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TABLE TALK: The Life And Legacy Of Pete Rose With Keith O'Brien · The Philadelphia Sports Table | Philly Sports News & Views

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everybody. It's Jeff here. I wanted to let
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: you know we recorded this Table Talk interview show on Monday,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: October seventh, twenty twenty four. By the time you hear this,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: some things may have changed here or there, but we
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to Table Talk here
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: at the Philadelphia Sports Table podcast Show, the longest running
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: weekly Philly sports podcast show in the world, over eleven
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and a half years strong. We got a great discussion,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: as we always do, come in your way here on
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: table Talk this week. As many of us know, Pete Rose,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the legendary Major League Baseball player who is embroiled in
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: so many different type of off the field issues, mainly gambling,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: passed away last week at the age of eighty three
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: years old. This week here on table Talk, we're going
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: to be getting into Pete Rose, his life on the field,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: off the field, what he meant to the game of baseball.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: We've got a great guest coming your way. Let's get
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: right to it. Joining us here for the very first
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: time at the PSD podcast show, and here on table
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Talk we have New York Times best selling author of
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Charlie hussell fantastic book that came out earlier this year.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I would highly recommend you go to wherever you get
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: and purchase your books again. Check out Charlie Hussell, purchase it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Today we've got Keith O'Brien. Keith, how you doing, buddy?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Hey, Jeff, thanks so much for having me.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: It is great to have you. Great to be able
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: to talk to you about Pete Rose and it's amazing
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: how his passing last week just kind of brought back
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the relevance of your book, Charlie Hustle again that you
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: wrote this past I mean, you've written it probably for
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: quite some time, and we're certainly going to be getting
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: into the book and your experiences with Pete. But came
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: out earlier this year. Must have been must have been
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: quite the process and just going through the many chapters
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: of course that you had written and getting to know
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: this man and were I can't wait to get into
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: it with you. But first for our listeners, Keith, can
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: you kind of tell everybody a little bit about your background,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: where you came from and and second, you know what
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: really was the impedus for you to want to write Charlie.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Hustle, Yeah, so you know I was born in Cincinnati
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: in the early nineteen seventies, born and raised there, too
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: young to remember the Big Red Machine years. But I'm
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: in the wheelhouse from my love of baseball. When Pete
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: is traded back to Cincinnati in nineteen eighty four, I
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: remember exactly where I was in nineteen eighty five when
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: he set the all time hit record yep. And I
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: remember all the many and conflicting emotions about the gambling
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: scandal in nineteen eighty nine. And so, you know, part
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: of my interest in this story was that it was
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: in some ways the wallpaper of my childhood growing up.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: But really why I wanted to go back to it
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: was for a couple of other reasons. The first is,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: you know, I feel like, you know, in the the
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: last thirty five years, while Pete was banned from baseball,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I think we forgot why we ever cared about him
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: in the first place.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: And so I wanted to go back and tell this
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: whole story, tell the rise and the fall of Pete
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Rose right, and do it in a way that I
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: think it had never been done before. You know, this
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: book it was not unintended to be a case for
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose. It's not intended to be a case against
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose. I wanted to lay out the story, the
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: good and the bad, let people come to their own
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: conclusions and do it with you know, granular unprecedented reporting,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: including access to Pete Rose in his inner circle. And
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: the last reason why I wanted to write this book now, Jeff,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: is because the world has changed in the thirty five
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: years since as from baseball, and it's changed a great
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: deal in the last six years with the sweeping legalization
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: of gambling across America. So what better time to revisit
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: the story of one of our most notorious gamblers, and
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: that's what Pete was than now.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: We are absolutely going to be getting into that aspect
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: of Major League Baseball Pete Rose's life. And during this conversation, folks,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: you said something that I think it's pretty interesting. Keith.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: You always remember where you were when you found out
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: that Pete Rose was banned from baseball. I remember that
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: moment too, actually remember watching the television the news was
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: on in my mom and dad's house. I was able
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: to take it in as a fan of baseball, as
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: a fan of sports, saying to myself, Wow, this is
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: an incredible moment. I have never heard of anything. I
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: was a kid of course at the time, but having
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: not heard of anything like this before, and the shockwaves
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: that it sent through not only Major League Baseball but
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: the sports world in general. It really is something that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: sports fans who have been been around the block for
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: a while, you know, we'll always remember.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a it's an unprecedented moment really in
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: modern sports history. And we just came through a year,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: this year filled with one gambling scandal after another, and
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: you know, they would make headlines and then disappear.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: YEP.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: This story, this scandal involving Pete Rose in nineteen eighty nine,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: absolutely devoured the nineteen eighty nine baseball season. It was
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: far bigger than a baseball scandal. It was an American scandal,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: and it was because of Pete Rose, you know. You know,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: he was by the end of the nineteen seventies far
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: more than just a baseball player. He was an American icon. Yes,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: he was a beloved American figure. And so the notion
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: that this beloved figure who epitomed so much about what
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: we love about ourselves that you know, if you work hard,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: if you try ard, if you hustle, you can make
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: it that's the Pete Rose story, that's the American story.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: And here he was embroiled in this scandal that really,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: you know, drew lines in the sand for a lot
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: of people. Because I'm sure we'll get into today. Pete Rose,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: you know, does not admit the truth in nineteen eighty nine.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: He does not admit the truth for the next fifteen years.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: In a great many ways, he never fully reckoned with
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: the truth. Yeah, and because he didn't, some people believed
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose. Some people believed major League Baseball setting up
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: this fight that's really you know, divided baseball for a
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: long long time.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, let's dive into Pete Rose's life here and
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: what actually made him tick, Keith, because look, we are
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: all built upon the foundations of our childhood in many
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: different ways. And I'm wondering if you were able to
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: or had the ability to really dissect who Pete Rose
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: was because of how he grew up, perhaps his value
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: system that he may have learned from a very young
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: age as a kid. I know that you would accompany
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: him to autograph signings. Did you get to know the
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: foundations of Pete Rose from when he was a kid,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: what made him tick? Until the latter part of his life.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Pete Rose was born and raised on the
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: West Side of Cincinnati. That was, and in some way
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: still is, a more working class part of Cincinnati. His
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: neighborhood certainly was. It hugged the River Ohio River about
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: six miles west of downtown, and this was a neighborhood
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: of machinists and railroad workers, barge operators. That's the kind
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: of place where Pete Rose grew up. And he grew
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: up there with a father, Big Pete as he was
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: known on the West Side, who demanded the most of him.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose was never the best athlete on his youth
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: baseball teams or even his high school baseball right. Major
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: League scouts would visit his high school on the West
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: side of Cincinnati in the nineteen fifties and recruit lots
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: of players. They did not recruit Pete Rose.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: He wasn't the most athletic gentleman out there.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Well, he wasn't even that great of a hitter in
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: those days. You know, he was a late bloomer in
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways, and also, you know, not the
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: biggest guy. He did get the most out of his talents.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: That was drilled into him by his father, Big Pete.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: This notion of hustling doesn't begin, you know, you know,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: on a major league baseball field. It begins on you know,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: ragged fields on the west side of Cincinnati in the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, where Pete knows that he has to work
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: carter than his other, than his friends, than his teammates
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: if he's going to be a starter on his youth
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: baseball teams, and so, you know, he comes from a
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: working class environment. He knows he needs to work hard.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: And the last thing I think it is important to
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: know about this landscape is that gambling was everywhere on
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: the West Side in the nineteen fifties. His father loved
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: going to the racetrack. There was a little tavern down
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: the hill from Pete's house, so close to Pete's house
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: that he could have hit it with a baseball that
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: men would gather in and gamble in. Kids would gamble
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: outside the walls of those taverns themselves, including Pete Rose.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: And so all of these things that will come to
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: be poor to his personality and to his problems later
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: really do begin on the West side of Cincinnati.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: It's very interesting, it really is I mean you said
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: in an art of that I had read in The
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Guardian that when it came to Pete, you know, you
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: saw it all. You saw it all. He was crass,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: he was brash, arrogant, yet entertaining all at the same
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: time he had that charisma, charisma that you know entertainers
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: need to have in order to become or reach a
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: certain echelon within their life. And I'm wondering, Keith, can
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you talk about how that charisma not only helped him
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: in life, but how it was also a detriment to
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: his life as well.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Pete really did have charisma, and I felt it
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: even during the reporting of my book. You know, I
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: did manage to get access to Pete Rose for the
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: reporting of Charlie Hustle and did conduct twenty seven hours
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: of recorded interviews with him on the phone and then
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: in person until, by the way, he did stop calling
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: me back. He did shut down, Okay, But in that
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: time when I was with him, it was important for
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: lots of reasons, and one of those reasons is, you know,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: was able to sit across a table from him, I
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: was able to feel that charisma. See how he could
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: even in his early eighties, light up a room with
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: his charm and his storytelling, you know. But everything about that,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: you know, his charm, you know, would in some ways
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: make him a start, because sportswriters, the beat writers in
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties and seventies absolutely gravitated to that. But
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: it would also fill Pete Rose with a certain confidence
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: that he could overcome anything. Yeah, you know, I think
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: one key reason why Pete will not admit the truth
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine when he is caught for gambling
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: on baseball and betting on his own games, is that
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: he believes he can out charm the problem, which is
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: something by the way, he did for many years. You know,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: based on my reporting.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: A lot of entertainers, really quick, A lot of entertainers
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: have that mindset. A lot of political figures have that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: mindset as well. And I say that and our listeners know,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: as somebody who's an elected official myself, you know, there
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: are political folks who go down that road thinking they'll
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: be able to get out of certain situations just based
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: on their personality and their charm.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Well, and you know, Pete thought it because it had
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: worked for him before. Yeah, you know, based on my reporting, Yeah,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: he's getting in all kinds of trouble in the nineteen
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: seventies over a decade before he will make national headlines
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: for his gambling problems, and he gets away with it,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: you know, because people are willing to let.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: It go, right, absolutely absolutely, all right, Well, as we're
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: moving along with the discussion here, I think it's interesting, Keith,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: how you wrote in the book, if Pete Rose was
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: playing baseball today, he would have found legal ways to
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: gamble and play bets, something you mentioned a little bit
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: earlier during our discussion, you know, something some of us
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: do from time to time with FanDuel or draft kings,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: quite frankly. And now I'm wondering if you can talk
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: about that massive cultural shift in gambling that we have seen,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: and how Pete Rose may have, you know, maybe discussed
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: that in the latter part of his life, seeing how
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: a gambling has become more accepted from a cultural standpoint,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and how he really viewed that as well.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: What are your thoughts, So, you know, let's be clear
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: about two things, just so everybody is on the same page. Obviously,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: if a player were to do today, even on a
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: legal gambling app what Pete did with bookies, in the
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventies and eighties. He's still gonna face permanent management,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: just as Pete. I think. The other thing important knowledge
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: off the top is I do believe Pete was addicted
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: to gambling. He was a gambling addict, and gambling addicts,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: addicts of any kind, make poor, irrational choices. That said,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: you know, Pete couldn't get enough of gambling, and ultimately,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I do think began to bet on baseball because he
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: had gotten into debt to bookies by betting on other
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: sporting events, on basketball and on football, and decided ultimately
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: to bet on the thing he knew best. I think
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: also because he was an addict, he couldn't stop himself
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: from crossing that line. But it is an interesting thing
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: to speculate about. You know, we're Pete today in twenty
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: twenty four able to bet, you know, on his phone
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: on everything under the sun, everything under the sun. Jeah?
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: What have it? Maybe stopped him from betting on baseball,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: the one thing he knew he couldn't do. I mean,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: we'll never know, but it is it is an interesting
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: It is an interesting thought exercise.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I want to go back really quick. You
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: had mentioned that you know, you had twenty seven recorded
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: hours of conversation and discussion with Pete Rose until he
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: shut down. With regard to you, he seemed to shut
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: down with a lot of different folks within his life
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: over the decades. Are you able to talk about that
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: moment when he did shut down with you? You were
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: information gathering for your book, Charlie Hustle, You were wanting
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to understand the man. You were wanting to understand what
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: made him tick, and then he shuts down. Are you
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: able to talk about that moment at all?
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Well? Sure, I mean, you know, I've thought a lot
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: about it. You know, I had access to him. I
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: was doing the interviews in person. We were spending time
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: together on the road at autograph shows and other events
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: where he was the keynote speaker or the or the
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: key entertainer. I had intimate access to this world. And
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: that's obviously useful for a writer and for a historian,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: for all the obvious, And you know, and yet you
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: know I was pushing him, of course, you know Pete.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Pete loved to talk about the good days, the moments
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: of glory, and there were good days, and there were
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: moments of glory, and we did talk a lot about
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: those things, because again, I wanted to tell the whole story,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: the rise and the fall, yes, but we didn't also
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: need to speak about the darkness. And you know, there
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: were times when it was plainly obvious to me that
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Pete did not want to do that or could not again,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: even here near the end of his life, honestly reckon
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: with the truth of what happened, was still even now
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: at the end of his life, telling frankly lies or
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: falsehoods that he'd convinced himself of. Perhaps.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: And that's interesting right there, because that's I was actually
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: hoping you were going to say something like that, that
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Pete rose, his personality, his demeanor, who he was as
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: an individual, really seemed like he believed the lies over
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: such a long period of time. And when you're believing
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: the lies, you're kind of a lost soul in a way.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's sort of true for all of us, right,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, we we all we all tell ourselves stories
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: of our own lives, yes, uh, And and and how
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: a certain thing played out and why it played out
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: that way. You know, I think we all, we all,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: to a certain extent, uh, you know, are unreliable narrators
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: of our own story, right, he certainly was, and and
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: and and that was frustrating at times, for for our
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: for my reporting, and and ultimately, you know, Jeff, we
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: didn't have a falling out. We didn't have a contentious conversation,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: you know. I I spent an entire day with him
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: on the road where his agent was there with him
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: that day, and shortly thereafter he did He never did
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: call me back again. And you know, one interesting thing
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: about Pete. You know, we have this vision of him
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: as this agent of confrontation on the field, and there
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: are certainly plenty of examples we can point to of
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: when he was confrontational on the field, But in his
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: personal life, Pete Rose did not like confrontation. He did
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: not like face to face arguments. And I knew something
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: was wrong. And I ended up seeing him again and
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: asking him, what's going on? Are we are we good here?
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: You know, you haven't called me back for a while,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And he said, oh, no, we're good, we're good. You know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: text me next week and we'll set up another time.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Text me next week, and he just never he never
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: got back to me again.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, very interesting, folks. Keith O'Brien, New York Times
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: best selling author of Charlie Hustle. Search out the book online,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: give it a purchase, and also follow Keith on the
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Twitter slash x at keith Obe. He's a great, great
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: follow And as we're moving along with the discussion here, Keith,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: you know, while while the entire book Charlie Hustle is
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: definitely a fantastic read for any fan of baseball, I'm
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: wondering what part of the book do you find to
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: be incredibly interesting in terms of Pete's life? You know,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: maybe many of the demons that accompanied him that you
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: report about in the book, perhaps how he revered the
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: game of baseball itself because he truly did, or maybe
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: how things turned out with him not getting into the
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. You know, what are your thoughts here
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: on what aspects of the book you find to be
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: incredibly interesting? Perhaps that you didn't realize that you were
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: going to be witnessed to and seeing up close and
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: personal when you were doing your reporting on him.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Well, there were lots of things I loved, I mean
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: truly loved about writing the book, you know. I loved
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: being back on the West Side and painting this gritty
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: image of what Pete's life was like in the nineteen
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: forties and fifties. I loved, you know, rendering with new
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and fresh reporting, you know, the collision with Ray FOSSi
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the nineteen seventy All Star Game, or you know, retelling
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the unlikely story frankly of the nineteen seventy five World Series,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Pete's first world series titled that famous World Series. But
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: you know, for me, Jeff, the thing that I think
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: was most surprising was telling the story of the fall.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: You know, we all know that Pete was banned from
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: baseball for gambling on baseball. We have forgotten how that evolved,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: how it happened, why it even happened. And what became
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: clear to me from my interviews was that it was
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Pete's involvement and connections with lots of other young men
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: in Cincinnati who were part of his sort of personal entourage,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: who all get themselves in trouble around nineteen eighty six
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven. One by one, these men, first on
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: the fringes of Pete's inner circle and then very very
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: close to the center, start to go down for other
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: crimes and alleged misdeeds. Like you know, cocaine distribution and
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: steroid distribution, and yeah, gambling and tax evasion. And so
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: what I did for my reporting was I went back
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: to Ohio. I went to the federal courthouse in Columbus,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: and I ordered back all of these files, you know,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of case files, which ended up being
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of pages of documents, and you know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: spend days with those documents, scanning them. And when I
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: did that, I realized that, you know, by nineteen eighty six,
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, the walls are closing in around Pete Rose,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: only Pete Rose is blissfully unaware of it. Yeah, and
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: it is really those relationships and those dealings that will
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: almost doom him a couple of years later in nineteen
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: eighty nine.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'd love to keep talking more with you,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: and you know, I could talk for another hour or
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: two with you, but we've only got time for one
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: more topic and one more question for you, Keith, before
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I let you go. On our podcast show last week,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: my co host and I we were talking about Pete's passing,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: you know, what he meant to the game of baseball,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and I had mentioned that I thought he was actually
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: a pretty terrible person in a lot of ways outside
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: of the game of baseball, just from a personality perspective.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe I was wrong about that after listening to you
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: and our conversation here, and Pete Rose is the person
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be missed too much. I don't know. I'm
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: not sure about that now after our discussion. But you know,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think we should ever forget about Pete Rose,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: the baseball player who gave, as you were talking about earlier,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of inspiration to a lot of kids and teenagers.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Somebody who worked hard, people kids who weren't athletic, who
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: saw that they could achieve that dream like Pete Rose did.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: So it's been really interesting to reflect on Pete Rose
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: in his life since his passing. Now that he's gone,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: how do you see his overall legacy continuing in the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: years down the road here?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I think it's a complicated legacy. I don't think there
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: is any way. I don't think there's any way to
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: talk about Pete Rose the player, the great and iconic player,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: without talking about Pete Rose the man, the terribly troubled
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and flawed man. And so I think in that way,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: no matter what happens going forward, whether he is ultimately
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: reinstated and placed on the ballot, or whether that does
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: never happen. I think he will be a tragic figure,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: you know, And that is really how I thought about
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: this book, especially as I got into the reporting. Obviously
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: this is a baseball book, and obviously this is a
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: definitive biography of an athlete, but I really thought about
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: it as a Greek tragedy, a Greek tragedy that just
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: happened to play out in and around American baseball field.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: And even though he is gone now, that is ultimately
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: I think what he will remain Absolutely great.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Great discussion again, folks, Keith O'Brien at Keith Obi on
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: the Twitter slash x New York Times best selling author
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of Charlie Hussel. Search it out online, Buy the book. Great,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: great book, Keith. It was great talking to you, my friend.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: It was really great learning more about Pete Rose you're
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: reporting on him. I appreciate you taking the time, and
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: you know what, I'd love to have you back on
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: the podcast at some point down the road, you know,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: I'd love to reach out to you and then come
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: back and join us. We'll talk some more. Baseball, perhaps
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: some more.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose, Let's do it, Jeff, thanks so much for
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: having me in. Go Phillies.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: That's going to do it for us here on Table
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Talk this week. Please share our podcast with your friends
• 24:49
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• 24:52
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• 24:56
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• 25:00
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• 25:03
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• 25:06
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• 25:11
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• 25:15
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