Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #56: Interview with Diane Bergeron, Vice President, Engagement and International Affairs, CNIB

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #56: Interview with Diane Bergeron, Vice President, Engagement and International Affairs, CNIB · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
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invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
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Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
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insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been
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internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
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through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments.
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In November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian
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government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
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not just to sighted ones.
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And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to churn equal access into federal law and most recently on June 3rd,
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2022. I was extremely humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless
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commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday A practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
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policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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Diane Bergeron or Diane Bergeron, AKA Di.
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Welcome to my My Remarkable World commentary podcast.
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Diane Bergeron: Hello, Donna. Thanks for having me on.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Di I'll never forget the first day when we met in Ottawa when John Rafferty,
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the past CEO, invited us to be at a I think it was a meet the parliamentarians thing in
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Ottawa. We're meeting behind the speaker's chair,
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and there you are with your very pretty dog.
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And I'm trying to remember her name.
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Diane Bergeron: But that that was Lucy.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Was that Lucy?
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Diane Bergeron: That was Lucy.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I love Lucy. But that was the first day we met.
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And ever since then we have developed a good,
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solid friendship. You have been a great supporter to me,
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especially so when I was president of the Alliance for the Quality of Blind Canadians.
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We have maintained our friendship.
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We have served on several committees, advisory committees such as Elections Canada,
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and we did a panel together at the.
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Diane Bergeron: We did.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes we did. So let's get started.
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Diane Bergeron: That's good.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Siam for listeners meeting you for the first time.
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How did your early journey with a genetic eye condition ultimately becoming blind by your
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mid-thirties, and that decades as a guide dog handler shape your leadership style
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and the values that you carry into advocacy today?
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Diane Bergeron: You know, Donna, I have to say, you have always asked the hard questions.
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You know that, right?
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, darn, I try.
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Diane Bergeron: You know, so having RP retinitis pigmentosa, you know,
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it slowly deteriorated.
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I was diagnosed when I was five and of course,
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was sort of became totally blind in my mid 30s,
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as you said, I've been having the gradual deterioration.
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One of the things that that really stuck to me in my life experiences is that people see
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the world differently every day.
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And whether they see the world with their eyes or they experience the world with
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something else, the way that they experience their environment is different on a regular
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basis. And sight loss for one person, or blindness for one person,
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is not the same as blindness for another person.
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And we can't make the assumption that just because we've accommodated one person with
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with a visual impairment, it doesn't mean that we're accommodating
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everybody. So that was one of the things that always struck me as I gradually lost my
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sight, was that people would say, oh, well, I have,
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you know, when I, when I was reading large print,
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they say, oh, but we've got it here in Braille.
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And I'm like, perfect. I don't read Braille.
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It's like people think as soon as you're diagnosed with being,
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you know, on the path to being blind, that you suddenly know how to read this,
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these bumps and that it makes perfect sense, you know?
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Yes. And and so that was one of the things.
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And that's something I've always taken back to my advocacy work is that one,
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one solution does not fit all.
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And in fact, one solution doesn't even fit one person in different scenarios.
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So that's one of the things the guide dog aspect is interesting for me,
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because I learned a couple of things with guide dogs from an advocacy perspective.
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You know, I learned that you have to you have to have a thick skin and always be prepared.
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Excuse me, I always have to be prepared, especially if you're looking for some form of
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transportation going into certain places that that are,
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you know, often refuse access to guide dogs or any kind of service animal.
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I, I, You know, you've got to be ready to have a backup plan.
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You have to be ready to have all your information.
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You got to know what you're talking about.
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You have to be able to spew legislation which the average person doesn't have to do.
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Right. Most people don't go, you know, call a taxi.
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And when the taxi pulls up, you know, right away they get in and they go.
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They don't have to think about, okay, what city I'm in,
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what is this bylaw and is there, you know, what is the rules and the
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legislation in this province or you know, it's it's mind boggling.
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How much prepared you have to be just to go out and,
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and, you know, do these small things.
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I remember taking a vacation to the UK with my daughter when she was 13.
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And first we had a problem dealing with getting the dog accepted into the plane and
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blah, blah, blah. And then I finally took care of that. That took a few months.
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I finally took care of that.
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Then I sent an email to the tour bus company and said I was blind and I had a guide dog
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and they came back with, oh, you know, we can't accommodate that on
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our buses right now, blah, blah, blah. And my daughter read the email at
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13 and she goes, mom, we're not even in the country yet and you're
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already causing problems.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear.
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Diane Bergeron: And I'm like, I just want to go on vacation.
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This is not rocket science.
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I just want to go on vacation with my daughter.
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It was a mother daughter trip.
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And, you know, it just became an ordeal. So that was one of the things. But when it comes
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to leadership, the interesting thing I find with Guide Dogs is something that I learned
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is that a guide dog is guiding or potentially leading,
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but although they're in front and they're saying,
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go this way, you know, they're they're taking you where you need to
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go. It's actually the handler that is giving the direction to the dog.
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And so that has really taught me a lot about leadership in that somebody else might be
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walking forward, but there's often somebody behind that person giving them the direction
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that they need to go. And a leader can be the person that is behind the guide.
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It is also taught me to say to people, just because just because you're guiding
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doesn't mean you get to decide where we go, right?
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Like this is a joint thing, right.
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We work this out together and that's that's what I've taken into my leadership style.
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If you talk to any of the people that work with me,
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I tend to sit down. I go, this is the end destination,
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people. How are we going to get there?
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And everybody gets a say as to how to get there or this is,
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this is what we need to fix in the world.
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How how are where are we going to go to, you know,
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to get this fixed. And there could be a myriad of different possibilities,
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and together we work on what the end destination is going to look like.
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So I would say that's from from my guide dog perspective.
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That's what I learned the most.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now you've held roles with the city of Edmonton,
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Alberta Premier's Councils Council on the Status of Persons with disabilities and then
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National Leadership at Cnib.
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What through line connects those chapters?
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And what did each one teach you about moving systems,
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not just hearts.
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Diane Bergeron: So I started at my first municipal government was the City of Edmonton,
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as you said. I was just coming out of university.
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I had had worked in rehabilitation, what is now known as disability and Community
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Studies or Community services with group home situations in the past.
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Then I had my my sweet girl.
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And had my daughter and then had to, you know,
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get back to work. Re-educated by the time I was going back to work.
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I was a single mom. By then, my husband and I had split up.
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The group home type work is really shift work,
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which is not easy at any time.
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But having, you know, having to deal with childcare,
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with shift work on top of transportation issues because of,
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you know, buses not going out at certain times of the night and so on.
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I felt that I needed to go back to school, so I did I went back and I got management
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studies and so on, and I ended up getting a job working for the city of Edmonton.
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And and I actually got that job by accident.
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If that sounds kind of weird to say that now,
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but when I got that job I had been doing a little bit of research on on something
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completely different and came across this job advertisement for the City of Edmonton
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Advisory Board on Services for persons with disabilities.
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And I thought, oh, look, I have a disability.
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Maybe I should apply. And it was about advising City Council on on a from a,
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from a disability perspective on city bylaws,
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regulations, standards programs, policies, that type of thing.
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And and it was there was a board, an advisory board made up,
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made up of people with various disabilities.
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And this job was to go in and and work with that board to provide City of Edmonton advice
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on, on what they were doing around disability and so on.
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And I thought, that sounds very interesting.
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That sounds like it's, you know, right up my alley.
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And and so I applied on the job.
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Seriously, not even thinking I'd get the job.
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I wasn't even finished school yet.
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I still had a few months left, and then imagine my shock when they called
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and offered me the full time job and I'm like, but I'm not done school. I still have
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two months to go. And God bless the city.
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They they adopted my schedule so I could still go to school and finish up,
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and I and I got the job.
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And what it really fascinated me was learning the jurisdictional differences between
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municipal provincial, federal, international,
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regional, like, there's all these different kind of jurisdictions,
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and each different jurisdiction has different boundaries around it.
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And you know, sort of the, the how hard it was to get legislation
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through, regardless of what level government you're at.
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And but a regulation can get put through faster if you have the legislation to pin it
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on. And so there was you know, I learned all that stuff in that first few
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years with the city of Edmonton. It was a fantastic experience.
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Variance, but my jurisdiction was the City of Edmonton.
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And, you know, I really a lot of the stuff that I saw as being key areas of concern for
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people with disabilities was at a, at a different not I'm not going to say a
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higher level. I mean, we might want to call it a higher level of
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government, but a different level and different jurisdictions,
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you know, education, health care, that kind of stuff that had to be dealt with
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at the municipal or at the provincial level.
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So that's when the job came up at the Premier's Council.
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And I thought, well, that's perfect.
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It takes the experience and knowledge that I have from the city,
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but it gives me that different jurisdiction to work on these things that I,
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I would really like to work on.
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So I did that for a number of years.
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And and then it got to the point where I was realizing that sometimes when you work in
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government, you're you don't have the freedom to make a lot of the decisions that you want
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to make, because those decisions have to be made by either the higher bureaucracy or by
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the political realm. And you can't you're not an advocate at that point.
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You're an advisor, and you are giving that advice to those individuals,
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and they can take it or leave it.
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And if they choose to leave it, then you're not.
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That's the decision. And now you you implement their decision.
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And I was getting frustrated with implementing what I felt was not the right
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decision. And Cnib John Rafferty, as you mentioned before,
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called me up and said you know, we had met for coffee at one point and he
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said, I got a job you might be interested in.
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And suddenly I went, oh, I get to go and be at my the job they were
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offering me was national director of government relations and advocacy.
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And I'm like, oh, now I get to go not just deal with different levels of government,
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including, you know, the municipal, the provincial,
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the federal. There was some international. But I get to do it from the other side of the
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table. So now I get to show up at the table and I don't have to care about what the you
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know, what all of these other people think. I can show up and advocate and really,
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you know, speak my voice.
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And and when the answer comes back, no, I can go back and say,
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that's the wrong answer. Let's try again.
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Yeah. Which I couldn't do in government.
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So there was definitely that, that, that through piece of it was learning
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from the inside and then coming outside and going back and saying,
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now I know how everything works.
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Let me tell you what you're doing wrong.
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And I'm very good at telling people what they're doing wrong. My husband will tell you
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that for a fact.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You never told me that, though.
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Diane Bergeron: No, I haven't had to do that yet.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Not yet. Oh, boy. So today you serve as Caleb's head of international
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partnerships. From my seat, as a fellow advocate,
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I'm curious, what does international partnerships actually look like day to day,
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and how do you decide which collaborations will deliver the greatest impact for blind
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communities?
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Diane Bergeron: So the the department, international partnerships department,
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you know, I've been I've been connected to international since I started with Cnib
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through the World Blind Union and through some other international collaborations.
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But We decided it was always off the side of my desk.
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It was always kind of a piece of the other work that I was doing.
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And then in December Angela Bonfante had become the president CEO of Cnib,
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and she asked me to step away.
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At that time, I was running the guide dog program,
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and she asked me to step away from guide dogs and create this new international
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partnerships department and the whole purpose of the department,
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she said, I want you to develop a strategy and the whole thing.
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So we kind of came down to when we were looking at what needs to be done from an
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international perspective. We came down to three key areas.
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One is what is being done around the world, in other organizations or in other countries
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that we can bring back to Canada and help benefit Canadians who are blind or partially
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sighted or deafblind. So that could be a program that somebody is doing in another
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country, at country, at another blindness organization that we.
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Why? Why should we reinvent the wheel if they're doing a great job at it?
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Let's talk to them and see if we can use their you know,
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their, their template and bring that forward and then tweak it for the Canadian you know,
19:50
the Canadian context. And the other piece of that is what do we have in,
19:58
in Canada that other countries don't have in,
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you know, so if you think about employment, for example,
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you know, we have our Come to Work program.
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There's organizations in other countries that are looking at their own employment programs.
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And so they're like, well, that sounds like that's doing quite well.
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And we just yeah, here's here's the the structure,
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the strategy, here's how to set it up.
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And, and you know, there's not this proprietary perspective.
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We're just sharing information and literally handing over the keys to our program.
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And then other organizations take that and, and create you know,
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create their own added to that piece.
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And this is all the first one, which is all like working on this,
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how to build these programs is sometimes we'll work with more than,
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you know, one or 2 or 3 organizations where we come together and say,
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what's really needed is this, but it doesn't exist.
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So let's the two or 3 or 4 of our organizations sit down and figure out
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together, based on all the history and information that we have as a collective,
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how to create that one program or one thing to,
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to make lives better in all of our countries.
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So that's sort of that partnership piece there.
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The second big component is standards international standards and national
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standards. So many times Canada creates their own standards.
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And then sometimes they get shared internationally,
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sometimes they don't. So part of my job was to look at what are we doing.
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Well. And when it comes to standards and and Canada,
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the other part is, is sometimes there's international standards that are out there
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that Canada is not adopting.
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So making sure that the standards go in both directions.
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So that was another piece.
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And the last piece is social corporate responsibility looking what's happening in
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the global South and looking at developing countries.
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And how can we as an organization and as a country who has knowledge and resources,
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how can we assist in helping to build capacity in those other in those other
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countries? So that was created, you know, that was the purpose of the
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department which says a whole lot about what we want to do.
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But day to day, I could be talking about the Marrakesh treaty on Monday morning with an on
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a zoom call. And Monday afternoon I'm off to meet with a member of Parliament to talk
22:47
about a youth internship and international youth internship program.
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And then I might have to get up in the middle of the night to participate in a zoom call
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with somebody and I don't know, India about employment programs and how we
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might be able to help them with theirs.
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So it just it it's not a 9 to 5 job.
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It's not a, it's not a sit behind your desk.
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Sometimes you need to travel and and a lot of people think traveling internationally is
23:21
this really exciting thing.
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And it is for about the first six months.
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And then it's exhausting because you get on a plane and you land and you change in the
23:30
airport and you go to meetings, and then you get back on a plane and you come
23:33
home. So, you know, depending on where you're going and what you're doing,
23:38
sometimes you're there for a few days, but you really get to see the airport and the
23:42
hotel and then the airport again.
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So it's it's it sounds jet setting sounds very glamorous,
23:48
but it it isn't always sometimes it's fun and you get to do a little side trip or
23:52
something, but definitely it's it's a lot of time zone changes.
23:58
It's strategic travel because you only want to use money to travel when you know that
24:03
you're going to be able to strategically do some good.
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And then and it's really looking at what, what is our like giving the goals and the
24:14
information I've given you on what our department does.
24:17
Then it's matching that to what other people are doing.
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So I'm not going to partner with somebody with with an organization that does not that
24:26
does not align with the, you know, the values and,
24:29
and, and direction of what we are doing.
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So it all depends on, on what they're doing.
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But it typically that's where I go back to my,
24:41
my plan. And I go, does it fit in with this plan.
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And if it does is it meeting the the values of the organization.
24:48
And quite honestly, it honestly Donna, there's a lot of it that is intuition where
24:52
you sit back and go, you know, we haven't talked about this at Cnib,
24:56
but this is a really innovative thing and I think it could benefit some people.
25:00
And then I just go and find the people and get backing.
25:03
So yeah.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember a funny story you told me once, I think it was Lucy who used to take the
25:10
socks out of your suitcase.
25:13
Diane Bergeron: Yes.
25:14
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember that.
25:16
Diane Bergeron: When I was packing.
25:18
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
25:19
Diane Bergeron: Yeah, she's. She used to take my socks out.
25:22
Well, anything she could get her mouth on, actually any kind of garment that she could.
25:27
If if she could get her mouth on it, she would unpack what I was packing and often
25:31
replace it with dog toys.
25:34
So if the dog toys were in there, like that was kind of the thing I had to make
25:39
sure was there. It was almost like she was saying, if there's no dog toys, it means
25:43
you're traveling without me and you're not allowed to go. And if you're traveling with
25:47
me, there better be dog toys in there to keep me occupied.
25:51
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What a dog.
25:52
Diane Bergeron: Yeah, yeah, she was a character, that's for sure.
25:56
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Now, I believe that you were at one time a table officer at the World Blind
26:05
Union, plus the treasurer, plus chairing the women's committee and the
26:13
finance committee. How do those roles give you a global dashboard on what's working and
26:23
what's failing for blind people across regions.
26:29
Diane Bergeron: Yeah. So the world blind union, just for anybody who doesn't know,
26:33
the World Blind Union is a coalition of sorts of organizations around the world,
26:39
oven for Blind People.
26:41
And it's separated into six regions North America,
26:44
Caribbean, Europe, Asia Pacific, Asia, Africa and Latin America.
26:52
And so and each of those regions have a set of officers.
27:00
And so the president of each of those regions makes up the table and makes up the officers.
27:07
And the table officers are a global it's a global position.
27:11
So it's the president, past president, president,
27:15
first and second vice presidents, treasurer and secretary general.
27:20
The table officer position is a global position.
27:23
Once you become a table officer, you no longer represent your country or your
27:28
region.
27:29
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
27:31
Diane Bergeron: So when you sit at that table, you can't think about what's right for
27:34
Canada. You have to think about or not even what's right.
27:38
You know what's right for North America, Caribbean region.
27:42
You have to think about the global perspective.
27:44
So you get to sit amongst representatives, representatives from every region,
27:51
and they bring to the table some of their concerns and so on.
27:55
And as treasurer. First and foremost, you know,
27:59
I dealt with looking at the finances, the finances of the of the organization,
28:06
but that meant that I also had to work with the secretary general to look at the finances
28:12
of all the different members that were looking for sponsorships.
28:15
You've got a good understanding of sort of where the various countries were at when it
28:23
came to their global positioning, financial positioning.
28:28
But and it was often fascinating to me that you could have a country that would be a mid
28:33
to high level financial country.
28:36
But the organization serving people who are blind or partially sighted would actually be
28:41
looking for a subsidy because they get absolutely zero assistance from from
28:45
government. And the, you know, a lot of a good example of that would be some
28:51
of the countries in the Caribbean, you know,
28:53
they've got high income or mid to high income country because their their basis is tourism.
29:00
But none of that tourism, none of those tourism dollars trickles down
29:05
to the organization serving people who are blind or partially sighted or who are of
29:09
people who are blind or partially sighted. So it gave you an understanding of some of the
29:15
financial situations. I was also before I became chair of the Women's Committee.
29:21
For many years I was chair of the Youth Youth Engagement Leadership Committee,
29:26
and that also gave me some great perspectives on what are the newer things coming.
29:32
You know, what are younger people thinking coming from the different regions because
29:36
there was representation from each different region.
29:40
And often, of course, those committee members were also girls or
29:47
women. And so it crossed over with the women's the Women's Committee which of
29:53
course, then also gave me that perspective of the difference of being a woman in Canada as
30:01
opposed to a woman in a rural area of a developing country.
30:09
And and it's, it's it was always fascinating to me that,
30:17
you know, we as women in Canada, we have.
30:20
We still face the glass ceiling.
30:22
Not as much as we used to, but it's still there.
30:25
We still face equality issues, but when you compare that to the situation
30:32
for women in you know, countries where they are suppressed and they
30:37
are not treated equally, it's very difficult to to to get your,
30:43
your head around it. And so I became quite fascinated about looking at how do we how do
30:51
we try to fight against suppression of women and,
30:58
and violence against women in certain areas and regions of the world.
31:03
And how do we work with UN treaties and other and various organizations to try and combat
31:10
this? So it was it was it's always been a fascination of mine around women.
31:15
But then this particular Her role gave me an opportunity to see those differences up close
31:21
and personal.
31:23
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've had a priceless education that many would envy.
31:27
I'm telling you, priceless.
31:31
Diane Bergeron: Yeah. It's been it's been a it's been a fascinating experience,
31:34
that's for sure.
31:36
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You can write a book.
31:38
Diane Bergeron: That'll be my next one, right?
31:40
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Now, you and I both care deeply about accessible voting and the right to a
31:50
truly secret ballot from your work.
31:54
Engaging, engaging Elections Canada and Parliament.
32:00
What are the most practical next steps Canada should take to pilot and scale accessible
32:10
electronic voting securely?
32:15
Diane Bergeron: So number one. We got to get rid of this paper ballot.
32:19
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes.
32:20
Diane Bergeron: That's just number one, right?
32:22
It can't be that the paper ballot works for all these people.
32:26
And part of the problem is, is that we're looking at this from an
32:29
accommodation perspective.
32:31
Right. My viewpoint is, is that the paper ballot is actually an
32:36
accommodation for sighted people.
32:38
It is useless to the rest of us.
32:39
And if all the ballots were Braille, it would be useless to the sighted people.
32:43
So regardless of how it is, it's an accommodation for somebody.
32:46
And in that case, it's an accommodation for people who can see or as I tend to call them,
32:52
the retinol dependents of the world.
32:56
And so we keep thinking about it as though we have to create this different system for
33:02
people who have who are blind or partially sighted or deaf.
33:06
And my statement to and I've said this and you heard me say this so many times.
33:12
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: With.
33:12
Diane Bergeron: Elections Canada is, you know, we need to stop with the paper ballot.
33:17
We need to come up with a secure system that can accommodate everybody at the polling
33:23
stations. And it needs to be done so that I can walk into.
33:27
And you can walk into a polling station and vote like everybody else without having to
33:32
get assistance. We can check that we voted properly.
33:35
There's so many ways we can do this.
33:36
We can do it in secret.
33:37
For those of us who who are you know, who can use audio,
33:42
we can we can plug in a headphone and listen to it.
33:45
For those people who need Braille, they can plug in a Braille display.
33:48
There's all sorts of ways that we can make this accessible.
33:51
But the first and foremost thing is the legislation that regulates the ballot needs
33:57
to provide opportunities that the the government,
34:00
from a political standpoint, need to give Elections Canada the freedom to
34:07
make it happen. But they're so afraid of it for some reason.
34:12
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wonder why.
34:14
Diane Bergeron: You know, they're just terrified of giving this. All the things can be tampered with and
34:18
everything else. Well, yeah, they can, but at the same time,
34:21
paper can be tampered with, too.
34:23
So, you know, we need to create the system from the ground up,
34:28
and you can you can do that.
34:31
You can do that without changing the legislation just to try it out and create the
34:35
system. The problem is they're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
34:42
They're trying to create something that works with the paper ballot and that works with the
34:46
legislation. My argument is they should forget about the legislation off to the side,
34:52
come up with the system, fix the problem, and then change the
34:55
legislation. And the solution is there.
34:59
That's what I think they need to do.
35:04
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do you say to skeptics who argue that assistive help at the polling station is good
35:12
enough. How do you explain, succinctly but persuasively,
35:19
why privacy and independence at the ballot box or civil rights are not conveniences.
35:31
Diane Bergeron: So when I have when I, when I'm voting and I need to use somebody,
35:38
they I always tell them that this is not this is not good enough.
35:42
This is absolutely not good enough.
35:45
How do I know that person's going to mark the ballot the way I want them to mark it?
35:50
How do I know that if they did that, that they would keep my decisions secret?
35:55
How do I check to make sure that they didn't accidentally spoil my ballot?
36:01
There's no way for me to confirm any of that.
36:04
And their answer to me is always that person takes an oath to to keep it secret,
36:11
to market the way you know that you want them to.
36:14
And I always remind them that my ex-husband also took an oath at one time.
36:19
And with the divorce rate in this country, that should tell people how much they should
36:23
trust this stranger that they don't know to take an oath.
36:28
It is unacceptable. It is.
36:30
It is. It is not, in my opinion, based on a human rights perspective.
36:37
Every Canadian, according to my what I've always learned in this country is every
36:41
Canadian has the has the right to vote independently and in secret.
36:47
Unless of course, you're blind.
36:48
Then apparently that doesn't matter, because we get this person that we don't even
36:52
know and we're supposed to trust them.
36:54
So if I can't trust the person I'm marrying, I certainly cannot trust this perfect
36:59
stranger.
37:01
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I love that analogy, but it's true.
37:06
I mean, you know, somehow they don't understand that in the case of a blind or
37:11
sight impaired person, privacy is so important.
37:15
What do we do? What do we do to convince them?
37:19
How can we?
37:21
Diane Bergeron: I don't know, Donna. You and I have been at it for what now? Like 15 years?
37:27
Yeah.
37:27
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.
37:30
Diane Bergeron: I would like to say, though, I do think that Elections Canada does try.
37:34
I think that they do. They do a lot of innovative things.
37:40
And they keep trying to, to fit that square peg in.
37:43
But until the government says go off to the side,
37:46
figure this out and come back to us with this perfect system,
37:50
and then we'll change the legislation.
37:52
It's not I don't think it's going to go anywhere.
37:54
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Now, you let Cnib guide dogs and now help drive its growth for business
38:05
owners, transit agencies These and hospitality listener leaders listening.
38:13
What are the top access mistakes you still see with working teams?
38:20
And what's the quick start playbook to fix them?
38:27
Diane Bergeron: Wow. You know, there's this assumption that a dog is a dog is a dog,
38:33
and that's not true. I think that it's important for,
38:37
for any customer facing business to understand that the dogs that that are chosen
38:46
to be guide dogs are they're not just chosen.
38:49
We don't go. You know, we don't go down to the pound and pick a dog
38:52
and go, okay, we're going to slap a harness on it and go somewhere.
38:56
These dogs are bred specifically using genetic information to get the best possible
39:05
outcomes. We look at behavior.
39:07
We look at health, we look at temperament, we look at trainability.
39:12
There's so many things that we think about.
39:14
And I've learned so much around canine genetics.
39:18
I did not know that a dog's comfort level walking up and down stairs is actually
39:24
actually baked into their DNA.
39:27
So if we if we have dogs that are not comfortable on stairs,
39:31
you often see it in in the majority of the litter.
39:34
And so we won't use any of those dogs when it comes to looking at breeding and so on,
39:40
because we want to make sure that that's not there.
39:42
So, you know, you have to make sure that that dog is the creme de la creme of dogs and the
39:50
trainability and and so on and so forth.
39:52
So these dogs are, are the, the perfection of these dogs,
39:58
if you want to call it that starts before they're even conceived.
40:03
Because we look at the, we look at these dogs from five generations
40:08
back to see the history we look at, like there is a world registry of information
40:17
about genetics on service dogs.
40:21
And so there's all sorts of information.
40:25
And then you and then you have geneticists that are working on,
40:29
you know, you have a dog, you want a dog that has confidence and,
40:33
and and has drive, but you want them to be quiet and,
40:37
and at the same time. And so if you have a dog,
40:40
that's for example, you have a dog that's got a little bit too much energy.
40:44
You probably want to breed that dog to a dog that's, you know, fairly lazy and doesn't
40:47
want to move that much. And hopefully the puppies in between will come out with that,
40:52
that middle ground. So there's a lot of genetics and research.
40:57
And I would say science that goes into that, you know,
41:01
those puppies. And then right from day one.
41:05
Those dogs are they're interacted with in very specific ways and monitored and tested
41:14
for their right up, like, before they even leave their mom at eight
41:18
weeks old. There's lots of checks to see how that dog is interacting and and what it's
41:23
doing. And then they go off with the puppy raisers who are very specifically working
41:28
with those dogs. So this is a big cycle of getting that dog prepared.
41:33
And in the long run, the dog comes back from their puppy raiser,
41:36
goes through training, and eventually is matched very specifically
41:40
with the handler. It's not just any dog for any handler,
41:44
it's a specific dog for a specific handler so that the match,
41:48
you know, the team can be successful.
41:51
And even at that point, the success rate of the dogs going through
41:55
the program is only 40%.
41:58
So that person and that dog walking into their business and to their taxi service or
42:05
whatever, rideshare or, you know, restaurant,
42:08
whatever it is, they're walking in with a dog that has made it to the top.
42:14
We didn't just send them the dog with an instruction manual and said,
42:17
here's how you work your dog.
42:19
There is training with that.
42:21
Each specific dog and that person puts in a lot of work into that dog.
42:26
So that dog is coming into your business.
42:30
There's been a massive investment into that dog and the handler.
42:35
So the dog coming in is probably better behaved than the majority of the humans
42:39
coming into your business, because I don't know any human that goes in
42:43
there that before they were even conceived, their parents sat down and said,
42:47
let's look at five generations back to see what kind of match we're going to have.
42:53
You know, this is something that is very scientific.
42:56
And so, so I, I really think that what the business owners need to know is the dog
43:02
that's coming in is specialized in doing a job.
43:07
It's creating independence and freedom for that individual so that they can have the
43:13
life they choose, that they want to have and do what they want to do.
43:16
And by refusing the dog and this is people say this to me,
43:19
I'm not refusing. I'm not refusing you.
43:22
I'm refusing your dog.
43:23
And I've often said my dog did not call for a taxi.
43:27
She's not allowed to use the phone.
43:30
So it's me if you refuse the dog, you're refusing me.
43:34
We are a unit. This is a human rights issue.
43:37
And so understanding that that dog and that person is connected.
43:42
You can't say I'm refusing the dog because refusing the dog is refusing me service.
43:47
And that is discrimination, plain and simple.
43:50
So I think people need to train their staff to understand that that person has the right
43:56
to be accompanied by their dog.
43:58
I also think they need to understand that they have rights.
44:03
The handler of the dog needs to keep that dog under control and behaving appropriately.
44:08
And they do have the right if the dog is acting inappropriately.
44:12
And I mean, if the dog's, you know, stealing the stake off the
44:15
neighbor's table. They do have the right to ask the person to take their dog and leave,
44:21
because if I stole the stake off the neighbor's table,
44:24
they would ask me to leave.
44:26
So, you know, they do have rights themselves.
44:29
But just for being. Just for for being accompanied by a guide dog.
44:34
It's against the law. And I recommend you don't do it.
44:39
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess I just learned something very interesting about,
44:42
you know, how guide dogs are developed, and they were all about their genetics and,
44:46
you know, wow, I didn't know this before now.
44:50
Diane Bergeron: Oh, yeah. It's this is this is it's a big process.
44:54
And I think people think we just, you know, the dog falls out of the sky with a
44:58
harness on and we grab it and walk away and hope for the best.
45:01
This is huge. It's a huge process.
45:07
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to wind down, but I wanted to ask you this question.
45:11
Many countries are facing guide dog shortages,
45:16
and Cnib launched a puppy development center in Ontario and forged cross-border
45:25
partnerships with the US schools.
45:30
What did it take to stand that up and what matrix?
45:37
Wait times, graduation rates, you know, retention tell you that the system
45:44
is improving.
45:48
Diane Bergeron: Well, you know, I would say that first of all,
45:53
you have to have partnerships in this in this space a breeding program is like a colony.
46:01
And if you stick with your own colony, eventually you'll end up with too much of the
46:06
inbreeding you'll end up with.
46:08
You know, there's any geneticists who are listening.
46:11
You know, you've got the inbreeding, the cross breeding,
46:13
the outbreeding, the the overbreeding.
46:16
Yeah. And you want to make sure that you have diversity within your colony.
46:23
A to make sure that you're bringing in different genetics and you're not getting too
46:27
much into inbreeding, but also so that you can end up bringing in
46:31
different personalities and different skill sets.
46:33
Right? Because if you think about people if you think about the needs of people for that
46:39
need a guide dog and you put it on sort of a bell curve or an,
46:44
you know, an arc, you've got the people at the top of that bell curve which,
46:47
you know, the dogs are they, they find the door,
46:51
they find the curb, they find the elevator.
46:53
They do all the things the guide dogs are supposed to do.
46:56
And they're, you know, they're what I call the the average,
47:00
the average guide dog, the guide dog that does all the things that
47:02
guide dogs do. And then there's the other end of the scale where that person just gets up
47:07
and basically goes for a walk around the neighborhood and comes back,
47:09
and all they need is a dog that goes around the neighborhood safely.
47:13
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's not meaning to say that that's not a good life.
47:18
Quite frankly. I'd like that life right now, but but but you don't need a high energy dog
47:25
with a massive amount of confidence that can get on planes and trains and automobiles and
47:30
and everything else. And it can handle crowds and loud noises and sirens and,
47:35
you know, so that's the other end of the scale.
47:37
So you need dogs from one end of that arch to the other end of that arch.
47:41
And, and you want to make sure that you if you don't have all of that within your
47:46
colony, you have to work with other other organizations to get that those genetics and
47:55
that into your into your colony.
47:57
The way to do that is to work with, in partnership with other guide dog programs
48:02
and say, hey, we've got this great we've got this great lab.
48:06
We think that this is the, you know, she's beautiful,
48:09
she's got all the great things, but but we don't have a good partner for her.
48:14
They have a good partner.
48:16
So then we we work together and we create.
48:19
And then both of those dogs end up adding to the breeding of both of our colonies.
48:25
So you have to have the partnerships in the breeding.
48:29
During Covid especially we struggled the, the issue is that there's more people that
48:36
want dogs than there is dogs.
48:39
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dogs.
48:39
Diane Bergeron: Yeah. And, and trainers to go around.
48:42
There is a shortage of guide dogs, mobility instructors and guide dog trainers.
48:46
And even if you've got all the trainers that you want,
48:48
if we don't have enough volunteer puppy raisers to raise those puppies,
48:52
I can't, I can't breathe and have, you know,
48:56
500 puppies. If I only have 100 puppy raisers,
49:00
what do I do with all those dogs?
49:02
You know, so you have to.
49:04
It's like the cycle has to be perfectly matched right from the beginning
49:13
to the end. The end, which is the handler.
49:18
And of course, it actually is more like a circle,
49:21
because eventually that handler is going to need another dog. And so they have to do the
49:24
full circle right back to the beginning.
49:27
So it's it's a very tight knit circle.
49:30
And if you don't have partners within that system to help you when you have a shortage
49:36
and they have a, you know, some schools, they,
49:38
they had the problem, they had too many puppies during Covid.
49:42
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
49:43
Diane Bergeron: And they weren't running classes because of Covid.
49:46
We needed puppies like we needed dogs.
49:49
So they gave us their dogs and then we gave them back dogs and we like.
49:53
That's what partners do.
49:55
You know and it really worked very well.
49:58
We've got partnerships all around the world now that we work with.
50:05
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: O di. We're almost at the end of our session here.
50:08
But based on your wealth of experience, your wealth of knowledge,
50:14
your education and everything, I sure admire what you've done.
50:19
What words of wisdom would you have for future advocates?
50:26
Diane Bergeron: You know, I think I would love to say that the time will come where advocacy is not
50:32
needed anymore, that the world is just built for everybody.
50:38
And things are just, you know, part of life.
50:41
I don't think I'm going to be alive if that ever happens.
50:44
I think that it's going to take much longer than the rest of my lifetime.
50:50
And I'm not sure we'll ever get there.
50:54
Advocacy for me is, I would say you when you're advocating there's different ways to
51:02
do it. You can advocate from within and become a part of the system.
51:08
You can't beat them. Join them. Type perspective,
51:11
help to build, help to create.
51:15
Sometimes you have to go from without and really push and and become more forceful.
51:21
Sometimes you have to legislate, sometimes you have to get the media involved.
51:26
Sometimes you have to beg, plead and grovel.
51:29
And sometimes you have to, you know, become friends with somebody so
51:32
that they can understand.
51:34
But ultimately, advocacy is knowing your audience and understanding that you need to
51:43
change your strategy based on the audience that you are trying.
51:48
Because really, the problem with the world isn't the electoral system or the
51:59
you know, the lack of Braille places or the policy that isn't working properly.
52:06
The problem is the attitudes against and the stigma that is held against people who are
52:14
blind or partially sighted and deafblind.
52:17
And that's what we need to change.
52:19
You're not going to change any of the systems until you change the attitudes.
52:24
And that's got to be the number one piece of the puzzle for advocates.
52:29
Know your audience and know that it's their attitudes you have to change.
52:33
So you have to you have to get them to change their mind,
52:37
preferably in a nice, friendly way.
52:39
But sometimes it has to.
52:40
You have to change their mind through legislation,
52:43
but that's what you're trying to do, ultimately.
52:47
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Diane Bergeron has been a pleasure.
52:49
Absolute pleasure listening to you.
52:51
I've learned so much.
52:53
Diane Bergeron: Well, thank you for having me on, Donna.
52:55
We've been we've been friends for a long time,
52:57
and I very much appreciate the invite.
53:00
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And if ever you wanted to come back, please do.
53:04
Thank you again. It's been a pleasure.
53:06
I hope we sometime we will be able to meet up and have a glass of wine and take it from
53:13
there.
53:13
Diane Bergeron: I was up for a glass of wine.
53:15
Donna, you know that.
53:16
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know that, I know that.
53:18
So take care. Hi to your hubby.
53:20
Diane Bergeron: Thank you.
53:21
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we will talk to you soon.
53:24
Diane Bergeron: Sounds good. Take care.
53:25
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
53:26
Diane Bergeron: Bye bye.
53:27
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
53:31
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
53:37
Until next time.