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What's a brownfield remediation project? · Stuff You Should Know

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  Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. Guess who's with me? And I'm Chuck Bryant.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: That's right and weird this stuff you should know? Team
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: that's right, the that lumpy finger NAILI Harry tep stuff
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: you should know Team We're a Tara Tomah. I know
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: you hate that though, just just consist of the same
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: things that I'm saying it for a one listener that
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: who's from Racking Up right now? Right? That's that's who
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  Speaker 1: That's for? Who's who is you? When you listen to
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  Speaker 1: your own podcast next week? I know you you? Yes? Okay,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: can we get on with this. Let's do this. Chuck, Hey, Josh,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: what's a brown field? That's so funny? You should ask Chuck.
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  Speaker 1: I know what a brownfield is, and it's even the
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: name of this podcast, so I will tell you as follows. Basically,
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  Speaker 1: a brown field is UM any abandoned industrial site, UM,
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  Speaker 1: A old dry cleaner's, an old gas station, any place
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  Speaker 1: where there's a potential for a local environmental contamination, but
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  Speaker 1: which necessarily proven to have contamination. Right, it can just
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  Speaker 1: be it can just be, uh, something that looks like it,
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  Speaker 1: or someone might suspect, um if there was a bunch
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  Speaker 1: of chemicals there at one point in time, um or
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  Speaker 1: over the years consistently, somebody could reasonably say, I'll bet
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  Speaker 1: that place is contaminated, which is not to be confused
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  Speaker 1: with a super fund. Really, you bust the super fund
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  Speaker 1: out this early. Let me redack that statement, now, go ahead,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: go ahead. Well, super Fun, Absolutely, it's contaminated. It is
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  Speaker 1: with serious, serious hazardous waste. Um. And actually I was
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: looking around on the e p AS website because you
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  Speaker 1: know that's what I do. And um, there's several super
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  Speaker 1: Fun sites slated for cleanup in Georgia, but I came
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  Speaker 1: across one that I knew you'd be particularly interested in.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Hit me your house, so I'm kidding. Um, there's you know,
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  Speaker 1: Robin's Air Force Base in Houston County. I think it's
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  Speaker 1: a little north of here. Um, I is Houston County
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: north of here? Okay, Well, anyway, Robin's Air Force Base
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  Speaker 1: is up there, and um, they have an old sludge
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  Speaker 1: pond and in the sixties and seventies, they said, you
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  Speaker 1: know what, we've got these old cans of paint, throw
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: them in the sludge pond. We have like all this trash,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: throw it in the sludge pod. So they kept throwing
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  Speaker 1: stuff in the sludge, old tires, and then finally, once
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  Speaker 1: the seventies rolled around and there was such thing as
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  Speaker 1: the E p A and Earth Day and all that,
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  Speaker 1: the Air Force and covered it up with five ft
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  Speaker 1: of loam. What's that It's like sandy silt, like real
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  Speaker 1: thick sand. So they made a beach. They just covered
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  Speaker 1: it over right, which actually again like yeah, it was
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  Speaker 1: a stupid thing to do, um, and now it's a
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  Speaker 1: super fun site to clean up all the loam in
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  Speaker 1: addition to everything else. Here's here's where it gets interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Why I think you'd be interested in it? And it's
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  Speaker 1: just a little sense just kind of crammed in there.
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  Speaker 1: They were like, yeah, there's like old chemical waste, there's
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  Speaker 1: old material waste, and also there's unexploded ordinance and agent orange.
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  Speaker 1: Really and there's agent orange and a sludge pond on
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  Speaker 1: Robin's Air Force basis. So this stuff was left over
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  Speaker 1: from Vietnam and they just dumped it there probably, yeah, yep.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's super fun sited a place where
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  Speaker 1: there's agent orange under five feet of loam, right, and
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  Speaker 1: it's seeping into the groundwater all that. Yeah, But like
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  Speaker 1: you said, these have been clearly identified. The government knows
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  Speaker 1: about them. They're doing their best to clean it up. Um. Actually,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if that last part is true, but
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  Speaker 1: they know about them, and at the very least they're
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  Speaker 1: going to the trouble of identifying them. Right. But a
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  Speaker 1: brown feels different. Like you said, it's a it's potentially contaminated,
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  Speaker 1: it could be contaminated. It's still a brown field, but
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  Speaker 1: it's not so contaminated or the materials that are that
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  Speaker 1: have contaminated it are so dangerous that you can't use
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  Speaker 1: the site. Again. Well, now, in fact, quite the opposite,
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  Speaker 1: they're trying to encourage the use of these sites. Right.
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  Speaker 1: And actually, Chuck, what what makes brown feel so interesting
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  Speaker 1: to me? Is there not just like an environmental hazard,
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  Speaker 1: they're an economic hazard as well, because usually, like let's say, um,
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  Speaker 1: you know we've talked about urban exploration before, right, there's
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  Speaker 1: all these old like abandoned industrial sites or something like that. Um,
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  Speaker 1: and they're just sitting there there being left or rot
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  Speaker 1: their derelict because no one wants to do anything with them.
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  Speaker 1: And the reason why is because there's so much potential liability. Like,
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  Speaker 1: let's say you or I got a wild hair and
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  Speaker 1: we wanted to invest in a new mixed use development.
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  Speaker 1: Sounds good, So we buy some old industrial site kind
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  Speaker 1: of on the edge of town. Heck, in the middle
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  Speaker 1: of town, right Atlantic Steel here in Atlanta. Yeah, Atlantic
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  Speaker 1: Station was a brownfield redevelopment remediation site. Um. So, so
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  Speaker 1: we buy this thing. Everything's hunky dory, and um we're
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  Speaker 1: starting to get some business. We've got some ten it's
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: in our buildings. There's people walking their dogs. I see
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  Speaker 1: some guy flying a kite. There's a cute little girl
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: with bows in her hair. She looks like she's going
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  Speaker 1: to the gap for the first time ever and pretty
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  Speaker 1: excited about it. Right. So uh and then bam, out
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  Speaker 1: of nowhere, somebody finds out that the groundwater under our
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  Speaker 1: site is contaminated old petroleum investors pull out, buddy, you
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  Speaker 1: better hope we have investors soon. Where at this point, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: if if it's all our money sunk into it, we're
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  Speaker 1: not only are we getting Um, you know sued, we're
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  Speaker 1: gonna lose all of our tenants were in big trouble, right,
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  Speaker 1: which is why people stay away from brownfield sites. But
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  Speaker 1: if we remediate brownfield sites, and we'll get into remediation
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  Speaker 1: in a second, if we if we remediate brownfield sites,
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  Speaker 1: not only do these old, you know, hulking, rotting derelic
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  Speaker 1: places get rebuilt, which is bad for urban explorers, but
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  Speaker 1: good for everybody else. It actually saves virgin tracts of land, woodland,
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  Speaker 1: other areas. It keeps green space out there. We don't
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  Speaker 1: have to develop green space exactly because we're reusing land
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  Speaker 1: rather than just abandoning, right. And that's one of the
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  Speaker 1: great things about brown field areas is that it's it's
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  Speaker 1: it's not, like you said, completely untouched. So what you've
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  Speaker 1: got probably in place of some infrastructure. You have waterlines,
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  Speaker 1: you have gas lines and stuff like that, any kind
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  Speaker 1: of line, any kind ofline, So, uh, that's awesome. It's
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  Speaker 1: not as expensive. No, it's not. In theory. You don't
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  Speaker 1: have to lay down that new infrastructure. You don't have
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  Speaker 1: to lay the pipe, so to speak. That's exactly right, Chuck.
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  Speaker 1: The infrastructure is already their pipes and all, you know,
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  Speaker 1: how many brown fields are in the United States estimated?
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  Speaker 1: I want to hear it, four hundred and fifty thousand.
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  Speaker 1: That's a lot of brown field site, it is. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's a lot of real estate it is. And um,
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  Speaker 1: what you were saying before that the fact that there's
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  Speaker 1: infrastructure there, there's buildings there. This makes brown field site
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  Speaker 1: it's real property, right And well that yeah, it means
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  Speaker 1: you get whatever is on the property. The buildings are yours,
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  Speaker 1: the mineral rights yours, it's all there for the taking. Okay, So,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: but if there's so much liability attached, right, how how
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: do you overcome this kind of thing? Well, what do
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: you mean, like, how do you clean it up? Well? No,
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  Speaker 1: I mean like, how do you attract people to brown
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  Speaker 1: field sites rather than you know, have them go cut
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  Speaker 1: down a bunch of trees and just build on land
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  Speaker 1: that they don't have to worry about is contaminated. Well,
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  Speaker 1: one way is with incentives, government incentives. And there's a
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  Speaker 1: ton of them, aren't they huns dude, Yeah, it's happening
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  Speaker 1: all over the place. Let's hear about them. Well. I
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  Speaker 1: went to the news section of Google to find out
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  Speaker 1: like the latest breaking news and they were literally a
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  Speaker 1: dozen stories on brownfield remediation, like this week, it's definitely
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  Speaker 1: picking up all over the place. And this is I
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  Speaker 1: should say. Brown field remediation has been like a viable alternative,
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  Speaker 1: or at least a government backed alternative, since I think
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  Speaker 1: the early to mid nineties. That's the impression I have you. Yes, Uh,
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  Speaker 1: Texas is getting two point two million dollars worth of
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  Speaker 1: funds nice to UH to remediate some of these brownfield
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  Speaker 1: from the Feds. Baal the more is has potentially more
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  Speaker 1: than one thousand contaminated properties. I can believe that. I
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  Speaker 1: went to Baltimore recently and I Hey, Baltimore, shouts out,
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  Speaker 1: but I can believe it. Okay, we love you, but boy,
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  Speaker 1: it's just like one big brownfield. And actually they have
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: this place remember Buckhead, And sort of I wasn't one
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  Speaker 1: big Buckhead guy, but yeah, they have a place there
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  Speaker 1: that is Buckhead. It's like a time machine. It's called
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  Speaker 1: the power Station Live and it looks like a remediated
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  Speaker 1: brownfield site. And it's crazy. It's like everybody just finished
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: watching the most recent episode of France. It's a Thursday
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  Speaker 1: night and now they're going out. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, So,
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  Speaker 1: getting back to the different projects, Maine is getting about
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  Speaker 1: six point one million bucks. I don't know much about
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  Speaker 1: mains brownfield situation. Well it's probably nicer looking, I would guess,
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  Speaker 1: but six point one million that's a lot of money
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  Speaker 1: considering Baltimore is only getting about four hundred thousand dollars.
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  Speaker 1: You know, that's the that's the problem with the allow
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  Speaker 1: one a half trillion dollars. Six million dollars seems like
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  Speaker 1: peanuts these days, it does, you know. Yeah, uh so Georgia,
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  Speaker 1: Actually it's happening right here to Governor Perdue has signed
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  Speaker 1: a bill which UM is going to help clean up
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  Speaker 1: six hundred polluted sits here in our own states. That's awesome. Yeah.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I got a friend that works in hazardous waste clean
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: up really. Yeah. He worked at Atlantic Station and when
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  Speaker 1: there's like a train derailment and spilled hazardous chemicals, he's
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: he's manages the site. A train derail to my neighborhood
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  Speaker 1: once when I was younger, but it just spilled grain.
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  Speaker 1: Well he practiced, well, I don't know, they usually kind
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  Speaker 1: of clean up any kind of derailment. Okay, Yeah, cool
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: stuff though, Yeah, that is very cool. So, yeah, like
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  Speaker 1: you were saying, there's a bunch of incentive programs. You're
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: just talking about the FEDS doling out money. Big time.
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  Speaker 1: States stole out money too. And one of the ways
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  Speaker 1: that they do it that's almost specifically for remediation projects
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: and and reuse projects is a text increment financing. Have
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: you heard about this? Yeah, go ahead, Okay. So basically
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: what the government does is, let's say it's a local
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: or state government. Um, they say, you know what, if
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: you remediate the site and you turn it into a
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  Speaker 1: big mixed use development, all the area around it, if
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: it's successful, is going to start attracting businesses. The real
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: estate values around this area are going to go up.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: If the real estate values go up and all these
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: businesses and condos and all that stuff goes out to um,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: we're going to start as a government, we're gonna start
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: making more money off of it's gonna increase our tax base.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: So we're going to help fund your brown field remediation
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  Speaker 1: and reuse project by giving you money based on what
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  Speaker 1: we think we can make in the future. Because you're
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: raising the tax value of the real estate in the area.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: It's a very cool idea. Well, and also they also
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  Speaker 1: give tax breaks UH to people that are doing this
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  Speaker 1: right sure for the cost of the cleanup, and they're
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: they're practically giving I think we should look into getting
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  Speaker 1: a brown field together. Seriously, we can build that gap.
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  Speaker 1: We can if we you know, we need some dough
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, not a bad idea. So Chuck, how do
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  Speaker 1: you remediate a brownfield? Well, the first thing you gotta do,
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  Speaker 1: my friend, is go out to the site, conduct an
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  Speaker 1: assessment from from some soil samples, look at what you're
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  Speaker 1: you know, get those tested, see what you're looking at,
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  Speaker 1: seeing just how contaminated it is, and um confirm what's
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  Speaker 1: there what's not there. And the e p A UH
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  Speaker 1: says that nearly one third of these sites are contamination free.
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  Speaker 1: So that's awesome. If you get lucky and picked the
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: right site, your your gold and UM. There is a
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: huge process involved, and there's actually a huge I guess
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  Speaker 1: sub construction industry probably related very closely to the demolition
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: industry UM that is engaged in remediating sites. And it
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: is huge, massive work depending on how, if if the
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: area is contaminated and what the pollutant is. Right, because
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: do you remember when we did our webcast and were
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: I think it was last week or whatever we were
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: talking about now is this week? Everything's blending together these days. Um,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: we were talking about, um, the lost nuclear bombs, Yes,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: missing bomb, and we're saying in Florence, South Carolina. There's
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: a sizeable chunk of Florence, South Carolina that's now in Savannah.
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  Speaker 1: What they did was remediate that site, right because the
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: bomb exploded, the T and T exploded, not the actual
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: nuclear part of it, thank goodness, but it was still
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: spewed contaminated metal and stuff all over the place, so
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: they scooped it up and shipped it to Savannah. That's
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  Speaker 1: exactly right. Um. So removing soil, contaminated soil, just actually
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: physically getting it out of there and storing it in
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: a safe place. That's remediation. UM. A lot of times
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: the water is tainted, so you have to remediate that.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And actually there's some pretty cool bacteria out there that
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: actually eat petroleum and converted into like harmless compounds. That's awesome. Yeah. Um,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: So there's all sorts of water treatment UM equipment that
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: you run it through and like this bacteria just eats
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the stuff and spits green water out the other end,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: you can plant vegetation. Certain vegetation will suck out the
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: chemicals from the ground. Trees actually, especially a lot of
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: invasive species of trees planted in a in a brown
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  Speaker 1: field area will just suck it up and then you
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: just remove the trees. Right, And they did say they
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: mentioned that covering it up can work to which was
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about the loan, but clearly not. You
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: can't cover up everything, you know, right, it depends on
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: what it is. And also, UM, the the the E
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: p A is starting to really kind of encourage green
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: brownfield remediation. Not your mind, that's actually yeah, that's totally different.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Green brown field remediation is basically remediation practices that we're
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: already using. But say throwing um some windmills on the
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: site to power the equipment you're using, you know, like
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: the the equipment that that UM that remediates the water
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: or decontaminates the water uses up a lot of energy.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Why not power with windmill or solar or something like that. UM,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: trying to use alternative fuels on the heavy machinery that
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: you're removing the top soil with stuff like that. So
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot going on, and I gotta
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: tell you where it was six billion people. Agriculture has
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: a carrying capacity of ten billion people. We're coming up
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: on that. I think some some predictions. Land is important,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: it's very important. We we need to start reusing it
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: rather than just you know, we are just such a
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: wasteful consumer, disposable society species even yeah, like, oh, that's
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: an old gas station, Let's build a new one across street.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Just let that one sit there. Yeah, And actually I
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: used to work in a town in a county down
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: south of here, and the mayor's brother owned a gas
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: station and he sold it to the city. Well it
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: turned out that the city, uh found out that there
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: was a h an underground storage tank for the gas
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: that had leaked and the the soil was contaminated, and
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: that was that. Nothing ever came of it. Yeah, there's
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: quite a few. I've seen some abandoned gas stations around
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: the Decatur. They've been there for years, like Kadzus swamped
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: and yeah, because no what he can do anything. Well,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: hopefully you know this this is changing, or I shouldn't
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: say no one can do anything with it. That kind
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: of contradicts our entire podcast. Right, let me say people
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: are afraid that they're not gonna be able to do
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: anything with that, right, But there's a lot of incentives,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of tax breaks, and a lot of money
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: being told out. So if you're a developer, man, I say,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: get on it. Yeah, I think we should get on
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: it too, right after Chuck, since we have nothing to
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: plug listener mail? Right, are we? There? Is that your setup?
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: That was it? Beautiful listener mail time? Josh Today, I'm
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: just gonna call this, uh, scary dreams of an impressionable
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: fifteen year old girl. Awesome fan man. So Shelby, who
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: says she's an impressionable fifteen year old girl wrote us.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: She says, guys, you have scared me out of my mind.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: I had an extremely vivid nightmare last night, and I
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: had way too much in common with your podcast. I
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: was a victim of a second holocaust in her dream,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: just her. I think you have to have more than
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: one person for a holocaust. We'll give her break. She's fifteen.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: The Disney Corporation was behind it, but I don't know
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: what their goal was and killing millions of people anyway.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: They started mass producing propaganda films and we're aiming to
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: rule the world and established Disneyism as a mandatory global religion.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: So I might say that's happening for real. I was
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: in a very large movie theater with one such film
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: being played, and at the end, a Disney rep announced
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: that the entire audience was going to die. The rest
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: of my dream consisted of me dodging bullets being fired
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: at me by various mascots inside of and doing forced
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: labor making parts for the Disneyland trains, which brought new
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: prisoners from the parking lot, and working on the Disneyland Railroad.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Savage beatings abounded. Awesome, This is so cool. All prisoners
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: had to be stamped on the forehead with one of
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: those re entry stamps, like they that smell like lemons,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: you know, like the amusement park. My number was D
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: three one seven four nine. I can't believe she remembers
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: on this well, the gates of the entrance of the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: park read work makes you the Happiest person on Earth,
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• 16:59
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  Speaker 1: end the park camp was liberated, but I don't know
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  Speaker 1: Camp I left beautiful. I'm sorry you were terrified, but
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