Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Badge of Betrayal: How a Dead Pedophile Cop Exposed a Police Culture Crisis

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Badge of Betrayal: How a Dead Pedophile Cop Exposed a Police Culture Crisis · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: At pod Shape Production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Adam Shann. I'm not normally in the business of promoting
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: other podcasts, but today is an exception. This one goes
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: to the heart of the integrity of policing and the
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: idea that police is subject to the same rules as
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: you and I. Badge of Betrayal is an investigative true
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: crime podcast from Podshape, which also makes this podcast that
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: examines the allegation surrounding former Tasmanian Senior Sergeant Paul Reynolds
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: and also ask broader questions about police culture, accountability, and
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: institutional failure within the.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Tasmanian Police Force.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: The series focuses on reynolds rise through the ranks despite
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: long standing allegations of child sexual abuse and grooming.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: It includes interviews with.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Current and former police officers, including whistleblowers who suggest warning
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: sigh were either ignored or suppressed. It also addresses the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: wider question of whether institutional loyalty protected an alleged offender
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: instead of vulnerable people. The podcast goes beyond the actions
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: of one individual and investigates whether systemic failures allowed misconduct
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: within TASPOL to continue for years and possibly it's still happening.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: It also examines links to other significant Tasmanian cases and inquiries,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: including the Weas Inquiry and issues surrounding youth protection and policing.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I'm joined by Jay Walker and the producer and host
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: of Badge of Betrayal, who is also my producer.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, Jane, Okay, Adam, how are you mate?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Spinages like this morning, Like this morning, Always a pleasure
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: to talk to you.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Congratulations on Badge of Betrayal.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: It's a very important podcast because it touches on issues
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: of public interest that go beyond Tasmania. What's the response
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: been like to it?
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Pretty much?
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: For bat it was a big response, and I think
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: for me I didn't recognize the gravitas that it could
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: have based on the subject matter we were talking about.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: And that sounds fairly simple. But you know a lot
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: of the time, as you would know, you hit brick
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: walls everywhere and it's hard to actually get the true story.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: But what actually happened with this particular show an investigation,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: was that the moment we aired it, people just started
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: coming forward.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Now, Paul Reynolds took his own life in twenty eighteen,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: so there's no one to charge or lock up.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: There have been police inquiries.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Has he been a commission of an independent commission of inquiry?
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Why was the podcast still needed?
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: I think there were a couple of key things that
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: we thought still needed to be investigated. And first was
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: back in two thousand and eight, Reynolds was accused by
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of coppers in a bar in Tasmania
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: at the Academy Bar which is at the Police Academy,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: around him being it was overheard that he was a
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: peto and subsequently that was handed up the line into
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: police and senior police decided that it needed to go
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: no further and if it did go further it could
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: ruin his career and the people making the allegation's career,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: so it was stopped in two thousand and eight. He
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: continued offending until twenty eighteen until he was found out.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: On the day he was found out, professional standards raided
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: his home. They seized his phone, his laptops and they
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: raided his home because there were allegations made by boys
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: at a local football club that he had done things
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: to them. And then pretty much that evening, he while
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: his wife was at work took a gun, went down
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: to a local farm and shot himself in the head.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: This story is a tragedy on many levels, for Reynold's family,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: for the Tasmanian community, and the failure to heed those
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: early warning signs arguably made this much worse.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Is that what your podcast comes to the conclusion.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Of, without a doubt, Without a doubt, I think you know,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight, we have the issue at
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: the bar. Then in twenty eighteen he takes his own life.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: Seven days later, they give him a full police funeral
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: and essentially celebrate his life as a police officer while
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: knowing full well at least a few people knowing full well,
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: and he was being investigated for child sex offenses. So
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: I think there has to be more to that story.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: There has to be who knew, who okayed that funeral?
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: How did it go so wrong for so long? And really,
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: you know, the inquiries since then, the Weaice inquiry and
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: the government inquiry into Reynolds really uncovered a bunch of things,
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: but they didn't uncover who actually knew about the funeral,
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Who said this is okay, Yes, we know he's being
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: investigated by professional standards, but we still think it's worth
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: giving him a funeral, you know. Even so, we reported
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: the podcast that there was an event a short time
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: after his death, and because the brochures had already been printed,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: there was a tribute to him in the brochures. Now,
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know how much it is to replace a brochure,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: but I can't imagine. It's in the thousands. So, and
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: there was a large picture of him on the wall
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: celebrating his life when most people were a lot of
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: people knew that he'd been offending for some time.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think the Weice inquiry is interesting because
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: not only did it not interrogate the question of the
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: police funeral, but it was specifically excluded from the terms
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: of reference. So, I mean, I'll put these words in
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: your mouth. That's just the case of ass covering.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I think the.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Weice Inquiry Regina always did a great job at finding
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: out the information that she did. However, the terms of reference,
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: and she states this herself in an ABC interview, the
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: terms of reference didn't have the scope to investigate that
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: particular funeral. There's one man that's on the hook for that.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: His name is the former Police Commissioner of Tasmania. Darren
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: hin He is the one that approved the funeral. What
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: we've been asking in the podcast for the last six
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: months is who else knew, because surely it's not one
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: man that approves the police funeral. In various RTI documents
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: that we've been able to attain, there's a lot of
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: emails to and from politicians senior police around the issue.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: But it was a very organized funeral. They knew where
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: it was happening, where the motor cab was going to go.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: There were questions about whether people should wear full honors
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: or was it just a funeral. You know, there were
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: a lot of people at that funeral. It was a
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: moment in Tasmanian police history where everyone was there to
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: see Reynolds. And from the people we've spoken to inside
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: the force who speak at great risk to their own
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: career under anonymity, most of them said, we didn't go
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: because we knew why.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the old Watergate questions here are very relevant.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: What did they know and when did they know it?
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Both about reynolds alleged offending and the decision to give
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: him this police funeral. How much do we know about
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: the hierarchy's involvement in both those questions.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: We know that Reynolds passed through the academy at a
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: very particular time in the Tasmanian Police Force. It was
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: a time where other senior police had also passed through
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: the academy. Now that's not saying that they were complicit
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: in any way, that's just saying that factually they were
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: together at the police Academy and for a lot of
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: times they passed through. You know, Tasmanian is a small
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: police and community. In real terms, it's eighteen hundred people
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: at best. So Reynolds, as he moved up the ranks
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: to inspector, would have passed through a whole bunch of
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: other police officers who hierarchically would have been either higher
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: than him or on the same level. And so we're
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: asking those questions, and we have been asking those questions
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: for the last six months about exactly what you said,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: the Watergate issue of who knew, when did they know?
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: And they should be easy questions to answer, but I
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: can tell you that they're just in principle, it's much
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: much harder.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: But you're picking at the scenes of this concept of
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: the blue family that you know, what happens in the
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: force stays in the force, particularly now he's dead. I'm
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: just this is a rationalization of the sort of thought
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: processes that take place, But I think it just misses
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: the vital public dimension. You know what happened, why did
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: it go for so long? And why are people still
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: reluctant to call out the full scope of what Reynolds
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: was up to to the point where you've got a whistleblower,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: a current serving officer who actually points to larger systemic
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: issues within Tasmania Police, not just Reynolds, but a culture
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: where domestic violence amongst police are rife, other forms of misconduct.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: And I always believe that a police force, but once
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: a generation needs a thorough clean out as many a
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: police hasn't had one. I think this could be the moment.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: It feels like that. The gentleman that we spoke to,
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: we call him Tom in the podcast, it's not his
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: real name. We met secretly. He's senior, he'd worked with Reynolds.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: We did so far as much to protect his identity
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: that we've changed the voice. We've had a voice actor
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: read his exact words. And when I spoke to him
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: some time ago and asked, and we I've only ever
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: spoken to him once I spoke to him for the
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: interview and that's it. We did not have any communications.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: I've been talking to him if I do, through an intermediateary.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: So you can imagine he's worried about his career. He's
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: still inside the force and I actually don't know how
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: he's doing now, but I have it on good authority
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: he's okay. But he was worried that, you know, that
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Blue Brigade, that camaraderie within the force was going to
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: be a problem for him at some point. And I
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: think that's why, you know, you talk about domestic violence.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: He mentions that it's one of the biggest issues in
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: the force at the moment and not being properly investigated.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: So the announcement last week of a government inquiry into
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: the Tasmanian Police Force into two things, one into the
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Tasmanium Police Force allegations of child sexual abuse or abuse
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: and also domestic violence, and then equally the investigation into
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Reynolds and who knew, how they knew, the funeral and
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: all of the other things that surround it.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really important.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I think actually in every state police probably the fens
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: as well, this issue of domestic violence is there and
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: states vary, but I think the fact that people are
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: getting away with either beating up their partners or preventing
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: partners giving testimony and generally covering it up is an
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: endemic issue in policing. And the ironic thing is our
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: state police forces have become much better at investigating domestic violence.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: I think it seriously, just not within their own ranks.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: So hopefully this part of the inquiry is a pathfinder
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: for other police but also individuals like your whistleblower, that
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: you can't be part of a family that's doing this
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: and the family is sick and needs to be purged.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: And we've seen this in other states.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: It is the what's that old saying about sunlight being
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the best disinfectant and you're bringing it to Tasmania police.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: So well done, Jay, Thanks Adam.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: And I think his words were he joined the police force.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: We're talking about the current serving police officer. He joined
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: the police force to do good and it breaks his
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: heart to see it in this place. And you know,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: I think it's important to say that we're not saying
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: there's rotten apples only in the Tasmanian Police Force. There
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: are a lot of good cops and we've spoken to
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: a bunch of them, whether they wanted to come on
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: the show or not. There are a lot of people
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: doing good work, but there are some rotten apples, and
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: what we're trying to do is, as you said, shine
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: a light on those and hopefully force something more to
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: be done.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Well, they're always going to be individuals who break the
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: law wearing a uniform.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: They're human beings.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: It's the institutional response to it that becomes the issue.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: It's always the cover up that brings people undone rather
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: than the action. Because if these things are being properly investigated,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: people are being charged and being dealt with. The community
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: says fine, good. We're the same as these individuals. Where
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: there's an idea that there's one rule for one, one
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: rule for another, it's totally unacceptable. So, I mean, I
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: think a good example you're raised in the podcast is
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's two thousand and I forget the exact
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: date in the Academy bar in Hobart there, Yeah, two
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: thousand and eight. You've got to visiting police officer. Here's
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: some Tasmania policemen talking about the fact that Reynolds seems
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: to be a pedo. He was massaging a young kid,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: and you know, that's the sort of thing that professional
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: standards should have looked at, but it was sort of
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: washed away with a kind of like, oh, just a misunderstanding.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: No one was interviewed. It was handled by very senior police.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I don't want to name names, but very senior police
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: who should have known better. And it's not just the
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: justice done, but the appearance of justice. And arguably I'm
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: not making excuses for Reynolds, but this is a reason
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: if he'd been properly hauled before professional standards and dealt with,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: maybe ten years of offending would not have occurred.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: That's right, and I think you know to actually name names.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: Donna Adams, who's the current police commissioner, has said on
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: record that she feels bad about that moment because she
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: was the one that reported it up the line on
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: that particular evening. She was told by someone and then
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: she reported that, which is right. The gap for me
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: is what the people up the line ended up doing.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: And as we speak about in the podcast and with
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: our under our copper who doesn't want to be named,
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: he says that that automatically should be interviews with everyone
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: in the bar professional standards grabs it and goes great,
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: we're talking to everyone, and we're talking to Reynolds. Reynolds
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: was never talked to about that matter ever, so no
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: one ever asked him, Hey, Paul, we had you know,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: this allegation made last night at the bar, like what
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: do you think of that? And so for him not
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: to be able to ask the question shows a real
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: lack of follow through I think from Tasmanian Police at
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: the time.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: It's mystifying, Jane. We make no allegations about any individual.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: There's an email feasance here, but it's just a complete
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: breakdown of the processes one would expect, which has led
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: your whistleblower to taking the dangerous step of looking to you.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: And I think you've handl him with great discretion.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Well done, But I suspect there's more people out there,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: and if you're listening, Tasmania Police officers, this is the
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: time to get in touch. We can continue these issues,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: not just on Badger betrayal, but real crime, Madam Sham.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: So you know, and I think this is how the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: light gets in you know where out of doubt that
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I think that people should be emboldened where and I've
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: had this situation before in my journalism career, where current
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: serving officers feel they have no choice other than to
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: speak to the press at great risk and sometimes risking
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: charges as well. But ultimately it all works out because
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: it's in the public interest. It's even in the interest
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: ironically of poor Reynolds, because what was the set of
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: circumstances that led to his offending. You've talked in the
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: podcast about depressive illnesses that he suffered, the fact that
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: at a certain point he gives up rank as an
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: inspector to go back to being a senior sergeant, which
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: rarely ever happens.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: This is a guy clearly in some strife, and.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Yet the least culture seems to have failed him as well.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: And I know that the victims obviously suffered grievously, but
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: I think he could have been handled better too.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Listen, I agree.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: I think there is a moment in time where you know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: these types of things when they happen, could be caught.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: And it's not in two thousand and eight, it's the
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: twenty years prior to that that he was a cop.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's a guy who was at all of
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: the major events that happened in Tasmania, the Beaconsfield mines,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: the Port Arthur massacre. He'd worked those jobs. He'd been
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: close to a lot of friends, so you know, surely
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: the allegations are that he had some gambling issues, and
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: you know they're fairly substantive. So clearly he was a
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: man with some demons. And that's not to take away
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: from any of the offending that he did. But you're
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: right in saying this sort of just gets swept under
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: the carpet because Bow, as he was nicknamed, was a
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: good bloke.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you listen to the podcast, you see
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: there's some fairly explicit conduct going on grooming, he was
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: involved in the in basketball, he was involved in young people.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: With cars and people knew this.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: People knew that he was knocking around with young people
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: and you've done very well and getting those people to
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: speak and so the warning signs were there. And so
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I mean Tasmania is a bit different. Let's face it, it
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: is different. It's a different culture down there, with a
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: reconservative society, and people don't like to speak out of turn,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: but in this case, I think they're about to and
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I can see this parliamentary inquiry being a historic one
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: where people come forward with other issues of this nature
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: and maybe it's the fire that cleanses.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: It's interesting. When this was announced last week, we were
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: fairly quick to release an episode talking about the fact
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: that inquiry had been approved through Parliament and that it
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: was going forward. I had no fewer than twenty messages
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: from people we've spoken to or obviously in the encrypted
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: app who were like, I'm making a submission, now how
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: do I do it? And we are still holding on
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: to other information that we haven't yet aired, based on
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: the fact that, as you know, Adam, the defamation laws
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: in this country are tough. Rightly, so you don't want
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: to make allegations against someone that are untrue. But there
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: are numerous other allegations that we haven't yet aired that
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: we believe could be part of a submission to Parliament.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Oh good, because there's also one important point to remember.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Tasmania is the only state where the dead can sue
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: for defamation.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Did you know that correctly?
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: Yes? I did know that one hundred percent.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, it's an interesting position. Listen, there's a couple
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: of other things that happen in Tasmania that are different
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: to other states they've recently changed. But as part of
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: our reporting and another podcast, it were families of people
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: who have died weren't able to access their own coronial files.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: In most other states Australia you can do that, but
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: in Tasmania you couldn't do that. That law change got
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: passed through legislation in December of last year where families
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: can now see the coronial files. What was interesting about
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: the Paul Reynolds coronial issue is that his coronial finding
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: or inquest happened at a time where three other police
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: officers also were included. So there were four police officers
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: in the one inquiry. The three other police officers all
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: took their own life due totsd. Reynolds obviously took his
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: life due to other factors. And we've asked the question
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: of the coroner in Tasmania why was that? Why was
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: his inquest included in three other officers. As yet we've
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: not been able to establish it a clear enough reason,
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: and we've been refused from the Coroner's office as per
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: the legislation that we're not able to get those files.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: My experience, however, you have something that's called freedom of
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: information or right to information.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: There is no right and no freedom.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: It's heavily proscribed, and you know, the system protects itself,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: and I think it's only when people from inside the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: system begin to break ranks, and you've had.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: That with your whistleblower.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I do note that he said in your interview that
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: if there was a royal commission, he would give evidence.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, he would. Yeah, And that's a question. We ask
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: all our interviewees and there's not one that said no.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: They are all willing to go on record, at great
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: risk to themselves to actually say what they've found. We've
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: spoken to two who are now young men who are
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: in their thirties who were offended against by Reynolds, and
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: one actually said which blew me away. And speaking to
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: people who are in this industry and looking after safe
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: ways to talk about child abuse, they basically said that
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: all this gentleman said that he knows how wrong it
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: is to feel this, but he still saw Reynolds and
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: seizes Reynolds as a father figure, as a mentor. And
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: he's a man who's a no defender and he knows
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: that now, but he still sees him as that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: And that's the nature of grooming.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: There is a gas lighting, inculcating Black Brooks of brainwashing
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: process that goes on that people can continue to protect
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: their abuses for many years to come. I've been in
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: your position where you spend so long looking at a
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: set of facts, looking at a set of people. What's
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: your gut feel about poor Reynolds, who he was and
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: why he did what he did.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: To be honest, I've not spent any time thinking about
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: who he was, and that may seem callous, but I
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: think I've spoken to so many people that were offended
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: by him. I don't want to spend any bandwidth on
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: him as a person. And so I think, and I've
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: asked this question of a few people, how is that
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: a podcast can drive change in a system where we
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: should be really the last line. It shouldn't be us.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: It actually should be governments and institutions that make changes.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: And the fact that a podcast, whether it be this
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: one or you know, there's another podcast which was great
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: by a woman called Camille Biyanke, called a Nurse. It
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: was the reason that James Griffin, who was a pedophile
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: nurse in Tasmania, ended up getting found out. And believe
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: it or not, he did exactly what Reynolds did prior
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: to him being put in jail, he took his own
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: life in hospital, in the same hospital he offended again
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: in And so I feel like I've not spent any
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: time thinking about Reynolds as a person because I don't
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: have the bandwidth and I'm more thinking about the people
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: he offended against.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: So you're dodging my question. That's all right, fair enough,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I do that enough.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: But the takeout I think is that he's not an
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: isolated well, he may be an isolated case in terms
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: of this sort of offending, but if there's a culture
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: in Tasmania police where there's no accountability, where mates look
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: after mates, the self preservation is put above protection of
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the public, you've got a problem in the police force.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And I think I'll disagree with you on one point.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: It is our job in.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: A democracy to do just that. And what's happened over
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: the journey in mainstream media is the business model is
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: so compromised we can't do the work we used to
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: do it. So it is falling to people who look
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: at these things as a labor of love and love
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: of journalism, love of transparency, and I think this is
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: infuriating to the powers that be sometimes because it's very
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: easy to silence a mainstream media voice by saying I'll
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: call your boss or I'll call your advertisers, all that
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: type of stuff. Whereas I think a lot of the
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: great work that's going on, be it teachers pet or
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Badger betrayal or my next podcast, whatever it is, I
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: think there's a legitimate role.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: And I think it's great to.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: See Badger Betrayal get recognized by the Parliament saying we
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: take this seriously and the public needs to know.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Thanks Adam, and I listen.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Not trying to downplay what any of the work that
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: any of the media do in driving change. I guess
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: my feeling is that like it's one thing for us
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: to report on it and drive more questions to be answered.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: But I can tell you that from at least two
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: thousand and eight, there should have been other people asking
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: the same question.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Right, And that goes to the nature of Tasmania as
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: a state. I was in Queensland before the Fitzgerald inquiry.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: There was one or two journalists who were talking about
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: the corruption of the buickypedis and government and the police
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: force there, and it turned into a torrent when it
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: became politically safe to do so, so you deal with
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: vested interests and that's where I'm really proud of what's
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: happening in true crime podcasting is that the vested interests
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: simply aren't there. We are speaking to our audience and
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: will continue to do so. I'm really proud of you, Jay.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I think you've stuck the task very well while managing
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: all the issues around my podcast as well.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: On you, there's no issues around your podcast, so we
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: love it and I think I think the other thing
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: that's worth noting too is that a parliamentary inquiry means
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: that there is parliamentary privilege. Now, parliamentary privilege means that
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: nobody can be sued for defamation, and so I think
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: that's really important and we've made that fact not about us,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: but more about people wanting to come forward, because that's
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: the scary bit, right, The scary bit is if I
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: say this, what will happen to me? But if you
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: don't say it, what happens? And we know what the
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: answer is nothing, So it's way more important. And with
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: the protection of parliamentary parliamentary privilege, it means that's some
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: of the questions that we've been posing can be asked
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: by the people that we've been speaking to, and hopefully
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: there are some more answers to come, and that systemic
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: issue that we believe there is inside tas Pole can
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: finally be confronted and steps made to change.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: It right and more episodes to come.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Jake, Yes, there are and a lot more episodes to come,
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: but you know, I think right now where we've just
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: released an episode last week which is sort of an
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: explainer for anyone listening to the podcast that wants to
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: make a submission, because making a submission to Parliament is
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: pretty scary. It's so we've just tried to step through
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: what happens, What do I need to do? Can I
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: do it in confidence? Do I have to be does
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: it have to be public? Those types of questions which
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: we've answered in our latest episode. We have had an
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: interview in the last week with a woman who has
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: claimed some really big offending happened to her in Tasmania
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: by a senior police officer, and that will be a
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: future episode.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Fantastic, Thanks mate, I appreciate your time today.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Good on you, Adam, Thanks mate.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Good That was Jay Walkerdin, the host and producer of
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Badge of Betrayal. It's available on pod shape. This is
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: a big moment in Tasmania's history. In my opinion, haven't
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: heard too much about our reaching inquiries into police in Tasmania.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: We've had them on the mainland, but I think this
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Paul Reynolds case is the moment where it's sort of
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a symbol of what has to happen every so often,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: every generation or so. There needs to be a full
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: clean out where police culture needs to be examined. Is
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: it still serving the public or is it serving itself.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: We saw the same thing in Victoria with the Lawyer
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: x Royal Commission, which sadly hasn't led to any real change,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: but it was a decent go Sometimes in terms of
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: reference are the real key. As Jay said, if you
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: want to make a submission, please do. I'll put the
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: link to the Parliamentary inquiry and also to the episodes
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: at Badge of Betrayal so you can work out how
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: to do that. But it also reach out to anyone
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: in Tasmania Police who wants to talk to me personally.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: I've got mates down there and I, as Jay said,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: it's only a few bad apples and ate the whole crew.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: They do pretty well down there as far as I'm concerned.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: But you can always reach out to me Adam Channer,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: writer at gmail dot com. If you ought to report
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: a crime, always call crime Stoppers first one hundred, tuple three,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: triple zero. You can't trust the police, and sometimes in
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Tasmania or other places.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: You can't, you can always email me. This has been
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: that in chan for real crime.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, Thanks for listening to this episode and
• 28:43
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• 28:47
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• 28:50
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• 28:53
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• 28:57
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• 29:00
  Speaker 3: your business in a podcast, there's a link to reach
• 29:02
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• 29:06
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