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The psychology of killing and its hidden costs · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:00
  Informed dissent, the intersection of health care and politics with Dr.
• 0:05
  Jeff Barkey, board certified primary care physician, and Dr.
• 0:10
  Mark McDonald, board certified child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist.
• 0:15
  All right, Mark, another great episode of Informed Descent.
• 0:18
  Welcome.
• 0:19
  Hello.
• 0:20
  So I am so excited to have our guest on, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman.
• 0:26
  Give you a little background.
• 0:28
  As many of you know that are listening, I was a school board member elected for 12 years.
• 0:32
  Following that, I founded a school board, a school out here, charter school out here in Orange County, Orange County Classical Academy.
• 0:39
  I've been following Colonel Grossman for many years.
• 0:42
  He went around for a long time giving lectures about school shootings and active shooters and how schools should prepare themselves here in the United States.
• 0:52
  So when I became a school dude, and still does it.
• 0:55
  Sure, sure.
• 0:56
  Yeah, and it's great.
• 0:57
  He's got these uh paper easels and he writes with two hands and these big markers.
• 1:01
  He's quite talented.
• 1:02
  And so when I uh became a school board member at Los Alamitos, one of the first things I wanted to do is try to keep our kids safe.
• 1:09
  Now we are in a very affluent area in Los Alamitos and Seal Beach and Rossmore and so forth, and our parents never assumed that anything like this would happen.
• 1:19
  But from time to time, we would hear about shootings at schools in affluent areas like Columbine, for example.
• 1:27
  And hearing that, we're like, holy crap, that could happen here.
• 1:30
  And what do we do to keep our school safe?
• 1:32
  So I invited Colonel Grossman to our school to give a presentation.
• 1:37
  When I first did that, the school board members said, Oh, hell no, we don't want him there.
• 1:41
  I don't want somebody in scaring our kids talking about active shooters.
• 1:45
  Our superintendent was even hesitant.
• 1:47
  So it turns out that Colonel Grossman was speaking, oh, I don't know, 45 an hour away, maybe it was Riverside or Anaheim, I don't remember where.
• 1:55
  So I took a school board member or two with me, and our superintendent, we went and listened to him, finally convinced them to have him out to our school, and he gave his presentation.
• 2:05
  As a result of that presentation, we over the over a period of several years instituted some policies that I think made our schools a lot safer.
• 2:16
  We created single points of entry in all schools.
• 2:19
  We required IDs of anybody entering the school in order to get have them gain campus.
• 2:25
  We hired an SRO, school resource officer, basically a police officer, uh, on our school campus, very expensive, by the way, over 200,000 a year because they're unions and they have to work certain hours and all this kind of garbage.
• 2:39
  We invited law enforcement on all 12 of our campuses.
• 2:43
  We created rooms at all our schools that allowed them to come on campus, sit and do computer work.
• 2:48
  We created snacks, uh, clean bathrooms, and we encourage them to drive by, come on our campuses, meet the kids, and have a comfortable place where they could do school work.
• 2:59
  And then the same happened at my charter school where we have an armed security guard, we call him a sentry.
• 3:06
  He's got a really cute police dog with him.
• 3:08
  He's in uniform, single points of entry in the same thing.
• 3:12
  And many of our parents are law enforcement, so we invite them to be on campus to be at all our events.
• 3:18
  I remind all our police officer parents, because they don't know this, they're taught differently that they are legally allowed to carry concealed on a school campus.
• 3:29
  Um, you know, because there's laws, especially in California that if you have a concealed carry permit, like Mark and I both do, despite that, we're not allowed to carry on campus.
• 3:38
  Yeah, but police officers are.
• 3:40
  So those are some of the things I did directly as a result of my hearing lectures from uh Colonel Grossman reading some of his books, one which is terrifying called Terror at Beslin about a Russian uh this was in Russia, where bad guys uh got into uh a school and killed lots and lots of people.
• 4:03
  It's frightening.
• 4:05
  Uh, and it can happen anywhere if you're not prepared.
• 4:08
  Yeah.
• 4:08
  So, Colonel Grossman, what an honor to have you on our podcast and and and speak with you.
• 4:13
  It's my pleasure.
• 4:14
  I'm such a fan of what you guys are doing, Dr.
• 4:16
  Jeff and then Mark.
• 4:18
  Uh you know, it's funny, so much of what you talked about cost nothing.
• 4:23
  You know, bad guys watch the school, random cop visits, cops is there, uh, you know, off-duty cops are there watching their their families and their armed.
• 4:32
  The the the thing about informed dissent in so many ways is you can never mention the lives that were not lost.
• 4:38
  You can never you can never measure the the lives that were not destroyed uh by knowledge, just information, just letting, hey, you know, it's legal for you to carry, and you're welcome to, and we want you to.
• 4:51
  That's that's that's informed dissent.
• 4:54
  You know, you're you're pushing against you, just informing them that you can legally do this, and you're kind of dissenting against the the mob mentality.
• 5:02
  Oh, an off-duty cop with a gun.
• 5:04
  Well, well, something bad.
• 5:06
  No, no, no, nothing's bad's gonna happen.
• 5:08
  It and it's a bad thing that didn't happen, you can't measure.
• 5:12
  I just I'm such a huge fan of what you guys are doing.
• 5:14
  Now, I grossman, tell us a little bit about your military background and why you started this movement to teach people about active shooters and how to prepare and all the work you do.
• 5:27
  And I I know you have a book, I think that still is required reading in the marine corps.
• 5:32
  I I have two books, Marine Corps Commandants required reading, uh, on killing and uh on combat.
• 5:39
  I'm one of the very few people with two books on the Commandants list, and I'll talk to you about that.
• 5:44
  Uh, and and how this all ties in to my core theme, which is recovering from trauma and post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic stress.
• 5:55
  And this really ties in with the idea of informed uh in informed dissent, this idea that everybody's gonna be broken by bad things.
• 6:03
  Well, no, they don't know about post-traumatic growth.
• 6:06
  What doesn't it kill me makes me stronger?
• 6:09
  They stole that from the Bible, you know.
• 6:11
  So the story begins in uh 1976, Private Grossman, 82nd Airborne Division, Vietnam veterans all around us, and we wanted to know what combat was going to be like.
• 6:23
  What's it gonna be like to kill?
• 6:24
  What's it gonna be like to be in combat?
• 6:26
  You know, there's things that people don't know, like auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, slow motion time, the physiological reaction to taking a human life.
• 6:36
  Oh, these these are taboo topics, and nobody would say what I realize now is it's the the act of violence and in the intimacy of combat is very much like sex.
• 6:47
  It's a it's a taboo topic.
• 6:50
  Uh, I I wrote the book on killing, came out in 1995.
• 6:53
  Uh half man copies sold in uh nine languages, marine corps commandants required reading and uh uh you know, just so fast forward.
• 7:03
  Uh Captain Grossman now, West Point Psychology professor is writing a book on the subject.
• 7:09
  I ask about what's happening in combat, and they'll tell me, you know, it's kind of like if somebody asked about your sex life, you wouldn't tell them, but what if a medical study asked you?
• 7:18
  You might tell them, right?
• 7:20
  And so um, so I gathered this information, and and so many of these Vietnam vets, he's World War II vets, right?
• 7:27
  You interview him by the hundreds, I'd present to their reunions and conduct these interviews.
• 7:31
  So many of them said, I've never told anybody about this.
• 7:34
  There's like this burden that comes with that.
• 7:37
  So, why is it so taboo?
• 7:39
  Why is this so taboo?
• 7:40
  So, my first book was on killing.
• 7:42
  I thought that what was at the heart of combat was the act of taking a life, killing.
• 7:46
  But what I found out was those that fully prepared themselves, killings just not that big a deal.
• 7:52
  I mean, the world war two generation, they weren't broken by what they had to do.
• 7:56
  What I found out was what's at the core of it is what's in my book on combat.
• 8:01
  Uh Ukraine Book of the Year Ward, Ukrainian translation won the book of the year ward.
• 8:06
  And uh, you know, I'll be 70 in August.
• 8:08
  I spent the summer of uh 24 in Ukraine.
• 8:11
  Uh I spent my summer vacation in the war zone training their troops at one of book the year ward.
• 8:16
  And um, and what's really important is how the mind and body responds to stress, sympathetic nervous system arousal, facial constriction, and uh and the parasympathetic backlash.
• 8:27
  Uh the fact that in combat, you don't hear the shots.
• 8:30
  What every hunter I wrote the book on hunting.
• 8:34
  You can't understand combat or killing until you understand hunting and the role it plays in who we are.
• 8:39
  And and hunters will tell you, you pull the trigger and you don't hear the shot, and your ears don't ring.
• 8:46
  Now we are still getting hearing loss.
• 8:48
  The shutouts in the auditory nerve, wearing protection when you hunt.
• 8:51
  But if you ask a hunter, yeah, I don't hear the shot, but nobody talked about it.
• 8:56
  They all live in their little silo.
• 8:57
  Nobody said, hey, you know, I didn't hear the shot, and I didn't feel the recoil.
• 9:01
  Well, the same thing happens in combat.
• 9:04
  Only only when you're killing that only in combat and hunting, did these neurons kick in with auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, slow motion time, and and it meets every definition of a psychotic episode, memory gaps, memory distortions.
• 9:20
  If you sat here right now and had these responses, boom, tunnel vision auditory exclusion, slow motion time, memory gaps.
• 9:27
  It meets every definition of a psychotic episode.
• 9:30
  Just those things by the cells get the daylights out of you.
• 9:33
  The fact that somebody's trying to kill you is bad enough without your body doing weird and wonderful things nobody told you about.
• 9:40
  But if you're told ahead of time these things are going to happen, then it's no big deal.
• 9:43
  But here's the kicker.
• 9:45
  You're uh uh uh uh Arkansas State trooper, first gun fight, bad guys down, he's alive, happy end of the story.
• 9:52
  A week later, he and his wife are at a swim meet, watching their daughter to swim meet, a starter's pizza.
• 10:00
  Goes off when he didn't expect it.
• 10:02
  Boom.
• 10:03
  Heart's pounding, gasping for rare, drenched with sweat.
• 10:07
  His wife thinks he's having a heart attack.
• 10:08
  He don't know what's happening.
• 10:10
  But what's happening is that sympathetic nervous system kicks in again when it has something that the midbrain, the survival brain says, boom, we're back in a gunfight.
• 10:21
  Sympathetic nervous system kicks in.
• 10:24
  And the world says, Oh, you have BTSD, you're broken.
• 10:27
  No, here's the key.
• 10:29
  And this is just this is where informed dissent comes in.
• 10:33
  You are not broken.
• 10:34
  The whole industry wants to tell you you have BTST, you're broken for life, you need therapy for the rest of your life.
• 10:40
  No.
• 10:41
  Well, how you re-experience in the event, sympathetic nervous system kicks in, we don't want it to.
• 10:47
  How you respond to it will decide whether or not it becomes PTSD.
• 10:52
  Now the World War II generation, that they knew what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, which was stolen from the Bible, Romans chapter five.
• 11:00
  We glory in tribulation.
• 11:02
  But the idea that the bad things will make us stronger, the idea that re-experiencing the event and pushing on through it for a modern generation that's not there.
• 11:12
  And they say, Oh, I'm broken.
• 11:13
  I have PTSD.
• 11:14
  No, no.
• 11:16
  So what we tell people is this sympathetic nervous system arousal kicks in what you don't want it to.
• 11:21
  Here's tools to handle it for breathing exercise, big swig of water.
• 11:27
  When you re-experience the event, you're gonna reach out, you're gonna push on through, and you come out the other end with post-traumatic growth.
• 11:36
  And the way I tell a new generation of soldiers and marines and cops and first responders, I'm 70 years old, still out of the road 100 days a year teaching.
• 11:46
  Uh, I tell them this is what it feels like to level up in a video game.
• 11:51
  In a video game, you've been in combat, you level up.
• 11:54
  So what's it feel like?
• 11:55
  Well, what's gonna happen is this is post-traumatic growth.
• 11:59
  You're gonna use your breathing, you're gonna use that big swig of water.
• 12:02
  And I just trained uh international uh uh association of hospitals, security administrators and and and chiefs, right?
• 12:11
  I said, Okay, you're your hospital security guard with punching the nose in the emergency room.
• 12:15
  I can't go in the merch room anymore.
• 12:17
  Every time go in the ER, my heart starts pounding, I'm broken, I have PTSD.
• 12:21
  No, you don't.
• 12:21
  Here's what you're gonna do.
• 12:23
  You're gonna walk in the ER with a bottle of water in your hand, and every time you start having that physiologic arousal, you're gonna stop, you're gonna take a big swig of water, you're gonna take a deep breath, you're gonna push on through, and now the next time somebody punches you in the nose, you'll be far better prepared.
• 12:41
  You are leveling up in a video game.
• 12:43
  Nobody wants to be broken, nobody wants to have a disorder, they want to have post-traumatic growth, but nobody told them here's what happened, your mind and body, here's how we push out the other end of it and turn it into post-traumatic growth, leveling up in this video game.
• 12:59
  And so, you know, that's that's kind of the core of my whole living is is pushing through.
• 13:04
  So here's the key.
• 13:06
  Why is violence so taboo?
• 13:10
  Why is it that having somebody come talk about the possibility of somebody attacking our school?
• 13:17
  And by the way, the very term school shooting, you know, we're armed citizens, shooting is our constitutional right, shooting is an Olympic sport.
• 13:26
  It should anger us every time the word shooting is used for a criminal act.
• 13:30
  I don't use the word school shooting, I talk about school massacres, school attacks.
• 13:34
  But why is having somebody come and talk about the possibility of an attack on your school?
• 13:40
  Why is that a taboo topic?
• 13:42
  Why is that so hard to talk about?
• 13:44
  Here's the key.
• 13:47
  The Bible of psychiatric psychology talking about PTSD.
• 13:51
  The DSM says, whenever the cause of your trauma is human in nature, the degree of trauma is usually more severe and long lasting.
• 14:00
  So I tell people, you tell me, is there a chance between these two scenarios?
• 14:05
  Scenario one, tornado hits a house while you're gone, put your family in the hospital.
• 14:09
  How do you feel about that?
• 14:10
  Well, thank God they're alive.
• 14:11
  Scenario two criminals break down the house while you're gone and beat your family in hospital state.
• 14:17
  Now you feel any different.
• 14:18
  There's all the difference in the world.
• 14:20
  Why?
• 14:21
  One's an act of nature, a random event.
• 14:24
  We can accept that.
• 14:26
  The other's an intentional malignant act by a human being.
• 14:31
  And the idea that somebody's so evil and so vile that they will come in your house and attack your family.
• 14:38
  It's too hard.
• 14:40
  And so many people's only response is denial.
• 14:44
  And denial kills us twice.
• 14:45
  You've all these school massacre, exterior door unlocked, interior door unlocked.
• 14:50
  The people in that school are living the rest of life in hell.
• 14:54
  Because it was it was school policy, lock the doors, but it was too freaking hard to keep this thing doors locked.
• 15:01
  Why?
• 15:01
  Right, right.
• 15:02
  Half the cost of a modern school building goes in a fire code.
• 15:06
  Half the cost of the building goes in a fire code, but they can't accept the idea that somebody would walk at that door and murder their children, and so they leave the doors unlocked.
• 15:17
  Why?
• 15:18
  Well, I remember now you're you're reminding me of part of your talk was uh there hasn't been a death in a fire in a school in some hundred years.
• 15:30
  Why?
• 15:30
  Because we created all these fire codes uh built around the tragedies that have happened in the past, and since then there hasn't been any school fires or deaths.
• 15:40
  70 years why aren't we?
• 15:42
  Why aren't we doing that with active murder in our schools?
• 15:46
  Because we could just as easily with some basic uh principles.
• 15:50
  Hey, you know, start with you know, just like we have a fire code.
• 15:54
  Why don't we have a violence code and make it the law that the doors are shut?
• 15:58
  I tell everybody you don't forgot, you know.
• 16:01
  The other thing we did at our schools based on your recommendation is we put these 3M films over all the windows, so somebody could still shoot through the window, but they couldn't break through, reach around and open up the doors like they did in Columbine.
• 16:15
  How hard is that?
• 16:16
  You know, I mean, it was cheap and easy.
• 16:18
  Put the laminate film any glass on the door beside the door, interior, exterior door.
• 16:23
  How much does that cost?
• 16:24
  Yeah, not much.
• 16:25
  The most expensive thing in the building is the fire sprinkler system under pressure for the lifetime of the building, electrical survival fire code, fireproof and for the structure of the building, but keeping the doors locked and putting laminate film on the glass is too hard.
• 16:39
  And until you make it the law, just like just like the fire code, they won't do it.
• 16:45
  But this is what we got to wrap our mind around.
• 16:48
  They can accept the fact that a fire could happen.
• 16:51
  The fact that so, Colonel, why do you why do you do this work?
• 16:54
  What prompted you and motivated you to do this kind of work?
• 16:57
  Yeah, you know, it really is.
• 17:00
  And I I uh one of my books is uh is on spiritual combat, and uh uh I believe that what you can figure out what God wants from you by the gifts that He has given you, and He's given me this gift.
• 17:17
  I'm 70 years old in August, I'm in ridiculously good health.
• 17:21
  Uh I I and I I just figure as long and he's given me the ability to teach, he's given me these insights, and as long as we have this gift, and and one of my favorite authors said that you know, you can discern what God wants by the gifts he's given you, and she said, God has a way of dealing with draft daughters, you know, you've got all these gifts, and you just you just drop out of life, boom, you that's that's just the next step to die.
• 17:47
  Um we've got these gifts.
• 17:49
  I'm set uh you know, Willie Nelson is 92 and on tour.
• 17:52
  That's who I want to be when I grow up, and I just believe that as long as marijuana I've got that because and and here's the key.
• 18:01
  I love my God, I love my family, I love my children, I love my grandchildren.
• 18:05
  My grandson just came back from his first combat tour, and uh, and and in the very near future, I've great grandchildren.
• 18:12
  And I believe, you know, I asked my cops, I ask every group, I said, Why do you do what you do?
• 18:17
  Nobody can pay you enough, and and Jesus said greater love is known than this, that they lay down their life for their friends.
• 18:25
  But there are many ways to lay down your life.
• 18:28
  There's sometimes the greatest love, and I I've got this on my tombstone, it's in my social media feed.
• 18:33
  Uh, you know, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman on my social media, my my tombstone is a bench, and on the back side of the tombstone is this saying from sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life, but to live a life of sacrifice, yeah.
• 18:48
  And I believe if we love our God, if we love our fellow man, if we love our nation, if we love our children, our grandchildren, love means you give 100%, and and and love means you take the gifts you've been given and use them to the best of your ability, and and say, Well, why do you guys nobody's paying you big bucks for this podcast?
• 19:07
  Why are you doing the podcast?
• 19:11
  No, yeah, we don't we make no money on this podcast.
• 19:15
  We do it because it'll for a couple reasons.
• 19:18
  One, it's fun, and it allows us the opportunity to meet some really interesting people and have conversations that we otherwise might not be able to have, and share those with you know, however many hundreds of thousands of people that download the podcast.
• 19:32
  Yes, may it be so.
• 19:34
  So, Mark, Mark is a psychiatrist, and you've talked a lot about post-traumatic stress and the impact uh that it has on people.
• 19:42
  Mark, thoughts on on what you hear Colonel Grossman say.
• 19:45
  I was reaching around the the the table here to my bookshelf because I could have sworn that I have your book on my on my bookshelf somewhere, but I just moved my office.
• 19:54
  I think I rearranged everything.
• 19:56
  It was a number of years ago, uh, probably uh five.
• 20:00
  Six years ago before Jeff and I met and we started training at firearms associates in Corona and before I received my concealed carry permit.
• 20:10
  A man came to my home who was a former military and he was a one-on-one handgun trainer.
• 20:18
  And I remember him very clearly saying there's there's three books that you really need to read.
• 20:23
  And one of them was this book that you wrote on killing.
• 20:26
  And I haven't thought about this in five years.
• 20:29
  And I ordered all three books, and I read all of them, and I still have them somewhere on one of my bookcases.
• 20:34
  I just, as I said, moved my office yesterday.
• 20:37
  Even more important than on killing is on combat.
• 20:40
  And uh, because I thought what was at the heart of it was killing it.
• 20:45
  And I realized this is and this is almost everybody will tell you the same thing.
• 20:48
  On killing's good, on combat's terribly important.
• 20:52
  Ukraine Book of the Year award, all the stuff on post-traumatic growth and PTSD is in here.
• 20:57
  Um, but the the point of it of this book was a big bestseller during the pandemic or the pandemic, if you will.
• 21:04
  This book was it was a huge bestseller in the medical community.
• 21:07
  It was number one bestseller on Amazon in several medical categories, because uh which enormously rewarding.
• 21:14
  So many people said, you know, it turns out the stress of combat is not too much different than the stress of what we're going through right now.
• 21:21
  And that was one of the most rewarding things in my life for the medical.
• 21:24
  I did a podcast for all of England's ER docs, and uh and uh and so I I just take the next step after on killing.
• 21:32
  I'm glad you found it of value, but take the next step on combat.
• 21:35
  And if you're focused that way, uh hunting is really kind of the triad on, you know, it understanding who we are and what we do, and then to make it the next step into on spiritual combat.
• 21:48
  So just to follow up on the whole book thing from the author perspective.
• 21:52
  But I'm so pleased that he would tell you that.
• 21:54
  And I'm pleased that your fellow sheepdogs, that your fellow uh gun totin, right-minded Americans, and and it it's you know, and all across all the bad things happen in our nation.
• 22:06
  Shall I shoot concealed carry going in a in uh you know in 43 states and then the Supreme Court decision essentially making it all 50 states?
• 22:16
  Uh the fact that when you make that conscious decision to protect yourself and your loved ones instead of being instead of being the the the we're talking on hunting that we've always been in the middle of the food chain as a species.
• 22:32
  We've been hunted and we've been the hunter, but it's no fun to be hunted.
• 22:36
  We don't want to be hunted.
• 22:37
  We're never happy when we're hunted.
• 22:39
  We're only happy when we're the hunter.
• 22:43
  And those who have chosen to carry a gun, those have chosen to make that decision to be the sheepdog and not the sheep.
• 22:49
  Uh they're they're they're so much, they're so much more joyful in their life.
• 22:54
  They don't lead a life of being hunted, they leave a life of being prepared.
• 22:58
  They're not necessarily on the hunt, they're not the wolf hound, but they're the sheepdog.
• 23:03
  They're ready to protect their flock.
• 23:05
  And uh, and it's a beautiful thing to have two fellow sheepdogs here.
• 23:08
  I actually have the U.S.
• 23:09
  government trademark for the term sheepdog.
• 23:12
  I uh I coined that term in my book uh uh uh on on on combat and uh and it's it's really exciting to see a psychiatrist that's picked up that run with it.
• 23:23
  The other half of the post-traumatic growth equation is that we're really, really good at treating PTSD.
• 23:30
  You're not don't don't go, don't have a negative self-filling.
• 23:34
  I'm gonna have PTSD.
• 23:35
  No, you can have post-traumatic growth.
• 23:37
  But even if you do have full-blown true blue PTSD, we're really, really good at treating it.
• 23:43
  And you come out the other one of post-traumatic growth.
• 23:47
  Is a soldier's PTSD versus a soldier, uh similar combat experience that doesn't have PTSD.
• 23:55
  Is it all about preparation before you go into combat and go into battle?
• 24:00
  You know, there's three variables in the equation.
• 24:02
  The first is previous unresolved trauma and uh in your life and and and preparation and forewarn and forearmed and all the things we can do before the event.
• 24:13
  And the second is the nature of the trauma in the event.
• 24:16
  And once again, that's a factor of mental preparation.
• 24:20
  You know, if you're sleep deprived, we got research.
• 24:22
  If you're sleep deprived, you're five times more likely to get PTSD.
• 24:26
  I tell people don't cop the pity party here.
• 24:28
  But if you're sleep deprived, your body's already under stress.
• 24:32
  When a traumatic event occurs, then the then these they can amplify each other.
• 24:37
  And finally, is the support structure afterwards.
• 24:40
  And they're really kind of multiplicative, you know.
• 24:43
  If you if you're low, you know, low in all three areas, they multiply each other low.
• 24:47
  If you're high in one area, you can amplify it.
• 24:50
  If you're high in two of the three areas, they they can really amplify things.
• 24:54
  But um, but the the soldiers who do not get PTST, uh, the primary thing that why they bring me in, why my books from Marine Corps commandants required reading rest for over 20 years is just being full worn and forearmed.
• 25:09
  Like I said, auditory exclusion, slow morse in time, tunnel vision, memory gaps, memory distortions.
• 25:15
  That boom, it's bad enough.
• 25:17
  Somebody's trying to kill you with all those weird and wonderful things happening.
• 25:21
  And then what's really vital is the debriefing afterwards, where we we make peace with the memory and doing that right, and those are things that they teach me.
• 25:32
  We uh we just had the marine embassy, the the um the consulate in Karachi, Pakistan attacked, and the marine guards there killed a lot of people.
• 25:42
  They really, it was kind of like, you know, we're old enough to remember when the uh when the Iranians took the U.S.
• 25:49
  embassy, and they were told basically to stand down.
• 25:52
  But these guys were told no, you're not stand out, and they shot a lot of people.
• 25:58
  And uh there the young Marine captain who had read my books in uh in Pakistan, uh uh wanted me to come out there and train, you know, to conduct the debriefing with his troops.
• 26:10
  And I basically told him, you know, I I'd be happy to if but but you can do this yourself.
• 26:15
  This is not hard.
• 26:16
  Yeah, I taught you how to do it in on combat, you know, do the debriefing.
• 26:20
  Everybody's got a bottle of water in front of them, fill in the memory gaps, sort out the memory distortions, uh, make peace with the memory, and uh and don't hesitate to get help if you need it.
• 26:30
  Yeah, come out the other one, post-traumatic growth.
• 26:33
  But the the truth is those marines are doing great.
• 26:36
  Uh, you know, the the marine guards who stood down uh uh when the Iranians took the embassy, they were destroyed human beings.
• 26:44
  They they were raised to fight, they were raised to defend, and they were told to do nothing.
• 26:49
  Uh the horrible things that happened to our embassy, the the hostages that were taken for over a year during Jimmy Carter's administration.
• 26:57
  Uh, they were broken human beings.
• 26:58
  The marines that were given permission to fight and win, uh, they're doing great.
• 27:02
  Uh you know, uh Colonel, we're gonna take a we're gonna take a really quick break, and then when we come back, more with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman uh and the work that he's doing, a new book that he's working on, and we'll be right back in a minute.
• 27:17
  Let's get real.
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• 31:50
  All right.
• 31:50
  We are back informed dissent with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, such an honor to have you here.
• 31:57
  So what I know you're working on another book right now.
• 31:59
  Is that right?
• 32:00
  I've always got a book going.
• 32:02
  I've got uh I've got one called On Murder, uh, working with a guy who's saying Life in Prison for Murder about really doing something nobody else has ever done.
• 32:12
  I've got a science fiction fantasy series that uh that is uh uh actually the first book we'll release very soon.
• 32:19
  But my very most recent book coming out in May is called Bulletproof Family.
• 32:26
  We wrote the book, Bulletproof Marriage, uh Christian Book Award finalist, 90 day devotional, sheepdog and spouse, anybody who is a sheepdog.
• 32:34
  Uh and that that that's you.
• 32:36
  Uh, but it's sheepdog and spouse, 90 minutes a day, or uh for 90 days, 15 minutes a day.
• 32:42
  But the sequel coming out in May.
• 32:44
  My my co-author really gets all the credit, is called Bulletproof Family.
• 32:49
  Uh, and it'll be coming out in May.
• 32:51
  So uh I've got that'll be that'll be my 17th book in print, and then first in this fiction series will be out in a in about a month.
• 32:59
  That'll be number 18.
• 33:01
  And uh, like I said, I you know, William Shatner is 94 and caught in a rock album.
• 33:06
  That's why I want to be when I grow up, you know.
• 33:08
  I'm just gonna stay in the fight as long as I can.
• 33:11
  How about you?
• 33:13
  Chuck Norris passed away recently, but there are a lot of Chuck Norris jokes about his strength and vigor.
• 33:19
  Maybe they should have uh Colonel Grossman jokes, the same thing.
• 33:23
  You know what?
• 33:24
  Chuck Norris with his last post, he said, I don't die, I level up.
• 33:30
  Yeah, and and that made the hair set on the back of my head.
• 33:33
  And it's true.
• 33:33
  I thought Robert the meme that's I'm gonna go.
• 33:36
  No, no, he really said that.
• 33:39
  And that's the way we should view life.
• 33:40
  You know, this is not our home.
• 33:42
  We're soldiers employed to a war zone.
• 33:44
  When we die, we get to go home.
• 33:46
  But bad things in life will make you stronger.
• 33:49
  You know, that that that guy that punched you in the nose, you're gonna level up to the next level in this game.
• 33:56
  Nobody wants to drop out of the game.
• 33:58
  The game is life, it's the only option.
• 33:59
  We want to level up.
• 34:00
  That's post-traumatic growth.
• 34:01
  That's Chuck Norris.
• 34:03
  We talked before we started recording a little bit about the challenges of cell phones on school campuses for us.
• 34:09
  Share your perspective on that.
• 34:11
  Well, you know, it goes back to informed dissent.
• 34:14
  You got to be informed.
• 34:16
  Uh uh I uh I recently presented to a um a New York Chiefs conference, just last December, a regional chiefs of police conference, and they banned all cell phones in all schools in New York.
• 34:28
  As I was told at the time, half of all states have banned cell phones in the school, but nobody knows it because they want to sell a cell phone to your kindergartner, they don't want you to know that half of all states are banned the things, and there's the cell phones are so harmful in so many ways.
• 34:44
  The social media, the games, the pornography, the cheating, the distractions.
• 34:50
  But here's what ought to just enrage you.
• 34:52
  If there's a major emergency in the school, a hundred terrified parents are gonna beat the first ambulance, and your kid's gonna die because those stinking cell phones in the phone in the school, and every kid is gonna immediately text mommy and daddy, and mommy and daddy are gonna know before 911, and mommy and daddy live closer than 911, and we'll have gridlock chaos in the first in the first three minutes, and emergency vehicles can't rhythm block the school.
• 35:18
  Your kid's gonna die.
• 35:19
  And then at the time we emergency responders use cell phones in so many ways, but the cell tower goes down because a thousand kids are calling out, a thousand parents are calling in.
• 35:30
  The media will know often before 911 knows.
• 35:34
  A hundred terrified parents will know all because the stinking cell phones in the school get those stinking phones out of your school now as you love your kids.
• 35:42
  Yeah, but who knows that half of all states have banned it?
• 35:45
  Who knows the state of New York?
• 35:47
  It's just not in the news because there's this industry.
• 35:50
  We're always fighting some some invested.
• 35:53
  This is where you guys come in.
• 35:54
  Informed dissent.
• 35:56
  There's some, you know, big pharma.
• 35:58
  Uh, you know, the these people want to sell the cell phones, you know.
• 36:01
  They uh the harm of sleep deprivation, sleep deprivation is the major factor in mental illness.
• 36:09
  It won't make you mentally ill on the third day without sleep.
• 36:12
  You you will be psychotic.
• 36:13
  Any graduate of Army Ranger School or Sears School will tell about hallucinations.
• 36:18
  Yeah, uh, you will flat you will be you will be psychotic on the third day without sleep.
• 36:24
  And on the second day without sleep, you you are you're irrational, you're aggressive, you're hostile, you're you're paranoid.
• 36:31
  Uh I mean, sleep deprivation is a just a one-way track straight to mental illness.
• 36:36
  It's a major factor in suicide.
• 36:37
  Do an online search, sleep deprivation, suicide.
• 36:41
  But right now, it's physically impossible for you to take your life.
• 36:45
  The drive to self-preservation is too powerful.
• 36:47
  But alcohol inhibits the drive to self-preservation.
• 36:51
  Alcohol is so often a factor in suicide, and sleep deprivation works exactly the same way.
• 36:57
  Do an online search, but but they're not gonna tell you that sleep deprivation is a key factor in traffic death, the number one killer of American teenagers.
• 37:04
  They're not gonna tell you that sleep key factor in suicide, the number two killer of our kids.
• 37:09
  They're not gonna tell you that sleep deprivation is a key factor in mental illness.
• 37:13
  No, no, they want that the Netflix, get this, do an online search.
• 37:17
  Netflix says our competitor is sleep.
• 37:20
  It's a corporate policy to steal your sleep.
• 37:22
  So they don't want you to know that the social media is destroying you and your children with sleep deprivation, and the cell phones are stealing your children's sleep.
• 37:33
  They don't want you to know that the the cell phone is is is terribly destructive to your schools, and half of all states have banned cell phones.
• 37:41
  They don't want you to know that because they want to sell the product to your children.
• 37:45
  The video game industry is never gonna tell you that these things are designed to put you in a flow state where you you virtually cannot sleep.
• 37:53
  And you will not sleep, and you'll be on that third day without sleep, playing video games all night long, wondering why you're seeing things and hearing things that are not there.
• 38:01
  Then we wonder where the the mental illness is coming from.
• 38:05
  We've got an industry that wants to sell you, you know, big pharma.
• 38:09
  We've got the cell phone industry, we've got the video game industry, and all of them want to steal your sleep and steal your time and take your money, and and it comes back to cell phones in the school.
• 38:19
  Why don't we know that?
• 38:20
  Why don't we know that half of all states bans cell phones in the school?
• 38:23
  Everybody approaches the item like it's some kind of this.
• 38:26
  Well, let's get rid of cell phones in the school.
• 38:29
  No, no, you can't do that.
• 38:31
  You're not informed that the whole state of New York's already done that and already seen tremendous benefits from it.
• 38:37
  That's a great thing.
• 38:38
  My chart at my charter school in Orange, we've banned cell phones.
• 38:42
  The kid shows up with a cell phone that can turn it into the front office and they'll get it back at the end of the day.
• 38:47
  We want kids walking around talking to each other, sitting at lunch having a conversation.
• 38:51
  We don't have them on their phone on social media during school hours whatsoever.
• 38:56
  You know, I I um I talked about the link between uh uh between sleep deprivation suicide, and uh and tweenators, 10, 11, 12-year-old girls, twin age suicide break tripled in a decade.
• 39:08
  And that was pre-pandemic.
• 39:09
  They've really gone up since then.
• 39:12
  And I had a police officer come up and during a break.
• 39:15
  He said, uh he said, I had one of those twin age girls.
• 39:18
  He said she was a good girl, she was an A student.
• 39:21
  She said, Dad, it's embarrassing.
• 39:23
  You don't have to take my cell phone every night.
• 39:25
  He said, fam, family good policy, cell phone with a charger, you go to bed.
• 39:29
  Said, you don't have to take my phone, you can trust me, it's embarrassing.
• 39:32
  He said, Okay, trust you, keep your phone.
• 39:34
  He said, A little while later, she took her life.
• 39:37
  He said, My little girl took her life.
• 39:39
  And he said, We never knew the hell she was living in until we looked at the text messages on her cell phone night after night of ceaseless, relentless, vicious bullying.
• 39:51
  And he can't just ignore that.
• 39:52
  We're not wired that way.
• 39:54
  He he he said he said it was heartrending syrup all night long, night after night, trying to defend her.
• 40:00
  Of they were taking turns, they were taking shifts.
• 40:04
  And he said, I knew my little girl was bullied to death.
• 40:09
  What I didn't understand until now.
• 40:12
  She was sleep deprived and tormented and bullied to death in front of my eyes, and I let it happen.
• 40:18
  He said, I can't ignore that text message in the middle of the night.
• 40:22
  Expect our kids to.
• 40:25
  Why wasn't he educated?
• 40:27
  Why don't we know this?
• 40:29
  There's a whole industry out there that wants a cell phone to your to your kindergartener and take it to bed at night without any knowledge whatsoever, the harmful effects that's happening.
• 40:38
  How old do you think somebody should be before a parent gives them a cell phone?
• 40:42
  18.
• 40:45
  No, no adult has ever said I cursed my parents for the video games I couldn't play.
• 40:51
  No adult has ever said I cursed my parents for the for the movies I couldn't watch and the TV shows I couldn't watch.
• 40:58
  They say, I blessed my parents.
• 41:00
  I learned how to read.
• 41:01
  I learned we played board games.
• 41:04
  We were outside, we had a life.
• 41:16
  And uh, and if you absolutely wanted to have one, then that's the way to go.
• 41:20
  There's phones that are text only with a limited number of people that has no screen on it, other than that the text messaging, and that's all you want.
• 41:29
  You don't want a smartphone.
• 41:31
  Mark, you you feel pretty strong about that as well, limiting cell phone access to kids.
• 41:36
  I don't think that there's a net positive for cell phones in minors at all.
• 41:43
  And so I believe that cell phones should not be in the hands of anyone that's uh underage at this point, uh, because I don't really think there's any valid argument for it anymore.
• 41:58
  Um, every piece of technology had to be digested.
• 42:01
  We had automobiles for 50 years before some genius said, you know, kids shouldn't be driving these things for 50 years.
• 42:09
  If you could reach the pedals and look over the the dashboard, you could drive.
• 42:13
  It was you know, wait a minute, wait a minute.
• 42:15
  So the automobile industry said, Yeah, you know, we accept regulation, no big deal.
• 42:20
  But the tobacco industry fought tooth and nailed decade after decade to keep selling tobacco to children, and and this is what we got is industry after industry following the path of the tobacco industry.
• 42:33
  The firearms industry never said, Oh, we we have a right to sell firearms to five-year-olds.
• 42:38
  They never said that.
• 42:39
  The automobile industry, they embraced regulation on their product when it came to kids, pretty much.
• 42:44
  But we've got all these industries.
• 42:47
  Aren't they making the video game industry?
• 42:49
  The cell phone aren't they making enough money selling their product to adults.
• 42:53
  Why do they have to make vastly more money and market their products to children?
• 42:58
  Alcohol, tobacco, sex, drugs, firearms.
• 43:01
  There's so many things adults can have, but kids can't.
• 43:03
  Yeah, so yeah, you know, we're fighting all these industries, and we pay this tragic price, the sleep deprivation, the mental illness, the uh the violent fixation and the the video games.
• 43:17
  I one of my books that I commend your attention is uh assassination generation, and uh and it, you know, it was California in 2005, the brain scan data, California in 2005 overwhelmingly voted to regulate children's access to violent video games.
• 43:35
  Hollywood said, We're cool with this.
• 43:36
  Silicon Bellet said, Yeah, Arnold Schwarzenander signed a law of California, 2005, overwhelmingly voted to regulate children's access to violent video games, and the video game industry fought all the way to the Supreme Court.
• 43:50
  They said we have a constitutional First Amendment right to sell any game to any kid at any age, and they con seven old men, seven out of nine who who never played Kong in their life, they're overturned the California law.
• 44:04
  Now, how many people knew that?
• 44:05
  And the dissenting opinions are really important, and they're all in my book, assassination generation.
• 44:10
  But they want to shove that down the memory hole.
• 44:12
  This data and the brain scan data was overwhelming.
• 44:15
  The state of California regulating violent video games, Hollywood, Silicon Valley, we're cool with this, and an industry you fought all the way to the Supreme Court to sell any game to any kid at any age, and and we don't even know that.
• 44:28
  So these it's as much a parent a parental problem as it is a regulation problem, though, too.
• 44:34
  In in so many ways, but you know, um, when I when I do my presentations, uh sleep deprivation, we lose more cops to suicide than every other line of duty death put together.
• 44:46
  And all my first responders and all my military suicide is just this huge issue.
• 44:51
  And I talk about sleep deprivation, and I talked about my dad started smoking in 1941 when he was five years old.
• 45:00
  He said he he plunked a nickel on the counter at the general store, couldn't even look over the counter, plunked a nickel on the counter, bought a pack of bullderm tobacco and uh rolling papers, and uh started smoking five years old.
• 45:11
  And I show ads, you know, as a camel ad that says more doctors smoke camels in near the cigarette.
• 45:16
  I put another cat, you know, as your dentist, I would recommend Viceroy cigarettes.
• 45:20
  Oh, Dennis say Viceroy doxy camels with this.
• 45:23
  So his parents didn't know that cigarettes were harmful, and and the parents don't know that the video games and the cell phones are harmful.
• 45:32
  We know that we're supposed to have a fire exit sign, and we know that we're supposed to have fire sprinklers in the school because it's the law.
• 45:41
  The state of California tried to pass a law and the video game industry fought all the way to the Supreme Court, and then they shoved it down the memory hole.
• 45:49
  That's where informed dissent comes in.
• 45:51
  That's why I'm just so proud of you guys and be a part of what you're doing.
• 45:55
  Uh getting the information out, and all your listeners out there that are pushing the envelope.
• 46:01
  You know, uh uh my my little service dog.
• 46:04
  I'm I'm I've a hearing loss, my little service dog.
• 46:07
  I know this is pretty much audio only, but this is Charlie.
• 46:10
  He's uh he's uh he's a uh a miniature poodle, he's 11 pounds.
• 46:15
  He thinks he's a canine, but he's really like a K2 or a K3.
• 46:18
  He's he's pretty cute, but he's a good little guy, and uh, but he costs people think a service dog costs you know 20, 30,000 dollars.
• 46:26
  Well, Charlie's a hearing dog, he costs a thousand dollars, he's a time X, you know, nothing wrong with buying a Rolex, nothing wrong with selling a Rolex, but you can you can you can get your own service dog, you can train them yourself, and and they can get the job done for you.
• 46:42
  Charlie, it took a day to train him, the alarm goes off, he gets a treat.
• 46:45
  Now, when the alarm goes off in the morning, can't sleep with the herd aids in alarm goes off in the morning, he's in my face.
• 46:51
  He does not even he does not believe in the snooze button.
• 46:54
  This news button is spawned at the devil.
• 46:58
  But I want my treat, and I want it right now.
• 47:00
  But the point is I wonder if I can train my cats to do that.
• 47:04
  Oh, yeah, you know, uh but people think there's all kinds of hoops you got to jump through to get a service dog.
• 47:10
  You know, it's just to get on the plane, and Charlie's great on the plane, he's he rides on my little sling, and but to get on the plane, you've got to get a form filled out ahead of time with the airlines, and and they've got to be they've got to be disciplined, and there's things they got to do.
• 47:24
  But the point is everybody thinks, and and and not that the service dog industry is bad, not at all, but everybody thinks the only way to do this is to spend 20, 30,000 when it doesn't have to be that way.
• 47:38
  You can put your own dog, you can train your dog.
• 47:41
  There's no great certification, just don't don't embarrass us by having some so-called service dog that's not under control.
• 47:49
  But the point is that it's about being informed, and it's about dissenting.
• 47:54
  No, your kid doesn't need a cell phone, and no, there's there's no no positive value for any minor to have a cell phone, and and your kid will not curse you for the phone they didn't have, you know.
• 48:04
  Well, speaking of speaking of dissenting, and I know this is a little bit off topic, but you know, as as we speak, the United States is basically at war in Iran with lots of military assets.
• 48:16
  Uh, there's a lot of folks that thinks we shouldn't be there.
• 48:19
  Uh, there's a lot of folks that um don't support the military action that we're doing right now.
• 48:24
  What's your perspective on what's going on in Iran?
• 48:26
  Well, I think we're popping a great big festering zip that's needed to be popped for a long time.
• 48:32
  I mean, I remember the Beirut barracks and hundreds of marines killed by Hezbollah founded by Iran.
• 48:37
  I remember when the Iranian embassy, an act of war to take with Jimmy Carter was president, an act of war to take our embassy and to hold them hostage for over a year, and that the very day that Ronald Reagan became president, boom, they were released.
• 48:52
  But we've put up with these folks for too long.
• 48:54
  And and and frankly, we're doing it with with just no just it's just uh my grandson was deployed for the 12-day war.
• 49:04
  Um the initial hit on the Iranian uh uh uh nukes.
• 49:09
  Um, my grandson received an army commendation medal with V div uh with with C device for under combat conditions.
• 49:16
  What's what service is he in?
• 49:18
  He's an army, army intel, smart kid.
• 49:20
  He went intel is his his grandpa's an infantry officer, but he's a smart kid, he went intel, but they were under fire, they were they you know, we lost we this last one with the they made a dead hit on one of those Intel centers, and we lost some of our kids.
• 49:34
  It could have been my grandson, but they are so supportive right now of taking these guys down, these are evil, evil people.
• 49:42
  They've they've they've fostered evil across the globe.
• 49:45
  Uh there are they're providing oil to China, just I I and I and there's so much yet to come.
• 49:51
  Uh, the Kurds in one of the greatest things come from Iraq is Kurdistan and Northern I Northern Iraq are our special ops love them.
• 50:00
  They they're the ones with the female fighters with the long braids.
• 50:03
  They're they're very secular.
• 50:05
  They're they're they're uh uh they're an Islamic nation, but they're the Kurds are amazing people.
• 50:10
  Everybody are soldiers, our military loves them.
• 50:14
  So the Kurds are attacked from every direction, but people hate them.
• 50:17
  We we have the most prosperous, secular, beautiful part of the Middle East right now is Kurdistan.
• 50:24
  And there are a lot of Kurds in uh in Western uh Iran, and the Kurds have all pulled out of Syria.
• 50:33
  We know that they're there in Iran.
• 50:35
  It's just a matter of time that the other shoe is gonna drop in Iran.
• 50:39
  I think the model we're gonna see potentially, it could be a lot like former Yugoslavia.
• 50:45
  My wife and I visited a while back.
• 50:47
  We visited Serbia and Montenegro.
• 50:49
  We we visited the Albania and Croatia.
• 50:53
  It all used to be Yugoslavia, it used to be oppressed, and we had the breakup of former Yugoslavia, and and today we have all these ethnic groups that have been stable and prosperous.
• 51:04
  I think we may see Luristan, we see Baluchistan.
• 51:08
  Well, we the Azerbaijan could double their population and their size overnight by embracing the Azerbaijan part of Iran.
• 51:16
  And meanwhile, we'll see the Iranian people themselves being able to have freedom.
• 51:21
  Maybe it'll happen, maybe not, maybe it's a pipe dream, but we haven't seen the Kurds move yet.
• 51:26
  And uh, and there's the other shoe ready to drop over there.
• 51:30
  I think we see some neat things happening, and what's happened so far is is good all by itself.
• 51:35
  So I assume you're in touch.
• 51:37
  I assume you you've got contacts pretty high up in the military.
• 51:41
  Are they pleased with how this is being uh executed so far?
• 51:46
  Oh, I don't have a lot of contacts.
• 51:48
  I'm just an old soldier, and but everybody I've talked with are deeply pleased.
• 51:52
  Um, the the recruiting in this current administration is just to the roof.
• 51:56
  Good things are happening.
• 51:58
  Uh our military is is deeply supportive across the board.
• 52:02
  You know, the recruiting during the Biden administration was horrific.
• 52:06
  Uh, we were just hurting, we were we were a hollow armed forces.
• 52:10
  Recruiting was just hurting.
• 52:11
  Nobody wanted to serve under Biden, no one even had stirred the nation that that man led.
• 52:16
  And then magnificent young men and women have enlisted since this administration recruiting is up.
• 52:22
  Good things are happening.
• 52:24
  Uh, it's a great time to be an American, you know.
• 52:26
  And last year in law enforcement, my law enforcement officers, even regardless of their politics.
• 52:30
  Last year, we we went in in 2021 or 2020, with the George Floyd effect.
• 52:38
  We had the single greatest annual increase in homicides we've ever seen.
• 52:43
  And now last year, I never thought we turned.
• 52:46
  We had the Ferguson effect, in which 15 and 16 we saw homicides explode as bad as anything we've ever seen in the 60s.
• 52:53
  The medical technology is holding down the number of homicides, and then in 2020, we saw 30 percent, but almost three times worse annual increase in homicides anything we've ever seen before.
• 53:04
  And in 25, the all-time lowest murder rate in recorded history.
• 53:12
  Who would have thought?
• 53:13
  I would never thought we could undo the Ferguson effect, undo the George Floyd effect, and come down to the all-time lowest now.
• 53:20
  That murder rate should be held down by medical technology.
• 53:24
  The murder rate is not that good of a measure.
• 53:26
  Don't get too carried away.
• 53:27
  But still, who would have thought that we could have turned around from from just record uh explosions of homicides to the all-time record low number of homicides?
• 53:38
  Uh, the law enforcement community, the first responders.
• 53:41
  My granddaughter is not the politics I'd like her to be, but she suddenly found out that whoa, I didn't get taxed on my dips this year.
• 53:49
  Oh, that's pretty cool.
• 53:52
  My granddaughter is rethinking things, you know.
• 53:55
  Before I forget, how do people get a hold of you?
• 53:57
  How do they follow you and find out where you're gonna be speaking around the country?
• 54:02
  Grossmanon Truth.com, WW.
• 54:05
  Grossman on truth.com, or Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman on uh on LinkedIn or or or or any of the social media out there.
• 54:14
  We've got a good social media life, and we're building that.
• 54:16
  We love the followers, we love to get the info out.
• 54:19
  See what I've been up to.
• 54:20
  My tombstone is a bench.
• 54:22
  Check that out and see what that's about.
• 54:24
  Uh I'll be 70 in August.
• 54:26
  I'm gonna cut a video with me elevating my feet on my tombstone and knocking out push-ups, 70 years old.
• 54:31
  So you how many can you do?
• 54:33
  Who does who can do more?
• 54:34
  You or Bobby Kennedy.
• 54:37
  Bobby's got me beat.
• 54:38
  Yeah, Bobby's an animal.
• 54:41
  He's pretty impressive.
• 54:42
  I I wouldn't even want to.
• 54:44
  Uh Bobby's a good man.
• 54:45
  I'm a I'm a big fan of what he's doing, and as I assume you guys are given where you're from.
• 54:50
  Oh, for sure.
• 54:50
  Yeah, he's uh talk talking about combat, what he's doing right now is a form of combat.
• 54:56
  It is, it is, and so you're on the side of good things, folks.
• 55:00
  And all you listeners out there just know that uh our military is is standing tall, our law enforcement is is breathing easy after all-time record number cops murdered in the line of duty.
• 55:11
  Uh, we're turning the tide in so many ways.
• 55:14
  Uh, believe in who you are, believe in what you do, your sheepdogs, armed Americans, making the world a better and safer place.
• 55:20
  And I I've been hogging all of the the stuff here and eagerly like to know what you and and Mark got to say about all that, but what a privilege and an honor to spend to be on board with you and all of that.
• 55:32
  Yeah, well, thanks for joining us.
• 55:33
  Any plans that you're aware of on your calendar to be out in southern California.
• 55:37
  Uh put me in, coach.
• 55:39
  Bring me in.
• 55:39
  Uh I love to be there.
• 55:41
  You're in Virginia, I can't remember.
• 55:44
  Where do you live?
• 55:45
  I I'm in the St.
• 55:46
  Louis area.
• 55:47
  Okay.
• 55:48
  Yeah, yeah.
• 55:49
  But you know, uh a couple nights a week, cod go busy, clean underwear back on the road.
• 55:55
  It's a good ride, it's a good life.
• 55:57
  I love it.
• 55:58
  Um thank thank you for your work.
• 56:01
  Thank you for your mission.
• 56:02
  Thank you for your gifts and and sharing it with so many people, because as I mentioned, me coming into contact with you many, many years ago has made quite a difference in my perspective, and certainly for the safety of the kids that I'm involved with.
• 56:16
  So thank you for thank you for doing that.
• 56:19
  And uh, of course, thank you for coming on Informed Descent.
• 56:23
  It's been an honor.
• 56:24
  Thank you guys.
• 56:24
  God bless you, and God bless America.
• 56:30
  You've been listening to Informed Descent with Dr.
• 56:33
  Jeff Barkey, board certified primary care physician, and Dr.
• 56:37
  Mark McDonald, board certified child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist.
• 56:43
  Informed dissent, the intersection of health care and politics.