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Blindness - Day in the Life with Mike Hess · Accessible Community

• 0:00
  Mike: There's not just one way to be blind.
• 0:02
  Mike: And unfortunately, way too many organizations that are out there are just like, " Nope, this is the only way to be blind".
• 0:08
  Mike: And I'm like, "oh gosh, no.
• 0:10
  Mike: There are so many ways to overcome obstacles."
• 0:18
  Taylor: Welcome to the Accessible Community Podcast, where we will be exploring disability, aging, and accessibility through lived experiences.
• 0:27
  Taylor: Join us to deepen your understanding in these areas, and for show notes, you can find them at accessiblecommunity.org slash podcasts.
• 0:37
  Taylor: Be accessible and be inclusive.
• 0:40
  Taylor: Hey everyone, and welcome to a new episode of Day in the Life, a podcast series brought to you by the great people at Accessible Community.
• 0:54
  Taylor: Our main goals for this series are to educate, raise awareness, and provide a platform for people with disabilities to share their story and their lived experiences.
• 1:05
  Taylor: And so we're going to be covering a different disability each month.
• 1:09
  Taylor: And this month we are talking about blindness.
• 1:11
  Taylor: And so before I pass it over to my next guest to introduce himself, just a quick introduction for myself.
• 1:19
  Taylor: I am your host for this series.
• 1:21
  Taylor: My name is Taylor Dorward, and I'm a certified accessibility professional as well as a disability advocate.
• 1:28
  Taylor: And I myself have cortical blindness, so I'm very interested for this edition because I love hearing stories from other people with blindness as well, and because it can vary greatly depending on who you talk to.
• 1:41
  Taylor: So I'm looking forward to it.
• 1:43
  Taylor: Now I am a white male with short brown hair, blue eyes, and a short brown beard.
• 1:48
  Taylor: And with that, I will go ahead and pass it over to my next guest, Mike, and let him introduce himself.
• 1:56
  Mike: Well, thank you, Taylor, for having me.
• 1:57
  Mike: Really appreciate it.
• 1:58
  Mike: Uh, my name is Mike Hess.
• 2:00
  Mike: Uh I'm in my mid-50s and I've been I've been blind my entire life.
• 2:04
  Mike: So legal blindness or blindness is all I've ever known.
• 2:07
  Mike: I grew up in uh northeast Ohio, uh right on Lake Erie, right in the Great Lakes Sea region, and moved.
• 2:14
  Mike: My mom moved my brother and I out to the Denver metro area where I've been ever since in 1985.
• 2:19
  Mike: So uh this is where I call home.
• 2:23
  Mike: And I've been a uh technical professional for a long time, yeah, because I'm I'm that kind of old.
• 2:32
  Mike: So thank you for having me on the program, Taylor.
• 2:35
  Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:36
  Taylor: So you said you obviously have blindness.
• 2:38
  Taylor: Can you tell us a little bit more?
• 2:40
  Taylor: Because as you're certainly aware, there are varying types.
• 2:44
  Taylor: So can you explain yours to us?
• 2:48
  Mike: Sure.
• 2:48
  Mike: Yeah, no, it you're gosh, you're not wrong.
• 2:51
  Mike: Like the varying degrees of what uh, you know, blindness, legal blindness, and people's conditions, and uh they're they're so varied.
• 3:00
  Mike: I've got what they call a cone rod dystrophy, uh, which is a big bucket of they they have no idea what's going on.
• 3:06
  Mike: But essentially how my eyesight was detected uh initially was I had a blind spot, right?
• 3:13
  Mike: Dead center of my vision, both eyes, and my retinal condition started with that, and that's and your your dead center vision is where all your acuity is.
• 3:23
  Mike: So I remember in kindergarten actually, um, like I I couldn't like in I'm this kind of old, so back in the 70s, you know, like to get through kindergarten, all you had to do is like color in the great big letter M or the great big letter O, that sort of thing.
• 3:36
  Mike: But I, with my eyesight, I couldn't always color in the lines.
• 3:40
  Mike: And so uh even in kindergarten, you know, the teachers thought I was slow, and I'm I almost slow, I'm slow, but that's not the reason why I wasn't color uh coloring in the lines.
• 3:48
  Mike: So, but it was first grade, and I was the kind of um student kid, uh still am.
• 3:54
  Mike: Like I, you know, I wanted to be in the back of the class telling jokes, that sort of thing, being being kind of a smart ass.
• 4:00
  Mike: That was who I am uh them then and now.
• 4:03
  Mike: And uh I teacher was asking, like, you know, what's what's on the board?
• 4:07
  Mike: And I'm like, I have no idea.
• 4:09
  Mike: Um, so it started way back then in first grade, and then uh small town in Ohio, though, though my mom took me to the um the the you know the local optometrist, local eye doctor, and the the uh investment that that particular office had in their equipment, obviously it varies depending on you know your an organization's budget, that sort of thing.
• 4:31
  Mike: They they clearly didn't have the right equipment though to diagnose me.
• 4:35
  Mike: And so they just told my mom that I was faking it, and here's a pair of placebo glasses, and you know, keep them six feet from you know the TV and blah, blah, blah.
• 4:45
  Mike: So, but my mom knew within you know hours, days that you know that was wasn't the truth.
• 4:50
  Mike: And so just kept uh next town over, next town over.
• 4:52
  Mike: I ended up at the Cleveland Clinic in um obviously Cleveland, Ohio, renowned I Institute, and uh they did a bunch of experimental uh surgeries on me, and that's where they uh determined that I had a retinal condition.
• 5:05
  Mike: They they misdiagnosed it back in the 70s, but they were on the right uh kind of vertical with me with uh retinal degeneration and that sort of thing.
• 5:13
  Mike: So um, so and that started out with uh so no central vision, and then as I got older, my uh my peripheral vision continued to uh uh deteriorate.
• 5:23
  Mike: So so mine went from like the opposite of what a lot of people do from like an RP retinititis pigment pigmentosa, where it's kind of a tunnel where they uh they lose their peripheral and and uh end up kind of going inward.
• 5:35
  Mike: Mine was the opposite.
• 5:37
  Mike: I had no central vision and I continued to lose my peripheral.
• 5:42
  Taylor: That's really interesting.
• 5:43
  Taylor: I am aware of Retinitis Pigmentosa, but I always thought it was outward to end.
• 5:48
  Taylor: So it's interesting to know it can go the other way.
• 5:51
  Taylor: And and with disabilities, as I'm sure you're well aware, it's a massive spectrum.
• 5:56
  Taylor: But what I find really interesting is even something like blindness itself is a spectrum because there are so many different types and severities, like like you said, you have Retininess Pigmentosa, but your your case differs from others.
• 6:13
  Taylor: So it's it's very interesting hearing how it affected you.
• 6:17
  Mike: Yeah, and it's basically I was never able to legally drive cars because you're all of your acuity, and that's that's really what determines legal blindness, is your ability to legally drive cars.
• 6:27
  Mike: So uh, because I had never had um uh central vision, which is where all the detail is, you know, I could never see well enough, even when my peripheral vision was um quite good.
• 6:39
  Mike: Your your peripheral vision is not meant for detail.
• 6:42
  Mike: And so uh so therefore, like reading, small print, uh driving cars, uh just all of those kind of particular things I couldn't do.
• 6:51
  Mike: So um now, like in my when I when I ask people about their eye condition, I usually just say, you know, do you like it, you know, if they have some functional vision, I say, do you like it lighter or darker?
• 7:02
  Mike: Uh do you have uh central vision or or peripheral vision, right?
• 7:06
  Mike: Like that those are kind of the like the that's where I go with when I ask people like what their condition is is like.
• 7:15
  Mike: It's just it's not um because there are all kinds of conditions, but those are kind of the the like the things I found within the blindness spectrum that are that are fairly common, you know, uh within all conditions is just those questions.
• 7:29
  Taylor: So Yeah, and that's great to have those kinds of conversations because they can really be mutually beneficial, especially in the workplace, but even in social life as well.
• 7:39
  Mike: Oh, for sure.
• 7:40
  Mike: Yeah, for sure.
• 7:41
  Taylor: So whenever talking about your blindness, uh do you have any preference when it comes to using person first or identity first language?
• 7:50
  Mike: So uh very cognizant, especially in my role, being uh particularly like I always want to make sure like I use people with disabilities, right?
• 8:00
  Mike: So uh like in my in my own personal network, um, you know, people who know me, like I say I'm a blind guy, right?
• 8:07
  Mike: Like, and that's uh, but that's me.
• 8:09
  Mike: When I'm talking about the broader community, though, it's very much people with disabilities, you know.
• 8:14
  Mike: Uh and I'm just this way when it comes to uh, you know, people are people first, so and so I'm very cognizant, very sensitive to uh that as a concept.
• 8:27
  Mike: Uh for for me and me personally, people who know me, like I just like yeah, I'm a blind guy.
• 8:33
  Mike: Like this is you know, I'm a blind dude, like this is just who I am.
• 8:36
  Mike: Um, it's a part of me, it doesn't define me.
• 8:38
  Mike: So uh, but yes, I very much use uh people first language.
• 8:42
  Taylor: Nice.
• 8:43
  Taylor: This always is a very interesting topic, and it varies greatly depending on who you ask.
• 8:48
  Taylor: So appreciate you sharing your your thoughts there.
• 8:52
  Mike: Sure thing.
• 8:54
  Taylor: So can you tell us more about your work?
• 8:57
  Mike: Sure.
• 8:58
  Mike: Yeah, I'm uh well, I grew up, I grew up in technology uh decades ago now.
• 9:02
  Mike: So back in the early mid-90s, started out as a computer programmer.
• 9:07
  Mike: I was actually part of a uh workforce development initiative uh spurred on by IBM.
• 9:13
  Mike: They didn't call it workforce development back in the day, but that's exactly what it was.
• 9:17
  Mike: And it was an immersive um technology program.
• 9:20
  Mike: Uh IBM was the first tech stack company in the world to fully embrace people with disabilities as a viable talent solution shortly after the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in uh July of 1990.
• 9:33
  Mike: So one of the schools that they sent out grant dollar scholars uh grant dollars to was uh Community College of Denver, downtown Denver.
• 9:40
  Mike: Uh basically, I in the early mid-90s, I just I learned how to be a computer programmer.
• 9:45
  Mike: Um, found out like, you know, kind of uh incredibly fortuitous timing because in the mid-90s, the first tech bubble was being created due to Y2K or year 2000.
• 9:57
  Mike: Um and if you could spell Y2K and you had any kind of coding skills uh back at those times, you were guaranteed a gig.
• 10:04
  Mike: And that's how I got started in technology.
• 10:06
  Mike: All my experience, almost 20 years, was in the private sector.
• 10:10
  Mike: I ended up managing seven, eight-figure projects over my career.
• 10:13
  Mike: Um, got lots more certifications to my um to my name.
• 10:18
  Mike: And then ultimately I left my six-figure income 13 years ago now to start uh Blind Institute of Technology BIT to address the uh really the egregious un or underemployment for not only blind low vision, but the broader disability community.
• 10:37
  Mike: Um over my nearly 20-year career, like I was always the token blind person uh in my in my org.
• 10:44
  Mike: Um, never bumped into anybody in a wheelchair with my cane, uh, never heard of anybody using sign language as our primary means of communication.
• 10:51
  Mike: Uh, neurodiversity wasn't even a topic.
• 10:53
  Mike: And yet I worked in tech.
• 10:54
  Mike: I clearly worked around people who were on the spectrum, but they were just considered eccentric.
• 10:58
  Mike: And so my six-figure income to start BIT to address the egregious un or underemployment for the broader disability community.
• 11:06
  Mike: And and uh what's unique about BIT uh as a nonprofit is that we act as a nonprofit staffing agency.
• 11:13
  Mike: So um over my career, at least a quarter of my team members were always from some staffing agency.
• 11:21
  Mike: And so I knew that business model well.
• 11:22
  Mike: It's ubiquitous, it's a tried and true Fortune 100 business model.
• 11:26
  Mike: So BIT started out as a uh nonprofit staffing agency helping people with disabilities find employment opportunities.
• 11:33
  Mike: And we've been successful in getting people placed in very large brands uh out there, Fortune 1, Fortune 200 companies um out there to include uh companies like um JP Morgan Chase and CVS Aetna, uh Allstate, Salesforce, uh it's just uh a whole host, Davita Healthcare, a whole host of brands across there, getting people with disabilities, gainfully employed, competitive integrated employment opportunities in uh within technology.
• 12:02
  Mike: Technology is a great vertical because you don't need a four, six, eight-year degree to be successful.
• 12:07
  Mike: You can do a thing called cert stack, uh cert stacking or certification stacking, where uh you can get certifications within you know the technologies.
• 12:16
  Mike: Um, and so we were the first organization in the country back in 2017, so almost nine years ago now, to put um six blind low vision individuals and one neurodiverse individual through the Salesforce Administrator certification.
• 12:29
  Mike: And we chose Salesforce as our uh flagship workforce development initiative because Salesforce out of the box is incredibly digitally accessible.
• 12:38
  Mike: So for screen reader users like myself, Salesforce works out of the box, which is fantastic.
• 12:43
  Mike: And so we uh we put those seven individuals through.
• 12:46
  Mike: Six out of the seven individuals we ended up finding employment for because everything we do is from the employment lens.
• 12:52
  Mike: And then uh fast forward to 2020, we became the official training provider for Salesforce globally for people with disabilities.
• 12:58
  Mike: And then in 20, that was uh so 2021, we became the very first registered apprenticeship program for people with disabilities in the United States for the U.S.
• 13:07
  Mike: Department of Labor.
• 13:08
  Mike: And then in uh 2024, our model from academy to apprenticeship has been so modestly successful that we received an eight million dollar U.S.
• 13:19
  Mike: Department of Education federal grant to scale our apprenticeship program.
• 13:24
  Mike: So um, so everything that we do is is from the pan disability community perspective.
• 13:30
  Mike: Uh, we've successfully been able to get uh people who are uh deaf, hard of hearing, blind, low vision, uh neurodiverse to include ADHD, uh folks who uh other uh mental invisible disabilities, mental illness from bipolarism, uh anxiety disorder, um, motor skills impaired to include paraplegic quadripallegics through our trainings um certified and employed.
• 13:53
  Mike: Um, 100% of our instructors also identify with the disability.
• 13:57
  Mike: So we eat our own cooking here at BIT.
• 14:00
  Taylor: Awesome.
• 14:01
  Taylor: That's it's wonderful to see companies like yours who are empowering others to scale up and find valuable work that that means something to them.
• 14:10
  Taylor: And I've been uh an advocate of public speaker on employment topics and just accessibility overall for about seven years.
• 14:18
  Taylor: And one statistic I often refer to from the U.S.
• 14:22
  Taylor: Bureau of Labor statistics is uh just showing a percentage of how many disabled Americans are currently employed.
• 14:30
  Taylor: And they began tracking in 2008, and that number has been steadily increasing by like half per half a percent to a percent a year, and it's it's still lower, but it's steadily rising.
• 14:43
  Taylor: So it's it's probably a big part in companies like yours who are in embracing neurodiversity and people with disabilities and providing them with an opportunity that they're not having a lot of luck finding.
• 14:59
  Mike: Well, in today's, and I I love the fact that you're you're staying on top of the statistics.
• 15:03
  Mike: The the numbers, the numbers are uh they they they are better.
• 15:07
  Mike: They got even better during the pandemic, and uh they've been unfortunately decreasing as of late.
• 15:12
  Mike: But people with disabilities as a protected class are up against versus other protected class members, you know, gender, ethnicity, uh relationship orientation.
• 15:22
  Mike: Uh people with disabilities were the only community that has to ring a very legal nebulous bell called reasonable accommodations.
• 15:29
  Mike: And most organizations and most hiring managers really know nothing about reasonable accommodations.
• 15:35
  Mike: And so that's why we always lead with uh, you know, like within the Salesforce ecosystem, Salesforce is the reasonable accommodation.
• 15:42
  Mike: So that way uh we kind of take that fear or that stigma or perception off the table.
• 15:49
  Taylor: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 15:50
  Taylor: And a big part of these interviews is yes, want to learn about what you do, but like as we were saying before, we're we're people first.
• 15:58
  Taylor: And so let's learn a little bit more about Mike as a person.
• 16:02
  Taylor: So, like outside of where do you have like hobbies or passions you like to do?
• 16:08
  Mike: Well, if you're talking to a workaholic, my friend, uh, but yes, I uh no, my my virtues that I live by are family, health, and equity.
• 16:16
  Mike: Clearly, I've built a business around equity, but our I'm very much a family dude.
• 16:22
  Mike: I I'm I'm a pretty boring guy.
• 16:25
  Mike: I'm not like uh like well, my my wife will say I'm boring.
• 16:29
  Mike: I like to say I'm simple, uh, very much uh family first.
• 16:33
  Mike: Uh we've got three kids, we've got uh five grandkids, you know, very much focused on our family.
• 16:38
  Mike: We do a lot of things together from a family perspective.
• 16:42
  Mike: The the holidays, like we have lots of traditions that are, you know, since we're in holiday season here in 2025, uh it's uh a lot, a lot of family traditions, uh a lot of gatherings, get- togethers, but even over the summer, you know, uh I'm forced to go camping a couple times a year.
• 17:00
  Mike: Um, you know, and it's it's it all of this is um, you know, good, good family fun.
• 17:05
  Mike: Uh from a health perspective, you know, it really, you know, I I make sure I way back in the day I was a martial arts instructor and um love to read.
• 17:16
  Mike: I'm an avid reader, uh leadership business-oriented uh books.
• 17:20
  Mike: Like I'm a oh my gosh, what uh what else?
• 17:23
  Mike: Uh is there anything else that's really um yeah, I think that's that's kind of me in a nutshell.
• 17:29
  Mike: You know, I travel um travel the world, you know, uh many times all by myself between Uber and airplanes, like I uh travel the world all by myself, which is uh I love the challenge.
• 17:40
  Mike: And um I always tell people like, hey, I I find angels everywhere I go, and that's uh the some kind soul that'll see me in a in a situation where I need help.
• 17:50
  Mike: And so uh, you know, between technology and angels, I get to where I need to go across the across the globe.
• 17:57
  Taylor: Yeah, that that's a wonderful point, and something I don't think gets talked about quite enough, but I became blind at 18.
• 18:05
  Taylor: And as you can imagine, there's a transition there, like attaining the disability a little later in life, like wanting to maintain my independence and not ask for help.
• 18:17
  Taylor: But over time I started to realize like there was nothing wrong with asking for help.
• 18:23
  Taylor: And every person that ever asked, I can't think of a single time where someone said no.
• 18:29
  Taylor: It just blew my mind how just humans at our nature want help.
• 18:34
  Taylor: And so that was very refreshing to learn that.
• 18:36
  Taylor: And it's always nice to let other people with disabilities know that because they may be in the stage where they don't want to ask because they might be scared how they're gonna have it be received, or so they're gonna be feeling judged or whatever it may be.
• 18:52
  Mike: I uh depend dependent on the uh nonprofit organization, right?
• 18:57
  Mike: Like there are some disability organizations that are like, uh, oh hell no, you're not gonna, you're not gonna help me.
• 19:03
  Mike: And it's just I and I I appreciate like the independent nature because uh what we don't want to do is look like helpless people with disabilities.
• 19:13
  Mike: And we're not helpless, but there are times that quite honestly I need help and I'll get to where I need to go.
• 19:18
  Mike: But I'm also uh very aware of my time and appointments and everything else.
• 19:23
  Mike: And if somebody asks if if I need whatever, like I'm like, hey, yeah, can I borrow a shoulder to get to X, Y, and Z, or uh put me, you know, in the right direction or give me some information, you know, because then I can use technology, I can use apps and whatnot to to get me to where I need to go.
• 19:39
  Mike: So uh I'm I'm a big fan, and I I quite honestly, my experience and I've I really do think like the the the story of my life would just actually give more people across the globe this like pause of like, oh, okay, I guess, you know, because I've been helped by people from from the from the right, the left, they're they're red, they're blue, they're black, they're white, they're gay, they're straight, they're christian, they're muslim.
• 20:02
  Mike: It doesn't like I've been helped by I I guarantee you everybody like and it's it's it's just this amazing thing.
• 20:09
  Mike: Like I I believe that you know my disability and my uh first of all, um it helps not to be uh a j about it.
• 20:17
  Mike: Um it really does like just just you know be open for and and not everybody knows exactly how to help.
• 20:24
  Mike: And the onus isn't on them to know exactly how to help you for you as a person with a disability, the onus is on you to explain and say, hey, this is what help looks like to me, right?
• 20:34
  Mike: It's this is you know, so again, they they don't always know how to help, but if they're willing to help, then they're probably willing to listen to be uh coached a little bit, right?
• 20:44
  Mike: So and that's this is this is what help looks like for me.
• 20:47
  Mike: And can you know, are you willing to do that?
• 20:49
  Mike: And so, and I've been helped by just so many uh again, they're angels, and and there are more nice angel-like people on this planet than there are uh the other thing, and it just but again, the uh unfortunately only thing that makes the news are all the uh the out there.
• 21:06
  Taylor: Yeah, very true.
• 21:07
  Taylor: But yeah, I I totally agree.
• 21:09
  Taylor: It's it's very eye-opening when you realize how helpful people are, just no matter who they are.
• 21:16
  Taylor: Like they could be at a gas station, doesn't matter.
• 21:19
  Taylor: But what I found interesting is, and I think it'd be interesting for anyone listening to understand.
• 21:25
  Taylor: Uh when you had said about borrowing a shoulder, I used to do that quite a bit.
• 21:30
  Taylor: And uh I I feel like a lot of people who might listen may not know what exactly what you mean.
• 21:35
  Taylor: So can you explain that?
• 21:38
  Mike: Yeah, so uh in in the blind community, right?
• 21:41
  Mike: Like there's uh there's there's a thing called where people will see like they'll hold on to somebody's uh elbow.
• 21:47
  Mike: For my my help is always to um is to focus or to to grab somebody's shoulder.
• 21:53
  Mike: Just put my fingertips because many times, especially in airports and crowded places.
• 21:59
  Mike: Uh, if you're just beside somebody and you're on the elbow, it's really hard to uh sometimes navigate tight spaces.
• 22:06
  Mike: And so, but if I'm if I'm on their shoulder and I and I literally, this is how I coach people.
• 22:11
  Mike: I'm like saying, hey, this is because they're like, hey, I've never done this before.
• 22:14
  Mike: And I'm like, ah, don't worry about it.
• 22:15
  Mike: I I'll I'll get you through this.
• 22:17
  Mike: And so when I put my hand on their shoulder, I said, when we start to get um, you know, congested, just tell me to get skinny.
• 22:24
  Mike: And what I can do is I can just literally slide over to the other shoulder and walk behind somebody, right?
• 22:30
  Mike: So that way we're able to just uh keep pace and keep moving, not having to say, excuse me, excuse me, you know, all that kind of stuff.
• 22:37
  Mike: So for me, you know, my technique has always been to uh put my hand on somebody's shoulder.
• 22:44
  Mike: And that's that's what you know, uh to help me with navigation.
• 22:47
  Mike: And I quite honestly, I just coach people through it.
• 22:50
  Mike: They get it really quick and they're like, okay, get skinny.
• 22:52
  Mike: And then I I walk behind them, they're like, okay, you're good.
• 22:55
  Mike: And I just go right back to walking beside somebody just with my fingertips on their shoulder.
• 22:59
  Mike: So that's that's what uh uh that's what that means.
• 23:03
  Taylor: That's why I love doing this, especially now talking about blindness, because before I started doing all this stuff and advocating for others, I never really shared that kind of stuff with others.
• 23:15
  Taylor: And so I used to do that quite often.
• 23:17
  Taylor: And so it was very interesting hearing you say that because, like, for example, my sister often would be the one who would guide me.
• 23:25
  Taylor: And when we got to a crowded area, she knew I would need help and she would say, hop on.
• 23:30
  Taylor: And that just meant put my hand on her shoulder.
• 23:32
  Taylor: So it yeah, very interesting that you also experience that.
• 23:37
  Mike: Yeah, and different people have different uh techniques with this.
• 23:41
  Mike: Again, like a lot of, like I said, a lot of people just go right to the elbow.
• 23:45
  Mike: That's not that's not a technique for me.
• 23:47
  Mike: I uh for obvious for especially so much traveling that I do, uh, airports, uh, business offices, that sort of thing, you have to you have to be able to get skinny and um still maneuver at a very quick pace.
• 23:58
  Mike: So um again, there are a lot of techniques that are out there, and for people new to blindness or whatever, uh just realize like there's there's not just one way to be blind.
• 24:09
  Mike: And unfortunately, way too many organizations that are out there are just like, nope, this is the only way to be blind.
• 24:14
  Mike: And I'm like, oh gosh, no.
• 24:16
  Mike: There's so there are so many ways uh to overcome obstacles.
• 24:22
  Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:24
  Taylor: So does uh does your blindness ever affect your mental health?
• 24:29
  Mike: For sure.
• 24:30
  Mike: Uh I tell I'll I'll tell people all the time, like, hey, yeah, this is a um I'm having a dark day, and that has nothing to do with my blindness.
• 24:39
  Mike: Right.
• 24:40
  Mike: Um, because there are there are times that quite honestly, it sucks to be blind.
• 24:44
  Mike: And I have to remind myself, and I'll just be like, oh uh actually, I had a phone call this morning uh with a professional.
• 24:51
  Mike: She's killing it.
• 24:52
  Mike: She doing she was one of our first placement success stories.
• 24:55
  Mike: I mean, 10, 10, 12 years ago, a long time ago.
• 24:57
  Mike: And two, we're just talking about, and she called me up, she's like, I just wanted to share with you, Mike.
• 25:02
  Mike: And and she's out there, she's killing it, and she's like, Ah, sometimes she goes, I just and I needed to bounce this off of you.
• 25:07
  Mike: And and so this it happens all the time.
• 25:10
  Mike: Like, this world was not designed for people with disabilities, it just wasn't.
• 25:14
  Mike: Like, that's all abilities, and there's such a stigma and perception around disability to begin with.
• 25:20
  Mike: And I'm hearing it so much more on so many uh different programs about mental health and taking care of your mental health.
• 25:28
  Mike: I'm so glad that there's we're we're destigmatizing, you know, that as a concept because like it is absolutely okay to have uh a day.
• 25:38
  Mike: Like it's it's okay, but it's also what's important for us to recognize and to realize like, okay, uh, am I having that kind of a day because, you know, have I have I have I gotten enough steps in?
• 25:51
  Mike: Have I gotten enough exercise in?
• 25:53
  Mike: Okay, if you're at a wheelchair, have I what have I done, you know, to make sure that I'm exercising uh my mind, my body, my spirit, uh, my emotions, like, you know, or am I just, you know, am I trying to uh satisfy all of that through ice cream and scrolling on, you know, social media, right?
• 26:12
  Mike: Like we have to, we we have to be more aware of like how quite honestly uh sensitive our mental health condition can be.
• 26:22
  Mike: And are we or are we not taking care of that in all the appropriate ways?
• 26:28
  Taylor: Yeah, so you had mentioned about like being like exercising, whether it be physical exercise or exercising your mind, whatever it may be.
• 26:38
  Taylor: Um, do you have any other coping strategies that are specific to you?
• 26:44
  Mike: Yeah, it it is absolutely hit, it's it's hitting the gym.
• 26:48
  Mike: It's hitting the it's it's it's hitting the exercise for sure.
• 26:52
  Mike: Uh like the science is there, it's proven.
• 26:54
  Mike: Like, you know, uh your like it's it's good for your endorphins, it's good for you know the hormones, it's good for all of that.
• 27:02
  Mike: Um so also, I mean, again, that's that's what's so wonderful about where we are now, and just you know, uh the concepts like forest bathing, being around um nature.
• 27:14
  Mike: Like it just there's there's they're able to prove this scientifically.
• 27:18
  Mike: So even though you even though I'm blind, like I I know when I'm around trees and bushes and and you know, nature and that sort of thing, like right, I can feel it, I can hear it, um all that sort of thing.
• 27:29
  Mike: Like those are again, it's it's it's not it's not difficult, but it's always intentional.
• 27:35
  Mike: Like we have to intentionally take care of ourselves.
• 27:38
  Mike: And um, that's why like when I when I when I don't call like my my family health and equity values, values are just something you throw up on your website and you occasionally talk about, but virtues are something that you live every day.
• 27:52
  Mike: And and and so to me, you like everyday meaning like for health and health, you know, again, it's it's it's mental, it's emotional, it's physical, like it is all of that.
• 28:04
  Mike: And so you have to be intentional every single day, taking care of yourself to be the best version.
• 28:09
  Mike: And even when you're doing that, like there's it's again this world not fair, but life, no, no, I never never signed I never signed a document that said my life was gonna be fair, but there are there are so many times where it's just like it just I mean the world has kicked me in the ass, and it's it's hard not to be like, ugh, this would be so much easier if yeah, fully agree.
• 28:36
  Taylor: Do you think it's helpful having like as you said, like you you work or like you work at Blind Institute for Technology and you work with a lot of people with disabilities, including blindness?
• 28:47
  Taylor: Does having that community help, whether it's for mental health or in any other way?
• 28:56
  Mike: The call I got this morning from uh this amazing woman who's absolutely killing it out there, and uh disability can be awfully isolating.
• 29:05
  Mike: I mean, you could feel so isolated as a person with a disability.
• 29:09
  Mike: You just can.
• 29:09
  Mike: And so um I like to call you know the the the not only the internal team members, but the career seekers that come to BIT as as a family.
• 29:19
  Mike: So I call it the BIT family, and it goes right with my virtues, right?
• 29:23
  Mike: You know, family health and equity, like everything I I like to do is create more of that family environment.
• 29:29
  Mike: And yes, we put the fun and dysfunction, uh, like so many families out there, but we we've got this team where we have profoundly deaf people working side by side people who are completely blind, working side by side people, team members who uh live with bipolarism or anxiety disorders or neurodiverse um or all of them, right?
• 29:50
  Mike: Like this is that's a thing.
• 29:51
  Mike: Like we're we're not just a you know, just like oh, I'm I'm I'm blind, I'm not neurodiverse.
• 29:57
  Mike: Like, no, guess what?
• 29:58
  Mike: Like we the you can have multiple disabilities, right?
• 30:01
  Mike: Like, so um, because it's like you know, living in the United States, uh one of my first phone calls uh today was with a group out of the UK, like you know, like UK, UK, United States, like it is difficult to be disabled, but at least there's some massive legislation to really help us.
• 30:18
  Mike: Uh, I talk to people across the globe where they've got nothing.
• 30:22
  Mike: There's no there's no legislative help.
• 30:24
  Mike: There's no, I mean, it is so it's it's hard to be blind here in the United States, and I promise you, it's infinitely harder to be blind in other places in the world.
• 30:34
  Taylor: That was a really interesting point.
• 30:36
  Taylor: So, do you have any advice for anyone who's looking to get more involved in a community with similar-minded people and who may have a similar disability?
• 30:46
  Taylor: Say I'm looking to get more involved in the blind community.
• 30:50
  Taylor: Would you have any advice for me?
• 30:53
  Mike: Uh, like so when I when I was first kicking off BIT, you know, 13, 14 years ago to really understand uh like all the different organizations, like so here in Colorado, but it's not it's not just Colorado, but Colorado has a ton of uh ski resorts, right?
• 31:09
  Mike: And every ski resort, I promise you, has a program for uh the disabled.
• 31:14
  Mike: And so like I was going and and talking to the program leaders of these organizations.
• 31:19
  Mike: I was uh interviewing other organizations, uh organizational leaders.
• 31:24
  Mike: Like every state has multiple organizations.
• 31:27
  Mike: Like there's the there's the great big national organizations, everybody knows of them.
• 31:30
  Mike: But each one of those national organizations, a lot of times they'll have a state organization or state entity.
• 31:36
  Mike: And so it's just it's just being curious.
• 31:39
  Mike: It's going out there and doing some research, and then quite honestly, it's it's uh sending an email, it's picking up the phone, uh, very much of the ilk where I like I I wanna I want to shake hands.
• 31:51
  Mike: I want to I want to get out there and and talk to folks.
• 31:54
  Mike: Um so uh I'm not gonna Google stock people and find out about their LinkedIn profile.
• 31:59
  Mike: Quite honestly, I'm just like, uh, whatever, that's all marketing.
• 32:01
  Mike: I want to find out what people sound like, what they what they really believe in, all that kind of stuff.
• 32:05
  Mike: So to me, go out there and interview these organizations and you know, let them, you know, like your time is very valuable.
• 32:12
  Mike: And, you know, you shouldn't just go out there and help an organization because, like, well, I'm blind and they're blind.
• 32:17
  Mike: No, no, no.
• 32:18
  Mike: Like you meet with them, find out if the you know, their values, and quite honestly, if the organizational leaders of these organizations, if their values align with your values.
• 32:28
  Mike: So I'm very intentional with that, um, with where I put my time and effort.
• 32:33
  Mike: And so I just my recommendation to anybody else is to value your time and your effort the same way and make sure like you don't just sign up because, like, oh, well, I'm blind and they're blind, so therefore we're we're good.
• 32:45
  Mike: Um, you'd be amazed at how many organizations that are out there that probably don't have the same values as you do.
• 32:51
  Taylor: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 32:52
  Taylor: And that's very helpful for anyone who's interested in that.
• 32:55
  Taylor: And so you had said about going out, like how you travel a lot.
• 32:59
  Taylor: So whenever you're you're traveling, like say at a conference, like what are some things you wish people knew on how to best interact with you?
• 33:09
  Mike: Well, the so when I'm when I'm out there traveling, uh like you know, uh conferences and such, like I always have the golden hoodie on.
• 33:17
  Mike: And the golden hoodie was an award, it was a trailblazer award giving to given to me uh from our partners at Salesforce.
• 33:24
  Mike: So it's a highly coveted, and when I say golden, it is legit gold.
• 33:28
  Mike: And so it sticks out.
• 33:30
  Mike: And so that that between my cane and the golden hoodie, you know, people are a lot of times very intrigued.
• 33:37
  Mike: Um, and so it uh and I and I do it very much for that to, you know, kind of like, you know, be like, hey, I'm really intimidated to talk to a blind person, but I'm really curious about that gold jacket.
• 33:47
  Mike: Like, tell me, you know, so it's uh so uh so when I'm out traveling, like I use that very much as conversation starters, you know, let people know like why we're you know uh the official training provider for Salesforce Globally and just how accessible that platform is.
• 34:02
  Mike: So the environments that I go to pervasively is just it's always in professional environments.
• 34:08
  Mike: Like I go and I'm many times, like I'll be uh speaking again at South by Southwest in in March.
• 34:14
  Mike: Like I I rarely go to the disability-oriented conferences.
• 34:17
  Mike: Like I get hired on, you know, uh, you know, large, large enterprises will hire me to come and go to their things and speak at their things.
• 34:26
  Mike: And so so many I you know spoke spoke at Google Next and in Salesforce's Dreamforce numerous times.
• 34:32
  Mike: Like I just so I go to very large commercial, you know, conferences and I leverage, you know, the kind of the cane and the golden hoodie to open up conversations for me.
• 34:43
  Taylor: Nice.
• 34:43
  Taylor: Yeah, I I like that and that idea of the gold hoodie.
• 34:47
  Taylor: Uh, because for me, um what I do, I do something a little similar.
• 34:51
  Taylor: I wear what's called a sunflower badge.
• 34:54
  Taylor: Have you heard of those?
• 34:55
  Mike: I have.
• 34:55
  Mike: No, I think it's uh I think it's great.
• 34:57
  Mike: The uh the lot of organizations, uh like airports and such, they're they're adopting this and they're making you know uh team members aware of that.
• 35:07
  Mike: I think it's you know, for for folks to kind of opt in or choose in for a visual representation of a disability.
• 35:15
  Mike: And again, it doesn't have to be uh sensory, right?
• 35:18
  Mike: You know, blindness or deafness or you know, wheelchair, like it could be uh, you know, mental health, it could be neurodiverse, it could be a lot of, you know, so I I love the universal ubiquitous symbol of um identifying.
• 35:33
  Taylor: Yes, I fully agree, especially if it sends around like 70 to 80 percent of disabilities are hidden so you can never assume what someone's what someone's experiencing.
• 35:44
  Taylor: So anything like that, I was love supporting and trying to and when you make it known that you're open to talk about it, you can help someone help someone later on down the road.
• 35:56
  Mike: Uh totally agree.
• 35:58
  Taylor: So can you walk us through like a typical day for you?
• 36:02
  Mike: Oh, the boring life of my cast.
• 36:04
  Mike: You know what's what's fun about what I get to do, quite honestly, Taylor, is I get I I get to talk to you know leaders and individuals, uh like all sorts of different kinds of companies, uh large and small companies uh all over the globe, which is a lot of fun.
• 36:19
  Mike: Uh on the flip side, so like I I probably probably 20 to 30 percent of my week I'm um having new conversations with people with disabilities across the globe.
• 36:31
  Mike: I mean, yeah, I I mean yesterday, I mean, uh literally from uh you know Egypt to you know Pakistan to uh India to like it just it just it's fun.
• 36:41
  Mike: I get to I get to talk to people with disabilities from all over the globe.
• 36:44
  Mike: And that it's it I love that.
• 36:46
  Mike: I love hearing because regardless of the social, uh political, the the cultural, the religious uh orientation, like we're look regardless of any of that, what what we have in common and what transcends all of those differences is our lived experience with disability.
• 37:02
  Mike: And I and I just absolutely love I love that.
• 37:05
  Mike: And uh so as CEO of BIT, like I still take uh these what I call we we call the initial interviews.
• 37:13
  Mike: If if somebody's looking for you know training that leads to you know tech employment, like that's that's what we're known for.
• 37:19
  Mike: And so for anybody who's interested, they click on the link out on our website, become a career seeker.
• 37:24
  Mike: Well, the very first step is they talk to me.
• 37:28
  Mike: And I still don't conduct you know 90, 95% of those initial interviews because ultimately I work for them.
• 37:34
  Mike: And I and I love that.
• 37:36
  Mike: And I so 20, 25% of my week is is always there.
• 37:40
  Mike: It's talking to new people across the globe.
• 37:42
  Mike: Um, but then I'm also talking to organizational leaders.
• 37:46
  Mike: And it's it's so it's it's fun.
• 37:48
  Mike: The uh it's all the same.
• 37:51
  Mike: Like, like I work for people with disabilities and I I help organizations tap into what I consider the greatest untapped human potential on the planet, which are people with disabilities.
• 38:01
  Mike: So everything I do is is centered around that.
• 38:04
  Mike: Um, but I'm always I'm always up early.
• 38:07
  Mike: Uh I'm uh I'm an I'm an early bird.
• 38:10
  Mike: I I get up and I I I I find a uh a piece of carpet on the floor and I I stretch out uh religiously, routinely.
• 38:19
  Mike: Uh 13 out of every 14 days, I'm on the floor and I'm stretching and keeping myself uh as healthy as possible.
• 38:26
  Mike: I work out, uh, we'll call it four to five times a week.
• 38:29
  Mike: You know, like I'll be at a conference all day tomorrow and most of Friday, you know.
• 38:34
  Mike: So I just um so many of my weeks look like that.
• 38:38
  Mike: I'm at another conference uh next week.
• 38:41
  Mike: Um, you know, so it's everything that I do is in around just getting the word out there to people with disabilities and organizations regarding people with disabilities.
• 38:50
  Taylor: Nice.
• 38:51
  Taylor: That's pretty cool.
• 38:52
  Taylor: So as well, or I as well go to quite a bit of conferences, and I'm curious what are some things at the conferences?
• 39:00
  Taylor: Like for me, like the expo hall can be a bit challenging to navigate and things like that.
• 39:07
  Taylor: So are there any accessibility things that could be improved at those in-person conferences?
• 39:13
  Mike: Well, of course.
• 39:14
  Mike: Uh the most, and I again I've been to the biggest conferences out there.
• 39:18
  Mike: Um, even the disability-oriented uh conferences, they are uh an accessibility, you know, fiasco at most of them, challenges for the the the rest of them.
• 39:29
  Mike: But they're my job isn't to like go out there and you know go to the conference and be like, oh, you guys, and I've again I'm from CES, the big the biggest conferences in the world.
• 39:38
  Mike: They're they're not great.
• 39:40
  Mike: They're just they're just not great.
• 39:42
  Mike: But at the end of the day, like I'm not going to those conferences for me to try to educate them.
• 39:47
  Mike: That's not what we're in the business for.
• 39:48
  Mike: Um, these organizations aren't coming to me saying, hey, how should we make your experience more accessible?
• 39:53
  Mike: Like I that's not why I'm there.
• 39:55
  Mike: Like I'm typically there uh for to uh shake hands, uh kiss babies.
• 40:01
  Mike: Like it's very salesy oriented.
• 40:04
  Mike: Um, you know, like I'm always very strategic.
• 40:06
  Mike: I'm not the kind of person that just starts to meander through the expo hall.
• 40:10
  Mike: It is rare that I um that I just it's be because of the accessibility challenges.
• 40:16
  Mike: It just, it just, and a lot of times in those places and spaces, uh not only am I blind, but because of the volume in that place is I'm now blind and deaf or partially deaf.
• 40:26
  Mike: Like it's so like to have a really uh good conversation with a potential, you know, employer or leader, like that's not always the best place for me in my experience to find those leaders, you know, that were what we would call our ICP or Ideal Customer Profile.
• 40:44
  Mike: That's not why I'm there.
• 40:45
  Mike: Many times um, you know, I'm at these conferences because I'm a speaker, right?
• 40:50
  Mike: And so because I'm a speaker, I actually have a lot of people that come to me because I'm I'm damn entertaining on stage.
• 40:57
  Mike: And so therefore people come to me afterwards.
• 40:59
  Mike: So so that's uh kind of the strategy for us is like, you know, how do we go to these conferences?
• 41:04
  Mike: But we've got content to share on stage, so therefore we bring people to us.
• 41:11
  Taylor: That's very interesting because I mean, I'm I'm a bit on the flip side on there, because I'll I'll just go into the expo hall and just walk around until I hear my name.
• 41:21
  Taylor: And it it it can be uh sort of a sensory overload, like you were saying, being blind and partially deaf can can be a bit overwhelming.
• 41:31
  Taylor: Um, but also I just I've for me personally, I I like the challenge every now and then.
• 41:36
  Taylor: It can certainly drain you once once the week's over and you're heading home.
• 41:41
  Taylor: It's for me at least, it's just nice to have that that challenge and see if I can do effective networking while trying to navigate an unfamiliar area.
• 41:52
  Mike: Yeah, good for you.
• 41:53
  Mike: It uh yeah, the sensory overload, but then uh I I find then I also my anxiety starts to get driven up because I'm I'm around, you know, so many people.
• 42:05
  Mike: And it just like I I do it it um and I've done it before.
• 42:09
  Mike: I have.
• 42:10
  Mike: It just it's just not my that's not my jam typically, but uh um I I have had to do it uh with varying degrees of success.
• 42:19
  Mike: So uh good on you for just uh diving into that challenge though.
• 42:24
  Taylor: Well, thank you.
• 42:25
  Taylor: And it it took some time to gain that confidence to do it, certainly.
• 42:30
  Taylor: How do you feel like blindness is well represented in media?
• 42:36
  Mike: No, no, no.
• 42:37
  Mike: Uh disability is not well represented in media.
• 42:41
  Mike: Disability isn't like in, you know, like we could talk about like from a statistic perspective, the the number of leaders, Fortune 500 leaders who identify as female, right?
• 42:52
  Mike: Only 4%, uh it's it's less than 5%, I are women of color, right?
• 42:58
  Mike: So we can talk about lack of representation.
• 43:01
  Mike: But then if you if you look for people who are blind in leadership roles in the Fortune 500, like again, we're talking about tokenism.
• 43:09
  Mike: We're not talking about percentages, we're talking about tokenism.
• 43:12
  Mike: So, and that's whether that's media, whether that's you know, business, like like disability, not not just blindness, but I mean dis disability is not, I mean, we're talking about tokenism efforts at best.
• 43:25
  Mike: That's why BIT exists.
• 43:28
  Taylor: That's very interesting.
• 43:29
  Taylor: And I I fully agree.
• 43:30
  Taylor: I I don't think disability as a whole is well representative, whether it's uh feeding into stereotypes and like TV shows and movies or whatever it may be.
• 43:42
  Taylor: So it's and it's nice occasionally to see a representation that's more accurate, but it's there tend to be more few and far between.
• 43:54
  Mike: Yeah, I think uh what was that um World War II, that French French uh the young lady who uh yeah she was she was actually legally blind uh it was a it was a way recent series uh like she got all kinds of acclaim for it i watched the first episode or two is either had to have been netflix and uh yeah she i think she might have actually won an award for her performance even so um but again that's and it made news you know it came across my desk just because it happens so infrequently you know most most times that you know people with disabilities and especially the blind low vision community which just pisses me off is like they're they're making the news for some you know inspirational porn like oh look i i i climbed a hill and did 10 pushups like i don't give a like that that kind of stuff just pisses me off because it's just like you know we're not gonna be able to inspire organizations to hire right and and again it that's fine if that's the only way that you're able to make money is to you know go out there and do this inspirational porn stuff but quite honestly i it it disgusts me yeah i i fully fully agree with that uh because i feel like the more we encourage that kind of behavior the more it's feeding into like the charity model of distance no it totally is it totally is right yeah they built their brand on just like oh look at me how inspirational I am like whatever so yeah and there and there's nothing wrong with sharing what your life was like but like using it as like fodder for your content and like like you're saying the inspiration pour inside of it it's just it's it's it hurts to see that kind of stuff happen.
• 45:36
  Mike: It it does for me anyway it does for for me I just uh you know and again what whatever it takes for people that they feel like that's how they can earn a nickel fine you go earn your nickel like it just I yeah again you find find the tribe find the family that fits more of your values and you know you interview people don't just hang out with people because they're blind right so um but it was uh yeah Taylor I this was a true pleasure to hang out with you uh today so really really appreciate this opportunity and thank you for thinking about me when you're putting together this uh the series my friend.
• 46:11
  Taylor: Yeah absolutely thank you all so much for for joining and thank you to anyone who's listening and hope you enjoyed and hope to see you next time for another episode of Day in the Life.
• 46:23
  Mike: Sounds good thanks.
• 46:23
  Mike: Taylor bye everyone.
• 46:26
  Mike: Thank you all for joining us while we explore accessibility and disability if you enjoyed this podcast check out more episodes and show notes at accessiblecommunity.org slash podcasts.
• 46:41
  Mike: Remember , be accessible, be inclusive.