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Millenials and Gen Z are Ruining Bluegrass · The Flatpicking Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about how millennials have are ruining bluegrass guitar.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just like Diamonds and Applebee's, we have completely ruined Yes, we've completely ruined flat picking with our avocado toast and you know, entitlement.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: We feel entitled to uh Yeah, I had I had avocado toast at a festival one time and it really did kind of throw me for a loop.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was not the kind of bluegrass festival I was used to.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was a for a half a second I was like these these festivals are changing.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: This but no yeah, no.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let me guess they had a they had an uh you know an iced coffee truck there or something too, you know.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And oh man, and it maybe it is happening.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I did go to another festival and had like a nitro cold brew at the festival.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, this this coffee tastes good.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was made well.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this is all wrong.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: This should be horrible coffee.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're supposed to be able to like see through it and it's supposed to be served in a little styrofoam cup that like is this tall and spills over your hand, you know, like yep, exactly.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it costs a dollar.
• 1:15
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Where were we going with this?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: That we suck, I think, or something.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're ruining bluegrass.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, you made an interesting point yesterday that I thought was that was worth getting into because um I'm I'm kind of like wading into uh to all the different eras of bluegrass guitar and flat picking.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and most of the time that means I'm spending a lot of time looking backwards at uh, you know, the the the giants on whose shoulders uh people are now standing.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but there's this whole new group of of uh younger guitar players.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah younger meaning potentially even still older than us, but all the way all the way to much younger than us.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I'm curious uh, you know, what kind of trends are there between these different generations of of players and maybe who they were influenced by, because um, you know, depending on when you came up as a as a flat picker, there may have been a different name that was like the big name.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh this is something that I think about a lot in flat picking, just because you know, being YouTubers like we are, we hear things in the comments sections to certain videos on certain topics that we like to discuss.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it you know, and and as funny as as some of those negative comments are about like, oh, you know, flat pickers these days don't do this or aren't, you know, honoring this or whatever, you know.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um those are indicators, you know what I mean, uh, of like some perceived difference between generations and in in like a in like a real tangible way.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I I think I'm of the opinion where I'm gonna be a little more curious about those differences and just uh explore them as opposed to judge based upon them, you know what I mean?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but it is interesting, right?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I think we kind of have to go back to the topic of episode one where it's like, in my opinion, you know, this is I'll say it say it that way, in my opinion, Tony Rice is like the uh the the binding factor, at least for all modern flat pickers.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like, you know, um, like you said, I think it there's a before Tony and there's an after Tony, you know, and we're solidly in the after Tony time, and I and I think the after Tony has some pretty wild, crazy implications because if you think about Tony Rice, the like full guitar player that he was, a lot of people in the trad bluegrass scene, like folks that are I'm already gonna get into some of the generational stuff, but like folks that are maybe from like the mash generation, like the the like early 90s kind of generation of grass that came out right after listening to all that bluegrass album band stuff in the 80s, right?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yeah, sure.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's a certain brand of guitar player that comes out of that generation that, in my opinion, ignores a solid, I'll say 80% of Tony Rice's personality.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you sure listen to anything he talks about, he's like, I don't listen to bluegrass guitar players, I don't listen to guitar players in general, I listen to McCoy Tyner.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and I try to play my acoustic guitar like a jazz pianist would play.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, there's this like hugely progressive element of Tony Rice, and you can almost see, like we we we talked about this a little bit too, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you can see like the branch, the family tree like splitting um into multiple branches in the 80s, and MASH is one of them, you know what I mean?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like those the that's like probably the biggest branch that comes out of like the Tony kind of thing, and then but then there also is this like progressive, jazz influenced whatever kind of thing that also starts to I think incorporate other elements just because of the progressive nature of of that um that sound, and to me, that's where like I feel like more um millennials started to pick up on that kind of thing, you know.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really interesting.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: The most kind of cliche, you know, kind of complaint of modern bluegrass could be of a guitar player, would be like just kind of copying Tony or something like a Tony clone or something, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of the most clony rice.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard that that's a clony us as a slur, you know.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, it's like, okay, that's the kind of the most cliche thing you can do, I guess.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also kind of the most cliche thing you can accuse someone of, right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like, you know, we've we've talked about it enough that I don't really care if somebody is a uh Tony clone.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's whatever it is what it is.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it but so that's one of the the branches, certainly, is that is and and by that that usually like you're describing means like uh album band, not um unit of measure, you know, whatever, you know.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so there's so there's that, but but there's also these branches, which I find kind of interesting, of if you think about what kind of came post Bluegrass album band, um uh players that were uh self-described really influenced by Tony, um, but don't don't necessarily always sound like it, like Kenny Smith and Tim Stafford are kind of like the prime examples, you know.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was hoping we've got to be able to do that.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like so you think about Blue Highway and and Lonesome River Band and um really kind of like huge figures in what you would eventually call the mash thing, uh who spend so much time talking about Tony and like you know, Tim wrote the book or helped write the book and all this stuff, and then their their own playing.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell there are these kind of influences from Tony that are specifically not the classic licks.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's it's like some of the cross-picking stuff or some of the uh jazz influence stuff.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they have that certainly.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a branch of it where people do kind of go on there, certainly, but that's not the main um impact necessarily, especially on like the jam culture, I guess you could say.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so there is that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then like if you kind of follow that thread, I find it kind of interesting then to see the younger players that um you can see them kind of pick one almost, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can kind of tell somebody picked a certain era of Tony, or they picked Tim or you know, whatever it is as their kind of um, you know, North Star for the kind of playing that they want to do, all of which really does fit into the more modern like MASH thing, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or any kind of bluegrass.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly that all that all fits, which is kind of interesting.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh it's but but it's to your point, it's interesting that like post-Tony thing really means that there's a generation that like was maybe never expected to just play rhythm and like a certain kind of rhythm.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't surprise me that um, you know, you know, think about Larry Sparks, not just a rhythm player, absolutely a soloist, also, and a very unique soloist, like probably the most unique soloist.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when you think about his rhythm playing, you can tell that uh he was expected to play, for instance, a certain kind of rhythm in Ralph Stanley's band.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and so then what he decided to do afterwards was his business, but his the kind of expectation of what a guitar player should do was kind of different.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you think about kind of any of those guitar players, uh, you know, what the expectation was before being a soloist was such a you know, was a standard, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a certain emphasis on a certain kind of rhythm.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, post Tony is like certainly rhythm is it has the potential to be just as important, but rhythm becomes a completely different thing, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: You may never look at you may you may never say to be well rounded, I want to play rhythm as if I was in Ralph's band or something like that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: You may, but but you can get away with just copying Tony's rhythm and everyone will say that's bluegrass rhythm, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe maybe maybe not acknowledging that there's all these other options.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so there's that.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I think also one of the things I find I mean, this could be this could be the the rest of the episode if we wanted it to be, um, or if we're not careful.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: But like there's a uh before and after Tony, I'm noticing now there's a before and after Billy Strings.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, okay.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: We've arrived.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Have we delayed the inevitable enough that it's like you know, there couldn't possibly be a more significant uh bluegrass guitar thing.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, probably that's ever happened, you know, if we're talking about like number of eyes viewing bluegrass guitar.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: But but since Tony, this is the biggest influence that has existed on bluegrass guitar uh on like a new generation.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you think about it in terms of just like like like sheer scale, like Billy Strings is likely going to be at least for a while the most influential bluegrass flat picker to have existed, you know, and and just because of the sheer volume of feet people that he's been able to reach versus you know, I would I would argue that that's probably already greater than any previous guitarist before him, you know.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um Tony was never on buses and playing uh shows to like hundreds of thousands of people on a day-to-day basis, right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and and what's funny to Tony Rice unit coachella set with which oh I would have been there all front row, man, in my you know, like weird, sparkly, you know, outfit.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what's funny you bring that up now, and you know, we talked about this thing in the first episode that lineage is like a big thing here, because you know, because that is where the style comes from.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like Tony was a was a Clarence guy, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like Tony really idolized Clarence and that informed and developed his sound.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now if you think about Billy, obviously there's a Tony Rice influence in Billy Strings, like we said, you can't deny Tony's like kind of blanket influence on all guitar players that came after him.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But if you listen to Billy Strings and if you listen to him talk, uh that's not his main influence.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh usually Doc Watson is quoted as kind of the main influence, which I hear clear as day in his playing, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's interesting to me now that like almost like a a less represented branch of the family tree in previous generations is now like the main uh kind of brand of it.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like how American English usurped British English as like the the you know ubiquitous form of it or something like that.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: The standard, yeah, yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and just the same way that anyone, any detractors could say, like, that's not real English.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not, you know, it's like exactly it's not proper, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whatever argument you want to make, it's like, well, we're not really arguing right and wrong.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're just kind of saying this is sweeping, this is kind of taking over, it is what it is.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh God, there's so many examples of, you know, before we even talk about like there's so much we can say about um about his playing, and and we can make, you know, kind of qualitative judgments and say, yuck, yeah, this is awesome because I think a lot of what he does is really awesome.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But but you think about things that now that we're old, now that we're we're effectively we're unks.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, we're basically we're at we're done.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is this is it's kind of on on our way out.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I remember a time when I was whatever, when I was like 20, when I guess I knew about Billy Strings because he was you know, just like one of the people on the scene, just like around.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but certainly didn't have anyone who was like, well, I'm a I got into this because of Billy Strings, or I'm like a Billy Strings style, whatever.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now the number of people I meet who are going to college um to study bluegrass because they as a as a kid in middle school or high school found out about bluegrass through Billy Strings, like that's really common.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I played some tunes with a kid who was six or seven, right?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like just really young, but getting into playing guitar.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he knows everything Billy Strings plays, um, or he's he's working on learning it anyway.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, he knows um a bunch of Doc Watson stuff.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the impact that Billy has already had on and anyone, just to kind of like put that out there, just to say, like, Wow, you know, when I do Shady Grove, it's because of, you know, and so he was kind of working on Shady Grove in a way that really harkens back to specifically Doc Watson.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so we played for a little while, and the uh, you know, the kid didn't mention Tony Rice once, you know, there was no none of that is it even exists at at the moment.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um for certain people.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's it's really wild.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and now there's even now there's even people who are playing professionally who are kind of known on the scene, who I wouldn't say are like they didn't necessarily are, they're not like Billy Strings clones, but certainly they're like in that world, right?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like like Billy Strings was a strong influence on them when they were younger, and now they're kind of professional musicians following in those footsteps, which is not to say that they're not their own players, like certainly.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and influenced by other folks, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, certainly.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are bands, there are, I mean, well, one thing is it it's hard to say, like, okay, well, this band and this player, that's their whole thing, is is kind of following in the footsteps of Billy Strings because I don't know what their intentions are, but I will say from the opposite perspective, when I hear fans of Billy Strings talk about bands, you can tell which ones they identify as in that scene.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because when the when the Billy Strings fans, who are not necessarily bluegrass fans outside of that hear bluegrass, they don't necessarily care about things that don't really fit in that world.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones kind of selecting what that scene is.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so they'll say, you know, so they're really interested in Mountain Grass Unit, for instance.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: That was the first one off my yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of, you know, that's kind of the next in line.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: As far as a Billy Strings fan is concerned, that's kind of the one of the big ones, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or like Shadow Grass is another one.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um like this critical list building, totally, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, and it's again not to say what these bands identify themselves as, because like I know a lot of these people and and they have a lot of influences, and I don't think anyone it it it's it's made up to say that they consider themselves to be like, oh, I'm like a Billy String style, whatever.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not really what they're doing, but they do exist tangentially enough that the audience certainly perceives it that way.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like these are our people, like like Luke Black, come on in, bro.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: We like you totally, you know?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Which is yeah, Luke Black is such a fascinating um example because I mean, obviously, what an amazing player, but you know, when you hear Billy play and he's got his own thing going on, but there's that doc influence, and then you hear Luke playing and he's got his own thing going on, but there's so much more Tony than than uh Billy has.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: But the way Luke does it isn't in like a like we were talking about, like it's not the clony, the clony rice thing, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, Luke does it, but you can tell he's got the more of the um uh like Tony Rice unit stuff.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, Tony Rice unit, Mountain Grass unit, interesting.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's weird.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: But but it's cool because it's like you know, I kind of I'm I'm curious to see what happens when like these people that are becoming much more known, you know, like is for instance Luke Black going to um expose this new audience to Tony Rice in the way that Billy Strings did for Doc Watson.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like for for for folks who look at this as being like kind of a lopsided understanding of bluegrass to see Billy Strings and the Doc Watson thing and say, like, well, that's just one slice of the potential influences.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like for people who are making that complaint, which I hear all the time, it's not my complaint, but I hear it all the time.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe over time this is actually gonna even out as more people with a diverse, you know, influences come up and say, like, okay, well, uh, this is my thing that you're interested in, but my influences include Tony Rice and so whatever it is.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, maybe that, maybe that actually will kind of even out that in the kind of jam grass world.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, dude, I think you're right.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I like this idea of evening out because we live in the, you know, if we're if we're talking about like generational trends, you know, um the like millennials and in forward, like Gen Z and now Gen Alpha, you know, we're starting to see like Gen Alpha people like performing outlive, which is crazy, right?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are there are like five generations of bluegrass actively performing right now, which is nuts.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but in those like kind of generational like one of one of the things too is a technological divide, not just a before Tony Rice and after Tony Rice, but like we had access to literally everything, you know?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so meaning we could listen to all of that fringy stuff.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was also listening to Stanley Brothers and Flatten Scrubs with my dad in the truck, you know what I mean?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I guess what I'm getting at is like when you're talking about this evening out of style or like this balancing of style, like Cody Norris to me is like a huge like talk about someone who's like representing maybe more of that, like Larry Sparks, uh, you know, that like that like trad grass kind of guitar sound, you know what I mean?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Martin, yeah, exactly.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're starting to see even like representation from these things that were even during like Tony and the previous generations, like very niche, you know what I mean?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you had to be like super into bluegrass um to like kind of pick up on those little like stylistic differences, but but because of the internet, I mean you can be obsessed with Larry Sparks and only dive into Larry Sparks, you know what I mean, and do that thing just because of the access to information now, but then you you you know you're also gonna be the product of whatever other sounds come into your ears too, just like Bill Monroe was.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: If we want to talk about, you know, this is another topic for a podcast or whatever, but like the to me, Bill Monroe was one of the most progressive musicians of that era, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a traditional music at that point in time.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: He took some traditional stuff with some other sounds that he was hearing at that time, blues music, jazz music, you know, uh all that kind of stuff.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you can't deny that every generation is going to be a product of that too, you know, like um even with like Mountain Grass unit or like Shadow Grass specifically.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think with with those kind of bands, not just the like Tony Rice unit kind of influence, but for us, I don't know if you felt this way, but I feel like um like when I was in college, the like bands that like represented like our generation, I was like so obsessed with the infamous String Dusters and Punch Brothers, you know?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like those were like the millennial bands, you know what I mean?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: The string dusters were maybe more the like straight ahead version, you know what I mean?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Punch Brothers were obviously Punch Brothers, still are the Punch Brothers, right?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think uh you could I guess my point is that like now is like the only time where you could have seen any of this kind of stuff.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like there was no other world, yeah.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it's it all kind of all comes together um through that amount of access.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it always comes back a little bit to like you kind of have to let it proliferate the way it's going to, because as as it goes on, there's more and more history behind us.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so to kind of expect everyone to be aware of everything is a little bit unrealistic, obviously.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Except that we have access to everything.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it really is kind of picking and choosing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you can just tell that people just gravitate to the things that they gravitate towards.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So so you know, in theory, if somebody did want to be a complete encyclopedia of all flat picking for all time, you could do it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you could you have access to it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not gonna it's just not gonna actually happen.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the the what really happens is you have access to everything and you just get into what you know works for you or what you're what you're into, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it happens organically, right?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's funny.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the the Bill Monroe thing about him being a really progressive musician and and how the bluegrass isn't traditional music.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people forget that that uh bluegrass is not traditional music, it's uh played by musicians who play traditional music, like they grew up playing traditional music.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: They were you could you could have called them like old-time musicians.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh or you know, not you wouldn't at the time, but now before 1946, we who knows what they were going to be doing in the future, we would we would then consider them like old-time musicians or country musicians or whatever it is.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so all the things that they were doing were were, you know, you was folk music, certainly.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: But when they uh started calling it, you know, when when it when it became Blue Moon Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys, even before they referred to this as like bluegrass music per se, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like but what that band was on the radio and on um on the Opry and on the road, whatever it was, it was no longer traditional music.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: The music was about um it's kind of like the music was about traditional what what you might call like traditional life, or I don't want to say traditional values, but you know what I mean?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like the songs were about a certain lifestyle, which those people were no longer living, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like exactly you when Bill Monroe uh and and the Bluegrass Boys were now popular, they were no longer living the life that they were singing songs about.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Stanley brothers, the same thing.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: At a certain point, they were no longer living the life that those songs were about, and and which is the most common thing in like you know, uh country music.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's how that's there's nothing more country than that, is right singing about something that you haven't experienced ever or in a long time, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And probably never will again.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's okay because you're singing these songs maybe to people who are living that life still.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe the fans of this music are living that life still.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: But as it goes on, as time goes on, it's like, okay, we're all pretty removed from what these songs are about in a way, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we can connect with them emotionally.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: But then I think, I think bringing that all up, like you're right, it's it's important to recognize um not necessarily the the story that's being told in the music, uh, but what they were actually doing, right?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you get to choose what story you're telling.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what Bill Monroe actually was doing was very new and um uh not traditional.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I don't really look at um like a post-Tony world or a post Billy Strings world or whatever it is as being like um uh you know, are they I I really don't think about like, are they like honoring the tradition?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they kind of are incidentally because Billy Strings happens to love Doc Watson, but like that's no, like they're not on on honoring the tradition and that they're playing what other people played, they're kind of honoring the tradition and that they're playing whatever the hell they want to play, packaged in a story that really fits in the lineage, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: The story that these songs are, you know, like turmoil and the tinfoil, you know, whatever, is like sorry, I don't really know actually that many Billy Strings um uh song titles or lyrics, so so I have to go back to like the original most famous, you know, hit whatever.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: But but but it's true in a lot of them is like that story of that song fits really well into the lineage of country and bluegrass music, and I mean the the instrumentation does as well to a certain extent, but anything progressive about it is not really the thing that's pulling it away from from bluegrass or from whatever, it's like that's the most natural continuation of it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh, and that I think is then uh the fact that it has these universal qualities that fit within the lineage of country and bluegrass is great.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then the fact that it's happening in 2026 is what means that he has fans who are like younger than uh you know, 50.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so it's it's it's worth a look for for folks that that don't necessarily see it that way.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but for people who like us who are like in this world all the time, right?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're just like pretty much all we do is spend time thinking about bluegrass and playing bluegrass and with other people that play bluegrass.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like everyone I talk to in this world is like, yeah, this is all pretty obvious.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is all pretty normal, this is all natural.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is the way this is this is not surprising to people in in bluegrass uh who like live this this kind of life, you know.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It it reminds me of like, you know, I saw this uh post on Instagram come up the other day where it was quotes throughout history of every period of history, all the way back to like prehistoric times of older generations crapping on younger ones.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, totally.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the one thing that we can kind of like see as maybe ubiquitous amongst all this, too, is that the older generations inherently have a lesser understanding of what's going on with the newer generations because they're just like by default things that uh uh they can't see as a result of their place and time in the music.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not like that it's a a good or a bad thing that these new kids, you know, aren't doing it the way that you did, you know what I mean?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that like they're finding it their way, you know?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Which I'll I'll I'll I'll extend an olive branch to anyone who's hearing this and kind of like to, you know, as cliche as it is to say like kids these days, it's also the the cliche of like, okay, boomer, you know, yeah, now that's a that's a very dated reference now, too, obviously.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: But but but so that too can be cliche.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll extend the olive branch to anyone kind of feeling like that's what's being said is that like I actually consider myself in that category of like I'm I'm not planning on following um this particular brand of bluegrass, the jamgrass thing.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not like nothing that I'm saying is to imply that like, and that's why I'm starting my jamgrass band.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm actually I'm actually uh allowing myself to be left behind here because when it comes to um, you know, just say personally like the jamgrass thing or like the the types of concerts that these are, like, yeah, I'm I'm not going to an arena show with like the smoke machine and the lights.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's just I'm I'm not in that world and I'm not going there.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh but I'm happy to to kind of in a neutral way kind of um appreciate the parts that reach where I'm at, because plenty of it reaches me where I'm at, and I just let it be that, right?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so for anyone who's kind of like um, you know, don't worry, I'm not going anywhere.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're we're we're all gonna be fine where we are.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't it doesn't have to be for you.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not turns out stuff like that, it's not for me.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm not I'm not worried about it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: But and like you're saying, that's like a that's like a beautiful, healthy thing because guess what?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're not like you know the target audience, maybe for that kind of stuff, you know.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah, and and it may be like I think if anything, we're talking about how like in a in the modern kind of landscape of flat picking and bluegrass, you know, the wider world of bluegrass, there are so many choices to make that you can tailor all of it to fit your own personality, and like you said, meet you where you are, you know?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I exactly.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the the coolest part about the the time and place where we live, you know, because like I I spent yesterday, uh I listened to music for three hours just kind of in preparation to talk about this episode.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know we haven't listed a lot of specific people other than like Mountain Grass and Shadow Grass and you know some of these folks, but like I just wanted to get the sounds in my ears and see like what does this evoke versus like when I was 18 listening to my stuff, you know?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah because like what was I doing back then?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was listening to a lot of I loved flattened scrugs.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: There was like just a lot of trad flattened scrugs in my ears.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of Manzanita in my ears.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I wore that album out over and over and over again.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then I listened to Cadillac Sky, I listened to Infamous String Dusters, I listened to Punch Brothers, you know.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like all this stuff that I was doing.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And now, like you're saying, I'm I'm I'm listening to Mountain Grass Union, I'm listening to Shadow Grass, I'm listening to some of these bands like those guys, and just trying to think in my mind, like what would they have been listening to?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know, like can I hear those sounds and they're playing and can I use that?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking about the olive branch thing.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Can I use that as a point of relation and like kind of commonality to kind of just like understand what what the the folks that have come right after us are are kind of doing with the music?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um obviously there's some things like you said that we we're already irrelevant when it comes to that.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I but I think that there's you know, if if you ever go to a bluegrass festival or a jam session, there's a reason why you can get into a jam session with Kenny Smith, Jake Workman, you know, Luke Black, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like they like all of it just works.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about all these differences between generations, but there is this uh common thing that we all have.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: We just are coming at it from our own angle, you know?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it's it's um yeah, looking at those commonalities, I mean, uh all of these people, no matter what they're doing now, I mean, you you they all grew up going to festivals and jamming, and that's how they learned the songs that they needed to know in order to jam with people and whatever it was.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they there I think it's uh is it a Telluride documentary that they're working on right now?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I just saw a a little clip, and I think it was that like I think Gnome and Chris Theley, they met at Telluride, and that was kind of the like beginning of, you know, and it was like and Gnome just went, he wasn't even I think he said he wasn't even playing with anyone, he just went to hang out, and then they ended up jamming and so it's it's stuff like that that like you know um we spend so much more time uh together doing the same things than than whatever ends up being kind of like this kind of like creative output, right?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and and maybe this is a good place to to also talk about the the difference between like the the bluegrass community as it is like um when people are jamming together or they're like hanging out at festivals, making friends, all of that.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a certain percentage of the bluegrass community, a certain percent of it, it percentage of it is this commercial side of things, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of don't always concern myself with that when I'm thinking about like you know, people saying, like, is you know, what's the history, what's the future of bluegrass?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, are bluegrass festivals disappearing and like who's playing, you know, whatever it is is like I'm kind of really thinking more about my experience where I'm still going to festivals, hanging out with friends and jamming and whatever it is.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I don't really the the side of it where it's like, well, how does how is that reflected in the albums that people are releasing or the tickets that people are selling?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, that's actually, I feel like that's kind of a separate thing.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that doesn't actually have to to be a reflection of how the bluegrass community is doing because to me that's not the bluegrass community, that's bluegrass business.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, like that's which is which is something of its own that people can concern themselves with.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, the real impact is like, okay, you go to the bluegrass festival and you probably are gonna end up jamming a Billy Strings song now if you go.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: But outside of that, it's like you know, it's still all the same stuff that you're gonna experience, you know, in in the jam culture, I think.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I would agree with you.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I like that you brought up the fact this this whole like fear of stuff disappearing.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think I've heard this in the flat picking world too.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I have some like friends and and colleagues that are even like modern flat pickers, you know, and they start like grumbling and and doing all this kind of stuff.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think uh yeah, it it there is this kind of uh God, how do I want to formulate that thought?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is a piece you'll cut out anymore, I won't.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's about to get spicy, right?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but I think that like um you bring up the commercial health of bluegrass, and I think there's always this argument that stuff is dying or stuff is going away.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And are you are you familiar with uh here's where I get to are you familiar with play Plato's allegory of the cave?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, yes, I did go to high school, yes.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So like I think about this when I think about these these kind of arguments where it's like people are like in such disbelief, right, that like this this other thing could exist or that this other thing holds validity when I see it as a result of their just like what they've been shown in their own anecdotal experience in life.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of folks are like, oh, the festivals are dying because the two or three that they went to every summer are going away.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and I would say probably there is a trend of like festivals declining now, like the pandemic had an effect on that.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um people say that this is another thing that millennials have killed is just going out.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean, right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but but but that's the thing, like that you're only seeing uh those people are are what they have have been shown as their life's experience is kind of looking a certain way.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like like festivals are going on my hometown festival, the Musicians Against Childhood Cancer Festival in Columbus, Ohio, is no more.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: That was the biggest festival in the region, you know?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now it's gone.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: But do I think that uh bluegrass is dying or that like an interest in this is dying?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I had to choose between going to see John Mylander play with Bruce Hornsby last week or uh to see Bronwyn play in Columbus on the same night.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like it's happening.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be the festival thing.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: You might have to go to a club that you wouldn't normally go to, or you know, maybe people aren't just going to those gigs.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're live streaming Billy's arena shows at home, which is a huge thing these days, you know.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there there is this kind of like hidden um aspect for for like between generations, like each generation has its way of accessing bluegrass, and as that like avenue of access starts to fade and dissipate, people see that as the music itself is fading or dissipating.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: When in fact, like Billy and and the rest of the gang, you know, in in the like millennial Gen Z Gen Alpha Gener, we've got it.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay, guys.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like bluegrass is in good hands, it's not dying.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in fact, more people than ever are interested in it.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: We just may not be accessing it in the same way, I think.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I think it actually there instead of looking at it as a decline, um, maybe more like a transition, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're kind of between phases a little bit, because certainly now Billy Strings has has successfully reached a certain point, right?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that one artist can't sustain um a genre, obviously, right?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so that's a weird anomaly, is what it looks like at the moment, is like here's bluegrass, and then here's Billy Strings.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: What I see as the reality is like because sometimes people kind of equate like the IBM A world with like IBM A is bluegrass, which is not true.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: IBM A is an association that has all kinds of things, which is a very big part of the programming that you see that is bluegrass, obviously.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and therefore people kind of reference it a lot, and it seems like that's like the government of bluegrass, but it's not, it's just uh an association, and so um, so there's the IBM A world, and then there's Billy Strings being really, really famous.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like we said, now Mountain Grass Unit is getting a little more uh attention, Shadow Grass.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a couple bands that are Molly Tuttle, Molly Tuttle, yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Molly Tuttle Bronwyn now, for instance, yes, um, is like kind of rapidly uh, you know, and um well, and and this is what happens is same thing Shelby.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Shelby means um uh who was playing bass with Molly Tuttle in kind of the in the Golden Highway version of the band, right?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: So like, and this is what happened with Bill Monroe's band, where there was just Bill Monroe and Bluegrass Boys, and um then there was uh then there was Flatten Scrugs, and then uh Sonny Osborne was playing banjo with Bill Monroe for a while, and then there was the Osborne brothers.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Jimmy Martin was playing with Bill Monroe for a while, then there was Jimmy Martin, there was all these things, and then there was the Stanley brothers who never played with Bill Monroe in those early years, but they were like doing a bunch of his songs.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like that, but that took time, right?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: For a while, it was just Bill Monroe, and then eventually there was like these 10 bands, all there's this super strong connection to Bill Monroe, and then there was a scene, then there was an industry and a whatever, right?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can look at so many bands that had the exact same impact, like Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: The number of bands that came out of having played with Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver, like you know, Third Time Out and Blue Ridge, and like there's just it's it's a crazy long list of like every modern band you can think of has some connection to one of those legacy bands.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and we don't have that full, we don't have that fully realized yet, but it's already happening, right?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like um bands that are influenced by Billy Strings are becoming more popular, um, bands that have members, you know, this isn't happening with Billy Strings yet because uh it's the same band that it's been for like most of the, you know, there's been a couple changes, but like this has been the band for a while.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: But now that Molly has a new thing going on, members of her band are are doing all this different stuff and getting more popular.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: So like I think we're actually about to see a transition to a new version of like what the scene looks like, right?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and we're just waiting for for there to kind of reach us somewhat of an equilibrium, right?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's so lopsided right now with with the amount of you know um popularity that's that certain people have, but um, but I think it's gonna even out in a way that uh will then sustain a whole festival of those 10 bands that are gonna be a result of it.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that will exist and then that will become profitable enough that you can have those in various places.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, this probably still sounds horrifying to anyone who's like interested in their tiny hometown festival that only has like super traditional bluegrass.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I love those festivals so much.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and um, you know, yeah, a bunch of them that I have been to are are no longer there.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: But but if you're kind of interested in the long term, like what the community really is, like getting together with people and and jamming and hanging out, that's that's transitioning, is how I I look at that, you know.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's a good way of looking at it, and I'm excited for that next era.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh to see, I mean, it's already exciting to see, like you said, like Bronwyn and and all of these like former members of of these groups like like kind of breaking off on their own and having quite a bit of success.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Her album that just came out uh what was it last week is killer, you know?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Frank's on banjo and stuff.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I I think uh you're you're on to something good with that transition type of aspect.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the you know, we were we were we started this episode talking about like generational differences in flat picking, and we kind of zoomed out to this one.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think what we've actually figured out is like a generational commonality in that at the at the the kind of transition point of each generation, there's a lot of friction because the ones who had the kind of dominating uh cultural, you know, kind of like vibe uh start to see their waning relevance, and they see that as like like we were saying, like kind of a death of the style or a death of what they um saw as good.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I I see it like you're saying, like I like the the torch passing kind of analogy because all the you know, like I I I know we we know all of these people on the scene, Kenny Smith, you know, um Jake Workman, Cody Kilby.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've I've met a lot of these guys and they've been nothing but supportive and been like, you know, keep doing your thing, man, you know.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and I and I think that that's the thing, like in the lineage, in the actual music, the uh we love that.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that that's very celebrated, you know what I mean?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Kenny, he you know, he's one of those guys where like I'll I'll talk to him about a lick or something that I heard him play on something, and he'll stop and like workshop it with you know what I mean.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like yeah, so like I I think that's the thing that once again people are missing is this kind of intergenerational exchange that's happening.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: On that level, and um it's not a bad thing, nothing's dying, it's just changing, you know, it's always changing.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it was interesting to see um, you know, you see more and more evidence of it.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we posted the um the episode where we talked about the guitar player of the year, the nominees for that.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and some of the comments were like, you know, it we talked about this a little bit, so I kind of because I wanted to kind of get ahead of it and say, like, hey, by the way, the people who get nominated, they you have to be a member, and so people nominate and then they vote.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's the same list of people frequently, and and we kind of talked about that, right?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so if there's someone you think should be nominated, um they're not famous enough yet.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't know, I don't know how else to say it.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: It has nothing to do with their ability, they're just not famous enough.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, once they're famous enough, then they will be judged on on a scale of like, okay, well, now they're famous, are they also really good, right?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: But first you have to be famous, but you know, that's what I'll say.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh so but we got a lot of comments that were like, uh, you know, like, what about Kaiser George?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: What about Luke Black?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: What about it's all these things.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like not to say that I'm bringing this up so I can disagree with these people because I'm not.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, the their time will come because they're really, really great.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're just not like Brian Sutton famous at the moment.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but it was a it was a really good indicator of like where the audience is at because that wasn't unless it was their alt accounts, that wasn't Luke and Kaiser like promoting themselves.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: That was fans of those people, people who are probably guitar players themselves, who that's who they're into.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like we're already seeing this.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: If we're already knowing that the young people are interested in Billy Strings, like that actually has passed.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's already that's taken for granted that that's like if you're playing guitar right now, that's your influence.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're already reaching the point where now people like like Luke and Kaiser, for example, are the influence for like a new crop of people, right?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that's that's kind of the indicator to me of that transition already happening, that there's no longer just the one thing, right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's these different flavors people are choosing from that um you know uh that to me is an indicator of the potential health of the scene, is is that that yeah, that it's not just we all are just specifically Billy Strings fan.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's absolutely a whole family tree happening, you know.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I like the uh the idea that you're talking about this, you know, how all of this relates to awards and accolades and recognition in the scene.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I would say that like um we're just at the point right now where like our generation is starting to be like uh uh represented just as much as the Brian Sutton's and Cody Kilbys in the awards, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like you see Trey Hensley, Billy Strings, Molly Tuttle, like you see all these millennials in there now that maybe even five years ago it wasn't the case.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that kind of thing where like if you just wait five years, if I'm sure that Luke Black and Kaiser, they're gonna keep picking, their bands are on the way up, like in another five years, they're gonna graduate from that like momentum IBM Awards category to the the like big stage, you know, and and and that's not like a like we talked about before, I don't put much stock in that in terms of like the health of the scene or the validity of these people's playing or anything like that.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like what it is from a professional standpoint, you know, that's this organization's kind of like view and representation of the style.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the rest of us are just like commenting on the video like Luke Black, yeah, he's my favorite, you know?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, totally, totally.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, big time.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Big time.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: So so I think that's I don't know.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I just felt that was worth mentioning.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, yeah.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny too.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I remember um uh I I have a lot of friends who are deeply involved with IBM A, and uh, I've had some really great experiences there, and I love a lot of the they do a lot of really great amazing things and blah blah blah blah blah.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: I will say I had one uh funny um experience that I don't know, I wouldn't I I guess I'm not gonna say this is representative of IBMA.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's just um I was in a room at IBMA when this happened, is what I'll say.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a panel for um it was a panel where I was a bunch of different people who did really interesting things that kind of like got people interested in bluegrass basically, like um uh people that run venues or different programs, like nonprofit programs to get instruments to to kids in schools and stuff like that.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was on this because I'm teaching online, which is just like giving, you know, for all the stuff that that we do that just like uh gets bluegrass in front of people, the internet is a power to powerful tool.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was um kind of sharing my perspective on that.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the question was kind of like how do we get people interested in bluegrass?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so funny because uh there is such a block for some people where they they don't take Billy Strings into account for any of this because they don't they see it as an anomaly, they see it as like, well, that's unrelated, that's a whole other thing, that's not what this is, whatever it is, you know.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: So so you're they're kind of like, okay, well, what are all the different things we can do to get people interested in bluegrass?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a an admirable thing to try to strategically um share this really cool culture.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's that is totally admirable.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have the skill set to do that intentionally.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: I can only do what I do, and if people want to watch the videos, that's great.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: But so that's that that's kind of all I can do.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I did find it fascinating that that people were not bringing up the kind of like really organic way that the biggest artist playing bluegrass has the biggest audience, you know, uh seemingly without the help of of IBM A.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I brought it up.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, there's something to be said for the fact that like Billy Strings is um, you know, like you don't have to explain to a young person why Billy Strings is cool, you kind of have to explain to a young person why Dale McCurry is really cool.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can do that, then it's really worth it because Dale McCurry is one of the coolest people of all time, bar none.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it's worth at least examining that like Billy Strings isn't like, how am I going to get people into bluegrass?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's doing what he's doing, and it's the most successful thing that's ever happened to get people to know who Doc Watson is.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's the yep, no, no one's ever been more successful at that, even though it's not his goal, right?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if it was your goal to say, let's get people to know who Doc Watson is, that's the best thing you can possibly do.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is it that he's doing, right?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a more complicated thing than you can you can kind of break down if you want.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: But but outside of that, it was just really fascinating that like people were not willing to engage with that idea.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I did bring that up, when I did say, and this was a panel of people that had been to Leadership Bluegrass, and um, so in theory, people who are interested in this.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when I brought that up saying, like, hey, by the way, this kind of like effortlessly popular thing where the most famous bluegrass musician currently, and maybe I guess up by the numbers of all time, is playing Stanley Brothers at the biggest venues anyone's ever played Stanley Brothers at.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was kind of like, yeah, well, you know, we could do a smoke machine and light show if you want, but that's not really what we're it's like, you know, it's kind of interesting how like how how in what a massive way they missed the point of of what people find cool about that, right?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's that's not actually what people like about Billy Strings is the light show.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can go to a lot of shows that have a light show, um, but they're choosing this particular thing.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I will say uh there's an element of the scene, there's an element of the um community, and and and whatever's being propped up by people who feel this way, like whatever great festivals are happening about that people that feel this way are running, whatever events, stuff like that, it's like those will go away because if you're unwilling to engage with just the existence of this stuff, then then yeah, that probably will go away.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um, which is too bad because a lot of those things are great, you know.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: The a lot of the things that are being you know put on by those people are great.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just um if you're unwilling to engage with with that, then I think uh you just don't have a lot of avenues, right?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we're talking about things that aren't growing, it's like, yeah, that version of bluegrass isn't growing in the same way.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I don't know.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a that's a different thing, yeah.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: I th I agree with everything you said, and it's it's this we're back to this kind of like maybe it's not a generational thing because like pe younger people can ha harbor these views too, you know what I mean?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: That you're talking about, right?
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've definitely heard it, you know.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but it is kind of interesting that, like you said, if the goal, if the true goal was to put bluegrass and flat picking, you know, like in front of as many people as possible, and how do we get people interested?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do we do this?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hand them a Molly Tuttle and a Billy Strings record.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's in my opinion, that's literally the best thing you could do.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a tale as old as time.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said a minute ago.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: If if you want a young kid to be interested in something that you hold dear, don't give them the thing that you liked.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, meet meet them where they're at.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Meet them where they're at and kind of hijack them in.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, like the you know, I say this this is a true story, true as anything, man.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: I before I got into bluegrass with my family, my dad uh had given my sister, uh, who's seven years older than me, a copy of uh Johnson Mountain Boys Live at the schoolhouse, you know, which is like one of the most legendary bluegrass records of all time.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't listened to it, stop listening to this podcast right now and go listen to that.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I listened to that, I heard the first three notes of you know, let the whole world talk.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is the worst music I've ever heard in my entire life, and I never want to listen to this ever again, you know.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: And but then, like seriously, less than a year later, my guitar teacher gave me a mixed CD, you know, like a burnt mixed CD of stuff that he thought I would like in the bluegrass scene, and it was Black Mountain Rag, Doc Watson's Black Mountain Rag, uh Tony Rice's uh Blackberry Blossom, and a couple of these things, and I got fired up.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was like it was like, you know, that that was what lit the fire.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and like no joke, that gave my dad and I that point of relation to where, like, less less than two weeks after I got those records and was like, you know, like really stoked on them, I was listening to that Johnson Mountain Boy stuff again and appreciating it in a totally different way, you know.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I like I said, we started this conversation as like, you know, maybe generational differences and flat picking, but like I'm landing on this like, how do we steward the next generation and like make sure that that everything is healthy going forward and that we don't like have this catastrophic view of what's happening, like like Eli and I are saying, we recognize that our relevance is waning in this like way that we're talking about, but like I am so excited for Billy Strings and Molly Tuttle and the influence that they're having.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for Mountain Grass Unit, Shadow Grass, all these young bands that are out there like like putting it in front of people and doing it in a way that I never would have thought to do it.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's um so if if you are listening to this wondering how how can we get bluegrass and flat picking in front of more people, it's like, well, look up, do some research and see like who are young people that are into bluegrass, who are they listening to, you know?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, uh I know that's like an old dog new tricks kind of thing, but like I said, I I had to take three hours yesterday just to kind of almost play some ketchup and get plugged back into like what is happening now.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because like, you know, I'm just as likely to pull up a Cody Kilby record or uh, you know what I mean, like something that was from my, you know, uh early flat picking career.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: So totally, totally.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and that's interesting too, because you think about, you know, um, as much as I do agree that we are uh our relevance is waning, we're on our way out, we're um this is this is our farewell tour, you know?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: Although, although I say that and it's like a good another good indicator that bluegrass is doing fine, is that like we're actually getting more views and more subscribers.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's actually, you know, from from our perspective on a business end, it's like actually no, that that maybe that's a good indicator is that because things are still growing uh as far as we're concerned.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: So in that way, I'm actually not concerned.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of like, am I on the cutting edge of of uh of especially professionally bluegrass, like obviously not.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it is it is funny that you know, Hayes and I are still we're still professional musicians and we still make music.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if it if you're gonna take any sort of um uh cue from us about like how that's done or like how you kind of have your own personal interest in bluegrass that doesn't have to be following a certain wave of what's interesting, is like, well, all musicians kind of are still just doing their own thing anyway.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you can kind of do that as an audience member also.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, not that I'm about to release a record that's gonna be like, all right, well, uh, in opposition to the popularity of this other thing, you know, but it's like all you can ever do is your own um your own thing that you're interested in, whatever.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like in the same way that you know, Billy's um, you know, influences are whatever list, and Molly's influences are whatever other list and that kind of thing.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, we're kind of working from the same thing.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're actually uh working from the same era of stuff that we're interested in as they are, and we're gonna go in a different place with it, right?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, as an audience member, you're really still only ever doing the same thing, right?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're still only just like taking the things you're interested in and following that.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and it's like it's kind of what you make of it.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but I do think, you know, it's um it's interesting to be in a transition period where like I have listened to uh from the inception of Bluegrass and before, and you know, whatever, but let's just say we're starting at 1946 from that point on, and I'm kind of familiar with everything that's happened up until now that was ever popular, right?
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's not that I can play at all, uh obviously not a guitar, especially, but like let's look in the banjo world, you know, like I'm kind of familiar with all with the big the big names, I'm familiar with all the stuff they did, and I've make my choice about what I do and don't want to play, whatever it is.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to work on that and I get I get good at those things.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm familiar with it at least, right?
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, like, well, these are all the things that have kind of been done.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now I I do whatever I want with that.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of interesting to then be on the other side where like there's this transition period where now new things are happening where I'm not uh I actually don't know where that's all going.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so you kind of get to start over as a fan in a way.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I do, I kind of get to start over as a fan where it's like, well, actually, I I'm not super familiar with um uh all these players that are coming up.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what if they kind of blossom into this thing that I knew I now find inspiring in a new way, right?
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've I've already found all the inspiration from the past of Bluegrass, right?
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Unless there's some player I've never heard of, right?
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not that I've completed Bluegrass by any means, but it's like, okay, I know I know all the lineages, right?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's like we've we've hit a new point and it and it kind of blooms out again.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, actually now I've got a whole new like uh uh you know curriculum to to kind of investigate potentially.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like 10 years from now, I'm sure there'll be like it you kind of can't contain it, right?
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like now it's a couple players.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like for flat picking, let's say it's Billy and Molly and Luke and Kaiser, and and you know, like there's a much longer list than that on the colour.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Much longer, yeah.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: But but but you know, of the people we've mentioned already, but it's like five, 10 years, it's gonna be like 50 players uh that are like all really kind of equally worth checking out, and there's no way you can keep up with all of it.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's actually kind of nice to be left behind in a way.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's overwhelming.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like cool, this is great.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love to I love to check all this stuff out.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, not to say that we won't all be working on our own stuff too, but it's um, you know, I I kind of find it uh cool in that way.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because when people sit talk about, you know, like how do we get people interested in bluegrass?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of putting a cap on bluegrass and saying, like, how do we get people interested in the stuff that we already like that already exists?
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like, well, I I don't know if you're necessarily going to be able to market something that is over.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can market bluegrass as being like, I would like to get you interested in this.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, this is what it is, and it's not going beyond this, right?
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably not, you know, it's not it's not a finished product that you can market in that way.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you probably can't exclusively look back and say, you know, here's all the people you should like if you want to be interested in this thing, whatever.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's, you know, like you described, naturally you're going to get interested through whatever way you get interested, and then and then you kind of acquire the taste of all the other things, right?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't market it as a complete product.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: You have to say, like, look where we are now, look where this is going.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, um, and and you know, I don't think anybody I don't think anybody needs to try to get anyone interested in bluegrass.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, it's already happening.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: Bro, um, that's thank you for saying that.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for saying that because I guess that was the whole point of everything I was trying to talk about.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we are too verbose gentlemen, you know what I mean?
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which is I guess why we're doing a podcast.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: But like that, yes, yep.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: I it's so hard to like get people to I I feel and believe everything we're talking about right now.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I need to actively work to get people interested in bluegrass or or preserve anything or do whatever, you know.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like what what I hope is that just like my passion and enthusiasm for this might rub off on someone else.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not like I need desperately need this thing to survive.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's more just like I love this thing.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Both of us are YouTubers.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: We love sharing information about this with other people, and if that can serve someone, that's great.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever happens, happens.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's just like the nature of life.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh bluegrass is gonna be just fine.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: The kids have got it, folks.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: The kids have got it, you know, kids are gonna be all right.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that uh now that we've solved that once and for all, that uh that's gonna have to do it for this episode of the Flat Picking Podcast.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily I'm editing this so I can cut all that.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh love it.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Not anymore now that I've said all that.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, um, let us know actually in the comments, because there were a couple people that mentioned, you know, we we kind of recurrted the same names over and over in this in this podcast, but let us know who you're checking out, um, any of the new players you're listening to, because I'm sure that we're not aware of everyone we need to be aware of um that's out there on the scene.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but otherwise, Hayes, let them know where they can find you.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, come on over to my YouTube channel, like we talked about.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: Just type in Hayes Griffin, H-A-Y-E-S, G-R-I-F-F-I-N, or if you're interested in studying with me on a kind of a deeper, more personal level, you can head to HayesGriffin.club and sign up for my guitar club.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: Eli, what about you, bro?
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me as always at Eli Gilbert Guitar on YouTube, where I'm documenting my journey to become the next big jam grass star.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's my new dream, so that's what I'm doing.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: All right, now I really have to cut this off, folks.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: Check out uh everything on different social media platforms if you'd like to follow us.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: But uh otherwise, that'll do it for this episode of the Flat Picking Podcast.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: See ya.