Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #211: The 1st Approved GMO Wheat & RNA-Sprayed Pesticides: The Latest GMO Foods & Why It Matters

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Episode #211: The 1st Approved GMO Wheat & RNA-Sprayed Pesticides: The Latest GMO Foods & Why It Matters · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: The US has approved genetically modified wheat.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's called HB4 wheat.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the world's first genetically modified wheat that's been approved for commercial use.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels Podcast with yours truly, the farmer Joel Salatin, discussing things with our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sina has been working diligently just lately up uh to update her original book.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is part of that additional research.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we uh we live and learn, we we uh we make refinements even in our thinking, and certainly we make refinements in in our research and what what we learn day to day.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um as Cena says, it's impossible to know everything about everything.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh so um today we're going to move forward with a discussion about uh genetically modified organisms and where we are in this in this evolution in our country.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Genetically modified organisms, of course, do not exist in nature.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are huge boundaries in nature so that a a pig, a salmon, and a pepper plant can't uh engage in um in uh um sexual activity to create a new uh being.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um as I said in my book, folks this ain't normal, my chapter on Geomosis said, look, if you look out your window and see a horse and a pepper plant and a tomato uh getting it on, you can be assured that something's not right.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if sex if the sexual plumbing doesn't uh um match up, uh it's it's not right.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in nature, there is, you know, historically, there has been a push in this.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you can mate a horse and a donkey.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're very they're they're somewhat different, but that gives you a mule.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody knows what a mule is.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: A mule is sterile, and so it's almost like God says you can do this, but you can't go any farther.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, in genetically modified organisms, this is not just a permutation of Mendel's um hybrid pea experiments, where he he was uh hybridizing peas.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that goes completely beyond the scope, boundaries, and and and proclivities of nature, and of course gave us the ability to use you know Roundup ready soybeans that's been used in corn and soybeans so far mostly.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, it's mainly used in um in corn, soybeans, and cotton, uh, genetically modified organisms.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the technology is being adapted, and Cena's gonna bring us up to date a little bit on some of the some of the new technologies and adaptations to this now um several decades old genetically modified organism technology.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, Sina, there you go.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Great, thanks, Joel.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, the the reason why we want to talk about GMOs is because things are changing, and the vast majority of people uh consume GMOs on a daily basis, and a lot of times they don't even know it.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: One of stat from the environmental working group indicates that the average adult in America eats about 200 pounds of GMOs every year.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So 200 pounds, Joel, of that's a whole adult male, a big male size of GMOs that you may be eating every year and you're not really realizing it.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and there's uh labeling, as we have talked about on this program, the new uh labeling regulations are very weak and I think intentionally designed to be misleading to the consumer so that we don't really know what we're eating.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to do a little bit of investigative work here and share what we've been uncovering.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing I want to say is that a milestone has been reached because the US has approved genetically modified wheat.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's called HB4 wheat, and this is the world's first genetically modified wheat that's been approved for commercial use, right?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's to be sold to us.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: It is engineered to tolerate drought and the herbicide glufosinate.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it tolerates drought because it contains a sunflower gene that helps it withstand water stress while maintaining its yield, and it's tolerant to glufosinate because it has a bacterial gene in it that gives it that tolerance.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's already grown in Argentina and it's been approved for food uh for like so basically for our consumption in Brazil, Australia, Colombia, New Zealand, and the United States.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: In the United States, the FDA said in two in 2022 that it had quote unquote no further questions about the safety of this HB4 wheat for our consumption, which, as we've discussed on this program many times, that means it's essentially equivalent to grass, generally recognized as safe, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the company conducts the research.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: The government does not do that.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: The company conducts the research, submits the findings to the government, and the FDA says, Oh, we don't have any more questions, so go ahead, you know, and then it can immediately go on to our dinner plates.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: That means the FDA did not require pre-market approval, and they don't intend to regulate this new genetically modified wheat or track it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not going to regulate it as a food additive amendment or a food additive under that ruling.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: The USDA in 2024 deregulated it.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, that means if the USDA says that it's not likely to pose an increased plant pest risk, it will do what's called deregulating it.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that means that this new genetically modified wheat is not subject to regulation by the USDA either.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: It also means that if this wheat crosses with another modified plant or even a non-genetically modified plant, the offspring that can be produced are also not regulated.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just kind of free-flowing out there, you know, in the environment.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you do you know, Cena, are are these um uh are these GMO the the wheat the wheat um that's created by this, the seeds, the seeds, which is what we eat, the wheat seeds, um do they can they be planted or or or are they sterile?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of the basically the all the GMO crops so far, you can't plant the seeds from those crops.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have to keep going back to the back to the patent holder, the company that owns the owns the uh the patent on the seed, you have to go back to them to buy the seed.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a protection they put in to protect their their property.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So a quick search is saying that the HB4 wheat seeds are not sterile, that they can be planted to grow new drought-tolerant wheat crops, and that but the company strictly controls its commercialization.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what does that mean?
• 8:16
  unknown: I know.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So what they're saying is that the wheat, the wheat can be uh planted to grow another wheat crop that will also be have the same characteristics of as this.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it means that they're controlling the commercialization, meaning that it's not gonna be sold to gardeners.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, we had that purple tomato, which was the first genetically modified plant that was actually sold and targeted to backyard gardeners.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that's what they're saying is this one is not going to be um available for like you to grow it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it is approved for importation and for our food and animal feed and domestic cultivation.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it can be legally grown on U.S.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: soil and included in our food products that are sold to us.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it looks like it maybe it has to be planted commercially, not for I I expect what what that means is you have to buy the seeds from them that you that you can't save seed.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: That I I I can't believe, I can't believe that they're not they're not tagging those seeds.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't get bogged down in here.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh anyway, yeah, go ahead.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead with your yeah.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Here's another uh source saying that it's not sterile, that it's a fertile transgenic wheat line.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: The regulatory dossier reports the inherited traits are stable, stably inherited across multiple generations.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're saying it's with uh Mendelian segregation, which is exactly what you'd expect from a fertile variety, not from a terminator seed.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: That makes this even more um a little bit scary.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it might be like how before, you know how Monsanto would restrict saving and replanting of seeds.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like um there that might that might be occurring here.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, so they're not sterile.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that also opens it up to like drift, you know, things like that that could happen.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's what happened with the you know, with the originals, that it would it would drift over and you'd have corn or soybeans that had part, and and Monsanto would fly over with a drone, take an infrared picture, and uh that somehow was able to capture that this is GMO and then take you to court, and you had to pay a big fine for having their property on your property when you didn't pay for it, but you didn't get it, it was it was um it was drifted across because you know pollen pollen's pretty promiscuous, you know.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we live in a promiscuous world.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and wheat has gone genetically modified wheat has gone rogue before.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So while it wasn't approved for commercialization uh until just recently, it has appeared in like Washington and Oregon and Montana.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's um genetically engineered wheat uh appeared in some of the fields.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the USDA investigated, and I remember, at least in in the one in Oregon, they're like, we can't figure out how it got here.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So they just closed the investigation.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: But as I said, it wasn't even approved to be sold.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was already rogue back then.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's uh legal to cultivate this type here, to grow it domestically.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the concern is contamination of the non-genetically modified wheat crops.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so it's getting uh so the one of the pictures we're painting today in this podcast is it is it is getting more and more difficult to control these genetically modified plants and to stop them from contaminating the plants, these crops, our food sources that God naturally gave us and that he intended us to eat.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's getting harder.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And as I'm gonna lay out a case here, we and on a large-scale view, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: On so, like a high view, we are losing the fight against GMOs.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, they're gaining acceptance.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: This was a huge hurdle.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it it traditionally wheat uh was off limits, right?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wheat was the big genetically modified crop that or the big crop that was off limits.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: You could not genetically modify it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And this is partly because wheat is the world's dominant brain grid.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: It supplies the last I checked, about a fifth of the global energy or calories and protein.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it was off limits.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: There was strong consumer pushback, and there was fear over export bans because while the US wanted to push forward on it, some other countries didn't want it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's fear that if we grew it, they might stop importing our wheat.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that now wheat is allowed legally now to be genetically modified here in the US, grown here in some other countries, this is a huge torn turning point in the global acceptance of GMOs.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so it also it also means that this could lead to more use of the herbicide glufosinate, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because now this wheat is um tolerant or resistant to it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so if that happens, if glufosinate level increases, it's likely going to raise food concerns, including export concerns, because not everybody allows glufosinate on their food.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So in Europe, they banned um glufosinate.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the EU banned it.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, they didn't renew its approval, which is essentially banning it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: They classify glufosinate as a reproductive toxicant based on animal studies.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, in the US, we are expanding our use of glufosinate.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: The EPA registered um its active isomer, glufosinate P in October of 2024, and they set new tolerances, which means it widened on label use.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: So now more of it can be used.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, this this is the um this is the trajectory we saw with uh Roundup with with um glyphosate, you know, when glyphosate came in, um you know, that's an old, that was that was glyphosate was developed good night 50 years ago, but it was relatively you know, used just a few million pounds globally a year, but as soon as they got GMO Roundup ready, um soybeans and corn, glyphosate has now jumped to I think it's 400 million pounds.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um 400 million pounds.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's everywhere.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so so the the GMO um uh technology does not reduce chemical use, it facilitates, it catalyzes chemical use because now uh you can you know you can uh be more aggressive in your weed-free approach.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we may see the glufosinate starts vying for second place on the podium behind uh glyphosate, you know, as spray as spray use um increases here in the United States.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And now we'll get into some nuances with this when we get into when we talk about CRISPR.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but globally, globally, the pace of GMO approval is accelerating.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in 2025, the European Commission approved three new genetically modified corn varieties for importation.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is a huge shift for a region that has long opposed GMOs.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then in May of 2025, Ethiopia approved the telemase, which is uh resistant to drought and a pest variety.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And in China, the regulators greenlit a new herbicide tolerant soybean.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So this to all of this taken into account reflects that there's a growing acceptance of GMOs in some of these key agricultural regions.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is this is the first concerning point.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have GMO wheat grown here, and we have other areas that once opposed GMOs opening up to this um this possibility as well.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So next I want to go into how this technology has changed because this is really critical when it when it comes to how it affects our health, how you can identify it in a grocery store or your farmer's market, even um based on you know labeling.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And how is the government ensuring that these things are safe?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the three main categories I want to talk about next.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, to do that, I think we should briefly mention what traditional genetic engineering is.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, up to recently, whenever someone would say GMOs, what they were referring to was called traditional genetic engineering.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is like um BT corn or BT cotton or Roundup Rady soy.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: These are some examples of traditionally engineered uh crops.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, in brief, what you have are you have the we have genes, and those are just segments of DNA.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the DNA gets converted into RNA in the body.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is happens in in humans, plants, animals.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the DNA gets converted to RNA.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, it's called messenger RNA.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Then it gets converted into a protein.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so from DNA to messenger RNA to protein.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: The proteins are so important because they are the body's workforce.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: They run almost every function in the body and on the plant.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so in the body, they run functions like carrying oxygen, digesting food, helping neurons fire signals, repairing tissues.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens with genetic engineering is it targets this process at different points, sometimes by editing the DNA itself, adding in new instructions, sometimes churning on and off genes, and sometimes it will intercept that messenger RNA to silence the gene.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So in traditional genetic engineering, it was designed to do two things, and these are on more of on the targeting the protein level.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, it could add a protein.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: In this, this is the one that most people are familiar with.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So in this method of adding a protein, one or more genes would be added to the plant to force it to make an additional protein.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you'd add a DNA to a plant, it would turn the plant would turn that into our a messenger RNA, and that would be turned into a protein.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that would cause some kind of trait or or function of a plant.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what most people probably don't know, because at the time, the government and the companies who were making these genetically modified plants, they told us that the technology was accurate and safe.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: What most people probably don't realize is that one of the most common ways that they made these plants express these new proteins is by using a gene gun.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they would literally shoot DNA particles, you know, at the cells, um, at these um cell samples, and they would insert often at random sites using a bacteria.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the donor DNA could be from the same species or a different species, uh, but they would shoot this gene gun at it, and one cell um would take it up, like once once one cell would take up that target, um, that cell is grown into a whole plant, and that new trait would ride along with it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Example, Roundup ready soybeans.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: These are glyphosate resistant.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the government, and as we already know with this one, the government actually had to change the regulation to keep Roundup ready soy on the market because you had to spray a ton of glyphosate on it, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and the level of residue was too high because the technology failed.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the government had to actually change regulations just to keep it on the market.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another example is the BT corn.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where you have corn that has a bacterial gene.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: We if for brief, we call it the BT gene.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: That gene is added to the corn's DNA.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: It forces the corn to express that gene.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that that Bt gene it will be turned into messenger RNA and then will be turned into the protein, which in this case is a pesticide.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Bt toxin.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is a pesticide.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: That means that corn is making pesticide.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: It became a pesticide factory.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: When an insect bites into the corn, it ingests that Bt toxin.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which kills it by rupturing its gut.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the problem is we eat that corn too.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're we're seeing that it could be associated with leaky gut in us.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so these are two of the most well-known examples of a traditional genetic engineering of a crop where you've added a new protein.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Another example is the flavor saver tomato, which had delayed softening.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some people might be familiar with that one.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: The second, the second um job or the second way that you can have traditional genetic engineering is to actually reduce a protein.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is less well known in terms of the mechanism that people most usually aren't aware of it, but you've heard of it before because the most well-known example of this type of technology is the Arctic non-browning apple.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Remember those, Joel?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Those are like you can buy apples already pre-sliced for you now in these plastic packages, and they don't brown.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that's because um they they contain a gene.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so apples contain a gene that produces the enzyme called polyphenol oxidase that causes browning when an apple is sliced or it's bruised.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: What scientists have been able to do is silence that gene, which slows down the browning process of these Arctic apples.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, just in brief, what a scientist can do is they can take the DNA and they can insert that into the plant.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, in this case, the apple, and then the plant itself makes the messenger RNA.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And now what happens is the plant's machinery will chop up that messenger RNA, right?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because it has the instructions to do that.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: It chops it up into little guides.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're kind of like if you think of a military scout, like looking for an enemy, it chops up and makes these little um uh messenger RNA guides or sorry, RNA guides, and they seek out the messenger RNA that you're trying to attack and silence.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: They either cut it up or they block it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so when that message, when that RNA message is blocked, the cell can't turn that RNA into a protein.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in essence, you have silenced that gene because the goal of a gene is to create the protein, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's going through messenger RNA, it's trying to create this protein that has some kind of function in the cell.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if you block the messenger RNA, you block the protein.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you in essence silence that gene.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, a lot of times it's actually not totally knocked out, it's just knocked down.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's why eventually the apples will brown, but it will take them a long time.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: But so those Arctic apples are an example of that.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that technology is called RNA interference or RNAI.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I want you to remember that because there's a very concerning version of it that we're going to talk about in just a moment.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: That is called RNA interference, RNAI, because it's interfering at the level of the RNA to silence the gene.
• 25:13
  unknown: Okay.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you get a really, really good compost grown uh apple, it will brown way faster than a chemically commercially grown apple.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh apples that we have here, I mean, you almost can't you almost can't eat the apple fast enough to stay ahead of the browning.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and and and that that is indicative of um of the fact that it is highly digestible.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So once again, we're now going not only away from nature.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're going against digestibility.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, which is really concerning given the skyrocketing of chronic illnesses and digestive issues in our country.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're just making the food even harder for our bodies to digest and assimilate.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: That see, we're just going in the wrong direction here, yeah, in general.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: That that's what this podcast, the bottom line is we're going in the wrong direction.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Turn the ship around, and that's why we're doing this.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to help you to know what's happening, to be able to identify it, to choose what we are designed to eat, you know, for your health and your family's health.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sadly, they're the F the the EPA has approved um the first plant incorporated RNAI trait um with insecticidal activity.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that was done actually in 2017, and that's the um SmartStacks Pro.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that one was uh to control Western corn root water root rot.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that so this, so in other words, I'm not just explaining things that are you know in the labs that scientists are doing, these are being grown, and people are being are consuming these things, people and are animals.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the EPA is hailing this technology as a win for the environment because they're saying that it doesn't add even trace amounts of the chemical pesticides to the environment or to the food that's produced from the plant.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they're vowing, and the manufacturer is vowing that this RNAI doesn't affect the the corn plant or whatever plant it's it's happening in, or the people, or the animals, or the insects who eat the plant.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: For some reason, Joel, maybe I'm cynical.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I do not believe them.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, I wonder why.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even just, you know, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of this.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's literature suggesting the opposite.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the RNA guides themselves that are used to locate these target genes, if they're off by even just a small amount, it can bind to and silence an unintended gene, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of genes that are conserved across species.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And there are studies that are cautioning that there there are um there's potential for these off-target effects that could extend beyond the even the closely related insect insects.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: They could extend beyond to soil microorganisms and pollinators.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's it's um uh and and and I forgot to mention the RNAI could even be passed down to other generations.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no recall when you're dealing with genetically modified organisms, there's no way to recall it.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Once it's out there, it's out there.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get into the newer technology because this is where um we're having difficulties in being able to, as consumers, identify them and avoid them.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what's happened is we've moved away from the like the gene gun technology, even though it's still in use, but we've moved more away from that and we move towards gene editing, gene editing tools and a spray-delivered gene silencing tool.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So let's briefly just talk about those two.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the gene um editing tools people may have heard of, they're things like CRISPR or Talons or ZNF, Zinc Zinc Fingers.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: All of these work under the same idea that they're gonna try to bind to one specific target site.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you listen to proponents of the of gene editing, including the the person who got the um the Nobel Prize for it, they will tell you that things like CRISPR are precise.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they call it precision editing, uh precision gene editing.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the way they explain it is that once what once it's docked, so once it's docked to a DNA site, it will cut it and it can add a new gene sequence.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it can add it, it can delete it, it can modify it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're saying that it's very precise and it's very accurate.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to do is just briefly explain to you what happens and then some of the literature that's always already suggesting that it is not as accurate as what they are claiming.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So with CRISPR, CRISPR is the most known technology, and partly because um Joel, have you heard of Colossal?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: How they um how they created the the woolly mouse, and they're trying to bring back um with the direwolf um and they used CRISPR technology to do that.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a gene editing technique that works kind of like you had this molecular smart scissors guided by a GPS tracking system.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the GPS is supposed to find a specific spot of the DNA, and the molecular scissors make this cut, and then it goes to work either deleting or fixing or inserting a gene.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Today, scientists can actually change 15 genes at one time, Joel.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: 15 genes at one time using this technology.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And unlike traditional genetic engineering, which often does add a foreign gene from other species, like the BT corn, the proponents are claiming that CRISPR can edit an organism's own DNA without adding any foreign DNA.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is key.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's key that you remember that because this hinges on the regulations, okay, um, and labeling laws.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in essence, they're claiming that that is the case, that oh, it just happens within the same organism.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So some are saying it's not even genetic modification because you're not bringing in a foreign DNA.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we actually have uh published peer-reviewed studies that are showing that that's not entirely true.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: That sometimes they leave kind of like a fingerprint behind, that it's not like a surgical scalpel.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a pair of dull scissors, right?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then it can get really messy.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes after CRISPR makes the cut and the cell rushes in to repair it, like to patch up the DNA, they've actually shown that there's little, there's chunks of the carrier DNA that get glued into that site.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's introducing um an extra DNA fragment that wasn't actually supposed to be there.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you've talked before about the black and white Holstein dairy cow, right?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them are naturally born without horns, but right, most of them have horns, right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so they they have to de-horn them for safety reasons on you know, on farms.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: But there's that gene editing project that basically copied that um hornless trait in and and they genetically engineered these different dairy cows to make them hornless.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what happened was they went ahead and did it after the fact.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some scientists at the FDA looked at the um DNA data that was publicly posted, and they found chunks of bacterial carrier DNA, which is called plasmid.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they found that it was actually added during the editing process of those cows.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: It had accidentally been pasted into the cow DNA next to the intended change.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that extra chunk was um coded for it included a sequence for antibiotic resistance, which is already a huge problem amongst among in our food supply.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: So coded for um antibiotic resistance, and some of those extras were actually passed on to calves.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the experiment, I guess, was a success.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so the antibiotic resistance was was um um an unplanned, yes, that was an unplanned um external thing that happened, yes, like a oh, uh like um a surprise, if you will.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, they did the breeder did not ask for that to be put into that cow.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: It it it happened to be a fragment that got clumped in there during the process of editing.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Either they didn't catch it or nobody looked for it, and they saw it after the fact.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: So So then the obvious question is, well, so if you drink that milk, I mean we don't know.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows, but if if you if we've got if we've got uh antibiotic resistance uh DNA floating around in there, uh and it's in the milk, and you drink the milk, and then you get an infected finger and go to the doctor, suddenly nothing works on your infected finger um because you have a because your your body your body is now genetically modified to be resistant.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nobody actually knows.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's uh if that's hypothetical, but it could happen.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say yes or no.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the point is they also can't say yes or no because nobody looks at these things.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's after the fact, and and this is the story with GMOs.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's let's not try to anticipate unintended consequences, right?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let's not use a precautionary principle, even.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it because we can, and then let's see what happens after the fact.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's in essence the summation of how GMOs are treated and regulated in our country.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, you have all these scientists that are saying that and publishing studies showing, I mean, kilobase size deletions um in these areas where they're making these changes.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Kilobase size, these are these are that's huge, huge amount of deletions that are occurring.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's complex rearrangements of genes that are happening.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um in 2018, a study concluded this, and I quote, extensive on-target genomic damage is a common outcome at all loci and in all cell lines tested.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: The researchers cautioned that genetic damage is quote, frequent, extensive, and undetectable, and they stress the need to check the entire genome.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: So when you do this genetic engineering, if you were really concerned and trying to have good scientific practices, you would sequence the entire genome, not just this smaller area that you're working with.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not always the case that that happens.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: So these researchers are cautioning that moving forward, we need to actually sequence these entire entire genomes because Joel in 2021 a study came out saying that basically, while they're touting that CRISPR is this precision type of gene editing tool, breaks have caused chromosomal mutations that can lead to cancer.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: So powerful tool, absolutely.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: As a scientist, I think CRISPR is so innovative, it's so innovative, and it's fascinating what we can do.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: But at this point, we are not skilled yet, skilled enough to be messing around with plants and animals and humans.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but let's move on because we have more to get to.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one thing I did want to mention, I find this ironic.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and one reason why I'm saying this is because you've talked a lot about clever speak and about really reading between the lines of what they're saying.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So CRISPR, as I mentioned, is marketed as precise, and by implication, that means safe.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: I heard an interview with the person who um won a prize for CRISPR, and she talked about how CRISPR is precise and safer than traditional genetic engineering.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, she's saying that in spite of what I just told you, that the literature is filled with examples of how it is not precise and can get messy.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that means the fact that we're questioning this doesn't mean we're anti-science.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: It actually means we're following the science and we're using common sense here.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: But CRISPR is being sold as a solution now to the inaccuracy of traditional genetic engineering, right?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're saying, oh, this is more accurate.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: That wasn't accurate, this one is precise and accurate.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: But Joel, if you remember in the 1990s, when traditional genetic engineering was coming into our food supply, we were also sold that load of goods that, oh, this is precise and accurate, right?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: So my question for you is are they lying to us now or were they lying to us then?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: They both can't be true.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if it was precise then, there's no reason for this today.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're and if they weren't precise then, then they were lying to us then, and the chances are they're lying to us today.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have a I think we have an Anthony Fauci conundrum here.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: It has a lot of parallels.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, I will add that there's still food that we eat today that was actually made with that gene gun technology.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: So some um BT corn and some Roundup Ready soy, it was it was made with that technology that they are now saying, oh, that wasn't accurate.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: This one is.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we so just keep that in mind, everybody, that when they say this, it's not stuff that you're they're just sitting in a lab doing this.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: You are eating the consequences of their decisions.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, how much do you trust them to make these decisions for you?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is the question.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there's crops now.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's crop now.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, it's hard to track down the crops that are being CRISPR edited and all these other types of um gene editing tools that are being used.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: My husband and I have been have been working on this for a couple of weeks now to track down some of these.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wanted to go through a quick list so that if you see these um in the marketplace at some point or coming on the marketplace, you can avoid them if you would like to.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one is a high GABA tomato.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So GABA is a neurotransmitter linked to stress reduction.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: So these tomatoes have been engineered to have elevated levels of GABA in them.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this product is already on the market in Japan.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's sold directly to consumers in Japan and it's been sold since 2021.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: This was actually the first CRISPR-edited food to enter the marketplace, these high GABA tomatoes, at least from what I can find.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first one to enter the marketplace, and that was now four years ago.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: The next one is mustard greens that don't have the as bitter of a flavor.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: So mustard greens with less bitter flavor.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this was the first CRISPR edited food I could find that entered the market in North America.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was launched in select restaurants, cafeterias, hotels, retirement centers, and cafeterias in a few cities.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, sorry, um caterers, caterers in a few cities in the U.S., as well as a grocery store in New York City.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is currently licensed to Bayer, and that means Bayer has the right to commercialize the edited mustard greens.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: The next one is an anti-browning white button mushroom.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that one of the big movements with CRISPR in the food supply is to delay browning, right?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: To basically try to preserve food longer because of the food supply that we have created for ourselves, where things are grown all over and then picked unriped and shipped to us instead of getting fresh food from your local farmer or farmer's market.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they're trying to make sure that there's less um that the food goes bad more slowly, so that in part there's less waste.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's actually nothing wrong with eating brown, you know, uh a brown apple or a brown mushroom or whatever.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's all it's all about aesthetics.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's not there's nothing nutritionally, you know, nutritionally problematic with brown.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's strictly, it's strictly uh viewed as a um as an unappetizing thing.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you've talked about this before too, right, Joel?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um quite often our food has been not just genetically modified, but even bred for appearance and transportation versus nutrition and flavor.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we see a continuation of it.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about shelf shelf life.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a big push in CRISPR from the anti-browning white button mushroom, which actually was deregulated by the USDA in 2015, and it's already moved to commercial trials.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it can be grown and sold in America with no oversight.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have non-browning bananas coming up.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: These are claimed to remain fresh for up to 12 hours after they've been peeled.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: These are already approved for sale in the Philippines.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And there's brown, uh non-browning uh romaine lettuce.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: This was also deregulated by the USDA and has moved to commercial trials, from what I can tell.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's also tomatoes with enhanced vitamin D3 levels, which are in development.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's canola with higher oleic acid content.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going for omegas now.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this was deregulated by the USDA.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: It can be planted and bred in America, and the maker is ramping up for commercial scale production in the US, and it's targeted for aqua feed, but also for human consumption.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that I'm expecting to look out for that soon.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have, of course, the non-browning potato.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is um being tested in field trials, from what I can tell.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is different than the one that's commercially available.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we have the innate non-browning potato.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: That one uses RNAI, the traditional genetic engineering.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this one is different.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is a different non-browning tomato made through CRISPR.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's soybeans with hyalic acid.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this was actually, from what I can tell, the first gene-edited food released for consumers in America.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is currently available on the market.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: It did receive a no-furthers question uh letter from the FDA in 2019.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this one is apparently available on the market.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: We also have delayed ripening of melon, papaya, and kiwi fruit that's coming down the market.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have a reduced gluten wheat that is in development.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one lab in 2024 was able to reduce the level of gluten in the wheat by 97.97%.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: So these are all ones I've been able to identify that are either on the market or they are coming up for the market.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's also um there's also precision breeding, but before we go into that, let's let's save that in case we don't have time, because I do want to go into this last application, which is the one that's most concerning for me.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is called spray-induced gene silencing.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is using the RNAI technology, but it's spray-induced gene silencing.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of the newer tools that's in the GMO arsenal.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: So remember how the Arctic apple, I said it doesn't brown because the RNA silencing machinery is made within the apple.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is different.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: This one works.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: The spray-induced gene silencing works, as the name implies, by spraying the silencing machinery onto the leaves or the soil or injecting it into the trunk of the plant.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that means no DNA is actually inserted into the plant by the scientist.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: The farmer would literally spray this gene silencing message in the form of this you know, RNA onto the plant.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: So picture that, and what could possibly go wrong with that, right?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I said I want to get to this.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is very concerning.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: So in a nutshell, a scientist designs a short piece of this double-stranded RNA that syncwids matches a target gene's messenger RNA.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that target could be in the plant, it could be in the pest of that plant or in a fungus that's gonna, you know, try to eat that plant.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: If the target is the plant, that RNA, so it's sprayed on the plant, it will enter the plant through microscopic pores, the stomata, or tiny cracks, or it could be taken up by the root.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Once it's inside that plant, the plant's own machinery will chop it up into those short, um, those shorter guide RNAs that will then seek out and and um slice up or kill or disable the target messenger RNA, silencing the gene.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's like the military scout coming out looking for the enemy and then taking out the enemy.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how they're doing gene silencing by spraying these other RNA onto the plant.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the same thing with the pathogen, they would eat it, and by that um by that line of thinking, they would ingest it, and then their body would go ahead and run the same playbook and um and kill that messenger RNA of the target.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, this technology is already approved in America.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in 2023, the EPA allowed the first sprayable RNAI pesticide in the world.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's lead prona.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: The brand name is Kalantha.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: It is approved to be used commercially.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: So lead prona is a double-stranded RNA product.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: It targets the Colorado potato beetle, which is a major pest of potato crops in the U.S.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: It kills the beetle by silencing the gene that that beetle needs to produce a certain protein to keep it alive.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is being marketed by uh Greenlight Biosciences.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's sprayed on the plant like you would spray a conventional pesticide.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: That means it needs a stabilizing formulation because naked RNA will fall apart quickly in sunlight and on leaf surfaces.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just this RNA message that's being sprayed on the plants.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, it's it has formulators that are required.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: So carriers, so things like um lipids or lignin particles, these will help this RNA stick to and slip through the cracks of the leaf.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: It helps it resist breakdown, it helps it slowly release over time.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if you don't have this carrier, the effect of the RNA is short, hours to maybe a few days.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a good formulation, it extends that out to even maybe a couple of weeks.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's even more concerning because it's more chance of contamination.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I couldn't help but uh but catch the name of the brand on this um on this product, um Kalantha.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Green light, listen to this.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just run this by your brain for a minute.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Green light biosciences.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, doesn't that sound organic?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't that sound like the like the coolest thing since uh toilet paper?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so this is the clever speak.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is the word speak.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Green light biosciences.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're using bio using all the buzzwords, the the buzz uh suffixes and prefixes.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it makes everybody think, oh, this is this is great because now I don't have to use a pesticide.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even green.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is this this this is way more natural because it's not a pesticide.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the EPA's line of reasoning, too.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: That they're like, oh, we're not actually spraying these pesticides on it.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is great, you know.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the EPA actually, because of that, granted a residue tolerance exemption.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning they're not gonna, there's no limit to the amount of this spray that could be sprayed on the crop because they didn't set a tolerance level, they exempted it from tolerance.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: So now the question is, well, what are what are the coformulants, right?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: What else is in there?
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Just like we learned from glyphosate, it's so much worse when you add it to the the coformulants, right?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much more toxic.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, so we so I don't know what the coformulants are in this one.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, uh so that's a big unknown category right there.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: But the EPA um is so certain that this is great technology that they said that there's no risk of concern to human health and the environment.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no risk at all.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: No risk at all.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So even if we don't know what the coformulants are, right?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: Even if we're just looking at the technology in and of itself, if they're spraying this on there, the dream of a pesticide that only bothers the pests and it's gonna leave the ladybugs and the earth warm behind, it is seductive.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: But these drifts, these real world sprays can actually drift, they can leach into surrounding habitats.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: What if it washes into the waterways, which is what happens with glyphosate?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right?
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: What if these hush instructions are actually drifted by wind or taken beyond the target to a neighboring crop, crop or animal or a pollinator?
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can silence genes that are unintended in other species.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Look, Sina, the entire, you know, the entire uh whatever uh legacy or or of a chemical approach to biology is unexpected consequences.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knew who knew that eagle eggs wouldn't hatch when the eagle ate DDT?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Who knew that amphibians that um that frogs would be coming infertile?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: Who knew that salamanders would be born with three legs?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, from thalidomide babies to everything.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the oh, it just, you know, the the narrative, it's it's it's all the same because it's coming from the same basic philosophy that we're smarter than God's design.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of figuring out how to work with the design, we can over overrun it or override it.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that we know better.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it it lacks the humility, you know.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now in the time that we have remaining, let's talk about the labeling.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right, because GMOs are getting more and more difficult to be able to identify if a consumer doesn't want to want to eat them.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: As you know, we have the USDA's national bioengineered food disclosure standard, which is just a mouthful in of itself.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is the this is the bioengineered labeling regulations.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we've discussed this in detail on this program, so I won't bore you with that.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, what it comes down to is a food has to be labeled as quote unquote bioengineered, only if it contains detectable modified genetic material, um, or if it has a change that couldn't be achieved by conventional breeding or found in nature.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why many gene-edited foods and highly refined ingredients won't carry a label, like um a seed oil, right?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily have to uh can carry that label because in the process of highly refining it, it tends to destroy the modified material.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as they say, oh, it's not detectable, it doesn't count to be labeled for the most part.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, there's a whole argument about, well, maybe we don't have the technology to be able to detect it, right?
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because how do you find something that you don't know exists?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the second argument is not everybody is looking at the entire genome, which is what I mentioned previously.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there could be off-target um modifications that have occurred that they just didn't detect, but it's not going to be caught under this labeling regulation.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it gets nuanced.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: For example, the classic RNAI products like the Arctic apple and the innate potato that we discussed, those are required to be labeled under this USDA regulation because they do contain detectable modified genetic material.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because remember, they were made by inserting the DNA into those products, and that product makes the double-stranded RNA itself.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's present.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: But in contrast, these spray-aplied RNA pesticides that we're talking about, they don't change the plant's DNA.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: They silence the messenger RNA.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't have to be labeled, Joel.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like any of these plants that are treated with that, they they do not have to be labeled.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Just like CRISPR, uh, CRISPR edited foods are largely not required to be labeled because the edits are said to be possible through traditional breeding, or they're saying there's no detectable modified DNA.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: But as I already debunked that myth for you, there can be detectable DNA left behind like fingerprints.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: So there's still it's there's still loopholes here.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's still limitations to how you can even implement the regulations for labeling that the USDA secretary set forth.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why, in my opinion, I feel like they're doing this intentionally so that they don't have to actually tell you which of these things have been genetically modified, even down to possibly changing the definition.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I heard an interview with a proponent talking about how, oh, well, we don't we're not adding a new gene into this plant.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're just modifying the plant itself using CRISPR, and we're giving it a trait that you could find in nature.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: So technically, this is not a genetically engineered plant.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, what how did you get to that?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: You made it in a lab.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like so if you if you take a um a spider and figure out a way to give it uh another leg uh because legs are found in nature, uh, this is a not this is not a a Franken spider, it's just a regular spider because legs are spider legs are found in nature.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, right?
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is the this is the thinking.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just more clever speaking, it and the only thing I can really conclude, and you know, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing I can conclude is that they are intentionally trying to make this difficult for a consumer to identify what they're eating.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: So one way I don't want to end on a negative.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so one good thing is that there are organizations who do identify all these things as genetic modification still, and one of those is the non-GMO project.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: As you know, they're a third-party verification uh uh that that helps to basically let the consumer know when something has been genetically modified.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just looked at their website this morning, they do talk about gene editing, including CRISPR, and they do actually um consider that genetic modification.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if some if a product, if a food is labeled with the non-GMO project's seal, that means that they have confirmed down to lab detectable levels that there are none of these GMOs in it that we've talked about today.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one way a consumer can walk into a grocery store and have some kind of faith that the food that they're eating does not contain these modifications.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, technically, the organic certification is also not supposed to allow these products to be labeled as organic.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: As you know, there's loopholes with that as well, and they don't they don't test um for the presence of GMOs.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's largely a paper trail.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but on paper, that label is not supposed to allow GMOs, and that is why I pair it with the non-GMO projects seal.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and of course, you can um you can know your farmer know your food.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you exactly you can uh get um get from your farmer like like um for us our the our our um our feed mill that grinds our chicken and pig feed uh they actually they actually test every batch of feed that comes in for glyphosate and and and uh completely GMO free.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, these these things these things can be done, but I uh I think I think one of the upshots of this thing, we're out of time, Cena, but I think one of the upshots of this of this podcast is that um it is becoming more ubiquitous.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: GMOs are becoming more ubiquitous.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: They are um not only ubiquitous, but they are becoming more more uh endemic within the population of plants.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, where you have where you have um drift and you have um unplanned consequences.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it they're they're they're going deeper, they're going deeper into the genetic structure.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and of course, you know, again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm not speaking it right.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, they're they're going deeper into the biology of the system and and becoming more more uh what would I say, you know, more basic um in the in the organism, uh, which is which is very, very frightening uh for you know for all of us because, yeah, again, these people have been telling us they've got it all under control for a long time.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: And those of us that are uh have our eyes open, we know they don't have it all under control all the time, and there's routinely an oops that they didn't know.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when they when they did GMO, GMO uh cotton, for example, uh oh, this is gonna be great, and um uh thousands of farmers lost their cotton crop because unbeknownst to the um you know to the GMO folks, their GMO cotton was way more susceptible to frost.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so suddenly uh there was about a three or four degree difference in in uh frost susceptibility, and uh thousands of acres of cotton were lost because the GMO cotton was more susceptible to frost.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: These are things, you know, you can't uh they they just pop up.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, you know, as Dr.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: Zach Bush so eloquently talks about the the adaptability of nature to it you you can't just um say we're going to have you know one color, one size, one structure.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um the biology is constantly morphing.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so here we are.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I would add to that, uh, you can grow your own as well, right?
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: Even just in a pot, just start growing your own tomato or a thing of lettuce on your kitchen table in a pot.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, start small so you don't overwhelm yourself, but start um get seeds that well, I buy um organic heirloom seeds and start saving your seeds so that you have your own seed bank so that you know that your food is not being cross-contaminated um with any of these modifications.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's um at some point, uh Joel, on this show, I'm sure we're gonna get to the point where we have to talk about well, let's all multiple episodes on how to grow in the greenhouse because of all the contamination uh concerns, as we get more and more crops that are genetically engineered with these traits that can carry on on wind, on rodents, and on pollinators.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and and I I think it's very clear here that uh that we are moving more and more, maybe even faster, into an era where uh where you have to go beyond labels.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: We can't we can't trust the labels, we can't trust the EPA, we can't trust the USDA, we can't trust these government folks to um, you know, if if you're if you're staking your future health on the government agencies and the label, you're probably uh going to be disappointed.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I would add to that, if you're staking your health on the biotech industries, just taking them at face value, then I I think you're gonna be disappointed.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the okay.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's our community question?
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so uh a community question could be um I I I think I think uh this might be one.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you think that the um do you think the CRISPR um the CRISPR technology evolution is beneficial for our future?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly got a lot of great press.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's got a lot of great press, and um, you know, we don't we ran out of time today, but it might be interesting to add on to that for the listener to give us their feedback because uh one of the arguments is for um sickle cell.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, these um conditions and diseases in humans that have been targeted as genetic conditions and correcting those conditions using technologies like CRISPR.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it does add kind of this little conundrum of should we be doing it or not, because it could potentially help some people who have conditions like sickle cell.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious to see what our listeners have to say about it.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's I think that's a that's a good thing.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good thing.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right, everybody.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, listen, thank you for joining us on another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we hope you have a great week, and we'll look forward to visiting with you again next week.