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Dying in Darkness · Political Junkie Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Ms.
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SPEAKER_00: Marr,
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your public statements and social media posts reflect left-wing
0:05
ideology and
0:06
SPEAKER_00: blatant opposition to free speech.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: After all,
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SPEAKER_00: you were the head of Wikipedia for many years,
0:12
SPEAKER_00: which is a platform that doesn't tell the truth.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Let's walk through some of the public,
0:19
SPEAKER_00: some of your statements,
0:20
SPEAKER_00: so the public can understand your personal views.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: You said your fellow Americans...
0:27
Your fellow Americans just elected Donald Trump as president
0:31
again this past November.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: You called him a deranged racist and sociopath.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: You posted on X that America is addicted to white supremacy.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: It's appalling.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: You've publicly chastised using the phrase boy and girl,
0:51
SPEAKER_00: which you said erases the language for non-binary people.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: There's only two genders, by the way.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Ms.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Maher,
0:59
the federal funding that your outlet receives comes from all
1:03
American taxpayer
1:05
SPEAKER_00: dollars,
1:06
SPEAKER_00: not just from your viewers who support such statements as these.
1:11
Let me inform you so that your federal funding is also paid for
1:17
by the other half
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SPEAKER_00: of the country.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: And we started this show with Marjorie Taylor Greene,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: who was haranguing Catherine Marr,
1:49
SPEAKER_01: the former head of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: And this is the Dying in Darkness edition.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Today, we're going to be talking about conservative media.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Claire Potter.
2:02
SPEAKER_03: And I'm Neil Young.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: So on Monday,
2:05
we learned that a New York Times team has been doing a forensic
2:08
examination of the
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Epstein files,
2:11
teasing out a long relationship between the JP Morgan Bank and
2:16
possible sex
2:17
SPEAKER_01: trafficking on the part of Jeffrey Epstein.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Jamie Dimon,
2:20
SPEAKER_01: who is always in and out of Congress and in the news and has all kinds of
2:25
SPEAKER_01: aspirations to glory,
2:27
SPEAKER_01: claims to have known nothing about one of his most lucrative clients.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: However,
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SPEAKER_01: his closest assistant was the conduit between Epstein and the bank,
2:36
SPEAKER_01: and other employees flagged large cash withdrawals,
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SPEAKER_01: a trigger for sex trafficking or other organized crime activity,
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SPEAKER_01: warnings that were never followed up.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Neil, is Jeffrey Epstein ever going to get out of the news?
2:50
SPEAKER_03: I don't think so.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, there's also, you know, Trump's in the UK this week.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: There's all those public art displays that are being made,
2:57
SPEAKER_03: like the largest photo ever put on a public space.
3:02
It feels like Jeffrey Epstein is never going to be out of the
3:04
news and also that we
3:05
may never have any sort of concrete evidence or I suppose real
3:11
legal action taken
3:12
SPEAKER_03: here in terms of
3:15
SPEAKER_03: Some of the names that we imagine are implicated in this story, right?
3:20
SPEAKER_01: I think that's absolutely right.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: You know,
3:22
part of what I think is a red flag about this story is that
3:26
there were mid-level,
3:27
SPEAKER_01: maybe even upper-level employees who were saying,
3:31
SPEAKER_01: hey,
3:31
SPEAKER_01: what's going on with these large cash withdrawals?
3:34
And of course,
3:35
now during the Trump administration,
3:37
we're seeing all kinds of very odd activity.
3:40
Tiffany Trump was in the news this morning because her husband
3:43
apparently has been
3:44
SPEAKER_01: dealing in yachts and not very honestly at that.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: But also,
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SPEAKER_01: of course,
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the Trump administration has been pushing Bitcoin and all kinds
3:53
of other meme coin
3:55
SPEAKER_01: activity,
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SPEAKER_01: which allows people to pay for things without any accountability at all.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: So it is worrisome,
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
4:03
that one of the most prominent banks in the United States
4:07
actually had systems to
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SPEAKER_01: catch this stuff and it was ignored.
4:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it doesn't inspire confidence.
4:14
SPEAKER_03: And it also,
4:15
SPEAKER_03: I think you're right to point us to the cryptocurrency conversation,
4:19
SPEAKER_03: which we know the Trump family has benefited from enormously financially,
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but also what are the other benefits of this particular
4:26
currency in terms of what
4:29
you can hide and also like just how unregulated that space is
4:34
and what that allows
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SPEAKER_03: for.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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And of course,
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Woodward and Bernstein coined the famous phrase,
4:39
follow the money.
4:40
SPEAKER_03: Right.
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It seems to me that anybody following the money for Jeffrey
4:44
Epstein in the
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pre-crypto era may exactly find the connections that everybody
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claims they're
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SPEAKER_01: looking for.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's move on to Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson,
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SPEAKER_01: who has lost yet another seat from his historically itty-bitty,
5:00
SPEAKER_01: teeny-weeny majority.
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SPEAKER_01: A special election in Virginia's 11th,
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SPEAKER_01: which is a deep blue district,
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SPEAKER_01: no surprises here,
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did their duty and elected Democrat James Walkinshaw to replace
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Gerald Connolly,
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SPEAKER_01: who died earlier this year.
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SPEAKER_01: What are the things that are important about this story, Neal?
5:18
SPEAKER_03: Well,
5:19
SPEAKER_03: I think that,
5:19
SPEAKER_03: first of all,
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it seems to be there's a pretty clear pattern in these special
5:26
elections that
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SPEAKER_03: Democrats are faring really well.
5:29
SPEAKER_03: And I think we've talked about
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SPEAKER_03: a number of them over the last couple of months,
5:34
which seems good news for 2026 and the way in which midterm
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elections can push back
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SPEAKER_03: on the Trump administration,
5:44
SPEAKER_03: maybe alter Congress.
5:46
SPEAKER_03: But it's also worth talking about any of these special elections and the
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SPEAKER_03: bigger context of what the Republican Party is also doing,
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SPEAKER_03: which is like these gerrymandering efforts in Texas and elsewhere.
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SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot at play here.
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SPEAKER_03: I'm sure Johnson isn't happy about, you know, a result like this.
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SPEAKER_03: And also there's a lot of efforts from Johnson,
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the Republican Party towards creating a political scenario to
6:12
guard against results
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SPEAKER_03: like this through,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: gerrymandering congressional districts.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's right.
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I think it's good that the Democrats are locking down seats
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where they can.
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I think it's also important to point out that Virginia is
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traditionally thought of
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SPEAKER_01: as kind of a bellwether,
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SPEAKER_01: and we have a governor's election coming up in Virginia.
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SPEAKER_01: Certainly the year after Joe Biden was elected,
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SPEAKER_01: the election of Glenn Youngkin was not a good sign for Democrats.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: And everybody talked about that.
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SPEAKER_01: But can we imagine that Virginia is still the bellwether that it is,
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SPEAKER_01: given what you're talking about,
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SPEAKER_01: given the gerrymandering,
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SPEAKER_01: given what's happening in the media today?
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SPEAKER_03: I don't know that it is.
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I do think it's right to continue to talk about Virginia as a
7:00
purple state in a way
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SPEAKER_03: that some purple states aren't that...
7:06
SPEAKER_03: Florida used to be a purple state.
7:07
SPEAKER_03: Ohio used to be a purple state.
7:08
SPEAKER_03: It seems like Virginia is still one in which things could go either way.
7:13
SPEAKER_03: But whether or not that represents it being a bellwether state,
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SPEAKER_03: I don't know that those two things are one and the same.
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SPEAKER_03: I don't know that a purple state and what it does...
7:22
SPEAKER_03: necessarily means it's also a bellwether of larger national trends.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course,
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SPEAKER_01: these districts that are around Washington,
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SPEAKER_01: D.C.,
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I'm not sure anybody really knows how to forecast for them
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right now because it is
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SPEAKER_01: the home to so many people who have been fired and may,
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SPEAKER_01: in fact,
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SPEAKER_01: have left,
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SPEAKER_01: may never vote in Virginia again.
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SPEAKER_01: On the other hand,
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it is also communities that have been torn apart by Trump
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firing people in the
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SPEAKER_01: federal government.
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SPEAKER_01: It may activate voters.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: So really, we don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: We're going to have to keep watching Virginia very closely this year,
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SPEAKER_01: Neil,
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SPEAKER_01: which is one of the things we do best.
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SPEAKER_01: So in the Department of Good Things Happen to Bad People,
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SPEAKER_01: on Wednesday,
8:03
a Manhattan judge threw out federal terrorism charges filed in
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the Luigi Mangione
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SPEAKER_01: case.
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a decision that not only has ramifications for Charlie Kirk
8:12
assassin Tyler
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SPEAKER_01: Robinson,
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but for Donald Trump's announced determination to use terrorism
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designations
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against a range of foundations that have historically funded
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liberal causes.
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SPEAKER_01: Neil, what else do we need to be thinking about here?
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SPEAKER_03: Well,
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I think that last point that you made is really what's
8:29
important here is that we
8:30
have a concerted effort from the Trump administration to sort
8:34
of push this as a
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SPEAKER_03: legal strategy or as a legal category for these cases that,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: I think the judge in this case,
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SPEAKER_03: which,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: doesn't mean it's not a murder case,
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SPEAKER_03: doesn't mean it's not a horrific event that happened,
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but it didn't meet the statute definition of what terrorism is
8:52
under New York law.
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But the Trump administration obviously is going to continue to
8:57
push that because
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SPEAKER_03: the Charlie Kirk events have just,
9:00
SPEAKER_03: I think,
9:01
SPEAKER_03: encouraged that sort of framing.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: It's certainly happening in political discourse on the right.
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SPEAKER_03: And so I think it'll be mirrored in legal strategies as well.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: And of course, Trump is eager to start executing people.
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SPEAKER_01: That seems to be one of his goals for his second administration.
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SPEAKER_01: Apparently,
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SPEAKER_01: there are something like 600 lives at stake,
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SPEAKER_01: people who have been convicted under federal laws and are appealing to.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: death penalty sentences.
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So this strikes me as a moment in which a federal judge is
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stepping in to say,
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SPEAKER_01: hold on here,
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SPEAKER_01: we're not going down this route.
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SPEAKER_01: I do think what you're saying,
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SPEAKER_01: Neil,
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SPEAKER_01: about the broadening of the category of terrorism is extremely important.
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SPEAKER_01: Because you and I take terrorism very seriously.
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SPEAKER_01: We have differently, I think, been affected by terrorism.
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SPEAKER_01: 9-11,
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SPEAKER_01: somebody set off a bomb in my neighborhood in Chelsea a few years ago,
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and it was possibly one of the most terrifying things that has
9:59
ever happened,
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SPEAKER_01: to me at least.
10:01
But the idea that anything that is counter to the MAGA agenda
10:07
represents a form of
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SPEAKER_01: terrorism seems to be what the White House is playing with here,
10:11
SPEAKER_01: right?
10:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:12
yeah i mean just to add my personal connection to i mean i
10:16
worked across the street
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from the world trade center when 9 11 happened as a you know my
10:20
first job out of
10:21
college having just moved to new york so yes this this feels
10:25
very close to home for
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so many of us who've lived through and seen with our own eyes
10:30
you know terrorist
10:31
SPEAKER_03: events and also um i think
10:36
Any American should be concerned about the way in which the
10:40
Trump administration is
10:42
SPEAKER_03: handling and broadening this category of terrorism.
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SPEAKER_03: And also we should remember what else they have done,
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SPEAKER_03: which is to exonerate anyone involved in January 6th activities.
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SPEAKER_01: Actual terrorism.
10:56
SPEAKER_03: Actual terrorism.
10:57
SPEAKER_03: So as we talk about them sort of expanding this category of
11:02
expanding it in particular ways,
11:04
expanding it through a sort of political strategy
11:08
that they're pursuing through the courts at the same time in
11:11
which they have,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: Trump has pardoned actual terrorists.
11:15
SPEAKER_03: And so I think like all of this is of a piece,
11:18
but it's very worth remembering that January 6th history as we
11:24
go forward.
11:24
SPEAKER_03: And as this administration,
11:26
I think we'll try and use that terrorist language over and over
11:29
again to broaden
11:30
and extend its powers and to suppress civil liberties and all
11:34
sorts of other
11:34
SPEAKER_03: things.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And to go back to money just for a second, of course, there are U.S.
11:40
laws that prohibit the use of the American financial system to
11:43
support terrorism.
11:44
We're not allowed to donate money to organizations that support
11:47
terrorism and so on.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: There is a part of me that thinks,
11:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:50
SPEAKER_01: the administration figured out how to loot universities.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: They figured out how to loot media companies.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: And now they're trying to loot the foundations.
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SPEAKER_01: Which is really big money.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
12:00
places like Mellon and Soros and Ford and so on and groups that
12:05
have historically
12:06
SPEAKER_01: promoted humanitarian and liberal causes.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: There are billions and billions and billions of dollars there.
12:12
And if the Department of Justice goes after them for quote
12:15
unquote supporting terrorism.
12:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: That will be expensive and difficult litigation.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: On a lighter note, news surfaced last week.
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SPEAKER_01: And I just want to say listeners,
12:28
Neil and I were going to do this episode last week and then
12:31
Charlie Kirk happened.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: So we kicked everything forward.
12:33
That's why some of the news is a little older,
12:35
but I like this piece of news.
12:38
News surfaced last week that there's been a happy ending for
12:41
the recently widowed
12:42
SPEAKER_01: 81-year-old right-wing pundit Oliver North,
12:45
SPEAKER_01: a former Marine and national security aide in the Reagan administration.
12:49
North's testimony about the illegal Iran-Contra arms for
12:52
hostages or cocaine for
12:54
SPEAKER_01: arms for hostages,
12:55
SPEAKER_01: however you want to have it.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: Deal electrified the nation in 1987.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: His bride is,
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SPEAKER_01: wait for it,
13:03
SPEAKER_01: former secretary and part-time model Fawn Hall,
13:06
SPEAKER_01: who admitted to destroying evidence in the case.
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SPEAKER_01: She is now 65, and I guess they're happy together, right, Neal?
13:16
SPEAKER_03: I mean, is this a beautiful ending?
13:18
SPEAKER_03: Is this the good news we needed in these awful times?
13:21
SPEAKER_03: Also,
13:22
does this sort of cause us to revisit those events and say that
13:28
there was something
13:29
SPEAKER_03: going,
13:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
13:29
SPEAKER_03: right?
13:30
Like this seems like there was clearly something going on there
13:33
that they've now
13:34
SPEAKER_03: found each other again.
13:35
SPEAKER_03: Best of luck to them.
13:36
SPEAKER_03: God bless.
13:37
SPEAKER_03: And I hope they have a great honeymoon.
13:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, I,
13:40
I think I'd forgotten that there was such an age difference
13:43
between the two of them.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, it does make sense.
13:46
SPEAKER_03: But 81 years old and getting married to the love of your life,
13:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
13:51
SPEAKER_03: I guess we should wish that for everyone.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of cute.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Well,
13:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:56
remember at the time there was something in the middle of all
13:59
those hearings about
14:01
SPEAKER_01: a receipt from a lingerie store?
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yep.
14:05
unclear who the lingerie was for and he said it was really for
14:09
his wife but we
14:11
didn't really believe that and of course fawn hall was like
14:14
sneaking documents out
14:15
in her cooch and you know i mean it was just it was it was
14:19
really quite a scene at
14:20
the time but but you're right we should be happy for them i
14:22
don't know whether
14:24
oliver north's children are happy for him because apparently
14:27
they read the news in
14:28
SPEAKER_01: the newspaper wow
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not good.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's get to our focus, Neil.
14:34
How Republicans are trying to reshape media to promote a
14:37
right-wing agenda and silence liberals.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: I think we should start with the most recent news,
14:45
SPEAKER_01: which is that the Walt Disney Company,
14:47
SPEAKER_01: under FCC pressure,
14:49
is suspending comedian Jimmy Kimmel's late-night show on ABC
14:54
for these words in his
14:55
SPEAKER_01: opening monologue.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: And I want to say the words because it makes a difference.
15:00
We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang
15:04
desperately trying to
15:05
characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything
15:10
other than one of them
15:11
SPEAKER_01: and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Neil, is what Jimmy Kimmel said false?
15:20
I don't know if we know all the information yet to truly say if
15:24
this is true or
15:25
SPEAKER_03: false,
15:26
SPEAKER_03: but- Mm-hmm.
15:27
SPEAKER_03: It's not a lie, right?
15:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
15:30
SPEAKER_03: I also don't know if this is the test that we need to apply to it,
15:35
SPEAKER_03: given what's going on.
15:36
SPEAKER_03: I understand the sort of,
15:39
SPEAKER_03: you know,
15:39
SPEAKER_03: if we fact check this and it's true,
15:41
SPEAKER_03: then it really shouldn't have happened.
15:43
But whether or not it's true,
15:44
I don't think changes how awful what's happening is.
15:50
That this is a absolute infringement on free expression that is
15:55
chilling because of
15:57
how visible this person is and also what we know the pressure
16:01
that the president is
16:02
SPEAKER_03: exerting on media companies to do stuff like this.
16:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I imagine that this is a big story nationally.
16:08
SPEAKER_03: It's the only thing that people are talking about here in LA.
16:11
Like you can literally walk down the street and hear other
16:14
people talking about it
16:14
SPEAKER_03: because it is of such profound consequence for a city like this.
16:18
But it's deeply consequential for all of us because of what it
16:22
represents and the
16:23
real authoritarian grab that continues to happen here from the
16:27
Trump administration
16:28
SPEAKER_03: and the collusion of major,
16:31
SPEAKER_03: the cooperation of major media organizations with what Trump wants here.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
16:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
16:38
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if,
16:39
SPEAKER_01: well,
16:40
SPEAKER_01: I wonder two things and they don't lead to the same conclusion.
16:43
One thing I'm thinking about is whether media companies are
16:46
sort of saying to each
16:47
SPEAKER_01: other when the doors are closed,
16:49
SPEAKER_01: can we just get back to work?
16:51
We can't get in another tangle with the Trump administration
16:55
and actually do our job.
16:56
So they're kind of desperately maneuvering to try and get their
17:01
jobs done.
17:03
Another piece of me thinks that there are people in these media
17:06
companies who for
17:07
SPEAKER_01: some time have wanted to shut down more liberal speech.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: And now they're getting the opportunity.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: And then there's another piece of me that thinks,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: late night shows don't actually make that much money.
17:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:20
And they're kind of an albatross for these media companies
17:25
because they have very
17:27
SPEAKER_01: low viewership.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: They don't get that much advertising,
17:31
but they are extremely popular because of the capacity to
17:35
spread the performances
17:36
SPEAKER_01: across social media platforms.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: So there are a great many more people.
17:41
that listen to Jimmy Kimmel on YouTube or Instagram or
17:45
whatever,
17:46
then actually watch the show.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: So I sometimes wonder if media companies are saying,
17:52
I don't want to go to war for a property that actually isn't
17:56
that valuable.
17:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:58
And also they tend to be hosted by folks who have really big
18:03
money contracts.
18:04
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if
18:06
SPEAKER_03: You know,
18:06
SPEAKER_03: there are some cost savings here of like getting rid of Stephen Colbert,
18:10
SPEAKER_03: getting rid of Kimmel and the sort of multi-year,
18:13
SPEAKER_03: multi-million dollar contracts they have,
18:14
SPEAKER_03: especially if those shows aren't as revenue producing as like,
18:19
SPEAKER_03: say,
18:19
SPEAKER_03: the morning programming is.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I mean, none of this is good.
18:24
And I think,
18:25
you know,
18:25
a comedian who's fired over a joke is incredibly troubling on
18:32
its own.
18:34
SPEAKER_03: But again,
18:35
let's remember the bigger context of who these people are and
18:38
what their politics
18:39
SPEAKER_03: are.
18:40
All the years that we had to hear of comedians being canceled
18:44
by the woke left,
18:45
SPEAKER_03: there was a whole political movement built around that,
18:49
SPEAKER_03: that in so many ways Trump energized and benefited from.
18:55
SPEAKER_03: You know,
18:55
the politics are the discourse of free expression and free
18:58
speech that we're
19:00
hearing that I think has been like very animating on the right
19:03
and very animating
19:04
SPEAKER_03: for Trump and for his movement.
19:07
SPEAKER_03: And that has been supercharged in this Charlie Kirk moment.
19:10
And literally,
19:11
they're calling for people to be fired for saying anything
19:14
about Charlie Kirk.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:17
Even as they talk about him as being killed because of his
19:21
advocacy for free speech.
19:22
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
19:23
like we have to bring all these things together in these
19:26
conversations and speak to
19:28
them because there's a concerted effort to sort of not connect
19:32
those dots because
19:33
SPEAKER_03: for,
19:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:34
this political gains that not connecting those dots provides to
19:37
Trump and his ilk.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Well,
19:39
and I think it leads us to something that we need to keep
19:44
thinking about during
19:45
SPEAKER_01: this conversation,
19:46
which is the extreme rights capacity to confuse us by
19:52
contradicting itself.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: So when you were talking about how outraged they were about
19:59
SPEAKER_01: right-wing comedians getting canceled.
20:00
There's also this other thing that's been going on in social
20:03
media for years,
20:04
which is somebody would put up a racist meme or a transphobic
20:09
joke or something.
20:10
And then when you came back at them and said,
20:12
this is bigoted,
20:13
they said,
20:13
it's just a joke.
20:14
SPEAKER_03: It's just a joke.
20:15
SPEAKER_03: Just kidding.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
20:17
Everything was just a joke,
20:19
but it seems that nothing that a liberal or a left-
20:24
SPEAKER_01: wing person can say is a joke.
20:26
And I would also say Kimmel's observation that the MAGA media
20:32
sphere was in fact
20:34
trying to concoct a false view of this young person as being
20:39
part of a left wing
20:41
SPEAKER_01: conspiracy.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Could not possibly be one of us,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: could not possibly be on the right,
20:47
SPEAKER_01: blah,
20:47
SPEAKER_01: blah,
20:47
SPEAKER_01: blah,
20:47
SPEAKER_01: when in fact we knew nothing.
20:50
And so they jumped into a big space in which there was no
20:54
information and began to
20:56
SPEAKER_01: invent information.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think Kimmel was right on target.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: And where some of these late night guys have historically,
21:05
SPEAKER_01: really back since 2012,
21:10
SPEAKER_01: 2014,
21:10
they've been making a real contribution by telling truth in the
21:15
form of standup
21:16
SPEAKER_01: comedy and improv.
21:18
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
21:18
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
21:19
SPEAKER_03: I think,
21:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
21:20
a lot of Americans have gone to Colbert and to Kimmel as in
21:24
part as sort of their
21:26
SPEAKER_03: source of news.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: And,
21:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
21:28
SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of us have worried about what that meant,
21:31
SPEAKER_03: you know,
21:32
for traditional media and just the industry of journalism and
21:36
all the rest,
21:37
and also have sort of appreciated the way in which folks like
21:41
Kimmel and Colbert
21:42
SPEAKER_03: and forgetting John,
21:44
SPEAKER_03: the Daily Show guy.
21:45
SPEAKER_03: John Stewart.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: John Stewart.
21:47
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: that like they also took their opportunities seriously.
21:52
They knew they had big audiences and that there was a way in
21:54
which through humor,
21:56
SPEAKER_03: they could engage serious content and make important commentary.
22:02
But I just sort of want to circle back to the point you raised
22:05
that's really
22:06
important here about the sort of just joking defense that
22:09
really rose through the
22:10
SPEAKER_03: first Trump administration and that we see emerging again here.
22:15
SPEAKER_03: And like the gross disparity
22:17
between a president and a presidential administration sort of
22:22
defending and even
22:24
downplaying so much of what the president of the United States
22:27
says as just joking,
22:30
and then holding a comedian to standards that don't allow for
22:35
the very thing they
22:36
SPEAKER_03: do,
22:36
SPEAKER_03: which is humor and joke telling.
22:38
And that is an insane disparity and just a crazy apples and
22:43
oranges scenario.
22:45
SPEAKER_03: But,
22:45
SPEAKER_03: you know,
22:46
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
22:46
SPEAKER_03: I actually wrote a column during the first administration,
22:49
SPEAKER_03: first Trump administration about.
22:52
How much that White House put out a just joking defense about
22:56
the president,
22:56
SPEAKER_03: what it meant to have the leader of the free world,
23:00
SPEAKER_03: his words downplayed and characterized as just joking so much.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: And then we have, you know, a comedian losing their job for a joke.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
23:09
Well,
23:09
and I actually want to be clear,
23:11
I want to attribute this to you,
23:12
Neil,
23:12
but.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: President Trump lies all the time.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Charlie Kirk lied all the time.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I don't want to make too fine a point on it.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: The man is dead.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: We are sorry about it.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: We abhor violence.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: But it is also true that Charlie Kirk lied.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: all the time about black people, about women, about LGBT people.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: He lied about the political system.
23:38
He invented conspiracies that utterly avoided the facts of
23:44
political life.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: And so Jimmy Kimmel's, I'm not even offended by what Jimmy Kimmel said.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: It just seems right to me.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: But I think,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: what you're saying about why people went to late night,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: they go to late night for the kind of sharp,
23:59
elbowed political critique that rarely occurs in the mainstream
24:04
media,
24:05
right?
24:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: I think that's really true.
24:09
And you wonder what the future of that format is and what it
24:15
means for ABC's
24:16
SPEAKER_03: strategy going forward.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we shall see.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: It could be that decisions made there.
24:21
SPEAKER_03: I mean, is he never coming back?
24:23
SPEAKER_03: We don't know that yet, right?
24:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we don't really know what this- They have not said.
24:26
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
24:26
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: My guess is they are in heavy talks with his agent right now.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: I would imagine so.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Kimmel has a contract.
24:34
I mean,
24:34
it's important to remember that Stephen Colbert's contract was
24:37
not renewed.
24:38
SPEAKER_03: Right.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Kimmel is in the middle of a contract.
24:41
And so if he is canceled,
24:44
ABC is in breach of contract and they have to do something
24:46
about that.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: And
24:47
my guess,
24:48
there's something written into that contract that is very,
24:52
very,
24:52
very expensive.
24:54
But there's something more important here that is framing this
24:57
conservative war on
24:58
SPEAKER_01: the media,
24:59
SPEAKER_01: which is the First Amendment.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: It's not just affecting media people.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: CBS News recently reported a wave of firing across industries,
25:08
SPEAKER_01: punishing people for First Amendment protected wrong speak,
25:12
SPEAKER_01: about Charlie Kirk.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Republicans have urged people to turn in their colleagues,
25:18
SPEAKER_01: to report their teachers,
25:20
to get as many people fired as possible who say something about
25:26
Charlie Kirk that
25:27
SPEAKER_01: is not utterly laudatory.
25:29
So it's a media problem,
25:30
but we've also got a legal and a social problem here,
25:33
right?
25:33
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
25:34
SPEAKER_03: And I have to say,
25:36
even as someone who follows a lot of the folks here that are
25:40
engaged in this right
25:41
SPEAKER_03: now,
25:42
SPEAKER_03: who thinks about a lot of the history behind what's happening here,
25:47
SPEAKER_03: I have to say,
25:48
SPEAKER_03: I don't know about you,
25:48
SPEAKER_03: Claire,
25:48
but I'm actually surprised by how widespread and how vengeful
25:54
what we're seeing is.
25:56
SPEAKER_03: DeSantis in Florida has called for
26:01
public school teachers to be found and fired for any
26:05
expressions about Charlie Kirk.
26:07
And that's obviously being replicated in other places and
26:11
across all sorts of different sectors.
26:13
But the sort of mass campaign of finding and firing folks and
26:20
the real coordination
26:22
SPEAKER_03: that's happening here
26:23
SPEAKER_03: It was on a level that I actually find shocking,
26:26
SPEAKER_03: even as I spend a lot of time thinking about conservative media,
26:31
SPEAKER_03: conservative politics,
26:32
SPEAKER_03: and all the rest.
26:34
SPEAKER_03: I think it's really stunning how big this is.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: And,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: some of my friends on the right are acting,
26:42
SPEAKER_01: at least on X,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: like they are losing their minds.
26:45
And the only reason I can forgive them or excuse them for this
26:48
at all is I'm
26:49
actually quite sure that there are media strategies that are
26:53
coming out of the
26:53
White House that are being distributed to social media and
26:56
other media operatives
26:57
SPEAKER_01: that say,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: this is the story because it all looks the same.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: They're all saying the same things.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: They're all pointing us in the same direction.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: But I think what we need to think about,
27:09
SPEAKER_01: and this really weaves in other episodes we've done,
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Neil,
27:14
is that the Trump administration is trying to reshape the
27:19
society and the culture,
27:21
SPEAKER_01: and that going after media in this way is part of that project.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that Trump has done is sue newspapers,
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Last week, he sued the New York Times for, what was it?
27:37
SPEAKER_01: $15 billion.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: He is suing not just the Times,
27:42
but four reporters and Penguin Random House of having tried to
27:46
influence the 2024
27:48
election by spreading false and defamatory content about him
27:52
and for endorsing
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Kamala Harris.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Actually,
27:55
that's part of the lawsuit that the New York Times never should
27:57
have endorsed
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Kamala Harris.
27:59
which sort of casts a new light on why some other newspapers
28:02
backed off their endorsements.
28:04
Like,
28:04
did they get a phone call that said,
28:06
we're going to sue you if you do this?
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
28:08
SPEAKER_01: In July,
28:08
we know that Trump also filed suit against the Wall Street
28:11
Journal over its
28:12
SPEAKER_01: reporting on the Epstein birthday book.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: Now, this is reporting.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: This is fact-based reporting, and he's suing people for doing it.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: What do you think is going to follow, Neil?
28:24
SPEAKER_01: These suits can't possibly succeed.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're not going to succeed in a court of law, right?
28:30
But that's not the only way in which this strategy,
28:33
you know,
28:34
operates and has success.
28:36
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it is also a tool of intimidation.
28:39
SPEAKER_03: And we know that this fits within Trump's very,
28:42
SPEAKER_03: very long history,
28:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:44
SPEAKER_03: well,
28:44
SPEAKER_03: well before he was a
28:46
SPEAKER_03: before he was the president,
28:47
SPEAKER_03: long through his career as a businessman,
28:50
SPEAKER_03: using lawsuits to intimidate and to get what he wanted,
28:54
SPEAKER_03: even if he didn't win in court.
28:56
SPEAKER_03: And so, again, it's consistent with that pattern.
28:59
I think you're absolutely right to raise the question of
29:02
whether this was a factor
29:03
SPEAKER_03: in places like the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times.
29:07
in not printing the presidential endorsements which was
29:11
historic that that didn't
29:12
happen which you know that's a basic thing that that newspapers
29:15
do and so one i
29:17
think it's a very fair question given the new the the suit
29:21
against the new york
29:22
times that included this complaint that a call was made that
29:26
intimidation was made
29:27
SPEAKER_03: that stopped that from happening so i mean i imagine that
29:31
SPEAKER_03: This might even get thrown out.
29:32
SPEAKER_03: It might not even go to trial.
29:36
SPEAKER_03: Do we know what stage we're in yet?
29:37
SPEAKER_03: Has it gone to trial yet or is this just a suit, right?
29:41
SPEAKER_01: This is just a lawsuit that has been filed.
29:43
The Wall Street Journal thing,
29:45
since it happened in July,
29:46
is probably a little farther ahead.
29:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: But I would say the point is that Trump makes these big announcements.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that is a feature of the way the right and the Trump
30:00
administration blitzes the news in these ways is that people
30:04
lose track of stories.
30:05
So all they will remember is the New York Times lied about
30:09
Donald Trump and
30:10
SPEAKER_01: manipulated the election.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: That will be the headline.
30:13
And I think Trump is very adept at imprinting these headlines
30:17
in people's minds by
30:18
SPEAKER_01: doing dramatic things that to the rest of us look sort of idiotic.
30:23
And,
30:23
you know,
30:23
there was sort of another dramatic moment during the campaign.
30:27
And this to me suggests the ways in which Trump is also using
30:34
the media as a stage
30:36
SPEAKER_01: for his performances.
30:38
We all probably recall that Donald Trump attacked Democratic
30:42
presidential candidate
30:44
Kamala Harris at the National Association of Black Journalists
30:47
Conference.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: And more broadly,
30:49
his attacks on diversity undermine the vitality of the news
30:53
environment when it
30:54
SPEAKER_01: comes to
30:55
SPEAKER_01: having a robust representation of people of color.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: But the attack on Harris at the National Association of Black Journalists
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Conference was calculated,
31:06
SPEAKER_01: right?
31:06
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't have expected to have been cheered for that, right?
31:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think, you know, this is a person who has been
31:16
incredibly obsessed with media his whole life and has been very
31:20
savvy in how he's
31:22
SPEAKER_03: used media for his advantage.
31:25
A lot of that for the early part of his career was just in
31:28
making a name for
31:29
SPEAKER_03: himself in New York and also in how he intimidated business rivals and
31:37
SPEAKER_03: And on and on.
31:38
SPEAKER_03: So he's been honing this strategy for a long time.
31:42
SPEAKER_03: And,
31:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
31:43
SPEAKER_03: I think in so many ways,
31:45
we see the real implications of that for us today on the
31:49
national stage and the
31:50
SPEAKER_03: political stage.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: But like this just grows out of a long,
31:53
long tradition that he has of using the media really sort of
31:58
strategically to his
31:59
SPEAKER_03: advantage.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
32:03
And I think it also taps into and builds upon a larger
32:08
conservative obsession with
32:11
the media that dates back to the 1930s as the media as a sort
32:15
of monolithic liberal
32:17
SPEAKER_03: institution that was corrupting society and on and on.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of things converging here,
32:24
like a bigger sort of history that's tied to a political
32:27
movement and a person's
32:29
SPEAKER_03: own personal biography and the way in which
32:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, he built a name for himself and a career.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so interesting, Neil.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking about this as you were talking.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: So this isn't in our show notes for today.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: But the right has so many big media figures.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: They had Phyllis Schlafly.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: They had Rush Limbaugh.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: They had William F. Buckley.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: They had Pat Buchanan.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: They had Charlie Kirk.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: They...
32:57
SPEAKER_01: The Democrats have Rachel Maddow.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: Why are the Democrats so bad at media,
33:03
SPEAKER_01: despite the fact that media in this country,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: the mainstream media,
33:08
has historically been quite liberal and conservatives are so
33:12
good at media?
33:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:14
And it's hard to even really compare Rachel Maddow to some of
33:18
those names.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: Even that doesn't really work as a comparison.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
33:23
And it's a big question that I think a lot of media scholars
33:27
and historians have
33:27
SPEAKER_03: spilled a lot of ink over through the years.
33:30
SPEAKER_03: Why does this happen?
33:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:33
SPEAKER_03: Is it that given the sort of
33:37
SPEAKER_03: sort of left of center leanings of traditional media.
33:40
SPEAKER_03: If that's the case,
33:41
does that then not inspire a particular voice to arise as a
33:45
sort of organizing
33:47
character in the way that like these folks as sort of outsiders
33:51
are able to
33:51
mobilize an identity and an audience behind them because they
33:57
sort of are set
33:58
SPEAKER_03: against that
33:59
establishment norm of of like you know of liberal media i mean
34:04
maybe it's that is
34:05
it also just sort of a personality type and a sort of
34:09
psychological type that is
34:12
more constituted on the right than on the left that really
34:16
works for a media space
34:18
and for again becoming a sort of media figure that inspires
34:22
enormous enormous
34:23
SPEAKER_03: audiences behind them i mean
34:26
SPEAKER_03: there is this recurring conversation on the left about,
34:30
SPEAKER_03: we need to have our own Rush Limbaugh,
34:32
SPEAKER_03: right?
34:32
SPEAKER_03: Or we need to have our own,
34:33
SPEAKER_03: like for every sort of media age,
34:36
SPEAKER_03: there's been that sort of liberal or left like moment of like,
34:40
SPEAKER_03: we need our own guy that does this.
34:44
SPEAKER_03: And it never seems to materialize.
34:47
And so I think it's just an ongoing,
34:51
it's a question that still hasn't been answered.
34:55
But yeah,
34:56
I mean,
34:57
I think,
34:58
you know,
34:59
partly it's about media culture and media structures.
35:02
And partly I think it might be also about sort of political
35:07
psychology and
35:08
SPEAKER_03: political...
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
35:11
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really interesting.
35:12
And,
35:13
you know,
35:13
when I mentioned Rachel Maddow,
35:15
I was sitting here thinking...
35:17
SPEAKER_01: You know,
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Rachel Maddow,
35:18
SPEAKER_01: every Monday,
35:19
SPEAKER_01: tells you a nice story about political economy that's super smart,
35:24
SPEAKER_01: very well-spoken,
35:25
SPEAKER_01: very passionate,
35:27
SPEAKER_01: and so on.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: And then...
35:29
Laura Loomer gets on TikTok and tells you about the vast
35:35
conspiracy that is going
35:37
to turn your children transgender and kick Donald Trump out of
35:41
the White House.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: The difference between these two kinds of stories is vast,
35:46
SPEAKER_01: but it does also strike me that in a country
35:49
that is less and less interested in or has less and less access
35:53
to education,
35:54
the audience for a particular kind of successful liberal media
35:59
is shrinking and the
36:01
SPEAKER_01: audience for conservative media is growing.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: Right.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:06
And that audience includes people who don't necessarily think
36:10
of themselves as
36:11
SPEAKER_03: conservatives or are registered as Republicans.
36:13
But because of the nature of media technology and the
36:18
distribution model and the
36:20
SPEAKER_03: content of it,
36:21
that it's wildly inviting and expansive at a moment of
36:27
institutional sort of media
36:29
SPEAKER_03: freefall,
36:30
SPEAKER_03: assaults on expertise and all the rest.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:33
And you can also consume conservative media in small bites very
36:38
effectively.
36:38
You know,
36:39
they're very adept at,
36:41
as I said earlier,
36:41
just giving you headlines.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: You really can't reduce a Rachel Maddow opening monologue,
36:47
SPEAKER_01: which is usually between 15 and 20 minutes uninterrupted by a commercial.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: You can't reduce that to a series of TikTok videos or an Instagram.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Whereas you can take a, you know,
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Ben Shapiro destroys whoever, Elizabeth Warren.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: You can take that and reduce it to about 30 or 45 seconds.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's got all the meat that anybody needs.
37:12
But,
37:12
you know,
37:12
the original stage and partly I don't want to say where's our
37:15
Rush Limbaugh.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: I want to say where is our Roger Ailes story?
37:19
because the big story for me last week that got bumped by
37:24
charlie kirk was an end
37:26
to the succession drama at the murdoch media empire which
37:30
includes valuable
37:31
conservative outlets like fox news the wall street journal and
37:34
the new york post as
37:35
SPEAKER_01: well as properties in england and australia basically like the whole
37:39
english-speaking world lachlan murdoch which i who i think is
37:42
the younger son
37:43
SPEAKER_01: finally did what his father told him to do in the first place,
37:46
SPEAKER_01: which was to buy out his siblings for over a billion dollars a piece.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: They'll be happy at last.
37:51
But it secures the company's right-wing political influence in
37:55
the English-speaking
37:56
SPEAKER_01: world for the next several decades.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's what Rupert Murdoch really cared about,
38:01
SPEAKER_01: was that this conservative media empire survived.
38:04
I've also noticed since this deal that the Trump administration
38:09
has been more or
38:10
less using Fox properties as its RT in relation to the Charlie
38:16
Kirk assassination.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: That it's the New York Post.
38:19
He announced the fact that they had a suspect in custody on the
38:23
Fox morning show,
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Fox and Friends.
38:25
So is Fox really becoming the official state channel for the
38:30
Trump administration?
38:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it feels like it.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: And I think the succession decision is important to that.
38:39
SPEAKER_03: I also think in the first Trump administration, as much as Trump
38:45
relied on and depended on Fox News for so much of his rise to
38:49
political power.
38:50
He spent a lot of that first administration really holding Fox
38:53
News' feet to the
38:54
SPEAKER_03: fire and sort of haranguing them.
38:56
SPEAKER_03: You know,
38:57
there was a big growth in these channels that sort of grew to
39:02
the right of Fox News
39:03
SPEAKER_03: that I think put real pressure on Fox News.
39:06
SPEAKER_03: I'm now forgetting the name of all of them.
39:08
SPEAKER_03: Wasn't one of them like One America?
39:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:11
SPEAKER_03: you know, that grew enormous audiences.
39:14
SPEAKER_03: And of course, they were growing audiences off of people leaving Fox.
39:18
So I think Fox felt both the pressure of Trump himself and of
39:21
like an audience that
39:23
was shifting in that first administration that they're spending
39:27
a lot of energy and
39:29
SPEAKER_03: correcting on in this one.
39:30
But it does feel like there's always been a close coordination
39:34
between the Trump
39:35
SPEAKER_03: White House and Fox News,
39:37
SPEAKER_03: but it feels really,
39:38
SPEAKER_03: really intimately connected right now.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, and we see Trump embedded in Fox News, which is now locked down.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: We see the emergence,
39:47
SPEAKER_01: as you're saying,
39:48
SPEAKER_01: of these channels,
39:49
many of which are really just Internet channels that are to the
39:53
right of Fox.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: But what we're also seeing is liberal media.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: Seeding ground, creating space, not pushing back.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: In February,
40:04
we began to see this happen when Washington Post owner Jeff
40:08
Bezos announced a new
40:09
SPEAKER_01: editorial policy that would prioritize content,
40:12
SPEAKER_01: quote,
40:12
SPEAKER_01: defending personal liberties and free markets,
40:15
accelerating departures from the Post that had begun as
40:18
downsizing through layoffs
40:21
SPEAKER_01: and buyouts in late 2023.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Ruth Marcus left.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: Jonathan Capehart has left.
40:26
So there is this sort of seeding of ground by news
40:30
organizations that gives the
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Trump administration more space to tell its own story.
40:37
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
40:37
SPEAKER_03: I mean, just sort of the center has shifted, right?
40:40
SPEAKER_03: And so, and it's also shifted rightward.
40:42
So it's not just a story about what's happening sort of in
40:47
places that call
40:49
SPEAKER_03: themselves conservative media,
40:50
SPEAKER_03: but what's happening across the media landscape in terms of content,
40:55
SPEAKER_03: editorial positions,
40:56
and the stories that are being told and the stories that aren't
40:59
being told.
40:59
SPEAKER_03: I mean, also Washington Post, Karen Atiyah was fired this past week.
41:04
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
41:07
SPEAKER_03: Because of literally quoting Charlie Kirk.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:11
SPEAKER_03: In a tweet.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: I believe it was a tweet she sent out using his own words.
41:16
SPEAKER_03: And Karen Attia,
41:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
41:18
a very well-known and well-regarded black journalist at the
41:22
Washington Post was
41:23
SPEAKER_03: immediately fired there.
41:24
SPEAKER_03: So lots of things are happening at the Post.
41:27
And I think you're right that this is about a broader media
41:30
shift across a wide
41:33
range of publications and news outlets that reflect some sort
41:37
of kowtowing to Trump
41:39
SPEAKER_03: and to Trumpism.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: No, I think I'm glad you mentioned Natalia.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: She was the last Black person at the Washington Post opinion section.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: And,
41:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:48
SPEAKER_01: the Wall Street Journal,
41:49
SPEAKER_01: to the best of my knowledge,
41:50
SPEAKER_01: has no one Black writing for them in the opinion section regularly.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: The New York Times does.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: Jamel Bowie.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: And who's that wonderful woman who writes on foreign policy?
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, but...
42:04
SPEAKER_01: There is this sort of peeling away of not just liberal journalism,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: but of what we valued in a diverse journalism workforce,
42:17
SPEAKER_01: which is people bringing competing ideas to the table.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: And it is ironic that a Republican administration,
42:24
SPEAKER_01: that Republicans used to actually care about free markets,
42:27
SPEAKER_01: they used to care about free speech,
42:29
SPEAKER_01: and they used to care about competing ideas.
42:31
And now when you compete with ideas,
42:33
you actually get shut down and punished.
42:36
SPEAKER_01: I would also say that
42:38
SPEAKER_01: In the next week,
42:40
we will see the complete defunding of the Corporation for
42:43
Public Broadcasting.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: We began with the hearings that led to that.
42:48
And one of the things Republicans kept saying was that the
42:51
relevance of traditional
42:52
SPEAKER_01: news organizations is really on the decline.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: During the CPB hearings, Louisiana Republican Senator John Kennedy said,
43:02
SPEAKER_01: emphasized this.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: He said that the Americans have moved on,
43:06
SPEAKER_01: that they can be informed by an array of things on the internet.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: They don't need radio.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: They don't need television.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: They don't need traditional news organizations.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: They can just do their own research on the internet.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: Neil, what do you think?
43:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I think you're right about what's going to happen there.
43:23
SPEAKER_03: I think this is a
43:26
SPEAKER_03: sort of convenient argument on the part of Kennedy.
43:28
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't really mean that.
43:30
SPEAKER_03: Or rather, you know, that's not what this is really about.
43:33
SPEAKER_03: This is about,
43:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
43:35
hacking an institution that conservatives have long had in
43:39
their crosshairs.
43:40
SPEAKER_03: And we've talked about
43:41
uh the cpb several times on here particularly the ways in which
43:45
you know it's it's
43:46
always been this sort of boogeyman on the rights on the right
43:49
in terms of it being
43:50
you know this liberal content maker but as we know we've talked
43:53
about you know it's
43:54
also what brings weather updates to rural america and in many
43:58
many places is the
43:59
one source of any sort of information which is to say that all
44:02
of this is assault
44:03
on actually some of the basic ways in which so many americans
44:07
get news and so this
44:09
SPEAKER_03: sort of argument on kennedy's part that there's like
44:11
SPEAKER_03: You know,
44:12
all these opportunities for Americans to consume news from all
44:16
sorts of different
44:17
SPEAKER_03: sources isn't true for a lot of Americans.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: Well,
44:21
and let's focus in a little bit on how Trump is actually using
44:28
these traditional
44:29
SPEAKER_01: news organizations to try to shift the discourse.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: And let's focus in on Paramount.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: There's a dynamic here,
44:36
SPEAKER_01: which Trump sues a major corporation,
44:39
SPEAKER_01: and in exchange for dropping the lawsuit,
44:41
SPEAKER_01: they not only...
44:43
pay through the nose but they agree to do certain kinds of
44:46
things so when the trump
44:48
administration was suing cbs that was an impediment to the 8.4
44:53
billion dollar
44:54
merger between paramount global and skydance that had been
44:58
hanging fire for over
44:59
two years and the federal trade commission didn't want to
45:02
approve it sherry
45:03
SPEAKER_01: redstone was screwing it up bunch of stuff was going on but
45:07
SPEAKER_01: When Trump settled his lawsuit against CBS News,
45:12
SPEAKER_01: or at least CBS News's news division,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: they committed $16 million to Trump's future presidential library.
45:20
More importantly,
45:21
they made changes in their editorial policy as part of the
45:25
settlement.
45:27
Skydance also promised prior to the merger's approval to
45:30
install an ombudsperson to
45:32
SPEAKER_01: evaluate charges of bias at the network.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: That person is Kenneth Weinstein,
45:37
SPEAKER_01: a Trump donor and a former head of the conservative Hudson Institute.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: This is just crazy pants, Neil.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: It is crazy pants.
45:45
And I think that the editorial policy changes that CBS said
45:50
that it will do include
45:51
things like it will now print the entire transcript of
45:55
interviews it does with.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: And in some ways,
45:57
SPEAKER_03: I think we can say like,
45:59
SPEAKER_03: okay,
45:59
SPEAKER_03: this feels like maybe a good move for openness and for transparency,
46:04
SPEAKER_03: but that's a move that should happen if it happens at all.
46:07
because of the internal decision-making of a media company and
46:11
what it wants to do
46:12
SPEAKER_03: in terms of its content and how it shares information with the world,
46:16
SPEAKER_03: not through governmental intimidation and demand.
46:22
SPEAKER_03: I suppose some of this maybe just falls under FCC regulatory powers,
46:27
SPEAKER_03: but it seems like a real incursion on the First Amendment,
46:31
SPEAKER_03: I think,
46:32
SPEAKER_03: is the way to think about this.
46:34
And also the decision of someone like this,
46:37
is it Whitestone or Whitestone?
46:39
SPEAKER_03: Weinstein, rather, to be the ombudsman for Skydance.
46:44
SPEAKER_03: To evaluate charges of bias,
46:47
it's going to be very interesting to see what his list of
46:52
examples of biases are
46:53
SPEAKER_03: that emerge in the coming months.
46:55
I imagine it's going to be of a very particular politics and
46:59
won't be sort of wide
47:01
SPEAKER_03: and expansive.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
47:05
I also think that what an ombudsperson is,
47:09
that generally is an internal job.
47:11
It is not something that you actually get to complain that you
47:15
and I get to call
47:16
SPEAKER_01: CBS and say,
47:17
SPEAKER_01: we don't like the way that story went.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: So it's not altogether clear what this person's job is.
47:23
But there's another conservative who's going to have a corner
47:26
office at CBS too,
47:27
SPEAKER_01: and that's Barry Weist.
47:29
whose Free Press Substack is in contract,
47:33
I think,
47:34
for a $200 million payout.
47:37
And then Weiss is supposed to be installed in an editorial
47:40
position at CBS News.
47:42
First of all,
47:43
this is a dramatic change in fortunes for Barry Weiss,
47:49
going from being trashed in
47:52
at the New York Times by her colleagues three years ago to a
47:56
$200 million payout
47:58
SPEAKER_01: and an executive position at a major news organization.
48:01
But what does it mean to actually have the government mandating
48:07
that a media
48:08
SPEAKER_01: company hire conservatives?
48:10
SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for the rest of us, Neil?
48:13
Well,
48:14
on one hand,
48:14
it means that the First Amendment is under direct assault.
48:17
SPEAKER_03: It also means in terms of
48:19
the content they're going to see is going to be in coordination
48:23
with a presidential
48:25
administration in service of that administration so how do we
48:29
not call this state
48:31
media and how is this not the very thing that we would point to
48:34
in different
48:35
countries around the world as the exact of how those places are
48:39
not free and so
48:41
it's it's a stunning development i also think just to talk
48:44
about the barry weiss of
48:45
SPEAKER_03: it all i mean
48:46
SPEAKER_03: You know,
48:47
SPEAKER_03: she was someone when she left The New York Times,
48:49
SPEAKER_03: which she did on her own volition,
48:51
SPEAKER_03: let's remember.
48:52
SPEAKER_03: She could have stayed there forever,
48:53
could have continued to write what I think was not very
48:56
interesting or compelling
48:58
SPEAKER_03: op-ed pieces and probably was paid quite well to do so.
49:01
SPEAKER_03: But she left because she said, you know, the place...
49:04
was not hospitable to her ideas and she went you know to sort
49:08
of pursue and to
49:09
develop the free press as this sort of anti-institutional thing
49:13
that operated
49:14
outside you know the the the the terrain of of traditional
49:18
media so for then to for
49:20
her to so quickly end up back at a perch like cbs news is to
49:25
say that like that
49:27
SPEAKER_03: critique and that sort of personal
49:29
statement of what her career was about and represented was like
49:35
just a scam all along.
49:36
SPEAKER_03: She just like,
49:37
SPEAKER_03: it's hard to not see this as just like following a money trail,
49:39
SPEAKER_03: which involves a lot of grift.
49:41
SPEAKER_03: But like to end up,
49:43
SPEAKER_03: to leave the New York Times in such a sort of like anti-institutional,
49:47
SPEAKER_03: like,
49:48
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:48
SPEAKER_03: a traditional media is corrupt and we have to operate outside of it.
49:52
And then to end up as the director of CBS News is to sort of
49:55
just give a lie to it
49:56
SPEAKER_03: all,
49:57
SPEAKER_03: isn't it?
49:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, it certainly gives a lie to it.
50:00
It is also very Trumpy in the sense that somebody who has
50:05
worked as a columnist has
50:07
SPEAKER_01: run a Substack with a staff of what,
50:10
SPEAKER_01: 20 or 25 people might now be in charge of a news organization or
50:16
SPEAKER_01: of hundreds of people that do things that she doesn't understand.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: She's never been a broadcast journalist.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: She's never been a producer.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: She's never actually worked in that environment.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: And so it's very Trumpy,
50:30
the idea that you can just sort of plug somebody in who's a
50:34
conservative and
50:35
SPEAKER_01: they're going to do a great job.
50:37
I think people at CBS must be,
50:40
you know,
50:41
stabbing their eyes out with a fork.
50:43
at this point and my guess is we're going to see a lot of
50:46
people departing cbs
50:48
which is of course also how transformation happens i mean you
50:52
know trump didn't
50:53
have to fire everybody in government that got fired a lot of
50:56
people left because
50:58
they didn't want to stay and deal with it and so i think
51:01
there's going to be a lot
51:02
SPEAKER_01: of volatility in the media industry in the next few years absolutely
51:10
SPEAKER_01: So Neil, as media entrepreneurs, what do we want to go viral this week?
51:15
SPEAKER_01: You start.
51:16
SPEAKER_03: I want to go viral this week.
51:17
SPEAKER_03: That's really fantastic.
51:18
SPEAKER_03: And
51:20
Interesting and really sort of scary piece in The New Republic
51:23
by Gil Duran.
51:24
The piece is titled,
51:25
What's Up with Peter Thiel's Obsession with the Antichrist?
51:29
SPEAKER_03: Subtitle,
51:30
the tech mogul is amping up his apocalyptic rhetoric and adding
51:34
a dangerous dose of
51:35
SPEAKER_03: extremism into the already fraught culture war.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: I was sort of generally aware of this preoccupation of Thiel.
51:42
SPEAKER_03: Thiel for, I think probably everyone knows, the tech billionaire.
51:46
SPEAKER_03: gay, far-right backer of J.D.
51:49
Vance and a huge advocate for Trump and a real funder of
51:56
far-right political
51:57
efforts in the last decade or so has really sort of positioned
52:01
himself as a public
52:03
SPEAKER_03: intellectual in recent years.
52:05
SPEAKER_03: But I guess public intellectual isn't really right.
52:08
SPEAKER_03: He's sort of a private intellectual to a very cultivated world
52:13
SPEAKER_03: mostly of other tech billionaires and conservative activists.
52:17
And he is obsessed with the Antichrist and apparently has been
52:21
giving not only
52:22
SPEAKER_03: public talks about this,
52:24
SPEAKER_03: which I was generally aware of,
52:26
but apparently a lot of private lectures to Silicon Valley
52:30
folks about the
52:31
SPEAKER_03: Antichrist.
52:32
SPEAKER_03: And this piece does a really nice job of historicizing that.
52:37
SPEAKER_03: And of pointing to how in American political culture,
52:41
SPEAKER_03: the figure of the Antichrist has been this recurrent,
52:44
SPEAKER_03: like,
52:44
SPEAKER_03: you know,
52:45
SPEAKER_03: motif,
52:45
SPEAKER_03: like this recurrent.
52:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
52:47
is is is recurringly invoked usually in moments of great
52:52
political and cultural
52:53
upheaval right so figures are often called the antichrist in
53:00
these moments of
53:01
crisis because it's a sort of unifying thing to be done whether
53:06
it's mussolini or
53:07
fdr or social social security numbers it's not always people
53:11
like sometimes it's
53:12
SPEAKER_03: things that are called the antichrist
53:14
SPEAKER_01: But Neil, I have to interrupt you.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell our listeners who the Antichrist is?
53:18
SPEAKER_01: Because I had to look it up.
53:19
SPEAKER_01: I did not know.
53:20
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: I thought the Antichrist was Satan.
53:24
no thank you for saying this because i assume that all of y'all
53:28
grew up in
53:29
evangelical sunday school like i did the antichrist is not
53:34
satan but rather a
53:36
shadowy figure that's actually hardly mentioned at all in the
53:39
bible but through i
53:40
think a lot more sort of religious legend and sort of lots of
53:45
evangelicals and
53:46
SPEAKER_03: fundamentalist pop culture throughout history
53:50
The Antichrist is a figure who will rise up and help Satan kick
53:55
off Armageddon.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: So he's like Satan's boyfriend.
53:59
SPEAKER_03: Satan's figure on earth that will coordinate this.
54:03
And also that he or they or whatever will consolidate a global
54:11
government under
54:12
SPEAKER_03: their authority and will wreak havoc on the world,
54:17
SPEAKER_03: but particularly on Christian believers,
54:20
SPEAKER_03: but that will bring about Armageddon.
54:22
SPEAKER_03: And so anyway,
54:23
this has been a figure that has been invoked over and over
54:25
again through history.
54:27
Peter Thiel is apparently incredibly preoccupied with this and
54:31
is really devoting
54:32
SPEAKER_03: so much attention to this in his circles.
54:35
And I think that this piece does a really nice job of both sort
54:38
of historicizing
54:39
SPEAKER_03: that tendency and also thinking about like,
54:42
SPEAKER_03: what does it mean that a tech billionaire
54:45
who's one of his companies is a surveillance company that is
54:49
now working in
54:50
SPEAKER_03: coordination with this federal government.
54:54
What does it mean that such a figure would be obsessed with the
54:59
Antichrist?
54:59
SPEAKER_03: Because in many ways,
55:01
SPEAKER_03: Peter Thiel himself sort of ticks a lot of the boxes of what people have
55:06
SPEAKER_03: traditionally thought of,
55:07
SPEAKER_03: like who the Antichrist might be.
55:12
SPEAKER_03: The piece is fantastic.
55:13
SPEAKER_03: It's like deeply historical and like has a lot of really smart insights.
55:17
SPEAKER_03: So people should read it.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: So I loved it.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: And I loved it because it made me look up what the Antichrist was.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: Because when I saw it, I thought Antichrist equals Satan.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, the Antichrist is not at all Satan.
55:28
SPEAKER_01: But tell me if I overread this.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: Peter Thiel thinks that the Antichrist might be Greta Thunberg, right?
55:35
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's one name that he has tossed out before.
55:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: And so I think,
55:42
SPEAKER_03: you know,
55:43
the piece makes the point that like names get tossed out all
55:47
the time through
55:48
SPEAKER_03: history.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
55:50
but that it's always a really dangerous thing to do so because
55:54
the sort of
55:55
resolution of so much of this energy is a consolidation of
56:02
diverse people into a
56:04
SPEAKER_03: really violent and vengeful,
56:07
SPEAKER_03: you know,
56:07
SPEAKER_03: series of actions.
56:08
And so it is like really harmful to invoke anti-Christ sort of
56:14
discourse in
56:14
SPEAKER_03: general,
56:15
SPEAKER_03: but particularly when it's directed at certain people,
56:18
SPEAKER_03: it can really,
56:19
SPEAKER_03: take violent ends and sort of stirs up like the darkest,
56:23
SPEAKER_03: the sort of darkest motivations of a society.
56:26
I loved this article,
56:27
Neil,
56:28
and I second your,
56:30
your desire that our listeners read it.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: So for me this week,
56:34
SPEAKER_01: it's Ta-Nehisi Coates' article in Vanity Fair,
56:38
SPEAKER_01: Charlie Kirk redeemed a political class finds its lost cause.
56:43
and unintimidated by the ire that is being aimed at anybody who
56:49
says anything about
56:51
SPEAKER_01: Charlie Kirk that is real.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: Coates does the work that many writers are too lazy or too afraid to do.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a long read and it counters the narrative that Kirk,
57:00
SPEAKER_01: quote,
57:01
SPEAKER_01: did politics the right way,
57:03
SPEAKER_01: Ezra Klein's worst column ever,
57:05
SPEAKER_01: and that he engaged in reasonable debates.
57:07
SPEAKER_01: And Coates shows how Kirk wore
57:10
wove bigotry and hatred into an existing conservative narrative
57:15
about faith,
57:15
SPEAKER_01: family,
57:16
SPEAKER_01: and white supremacy.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: One quote from the article,
57:19
SPEAKER_01: he says,
57:19
what are we to make of a man who called for the execution of
57:23
the American president
57:24
SPEAKER_01: and then was executed himself?
57:26
SPEAKER_01: In fact, Charlie Kirk called for the execution of Joe Biden.
57:30
SPEAKER_01: But what Coates does in a way that is very,
57:34
SPEAKER_01: very powerful is he pulls quotes over and over and over again.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: What Charlie Kirk really said about black people,
57:41
SPEAKER_01: what he really said about trans people,
57:44
SPEAKER_01: and that a lot of his rhetoric was extremely violent.
57:48
Again,
57:48
I repeat myself,
57:49
none of this excuses a political assassination,
57:53
but
57:54
SPEAKER_01: People aren't wrong to have not liked Charlie Kirk.
57:58
SPEAKER_01: People are not wrong to have feared Charlie Kirk.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: And people are not wrong to have characterized him as a bigot.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think Coates really makes the case in this column.
58:09
I think everyone should read it just so they can be attached to
58:16
reality in the face
58:18
SPEAKER_01: of the large number of people who want to confer sainthood on this man.
58:24
SPEAKER_03: I haven't read that piece yet, but I will be doing so immediately.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really good.
58:30
Well,
58:30
Neil,
58:30
this was a very serious week for us,
58:33
building on a serious last week.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: Maybe next week we can cheer people up a little bit.
58:39
SPEAKER_03: Let's hope so, but I'm not sure that's the pattern we're in right now.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: We'll do what we can.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: And that's it for today's show.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for hanging out with us.
58:52
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58:55
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58:55
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58:57
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59:23
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59:50
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