaker 1: and of course at some point in time you're going
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Speaker 1: to collapse as a result of total exhaustion. Not to mention,
5:09
Speaker 1: there's also been a hint that there was some type
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Speaker 1: of striking that was going on with this little boy.
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Speaker 1: But like you had said, and this kind of gives
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Speaker 1: a hint as to what wound up happening here, these
5:23
Speaker 1: children were down Jackie for almost nine days. So it's
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Speaker 1: really really difficult, Joe, what happened to this child? Explain
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Speaker 1: it to me specifically, What does it actually mean? What
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Speaker 1: does it do to your body to break it down?
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Speaker 1: Are we talking about lack of water? Are we talking
5:40
Speaker 1: about his heart stopped. What is it that actually killed him? Well,
5:45
Speaker 1: when you begin to think about it, our body is
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Speaker 1: like a little engine, isn't it, and so it requires fuel,
5:51
Speaker 1: it requires lubrication, those sorts of things. And at a
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Speaker 1: cellular level, our bodies require things like electro lights. We
6:01
Speaker 1: hear about that electro light replacement. And athletes, you know,
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Speaker 1: even high high speed athletes have to have electro lights.
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Speaker 1: They drink all of these sports drinks in order to
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Speaker 1: replace them. You can have a compromise of your sodium levels,
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Speaker 1: for instance, and this goes to things that lead to
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Speaker 1: things like cardiac arrest. So when you're being deprived of
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Speaker 1: these basic elements and also included this is like potass him.
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Speaker 1: These are being consumed by your body, this little engine
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Speaker 1: in your body the entire time until you reach a
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Speaker 1: point where you're going to have a rhythm event with
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Speaker 1: your heart that's going to cause you to go into
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Speaker 1: cardiac arrests. It's unsustainable. And this child, Jackie, remember it's
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Speaker 1: child's only six years old, and he is being forced
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Speaker 1: by the one person that is in total control of
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Speaker 1: his life at that moment time and each day, day
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Speaker 1: in and day out, he knows no other master if
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Speaker 1: you will. So he is going to do specifically what
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Speaker 1: he is told to do, because if he doesn't, he
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Speaker 1: knows the price is going to be high, forced to
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Speaker 1: sit against the wall, or worse, maybe he'll be beaten
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Speaker 1: over and over again. You mentioned electrolytes. What exactly does
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Speaker 1: that mean? Because you hear it all the time you
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Speaker 1: as a parent. Your child gets sick, has diarrhea, has
7:12
Speaker 1: a stomach virus, has a cold, we worry about making
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Speaker 1: sure their electrolyte levels are okay. But what does it
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Speaker 1: actually mean when you have an electrolyte deficiency. This goes
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Speaker 1: to kind of the receptors in your body that are
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Speaker 1: at a physiological level that are telling telling the mechanisms
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Speaker 1: within your body, say, for instance, your heart to beat,
7:36
Speaker 1: and so these become compromised to the point where your
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Speaker 1: heart actually seizes after a period of time when they're
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Speaker 1: deprived of them. So at an elemental level, all of
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Speaker 1: these are being drained away everything, just like I mentioned potassium, sodium,
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Speaker 1: and of course this complex of electrolytes, so everything kind
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Speaker 1: of seizes up and compromises to the point where the
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Speaker 1: child is not going to have It is actually referred
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Speaker 1: to as a classic heart attack where we have a
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Speaker 1: blockage in our heart, because the child is six years old,
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Speaker 1: is not going to have blockage, or atheroscrotic cardiovascular disease
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Speaker 1: where they're going to have what's called a mio cardial infarction.
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Speaker 1: This is going to be a rhythm event where the
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Speaker 1: heart actually begins to spasm and in a moment, in
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Speaker 1: just like a twinkling of the eyes, suddenly the heart
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Speaker 1: stops after it begins to kind of seize, and the
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Speaker 1: child collapses, and of course oxygenated blood's not flowing through
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Speaker 1: through the body anymore, so the child's going to die.
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Speaker 1: If the child had received immediate medical attention, could he
8:38
Speaker 1: have been saved. Yeah, he could have been saved. And
8:41
Speaker 1: you know, that's really the tragedy of all of this.
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Speaker 1: I think that probably if Jones, at some point in
8:47
Speaker 1: time had maybe just shown one sintilla of mercy to
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Speaker 1: this little boy, he could have set him down and
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Speaker 1: given him a breather, maybe given him something like a
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Speaker 1: sports drink, maybe water, just water in and of itself,
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Speaker 1: because the child is also becoming dehydrated at this point,
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Speaker 1: just to give him a rest, maybe for twenty minutes,
9:09
Speaker 1: you know, that that little window there where if he
9:11
Speaker 1: had been granted just a little bit of restpite, he
9:15
Speaker 1: may have been able to endure. But just like my
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Speaker 1: analogy with a motor vehicle, he ran this child to
9:22
Speaker 1: the point where the engine essentially blew and the child
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Speaker 1: had had no chance of recovering from this. And what's
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Speaker 1: really a shame is that as this was going on,
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Speaker 1: I can almost tell you what happened, This child visibly,
9:35
Speaker 1: and I mean visibly, went into a seizure in in
9:40
Speaker 1: front of his father, this man who was supposed to
9:43
Speaker 1: be taking care of him. This child seized right there.
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Speaker 1: You can imagine, the body goes rigid, the thumbs are
9:49
Speaker 1: tucked back. You'll you'll see them begin gas for air.
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Speaker 1: They're kind of vibrating and shaking on the ground until
9:55
Speaker 1: there's nothing but just dead silence. How long have taken
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Speaker 1: for this child to collapse? And there we talk in
10:04
Speaker 1: an hour, two hours or all day. I think that
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Speaker 1: this is probably in totality, if you're going to run
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Speaker 1: this child to death. I think that there has been
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Speaker 1: mentioned in this case that this may have gone on
10:18
Speaker 1: in excess of two hours at one point in time,
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Speaker 1: and that would probably be sufficient to do this in
10:25
Speaker 1: and again, when you have this lethal combination of this
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Speaker 1: pumping of adrenaline, the deprivation of nutrients and the necessary
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Speaker 1: elemental essentials that we require as human beings, it is
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Speaker 1: a train wreck waiting to happen. And listen, there's also
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Speaker 1: something else that you have to factor in here and again.
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Speaker 1: I don't know if they were able to assess this
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Speaker 1: in the ton's body, but I'm thinking that there was
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Speaker 1: probably ongoing what's referred to as deprivation along the way,
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Speaker 1: where probably food and water for protracted period of time,
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Speaker 1: I mean, like days beforehand, we're probably being withheld from him.
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Speaker 1: So you have this kind of event that's going on,
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Speaker 1: and the father is just kind of sitting back waiting,
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Speaker 1: waiting for the verbial straw that broke the candell's back.
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Speaker 1: And as it turned out, you know, he accused the
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Speaker 1: child of short circuiting you know, the electrical system in
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Speaker 1: the house and put that on this little six year
11:22
Speaker 1: old boy. Can you imagine, you know, he had actually
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Speaker 1: claimed that the child had blown four sockets, you know,
11:28
Speaker 1: other than you know, sticking a paper clip in a socket.
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Speaker 1: Right now, I couldn't even tell you how to blow
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Speaker 1: a socket. In a house. How much more so does
11:37
Speaker 1: that apply to a six year old child? And that's
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Speaker 1: that is what the father was allegedly accusing the son of,
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Speaker 1: and the father actually admitted to it. So I would
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Speaker 1: have to imagine too that the size of a six
11:49
Speaker 1: year old played a large part in this too, because
11:53
Speaker 1: you know, six year old, how much do you weigh?
11:55
Speaker 1: Fifty pounds? If that yeah, it would be. And again
11:58
Speaker 1: you know, as adults, we have a certain a certain
12:02
Speaker 1: level of energy stores, and you know that's considered to
12:05
Speaker 1: be like fats for instance, that we carry on board
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Speaker 1: in our body, and so we have sufficient energy that
12:12
Speaker 1: we can call upon. And if we keep balance and
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Speaker 1: we're moving, we might be able to avoid saving to say,
12:18
Speaker 1: having some kind of cardiac problem, as long as we
12:21
Speaker 1: don't get into extreme where essentially the needle is in
12:24
Speaker 1: the red. If you will well this child, if he's
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Speaker 1: deprived of nutrients, if he's deprived of the bare essentials,
12:33
Speaker 1: and this has been going on not just in the
12:35
Speaker 1: acute that means sudden, but chronically where he's being denied food,
12:39
Speaker 1: all it's going to take is to push his little
12:42
Speaker 1: body closer and closer and closer to that red line,
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Speaker 1: and it's at that point that he can't recover from that,
12:49
Speaker 1: and it would not I think that it probably would
12:52
Speaker 1: not matter even if you had an er physician there
12:55
Speaker 1: with a crash cart where they're trying to revive this child.
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Speaker 1: I just don't see how they could have done it,
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Speaker 1: because the child had just literally been run ragged. Jackie,
13:27
Speaker 1: we've we've actually talked about just one of these precious
13:31
Speaker 1: little children and how that child, Naton, came to his death.
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Speaker 1: But you know, Jackie, there are four other children here,
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Speaker 1: four other children that this man had been gifted with,
13:43
Speaker 1: and they have a story to tell as well, don't they.
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Speaker 1: They do. Joe, eight year old Mara and seven year
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Speaker 1: old Alliance were strangled by Jones with his bare hands.
13:54
Speaker 1: That means most likely that he was looking the children
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Speaker 1: in the face when he killed them. Yeah, and that's
14:02
Speaker 1: that's what makes this kind of manual. And this is
14:05
Speaker 1: in fact manual strangulation where you're talking about the utilization
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Speaker 1: of your bare hands to choke, to choke another human
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Speaker 1: being to death. And there's many different types of manual strangulation,
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Speaker 1: but we have to assume that this was probably a
14:21
Speaker 1: throttling where you use both hands, you grab the neck
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Speaker 1: on the antier, which means the front, and you begin
14:28
Speaker 1: to squeeze, squeeze down until the child in these cases,
14:34
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, where these two children, we're
14:36
Speaker 1: both completely deprived of oxygen. Now there's two mechanisms at
14:41
Speaker 1: work here that can happen, Jackie. We have the mechanism
14:44
Speaker 1: of the squeezing that actually shuts down the blood flow
14:48
Speaker 1: to the brain, and it causes a condition with the
14:53
Speaker 1: brain that that deprives it of oxygenated blood that rises
14:59
Speaker 1: up out of the rotted vessels. So you're clamping those
15:01
Speaker 1: vessels down and absolutely the brain begins to kind of
15:06
Speaker 1: almost strangulate as a result of lack of blood supply.
15:11
Speaker 1: Then you have another thing that happens with manual strangulation,
15:15
Speaker 1: and that is when you have the trachea, the laynix,
15:19
Speaker 1: these structures that are kind of firm that are in
15:22
Speaker 1: our throat. You begin to think like the structure of
15:24
Speaker 1: the Adam's apple for instance, and of course the infamous
15:27
Speaker 1: highoid bone that's it's very high. What happens with this
15:31
Speaker 1: is that in addition to the blood vessels being clamped off,
15:35
Speaker 1: you're actually closing down or clamping down the airflow that's
15:42
Speaker 1: coming in through the nose, through the mouth and is
15:45
Speaker 1: going to the lung where this blood oxygen exchange takes place.
15:49
Speaker 1: And so that you've got these both of these mechanisms
15:53
Speaker 1: working at the same time, and so if one isn't effective,
15:59
Speaker 1: then the other mind be, and then you wind up
16:01
Speaker 1: with a combination of both, and of course the end
16:05
Speaker 1: is always lethal. How much pressure does it take to
16:08
Speaker 1: do this? And how was he physically able to do this?
16:12
Speaker 1: It doesn't take much with these tender young necks of
16:16
Speaker 1: these children. Remember these children are not very old, they're
16:19
Speaker 1: not very robust. This is a grown man. He's got large,
16:23
Speaker 1: probably muscled hands, and it's not going to take very
16:27
Speaker 1: much to overcome a child. And let me throw in
16:29
Speaker 1: one little aside here relative to Jones. Jones was interviewed
16:36
Speaker 1: and one of the investigators actually asked this man. He said,
16:39
Speaker 1: did the kids? Did the kids struggle? Did they fight back?
16:44
Speaker 1: And his response was chilling, absolutely chilling. In this is paraphrasing,
16:50
Speaker 1: he said, sure, wouldn't anybody, And just allow that to
16:54
Speaker 1: kind of seat down into your mind just for a second,
16:58
Speaker 1: that the dad could be that callous when he's describing squeezing,
17:02
Speaker 1: literally squeezing the life out of both of these children
17:07
Speaker 1: in those moments. And it really, you know, to your
17:09
Speaker 1: other question, it really doesn't It doesn't take very long
17:12
Speaker 1: if you will, to compromise or defeat the structures of
17:16
Speaker 1: the neck. You know, the way our bodies are put together,
17:21
Speaker 1: their mental function in kind of difficult circumstances, when it's
17:26
Speaker 1: cold outside, when it's hot, when we when we're sick,
17:29
Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. But when you begin to
17:30
Speaker 1: compromise the structure, the muscles, all the supportive tissues, these airways,
17:37
Speaker 1: and certainly these vessels that supply oxygen and blood, it's
17:40
Speaker 1: not going to take much with a small child. And
17:42
Speaker 1: I would imagine that the whole event for both of
17:45
Speaker 1: these kids was probably took no more than four to
17:48
Speaker 1: five minutes with each child. If that one thing that's
17:52
Speaker 1: that's kind of uh, that's kind of heartbreaking in this
17:56
Speaker 1: particular case, is the fact that one of the kids,
18:01
Speaker 1: one of the kids, actually is reported to have looked
18:04
Speaker 1: at his father as his dad is about to kill
18:07
Speaker 1: him and he said, Daddy, I love you. Can you
18:11
Speaker 1: imagine that is heartbreaking? Job just chilling, Yes, it is.
18:15
Speaker 1: Jackie and the fact that he would do this, and
18:19
Speaker 1: then you know you have to you have to try
18:22
Speaker 1: to and it's a scary thing to do. You kind
18:24
Speaker 1: of have to try to get into his mind. First off,
18:27
Speaker 1: why in the world would you want to And make
18:30
Speaker 1: no bones about it. This is a physical assault that
18:33
Speaker 1: results that stemming from the fact that he had essentially
18:38
Speaker 1: brought about the death of Natan simply through exhaustion and deprivation.
18:44
Speaker 1: He is purposed. He is purposed in his mind to
18:47
Speaker 1: begin to kill these children one by one. And it's
18:51
Speaker 1: a very rudimentary way to do it. It's not like
18:53
Speaker 1: he took the child out in some kind of complex
18:56
Speaker 1: event and and and ended their lives collectively. What he
19:02
Speaker 1: did here was at a very primal level. I mean,
19:05
Speaker 1: just think about it. This is very intimate and you
19:08
Speaker 1: really said something key here. When someone is choking another person,
19:13
Speaker 1: there's a high probability you're going to be face to
19:15
Speaker 1: face and it's one of the most intimate things that
19:17
Speaker 1: you can do as far as the perpetration of a murder.
19:21
Speaker 1: You're looking at them eye to eye. It's not like
19:24
Speaker 1: their great extended arms length. More than likely they're held close,
19:28
Speaker 1: the elbows are bent they're being drawn into their body
19:32
Speaker 1: and just being squeezed. They're trying to apply the perpetrators,
19:35
Speaker 1: trying to apply as much pressure as possible. And this
19:38
Speaker 1: is another thing that he would have borne witness to, Jackie.
19:42
Speaker 1: It wasn't just kind of looking into the eyes of
19:45
Speaker 1: the children as life left them. You're going to see
19:49
Speaker 1: physiological changes in the appearance of your children. Okay, So
19:55
Speaker 1: what happens here is that as you're beginning to squeeze
19:59
Speaker 1: the head, the head, because as I always say, the
20:03
Speaker 1: head is the most vascular area of the body, the
20:06
Speaker 1: blood is backing up in the head, and so the
20:09
Speaker 1: head turns, actually it turns this kind of lovacious to
20:13
Speaker 1: purple color. The eyes begin to protrude about sometimes the
20:18
Speaker 1: tongue will protrude. Many times people that are being choked
20:23
Speaker 1: will actually bite their tongue and the tongue protrudes out
20:26
Speaker 1: is clinched between the teeth, and it's all of this
20:29
Speaker 1: is just this response that your body is struggling for air.
20:34
Speaker 1: And so he would have literally borne witness to this
20:37
Speaker 1: as he hovered over each child. And this is flesh
20:40
Speaker 1: upon flesh. He is taking his hands, these hands that
20:44
Speaker 1: were supposed to have been there to protect these kids
20:46
Speaker 1: over the years. These hands that we're supposed to provide
20:49
Speaker 1: love and care, and he uses them to literally constrict
20:53
Speaker 1: the life out of each one of these kids. Other
20:56
Speaker 1: than that infamous hyoid bone that we have talked about
20:59
Speaker 1: at great length in other cases that can be easily
21:02
Speaker 1: broken with pressure on it. Given the size difference between
21:05
Speaker 1: this man's hands and the necks of these children, would
21:10
Speaker 1: we have seen other broken bones in their spine, in
21:13
Speaker 1: their net region. Yeah, not necessarily broken bones. And I
21:17
Speaker 1: want our listeners to understand this. It's not necessarily you know.
21:20
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of us have this idea
21:22
Speaker 1: that the snapping of necks, if you will, and that's
21:25
Speaker 1: kind of something that Hollywood does. What's really critical here
21:29
Speaker 1: is not so much the hyoid, but if you remember
21:32
Speaker 1: when I was talking talking about the layernx itself, the
21:38
Speaker 1: area where where our oxygen travels through. This is a
21:41
Speaker 1: what's referred to as a cartilaginous body. If folks at
21:44
Speaker 1: home will kind of touch your nose, you have a
21:46
Speaker 1: cartilaginous area to your nose. It's below the bony structure
21:50
Speaker 1: and it's it's comprised of cardilaginous bodies in there. And
21:55
Speaker 1: did you know with cartilage, cartilage fractures as well. Okay,
22:00
Speaker 1: and so just if you've ever had a friend that's
22:03
Speaker 1: had like an injured meniscus in their knee, that's something
22:05
Speaker 1: that's kind of common. That's a cartilaginous body. It's not
22:08
Speaker 1: actually ossified like a bony structure. So these will actually fracture.
22:13
Speaker 1: And when they do fracture, this essentially breaks down the
22:17
Speaker 1: windpipe to the point where it doesn't function any longer.
22:20
Speaker 1: So at autopsy, when we go into these structures, what
22:24
Speaker 1: we're looking for are little focal areas of hemorrhage. Because
22:27
Speaker 1: you have what covers the larynix right here. You have
22:30
Speaker 1: what are called strap muscles, and they are these kind
22:32
Speaker 1: of criss cross muscles that lie across this area and
22:36
Speaker 1: its pressure is applied to them, they develop little areas
22:39
Speaker 1: or focal areas of hemorrhage. Now this is different than PATIKII.
22:43
Speaker 1: We hear about PATIKII a lot, and I'll get to
22:44
Speaker 1: that in just a second, but you'll see hemorrhage in
22:47
Speaker 1: the strap muscles that overlie these structures in the neck. Now,
22:51
Speaker 1: going to PATIKII, what happens with them, Well, is this
22:56
Speaker 1: occurs when do you remember when I talked about the
22:58
Speaker 1: congestion in the head. There's no blood return here, so
23:03
Speaker 1: the blood is seeking areas where it can kind of
23:06
Speaker 1: seep out. For instance, because of the intense pressure in
23:10
Speaker 1: the eyes. It's most noticeable because the vessels in the
23:14
Speaker 1: eyes are very dainty, they're very fragile. And remember they're
23:17
Speaker 1: called vessels. They're not storage units, Okay, They're meant to
23:21
Speaker 1: move blood, not store blood. So more pressure is built
23:24
Speaker 1: up on the inner walls of these these little capillaier beds,
23:27
Speaker 1: and they explode and we get these little pin prick
23:30
Speaker 1: hemorrhages that are called particular hemorrhages. And so that's something
23:34
Speaker 1: else that we're going to look for, particularly in the eyes.
23:37
Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll see them along the gum line as well,
23:41
Speaker 1: and sometimes they will actually appear on the lungs, depending
23:44
Speaker 1: upon how much pressure is being exerted and how much
23:47
Speaker 1: the individual is struggling. We have two other children to
23:49
Speaker 1: talk about, two year old Gabriel and one year old Abigail.
23:54
Speaker 1: They were choked with a belt because Timothy Jones hands
24:00
Speaker 1: were too big for him to be able to do
24:02
Speaker 1: a manual strangulation. What would have been the difference in
24:06
Speaker 1: their deaths. This is an important delineation to make between
24:11
Speaker 1: a manual strangulation and what's referred to as a literature strangulation. Now,
24:16
Speaker 1: literature can be made out of any number of things.
24:19
Speaker 1: I've seen him made with wire. I've seen him made
24:22
Speaker 1: with baling rope, like you see with bales of hay
24:25
Speaker 1: tied up. Electrical cord is very common, and then you've
24:29
Speaker 1: got woven rope. But you know, one of the most
24:31
Speaker 1: common things that we see utilized as a weapon and
24:37
Speaker 1: also as a means for people to take their own
24:39
Speaker 1: lives are actually belts. You know why because most people
24:44
Speaker 1: possess a belt of some kind, and so it's something
24:48
Speaker 1: that has utility, it's something that's within reach. So yeah,
24:51
Speaker 1: his hands probably these are very tiny children. I mean,
24:54
Speaker 1: you know, if if I remember correctly, Abigail Elane, she
25:00
Speaker 1: was only one, and of course Gabriel was only two.
25:02
Speaker 1: Just think about how diminutive they are in comparison to
25:06
Speaker 1: a grown man. And so yeah, he probably couldn't get
25:10
Speaker 1: both of his hands or wrapped around their necks. So
25:13
Speaker 1: he's going to use what is at his disposal. He
25:16
Speaker 1: may have even taken this belt off of his own
25:19
Speaker 1: waist to facilitate this. Now, this is going to be
25:21
Speaker 1: a literature strangulation. So this is going to look when
25:24
Speaker 1: we do the examination from a forensic standpoint, it's going
25:27
Speaker 1: to look completely different than the presentation that you'll have.
25:30
Speaker 1: When someone is actually throttled or choked with bare hands
25:34
Speaker 1: or strangled with bare hands, you'll have widespread hemorrhage in
25:38
Speaker 1: the soft tissues underlying skin, in the muscles with the hands.
25:42
Speaker 1: But with ligature, it's very very specific. And let's say,
25:46
Speaker 1: let's just think about a belt. Let's think that maybe
25:48
Speaker 1: this is a two inch width belt. Well, you're going
25:51
Speaker 1: to have what are called margins, which will be those
25:55
Speaker 1: areas that define the outside of the belt. So just
25:58
Speaker 1: imagine a belt overlying a surf, so as it squeezed
26:02
Speaker 1: down on an area the outer boundaries, it almost looks
26:05
Speaker 1: like if you're looking at it from an aerial shot,
26:08
Speaker 1: it almost looks like a road. When you're looking down
26:10
Speaker 1: at it, you'll see the outer boundaries of that road
26:13
Speaker 1: or the belt overlying the neck, and you'll have hemorrhage
26:17
Speaker 1: there and sometimes it will be abraided, you know, like
26:19
Speaker 1: you have an abraided an a braided knee. You can
26:22
Speaker 1: an abrasion, Well, that'll happen on the neck with a
26:25
Speaker 1: ligature because the person's struggling, all right, you have this
26:27
Speaker 1: friction between the surface of the skin and actually just
26:31
Speaker 1: contacting area with the ligature that's being utilized, and so
26:35
Speaker 1: you'll have this kind of rubbed area there as well. Now,
26:38
Speaker 1: how does this work, Well, there's a couple of ways
26:40
Speaker 1: of a ligature can work. You can use two hands
26:43
Speaker 1: with it where you essentially put it around the neck
26:47
Speaker 1: kind of reverse order, if you will, and then tighten
26:52
Speaker 1: it really quick and strangle the person from the rear.
26:55
Speaker 1: Or with a belt, because it's got a buckle, the
26:58
Speaker 1: individual can wrap the belt around an individual's neck and
27:02
Speaker 1: then run the end of the belt through the buckle
27:04
Speaker 1: and essentially sent it down and it makes almost like
27:07
Speaker 1: a noose where you're standing above them. And you know,
27:10
Speaker 1: in a case like this where you've got these two
27:12
Speaker 1: very tiny, tiny little children, that is not beyond reason
27:19
Speaker 1: there that this is a way that this would have
27:21
Speaker 1: been done. You should just kind of centch the belt
27:24
Speaker 1: down on there. Now, are you're going to see the
27:25
Speaker 1: same things physiologically? Yeah, you'll see a lot of the
27:29
Speaker 1: same things that you see with a manual strangulation. There'll
27:32
Speaker 1: still be POTIKII, you'll have underlying hemorrhage and soft tissue,
27:36
Speaker 1: but it's going to be very uniformed. When you have
27:39
Speaker 1: bare hands, it'll be spread everywhere, but with a belt
27:42
Speaker 1: in this case, it'll be very uniform. It'll be defined.
27:45
Speaker 1: And even when you what we call reflect the skin
27:48
Speaker 1: of the neck, you'll be able to make out that
27:50
Speaker 1: outline many times on the surface of the muscles as well.
27:54
Speaker 1: And so you're also going to have associated PATIQII, where
27:59
Speaker 1: the little vessels, again just like with a manual strangulation,
28:01
Speaker 1: are going to burst in the eyes. And in addition
28:04
Speaker 1: to that, you're you're going to see potentially if he
28:08
Speaker 1: did in fact, since this this is kind of horrific
28:12
Speaker 1: to think about, not that this isn't already, but you
28:15
Speaker 1: will many times see a buckle mark on the back
28:17
Speaker 1: of the neck as well. So you kill your five
28:45
Speaker 1: children in one of the most intimate ways that you
28:50
Speaker 1: can possibly do in the house that you sheltered them in,
28:57
Speaker 1: what do you do with their bodies? In Jackie, the
29:00
Speaker 1: story just gets more bizarres. It goes along, it does
29:03
Speaker 1: Joe Timothy Jones Jr. At this point, after killing his
29:07
Speaker 1: five children, ages one through eight, wraps their bodies in plastic,
29:13
Speaker 1: places them in his car, and drives across the South
29:19
Speaker 1: for nine days before he dumps their bodies in the
29:24
Speaker 1: trunk of his vehicle. For nine days with five bodies. Yeah,
29:29
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm thinking, you know, what in the
29:32
Speaker 1: world are you doing? And Jackie, let me correct you
29:36
Speaker 1: about something you had mentioned that he wrapped them in plastic.
29:40
Speaker 1: He didn't wrap them in plastic. He put these little
29:42
Speaker 1: bodies in garbage bags. And I think that's emblematic of
29:47
Speaker 1: the way he kind of viewed them. He viewed them
29:50
Speaker 1: as nothing more than refuse, if you will. And he
29:54
Speaker 1: spent this protracted period of time running up and down
29:58
Speaker 1: the road in a mad fear. Are trying to figure
30:01
Speaker 1: out what in the world am I going to do
30:04
Speaker 1: with these bodies? How am I not going to draw
30:06
Speaker 1: attention to myself? And all the while, you can't stop nature,
30:10
Speaker 1: can you. All the whiles he's driving down the road
30:14
Speaker 1: in this escalade that he's driving, those bodies are riding
30:17
Speaker 1: with him, these precious little angels, what's left of them,
30:21
Speaker 1: sweating inside of these bags, because that's what happens to
30:24
Speaker 1: bodies like this when they're actually encased in plastic. It's
30:28
Speaker 1: speeding up the process of decomposition. So let's just think
30:32
Speaker 1: about that just for a second. All the while, every
30:34
Speaker 1: single day, every moment, every second that ticks off of
30:38
Speaker 1: that clock, these bodies are progressing further and further and
30:43
Speaker 1: further down the post mortem timeline, and that means that
30:46
Speaker 1: changes are going on at a molecular level. The bodies
30:51
Speaker 1: are essentially going through what's referred to as autolytic changes,
30:56
Speaker 1: and kind of let me explain to you what that is,
30:58
Speaker 1: auto meaning the body is kind of in a state
31:03
Speaker 1: of self digestion. It's what's happening. Remember, at a cellular level,
31:10
Speaker 1: cellular respiration has ceased, so the body begins to break down.
31:15
Speaker 1: It's literally beginning to consume itself after this period of time,
31:19
Speaker 1: and with that, all of these gases are created and
31:24
Speaker 1: you get this horrible odor that rises up out of
31:27
Speaker 1: each one of these children. It's not just one child.
31:29
Speaker 1: You've got five children that you're conveying, and each of
31:32
Speaker 1: them are unique in their own structure, and they're decomposing,
31:37
Speaker 1: probably at different rates, but still all the while decomposing
31:42
Speaker 1: as Dad is driving down the road with their remains
31:45
Speaker 1: in the back. And it's August in the South, Joe,
31:49
Speaker 1: the Deep South. You're right, And it's not just the South,
31:52
Speaker 1: it's the Deep South. I've lived here in my entire life, Jack,
31:55
Speaker 1: And let me tell you something I know about the
31:56
Speaker 1: Deep South. In August. It's hot. It's hot even if
32:00
Speaker 1: you've got the air on when you get out of
32:02
Speaker 1: the car. Every time you go to refuel, hot air
32:04
Speaker 1: seeps in. And that's going to promote this process. We
32:08
Speaker 1: talked about the autolytic change that's going on within the body.
32:12
Speaker 1: Then you've got this kind of puture faction that's going
32:14
Speaker 1: on that's an external force on the body, and this
32:17
Speaker 1: is sped up by heat. It's like it's like he's
32:21
Speaker 1: driving down the road in the car almost becomes like
32:24
Speaker 1: a convection of and where heat is kind of swirling
32:27
Speaker 1: and circulating around him and the remains of his children
32:30
Speaker 1: as he's going down the road. These children are now
32:35
Speaker 1: breaking down, not just at a molecular level, at a
32:38
Speaker 1: cellular level. Rather, they're breaking down now externally. The bodies
32:43
Speaker 1: are beginning to swell. You've got this foul odor that's
32:46
Speaker 1: rising up and it permeates everything. I've actually worked cases
32:51
Speaker 1: in the past, Jackie, where bodies were left in cars decomposed,
32:56
Speaker 1: and then people came and retrieve the bodies, remove them
32:59
Speaker 1: from the cars. And I'm talking about a year down
33:02
Speaker 1: range from when the perpetrator came back to the scene
33:04
Speaker 1: and removed the body, and you could still smell the
33:07
Speaker 1: decomposition in the fabric of the car. It's almost impossible
33:11
Speaker 1: to get that smell out. So everywhere he goes, everything
33:14
Speaker 1: he does, if he's stopping to get a candy bar,
33:17
Speaker 1: if he's stopping to get a soda pop, if he's
33:19
Speaker 1: stopping to get to top off his car with gas,
33:24
Speaker 1: everywhere he would go, his body would just be infused
33:28
Speaker 1: with this smell, with this aroma of his decomposing children.
33:32
Speaker 1: I cannot I can only imagine him going into into
33:36
Speaker 1: a convenience store and just walking in unbathed, unshowered, and
33:41
Speaker 1: walking past people and them smelling him and thinking, what
33:45
Speaker 1: in the world is going on with this guy? Because
33:47
Speaker 1: this is not something that you just normally associate with
33:52
Speaker 1: with everyday life. This is something and I think that
33:55
Speaker 1: it goes to something in our primal being It's almost
34:00
Speaker 1: like an indication of fear. I think, if you will,
34:03
Speaker 1: there's something about it that when people smell this smell,
34:07
Speaker 1: they know something horrible has happened at this point in time,
34:12
Speaker 1: and if people will alert now, somebody might not say
34:15
Speaker 1: anything to you about it, but people would have taken
34:17
Speaker 1: notice of him, and still to this day, if you
34:20
Speaker 1: could track down his car, that car would still have
34:23
Speaker 1: that odor of deafinity. The smell of decomposition Joe that
34:26
Speaker 1: you're talking about is one of the reasons that Timothy
34:30
Speaker 1: Jones got caught. He was stopped on a routine sobriety check,
34:34
Speaker 1: a roadblock, if you will, and an officer was paying
34:38
Speaker 1: attention to exactly what you just described. Yes, he was
34:43
Speaker 1: Jackie that officer. Can you imagine you're it's at night,
34:47
Speaker 1: You've got a flashlight, your standing out there, and you've
34:49
Speaker 1: got all of your colleagues. This is a sobriety checkpoint.
34:51
Speaker 1: They're checking to see, if you know, just randomly, if
34:53
Speaker 1: people are DUI that are going through there on this
34:57
Speaker 1: county road, and all of a sudden this escalates slowly
35:00
Speaker 1: pulls up and you can imagine the guy in the
35:02
Speaker 1: front seat is probably nervous. He's got the cops there,
35:05
Speaker 1: they got their flashlights, they're checking. They don't know. He
35:07
Speaker 1: doesn't know if they're looking for him or if this
35:09
Speaker 1: is just they're just randomly checking people. But when that
35:12
Speaker 1: window comes down in that August heat in Mississippi, because
35:17
Speaker 1: that's where this was, that smell would have rolled out
35:20
Speaker 1: of that window. And something I can tell you about cops,
35:23
Speaker 1: and I've heard this over and over and over again
35:26
Speaker 1: from all of my friends. They are in law enforcement,
35:28
Speaker 1: this sort of thing. And I know it anyway because
35:30
Speaker 1: I'm a death investigator. But they always say, they say,
35:33
Speaker 1: once you smell the smell of death, you never forget
35:37
Speaker 1: it as long as you live. And when that cop
35:40
Speaker 1: approached that window and he stuck his head in there
35:42
Speaker 1: to ask this fellow, mister Jones, how's it going this evening,
35:46
Speaker 1: that smell rolled out and it hit that cop right
35:48
Speaker 1: in the nose, and he knew instantaneously that something was afoot,
35:52
Speaker 1: something horrible. And it's at that point in time they
35:55
Speaker 1: pulled Jones out of the vehicle and they were asking him,
35:59
Speaker 1: who are you and why does your vehicle smell like this?
36:02
Speaker 1: Where were the children, Joe? You know, where he was
36:05
Speaker 1: found was just into Mississippi out of Alabama. Jackie. There's
36:09
Speaker 1: any number of roads that you know that connect these
36:11
Speaker 1: two states are adjoining. You can go down to I
36:13
Speaker 1: twenty corridor and you go from Alabama directly into Mississippi.
36:19
Speaker 1: But Jones turns out he had gone down what has
36:23
Speaker 1: been previously described as a logging road. And if you
36:27
Speaker 1: don't know what a logging road is, it's it's very
36:32
Speaker 1: very rough. It's it's generally more or less like a
36:35
Speaker 1: path where big trucks go in and they pull out
36:37
Speaker 1: pine trees that are being harvested for pulpwood. And he
36:40
Speaker 1: had found one of these roads, and he decided while
36:44
Speaker 1: he was still in Alabama that he was going to
36:46
Speaker 1: go down one of these logging roads. There's a lot
36:48
Speaker 1: of brush on either side, and he deposited these these
36:53
Speaker 1: poor little precious children, their their bodies. And you know,
36:56
Speaker 1: I've seen the crime scene images of these, Jackie. He
37:00
Speaker 1: didn't just simply take the bags and bury them. He
37:05
Speaker 1: didn't lay them out in some respectable way. He took
37:09
Speaker 1: these kids and he just created a pile. Remember what
37:12
Speaker 1: I said earlier, These children were in garbage bags, and
37:16
Speaker 1: that's what it looked like it looked like piles of
37:18
Speaker 1: garbage that someone had just deposited in a rural area
37:22
Speaker 1: and then driven off. And what's very sad is that
37:26
Speaker 1: with Mirror, the oldest child, I hate to even say this,
37:31
Speaker 1: wild animals had gotten into her bag and had begun
37:36
Speaker 1: to feast on her, feast on her remains. And that's
37:39
Speaker 1: the horror of this because his shouldren not only did
37:41
Speaker 1: he not protect them in life, not only did he
37:45
Speaker 1: destroy them in life and take their lives away from them,
37:47
Speaker 1: he failed miserably protecting them in death because they are
37:51
Speaker 1: subject to all of the elements surrounding them everything, and
37:55
Speaker 1: when a decomposing body is in the wild like this,
37:58
Speaker 1: just one, now we got five, you're this is sending
38:02
Speaker 1: off signals to every bit of the wildlife around there,
38:05
Speaker 1: everything from foxes to raccoons, to possum anything or wild dogs,
38:11
Speaker 1: anything that is going to feast on flesh is going
38:14
Speaker 1: to be out there. And that's what happened to these
38:17
Speaker 1: children's bodies. To this day, To this day, Jackie, there
38:22
Speaker 1: are still police officers and prosecutors that are having a
38:26
Speaker 1: very very difficult time getting these cases out of their minds.
38:30
Speaker 1: I can certainly understand why that would be Joe, while
38:33
Speaker 1: the only true justice would be for these children to
38:36
Speaker 1: still be alive. Jones was arrested and tried, found guilty,
38:40
Speaker 1: and has been sentenced to death in South Carolina, Jackie,
38:44
Speaker 1: what sets this case apart from every other case that
38:47
Speaker 1: I've covered is the fact that these homicides, let me
38:52
Speaker 1: rephrase that, these murders, because this is what this is.
38:56
Speaker 1: These are murders, brutal murders. These took place in South Carolina.
39:00
Speaker 1: I've never seen a case where you had such what's
39:02
Speaker 1: called the interagency cooperation. Did you know that when those
39:07
Speaker 1: with the state police in Alabama found and located these bodies,
39:11
Speaker 1: they had the courtesy to contact the authorities in South
39:15
Speaker 1: Carolina and request their crime scene unit. All the way
39:18
Speaker 1: in South Carolina, this is a good five or six
39:21
Speaker 1: hundred miles away, they blocked traffic on I twenty and
39:25
Speaker 1: they held it. They held that crime scene until CSI
39:30
Speaker 1: from South Carolina could drive all the way from there
39:33
Speaker 1: to the far western part in this rural, isolated area
39:37
Speaker 1: of Alabama in order to process this scene. And when
39:40
Speaker 1: the police arrived there, the sun was going down, it
39:43
Speaker 1: was getting dark, and they couldn't process the scene immediately.
39:46
Speaker 1: They had to wait till the next morning. But during
39:48
Speaker 1: that time they began to make plans, and all of
39:51
Speaker 1: these agencies got together and worked and wound up getting
39:54
Speaker 1: a conviction in this case. And mister Jones right now,
39:58
Speaker 1: he sits on Death Road in South Carolina. I'm Joseph
40:04
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bagsh